Log for #openttd on 23rd December 2019:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:00:04  <andythenorth> probably worth adding string for
00:00:36  <frosch123> there is no solution to fix the other flipped currently. the sprites are duplicates for nml since the nml cache does not care about offsets, but they are different for the grf
00:01:03  <andythenorth> I can possibly resolve the buy menu to same realsprite as default chain in many cases
00:01:28  <frosch123> maybe nml statistic could detect the 1x1 transparent sprites, and count them separate
00:02:06  <andythenorth> is it weird that we compile 8 realsprites for every purchase menu, but only use 2
00:02:09  <andythenorth> ?
00:02:31  <andythenorth> eh, I could resolve them all to 'foo.png'
00:02:59  <andythenorth> 1x1 blue png
00:03:54  <andythenorth> 5189 realsprites containing '8bpp 60 10 1 1 0 0 normal'
00:05:53  <andythenorth> hmm, that's not a quick fix, I'd have to not use nml templates
00:06:46  <andythenorth> oh, looks like I can't do that with nml
00:07:19  * andythenorth considers find and replace on nfo :P
00:08:04  <glx> dummy sprites ?
00:09:10  * andythenorth tries
00:09:41  <glx> don't know the effect but seems it's what you want
00:10:45  <andythenorth> that appears to work
00:12:27  <andythenorth>  nmlc info: 96272 sprites, 0 cached, 0 orphaned, 60313 duplicates, 35959 newly encoded (native)
00:12:38  <andythenorth> nmlc info: 91083 sprites, 35525 cached, 434 orphaned, 55558 duplicates, 0 newly encoded (native)
00:13:04  <glx> progress :)
00:13:42  <glx> 5000 1px sprites removed
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00:16:20  <andythenorth> pushed that :P
00:16:43  <frosch123> nmlc info: 96272 sprites, 0 cached, 0 orphaned, 5189 trivial, 55558 duplicates, 35525 newly encoded (native)
00:17:06  <frosch123> well, no need to count them, if glx can remove them :)
00:17:46  <glx> oh not on my side, I haven't start coding yet
00:17:49  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, you enable cropping for neither nmlc nor for grfcodec
00:17:59  <andythenorth> I'll change that now
00:18:23  <glx> would be nice to remove animated warnings if possible
00:18:52  <andythenorth> ok
00:19:10  <frosch123> you know the "ANIM" keyword in spritesets?
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00:20:01  <andythenorth> yes
00:20:08  <andythenorth> there is disabled support for it
00:21:50  * andythenorth forces it for now
00:24:33  <andythenorth> glx: pushed
00:34:21  * andythenorth must sleep :)
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00:41:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7868: Feature: NewGRF callback profiling
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00:42:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7868: Feature: NewGRF callback profiling
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00:52:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft
00:54:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft
00:54:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft
00:55:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft
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06:53:28  <andythenorth> I am an aircraft
06:53:38  <andythenorth> I have crashed
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06:54:20  <Pikka> don't you know soviet transports can land on the head of a pin? realism.
06:55:59  <andythenorth> VTOL
06:56:22  <Pikka> remove all aircraft but zellepins?
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07:02:12  <andythenorth> covered hopper zellepin!
07:03:24  <andythenorth> covered hopper zellepin!
07:05:39  <andythenorth> Pikka: pls can you draw my pig iron torpedo car zellepins thx
07:06:25  <Pikka> only if you want them in 32bpp ez :)
07:07:14  <andythenorth> I do, but can you just use 256 colours, and draw them small?
07:07:20  <andythenorth> thx in advance
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07:16:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft
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07:25:40  <andythenorth> Pikka: can Avix India land at small airports in 1.10?
07:25:42  <andythenorth> o_O
07:26:38  <Pikka> yes
07:26:55  <Pikka> in av9.8 all prop planes are small and all jet planes are large
07:27:23  <andythenorth> that makes them consistent with cheat wording I reckon
07:28:39  <Pikka> yes
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08:01:48  <andythenorth> sometimes I wonder which FIRS people play
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09:19:56  <andythenorth> hmm
09:20:04  <andythenorth> vehicle realsprites don't have to be 8
09:25:13  <Pikka> 8 directional sprites in a set you mean?
09:27:20  <andythenorth> yup
09:27:39  <andythenorth> nml made me forget anything I ever knew :)
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12:14:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation
12:14:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation
12:18:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency
12:24:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #7730: Change: Use vehicle model age for station rating calculation
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12:52:45  <andythenorth> is it Pikka?
12:52:59  * andythenorth had a 'No Stairway' rule for Horse
12:53:17  <andythenorth>
12:53:32  <andythenorth> no Garratts, no Deltics
12:53:41  * andythenorth is reconsidering the Garratt rule
12:53:51  <andythenorth> send answers on postcard, I'm going to pub
12:54:02  <andythenorth> high power freight engine is needed for 1930 :P
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12:56:53  <floodious> nearly have my multi-plane heightmap import working
12:57:25  <floodious> just lacks some perfection... seems to work except the forest density ranges aren't trimmed right yet
12:57:39  <floodious> but dense forests on a 4k map are so slow
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13:04:07  <peter1138> Is it salad-time, andythenorth?
13:12:34  <Pikka> pub salad?
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13:26:39  <Samu> oh, closed PR :(
13:30:59  <peter1138> Kitchenette salad.
13:31:40  <peter1138> Not enough time to go the pub for lunch. Besides, other temptations lie there...
13:33:16  <peter1138> Mmm, one mince pie... same carolies as my huge salad.
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13:34:05  <Samu> frosch ruined any hope of fixing this
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13:35:22  <peter1138> I'm glad you clarified which, but then again I don't particularly care either.
13:35:49  <Samu> snow line height really needs to be reduced
13:38:58  <peter1138> Good job it's an option you can change, eh?
13:40:22  <Samu> yes, but an out of the box openttd doesn't generate snow
13:40:43  <Samu> no forests
13:59:07  <Samu> very flat doesn't generate forests at all even with snowline at the lowest value
13:59:36  <Samu> maybe "very flat" needs not to be extremelly flat
13:59:41  <Samu> must investigate
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14:10:00  <peter1138> Just use the non-TGP generator.
14:10:06  <peter1138> Much nicer for those maps anyway.
14:10:54  <floodious> it makes more sense to aim for a better map generator using different methods
14:11:07  <floodious> for example the basic perlin noise works well... for heightmaps
14:11:53  <peter1138> I was working on improving it but then couldn't be bothered :p
14:12:09  <peter1138> But yes, it could do with modularity. Maybe even scriptable, if performance is not an issue.
14:13:40  <floodious> but such a system is not used to then build a watertable estimate using methods like slope -> flats or valley, which can then be used to generate a "surface water" or "moisture" density map, which can then be used to generate realistic forests via species selection and such based upon factors like: slope, altitude (alpine = pines, hemlock, sparse, ... ?), slope direction (northern slopes = cooler, shadow = lower light intensity)
14:13:43  <Samu> with a default of 15, non-tgp also doesn't generate forests
14:14:03  <floodious> i'm implementing such systems atm :)
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14:15:11  <floodious> the snowline feature has always been limited, since it only works in the one climate vs. being a generic feature
14:15:57  <floodious> these are mostly eye-candy... although forests play a part in increasing construction cost
14:18:47  <peter1138> Yeah, I had a standalone generator that used different methods to make terrain. Shearing, etc.
14:18:56  <peter1138> But it was slow, as it used FP math.
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14:22:59  <SpComb> what RV set fits best with classic DBSetXL?
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14:24:47  <Eddi|zuHause> germanrv
14:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> (also not on bananas)
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14:27:05  <andythenorth> yo
14:27:08  <andythenorth> is it lunch?
14:28:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you might have missed it
14:29:02  <floodious> yuley yule was the other day
14:31:27  * andythenorth will improvise
14:32:37  <Pikka> andythenorth, why a high power freight engine for 1930s? Bigger than 8Fey?
14:34:57  <andythenorth> I keep double heading the smaller ones
14:35:00  <andythenorth> probably fine
14:35:29  <andythenorth> actually what's missing is 1800HP general purpose engine
14:35:50  <andythenorth> and I need to learn how to draw steam engines, instead of copying and pasting yours :P
14:36:03  <andythenorth>
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14:47:20  <Samu> I have a different idea
14:47:35  <Samu> snowline of 2 has 2 problems with sub-arctic
14:47:40  <Samu> no farms and no forests
14:47:49  <Samu> I was thinking
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14:48:04  <Samu> remove the very flat option for arctic
14:48:23  <Samu> so, it starts at flat
14:48:50  <Samu> alternatively would be to make TG very flat preset, not so very flat
14:49:00  <nielsm> how about for arctic and tropical you always get a mixed landscape of the height variation you select mixed with the opposite of the height variation you select
14:49:01  <andythenorth> 9 year olds build strange things
14:49:02  <Samu> in order to be able to generate farms and forests
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14:49:33  <supermop_work> 9 already andythenorth ?
14:49:37  <supermop_work> time flies
14:49:40  <andythenorth> innit
14:49:43  <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: thanks, that's what I remember playing with
14:49:59  <nielsm> so if you select Very Flat, you get a mix of areas with Very Flat and Alpinist, selecting Flat gets a mix of Flat/Mountanous, and selecting Hilly gets just all Hilly
14:49:59  <andythenorth> he has used canal cheat to build train line across sea
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14:50:08  <andythenorth> and is now building aqueducts over it
14:50:08  <supermop_work> hell yeah
14:50:18  <supermop_work> pro move
14:50:46  <supermop_work> i guess i was 10 when i started playing TT
14:50:50  <supermop_work> 1994?
14:51:00  <nielsm> yeah 10-11 for me too
14:51:33  <supermop_work> a lot of building a giant pyramid mountain on which to crash as many kirby pauls as possible
14:51:44  <nielsm> received a copy of TTO on a set of floppies after a family gathering where an older cousin played the game with us younger kids
14:52:06  <supermop_work> i got it in a sale bin at best buy
14:52:18  <supermop_work> was less than 
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14:52:29  <nielsm> later I got a boxed TTO+WE as a suparmarket bargain
14:52:37  <debdog> prolly the best buy
14:53:33  <nielsm> and finally TTD as the windows version in the tycoon games collection (TTD, RCT, RRT2, was there one more in it?)
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14:56:58  <supermop_work> never played ttd
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15:05:11  <andythenorth> quak
15:05:48  <frosch123> moi
15:06:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7868: Feature: NewGRF callback profiling
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15:12:43  <Pikka> huh... okay. I see why naming a variable "in" might be a bad idea :)
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15:18:57  <SpComb> is it possible to change dedicated server game settings from the client GUI?
15:22:52  <frosch123> not from the gui, just from the client console
15:24:05  <SpComb> shame that the GUI doesn't show the actual setting name, then
15:29:57  <andythenorth> frosch123: small improvement
15:30:10  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7868: Feature: NewGRF callback profiling
15:30:11  <andythenorth> takes ~2MB off filesize; compile time change is negligible
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15:34:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: some of the duplicates are unavoidable, as they're the same offsets, but the block of 8 realsprites are ordered differently
15:34:32  <andythenorth> I tried writing a python script to analyse it, but list.find is achingly slow over 55k items :P
15:35:04  <glx> there's also a bunch of template duplicates ;)
15:35:32  <andythenorth> yes, I was trying to figure out a simple way to remove those
15:35:42  <andythenorth> without making the templates very hard to work with
15:35:57  <glx> I started to analyse them, so I merge duplicates, then I can analyse spritesets
15:36:41  <andythenorth> I did consider writing a duplicate resolver and inserting it between nml and grfcodec :P
15:36:45  <andythenorth> but eh, I'm not that good :)
15:37:40  <andythenorth> it's probably just reassigning references eh
15:40:27  <Samu> I just discovered something else, the min snow line height on original must be 4
15:40:32  <Samu> on terragenesis must be 3
15:40:43  <Samu> or else, farms fail to spawn
15:41:31  <Samu> adding injury to that, very flat terrain on terragenesis fails both farms and forests, the height is just too low
15:41:45  <Samu> what to do?
15:42:58  <frosch123> i wondered about making nml print even more numbers, like number of pseudosprites, bytes in code, bytes in graphics, number of action2s,...
15:43:07  <frosch123> but i guess i am just a spreadsheet nerd
15:43:40  <SpComb> hmm, you can't change vehicle.freight_trains during network games?
15:44:17  <frosch123> noone bothered to make the change-settings command reload newgrfs
15:44:23  <Samu> gonna post my findings
15:44:32  <frosch123> i think it's possible, just noone did it
15:48:24  <frosch123> ofc, with the right newgrf, yuo can also just crash all clients at the same time :p
15:49:29  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am liking the numbers
15:57:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on issue #7872: Default openttd.cfg world gen settings don't allow Forests in Sub-Arctic
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16:01:43  <nielsm>
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16:08:45  <peter1138> Ooo
16:08:48  <peter1138> Nice font, too.
16:09:05  <nielsm> it's tahoma
16:09:19  <peter1138> Old school :D
16:09:34  <frosch123> hmm, let's try whether i can convert that csv to something kcachegrind can read
16:09:40  <nielsm> I tried a bunch and found that one looked the best as high-res font in game :)
16:10:47  <andythenorth> :)
16:12:36  <peter1138> Remember when *everything* used Tahoma? I think that's why nobody uses it now :-)
16:12:44  <peter1138> Tahoma and Verdana, very much out of fashion now.
16:12:54  <nielsm> hmm... so many ways a GRF can be "active" with this
16:12:59  <andythenorth> oof, don't 'tidy up' history when you've already pushed :D
16:12:59  <nielsm> or "loaded"
16:13:06  * andythenorth got shafted by conflicts :)
16:13:27  <nielsm> "loaded" as in the game has detected it and it can be used for games/activated in the newgrf configuration window
16:13:28  <andythenorth> rebase -i is lolz in the hands of idiots like me
16:13:43  <nielsm> "loaded" as in it's currently in use and active in the game
16:13:51  <nielsm> "active" can also mean the latter
16:14:14  <nielsm> and "active" can mean it's currently collecting profiling data, or that it's selected for profiling and can be started
16:14:38  <nielsm> I guess "available", "loaded", "active", "selected" ?
16:15:51  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7868: Feature: NewGRF callback profiling
16:17:16  <Samu> alpinist is hard to configure
16:17:21  <Samu> requires map size
16:53:51  <frosch123> nielsm: all the grfids are printed in reversed byte order
16:54:50  <nielsm> bah
16:56:16  * glx just added 450 warning lines to the huge amount of warning lines
16:56:45  <frosch123> 1.6 GB profile date for one month of NUTS in PSG325 :)
16:56:53  <frosch123> *data
16:58:50  <nielsm> hurrah for 64 bit
16:59:49  <frosch123> oh, i thought it would trace all switches
17:00:33  <frosch123> ok, so no callgrind graphs then
17:00:54  <nielsm> yeah it just counts depth, doesn't capture it
17:02:41  <frosch123> hmm, microseconds is often "1"
17:02:57  <nielsm> I have considered switching it to nanoseconds
17:03:08  <frosch123> 0 to 4
17:03:38  <frosch123> i guess for a statistical analysis it's good enough
17:05:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7871: Fix: Snowline height interval is now 1, in both World Generation and Settings windows
17:05:21  <glx> ok handling of duplicate templates seems to work
17:05:33  <glx> next step the duplicate spritesets
17:06:55  <andythenorth> glx: switched to pypy yet btw? :)
17:07:00  * andythenorth waited about 4 years too long
17:07:19  <glx> no I don't mind the slow compile
17:07:28  <glx> it's still faster than building openttd :)
17:10:45  <andythenorth> glx: so I shouldn't optimise away your test cases :)
17:10:54  * andythenorth considering making crazy templates to drop unused things :P
17:11:05  <glx> oh there's enough test cases left I think
17:12:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7870: Doc: improved english tooltips draft
17:15:55  <LordAro> frosch123: add an enum type to #7863 (railtype fixes), or just shipit?
17:19:46  <frosch123> i started a branch to add enums for all settings, about 60, but it's kind of boring :p
17:20:35  <floodious> would c-string identifiers work?
17:21:22  <floodious> for less frequently accessed data, i use a string-based database with hierarchical maps (string id -> string data + child nodes)
17:22:29  <floodious> the overhead for interpreting strings is quite alright if they're config values that can be read and cached in native format by the object reading them
17:22:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7859: Feature #7756: Allow server to supply a reason to kicked/banned clients
17:22:49  <LordAro> frosch123: i'll just merge for now then :)
17:23:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7863: Various tracktype related fixes
17:23:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7863: Various tracktype related fixes
17:27:44  <floodious> config.find("client.gui.default.rail-type") == config["client"]["gui"]["default"]["rail-type"]
17:29:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7851: Change: add support for next/previous railtype global hotkeys
17:30:08  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7845: Add: a TextColour flag to ignore colour changes from strings
17:30:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7845: Add: a TextColour flag to ignore colour changes from strings
17:30:29  * andythenorth wonders what to optimise next :P
17:30:43  <andythenorth> or whether to add more vehicles, and unoptimise all benefits :P
17:31:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7788: Doc: Convert known_bugs.txt to markdown format
17:31:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed pull request #7788: Doc: Convert known_bugs.txt to markdown format
17:32:33  <floodious> a couple things i've noticed are seriously lacking for newgrfs are: hierarchical organization + versioning, and detailed information about what exactly they do included directly in the interface
17:32:56  <andythenorth> LordAro: oof :)
17:33:02  <floodious> so there might be 15 different versions of the same newgrf with different names, for example
17:33:46  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7853: Improve MSVC ARM64 support
17:33:51  <floodious> adding "tags" like "obsolete"/"compatibility" might help by hiding them from indexing by default
17:33:56  <LordAro> andythenorth: <3
17:34:12  <andythenorth> I tend to agree about md, I find it ugly, but I lost that argument to TB :)
17:34:16  <andythenorth> so eh
17:34:35  <andythenorth> these 'human readable, but only if you don't mind ugly' text formats :P
17:35:59  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
17:37:20  <andythenorth> cleaning house LordAro?
17:37:24  <andythenorth> 1.10?
17:37:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders
17:37:56  <LordAro> andythenorth: well if we're doing a (beta) release in 2 days...
17:38:19  <andythenorth> I was going to release a grf for christmas
17:38:23  <andythenorth> but...I didn't :)
17:38:25  <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: pls can we get #7000 done? :)
17:38:27  <LordAro> pls pls pls?
17:38:31  <floodious> usual cycle includes a "release candidate" = "feature freeze" period
17:39:02  <andythenorth> was I the blocker to 7000?
17:39:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro dismissed a review for pull request #7424: Add: Kdtree for AirportGetNearestTown
17:39:26  <andythenorth> hmm 7000
17:39:43  <LordAro> andythenorth: last time i checked eddi had to remove a commit from the PR
17:40:10  <nielsm> floodious: feature freeze here is after branching
17:40:31  <LordAro> nielsm: review #7424 ?
17:40:39  <andythenorth> hmm
17:40:39  <LordAro> looks happy to me
17:40:54  <LordAro> floodious: we branch then release RC1, indeed
17:41:08  <LordAro> then we can break everything in master again
17:41:14  <floodious> hurray.
17:41:20  * floodious loves the breaking
17:43:00  <LordAro> andythenorth: also keen to get the majority of the remaining language changes in as early as possible
17:44:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency
17:44:42  <LordAro> oh wait, it conflicts
17:44:47  <LordAro> ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
17:45:40  * glx created most of the conflicts
17:45:45  <glx> I think
17:46:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load
17:46:28  <LordAro> glx: i presume so :p
17:46:40  <LordAro> i'd like someone else to review ^
17:47:06  <nielsm> I keep finding my title for #7353 ridiculous, just because it's five long words in a row
17:47:37  <LordAro> :)
17:52:21  <andythenorth> frosch123: well...this reduces 8/8 sprites :)
17:52:27  <andythenorth> might be regrettable :)
17:52:57  <andythenorth> we have feedback on 1.9 btw, the multiple docks are very liked ;P
17:53:04  <andythenorth> 9 year olds
17:53:19  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7424: Add: Kdtree for AirportGetNearestTown
17:53:34  <andythenorth> he immediately built an island and attached loads of docks to it
17:54:07  <nielsm> I should stop reviewing code and get over to the supermarket before it gets entirely cleared
17:54:17  <nielsm> three days with (almost) no stores open ahead
17:54:23  <LordAro> andythenorth: :D
17:54:45  <andythenorth> nielsm: important not to starve
17:54:51  <andythenorth> fundamentals :)
17:57:51  <Samu> wasn't terragenesis supposed to create really high maps?
17:58:07  <Samu> i created a script to get the highest tile height I can find on a map
17:58:11  <Samu> i get 71
17:58:27  <andythenorth> which climate?
17:58:33  <Samu> arctic
17:58:39  <Samu> Alpinist
17:58:42  <andythenorth> TGP has various 'flatten' things
17:58:44  <Samu> max height of 255
17:58:47  <Samu> 4096x4096
17:58:48  <andythenorth> code is documented
17:59:01  * andythenorth can't remember which does what, but it's all there to read
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17:59:39  <Samu> must find that
18:00:04  <andythenorth> tgp.cpp
18:00:15  <andythenorth> start around line 230 or so
18:01:01  <Samu> thx
18:01:26  * andythenorth wonders about replacing TGP with a height map generator :P
18:01:34  <andythenorth> fractals!
18:04:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #7800: Easier access for vehicles' group window.
18:04:44  <Samu> says at line 234 I should get a max height of 87
18:04:49  <Samu> I can't get that :(
18:05:03  <peter1138> So the problem with high maps is they don't work at all because there's no cliffs.
18:05:07  <frosch123> nielsm: writing the 1.6 GB file actually took so long, that the files from different grfs have different HHMM
18:05:28  <frosch123> that makes it hard to match the files in a script
18:05:33  <peter1138> Everything is smoothed out due to only 1 height difference between each tile, and the balance towards sea-level.
18:05:41  <Samu> nevermind, iwas doing mountainous, not alpinist :(
18:06:33  <floodious> the fixed difference means to get a height of 255 means you'd need a width of minimally 256
18:06:40  <floodious> since the only slope is 45 degrees
18:07:20  <peter1138> floodious, so can you implement floods? ;)
18:07:25  <peter1138> (River flow!)
18:07:29  <floodious> yeah, already
18:08:05  <Samu> more like 512
18:08:12  <floodious> i'm still improving it, moved on to doing heightmap + lakes + rivers + surface water runoff maps = generating realistic forests, etc
18:09:03  <floodious> samu: ah, i meant half the slope, but yeah twice that to get both sides, so 512x512 would only barely reach 255 at the very center with all tiles fully sloped
18:09:16  <floodious> ~63 is a more realistic height range
18:10:03  <floodious> peter1138; mostly i just flood the irc channel here
18:10:10  <peter1138> :D
18:10:30  <peter1138> A 255 high 512x512 map would be pretty boring.
18:10:50  <floodious> hey, don't badmouth the Egyptians
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18:11:08  <floodious> even though tetrahedrons are way cooler
18:11:13  <peter1138> I'd like more than 255 levels in Minecraft though.
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18:12:06  <floodious> tetrahedrons really are way cooler, if you're cooling a volume, since they have the maximum surface area to volume ratio
18:13:12  <LordAro> peter1138: they already doubled it, what more do you want? :p
18:13:30  <peter1138> 16 bit? ;-)
18:13:31  <LordAro> hmm, that was like 5 years ago
18:13:38  <peter1138> Imagine the memory consumption of that, heh...
18:13:59  <peter1138> Also 64km would be somewhat excessive.
18:14:20  <LordAro> you'd be falling for an hour
18:14:23  <floodious> we're 64-bit these days, 52-bit mantissa? so 4503599627370496 levels?
18:14:28  * andythenorth tries some heightmap generators
18:14:35  <andythenorth> they don't really work, they're all realistic
18:14:49  <LordAro> andythenorth: find one with a "no cliffs" option :p
18:14:56  <andythenorth> they're all kind of meh
18:15:03  <andythenorth> sometimes I try the original map gen for lolz
18:15:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
18:16:37  <andythenorth> original is sad :)
18:16:54  <andythenorth> in some ways it's a really nice not-too-realistic game world
18:17:06  <andythenorth> and in other ways it's horribly not-realistic, square edges everywhere
18:17:18  <peter1138> Original can be nice with the right settings.
18:17:24  <andythenorth> original spanks TGP for tropic
18:17:49  <andythenorth> it makes really nice forested hills and oases
18:17:58  <LordAro> almost as if it were designed for it
18:18:02  <peter1138> As if!
18:18:08  * peter1138 ponders prepping dinrar.
18:18:12  <floodious> andythenorth: <-- this one is nice, but I've added red = height, green = moisture, blue = sea/lake/river
18:18:30  <floodious> it's still missing a ton of river courses and lakes
18:19:00  <peter1138> Ooo
18:20:07  <floodious> it's quite quick to use image editing software to draw pixel-art level detail to fix up issues... but i'm still working on my patches to the heightmap import to make it work ideally
18:20:37  <andythenorth> maybe we should improve original map gen
18:21:11  <andythenorth> original offers much more involved building in a smaller space
18:21:23  <andythenorth> the terrain tends to vary more
18:21:32  <floodious> it's hard to improve without making things extremely complex, and to generate a good map it's a difficult balance of realism vs. play-ability where they two are really in conflict
18:21:44  <andythenorth> they really are
18:21:56  <andythenorth> TGP tends to big boring lumps of hill, and flat plains
18:22:06  <andythenorth> it's not very game-like
18:22:14  <andythenorth> might be ok for model trains
18:22:25  <milek7_> could we now have cliffs with 3D renderer? ;)
18:22:45  <Samu> i feel like tweaking that table
18:23:10  <Samu> there's not a single 6 there, any special reason
18:23:26  <glx> nmlc is so slow when I add print() everywhere
18:23:27  <floodious> cliffs are an engine issue, not a rendering issue (although they are too, with bitmap/tile graphic sources)... doing a flexible slope feature would really be a whole new game
18:24:04  <Samu> the minimum value you got there is 3, i tested 3, 4, 5 and 7
18:24:17  <Samu> all fail to generate forests except 7
18:24:28  <Samu> i suppose 6 will be the better minimum for forests
18:25:08  <Samu> it kind of makes "very flat" more like "flat"
18:27:16  <Samu> i think 6 will work, must test
18:27:17  <Samu> brb
18:28:46  * andythenorth removes the 8/8 spriteset optimiser
18:29:37  <glx> lol my log file is too big for notepad++
18:31:49  <floodious> 8mb?
18:32:04  <glx> almost 500MB
18:32:41  <floodious> log_level = insaneverbose
18:32:55  <floodious> 1.21 giggabits
18:33:23  <Samu> 64x64 arctic always fail
18:33:36  <glx> because forests ?
18:33:51  <Samu> either forests, printing works, farms etc...
18:33:54  <Samu> too tight space
18:34:49  <Samu> 6 is the absolute minimum to have everything generated on arctic
18:35:19  <Samu> I thinkg removing Very Flat from arctic is a better option
18:36:05  <Samu> the other option is raising all those 3 from Very Flat into 6
18:36:58  <Samu> then snowline must be 3
18:37:07  <Samu> a snowline of 2 always fails for farms
18:39:46  <Samu> something like this: {   6,   6,   6,   6,   7,   8,   9 }, ///< Very flat
18:40:04  <Samu> line 230 tgp.cpp
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18:45:58  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
18:45:58  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:46:32  <Samu> I think i prefer the removal of very flat from arctic
18:53:00  * andythenorth wonders whether to save a few thousand more sprites :P
19:02:01  <supermop_work> eh
19:19:47  <supermop_work> quiet at office
19:21:07  <Wolf01> Yeah... "boss, I finished my work" "ok" "what could I do for the remaining 2 hours?" "ok"
19:21:15  <Wolf01> I did ok
19:22:49  * andythenorth had an idea
19:22:59  <andythenorth> I don't love it, but I tried to give it a fair go
19:31:34  <andythenorth> ^ if that used IDs it would be auto-replace compatible
19:31:44  <andythenorth> I'd propose putting the livery on a new text cb
19:32:17  <andythenorth> it could also put some fancy user bits into the vehicle alternately
19:48:47  <peter1138> That old chestnut, eh?
19:49:38  <glx> hmm I count 714 duplicate spritesets
19:54:52  <andythenorth> I could make more?
19:54:56  <andythenorth> that's not very many
19:55:42  <glx> now let's try the optimisation
19:56:53  <nielsm> glx: also interesting if the sprite deduplication can help switches become identical and get merged/simplified
19:57:40  <glx> that's why I started with templates, and now spritesets
20:05:08  <Samu> i want to access those values in the table via genworld_gui.cpp
20:05:20  <Samu> must share the table
20:05:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7871: Fix: Snowline height interval is now 1, in both World Generation and Settings windows
20:07:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh merged pull request #7595: Possible fix for #7430: when train visits station, only reset time_since_pickup if has room to load
20:07:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #7430: Vehicle waiting at station affects cargo age rating even if it did not pick up cargo
20:11:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone dismissed a review for pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
20:11:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone updated pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
20:17:14  <andythenorth> the 9 year old said it's silly having ctrl-click for painted liveries
20:17:22  <andythenorth> he said I should just put them in the buy menu :P
20:19:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
20:19:22  <frosch123> smart kid
20:21:49  <andythenorth> he thinks ctrl-click is for swapping the company colour
20:23:26  <andythenorth> I'm not convinced about making the main buy menu 8x longer :P
20:24:06  <FLHerne> andythenorth: There should be different depot types for each real-world or fictional operator
20:24:24  <andythenorth> railtypes? :P
20:24:30  <FLHerne> So you can only buy LMS trains in LMS depots
20:24:39  <andythenorth> 'DB Schenker' railtype
20:24:42  <FLHerne> Yeah, possible already, just a stupid idea :P
20:24:45  <andythenorth> that's such a horrible and totally workable idea
20:24:45  <FLHerne> Exactly
20:27:11  <andythenorth> how many railtypes now? :P
20:27:57  <frosch123> andythenorth: what's the problem with a long purchase list? should it automatically scroll to the middle (between latest engine and first wagon) on opening?
20:29:15  <andythenorth> frosch123: try Iron Horse 2 with 'engines never expire'? :)
20:30:18  <andythenorth> actually the main issue is just mis-clicking :P
20:30:33  <andythenorth> and the time to scroll to find things
20:33:50  <Samu> just found another issue, the max snowline height is -3 of the max height level, in order to have forests
20:33:55  <Samu> instead of -2
20:36:41  <Samu> with maximum height being 15, the highest tile is of height 14
20:37:12  <Samu> it generates like that
20:37:24  <Samu> it's not really 15, but 14
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20:38:45  <Samu> on the original, 15 is really 15
20:38:55  <Samu> seems like a bug with terragenesis only
20:41:10  <Samu> let me try larger map
20:43:39  <Samu> same issue:
20:45:01  <Samu> oops, better link
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20:48:46  <Samu> land generator original:
20:48:51  <Samu> does right
20:50:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh dismissed a review for pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency
20:50:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh updated pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency
20:50:38  <nielsm> LordAro: rebased and squashed
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20:52:21  <LordAro> :)
20:53:23  <Samu> gonna try this on line 238 tgp.cpp
20:53:26  <Samu> return I2H(min(max_height_from_table, + 1));
20:53:31  <Samu> a +1 at the end
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20:56:48  <Samu> 15 now
20:57:04  <Samu> I wonder if this +1 breaks something somewhere
21:12:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
21:30:56  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #7875: Fix: TerraGenesis was not generating maps at the requested maximum height
21:35:41  <glx> debugging my code is so slow, and of course the stuff I need to debug happens at the end of the preprocessing phase
21:37:00  <andythenorth> :)
21:38:42  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 commented on pull request #7875: Fix: TerraGenesis was not generating maps at the requested maximum height
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21:41:18  <andythenorth> oof 90 trains, 17 road vehicles in my game
21:41:24  <andythenorth> so glad I made that big RV set ;D
21:41:53  <frosch123> blame firs. the author removed farm clusters, so rv feeders are pointless
21:42:28  <andythenorth> I do blame FIRS
21:42:38  <andythenorth> and NRT
21:42:47  <frosch123> also, remove those cargo acceptance limits from firs :p
21:43:36  <andythenorth> I should
21:43:41  <andythenorth> they are confusing
21:43:47  <andythenorth> I can't even find them
21:43:51  <andythenorth> how confusing is that?
21:44:21  <frosch123> probably some ai taking over
21:46:15  <andythenorth> probably the default one
21:46:35  <frosch123> good one :)
21:47:29  <Samu> seems that max snow line height is -2 of max height level with the fix
21:47:41  <Samu> gotta test
21:49:12  <Samu> confirmed
21:49:16  <Samu> -2 now
21:50:10  * andythenorth plays OpenTTD
21:50:33  <andythenorth> I enjoyed the 'optimise Iron Horse game', but I think I've played too much
21:51:07  <glx> it's a fun game :)
21:52:20  <andythenorth> I can play 'optimise FIRS' some time
21:53:09  <andythenorth> it's a 23s compile with mixed py3.8 / pypy
21:53:18  <andythenorth> if I use procedures, I think a lot of code can go
21:53:51  <glx> if only it was so fast for me
21:54:04  <andythenorth> oof :)
21:54:06  <glx> but I think my changes increase compilation time
21:54:16  <andythenorth> got a branch yet?
21:54:44  <glx> because checking duplicates means iterate loops
21:55:16  <glx> it's in the same branch as switches, but not pushed yet
21:55:23  <andythenorth> oh there's a new FIRS it seems
21:55:26  <andythenorth> how exciting
21:55:44  <andythenorth> maybe I can stop being the maintainer :)
21:55:59  <Samu> hmm that fix is slightly wrong :(
21:56:02  <Samu> brb
21:56:28  <frosch123> glx: can you compute some kind of hash? so that you can lookup duplicate candidates using it?
21:56:30  <glx> and printing all these warnings probably doesn't help
21:58:23  <nielsm> glx: can you perhaps pickle the intermediate preprocessed stuff from nmlc so skip some parts not relevant to your testing?
21:58:45  <andythenorth> oof
21:59:07  <andythenorth> ^ this resets my expectation of reddit back to normal
21:59:50  <frosch123> haha, print it and put it on a wall
21:59:56  <glx> but the error I need to debug (well for now I just want to know what it is) comes from early preprocessing, so I'll need to reprocess anyway
22:00:35  <andythenorth> newgrf is confusing eh
22:00:47  <andythenorth> but the clue is in "This are the sets I'm using. And I see one that it doesn't work (fatal problem)"
22:01:16  <glx> and of course last time I made a typo when writing the try-except to put a breakpoint on crash
22:01:43  <glx> and you can't know there's a typo until it reaches the code
22:02:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: i think there is an error popup every time the game is loaded. maybe it should popup every minute or so
22:02:18  <frosch123> just to annoy people to quit the game
22:02:25  <andythenorth> emoji
22:03:17  <glx> finally reached my breakpoint \o/
22:03:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] stormcone commented on pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering
22:03:32  <andythenorth> huzzah
22:03:40  <frosch123> andythenorth: anyway, the error does not matter, there is a fix just below it
22:04:07  <andythenorth> yes, that version of FIRS will work fine
22:04:17  <andythenorth> it's FIXED
22:07:01  <nielsm> yeah isn't that only for FIRS 1 ?
22:07:39  <frosch123> i doubt anyone but the author knows what it does
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22:09:26  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7875: Fix: TerraGenesis was not generating maps at the requested maximum height
22:10:17  <Samu> damn parenthesis
22:10:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] frosch123 closed pull request #7875: Fix: TerraGenesis was not generating maps at the requested maximum height
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22:14:42  <Samu> damn i edit too slow
22:15:03  <Samu> instead of return I2H(min(max_height_from_table, + 1));
22:15:10  <Samu> it's return I2H(min(max_height_from_table, + 1);
22:15:10  <glx> hmm ok the duplicate checks properly find duplicates, but it may replace spriteset refs with spritesets defined after the ref
22:18:19  <Samu> frosch123, I wanted to do this, but I was too slow
22:27:08  <Samu> yes, that's more like it
22:27:19  <Samu> now if it's 15 in the table, it's 15 in the outcome
22:27:31  <Samu> if it's 15 as user defined, it's 15 in the outcome
22:27:38  <Samu> both match
22:29:29  <Samu> but this results in a +1 to all heights from the table
22:31:30  <glx>  nmlc warning: ".\example_train.nml", line 137: Spriteset 'set_icm_purchase' is a duplicate of spriteset 'set_icm' defined at ".\example_train.nml", line 324, optimising. <-- that's a funny bug, but I know why so it should be easy
22:31:58  <glx> (and yes I have a smaller test case)
22:43:37  <Samu> difficult to make a good gui around snowline
22:44:06  <Samu> I'm trying the auto-adjustments to the snow line as the user changes the settings around
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22:46:35  * andythenorth considers adding more vehicles 
22:46:43  <andythenorth> the livery UI thing is blah blah
22:46:48  <frosch123> glx: you may run into the problem that nml cannot reference earlier spritesets when the ids expired. however there is a different action1 format which allows finer control over the scope of action1 ids. there is some initial diff in , though it does not much
22:47:27  <frosch123> andythenorth: what happened to the roster idea?
22:47:57  <andythenorth> by country?  or the railtype idea from earlier today?
22:48:07  <glx> the issue is solved, it's just because spriteset are registered before preprocessing, and I forgot to stop the loop if a spriteset finds itself
22:50:45  <Video_Game_Play> how i stop industries from shut down
22:51:35  <glx> you need to serve them, but oil wells will always shut down at some point
22:52:05  <nielsm> also when an industry has announced it is shutting down, there is nothing to do
22:52:51  <andythenorth> hmm
22:53:02  <andythenorth> how about using subtypes to set wagon livery?
22:53:12  <nielsm> primary industries shut down if their production falls to zero, secondary industries have a risk of shutting down every month if they haven't produced anything for 5 years
22:55:14  <glx> now retrying the slow test
22:58:13  <andythenorth> every game needs a carbon black hopper wagon
22:58:18  * andythenorth decides to split things up more
22:58:27  <glx> oh this early exit seems to also improve the speed :)
23:00:10  <glx> of course as pre_process progress, there's more existing stuff to check, so it's slowing
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23:03:11  <andythenorth> I tried to write a python duplicate checker this morning
23:03:26  <andythenorth> it basically choked on finding dupes in 55k lines
23:03:32  <andythenorth> oof :)
23:03:57  <glx> most duplicates are nested
23:07:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: usually you find duplicates by sorting
23:08:10  <andythenorth> I called set, which was fast
23:08:17  <glx> Preprocessing ... 585.2 s but still 45000 duplicates :(
23:08:18  <andythenorth> then tried count of the items in the set
23:08:25  <andythenorth> but that was horrific
23:08:47  <andythenorth> I didn't read more than one SO page about how to do it right :P
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23:09:23  <Eddi|zuHause> that works, if you can calculate a hash value of each entry
23:10:01  <Eddi|zuHause> but counting in a set is pointless, each entry is in a set at most once
23:10:26  <andythenorth> I used the set to get the items to count in the original list
23:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> the second insert is just ignored (or overwrites the first, depends...)
23:10:29  <andythenorth> it didn't work
23:10:36  <frosch123> glx: it won't get better, most of the duplicates are only half duplicates
23:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want to show the duplicates, you need a hashmap
23:11:02  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. a dict of lists
23:11:27  <frosch123> andy's flip feature requires to use the same sprite with different sprite offset
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23:11:52  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I abandoned the attempt as the frosch line runs in 3s :P
23:11:53  <andythenorth> grep generated/graphics iron-horse.nfo | sed 's/^[0-9]*//' | grep -v ' 1 1 0 0 normal' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n > dups.txt
23:11:53  <frosch123> "same sprite" means "identical for nml cache, i.e. duplicate", but "different sprite offsets" means different in grf
23:12:07  <andythenorth> ^ that is what I was going to try and tackle
23:12:18  <andythenorth> I wanted to parse to find blocks of realsprites
23:12:26  <andythenorth> and see if they're really duplicates or not
23:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i said first... you just sort
23:13:03  <andythenorth> yes
23:13:54  <andythenorth> It's probably 5 lines of python
23:14:00  <andythenorth> I just wrote 3 of them wrong
23:14:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #7353: Feature: Measure vehicle capacity utilisation efficiency
23:15:21  <andythenorth> oh, when you search random stuff and find your own product in the results :P
23:15:23  <andythenorth> oof
23:15:28  <glx> now running master nmlc, to compare
23:20:34  <glx> master: nmlc info: 84191 sprites, 35525 cached, 434 orphaned, 48666 duplicates, 0 newly encoded (native)
23:20:34  <glx> patched: nmlc info: 81130 sprites, 35525 cached, 434 orphaned, 45605 duplicates, 0 newly encoded (native)
23:21:29  <glx> and I don't check duplicates for spritegroups or switches yet
23:23:04  <nielsm>  <-- I wonder how to best test whether this is actually a performance benefit everywhere? just make builds with and without the change on various platforms and observe total game ticks time on some heavy saves?
23:23:48  <nielsm> (also it will need rewriting after the iterators change)
23:27:23  <nielsm>  <- anyone want to try backporting JGR's patches here?
23:31:11  <frosch123> usually i just go with valgrind and let it count number of instructions
23:31:35  <frosch123> measuring cache performance is pointless, as it changes chaotically with memory layout
23:31:59  <frosch123> s/valgrind/callgrind/
23:32:31  <nielsm> frosch123: I think it's as much about the platform specific cost of getting a high-resolution timer value
23:33:01  <frosch123> yeah, but callgrind does not measure, it counts
23:36:37  <Samu> check this out:
23:36:39  <Samu>
23:37:13  <Samu> tweaks to world generation gui, trying to be "smart" about snow_line_height, but hopefully not too intrusive
23:43:01  *** frosch123 has quit IRC
23:43:53  <Samu> who's gonna test?
23:44:35  <andythenorth> is bed
23:44:57  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
23:46:12  <Samu> it should be able to generate farms and forests on most cases
23:47:58  <Samu> except on tiny map size
23:48:05  <Samu> but that's to be expected
23:49:40  <Samu> I removed Very Flat terrain_type choice because it was only able to generate farms/forests when map size was 4096x4096
23:50:00  <Samu> I figured... well, very flat is bad for sub-arctic, so I disabled that choice
23:50:36  <Samu> off to bed, hope to get feedback, cyas
23:50:52  *** Samu has quit IRC
23:54:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro requested changes for pull request #7843: Industry directory cargo filtering

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