Log for #openttd on 9th October 2017:
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09:31:05  <Wolf01> Moin
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14:23:12  <Alberth> o/
14:24:03  <crem1> \o
14:31:41  <Arveen> \o/
14:32:25  <Wolf01> o/
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14:52:35  <supermop> yo
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15:59:59  <stefino> hey guys...I need help with bridges. I'm making (redrawing) bridges and found this bug. I 4xzoom it is ok but if I zoom out , gap appear. And it looks realy bad :/ Any idea where the mistake is? Thanks :)
16:01:03  <stefino> PS it is automaticly rescaled by OTTD engine. There are no graphics for x2 and normal zoom
16:12:00  <FLHerne> stefino: I think that's because of the way OTTD rescales sprites - it assumes the large ones are exactly 2x or 4x the size of normal zoom, including that edges have 2px/4px steps instead of a smooth diagonal line
16:12:32  <FLHerne> stefino: See , are relevant
16:13:54  <FLHerne> When OTTD scales down your sprites, it doesn't find the 'teeth' of the steps, so you get missing pixels along the edge
16:14:25  <stefino> Umm, can't remember how to send answer so write in general. So it is graphics bug due game automatic rescale and the solution is to add sprites in x2 and normal scale
16:16:08  <FLHerne> (this image by Foobar is probably clearest , from this thread
16:17:59  <FLHerne> Green + blue is the result of scaling a normal-zoom tile up by 4x
16:18:17  <FLHerne> Blue + red is the shape that 4x ground tiles are actually drawn at in most sets
16:19:12  <FLHerne> You can see that when OTTD scales the blue+red area down to normal zoom, there are missing pixels along the top edges
16:20:54  <FLHerne> Someone might have a better idea, but I think you're right that providing externally-scaled versions is best
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16:24:03  <FLHerne> FWIW, it's not really a 'bug' as such, the sprite just isn't the right shape for plain rescaling to work
16:29:19  <stefino> yes but if I have for example ground sprites, there are no graphics "bugs"
16:29:27  <stefino> and have only 4x zoom too
16:29:41  <stefino> or roads
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17:37:30  <andythenorth> o/
17:38:00  <supermop> yo andythenorth
17:38:30  <supermop> what the thinking between steam dummies, and little tank engines
17:38:50  <supermop> for industrial trams/ dockyard trains / mines
17:39:26  <supermop> should a tram set have dummies or heqs style locomotives
17:41:22  <andythenorth> steam dummies
17:41:34  <andythenorth> industrial trains for mines and farms are different
17:42:43  <supermop> should it have both?
17:43:13  <supermop> dummy looks too much like a short tram
17:43:36  <andythenorth> dummy is a tram :)
17:43:44  <andythenorth> V453000: yo, haz problem
17:43:57  <supermop> i guess the diesels should look like little sugar cane locomotives
17:44:04  <andythenorth> I assumed adding ribs would improve trains 20 and 21
17:44:13  <andythenorth> but it doesn’t
17:44:27  <andythenorth> the progression is just like ‘oh more hoppers blah'
17:44:37  <andythenorth> also all IH wagons are basically high contrast vertical ribs
17:44:39  <andythenorth> boring
17:44:39  <supermop> electrics boxcabs or steeples?
17:44:48  <andythenorth> steeple
17:45:07  <andythenorth> steeple actually looks crap
17:45:12  <andythenorth> the angles don’t work
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17:45:23  <andythenorth> I did center cab with rectangular small bonnets
17:45:26  <andythenorth> unrealism but eh
17:45:45  <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r27925 trunk/src/lang/malay.txt (2017-10-09 19:45:39 +0200 )
17:45:46  <DorpsGek> -Update from Eints:
17:45:47  <DorpsGek> malay: 5 changes by rionix88
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17:50:56  <supermop> 30ish tiny boxcab:
17:51:04  <supermop> no pole or panto yet
17:56:17  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't see why you want large ribbed hoppers
17:56:28  <andythenorth> because contrast
17:56:40  <andythenorth> also
17:56:53  <andythenorth> I made the covered hoppers by adding lids on hoppers
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17:56:58  <andythenorth> rather like IRL :P
17:57:05  <andythenorth> but the flat covered hoppers look wrong
17:57:12  <andythenorth> so I added ribs
17:57:14  <FLHerne> Big UK hoppers aren't really ribbed
17:57:25  <andythenorth> then I tried retconning the ribs onto the hoppers
17:57:33  <andythenorth> retcon is word of the year
17:57:46  <FLHerne> Covered hoppers (the biomass ones?) also aren't ribbed
17:57:57  <FLHerne> You posted a nice photo of one...
17:58:04  <andythenorth> yeah
17:58:09  <FLHerne> Aren't there covered HEA conversions too?
17:58:12  <andythenorth> yes
17:58:19  <andythenorth> the polybulks aren’t ribbed
17:58:25  <andythenorth> but the sprites look better with ribs :)
17:59:00  <Alberth> taking care of non-1 freight multiplier :)
17:59:05  <FLHerne> I disagree, they just look weird and stripy
18:01:44  <andythenorth> these ones?
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18:08:32  <FLHerne> Yes, very
18:09:32  <FLHerne> TBH, that's my opinion on most of the Iron Horse graphics you've posted
18:10:23  <FLHerne> They're all full of high-contrast details that break up the overall lines, and my personal preference is against that
18:13:05  <FLHerne> Greebles like that look nice on your FIRS buildings, but they look strange to me when portraying things that have huge expanses of sheet steel on the real thing
18:14:05  <FLHerne> (I think maybe because the minimum 1px detail size is still huge in OTTD scale, so there's not much space left /between/ the details)
18:15:34  <andythenorth> is interesting opposite of the V453000 method
18:15:58  <FLHerne> Not that you have any particular reason to care about my opinions, but I have a lot of them and they keep overflowing :P
18:16:20  <andythenorth> my problem with high contrast is that it’s just 1 technique
18:16:29  <andythenorth> FIRS has multiple techniques
18:16:39  <andythenorth> if all wagons are high-contrast vertical lines, all wagons look same :P
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18:21:55  <andythenorth> wagons lack other techniques
18:22:01  <andythenorth> I don’t like random noise
18:22:07  <andythenorth> there are no windows
18:22:15  <andythenorth> lettering and logos look stupid
18:23:02  <FLHerne> UKRS2 ones have a couple of different paint schemes for some wagon types, which helps
18:23:09  <supermop> 4x sprites so you can see the lettering?
18:23:37  <andythenorth> I considered paint schemes
18:23:46  <FLHerne> Also, more variation in silhouette
18:23:49  <andythenorth> but with all the cargo support, compile times are already unworkable
18:24:09  <FLHerne> Your early hoppers are all pretty much boxes
18:24:38  <FLHerne> Or they look that way when stuck into a train
18:25:09  <andythenorth> not funnel-y enough?
18:25:19  <FLHerne> UKRS2 almost alternates between ones with sloping ends and big visual gaps, and boxoid ones
18:25:26  <FLHerne>
18:26:08  <andythenorth> only the big blue hopper really looks like a hopper there
18:26:29  <andythenorth> partly because the inner grey slope is also drawn
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18:28:39  <FLHerne> The covered grain hoppers look ok
18:28:55  <FLHerne> MGR ones are a bit weird though
18:30:16  <FLHerne> Didn't you draw the UKRS2+ speedlink ones?
18:30:30  <FLHerne> Not hoppers, but they do look interestingly different to anything else
18:31:22  <andythenorth> I drew the + ones yes
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18:31:35  <andythenorth> the horse ones are all modified UKRS 2 (pikka or mine)
18:33:10  <FLHerne> I still can't really put my finger on how, but all the UKRS2(+) vehicles seem much more distinct than the IH ones
18:33:21  <FLHerne> I guess the non-standard lengths help :P
18:33:57  <FLHerne> But they've got different heights, and different sizes and shapes of gaps between them, and very different texturing
18:34:32  <FLHerne> Whereas the IH ones for each family all look rather like stretched versions of the same sprite
18:35:23  <FLHerne> Anyway, I need to go and ring church bells now, so I'll stop insulting your work...
18:35:39  <andythenorth> there’s a fundamental numbers problem
18:35:52  <andythenorth> IH has up to 12 sprites where UKRS 2 has one ;)
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18:49:49  <supermop> andythenorth:
18:49:50  <supermop> ?
18:50:00  <andythenorth> yes
18:50:37  <supermop> i wonder what a modern version of that looks like? just a yellow box likely?
18:51:27  <supermop> diesels should look like a tiny version of this i guess
18:51:28  <supermop>
18:54:48  <supermop>
18:55:02  <andythenorth>
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18:57:29  <supermop> this one maybe too small:
18:58:14  <andythenorth> mining
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19:04:14  <supermop> idk i am overthinking everything
19:04:29  <andythenorth> fill up inspiration
19:04:31  <andythenorth> then fake it
19:04:33  <supermop> feel like i need at least two each for steam, diesel, and electric
19:04:35  <andythenorth> the search google images for retcon
19:04:39  <andythenorth> then *
19:04:57  <supermop> hard to make something 3LU different looking
19:04:58  <andythenorth> for gameplay you really don’t need many
19:05:02  <andythenorth> yes
19:05:14  <andythenorth> I struggled with Hog to make 3 steam look different
19:05:30  <supermop> i considered a tank for difference
19:05:46  <supermop> diesel is going to be around for ever.
19:05:55  <supermop> 40s ish through infinity
19:05:55  <andythenorth> when you actually draw it, it’s very few pixels
19:06:05  <andythenorth> you don’t get much room :)
19:06:35  <supermop> electric can be boss from jump so don't need much progression. progress can be just adding wagons
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19:12:24  <supermop>
19:12:30  <supermop> looks like a diesel
19:12:51  <supermop> had assumed it would have been smaller
19:14:16  <andythenorth> boxcab
19:15:55  <supermop> was hoping 10th av freight would have used tiny locomotives
19:16:25  <supermop> but it was a full size SG railway
19:17:21  <supermop> rather it was part of the regular railway and regular trains drove onto it
19:17:57  <supermop>
19:25:29  <supermop> 4LU?
19:26:44  <andythenorth> :)
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19:34:01  <supermop>
19:34:12  <supermop> can chop that up
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19:43:49  <V453000> well well well
19:43:50  <andythenorth> covered hoppers getting ridiculous
19:43:55  <andythenorth> so many variants :P
19:44:01  <andythenorth> trying to find correct
19:44:02  <V453000> there goes 200 pounds off to amazon and no sprite progress today
19:44:08  <andythenorth> V453000: what purchase?
19:44:14  <V453000> books
19:44:40  <V453000> mr wannabe artist is reading art books when in subway
19:45:13  <andythenorth> I read an art book once
19:46:04  <V453000> I just find it vastly more interesting than staring into the rest of the cattle on the train for 40 minutes twice a day
19:46:59  <V453000> and I'm not too attracted to reading books with stories and shit
19:47:03  <V453000> sure, sometimes, but eh
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19:48:39  <V453000> other than that I basically have finished painting the tunnels and from looking at PSD they look awesome so far, will attempt to put them in the game to see how horribly wrong I am :D
19:48:55  <V453000>  /me is kind of sarcastictarded today
19:49:51  * andythenorth too much pixels
19:49:56  <andythenorth> I have drawn 400 covered hoppers
19:50:28  <V453000> jesus fuck :D that's amazing progress
19:50:34  <V453000> 50 types?
19:50:37  <V453000> that's what
19:50:38  <V453000> nuts?
19:50:40  <V453000> insane?
19:50:41  <V453000> mad?
19:50:45  <V453000> yeti?
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19:51:20  <V453000> well I guess if you have 25 cargoes with 2 randoms each it's kind of easy eh
19:51:48  <andythenorth> most of them are wrong
19:51:56  <andythenorth> surprisingly fricking hard to draw
19:55:43  <V453000> hm :) nothing is easy
19:56:02  <andythenorth> open cars are :P
19:56:05  <V453000> one would expect things to be becoming easier as you learn more
19:56:14  <andythenorth> standards go up
19:56:15  <V453000> but yeah
19:56:40  <V453000> yez, and dumb ass brain loopholes which want to make things complicated as flying fucks
19:57:35  <andythenorth> well I have fixed 1 generation
19:57:41  <andythenorth> now just have to fix the other 5 :x
19:58:09  <V453000> yeah exactly this shit is why nuts is dead :D
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20:15:42  <andythenorth> hmm 2 hours of drawing 2 sprites
20:15:45  <andythenorth> and it might not be better :P
20:16:44  <V453000> hahaha
20:16:49  <V453000> couldn't be more surprised
20:16:58  <V453000> of course it's total nightmare
20:17:07  <V453000> fucking ground sprites and their zoom levels
20:17:37  <andythenorth> total
20:17:39  <andythenorth> nightmare
20:17:42  <andythenorth> all of it
20:18:22  <V453000> hm
20:18:38  <V453000> well maybe just x1 will be fucked-ish and at that scale it might not be noticeable
20:18:38  <andythenorth> you know what else is a nightmare?
20:18:41  <V453000> no
20:18:41  <andythenorth> using grey in vehicles
20:18:44  <V453000> ha
20:18:46  <V453000> is it
20:18:46  <andythenorth> fricking depot bg is grey
20:18:50  <V453000> XD
20:18:52  <V453000> XD
20:18:52  <V453000> XD
20:18:53  <V453000> oh.
20:19:18  <andythenorth> draw nice sprite
20:19:23  <andythenorth> half of it disappears
20:21:06  <V453000> make it glow
20:21:08  <V453000> fixd
20:21:09  <V453000> GG
20:21:25  <V453000> if sprite == depot, set vehicle on fire = true
20:21:31  <andythenorth> fair
20:21:43  <andythenorth> also 26000 sprites
20:21:46  <andythenorth> nightmare
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20:23:18  <V453000> this thing is getting seriously dirty
20:23:23  <V453000> Render has been pushed though
20:23:59  <V453000> XD yeah
20:24:11  <V453000> 26000 isn't a small thing either
20:26:07  <supermop> maybe ill put one of those bars on the shunter wheels
20:26:30  <andythenorth> note to self
20:26:34  <andythenorth> don’t draw grey wagons
20:27:03  <V453000> note to self don't ever revisit brix source
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20:29:16  <V453000> ok now I can just pray
20:29:21  <V453000> either it's going to work
20:29:27  <V453000> or unicorns will die
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20:33:29  <andythenorth> unikitten
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20:38:45  <supermop> why do clients refuse to hire a graphic designer
20:39:03  <andythenorth> do they need graphic design? o_O
20:39:11  <supermop> then ask their interior designer to design all of their branding
20:39:25  <andythenorth> same reason they ask their website designer to design all their branding
20:39:28  <supermop> and produce production quality sinage graphics
20:39:36  <andythenorth> one of the many reasons I quit web design
20:39:49  <supermop> and won't pay to photograph their own dishes
20:40:12  <V453000> :D
20:40:17  <supermop> suggest to use something online, then don't want to pay for stock images
20:40:45  <andythenorth> unsplash
20:40:47  <andythenorth> or nothing
20:40:55  <andythenorth> agency work sucks
20:40:57  <andythenorth> make products :P
20:41:01  <supermop> and ask you to produce the graphics for the window vinyls same day
20:41:26  <supermop> my boss needs to be less thirsty about this stufff
20:41:31  <andythenorth> you have a computer right?
20:41:34  <supermop> we are not a branding consultancy
20:41:35  <andythenorth> and it’s all just IT
20:41:37  <andythenorth> so it’s fine
20:41:51  * andythenorth can only offer cynicsm here, sorry :)
20:42:14  <V453000> XD
20:42:18  <supermop> boss is the type who won't think twice until it's two late when presented with any opprotunity to grab scope
20:42:35  <supermop> even when that scope has nothing to do with our work
20:42:44  <supermop> and doesn't know how to price for it
20:43:32  <supermop> also this is all being done with no access to our server, which is down today, because it sits in a pile in an un-ventilated closet
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20:49:24  <andythenorth> supermop: so is the design not charged for?
20:49:41  <supermop> apparenty no
20:50:22  <supermop> got approval to invoice for reimbursement for licensing of image though
20:50:58  <andythenorth> if it was billed, you could at least involve freelance
20:51:20  <andythenorth> in principle tying together the interior and the graphics is more holistic, better result
20:51:26  <supermop> boss too hungry for that
20:51:30  <andythenorth> meh
20:51:35  <andythenorth> I’ve been that boss
20:51:42  <supermop> i would rather recapture the whole thing
20:51:44  <andythenorth> it’s a hard way to make money over the medium term
20:52:06  <supermop> it would be fine if we were a little more generously staffed
20:52:21  <andythenorth> occasionally a lot of money can be made that way, but it’s rare
20:52:25  <andythenorth> more usually it’s slow death
20:52:31  <supermop> also the most sucessful restaurant interiors firms are much more whole brand integrated
20:52:58  <supermop> but as we do not actually have that expertise to bring to table it is really just a pain
20:54:18  <supermop> going to have to see if my computer can hack it when it comes to making a 96"x96" photoshop file at 300 dpi
20:55:44  <andythenorth> 15 years since I did anything like that
20:55:53  <andythenorth> but large format banners used to be very challenging
20:56:07  <andythenorth> I had a friend who did huge building wraps
20:56:11  <andythenorth> on G3 macs
20:56:50  <supermop> i think i am going to try 150 dpi
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21:10:28  <andythenorth> is bed
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21:13:32  <peter1139> no
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22:55:40  <supermop> so this psd is 2 gb
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