Log for #openttd on 11th March 2018:
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07:17:04  <DorpsGek> Commit by peter1138 :: r27975 trunk/src/company_manager_face.h (2018-03-11 08:16:58 +0100 )
07:17:05  <DorpsGek> -Fix (r8969) [FS#6642]: Missing one hair style.
07:17:05  <andythenorth> o/
07:17:12  <andythenorth> more hair styles
07:17:27  <andythenorth> Commit by peter1138 :: merge NRT ?  o_O
07:17:37  <peter1138> Aw, forgot to credit m3henry :S
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07:24:36  <peter1138> Is NRT complete ?
07:26:59  <peter1138> eh?
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08:04:32  <Alberth> moin
08:24:47  <andythenorth> lo
08:27:39  <nielsm> well I have the title song looping perfectly now, when using the ms software midi synth, but still some issues with it when sending to an external synth (via oldschool serial midi)
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09:17:01  <andythenorth> blah blah pax ships
09:24:44  <Alberth> make a freight ship set :)
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09:25:22  <Alberth> or make a livestock ship refittable :p
09:25:48  <nielsm> alright this seems to work well enough now!
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09:30:06  <LordAro> nielsm: nice
09:31:17  <andythenorth> some sort of pax ship
09:34:08  <Alberth> seems ok
09:34:29  <Alberth> at least it has holes at the side :)
09:35:42  <nielsm> patch (with all my collected music fixes):
09:40:40  <andythenorth> hmm
09:40:48  <andythenorth> not sure where 'high speed' fits in Sam
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09:43:11  <Alberth> that would be only passengers and mail?
09:43:31  <Alberth> high speed coal bulk transport :)
09:44:04  <Alberth> just make smaller pax ships faster
09:44:06  <nielsm> how about a small single-person jet boat carrying a few bags of valuables
09:44:52  <Alberth> not quite unsinkable, I think :)
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09:46:21  <LordAro> nielsm: a few tips about getting patch reviewed: 1) nag devs insessantly 2) be very sure you're following code style 3) split patch into smaller logical changes (refactors first, new features second) 4) nag devs insessantly
09:48:36  <nielsm> yeah I'll interactive-rebase my git branch some time to make it look nicer and have individual changes make more sense
09:48:41  <nielsm> then split it into several patches
09:53:50  <andythenorth> not loving the large pax liner
09:53:52  <andythenorth> :P
09:53:58  <andythenorth> it's very blah blah blah
09:54:40  <nielsm> make the upper decks slightly smaller than the lower, rounded at the ends
09:55:05  <nielsm> and maybe add an outdoor pool!
09:56:01  <andythenorth> it just needs to be...better :P
09:56:10  <andythenorth> need some RL inspiration
09:56:16  <andythenorth> this is right size + type, but is boring
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09:59:43  <andythenorth> this is quite nice,0.jpg
09:59:57  <Alberth> remove front and back upper holes
10:00:21  <axoi> Hello! Is it posibble to have a game where diffrent player companies share one transport network?
10:00:37  <Alberth> I like the green deck :)
10:00:47  <Alberth> hi
10:01:11  <Alberth> axoi:  you can play a coop game, where everybody is in the same company
10:01:36  <Alberth> there is also a shared infrastructure patch, but no idea what its current state is
10:02:35  <axoi> Alberth: I know, but I want to recreate transport situation from my country - we have a lot companies and one network. :D
10:02:38  <Alberth> if you want the latter, and are looking for a ready-made program, I think your best bet is the JGR patchpack in the development forum, but really no idea if it is included in there
10:04:12  <Alberth>  the actual patch, seems old-ish
10:04:19  <axoi> Alberth: I can build game with this patch, no need to out-of-box solution. I'll check if it works later. :)
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10:05:16  <Alberth> check what the last update is, could be years
10:05:54  <Alberth>    jgr patch does seem to have it too
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10:06:32  <Alberth> and that is definitely up-to-date
10:06:58  <Alberth> you can either build the thing yourself (it's at github somewhere), or download a version from that thread
10:07:22  <Alberth> github url is likely mentioned in the thread as well
10:08:26  <andythenorth> infra is weird
10:08:33  <andythenorth> I had real trouble understanding it
10:08:43  <andythenorth> even connecting tracks is very hard
10:09:15  <Alberth> never played it
10:09:35  <axoi> Thank you for your help. :) I'll test this later, and I may make server if it works as I want.
10:10:19  <Alberth> is it useful to have infra-sharing?
10:10:33  <andythenorth> I found it confusing
10:10:35  <Alberth> it's mostly just shifting some income around, isn't it?
10:10:59  <andythenorth> it's access into stations / bits of map you'd otherwise be blocked from
10:11:05  <andythenorth> it's a potato/potato feature
10:11:13  <andythenorth> the game is fine without it
10:11:37  <andythenorth> including it is neutral for gameplay, but more complex to code, explain and document
10:11:43  <andythenorth> so I am very -1
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10:12:06  <Alberth> seems fair
10:16:51  <andythenorth> I don't play multiplayer though
10:17:00  <andythenorth> meanwhile
10:17:04  <andythenorth> better, still boring
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10:23:03  <Wolf01> Moin
10:24:17  <Alberth> moin
10:25:03  <Alberth> we'll also get a non-luxury version?
10:25:32  <andythenorth> yes, there's a ferry-type
10:25:41  <andythenorth> the luxury is something like
10:25:45  <Alberth> I'd somewhat suggest to tear down the back half of the cabins, and make some recreation area
10:27:06  <Wolf01> 20000 Edge extesions and none for RSS :(
10:27:12  <Alberth> or add some 2cc decoration at the side?
10:30:23  <Wolf01> andythenorth: could you do something for the funnels one the front side? They look like glued :P
10:31:07  <Wolf01> If they are "complete", starting from the deck they are fine, but if they are just the top part I find them strange
10:31:39  <andythenorth> which ship?
10:31:52  <Wolf01> Everyone with double funnels
10:32:18  <Wolf01> If white it's even more evident
10:32:21  <andythenorth> they don't look attached to the hull?
10:32:31  <Wolf01> They look like a sticker
10:32:50  <Wolf01> Maybe it misses some shadow
10:33:49  <andythenorth> they're just not well drawn :P
10:34:06  <andythenorth> the shading is not right either
10:36:24  <andythenorth> one option is to shorten pax ships relative to freight
10:36:41  <andythenorth> I did same with trawlers, worked good
10:37:59  <Wolf01> Short on file names? XD
10:40:26  <Alberth> "sam" gets boring after a week :)
10:40:38  <andythenorth> that
10:40:45  <Wolf01> Ok, back to technic.. I need to finish that robotic arm :D
10:41:02  <andythenorth> oh the unfinished Technic projects I have :P
10:41:12  <andythenorth> and then there are always new parts coming, so I wait
10:41:22  <Alberth> :)
10:41:34  <Alberth> maybe re-use stuff of one project for another?
10:41:46  <andythenorth> that is a nice idea
10:41:50  <Alberth> reduces the number and projects, and makes more progress
10:41:56  <Wolf01> I found I'm missing a lot of parts, also parts which don't even exist
10:41:56  <andythenorth> the best builders do that
10:42:06  <andythenorth> build, video, destroy
10:42:09  <andythenorth> build next thing
10:42:22  <Wolf01> I need to bring that to the exposition next month
10:42:30  <andythenorth> I get too attached to the results
10:42:30  <Alberth> if building is your thing, that works
10:44:20  <Alberth> building is my thing, but the approach fails with coding :(
10:44:28  <Alberth> parts are too easy to make
10:44:28  <andythenorth> it works with mods
10:44:37  <andythenorth> it doesn't work with a core application
10:44:47  <andythenorth> people expect it to stick around and keep working
10:45:25  <Alberth> annoying, isn't it?  :)
10:45:40  <andythenorth> it's ok if they pay
10:45:47  <andythenorth> or if you really enjoy it :P
10:46:04  <Alberth> I enjoy the puzzles in it
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10:56:59  <Wolf01> What
10:57:57  <Alberth> sneak visit :)
10:58:39  <Wolf01> Maybe he remembered he had an irc client (configured with autojoin here)
10:59:23  <Wolf01> Meh, 67MB for just the VS installer :|
10:59:26  <Alberth> :)
10:59:46  <Alberth> insane software sizes nowadays eh
11:00:18  <andythenorth>
11:00:25  <andythenorth> how can I explain the QA process to Wuzzy?
11:00:30  <Wolf01> And I have to install a specific platform version, which might end up in 3GB of libraries and fuck up my entire environment
11:00:49  <Wolf01> Maybe I should just use the old VS 2015
11:00:52  <andythenorth> I don't disagree with the ticket btw, there are 37 'crash' tickets, multiple of which are due to AI
11:02:52  <Wolf01> Eh... put on a voting system on bananas and downvote things which don't work right
11:02:54  <andythenorth> I don't know how to read the crashlogs properly
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11:03:26  <andythenorth> but afaict, common causes of crashes seem to be (1) ICU (2) AI (3) liblzma
11:03:53  <Wolf01> Ok, good news, I don't need to download that specific target platform, it doesn't seem to exist
11:05:35  <Wolf01> What If I just put 14393 instead of 14366 in the vcxproj? :D
11:06:06  <Wolf01> Building started
11:06:18  <Wolf01> Build failed
11:08:17  <Wolf01>  <AdditionalIncludeDirectories>C:\Users\gwicks\work\SDL-mirror\include; <- yes, because it's fine to use absolute paths
11:11:40  <Alberth> as long as stuff never moves :)
11:13:57  <Wolf01> SDL_winrt_main_NonXAML.cpp must be compiled with /ZW, otherwise build errors due to missing .winmd files can occur. <- ok, this is different
11:18:18  <andythenorth> I found this sprite in Squid, unused
11:19:20  <Alberth> +1, has cats, so sam compatible
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11:22:05  <andythenorth> not sure about including big ferries
11:28:48  <Alberth> larger than large???
11:29:24  <Alberth> we don't have many ship sets, do we?
11:29:52  <Alberth> everybody is a bit train-oriented :p
11:30:28  <Alberth> although hackalittlebit codes nice stuff
11:32:02  <Alberth> you'd somewhat expect that a pax ship set would exist
11:33:24  <andythenorth> there a few attempts
11:35:59  <andythenorth> ferry looks better shorter eh? :P
11:36:38  <andythenorth> but does it look like 720 pax?
11:39:43  <nielsm> based on number of windows etc, something like 120-200
11:40:27  <nielsm> and the mini above looks like 40-70
11:42:16  <nielsm> apoligies to the OpenMSG team, but a lot of it is really jarring, and the sound level is somewhat inconsistent between tracks :(
11:42:30  * nielsm is checking his new code with it
11:42:36  <nielsm> OpenMSX*
11:43:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27976 /trunk (3 files in 2 dirs) (2018-03-11 12:43:32 +0100 )
11:43:36  <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#6664]: Climate-specific Action5 extra airport sprites. (PaulC)
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12:03:20  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27977 /trunk (7 files in 2 dirs) (2018-03-11 13:03:17 +0100 )
12:03:21  <DorpsGek> -Add [FS#6664]: Replace the office building sprite on various toyland airports with a better fitting sprite. This also affects GRFs which activate the default refinery in toyland. (PaulC)
12:03:33  <andythenorth> :)
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12:11:12  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27978 /trunk/src (saveload/saveload.cpp table/settings.ini) (2018-03-11 13:11:09 +0100 )
12:11:13  <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#6673] (r18541): Store the map variety setting in the samegame like the other mapgen settings, so restarting maps considers it. (Samu)
12:15:27  <andythenorth> 128px large ferry
12:15:28  <andythenorth> ach
12:15:33  <andythenorth> dunno, looks wrong
12:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause> a ferry larger than a cruise ship?
12:18:33  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27979 /trunk (readme.txt src/misc_gui.cpp) (2018-03-11 13:18:30 +0100 )
12:18:34  <DorpsGek> -Add: adf88 to readme
12:20:11  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's same length, but looks bigger
12:20:14  <andythenorth> and has same capacity
12:20:18  <andythenorth> not convinced
12:20:54  <Alberth> I  like the walking area at the top floor
12:21:23  <Alberth> instead of just vertical steel wall
12:24:35  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27980 /trunk (62 files in 5 dirs) (2018-03-11 13:24:32 +0100 )
12:24:36  <DorpsGek> -Doc: Yearly increment
12:25:03  <LordAro> frosch123: going for the old-style new year?
12:25:21  <frosch123> it's precisely one year after the last new year
12:25:51  <frosch123> maybe 4 hours earlier
12:26:33  <frosch123> also september, october, november, december make more sense this way .) so, yes old-style new year
12:27:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a tiny bit silly, actually. because the new year began in march, but ended in december. the other months were "in-between" years
12:27:49  <Eddi|zuHause> and most times it were 2 months and occasionally 3 months
12:27:59  <frosch123> afaik there is no definite story how this happened
12:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> "month" here meaning one moon cycle (new moon to new moon)
12:30:49  <andythenorth> so
12:31:03  <andythenorth> is 'Large' the ship length, or the capacity? :(
12:31:07  <andythenorth> I use it in both ways
12:31:17  <Alberth> it's somewhat related :p
12:31:26  <andythenorth> seemed good at first
12:31:44  <andythenorth> capacity was derived from length
12:31:51  <Alberth> maybe capacity is too realistic :p
12:31:52  <andythenorth> but some ship types look silly this way
12:31:53  <Eddi|zuHause> so the way January 1st happened was that the romans switched from lunar to solar calender, and January 1st was whatever happened to be new moon after the winter equinox that year
12:32:50  <Alberth> little did they realize we would never change it :p
12:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not equinox, what's the other name? solstice
12:33:32  <frosch123>  prejustice confirmed: patches which are indented incorrectly are also broken in other ways
12:33:38  <andythenorth> I improved the ferry, more appropriate wheelhouse size for length
12:35:24  <Alberth> blue cabins make it friendlier :)
12:36:49  <andythenorth> I think it's too big relative to large luxury ship
12:36:55  <andythenorth> both are 720 pax
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12:37:36  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said...
12:39:01  <andythenorth> so I can make it shorter, or lower
12:39:14  <andythenorth> shorter doesn't really look right, although it's a nice sprite
12:39:31  <andythenorth>
12:39:40  <andythenorth> or maybe it does
12:39:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks way better
12:40:34  <andythenorth> hmm ok
12:40:40  <andythenorth> I think it's a better sprite
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12:46:08  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27981 trunk/src/economy.cpp (2018-03-11 13:46:05 +0100 )
12:46:09  <DorpsGek> -Change [FS#6679]: Check companies for bankruptcy before subtracting reoccuring monthly costs. (Samu)
12:47:37  <andythenorth> :)
12:48:05  <andythenorth> sea-going passenger liners?
12:48:08  <andythenorth> or river? o_O
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12:48:51  <Alberth> don't think the distinction is that relevant
12:49:04  <andythenorth> they look quite different
12:49:19  <andythenorth> but gameplay, there's nothing between them
12:49:20  <nielsm> I think sea-going can usually afford to go deeper into the water
12:49:34  <Alberth> sure, so feel free to add a few for variation
12:49:43  <andythenorth> OpenTTD has no weather, so all ships can go on all water :)
12:49:44  <Alberth> nielsm: in openttd everything is 1 tile deep :)
12:49:45  <Eddi|zuHause> there's loads of size restrictions for river ships
12:49:58  <Alberth> or even, 0 tiles :p
12:49:59  <Eddi|zuHause> bridges, locks, depths
12:50:14  <andythenorth> I think the river ship will re-introduce problem of relative sizing :P
12:50:20  <andythenorth> but it might look nice
12:50:27  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i vote no on the river ships, as long as there is no useful gameplay distinction
12:50:36  <andythenorth> it's more just a choice of sprite
12:50:42  <andythenorth> there are river ships for freight
12:50:43  <Alberth> name it sea ship, so it's the user fault if used at a river :p
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12:54:58  <andythenorth> I should break the size rules :P
12:55:08  <andythenorth> currently it's 128px, 96px, 64px
12:55:14  <andythenorth> which looks good and makes offsets easy
12:55:39  <andythenorth> but ferry is better at 104px :P
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13:17:47  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27982 trunk/src/newgrf_spritegroup.cpp (2018-03-11 14:17:44 +0100 )
13:17:48  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Reduce invocations of GetGlobalVariable. Speedup sprite resolving by about 3 percent.
13:18:17  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27983 trunk/src/newgrf_spritegroup.cpp (2018-03-11 14:18:13 +0100 )
13:18:18  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Reduce complexity of VA2 add-div/mod adjustments
13:19:44  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27984 /trunk/src (23 files) (2018-03-11 14:19:41 +0100 )
13:19:45  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Make ScopeResolver constructors/destructors inlineable. Speedup sprite resolving by about 8 percent.
13:21:30  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27985 /trunk/src (3 files) (2018-03-11 14:21:27 +0100 )
13:21:31  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Convert VA2 switches into ones with non-overlapping ranges, sort them and resolve them using binary search. Speedup sprite resolving by about 7 percent.
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13:22:43  <Alberth> :O  nice!
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13:23:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27986 /trunk/src (tile_type.h vehicle.cpp) (2018-03-11 14:23:26 +0100 )
13:23:30  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Name magic constants in the vehicle position hash functions.
13:23:53  <frosch123> the patch series is incomplete though
13:24:07  <frosch123> there is potential for a lot more optimisation, but i did not finish that
13:24:44  <andythenorth> :)
13:25:05  * andythenorth pulls
13:25:29  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27987 trunk/src/tile_type.h (2018-03-11 14:25:26 +0100 )
13:25:30  <DorpsGek> -Change: Increase maximum allowed vehicle sprite size to reduce clipping of ships.
13:25:36  <andythenorth> also nice
13:25:45  <andythenorth> I don't have to post a video of my test game :)
13:25:46  <frosch123> your ships should clipp less now, though noone complained :p
13:25:56  <andythenorth> I complained, but I didn't file a good bug report
13:27:20  <nielsm> hey frosch123 could you add this to .gitignore ?
13:27:21  <nielsm> projects/.vs/
13:27:29  <nielsm> (and maybe other .*ignore files too)
13:27:47  <nielsm> since visual studio 2015 likes to put user settings files in that location
13:30:57  <frosch123> ms using "." for hidden files now? :p
13:31:11  <nielsm> yep, going hybrid
13:31:22  <nielsm> (it still gets marked with the ntfs/fat "hidden" attributed too)
13:32:39  <frosch123> lowercase "vs"?
13:32:45  <nielsm> yes
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13:33:17  <andythenorth> hmm
13:33:21  <frosch123> oh, it was already in svn:ignore
13:34:09  <andythenorth> my 1.7.1 savegame is broken in r27987
13:34:17  <andythenorth> I changed newgrfs a lot in it, so eh
13:34:20  <andythenorth> probly not valid
13:34:31  <DorpsGek> Commit by frosch :: r27988 /trunk (.gitignore .hgignore) (2018-03-11 14:34:28 +0100 )
13:34:32  <DorpsGek> -Codechange: Extent hg- and gitignore for .vs
13:35:01  <frosch123> andythenorth: for what value of broken?
13:35:12  <frosch123> i added a Samu patch which did savegame version stuff
13:35:23  <andythenorth> yeah clean 1.7.1 savegame is broken loading in r27987
13:35:33  <andythenorth> industries are showing mine sprite
13:35:39  <nielsm> I hope my birds will let me continue cleaning up my patches... they keep coming over to occupy my hands
13:35:47  <andythenorth> newgrf vehicles fall back to original sprites
13:35:58  <andythenorth> no newgrf errors are reported
13:36:05  <andythenorth> newgrf stations might be working
13:36:36  <andythenorth> ok it's isolated to industries maybe in this save
13:36:51  <andythenorth> properties are correct
13:37:18  <andythenorth> oh and all industries closed after a few months
13:37:59  <frosch123> hmm, i thought i tested these patches in january :p
13:38:44  <Mazur> Did you check the sell-by date?
13:39:33  <andythenorth> is it the new VA2?
13:39:39  * andythenorth hasn't tried bisecting yet
13:39:58  <frosch123> the VA2 one is the most critical change :)
13:40:03  <andythenorth> in a room with 9 other people
13:40:07  <andythenorth> somewhat loud :P
13:42:21  <frosch123> my testgame with nuts and yeti looks fine, but i see that firs is borked
13:45:37  <andythenorth> sorry :)
13:46:30  <frosch123> well, it's the first time that we reorder newgrf instructions :p processor manufacturers also got trouble with that
13:49:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i see we're totally release ready :p
13:49:39  <peter1138> Hmm
13:51:39  <LordAro> frosch123: ?
13:52:27  <frosch123> LordAro: std::lower_bound in this case, but more or less the same
13:52:39  <LordAro> ah yes, i see it
13:53:30  <frosch123> anyway, that part has an assertion, so the issure must be within newgrf.cpp with the recompilation
13:56:12  <frosch123> ah, found it
13:56:15  <frosch123> missing "break"
13:56:37  <peter1138> now it's no longer 10% faster ;)
13:57:20  <frosch123> the testcase is not affected :)
13:57:58  <frosch123> hmm, still borked
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14:05:04  <supermop> yo
14:05:24  <andythenorth> lo supermop
14:05:48  <supermop> here is a puzzle: currently i use lots of sprite stacks for trucks and trailers
14:06:34  <supermop> i'd like rigid trucks to use the newer cargo and truck body sprites i've made for trailers and industrial trams
14:07:29  <supermop> but there has to be some compromise as the rigid truck needs a cab and possibly trolley poles as part of the same stack, using up slots
14:10:07  <supermop> currently i do: chassis/truck bed(+ cargo)/cab/trolley poles for  truck facing camera, and cab/chassis/bed(+ cargo)/poles for facing away
14:10:55  <andythenorth> what's the puzzle? :)
14:11:16  <supermop> works fine except i need a separate sprite for every combination of cargo, load amount, and bed variant
14:11:38  <supermop> like open truck, flat bed, different hoppers/dump trucks
14:11:51  <andythenorth> you didn't split the cargo and body?
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14:12:08  <supermop> differentiating between bars or rolls of metal is impractical
14:12:51  <supermop> with trailers, the cargo is a separate sprite layered between the bed bottom/rear and top/side
14:13:24  <supermop> so it can easily be changed or even recolored separate from the trailer itself
14:14:07  <supermop> give large flexibility and variety of cargo graphics and trailer variant for just a few sprites
14:15:19  <supermop> even if i combine the chassis with the truck bed for rigid trucks, i still would need body/cargo/sides/cab/trolley poles
14:15:24  <supermop> 5 > 4
14:16:00  <supermop> so i wonder if there is a better way to combine things to free up one more space
14:16:27  <supermop> which seems easier than getting frosch123 to give me one more layer in the stack that is not a power of 2
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14:22:11  <Alberth> add the bed/sides to the cargo?
14:22:29  <Alberth> likely by computing the result while building the grf
14:23:32  <supermop> adding bed and sides to cargo gives very large number of sprites,
14:23:50  <supermop> basically situation i have now
14:23:56  <frosch123> it should be vehicle back, cargo, vehicle front: 3 layers
14:24:11  <frosch123> i don't quite understand where the other layers come from
14:24:15  <supermop> trolley pole
14:24:17  <andythenorth> compositing :P
14:24:21  <andythenorth> in PIL
14:24:25  <andythenorth> this is better
14:24:28  <andythenorth> but not happy yet
14:24:41  <supermop> pole needs to overlap both the front and rear halves of vehicle
14:24:55  <andythenorth> the ships with 4 funnels are both 720 pax
14:25:25  <supermop> luxury ship needs more luxury
14:25:41  <supermop> like a pool or deck tennis or something
14:26:03  <supermop> or greeble on top roof/deck
14:26:43  <supermop> frosch123: part of the vehicle back overlaps the cargo as well
14:27:14  <Alberth> top ship front chimneys shade not too dark?
14:27:25  <andythenorth> luxury is hard to see
14:27:27  <frosch123> when i say "vehicle back" i mean "back" in screen Z orientation
14:27:38  <frosch123> so "vehicle back" is always behind the cargo
14:27:52  <supermop> the 'open truck' has sides which overlap the metal or whatever by a few pixels, whereas the flatbeds dont for the same cargo
14:28:52  <andythenorth> 2 decks on the luxury ship, not 3, looks sleeker
14:28:53  <supermop> well i could add the 'sides' to the cab then for views where truck faces camera, and add the body to the cab for facing away
14:29:16  <andythenorth> how about vehicles in vehicles? o_O
14:29:22  <nielsm> greeble on cruise-ish ship:
14:29:25  <andythenorth> then we could have 4 layers of 4 layers
14:29:36  <supermop> still looks odd without greeble andythenorth
14:29:36  <Alberth> much more luxury :)
14:29:51  <supermop> like, pax can walk right around funnels
14:30:41  <nielsm> tiny local ferry:
14:32:10  <andythenorth> supermop: I did pure blue for trawlers in end
14:32:17  <andythenorth> mixed blue + CC looked weird
14:32:27  <supermop> frosch123: combining the cabs with parts of beds is probably less of combinatorial explosion, but does mean there will need to be specific cabs for each type and generation of rigid trucks
14:32:29  <nielsm> view down of second-highest outside deck:
14:33:32  <supermop> instead of current where there is one cab sprite (and one alternate livery) for each generation, regardless of truck type
14:34:00  <andythenorth> supermop: give in, use PIL :)
14:34:10  <Alberth> +1
14:34:19  <supermop> so a 4th gen rigid trolley truck, and 4th gen semi diesel truck use same cab
14:34:25  <andythenorth> I use PIL + the sprite layers combined
14:34:43  <supermop> andythenorth:  if python makes me 1000s of sprites i still have to define and reference them?
14:34:52  <andythenorth> well then you just generate the code :P
14:35:02  <supermop> making the sprite in PS isn't hard
14:35:15  <supermop> well yes that's the next step
14:35:29  <supermop> but can i learn to do that in < 20 days
14:35:33  <andythenorth> no :)
14:35:42  <andythenorth> this is my cargo switches
14:35:53  <andythenorth> 89 lines
14:35:57  <supermop> as i want a functional-ish grf on bananas april 1
14:36:00  <Alberth> but you decide to make one change to the cabin, and you'll have 40 days
14:36:31  <andythenorth> it's about 20 days work to set up sprite compositing
14:36:38  <andythenorth> and that's assuming you know python and have a compile
14:36:51  <supermop> my current thinking is i wont change rigid trucks at all before 1.0 release
14:37:08  <supermop> as they work now, just with less fun cargo sprites than trailers
14:37:21  <Alberth> the profit of automating is that changing becomes feasible
14:38:28  <supermop> andythenorth: add some boxy thing around base of funnels and some lumps for life rafts?
14:38:46  <andythenorth> probably
14:38:50  <andythenorth> I am -1 to greeble mostly
14:38:55  <supermop> heh
14:39:10  <andythenorth> it looks bad in TTD
14:39:21  <supermop> composite of the funels to make them randomly change
14:39:34  <supermop> hehe
14:49:21  <nielsm> lol, I think one of the songs in OpenMSX changes the pitch bend controller range, which causes external synths to sound weird afterwards
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14:51:43  <andythenorth> 2 giant ugly funnels?
14:53:38  <nielsm> I think they should be in conjunction with the helm, considering how they would block space in the interior
14:54:39  <nielsm> and maybe add a fence separating the top deck area with the funnels from the rest, so part of the deck can be open to passengers
14:57:16  <supermop> not a fan of the fat funnels
14:57:38  <supermop> should be 4 ocean liner style, or two modern looking ones
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15:01:02  <andythenorth>
15:01:08  <andythenorth> is not better, but shows an idea
15:01:57  <nielsm> I like that large luxury one, and the small luxury also looks reasonably believable
15:02:24  <nielsm> the four corners funnels of the fast-loading seems strange to me
15:03:07  <frosch123> why did i fell into the same newgrf trap that i explained to others dozen of times :/
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15:04:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: what trap? o_O
15:04:52  <frosch123> the numranges=0 case returning the calculated result
15:08:59  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: Commit by frosch :: r27989 /trunk/src (3 files) (2018-03-11 16:08:51 +0100 )
15:09:00  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: -Fix (r27985): VA2 optimisation failed in various special cases:
15:09:01  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain:   - nvar=0 is meant to return the calculated result.
15:09:02  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain:   - Missing references resolve to NULL and got identified with the default result.
15:09:03  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain:   - Missing 'break' broke overlapping cases.
15:09:04  <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: (...)
15:09:10  <frosch123> andythenorth: firs better now?
15:09:38  * andythenorth tests
15:11:23  <andythenorth> frosch123: wfm :)
15:16:26  <andythenorth>
15:16:28  <andythenorth> 2 funnels
15:19:17  <andythenorth> also luxury 2 funnel
15:21:59  <nielsm> 2-funnel.png  <- this is really good
15:23:14  <andythenorth> less weird eh?
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15:38:55  <nielsm> okay, finished cleaning up my music patches and put them up on bugtracker now
15:41:00  <nielsm>
15:43:23  <andythenorth> luxury ship just doesn't look luxury :)
15:43:27  <andythenorth> looks like a ferry
15:43:44  <andythenorth> ok biab
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17:37:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: ships do indeed flicker less :)
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18:00:06  <andythenorth> so a luxury ship should look like this
18:00:12  <andythenorth> maybe not just standard CC?
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18:21:18  <Alberth> no blue/yellow cc ?
18:21:46  <Alberth> looks nice that colour combination :)
18:25:48  <andythenorth> it does
18:28:03  <Eddi|zuHause> why would the pacifists go mad just because you declared war on someone, to bring them peace and democracy?
18:29:37  <andythenorth> this attempt is remarkably bad :)
18:29:56  <andythenorth> supposed to be
18:30:05  <Eddi|zuHause> uhm wtf does it have a cargo crane for?
18:30:26  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it should be much smaller
18:30:29  <andythenorth> to fill the horrible gap
18:31:09  <andythenorth> previous attempt was much more consistent
18:31:10  <andythenorth> but boring
18:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> you changed the cruise ship for this one, which is tiny, but you kept the size
18:32:17  <andythenorth> the ship is quite large IRL compared to the RL freight shiops
18:32:23  <andythenorth> but yeah, the appearance is off
18:32:31  <andythenorth> ships are very hard to judge
18:35:48  <andythenorth> the IRL pax ship is 87m, compared to about 65m for the IRL freight ships
18:36:07  <andythenorth> I think reducing it is distorting all the proportions, makes it ugly
18:38:26  <Alberth> don't have a large pax ship?
18:38:36  <andythenorth> it's an option
18:38:52  <andythenorth> I like the challenge though
18:39:02  <Alberth> :)
18:39:15  <Alberth> in that case, carry on :)
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18:40:04  <andythenorth> this would be a better IRL subject
18:40:18  <andythenorth> it's the right length, and doesn't have complicated sloping shapes
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18:56:00  <Alberth> differences are too small to distinguish all the ships you find :)
18:59:22  <andythenorth> I never actually draw a RL ship
18:59:39  <andythenorth> I synthesise a lot of bits of RL ships
19:09:17  <andythenorth> this is better, it's chunky
19:10:15  <frosch123> there is no pool on deck
19:10:29  <frosch123> what else would you want when surrounded by water?
19:12:23  <andythenorth> my water cycle doesn't work :P
19:12:26  <andythenorth> so no pool :)
19:14:08  <Alberth> gap at the front-deck is weird, perhaps make the back deck larger?
19:14:34  <Alberth> (of the large luxury pax ship)
19:15:27  <Alberth> frosch: sun bathing, but not enough pixels probably
19:16:14  <frosch123> yeah, not enough pixels for a golf course
19:16:34  <Alberth>  is also an option :)
19:16:57  <Alberth> still too detailed though
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19:55:43  <Wolf01> Wow, still arranging pixels?
19:57:20  <andythenorth> smoothed it out
19:57:30  <andythenorth> but I think I preferred the one with the clunky step
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19:58:55  <Wolf01> Meh, I won't be able to compile that game, if I fix one problem 10 more pop up
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20:03:51  <michi_cc> andythenorth: It's not exactly a luxury vessel :), but if you want passengers with cranes:
20:04:32  <andythenorth> michi_cc: that's pretty much the small one :)
20:04:58  <andythenorth> I haven't drawn the mail ships yet ;)
20:05:33  <andythenorth> o_O
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20:07:00  <frosch123> something about mail and ship is weird when combined :p
20:07:35  <andythenorth> this is the other ship for Scilly Isles
20:08:21  <andythenorth> somewhat the small piece goods carrier
20:13:33  <andythenorth>
20:13:49  <andythenorth> fast loading pax ship, payment bonus pax ship
20:14:08  <andythenorth> and for comparison, livestock, trawler, beer tanker
20:28:17  <frosch123> <- not edible :p
20:30:53  <andythenorth> ha ha
20:31:07  <andythenorth> is it FIRS :)
20:31:18  <andythenorth> nope, original industries
20:31:36  <andythenorth> the sawmill is excellent
20:32:39  <frosch123> clay has issues with sharp edges
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20:34:57  <andythenorth> inherent anti-aliasing
20:35:35  <Wolf01> I give up
20:35:53  <frosch123> new artstyle for V?
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20:40:40  <andythenorth> :P
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21:06:16  <andythenorth> bue
21:06:18  <andythenorth> bye *
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22:42:47  <Wolf01> 'night
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