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Log for #openttd on 25th April 2020:
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00:04:33  *** Wormnest_ has quit IRC
00:05:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro updated pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml https://git.io/JfIhy
00:08:00  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml https://git.io/JfL5h
00:36:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] somini opened pull request #157: Include final URL https://git.io/JfLFY
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00:42:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml https://git.io/JfLFz
00:42:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/website] somini commented on pull request #157: Include final URL https://git.io/JfLF2
00:44:18  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml https://git.io/JfLFK
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00:49:44  <FLHerne> LordAro: Hm, I should try and get my nmlop changes finished and in before your huge reshuffle
00:49:56  <FLHerne> Otherwise rebasing them will be a nightmare :-/
00:53:58  <LordAro> FLHerne: but then *I* would have a nightmare rebase
00:54:00  <LordAro> :p
00:54:26  <LordAro> more pressingly, we need to release 0.5.0
00:54:43  <LordAro> even more pressingly, i should go to sleep
00:54:59  <FLHerne> Yeah, but yours is automated, and not done by a mixture of insane regexes that I lost months ago and hand-editing :P
00:56:09  <FLHerne> I don't quite get your comment on the PR about hand-editing the spaces; weren't they mostly aligned sanely to begin with?
00:56:44  <FLHerne> Sleep is a good idea
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06:46:57  <andythenorth> o/
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06:48:14  <TrueBrain> morning andythenorth
06:48:19  <Wolf01> o/
06:48:25  <andythenorth> LordAro has been busy again :)
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07:02:59  <TrueBrain> with a very tedious task
07:04:10  <andythenorth> it's good to see nml get some care
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07:04:33  <andythenorth> it's a good tool
07:05:43  <Samu> still have the canal pathfinder bugged :(
07:07:02  <Samu> can i build a bridge over another bridge if the another bridge is 2 tiles only?
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07:08:50  <Samu> nop, i can't
07:08:51  <Samu> t.t
07:12:26  <Samu> stupid bridge rules, only complicates the pathfinder :(
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07:15:30  <andythenorth> there are a bunch of nml commit messages that don't fit rules, should I fix them in rebase?
07:15:39  <andythenorth> e.g https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/commit/6b1e489cc07028b31b4073823445823a51d307be
07:15:54  <andythenorth> and a few others
07:17:01  <andythenorth> quite a lot actually, it looks messy :)
07:17:54  <Wolf01> Hmmm, should I choose games from the humble choices or just play minecraft rtx?
07:19:43  <Samu> dont waste money on games
07:20:12  <Wolf01> I already paid a year, so...
07:20:13  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: never rewrite public history :)
07:20:15  <TrueBrain> it will break ALL forks
07:20:37  <andythenorth> probably not desirable
07:20:51  <TrueBrain> in a project this size, survivable, but meh
07:21:07  <nielsm> IMO it's fine if the initial (exploratory, I guess you can say) stages of a project are messy and not up to a standard
07:21:11  <andythenorth> does that actually apply if just re-wording the message?
07:21:20  * andythenorth assumed the hash wouldn't change
07:21:29  <nielsm> yes changing the commit message also affects the commit hash
07:21:36  <andythenorth> I don't want to do it, it's just guilt, some of the commits are mine
07:21:47  <nielsm> and that affects the hash of all commits on top of that one
07:21:49  <andythenorth> I've been writing 'Docs: ' not 'Doc: ' for years and I can't stop
07:25:10  <TrueBrain> as it goes: learn from the past, live in the future
07:25:28  <andythenorth> the Future!
07:25:42  <andythenorth> everything is brighter in the future, and we are better people!
07:27:31  <TrueBrain> hmm .. all DNS entries on openttd.org had their TTL reset to 14400 .. that is odd, and not wanted
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07:28:15  <Wolf01> TB: it's remember yesterday, think about tomorrow, but you have to live today ;)
07:28:37  <TrueBrain> Wolf01: strongly depends on your country of origin ;)
07:28:53  <andythenorth> I don't think England has any of these :P
07:29:28  <Wolf01> TB: or if you listen to hammerfall :P
07:29:40  <TrueBrain> and clearly, I do not :)
07:40:23  <andythenorth> nml changelog: I can use judgement and consolidate some things?
07:40:36  <andythenorth> there are commits to add a feature, then 2 or 3 more commits to fix that feature
07:43:53  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes
07:44:35  <andythenorth> it's interesting that the convention (here and elsewhere) is to group by commit message prefix
07:44:48  <andythenorth> it doesn't really aid understanding related changes
07:44:56  <FLHerne> We already have a comprehensive list of commits, it's the commit history :P
07:45:28  <FLHerne> You mean the Add:, Fix: etc?
07:45:30  <andythenorth> ye
07:45:50  <andythenorth> depending who authored two highly related things end up separated
07:45:58  <andythenorth> I kind of wonder who the intended reader is
07:46:05  <andythenorth> it doesn't aid the casual nml user
07:46:13  <andythenorth> nor is it a reliable list of commits
07:46:14  <FLHerne> Changelog should be for users
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07:47:00  <andythenorth> I've begun doing it wrong for Iron Horse https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/docs_templates/changelog.pt
07:47:06  <andythenorth> the correct way makes no sense to me
07:47:19  <FLHerne> Sorting them by prefix means they can ignore the whole "Codechange:" section because they don't care
07:47:36  <FLHerne> (which does raise the question of why those are in the changelog at all)
07:47:44  <FLHerne> Perhaps they shouldn't be
07:47:53  <andythenorth> lots of codechanges are in as 'change'
07:47:54  <andythenorth> or 'add'
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07:48:19  <andythenorth> I'll push a draft in a minute, just feeding the kids
07:48:38  <FLHerne> I like that Horse changelog
07:49:43  <FLHerne> Are Road Hog trucks supposed to have load sprites for metal?
07:49:49  <FLHerne> (did I already ask?)
07:51:44  <andythenorth> maybe
07:51:59  <andythenorth> I'd have to check, my guess is some lengths do and some don't
07:52:10  <andythenorth> I'd like to work on Road Hog and do an NRT edition
07:52:24  <andythenorth> but nml...bananas...etc :P
08:03:43  <TrueBrain> I know that feeling :P
08:04:28  <andythenorth> as long as we're not the old lady swallowing a spider to catch the fly :P
08:04:38  * andythenorth just likes trains 
08:07:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth opened pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release https://git.io/JftvS
08:07:53  <andythenorth> 70 lines or so of changes
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08:28:06  <TrueBrain> downside of making a DNS mistake with 1.1.1.1 as your resolver ... a lot of people will now have your mistake cached for the next hour :P
08:28:08  <TrueBrain> oopsie
08:28:25  <andythenorth> oh dear
08:28:46  <TrueBrain> its fine, they are new entries
08:30:25  * andythenorth wonders about combining retro website style with a new responsive theme
08:34:42  <andythenorth> maybe not now :P
08:48:05  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Add industry production graph https://git.io/fjc3i
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08:54:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #7575: Feature: Industry production graph https://git.io/fjc3i
08:55:15  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] LordAro commented on pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release https://git.io/JftfS
09:03:39  <andythenorth> ta
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09:14:49  <mcbanhas> https://i.imgur.com/rDHv7ye.png Sometimes you get a sense of how much of a dumpster fire the OpenTTD UI can be just by looking at the tooltips. Not even my re-writing below helps much.
09:17:42  <mcbanhas> I'm seriously beginning to consider an alternate formatting to tooltips basd on some more modern standard. Maybe using left alignment instead.
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09:23:05  <nielsm> the entire orders UI is terrible and overloaded
09:23:14  <nielsm> and nobody has dared improve it yet
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09:24:05  <nielsm> the first thing to do IMO would be to scrap the idea of shared orders, and instead change orders into "routes"
09:24:26  <nielsm> so you assign a vehicle to a route, instead of making a route for a vehicle
09:24:29  <Wolf01> +100
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09:27:28  <mcbanhas> Yeah, I  noticed
09:29:04  <mcbanhas> I'm just patching text here. It would be nice to start addressing UI sometime, indeed. It's not good to keep shirking the relevance of presentation and UI.
09:30:05  <mcbanhas> My guess is that UI organization being more of subjective matter, it can spark violent discussion, hence why people avoid it.
09:30:45  <nielsm> yes that
09:31:09  <nielsm> and also people can tend to make all kinds of funky mockups in drawing programs, but it all comes down to implementation
09:31:23  <mcbanhas> On the other hand OpenTTD has been like what, 10 years in development or more? It's not good to keep sweeping this under the rug.
09:31:33  <nielsm> more like 17
09:32:10  <nielsm> and started out with lots of baggage being a straight 1:1 reimplementation of Transport Tycoon Deluxe
09:33:01  <Wolf01> Like when I have to make a site from a jpg... "do you know a little of how html works or I just have to make a clickable jpg?"
09:34:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle https://git.io/Jv4id
09:35:06  <nielsm> https://0x0.st/ijvd.png   the original from unmodified TTD, you can easily tell how it's just had features stuffed on top forever and ever
09:35:58  <mcbanhas> Yeah, but that will happen again eventually, if we just keep adding new features without improving the UI.
09:36:31  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor commented on pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle https://git.io/JftJs
09:37:13  <andythenorth> nobody dares touch orders
09:37:20  <andythenorth> oh you said that already :)
09:37:21  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kiwitreekor updated pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle https://git.io/Jv4id
09:37:53  <Wolf01> We should remove the orders totally and let the game figure them out by itself :>
09:38:07  <nielsm> last year I attempted to change the station window around, because it's also getting badly overloaded: https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7540#issuecomment-511540420
09:38:13  <andythenorth> you know which XKCD we need
09:38:13  <andythenorth> https://xkcd.com/1172/
09:38:18  <nielsm> had to abort in the end, couldn't make my idea work
09:38:33  <andythenorth> I tried to redesign newgrf configuration window
09:38:39  <andythenorth> and 'new game' window
09:38:41  <andythenorth> both failed
09:39:06  <mcbanhas> You post that comic all the time. I bet you have it bookmarked at this point.
09:39:18  <andythenorth> it's easily found
09:40:35  <andythenorth> (in case meaning is lost in irc format), I think OpenTTD is in a good place, and we can be cheerful about development in last 2 years
09:41:08  <andythenorth> but the UX is a shitshow in places, and unfortunately orders/timetables are the worst place to start trying to fix that
09:41:11  <andythenorth> :D
09:41:26  <andythenorth> imagine walls of rainbows attached to this comment
09:41:52  <mcbanhas> Well, sometimes it can be the other way around in the sense that we can throw it all out of the window.
09:42:52  <andythenorth> we'd probably have to leave the legacy UI in place
09:43:14  <andythenorth> pathfinders all over again :)
09:43:25  <nielsm> OpenTTD 2.0
09:44:18  <mcbanhas> I really don't like maintaining legacy features and groaners. I'd rather move forward and let natural selection do to the rest.
09:44:28  <andythenorth> we have no choice :)
09:44:38  <andythenorth> total 100% commitment to backwards compatibility
09:45:05  <nielsm> there's still people playing old and very old versions of ottd, and that's perfectly fine
09:45:18  <nielsm> if those versions are the game they want to play then by all means play that version
09:45:19  <andythenorth> generally this approach to software makes for a small cohort of happy users, but a terrible user experience
09:45:38  <andythenorth> I suspect there's a scale between ease-of-use and legacy suport
09:45:43  <andythenorth> we choose one end
09:46:10  <mcbanhas> Wait, but how does that relate to OpenTTD gameplay though? It's technically a different client that only fishes out optional graphics right?
09:46:31  <andythenorth> compared to TTD?
09:46:38  <mcbanhas> Yes.
09:46:45  <andythenorth> no idea :)
09:46:58  <andythenorth> I was speaking only about OpenTTD
09:47:29  <andythenorth> I have seen a myth on websites that TTD is somehow holding back OpenTTD development
09:47:49  <andythenorth> this isn't true, OpenTTD development is held back (if at all) by previous OpenTTD development
09:47:50  <mcbanhas> Because if you're talking about Legacy support in those terms it means that somehow the clients can be compatble together via multiplayer or something like that.
09:47:56  <nielsm> I will go and do other things, enjoy the daytime
09:48:00  <andythenorth> bye nielsm :D
09:48:28  <andythenorth> mcbanhas the support is for savegames
09:48:55  <andythenorth> specifically all savegames back to version 0 must work in current OpenTTD
09:49:04  <andythenorth> this means we can never change things like orders
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09:49:22  <andythenorth> change / drop features /s
09:49:46  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Of course we can change it, e.g. to routes, but we'd need to include a load converter that transfers shared orders to routes.
09:50:01  <andythenorth> and timetables, and conditional orders
09:50:39  <andythenorth> and we'd have to preserve a UI that keeps all those affordances mutable
09:51:10  <andythenorth> I'm not trying to prevent progress, I just think this is particularly hard problem :)
09:51:25  <mcbanhas> michi_cc: I smell a lot of errors coming out of such a converter.
09:51:41  <andythenorth> I looked at it before, and thought 'this is easy' we just delete all the broken crap
09:51:48  <andythenorth> but I was of course wrong :)
09:51:53  <mcbanhas> This is really where I'd rather throw TTD save game support out of the window.
09:52:06  <andythenorth> TTD is a red herring
09:52:16  <andythenorth> TTD does not have timetables, conditional orders etc
09:52:32  <andythenorth> they are mistakes in OpenTTD history, if simple order UX was the goal
09:52:43  <andythenorth> or adding more order features that actually work and are useful :)
09:53:02  <mcbanhas> So we can do routes and still keep save game compatbility?
09:53:55  <andythenorth> what do routes do? o_O
09:54:11  <mcbanhas> Not sure either, nielsm proposed that.
09:54:30  <mcbanhas> I mean, "something better that the orders we have now"
09:55:32  <mcbanhas> But what is the major impediment for throwing away all the broken crap?
09:55:56  <andythenorth> 100% savegame compatibility
09:56:01  <andythenorth> and the player base
09:56:35  <mcbanhas> What elements in save game compatbility are in direct conflict?
09:56:40  <andythenorth> also 'broken crap' is a highly subjective comment by me, I withdraw it
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09:56:52  <_dp_> it's not 100$ already
09:56:57  <_dp_> %
09:56:59  <andythenorth> just because I find timetables don't work, doesn't mean they don't work for other people
09:57:28  <mcbanhas> I think that most people do think they're crap though.
09:57:36  <mcbanhas> And that's not a big if.
09:58:06  <andythenorth> _dp_ you're right "We guarantee that every revision of OpenTTD will be able to load savegames from every older revision (excepting where the savegame is corrupt). Please report a bug if you find a save that doesn't load."
09:58:40  <andythenorth> ta
10:00:24  <mcbanhas> I gotta say this is a bit frustrating, given it puts an impediment on a lot of work that I wanted to do.
10:00:50  <andythenorth> well I might be wrong
10:00:51  <mcbanhas> And unfortunately given I'm not a programmer, I'm just stuck on having to rant about it.
10:00:54  <andythenorth> I'm not even a dev
10:01:22  <andythenorth> but OpenTTD is very easy to make progress on in some areas
10:01:39  <andythenorth> and very hostile to progress in others (the actual program, not the community)
10:02:06  <mcbanhas> I noticed. I mean people are doing radical stuff like water depth and whatnot.
10:02:08  <andythenorth> orders and timetables are almost impossible to ever change
10:02:15  <mcbanhas> But the UI is still stuck in the 90s
10:02:34  <andythenorth> there are players who have spent years building detailed recreations of specific railway systems, with realistic timetables
10:02:52  <andythenorth> and there are others using conditional orders to build self-managing networks with thousands of trains
10:03:10  <mcbanhas> Well here's the deal.
10:03:15  <mcbanhas> Fuck them.
10:03:20  <mcbanhas> Start a new one.
10:03:27  <andythenorth> I've proposed that so many times :)
10:03:41  <andythenorth> it just needs a fork
10:04:07  <andythenorth> currently we have one known viable fork - JGRPP
10:04:16  <andythenorth> and maybe a few more for goal servers that I don't know about
10:05:06  <andythenorth> all patchpacks that I've seen have tended to add a lot more complexity, not less
10:05:07  <mcbanhas> The problem is that by sticking to legacy we are inadvertently making the game less accessible to new players.
10:05:24  <mcbanhas> That's bad, because at some point people start losing interest.
10:05:26  <andythenorth> well
10:05:38  <andythenorth> the most vocal part of the player base wants a lot more complexity
10:06:07  <andythenorth> the players who are overwhelmed and quit don't go on forums or reddit asking why development of complicated things is so slow
10:06:44  <andythenorth> also one person's legacy is another person's years of work on a savegame
10:06:55  <andythenorth> we're not Apple :|
10:07:52  <mcbanhas> Curious, how did you try to fix the new game screen?
10:11:59  <_dp_> it's nice to see UI talks but imo the first thing that needs fixing is that horrible bitmap font openttd comes with
10:12:46  <andythenorth> stuff like https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/9645/game_setup_gui_3f.png
10:12:50  <andythenorth> it's not very good
10:13:14  <andythenorth> the issue I was trying to solve is that starting a new game is massive yak shaving
10:13:16  <mcbanhas> _dp_: I was going to work on that after I was done with tooltip text actually
10:13:25  <andythenorth> _dp_ what's wrong with it? :D
10:13:46  <andythenorth> apart from it has curly quote apostrophe in one direction only?
10:13:49  <_dp_> to wide and too small resolution
10:13:58  <TrueBrain> content.staging.openttd.org, port 4978, now has the new BaNaNaS ingame content server running :)
10:14:23  <mcbanhas> wide?
10:14:28  <TrueBrain> different port, so you would have to recompile the client to use it :D
10:14:53  <mcbanhas> You'd prefer a narrower font?
10:15:15  <andythenorth> _dp_ is that the OpenGFX font?
10:15:21  <_dp_> well, it's like 150% wider than any other font
10:15:59  <mcbanhas> _dp_: which font are youtalking about exactly? Can you give examples on you'd prefer?
10:16:15  <mcbanhas> I'm saying this because I'm genuinely going to work on fonts after I'm done with tooltips
10:17:25  <mcbanhas> andythenorth: I see the problem there, you tried to put too many potatoes in one bag
10:17:50  <andythenorth> it lacks any flow
10:17:58  <mcbanhas> Personally, I do not mind NewGRF settings being separate.
10:18:28  <andythenorth> I would throw out all newgrf if I could
10:18:49  <mcbanhas> The good thing about the current new game menu is that you just have to throw in a few clicks and presto.
10:19:09  <mcbanhas> This just looks overly engineered.
10:19:51  <andythenorth> it is
10:20:08  <andythenorth> but the number of savegames I've abandoned because of forgetting to change a setting is very high
10:20:34  <andythenorth> I think it's non solvable
10:20:44  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] sentry-io[bot] opened issue #6: TypeError: '<' not supported between instances of 'tuple' and 'list' https://git.io/JftJM
10:20:45  <mcbanhas> Not even by printing warnings?
10:21:17  <milek7> current newgrf settings being separate is just weird
10:21:23  <milek7> it is savegame setting, not global one
10:21:58  <mcbanhas> I did some work for OpenXCom, and what they did there in regards to mods, was simply to print a warning when you load a savegame, if you're lacking anything or have different settings than the currently loaded ones.
10:22:48  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain opened pull request #7: Fix #6: fix version-check, and with that content-listing https://git.io/JftJS
10:22:53  <TrueBrain> easiest fix yet ^^ :D
10:23:08  <andythenorth> mcbanhas but how do you validate options?
10:23:15  * andythenorth is confused
10:23:35  <andythenorth> starting a game with missing GS for example
10:23:42  <andythenorth> or with 10 AI players configured
10:26:14  <_dp_> fonts: https://i.imgur.com/d2owbur.png
10:26:36  <andythenorth> that a is so ugly
10:26:44  <andythenorth> in the pixel font
10:27:16  <Samu> 310 ticks, 1 more tick than yesterday
10:27:25  <Samu> honestly, I expected worse
10:27:30  <Samu> this is not bad
10:28:55  <milek7> TrueBrain: there's nothing there to download?
10:29:12  <TrueBrain> see the last issue and PR
10:31:59  <mcbanhas> _dp_: what do you exactly mean with this?
10:32:23  <mcbanhas> You prefer the TrueType dejavu over a pixel font?
10:32:41  <_dp_> mcbanhas, ofc
10:32:48  <_dp_> pixel is pretty much unusable for me
10:32:57  <_dp_> either hard to read or too big
10:34:37  <Samu> oh, hi _dp_ :)
10:34:47  * _dp_ hides
10:34:48  <mcbanhas> We talked about this before, the possibility of including TrueType fonts in the package along with the pixel originals.
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10:35:22  <mcbanhas> The problem with TT fonts is that they do not really match the aesthetic of the windows and menus unless they are somehow stylized
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10:35:54  <mcbanhas> So we would likely need a custom TT font for that, which *might* be possible.
10:36:42  <_dp_> imo that's a non-issue compared to having it almost unplayable
10:36:45  <mcbanhas> I'm going to work on the pixel fonts first, because I actually kind of like them, but I'm gonna try to figure out a TT solution as well.
10:37:14  <Samu> https://pastebin.com/raw/bfz4C3Cc any way to improve this ?
10:37:24  <milek7> pixel fonts are fine, but not on hi-dpi displays
10:37:41  <_dp_> also idk, tt fonts look perfectly fine with aesthetic imo
10:38:21  <mcbanhas> milek7: That always seems to be the problem right? TT fonts on the other hand, make the UI scale in weird ways.
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10:39:52  <Samu> it's using a bitset or bitmask, whatever it's called
10:41:04  <mcbanhas> You can also make a pixel-styled TrueType font. I'm not sure how well would that work though. It would have to be tested.
10:41:38  <mcbanhas> If it were to work well, we could actually drop bitmap font support altogether and just have pixel-styled TTs
10:42:18  <Samu> 1 = axis x, 2 = axis y, 4 = aqueduct ramp (the platform in the air), 8 = aqueduct head (the thing at the start or end of the aqueduct); 4 | 8 = it's not an aqueduct, it's a lock, which occupies both
10:44:09  <Samu> then i check for a conflict in a single tile with another function
10:44:11  <Samu> 	/* Check if both directions can go together on a single tile. */
10:44:11  <Samu> 	return !(existing_direction & new_direction);
10:44:53  <mcbanhas> andythenorth: OXC is a bit more easy, I guess, since it does not have such a thing as GS or AI modules. But if you have a savegame that is produced when mods are loaded, it will print a warning saying there are mods missing if you try to reload the save without them on.
10:45:12  <mcbanhas> Come to think of it, but OpenTTD already does that on the multiplayer lobby.
10:45:37  <mcbanhas> My question is, couldn't something similar be applicable to GS and other settings?
10:45:44  <andythenorth> I don't see how it could ever work
10:45:53  <andythenorth> I think we talk at cross purposes
10:45:54  <_dp_> just use some regular tt font, ui already has hi-dpi icons, tt fonts look perfectly fine along with those
10:46:10  <andythenorth> OpenTTD has no way to know that I didn't *want* 10 AIs in new game
10:46:14  <andythenorth> for example
10:46:19  <mcbanhas> _dp_: I personally think they look very bad.
10:46:24  <andythenorth> but then I have to abandon the game because the AIs have wrecked the map
10:46:47  <mcbanhas> The only game is low rest pixel art, you put a hi-res font on the backdrop and it doesn't match.
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10:46:56  <milek7> mcbanhas: how it's related to ottd? it enables/downloads missing content automatically
10:48:02  <mcbanhas> aaaah you mean in a new game.
10:48:17  <mcbanhas> I thought you meant in a savegame
10:50:04  <mcbanhas> andythenorth: if you want to UI design your way around that there's an easier solution than what you did in your early mockup: step-by-step new game menus, similar to games like Civ or Homm
10:50:43  <mcbanhas> So like, first you select your map settings, press next, then select your opponents, press next, and so on and so forth.
10:51:32  <milek7> certainly worse than tabbed approach
10:51:48  <Samu> _dp_ is busy :)
10:51:54  <mcbanhas> I don't think so, personally.
10:52:31  <mcbanhas> Functionally you can still forget things on the tabbed menu..
10:52:57  <_dp_> well, anyway, openttd looks terrible by default on modern resolutions imo
10:53:11  <milek7> ..that's not game problem, though
10:53:12  <_dp_> you literally have to go and edit cfg to make it playable
10:53:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] frosch123 approved pull request #7: Fix #6: fix version-check, and with that content-listing https://git.io/JftUO
10:54:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain merged pull request #7: Fix #6: fix version-check, and with that content-listing https://git.io/JftJS
10:54:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/bananas-server] TrueBrain closed issue #6: TypeError: '<' not supported between instances of 'tuple' and 'list' https://git.io/JftJM
10:54:56  <TrueBrain> ty frosch123  :)
10:55:13  <frosch123> https://github.com/OpenTTD/website/pull/157 <- TrueBrain: do you know what that does?
10:55:25  <TrueBrain> I do not; I would have to check it out
10:55:28  <TrueBrain> haven't had the time
10:55:41  <frosch123> ok, i was hoping you would just know it :)
10:55:50  <frosch123> no worries, more important stuff at hand
10:55:54  <TrueBrain> :)
10:56:31  <TrueBrain> like how to call a lambda based on an CloudWatch event ..
10:58:43  <TrueBrain> milek7: try it now
10:59:05  <TrueBrain> at least listing works .. downloading .. not so much :D
10:59:05  <frosch123> andythenorth: who do you consider the target audience for the nml changelog?
10:59:20  <TrueBrain> Access Denied, awwwhh
11:00:36  <frosch123> andythenorth: ah, nevermind, the changelog for the previous versions is as weird :)
11:01:35  <frosch123> maybe that changelog should be deleted
11:01:51  <TrueBrain> so two bugs: 1, the http redirect doesn't work, 2, downloads via the server don't work :P Fixing 2, 1 is more a puzzle ..
11:02:00  <frosch123> or maybe i am the only one who things a changelog is very different from a vcs history
11:02:37  <TrueBrain> okay, downloading works too now at least :D
11:04:01  <TrueBrain> owh, ofc http download doesn't work .. I am fetching that from the production server .. that is not going to work :D
11:05:55  <TrueBrain> but okay, full-chain-testing should now be possible. But I need to finish some automation first :)
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11:12:06  <TrueBrain> milek7: it works for you too now?
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11:12:53  <milek7> not on http
11:13:04  <TrueBrain> that requires some more changes in the client
11:13:14  <TrueBrain> but it should fallback to the TCP connection to download
11:13:22  <milek7> it does
11:13:24  <TrueBrain> so from a user-perspective, it should work
11:13:24  <TrueBrain> good
11:13:33  <milek7> what changes?
11:13:34  <TrueBrain> for the http, you have to change "binaries.openttd.org" to "binaries.staging.openttd.org"
11:13:49  <milek7> ofc i did that
11:13:56  <milek7> dbg: [net] [tcp/http] unhandled status reply 400 Bad Request
11:14:05  <TrueBrain> shrug
11:15:14  <andythenorth> frosch123 very valid question
11:15:17  <Wolf01> There are at least INT_MAX ways to deal with redirects and I didn't find one which is nice, works, doesn't need to change 45 things.
11:15:37  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release https://git.io/JftvS
11:15:48  <andythenorth> surely changelog is for end user?  History is for VCS
11:16:21  <frosch123> that's what i thought. but then 3/4 of that changelog should be deleted
11:16:33  <andythenorth> mcbanhas wizards perform terribly for anyone but the newest users
11:16:36  <andythenorth> they just get in the way
11:16:49  <andythenorth> frosch123 I pushed a consolidated version, glad you agree :)
11:16:55  <andythenorth> still some tidying to do
11:17:23  <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/pull/104/files
11:18:32  <andythenorth> I wonder if previously we were quite concerned about maintainer audience?
11:18:55  * andythenorth is always scared to break stuff in OpenTTD, so many tentacles
11:20:39  <frosch123> andythenorth: maintainers of distributions are also a valid audience
11:21:01  <andythenorth> so I left in ~all the codechange stuff
11:21:04  <frosch123> but neither of the two audiences is interested in codechanges that neither affect the bundle nor the functionality
11:21:21  <frosch123> .gitignore is not even part of the bundle
11:21:34  <andythenorth> ok removed
11:21:44  <andythenorth> notify irc - local concern?
11:21:54  <frosch123> yep
11:21:58  <andythenorth> release workflow - remove, or single line?
11:22:15  <LordAro> remove
11:22:33  <LordAro> anything that's purely build system related is not relevant
11:23:00  <andythenorth> +1
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11:24:42  <andythenorth> "enable VT100 sequences on windows" ??
11:26:53  <LordAro> that's just coloured text output, right?
11:27:03  <andythenorth> think so
11:27:20  <LordAro> so it should say that :p
11:27:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release https://git.io/JftvS
11:27:50  <andythenorth> there's a few others like that
11:28:02  <andythenorth> the commit message is masking the actual benefit
11:28:15  <andythenorth> I've trimmed some
11:28:24  <LordAro> do you now understand the sort of task putting the OTTD changelog together is? :p
11:28:27  <andythenorth> yes
11:28:32  <andythenorth> I write changelogs in other places :P
11:28:39  <andythenorth> but usually I understand the audience
11:28:59  <andythenorth> THANKS FOR DOING THE OTTD CHANGELOG LordAro :D
11:29:12  <LordAro> :p
11:29:33  * andythenorth adopts the weird capitalisation of first word after :
11:29:35  <andythenorth> that's so odd
11:29:39  <andythenorth> it's not a new sentence
11:29:59  <andythenorth> but rest of changelog does it so eh
11:30:06  <peter1138> Hello
11:30:11  <peter1138> Is it lunch time?
11:30:33  <LordAro> always
11:30:44  <peter1138> Excellent!
11:31:46  <andythenorth> it really is
11:33:20  <milek7> https://www.joelonsoftware.com/wp-content/uploads/2000/04/Stupidest_Dialog_Ever.gif
11:36:26  <andythenorth> "To add insult to injury, this isn’t even a dialog… it’s a wizard"
11:37:09  <andythenorth> article is here https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/12/choices/
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11:45:47  <frosch123> [13:29] *andythenorth adopts the weird capitalisation of first word after : <-  that just means that the previous changelogs were written by germans :)
11:47:29  <andythenorth> I'll go with it :)
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11:59:40  <TrueBrain> milek7: if you receive a 400, it most likely means that your request did end up on the production system; nevertheless, on staging you are being redirect to an https, which won't work for the client .. so I have some things to fix anyway
12:00:55  <milek7> static const char * const NETWORK_CONTENT_MIRROR_HOST           = "binaries.staging.openttd.org";
12:07:33  <mcbanhas> _dp_: can you help me test something?
12:07:56  <_dp_> yes?
12:08:32  <mcbanhas> https://fontlibrary.org/en/font/chicagoflf could you try using this font in your setup and tell me what you think?
12:08:41  <mcbanhas> If you could send me screenshots would be great too
12:09:05  <mcbanhas> I have a small screen so difficult for me to test stuff in higher res
12:09:07  <milek7> TrueBrain: <head><title>400 The plain HTTP request was sent to HTTPS port</title></head>
12:09:14  <_dp_> ok, tho will take a bit to remember how to setup fonts xD
12:09:34  <TrueBrain> milek7: how is that a 400? Lol
12:09:58  <TrueBrain> owh, HTTP/1.0 I guess
12:10:11  <TrueBrain> does OpenTTD implement HTTP/1.0? Wouldn't surprise me
12:10:42  <milek7> https://pastebin.com/raw/EbQgpsjg
12:10:58  <TrueBrain> yeah, HTTP/1.0
12:10:59  <mcbanhas> Sure, take your time, and thanks in advance :)
12:11:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] andythenorth updated pull request #104: Doc: draft changelog for 0.5.0 release https://git.io/JftvS
12:11:26  <andythenorth> that's ready for approve or amend ^
12:11:35  <andythenorth> I'm gone as far as I can with it :)
12:11:57  <andythenorth> I'm assuming this blocks release? https://github.com/OpenTTD/nml/pull/102
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12:15:58  <LordAro> andythenorth: it specifically doesn't block release, not really
12:16:06  <LordAro> it just makes non-releases slightly harder to work with
12:16:17  <LordAro> (though not at all noticably)
12:16:33  <TrueBrain> okay ... the NLB itself is now fully operational; if an EC2 is being scaled up/down, it reconfigures the DNS, and if eht ECS is being scaled up/down, it reconfigures nginx. W00p :D IPv4 + IPv6 NLB, without manual actions (like it was on DigitalOcean :P)
12:16:37  <TrueBrain> now to fix the bugs we have found :D
12:17:12  <Samu> https://www.rtp.pt/play/p287/e386410/argonauta what music is playing starting at 7:45?