Log for #openttd on 2nd December 2019:
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00:03:44  <glx> "Since the generation of the LALR tables is relatively expensive, previously generated tables are cached and reused if possible. The decision to regenerate the tables is determined by taking an MD5 checksum of all grammar rules and precedence rules. Only in the event of a mismatch are the tables regenerated."
00:05:08  <FLHerne> glx: has `if optimize or (read_signature == signature):`   :-/
00:05:27  * FLHerne grumbles about undocumented stuff
00:05:35  <FLHerne> Possibly I should drop that
00:08:15  <glx> <-- this is not very clear for me
00:12:13  <glx> removing optimize seems to work
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00:13:00  <FLHerne> Nor to me
00:13:37  <FLHerne> I think "One of the purposes of optimized mode is to substantially decrease the startup time of your compiler (by assuming that everything is already properly specified and works)." is the closest it gets to saying "the above isn't actually true"
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00:14:15  <FLHerne> And that's reading it in hindsight with the knowledge that it isn't :P
00:14:24  <glx> yeah I understand it as in 'optimize' mode I don't try to rebuild the tables
00:15:27  <glx> but optimize should be only for running optimized python
00:15:56  <glx> that's why they say you must run in normal python first
00:16:59  <glx> "To make this work, make sure you first run Python in normal mode. Once the lexing and parsing tables have been generated the first time, run Python in optimized mode. PLY will use the tables without the need for doc strings. " <-- for me it says I generate only if there's no tables
00:17:55  <FLHerne> Now I'm not sure what you mean either... ;-)
00:18:42  <glx> I think when optimize is set it doesn't check the source changes
00:19:11  <glx> because it could cause issues when python is in optimized mode
00:19:41  <glx> due to comments specifying the rules being ignored
00:20:00  <glx> well doc-strings
00:20:44  <glx> and that's exactly what the code you found do
00:21:00  <glx> optimize or code unchanged
00:24:58  <FLHerne> glx: Ok, I see what you mean
00:25:28  <FLHerne> But the `optimize` flag being set doesn't actually have any correlation to whether python is being run with -O
00:26:08  <FLHerne> You can run `python -O` without setting the parameter, or vice versa
00:26:25  <FLHerne> (AAUI, in the first case it'll fail because no docstrings, but whatever)
00:27:26  <FLHerne> Does look as though it's intended to be used that way
00:33:51  <glx> running 'python -O' without optimize it doesn't output generated/
00:34:41  <glx> and with -OO it can't build the parser
00:35:05  <glx> hmm "Can't build lexer"
00:37:41  <glx> ok in normal python without optimize is not created
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00:40:08  <glx> and -OO with existing tables fails
00:41:22  <glx> warnings about missing doc-string and
00:41:22  <glx>    File "C:\Users\Loïc\AppData\Roaming\Python\Python37\site-packages\ply\", line 1637, in set_start
00:41:22  <glx>     start = self.Productions[1].name
00:41:22  <glx> IndexError: list index out of range
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01:03:46  <glx> replacing 'optimize=True' with 'optimize=not(self.__doc__)' in seems to work
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01:26:17  <glx> but won't update
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10:50:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] ldpl updated pull request #7791: GS method to control engine availability for a specific company
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11:27:45  <LordAro> supermop_work_: have you considered a bouncer?
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12:15:27  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
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14:45:48  <supermop_work_> hi andy
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15:07:00  <andythenorth> yo
15:07:27  <andythenorth> supermop_work_: how's the Horse game?
15:07:41  <supermop_work_> pretty mature
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15:08:39  <supermop_work_> don't really have a natural path to build out HSR though. Making like 4k vehicles a month
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16:48:12  <supermop_work_> this year wife's company holiday party is 'cocktail attire'
16:48:55  <supermop_work_> never had any need to wear a tuxedo since high school prom
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18:22:13  <Arveen> anyone using HexChat on Windows ?
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18:26:46  <supermop_work_> i tried
18:26:51  <supermop_work_> didn't work
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18:27:03  <supermop_work_> this was a couple years ago
18:27:33  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: IT IS ISO 27001:2013 AUDIT TOMORROW!
18:27:48  <andythenorth> it's like christmas for andythenorth
18:27:57  <Arveen> i switched to darkmode on windows and hexchat is still bright - i guess darkmode is just for uwp apps or something ?
18:29:35  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so does the python C binary thing work? o_O
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18:34:58  <supermop_work_> can i wear gortex sneakers with a suit and have it still count as 'cocktail attire'
18:35:34  <supermop_work_> now that i don't have to wear dressy clothes for work anymore i am done with cold /wet feet
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18:37:48  <supermop_work_> peter1138: do you have egg-beaters / toe clips?
18:38:24  <peter1138> I have SPD clips
18:38:29  <andythenorth> I used to have clips
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18:39:39  <supermop_work_> have any of you tried the chrome shoes that are like skate shoes with clips on the bottom?
18:40:26  <andythenorth> I used to have some like that, can't remember what brand
18:40:36  <andythenorth> unless they're thoroughly rigid you're winning almost nothing
18:40:43  <andythenorth> SPD into a floppy shoe is a waste of time imho
18:41:01  <andythenorth> and if you're only riding a few miles in a city, SPD is a waster of time full stop
18:41:14  * andythenorth has reformed, and is now back on totally flat pedals
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18:41:34  <supermop_work_> i've actually heard the chrome shoes are so stiff they kind of dont work as street / skate shoes
18:41:45  <andythenorth> the ones I had were horrible to walk in
18:41:58  <andythenorth> negated the point, you wouldn't want to wear them all day
18:41:59  <supermop_work_> was wondering if they were one of those 'worst of both worlds' things
18:42:05  <andythenorth> so might as well just have cycle shoe
18:42:08  <supermop_work_> but they do make waterproof ones
18:42:32  <supermop_work_> hate riding in the rain / snow in the city
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18:43:06  <supermop_work_> i imagine you guys have no choice but to ride in the rain though
18:43:36  * andythenorth does not ride in the rain :P
18:44:06  <supermop_work_> i just put on trench coat and walk
18:44:42  <supermop_work_> umbrella > changing clothes at work
18:46:42  <andythenorth> 'taxi'
18:46:50  <supermop_work_> ha
18:46:51  <supermop_work_> no
18:47:19  <supermop_work_> taking cabs within manhattan is for people who want to watch the world burn
18:47:49  <andythenorth> if it rains, I often find I'm wfh :P
18:47:52  <supermop_work_> or want to watch the world pass you by as you sit in a jam of 10,000 other taxis and ubers
18:48:01  <andythenorth> I usually get more productive work done wfh anyway
18:48:40  <supermop_work_> i can do almost all of my job from home but my industry is weird about it because of 'studio culture'
18:50:02  <andythenorth> I go in to hang out
18:50:08  <andythenorth> and feel like a useful manager
18:50:14  <andythenorth> and spread culture
18:50:20  <andythenorth> but if I actually want to make any money
18:50:22  <andythenorth> I stay home
18:50:27  <supermop_work_> how far do firs vehicle dealers have to be from city center? is it a fixed amount of tiles?
18:50:35  <andythenorth> dunno :)
18:50:51  <andythenorth> you using v3?
18:51:20  <andythenorth> it uses the default OpenTTD 'IND_FLAG_BUILT_NEAR_TOWN' in v3
18:51:47  <Arveen> btw: is FIRS4 a thing ? i read some lines a couple of days ago but can't remember exactly
18:53:11  <supermop_work_> ah hmm. my city is now too big
18:54:21  <supermop_work_> and anywhere i can fit a station to drop of vehicles is too far away from city center
18:56:54  <andythenorth> Arveen
18:58:39  <andythenorth> I should finish v4
18:58:49  <andythenorth> but I keep doing OpenTTD docs and crap instead :)
18:59:13  <Arveen> is there a write up on the forums what the goals are for v4 ?
19:00:12  <andythenorth> not sure
19:01:27  <andythenorth> let's say 'no'
19:02:09  <Arveen> hehe, Ok
19:02:54  <frosch123> i would guess the main feature is industries with more than 3 input or output cargos
19:03:20  <Arveen> i still haven't  done a game on v3 extreme .... might be time for that over the holidays
19:03:22  <frosch123> or the realisation that they are not fun :p
19:03:48  <andythenorth> they are fun :)
19:03:50  <andythenorth> I was sceptical
19:04:12  <andythenorth> but surprisingly, MOAR is better
19:04:16  <Arveen> i agree
19:04:20  <andythenorth> as long as you want to connect loads of stuff
19:04:28  <Arveen> and for drop i just use one station anyway
19:04:42  <andythenorth> don't play extreme though, it's awful
19:04:56  <andythenorth> extreme is a case were MOAR is worse
19:05:14  <andythenorth> also quak
19:05:30  <Arveen> i enjoyed that steel-town setting
19:05:57  <andythenorth> steeltown is significantly more intense in v4
19:06:59  <supermop_work_> steeltown is the best 'city' industry set so far
19:07:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: (dunno if you can help) I am trying to figure out what to do about eints
19:07:36  <andythenorth> the 'problem' is I feel bad seeing people make translation commits that aren't then used, I have 3 possible ideas
19:07:51  <andythenorth> (1) delete my projects from eints, it's not documented how to
19:08:03  <andythenorth> (2) manually copy the changes from the devzone hg repos to git
19:08:14  <andythenorth> (but that doesn't work in reverse)
19:08:37  <andythenorth> (3) try and persuade someone to make changes to eints, but I'm not sure what they should be, if at all
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19:13:12  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7850: Change: [hotkeys] add missing keycodes for hotkeys.cfg
19:16:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
19:22:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
19:26:33  <frosch123> andythenorth: sorry, i wanted to migrate that stuff weeks ago
19:28:22  <andythenorth> :)
19:28:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
19:30:46  <andythenorth> anything I can do to help?
19:31:18  * andythenorth BIAB
19:32:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes
19:32:19  <LordAro> parameter still needs documenting though
19:33:01  <frosch123> a whole commit needs to be dropped :)
19:33:12  <frosch123> though iirc eddi was waiting for test cases
19:33:13  <LordAro> or that, yes :p
19:33:40  <LordAro> would be nice to get all of the PRs from 2018 closed before 2020 :p
19:33:45  <andythenorth> I might make some test cases later
19:34:03  <andythenorth> that forum post contains some actual real world problems, instead of me just guessing
19:34:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro reopened issue #7311: Wrong determination of personal directory
19:35:16  <frosch123> "real world problems" :)
19:35:22  <LordAro> i'm not entirely convinced #7311 is actually a bug
19:35:30  <LordAro> just a bit of an oddity about how paths are handled
19:38:45  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: enjoy :) Don't smile too much :P
19:43:13  <frosch123> LordAro: 7311 only applies if you do not have libxdgbasedir
19:43:44  <frosch123> so the code is probably untested, and probably also follows some legacy behaviour
19:57:42  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: the biggest problem is knowing 'stop talking now'
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20:19:22  <andythenorth> this is remarkable
20:19:29  <andythenorth> it cost 4m Euro
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20:34:07  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on issue #7311: Wrong determination of personal directory
20:34:12  <frosch123> meh, so much text
20:35:11  <frosch123> also, nothing is easy :p
20:36:15  <LordAro> :)
20:36:28  <andythenorth> drawing pixels for trains is easy
20:36:38  <andythenorth> everything else seems to be hard :P
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20:39:05  <frosch123> are these "add reaction emoticon to post" useful for strucuring? or are they just social bs?
20:39:15  <LordAro> mostly just social bs
20:39:25  <LordAro> they help prevent "+1" and "me too" comments though
20:40:16  <frosch123> how silly, i can add them to my own posts :p
20:45:57  <andythenorth> they confuse me
20:46:15  <andythenorth> I start typing :) for "it's just the internet, we're all friends"
20:46:25  <andythenorth> and I get some weird list of unrelated emojis
20:48:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone opened pull request #7852: Feature: Show the name of the NewGRF in the build vehicle window.
20:48:25  <supermop_work_> i appreciate the variety of monorail and gondola emoji
20:48:39  <frosch123> can't you see that in the debug newgrf gui?
20:51:10  <andythenorth> not from buy menu
20:51:19  <andythenorth> I have failed to see why it's necessary though
20:51:22  <andythenorth> empathy failure :P
20:52:04  <frosch123> hmm, i see a draw back of the purchase list tree groups
20:52:09  <andythenorth> only one?
20:52:37  <frosch123> stations used to be grouped by usage, then people started grouping them by newgrf (because stuff from other authors is bad?)
20:52:45  <frosch123> same will happen with purchase list
20:53:20  <frosch123> Program Files/Newgrf vendor/Newgrf set/Vehicle
20:55:12  <andythenorth> I anticipated that one :P
20:55:42  <andythenorth> I'm still not convinced by the tree idea, and it was my idea :P
20:56:35  <andythenorth> something is weird about it
20:56:57  <andythenorth> it's a very convoluted way to choose a livery :P
20:57:07  <frosch123> apis are good if they can be used for stuff that was not anticipated, apis are bad if they can be used for stuff that was not intended :)
20:57:49  <andythenorth> I did draw the most logical solution, based on committee decision of need
20:57:49  <andythenorth>
20:57:55  <andythenorth> but nobody seemed to like it :(
20:58:02  <frosch123> andythenorth: i understood the suggestion that the tree node represents the last-built leaf, so you only need to expand if you really want to
20:58:26  <andythenorth> yes
20:58:34  <andythenorth> that was one of the appealing things
20:58:42  <andythenorth> the spec so far appears to be:
20:59:06  <andythenorth> (for the livery goal, not the groups option to achieve it)
20:59:10  <andythenorth> - cannot use a hidden UI mechanism like ctrl-click
20:59:23  <andythenorth> - cannot use existing liveries (cargo subtypes)
20:59:35  <andythenorth> - must be obvious to player
20:59:41  <andythenorth> - must be per vehicle
21:00:01  <andythenorth> I thought the drop-downs mockup fulfilled all of those, but apparently it's not liked :P
21:00:15  <frosch123> - must not have the same issues as cargo subtypes
21:00:33  <andythenorth> - must include different, new, more interesting issues than cargo subtypes
21:00:51  <andythenorth> the killer for me on the tree idea is....
21:01:08  <andythenorth> ...I could already just implement the feature of different liveries using different IDs, without the tree
21:01:11  <andythenorth> but I haven't
21:01:34  <andythenorth> it wouldn't do much harm to have a few engines repeated with different appearance
21:01:51  <andythenorth> but somehow it's not compelling enough yet
21:03:00  <andythenorth> also it will kill my compile time :P
21:03:52  <andythenorth> I do already support 4 liveries for wagons though, just 1 buy menu entry :P
21:03:56  <andythenorth> random + depot flip
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21:12:22  <andythenorth> :o
21:12:24  <andythenorth> :)
21:14:22  <nielsm> of cour se has the minor issue that it obsoletes 15+ years of newgrf sprites
21:14:46  <nielsm> and throws all the artists work into the corner
21:14:52  <andythenorth> the 3rd thing I thought was 'can I redo FIRS for this?'
21:17:19  <Wolf01> <andythenorth> but nobody seemed to like it :( <- if only you could find a way to do the same without hiding the wagons...
21:17:52  <andythenorth> and yet the menu has to be big enough to not be hidden...
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21:21:22  <Wolf01> We need a bigger UI
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21:21:35  <andythenorth> :P
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21:21:47  <andythenorth> I suspect nobody finds the ctrl-click liveries in Horse 2
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21:21:57  <Wolf01> Ha!
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21:22:17  * andythenorth thinks of other ideas
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21:22:30  <supermop_work_> nielsm: idk if it actually would make anything obsolete
21:22:32  <LordArtoo> hmm
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21:23:28  <supermop_work_> could you just skin random boxes with stretched versions of the legacy sprites ?
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21:26:30  <FLHerne> andythenorth: You could add 'ctrl+click for different liveries' to the purchase description?
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21:27:05  <andythenorth> I could
21:27:06  <frosch123> supermop_work_: it works for all ground sprites, but for none of the building, industries, vehicles, ...
21:27:44  <frosch123> only ground sprites have a fixed/known shape so that you can treat the sprite like a texture
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21:28:05  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] grossws commented on pull request #7850: Change: [hotkeys] add missing keycodes for hotkeys.cfg
21:28:09  <frosch123> it's the same problem as for "rotate viewport by 90 degree" but more general
21:28:49  <andythenorth> how about ?
21:28:57  <andythenorth> click the 'livery' button and get a new mode
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21:29:07  <andythenorth> where simply clicking on the vehicle shows all the available options
21:29:17  <andythenorth> modes work so well in UI :P
21:29:24  <frosch123> also, ttd uses a lot of fake 3d, where dimensions are totally off. like vehicles actually not fitting under bridges
21:29:52  <andythenorth> nice tech demo though :)
21:30:13  <frosch123> it could be named "3TTD" :p
21:30:56  <andythenorth> 3TTD 2
21:31:10  <andythenorth> the video does look good
21:33:32  * andythenorth invents a tool
21:33:44  <andythenorth> that can be selected, then click on vehicles to change livery :P
21:33:50  <andythenorth> a spanner!
21:33:57  <andythenorth> and a paintbrush!
21:34:04  <andythenorth> one changes stats, the other colours
21:34:39  <andythenorth> oh we could add an oil can!
21:34:50  <andythenorth> and make servicing a micro-management task
21:36:45  <frosch123> just use the vehicle refit tool
21:37:03  <frosch123> you are reinventing cargo subtypes
21:37:14  <andythenorth> it has the wrong icon!
21:37:19  <andythenorth> that's just silly frosch123
21:37:20  <frosch123> the problem of cargo subtypes is not the name "cargo subtype"
21:38:16  <andythenorth> which of the various problems are we going to mention? :)
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21:38:41  <andythenorth> I have already drawn an oilcan icon, now I will have to delete it :(
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21:40:18  <FLHerne> andythenorth: FWIW, it's not unrealistic for DVTs to add power - Chiltern have gensets in theirs, which avoids ETS being drawn from traction power
21:40:32  <andythenorth> same for cabbage in USA
21:41:05  <andythenorth> I made my peace with it :)
21:41:28  <FLHerne> There's also this thing, of course
21:41:46  <andythenorth> yes :)
21:41:50  <andythenorth> JCB?
21:42:12  <FLHerne> Yes
21:43:24  <FLHerne> Why is the Happy Train a diesel railcar?
21:43:53  <andythenorth> alternate universe :P
21:43:54  <FLHerne> The One True Happy Train is the 365, and that's electric :P
21:44:05  <andythenorth> I drew it before nielsm convinced me to add EMUs
21:44:10  <andythenorth> and named it :P
21:45:11  <andythenorth> I would say 'mistakes were made' but it's more just evolution :P
21:47:19  * andythenorth wonders if users could paint their own livery
21:47:43  <andythenorth> treat the colour as HSV, only modify the H value
21:47:50  <andythenorth> per pixel
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21:48:58  <FLHerne> Aaaaa
21:56:18  * andythenorth bed
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21:57:29  <milek7_> hm
21:57:30  <milek7_>
21:58:48  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] janisozaur opened pull request #7853: Improve MSVC ARM64 support
22:02:16  <frosch123> is that for old windows phones?
22:02:28  <frosch123> msvc+arm does not ring a bell for me
22:02:52  <DorpsGek_III_> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] janisozaur updated pull request #7853: Improve MSVC ARM64 support
22:03:27  <milek7_> microsoft sells some arm laptop
22:03:32  <nielsm> MS is being less locking down on running own software on arm machines now than ther were with win8
22:08:37  <supermop_work_> i read this as ' one arm laptop'
22:10:38  <milek7_> hm, not only microsoft it seems
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22:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause> grmpf, i won't be looking at #7000 now... remind me again like 3 days before christmas or so?
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