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It's when belarus is called byelorussia (white russia) rathen than Belarus. :) Russia called Belarus properly in 1990s, and recently (last 10 years) started to call Byelorussia again. 12:31:15 <Wolf01> I shit on pasta with ketchup 12:31:23 *** supermop has quit IRC 12:31:53 <Wolf01> https://img-9gag-fun.9cache.com/photo/aYxeLZw_700b.jpg Ha! Not a single american in US! 12:50:17 *** matt11235 has joined #openttd 13:24:03 *** chomwitt has joined #openttd 13:24:07 <Wolf01> https://xkcd.com/1799/ 13:34:05 *** supermop_ has joined #openttd 13:39:18 *** supermop__ has quit IRC 13:41:23 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 13:48:44 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 13:56:00 *** supermop has joined #openttd 14:01:24 *** Arveen2 has joined #openttd 14:06:31 *** Arveen has quit IRC 14:37:40 <supermop_> yo 14:37:41 *** tycoondemon2 has quit IRC 15:01:28 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 15:10:18 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 15:10:50 *** tokai has quit IRC 15:14:33 *** tokai has joined #openttd 15:14:34 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 15:29:05 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 15:46:02 *** Sova has quit IRC 16:01:16 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 16:01:16 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 16:01:24 <Alberth> hi hi 16:04:53 <Wolf01> o/ 16:05:27 <crem> \o 16:09:20 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 16:19:45 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 16:21:35 <Wolf01> Quak 16:22:00 <frosch123> moi 16:38:15 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 16:39:52 *** Eddi|zuHause has joined #openttd 16:42:31 *** maciozo has joined #openttd 16:45:12 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd 16:51:09 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 16:57:58 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 17:07:50 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:08:53 *** smoke_fumus has quit IRC 17:09:03 <andythenorth> o/ 17:23:33 <Alberth> o/ 17:24:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: for industry creation during game, did you try anything like ‘just build 1 new industry per year’? 17:24:58 <andythenorth> i.e. increasing beyond the quota 17:30:16 <Alberth> in openttd source code? 17:30:36 <andythenorth> yes 17:30:50 <Alberth> iirc it's smaller, 5 / decade, except a more weird number than 5 17:31:20 <andythenorth> most of my games are 20-30 years, with no closures 17:31:20 <Alberth> it can be smaller, if industries die a lot, it stop adding new industries 17:31:32 <andythenorth> and very very rarely do I see an industry added to the map 17:32:00 <andythenorth> one route would be to fix it in GS 17:32:06 <andythenorth> but I don’t think that’s quite right 17:32:25 <Alberth> what do you want to fix? 17:32:52 <Alberth> 350t iron ore / month :o so much 17:33:14 *** orudge` has quit IRC 17:33:26 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 17:33:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 17:34:29 <Alberth> (380, 400) -> (115, 280) that's pretty much half the map, at 88km/h :p 17:41:31 <Alberth> andythenorth: line 2095 industry_cmd.cpp 17:41:31 <Alberth> static const int NEWINDS_PER_MONTH = 0x38000 / (10 * 12); // lower 16 bits is a float fraction, 3.5 industries per decade, divided by 10 * 12 months. 17:41:40 <Alberth> per 256x256 17:43:04 <Wolf01> Bah... I'm using stud.io to build an airport with a friend... that software has too many bugs and inconsistencies that make it a pain to use :( 17:47:54 *** glx has joined #openttd 17:47:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:49:54 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 17:51:48 <andythenorth> 3.5 eh 17:51:56 <andythenorth> that chimes with my experience 17:52:09 <andythenorth> I usually play 256x256 or so 17:52:19 * andythenorth probably has very different game to ‘most people’ :) 17:55:43 <andythenorth> what was the ‘half the map’ thing? o_O 18:10:59 *** orudge` has quit IRC 18:11:26 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 18:11:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 18:15:07 <Alberth> andythenorth: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/steeltown2b.png 18:15:34 <Alberth> 350 t/month iron ore, in 1905, IH 18:15:42 <andythenorth> big goals 18:15:48 * andythenorth has a smaller map :P 18:15:56 <Alberth> you made the mine :p 18:16:08 <andythenorth> yeah, I needed more iron ore 18:16:14 <Alberth> :D 18:16:16 <andythenorth> is that the default (1x) production? 18:16:20 <Alberth> yes 18:16:36 <andythenorth> that’s the upper end of the range 18:16:43 <andythenorth> 160t is more common :) 18:18:00 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/thomson_co_1905_04_18.sav 18:18:25 <Alberth> hmm, the other two are 90 and 135 t/m 18:18:49 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 18:18:55 <andythenorth> the random range might be too wide 18:18:56 <andythenorth> not sure 18:19:05 <Alberth> I didn't check the amounts, but by the time I was finished adding trains, all trains of the first one had already left :) 18:19:30 <Alberth> oh, it's fun :) 18:19:41 <Alberth> filled tracks with long trains 18:19:59 <andythenorth> it would not be a good choice with IH Antelope 18:20:05 <andythenorth> which has small capacity, long wagons :P 18:20:09 <andythenorth> very very long trains :P 18:20:42 <Alberth> the track to the far left does something similar, although production is more sane 18:20:58 <Alberth> I don't have Antelope, is that a new engine? 18:21:09 <Alberth> or a newer version perhaps 18:21:30 <Alberth> IH 1.9.1 18:21:46 <andythenorth> it’s not in the released versions 18:21:50 <andythenorth> very WIP 18:22:01 <andythenorth> so many unfinished things :) 18:22:12 <Alberth> big bertha is quite useless, nice horsepower but not fast enough at this distance 18:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't big bertha a cannon? 18:22:43 <Alberth> no, it's an engine 18:23:31 <Eddi|zuHause> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dicke_Bertha 18:24:29 <andythenorth> it’s also a cannon 18:24:45 <andythenorth> ‘also’ due to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MR_0-10-0_Lickey_Banker 18:25:39 <andythenorth> I am going to rebalance IH, I am playing a test version right now 18:25:49 <andythenorth> freight trains are seriously too fast :) 18:35:44 <supermop_> i very quickly seem to go from 6 tile freight is too long, to not nearly big enough 18:36:02 <supermop_> but line capacity won't allow much bigger than 7 or 8 18:36:43 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 18:38:01 <andythenorth> I have same 18:38:11 <andythenorth> start with TL6, then 8, 10 or 12 18:38:16 <andythenorth> and more platforms 18:38:21 <andythenorth> network is overwhelmed fast 18:39:58 <supermop_> nice looking junctions have trouble handling the stream of 8TL freights coming through every 10 days 18:39:59 <andythenorth> I should make an IH roster with 40, 70, 100t wagons 18:40:09 <andythenorth> at max 8/8 lengths :P 18:40:14 <supermop_> hampers mixed use lines a bit 18:40:39 * andythenorth doesn’t even have any :P 18:40:55 <andythenorth> I have started a new SV, and have built the main spine route with canals instead 18:41:05 <andythenorth> which is weird and lame, but I’ll never get gold otherwise 18:41:59 *** orudge` has quit IRC 18:42:24 <supermop_> i still keep trying to run passengers and freight on the same double tack as long as i can 18:42:26 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 18:42:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 18:43:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that always results in me only focusing on passengers and neglecting freight 18:44:25 <supermop_> need night time 18:46:35 <supermop_> andy, this code you gave me, i can just adapt into a regular nml file, right? 18:46:54 <supermop_> i don't necessarily need to do any python magic to it 18:51:14 <supermop_> hmm what to call the harbor roadways? 18:51:36 <supermop_> cobble road or roadway sounds like a regular road or street 18:51:50 *** orudge` has quit IRC 18:52:03 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 18:52:03 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 18:52:33 <supermop_> does 'driveway' make sense? 18:55:06 <Alberth> andy: I wouldn't know if freight trains are too fast, it's all I do :) 19:02:47 <andythenorth> it causes balancing issues 19:03:05 <andythenorth> if the basic idea is that there are fast pax engines and slower more powerful freight engines.... 19:03:17 <andythenorth> when they are too similar, it introduces a boring choice 19:03:29 <andythenorth> I am attempting to be the enemy of boring choices :) 19:04:14 <andythenorth> supermop: you’ll need a grf header block, but that RH code is vanilla nml yes, no python in it 19:04:35 <andythenorth> I copied it from the nml example grf for NRT :) 19:22:59 <andythenorth> hmm 19:23:09 <andythenorth> when would ottd _ideally_ build new industries? 19:25:42 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 19:26:04 *** ConductCat has quit IRC 19:29:16 <Alberth> when you need them 19:29:32 <andythenorth> that heuristic is hard to manage :) 19:29:59 <Alberth> depends, you can check what industries you play with, and where 19:30:21 <Alberth> you can check how you connect industries 19:30:42 <Alberth> there should be a lot of information in what you do in the game, I think 19:30:59 <Alberth> but I agree it's not trivial to find information 19:31:14 <supermop_> 'yard' instead of 'roadway'? 19:31:31 <Alberth> another point is of course, if you connect only coal mines, should the game supply you with even more? 19:31:50 <Alberth> ie how is that balanced wrt newgrf author wishes? 19:32:13 <Alberth> for me, a yard is a weird unit of length, or a garden :p 19:32:33 <andythenorth> heuristics are hard :) 19:32:47 <andythenorth> maybe you didn’t connect any coal mines because they’re all in the wrong place 19:32:51 <supermop_> Alberth: what if trucks are driving around on your garden? 19:32:53 <andythenorth> so maybe you really want a coal mine 19:33:26 <Alberth> could be, in theory you can analyze that too 19:33:30 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 19:33:39 <Alberth> along with speed of trains, the terrain etc etc 19:34:10 <Alberth> supermop_: I'd like to see them do that, as I have no such thing :) 19:35:53 <Alberth> but you're asking about USA names and we have very little clue about meaning of USA names, mostly 19:36:37 <Alberth> andy, but if you specify some sort of preferences, it could work from that 19:37:23 <supermop_> any sort of name at all. 19:37:54 <supermop_> like what to call the big paved part of a port where trucks and forklifts drive around 19:38:20 <andythenorth> Alberth: although I am -1 to settings generally, seems like control over industry construction (and maybe closure) might be an openttd thing 19:38:27 <andythenorth> it’s not a case that newgrf can solve 19:38:36 <supermop_> 'paved road' sounds like a road 19:38:53 <supermop_> 'pavement' sounds like, not a road 19:38:54 <andythenorth> it’s a very highly specific thing for GS to solve, and a distortion of GS as a goals framework 19:39:05 <supermop_> so user might not understand 19:39:38 <andythenorth> Close industries: “never” | “random chance if unserviced for x years” 19:40:22 <andythenorth> Open industries: “never” | “random chance every x years (favour highly served types)” | “random chance every x years (favour under-served types)" 19:40:24 <andythenorth> dunno 19:54:49 <Alberth> I agree newgrf can't solve it, it doesn't have enough knowledge, or coding it is too complicated 19:55:03 <Alberth> so openttd or a GS would be better 19:55:27 <Alberth> I also believe openttd is in a much better position to request closure 19:55:43 <Alberth> but euhm, somebody blocked that in the newgrf spec :p 19:56:02 <Alberth> until we make an extension on the extension, or something 19:57:20 <Alberth> I don't think people have much trouble with opening, that is, until you open too many, I guess 19:57:34 <Alberth> but people do not like closing 19:57:50 <Alberth> likely they don't serve the industry well enough 19:58:35 <Alberth> I had the problem a few times that I was setting up a connection, and it died on me, yep it happens, generally not a big deal, unless it's very early in the game 19:58:36 <andythenorth> a newgrf major version bump would be a reason to remove closure control from newgrf :P 19:58:48 <andythenorth> newgrf doesn’t need to forbid closure 19:59:04 <andythenorth> oh, eh, there are people who want to force closure in newgrf though :( 19:59:17 <Alberth> afaik, newgrf has the final word 19:59:24 <andythenorth> it does 19:59:28 <andythenorth> addon specs are a minefield 19:59:32 <andythenorth> ‘here be dragons' 19:59:35 <andythenorth> never write an API :P 19:59:54 <Alberth> some people think you can solve global problems in a local way, and get a good result :( 20:00:33 <Alberth> or they are afraid players may play in a different way than they do, or so 20:00:34 <andythenorth> ‘forbid closure’ would have looked like a logical option for the cb at the time it was written 20:00:45 <andythenorth> it’s hard to design a future proof API :) 20:00:55 <Alberth> yes, don't try it 20:01:28 <Alberth> instead make it possible to remove the api when it has fulfilled its evolutionary role 20:02:35 <andythenorth> does a version bump do that? 20:02:43 <Alberth> hmm, can't we add a lower/upper version to each api, just like the data saved in a savegame has a lower and upper version number where it is valid 20:02:44 <andythenorth> old grfs carry on working as expected :P 20:03:08 <andythenorth> it add conditional jank in openttd though eh? 20:03:18 <andythenorth> if grfversion > 8 (stuff) or so :) 20:03:26 <Alberth> hmm, rewrite old newgrf to new standard :p 20:03:35 <Alberth> yeah, it explodes somewhat 20:03:47 <Alberth> but game version conversion does that too 20:04:20 <supermop_> what if i try to drive a trolleybus on ROAD+ELRL? 20:04:41 <andythenorth> no dice 20:04:44 <supermop_> it isn't specifically ELRD 20:04:55 <andythenorth> what compatibility have you set? 20:05:10 <andythenorth> if ELRL is a tramtype label, it’s literally ignored for the road vehicle and vice versa 20:05:15 <supermop_> i guess thats realistic bc trolleybus need two trolleywires 20:05:43 <andythenorth> realism or not, connecting the labels for the two route types together is a fast trolleyride to madness :) 20:06:00 <supermop_> setting electric road types to be powered on each other but not electric tram types 20:06:03 <Alberth> ha, pig iron has different colour in different wagons, I see 20:06:25 <supermop_> Alberth: gets rusty faster in some wagons? 20:06:53 *** Gja has joined #openttd 20:07:07 <Alberth> only if rusty pig iron is more white-ish :) 20:07:11 <andythenorth> that might be an accident :) 20:07:28 <andythenorth> I haven’t really supported it yet 20:07:30 *** ZirconiumX has quit IRC 20:08:48 <Alberth> http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/pig_iron_colours.png 20:09:05 <Alberth> oh, it's fine, just unexpected 20:09:22 <andythenorth> default (fallback) cargo sprites 20:09:27 <andythenorth> boxes + tarpaulins 20:09:27 <Alberth> variation in shape and colour is always nice 20:10:03 <Alberth> 1.9.1 is also pre steeltown, probably 20:10:16 <Alberth> no wonder it doesn't know about it :) 20:10:43 <andythenorth> yup 20:14:04 * andythenorth builds canals such https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Lawrence_Seaway 20:16:35 <Alberth> 225m, that's long :) 20:16:58 <Alberth> works at a smaller map 20:20:56 <andythenorth> ach, these square cornered canals :) 20:21:00 <andythenorth> ugly 20:22:09 <Alberth> didn't planet maker have better canal sprites? 20:22:20 <Alberth> or were they river sprites perhaps? 20:23:09 <Alberth> but indeed, we're quite stuck with the grid world 20:27:49 <Alberth> bleh, train moving uphill @ 2km/h :( 20:28:08 <Wolf01> Add more engines :P 20:30:42 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 20:33:20 <andythenorth> there is opengfx water features 20:33:24 <andythenorth> better canals, worse rivers :) 20:35:11 <Alberth> I know it needs more engines 20:35:31 <Alberth> more powerful horses wouldbe simpler :p 20:36:58 <Alberth> but at least it explains why my cargo isn't being moved :) 20:37:35 <andythenorth> what do you have for freight weight multiplier setting? o_O 20:37:36 *** ConductorCat has joined #openttd 20:37:55 <Alberth> apparently, andy has heavy goods, unlike default goods :) 20:38:16 <Alberth> 6 20:38:35 <andythenorth> ha 20:38:45 <andythenorth> that used to be a recommended default with NARS and such 20:38:57 <andythenorth> I have 1 :) 20:39:10 <andythenorth> I should put that in the docs :P 20:39:14 <Alberth> ah, 6x as long trains :p 20:39:50 <Alberth> "author plays with freight multiplier 1, you must do the same" :) 20:41:00 <Alberth> oh, 4-4-2 is reliable now, could use that one instead 20:41:03 <andythenorth> “author tests with 1” :P 20:41:14 <Alberth> :) 20:41:24 <andythenorth> tbh, the TE and HP are already about twice reality 20:41:44 <andythenorth> the 6 setting was the advice for American train sets where people want 5 or 6 engines on a train 20:42:00 <Alberth> hmm, less TE, not good 20:42:33 <Alberth> yeah, 6 is just sort of random 20:42:35 <andythenorth> what year are you in? 20:42:46 <Alberth> no special purpose of ideas behind it 20:42:54 <Alberth> 1909 20:43:25 <andythenorth> there should be an Aberdare, 2 of those are usually quite good 20:43:27 <Alberth> 2-6-0 exists too, but only 85% 20:43:47 <andythenorth> does reliability increase if you run more instances of the train? 20:44:15 * andythenorth can’t remember 20:44:24 <Alberth> no, but it goes up in time, and then down again 20:44:38 <andythenorth> I projected a non-existent cause 20:44:39 <andythenorth> :P 20:44:40 <Alberth> at first it was around 64%, which is horrible 20:44:45 <andythenorth> been years since I had breakdowns on 20:46:24 <Alberth> it's faster and slightly more powerful, a bit of reliability reduction likely won't be that bad 20:50:00 <Alberth> slag transport is a mess, can't keep up with the new iron ore production raise :) 21:00:39 <andythenorth> nope 21:00:56 <andythenorth> it’s over-produced, the ratio is 50:50 21:01:02 <andythenorth> should be more like 75:25 21:01:08 <andythenorth> needs new FIRS code 21:02:39 <Alberth> oh, any amount is good, just needs more trains :p 21:02:55 <Alberth> and a more dedicated line for it 21:05:03 <andythenorth> ships :) 21:09:23 <Alberth> nah, less fun :) 21:09:42 <Alberth> I like restructuring railway tracks to smoothen traffic 21:10:14 <andythenorth> maybe I should stop using SV for a bit 21:10:24 <andythenorth> it creates focus on ‘win’ :) 21:10:53 <Alberth> big ore mines, and over-production of slag is good, it causes chaos in the network that needs to be fixed 21:11:34 <Alberth> default industries are a bit better at that, as their production rises :p 21:13:52 <supermop_> sprites start at the top left, right? 21:14:02 <andythenorth> yes 21:15:56 *** orudge` has quit IRC 21:16:42 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 21:16:43 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 21:20:10 <andythenorth> am I the only irritated by train lengths that are not x.0? 21:21:38 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:23:36 * andythenorth ponders making all wagons 4/8 and 8/8 21:24:41 <supermop_> wait - its the x,y of the first pixel in the sprite, or how many pixels it is from the origin? 21:25:14 <supermop_> like if there is 10px whitespace from the edges, it would be 11,11 right? 21:25:21 <supermop_> andythenorth: yes a little 21:25:47 <supermop_> non integer trains look better but are annoying 21:26:09 <andythenorth> supermop_: zero-indexd, so 10,10 if it’s 10px whitespace 21:26:11 <andythenorth> also bed 21:26:19 <supermop_> ok 21:26:20 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:26:22 <supermop_> later 21:33:25 <Alberth> nn 21:34:07 *** Alberth has left #openttd 21:35:58 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 21:43:58 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 21:44:23 *** andythenorth has left #openttd 21:46:33 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:54:20 *** matt11235 has quit IRC 23:00:31 <supermop_> why are there junction underlays templated for in bridge surfaces? 23:02:44 *** Long_yanG has quit IRC 23:04:13 *** maciozo has quit IRC 23:08:49 *** LongyanG has joined #openttd 23:10:34 *** Gja has quit IRC 23:10:54 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 23:11:57 *** JezK has joined #openttd 23:14:19 <Wolf01> <supermop_> why are there junction underlays templated for in bridge surfaces? <- who knows? 23:15:59 *** markasoftware has joined #openttd 23:17:00 <supermop_> im going to ignore for now 23:19:05 <supermop_> hmm i need to figure out a better way that repeating this huge set of templating each time for each pavement type 23:19:33 <supermop_> like, redo all that previous stuff but for y.png instead of x.png 23:20:21 <supermop_> or, maybe i can put all the sprite related stuff into a separate nml file for each one? idk how that stuff works 23:22:49 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd 23:29:06 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:33:55 *** Stimrol has quit IRC 23:35:05 <Wolf01> Maybe andy could help you, he used some templating and recolouring script for unsinkable sam 23:37:43 <supermop_> possibly, but i think he's busy enough without lending charity to my ill-conceived projects 23:38:01 <supermop_> ok going home 23:48:38 *** skapazzo has quit IRC 23:56:28 <supermop> now I'm home