Log for #openttd on 14th May 2020:
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00:00:43  <supermop_Home> if the spanning members are all so thin there is no need for such thick columns unless its some 80s PoMo thing
00:00:57  <mcbanhas> I don't like the opengfx maglev station either tbh
00:01:54  <supermop_Home> the solution is to not use it, but i feel like its trying to hint at a complex space frame or tensile roof, so may as well do it right
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00:02:47  <mcbanhas> why dont you design a new one?
00:03:11  <mcbanhas> or use any newgrf with alternative designs
00:03:21  <supermop_Home> the monorail one looks like a natural progression in style from the rail one
00:04:25  <supermop_Home> well its maybe an issue of principle.. advocating to replace the one in opengfx seems crazy
00:04:33  <mcbanhas> why so
00:04:45  <mcbanhas> if you think the design could be improved
00:05:05  <mcbanhas> It's graphics, after all, it's a matter of aesthetics
00:05:15  <supermop_Home> because adding a new one via new grf is an option, and presumably someone drew the current one and might be offended
00:05:46  <mcbanhas> That's true, but that's a bad argument to keep outdated or poorly designed graphics
00:05:48  <supermop_Home> also many players have a new grf mindset of always add, more options,
00:06:05  <supermop_Home> and would want both the 'new' and the old
00:06:15  <mcbanhas> There's nothing wrong with proposing a change
00:06:32  <supermop_Home> so an incremental tweak of the current sprite would seem more sucessfull
00:06:33  <mcbanhas> There will always be someone that doesn't like it, it's inevitable
00:06:48  <mcbanhas> That sounds like a good idea :)
00:07:10  <supermop_Home> planetmaker do you still care for opengfx?
00:07:11  <mcbanhas> As they say in my country, you can't please both Greeks and Trojans
00:08:12  <mcbanhas> tbh I also wish there was a difference between railway and electrified railway stations
00:08:31  <mcbanhas> Merely because I think OpenGFX has a lack of old-timey stations :)
00:09:17  <mcbanhas> The earliest station already a looks a bit too modern for the 1930s
00:10:08  <supermop_Home> ah
00:10:21  <supermop_Home> it looks positively Victorian to me
00:10:50  <supermop_Home> the monorail one could really fit from 1960 to 2060 in my opinion though
00:11:52  <supermop_Home> and architecturally could technically have shown up in the 30s at some worlds fair pavillion
00:12:29  <mcbanhas> Heh, maybe I'm simply not so acquainted with British railways architecture
00:14:29  <supermop_Home> but the maglev one is not just an odd architectural style, it is also drawn oddly
00:14:39  <supermop_Home> which is my main issue with it
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00:15:35  <mcbanhas> Well just write a proposal. Draw some inspiration from the few real maglev stations out there.
00:15:52  <mcbanhas> At best it will be considered and put to a vote.
00:15:55  <supermop_Home> well they often do have weird spaceframe sheds
00:15:57  <mcbanhas> At worst, we'll get a newGRF
00:16:34  <mcbanhas> tbh I dont even know what one looks like
00:17:29  <supermop_Home> it might make more sense to draw a new more modest monorail station and bump the monorail one to maglev
00:17:31  <supermop_Home>
00:17:52  <supermop_Home> actually the shanghai one is pretty basic technically
00:17:58  <supermop_Home> just an arched shed
00:18:45  <mcbanhas> I think switching designs would be confusing
00:19:03  <mcbanhas> what about the chuo shinkansen stations?
00:19:36  <supermop_Home> and the JR maglev station looks like a bus shelter:
00:19:37  <supermop_Home>
00:21:02  <mcbanhas> It's still a test track after all
00:21:14  <supermop_Home> presumably once the build the rest of the route the major stations will get something nicer
00:21:21  <mcbanhas> Looks like you gotta have to look at some concepts
00:21:54  <supermop_Home> but most regular shinkansen platforms has pretty simple shed roofs
00:22:51  <supermop_Home> i real life passengers look at the headhouse from the street, not the roof of the platform from the air
00:23:06  <glx> hmm now I think the screenshot I linked used rail conversion tool
00:23:17  <supermop_Home> so its usually not the place you spend your architectural budget
00:24:28  <supermop_Home> this tensile awning is nice, even though clearly it is the entrance to a building not a platform:
00:24:29  <supermop_Home>
00:25:21  <mcbanhas> looks very nice
00:25:29  <supermop_Home> very renzo
00:27:05  <supermop_Home> from above it would just be a white oval though
00:27:51  <supermop_Home> and as Eddi|zuHause would point out, the more dramatic you make a building in game, the more ridiculous and tiring it gets to see it all over the map
00:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i did say such things occasionally
00:30:37  <supermop_Home> a subtle Renzo or calatrava looking thing might work though
00:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not a problem with the extravagant buildings themselves, but with the limited amount of them available in the game
00:30:48  <mcbanhas> making it leaf shape wouldn't look bad tho
00:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> if you build 100 stations in the game, you need 90 basic ones and 10 extravagant ones. if you only have 1 basic type and 5 extravagant types, then you run out of options
00:32:04  <supermop_Home> yeah
00:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause> extravagant ones lose their charm if repeated
00:33:03  <supermop_Home> honestly if the drag and drop default station just didn't have the big roof, and you have to intentionally build it, that might help a lot
00:33:37  <supermop_Home> 90 identical stations of plain platforms is pretty acceptable
00:34:03  <supermop_Home> every station having a big Victorian shed is kind of odd
00:34:16  <glx> ah no, quick checked in game, and indeed all stations have the same roof with dos and windows original
00:34:45  <glx> but I like the monorail version of opengfx
00:35:05  <supermop_Home> glx the tto /d shed roof could conceivably look both old and modern
00:35:05  <glx> and yes maglev is weird
00:35:40  <glx> anyway I can't use opengfx personally, I'm lost with the icons :)
00:36:13  <supermop_Home> i guess any near future large shed roof would probably just be a simple expanse of PV panels
00:36:57  <mcbanhas> I would try something leaf shaped for maglev. or tubular shaped, like the bridges
00:37:21  <mcbanhas> Everyday I cross the Sloterdijk station on my way to work and I love it
00:37:44  <glx> for landscape and buildings opengfx is nice, but the gui side I can't
00:37:53  <mcbanhas>
00:37:54  <supermop_Home> everyday i walk from my bedroom to the other room for work
00:37:58  <supermop_Home> and i see no stations
00:38:17  <mcbanhas>
00:39:01  <supermop_Home> mcbanhas that's the kind of building that could have been built from 1970 to 2070
00:39:07  <supermop_Home> so it works well
00:39:18  <mcbanhas>
00:39:37  <mcbanhas> It looks a bit like the tubular bridge we have right now
00:39:43  <mcbanhas> you could essentially expand that concept
00:39:48  <mcbanhas> just an idea
00:40:51  <supermop_Home> when we were still allowed to go the office, i walk by this station every day:
00:40:52  <supermop_Home>
00:40:58  <supermop_Home> not much to look at
00:41:16  <mcbanhas> lol
00:41:22  <glx> anyway once the station is built you can "repaint" it track by track to remove the roof :)
00:41:50  <glx> or even tile by tile
00:42:16  <mcbanhas> this is a metro station in my country
00:42:30  <supermop_Home> glx i used to do that to chop up the ttd roofs to make weird butterfly shapes etc
00:42:31  <mcbanhas>
00:44:12  <mcbanhas> regardles, just try making an alternate station. It can always make a nice newgrf
00:48:02  <supermop_Home> slippery slope, start futzing with the pixels, then i'll be firing up rhino to model compound surfaces, then grasshopper
00:48:35  <supermop_Home> which i was doing til 5 last night freezing my computer many times
00:48:50  <mcbanhas> what is rhino?
00:49:25  <supermop_Home>
00:49:49  <supermop_Home> nurbs surface modeller
00:49:53  <mcbanhas> I see
00:50:07  <supermop_Home> what i spend most of my work time in when im lucky
00:50:20  <supermop_Home> (photoshop and InDesign when unlucky)
00:51:26  <mcbanhas> ok I'm out
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01:53:46  <Speeder> what is a good proportion of city/town?
01:53:54  <Speeder> or that is not really relevant usually?
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02:57:57  <Speeder> what encoding openttd uses?
02:58:03  <Speeder> my script made my towns all have crazy names
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03:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause> almost always UTF8
03:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> however, if you use NFO to make a town name generator, UTF8 strings need a special character as prefix
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04:24:39  <Speeder> after I saved the script in windows encoding it worked
04:24:51  <Speeder> now I need to figure out how to scroll back on the script log more than the default
04:24:53  <Speeder> :/
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08:56:53  <Samu> hi
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10:41:23  <mcbanhas> Hello
10:42:59  <andythenorth> hi
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10:50:38  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: "Then all of these have to be changed for consistency, ..."
10:51:23  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I'm still unsure whether I will keep the middle of sentence ones lowercase, as they don't refer to building names per se
10:51:32  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Which do you propose to change? It's not clear if that means de-capitalizing the depot strings or re-capitalizing something else
10:51:37  <mcbanhas> They refer to A train depot
10:51:50  <mcbanhas> Not THE Wartington Train Depot
10:51:56  <FLHerne> Yes
10:52:39  <FLHerne> Well, as per my comment, I really dislike capitalizing Arbitrary Nouns in sentences anyway ;-)
10:52:52  <FLHerne> I know some games do it, but it annoys me :p
10:53:40  <FLHerne> (well noun phrase there)
10:54:02  <mcbanhas> I think that for resource names at least, it is important
10:54:47  <mcbanhas> But I think this is a good standard for building names: if a generic reference, lowercase, if a given name of a building, capitalized
10:54:54  <FLHerne> I don't see why
10:55:15  <FLHerne> With the base cargos, you can see what it's carrying at a glance anyway
10:55:55  <mcbanhas> It's more of a matter of drawing your attention to elements in sentences.
10:56:55  <mcbanhas> Using lowercase for everything can make certain things go a little less noticed. This is why unit names and resource names tend to be capitalized in RTS and such
10:57:00  <FLHerne> Ok, but I don't think that's important enough for usability to overcome it looking horrible
10:57:12  <FLHerne> OpenTTD isn't really an RTS, the player's not in a hurry :P
10:57:15  <mcbanhas> It doesn't look horrible for me.
10:58:22  <FLHerne> Then we disagree
10:58:51  <FLHerne> andythenorth: ^ text formatting bikeshed argument?
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10:59:19  <andythenorth> just don't make it worse
10:59:23  * andythenorth evaluating CDNs
10:59:28  <andythenorth> not going to join you
10:59:34  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: My other objection is that the "...of some cargo" strings are provided by grfs
10:59:59  <FLHerne> So if you're using ECS, FIRS, etc. you'll end up with half being capitalized and half not
11:00:04  <FLHerne> Which is even worse
11:00:35  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh well, we shall do without your expertise in silly questions :-(
11:04:02  <mcbanhas> Again, I think changing style rules doesn't fall into the same scope as breaking userland. Some mods already break textual consistency by having different capitalization of their own. There was a good example posted the other day here.
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11:04:45  <mcbanhas> You can see on the vehicles window, the mod text uses sentence capitalization whereas the original text uses title capitalization
11:05:12  <_dp_> hm... I wonder if it's possible to make newgfr with sky instead of water and islands floating in it xD
11:05:18  <mcbanhas> This will always happen. It's inevitable, but avoidable, hence why there is a style guide now so mods can follow it too
11:06:21  <FLHerne> _dp_: It would all look a bit dull, because of water tiles being identical?
11:06:48  <_dp_> FLHerne, there can always be some cloud objects or smth
11:06:48  <FLHerne> You'd need to place a ton of objects or something to make fake clouds in the 'sky'
11:06:55  <FLHerne> ^^
11:07:06  <_dp_> they can even be industries :p
11:07:10  <mcbanhas> You could place large clouds
11:07:36  <mcbanhas> And make them dynamic objects that move
11:07:42  <mcbanhas> Would be an interesting setting
11:07:48  <mcbanhas> Sorta like Zeal in Chrono Trigger
11:07:48  <FLHerne> Yeah, I keep forgetting NewObjects can be bigger than a couple of tiles, no-one does that
11:07:58  <FLHerne> They can't move, though :P
11:08:28  <FLHerne> Well, they could graphically drift around within their own area, but that would look a bit odd
11:11:34  <mcbanhas> Also, once we're done with style changes, it would actually be neat if a blog post could be made about it, so modders take notice of it and start writing their texts accordingly
11:12:38  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, right now I'm more concerned on how we should spell Game Script
11:12:45  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Like that
11:13:09  <mcbanhas> Some people were saying "GameScript" or Game-Script"
11:13:18  <FLHerne> "Game script" doesn't make sense, and "game script" doesn't stand out enough
11:13:25  <mcbanhas> I don't entirely oppose the former given it woul go along well with NewGRF
11:13:27  <andythenorth> NoGO
11:13:46  <andythenorth>
11:13:48  <andythenorth> it's GameScript
11:13:54  <andythenorth> for better or worse
11:14:07  <FLHerne> "GameScript" as TrueBrain pointed out isn't used anywhere atm, and we don't really need *more* variations
11:14:26  <mcbanhas> >"Game script" doesn't make sense, and "game script" doesn't stand out enough <--- This is why I want to capitalize resource names ^^
11:14:27  <FLHerne> And "Game-Script" was clearly invented by a German speaker p
11:14:44  <Samu> GS
11:15:05  <mcbanhas> Guys, I will leave this one entirely up to you
11:15:12  <mcbanhas> Pick one
11:15:34  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: It's not obvious that "game script" refers to a particular type of thing, rather than just 'some sort of scripting for games'
11:15:50  <FLHerne> Whereas coal really is just coal
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11:16:29  <FLHerne> There's no special OpenTTD concept of "Coal" that players should consider differently from coal in general
11:16:54  <FLHerne> Which is why I dislike it, actually
11:17:18  <FLHerne> OpenTTD (especially the way I tend to play it) tends to be pretty realistic
11:18:22  <FLHerne> My trains aren't carrying the special OTTD resource "Coal", they're just coal trains :P
11:18:41  <_dp_> lol, I was just thinking that openttd can really use some fantasy settings xD
11:18:58  <_dp_> instead of being stuck in this weird realistic-but-not-really spot xD
11:18:59  <FLHerne> (you should probably ask someone else at some point)
11:19:15  <_dp_> except for bloody toyland xD
11:19:38  <FLHerne> I love the fact that no-one remembers that exists
11:19:55  <FLHerne> You could play "The Game", except you lose when you remember there's a Toyland mode
11:20:11  <Samu> GS is AI
11:20:18  <Samu> 's brother
11:20:31  <andythenorth> oof so I just lost
11:20:42  <andythenorth> that's probably months or years you've ruined there FLHerne
11:20:53  <andythenorth> I'd even forgotten about the damn Game
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11:23:12  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, it's important to make resource names stand out I think
11:23:50  <mcbanhas> Improves readability of relevant elements
11:24:11  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: You're never going to persuade me, so ask some more people ;-)
11:24:52  <mcbanhas> Can we decide upon a spelling for game script then?
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11:25:04  <Borg> scary..... scaaary..
11:25:18  <Borg> newgrf_storage.h: ClearChanges()
11:25:24  <Borg> I really.. dont get it...
11:26:44  * _dp_ thinks resources need icons
11:26:57  <mcbanhas> _dp_, i think so to
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12:02:06  <Samu> I tried to investigate this but it's too much for my head
12:21:25  <_dp_> first one may actually be the desync I saw yesterday
12:22:21  <mcbanhas> LordAro, do you prefer Game Script or GameScript?
12:32:32  <andythenorth> Game Script is better
12:32:40  <andythenorth> despite what I said earlier about official docs
12:33:26  <andythenorth> oof I'd rather not have to fix this though
12:33:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given.
12:33:54  <mcbanhas> I can fix that wiki doc
12:33:56  <LordAro> mcbanhas: yeah, Game Script is better
12:34:37  <andythenorth> I think that wiki page has a full bingo board
12:34:52  <andythenorth> every possible permutation of Gamescript Game Script gamescript etc
12:35:10  <LordAro> :D
12:35:41  <mcbanhas> LordAro, alright. I'll just do some extra changes to building name capitalization and then submit one more version, which hopefully will be the final one
12:36:00  <mcbanhas> (for the capitalization changes that is)
12:36:25  <mcbanhas> Then batch two with all the rewrites will be pushed afterwards. It's gonna be fun.
12:37:00  <FLHerne> LordAro: Do you have an opinion on capitalizing cargo names?
12:37:33  <FLHerne> I strongly dislike "137 tons of Coal", but mcbanhas is equally adamant that it's necessary
12:37:49  <andythenorth> well I won't be changing FIRS for that
12:37:52  <FLHerne> So needs a tie-breaker
12:37:54  <andythenorth> it's not worth a proper noun
12:38:12  <LordAro> yeah, it is a bit odd like that
12:38:14  <andythenorth> I go back and forth in changelogs etc on capitalising cargos and industries
12:38:30  <LordAro> i get the argument, but yeah, 'coal'
12:38:44  <mcbanhas> technically you only have to change the capitalization in game andythenorth
12:38:48  <andythenorth> in a changelog I would write 'New cargo: Coal'
12:38:52  <mcbanhas> documentation you can write whatever you want
12:39:03  <andythenorth> but I would also write: 'Icons for coal, steel, sheep' etc
12:39:14  <andythenorth> very inconsistent
12:39:35  <Samu> when in doubt, capitalize everything
12:39:36  <FLHerne> Oh, capitalization after a colon was the other thing we disagreed about and haven't already settled
12:40:36  <FLHerne> There's a change "Warning: Server administrators may..." to "Warning: server administrators may...", and that just looks wrong to me
12:40:54  <FLHerne> Although it's true that some manuals of style prefer the latter
12:40:57  <andythenorth> I thought GB English settled that one
12:41:08  <andythenorth> I was never aware of it being ok to capitalise non-nouns there
12:41:15  <andythenorth> I didn't really do English in school though
12:41:35  <FLHerne> Well, it's a noun phrase :P
12:41:36  <andythenorth> hmm
12:41:40  <andythenorth> I didn't really do school
12:41:42  <andythenorth> fixed it
12:41:46  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I'm with the most manuals of style on that one: you don't capitalize after a colon unless it's a title or a paragraph break
12:41:50  <FLHerne> "Server administrators", I mean
12:42:17  * andythenorth school attendance GCSE year: 50%
12:42:19  <andythenorth> hurrah
12:42:26  * andythenorth found school boring
12:42:34  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I looked at Chicago, it also says "introduces more than one sentence" or so
12:42:37  <FLHerne> Of course, this is one
12:42:57  <mcbanhas> Can you show me the link
12:43:13  <FLHerne>
12:43:26  <FLHerne> s/more than one/two or more/, so same meaning
12:44:20  <mcbanhas> I can't open that. You have paid subscription?
12:44:35  <mcbanhas> oh wait there's a 30 day free trial
12:45:31  <FLHerne> Yes, that
12:45:45  <FLHerne> (so we have to get this done within 30 days :D)
12:45:59  <FLHerne> Well, 29, because I subscribed yesterday to see what it said
12:49:08  <andythenorth> mumble
12:51:12  <mcbanhas> It's not introducing two or more sentences in this case though.
12:51:48  <FLHerne> "
12:51:50  <FLHerne> The mystery was explained: The impala
12:51:51  <FLHerne> on the menu was an animal, not a car. The British would treat this
12:51:53  <FLHerne> as a simple sentence with only an initial capital letter.
12:51:54  <FLHerne> "
12:52:23  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Ok, I think the written authorities are conclusively on your side here also
12:53:13  <mcbanhas> I wish I would've finished the chapter on punctuation now.
12:53:25  <FLHerne> ^that follows "When a colon precedes a full sentence or question rather than a phrase, Americans sometimes follow the colon with a capital letter."
12:53:35  <FLHerne> in andythenorth's link
12:53:39  <mcbanhas> andythenorth, thank you for the link, this is a very nice resource.
12:53:49  <andythenorth> p. 115
12:54:17  <andythenorth> I own the actual book paid for several times over, I don't feel bad sharing that PDF :)
12:54:18  <mcbanhas> Yeah, I'm aware, but this is EN-UK language we're editing here.
12:54:37  <FLHerne> My quote was from p144
12:54:51  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Yes, that's why I said "Ok, I think the written authorities are conclusively on your side"
12:55:08  <mcbanhas> Alright
12:56:46  <mcbanhas> So what do you guys want for capitalizing resources again?
12:59:08  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I think LordAro, andythenorth and I were all against it?
12:59:24  <FLHerne> I might be more vehemently against it than them though
13:00:41  <FLHerne> I expect frosch would be against it, given his previous opinions about NewGRF compatibility, but he's not here
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13:03:12  <supermop_Home_> hi
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13:46:11  <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne> I strongly dislike "137 tons of Coal", but mcbanhas is equally adamant that it's necessary <-- as a german, i have no problem with that, but it doesn't look right for the english that i learned
13:49:53  <FLHerne> There's no question it's grammatically wrong, the suggestion is that capitalizing it makes it easier for players to recognize the information
13:50:34  <FLHerne> (which it probably does, but IMO not enough to be worth it)
13:59:11  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino opened pull request #8146: Added Spanish town names
13:59:23  <mcbanhas> There's is currently an inconsistency with some lines though, have a look.
13:59:35  <mcbanhas> This line STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT     :All but {CARGO_LIST}
13:59:42  <mcbanhas> Produces this
14:00:28  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8146: Added Spanish town names
14:01:04  <mcbanhas>
14:02:00  <supermop_Home_> really you could hand truck a couple barrels into the parcels area of those power cars
14:02:01  <mcbanhas> There's no way around this unless we produce a bunch of new, uncapitalized strings for every resource.
14:02:31  <Eddi|zuHause> you can already do that, with "cases"
14:02:49  <mcbanhas> supermop_Home_, as p/ the current events in the oil industry, definitely, haha
14:04:54  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8105: Fix: OpenGFX download link did no longer work.
14:04:55  <Eddi|zuHause> not suggesting that this would be a route to pursue, but you can do "STR_WHATEVER" and ""
14:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> with a bit of extra fuzz
14:06:01  <mcbanhas> Yeah that's what I'm saying, but that would mean adding more strings, and it would mean mods would also have to add a lot more strings, as opposed to just regularizing the use of capitals for resources
14:06:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino closed pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
14:06:44  <Eddi|zuHause> this should have no effect on existing mods, or other languages
14:06:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
14:07:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro reopened pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
14:07:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
14:08:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but, i really shouldn't get involved in this discussion, as i'm not going to play the game in english
14:08:26  <Eddi|zuHause> and there's no question on how to do this in german
14:09:32  <mcbanhas> There's a third possibility
14:09:57  <mcbanhas> We make an uncapitalized string for every resource
14:10:26  <mcbanhas> And we make a generic STR_QUANTITY_ string
14:11:06  <mcbanhas> Although the plurals would have to be adjusted accordingly
14:11:59  <mcbanhas> Tbh it's much easier to just make resources capitalized and it comes with readability benefits
14:13:29  <mcbanhas> There is a fourth option, though
14:13:56  <mcbanhas> we can rewrite STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT with colons
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14:14:27  <mcbanhas> So it would be something like All except: Oil
14:14:43  <mcbanhas> No wait, that wont do
14:14:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i also thought of that, but that is a design choice, not a style choice, and would have to be made consistent across all languages
14:15:14  <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Doesn't that contradict the previous discussion?
14:15:44  <FLHerne> fragments after a colon should definitely not be capitalized
14:16:00  <FLHerne> (and the colon looks odd anyway)
14:16:10  <mcbanhas> Not necessarily. If introducing lists of items, capitalization after colons is fine. But it wont do for another reason. There's colons already being using in the UI label "refittable to:"
14:16:11  <FLHerne> Should just be lowercase there too
14:16:34  <mcbanhas> So that's out of the picture
14:16:39  <FLHerne> "All but oil" is fine
14:17:02  <supermop_Home_> FLHerne i would certainly expect list items following a colon to be capitalized
14:17:12  <mcbanhas> Then we need a bunch of new strings to make it lowercase
14:17:43  <mcbanhas> But frankly, just making resources capitalized makes more sense now
14:18:17  <mcbanhas> I was actually close to conceding to lowercase until I saw this string
14:18:22  <supermop_Home_> there is certainly a difference between the grammar taught in school that you might write a book with, and a functional style to produce a quickly readable UI
14:18:26  <mcbanhas> And maybe there are more
14:18:28  <FLHerne> I don't see why you need new strings for that?
14:18:51  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, look at how the string works
14:19:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization.
14:19:37  <mcbanhas> STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT     :All but {CARGO_LIST}
14:21:53  <planetmaker> Hm, do we accept new townname lists now all of a sudden? #8146
14:23:27  <nielsm> pretty sure that should be a newgrf
14:23:38  <planetmaker> that was my immediate thought, too
14:24:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
14:26:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
14:27:40  <LordAro> i did wonder
14:27:56  <LordAro> but since it wasn't altering an existing list...
14:29:33  <planetmaker> I don't think it sets good precedent. The existing lists are bad. Very bad for the map sizes we support. So starting with better lists (like this) will immediately spawn bug reprots and feature requests for the existing
14:30:38  <FLHerne> planetmaker: I don't really see why that's a problem, given that they're very bad :p
14:30:44  <planetmaker> IMHO the better approach would be to somewhat integrate the search for newgrf townnames even more closely... like tying in a content search for those where townnames are added (that's unfortunately in a completely different place than all other newgrfs)
14:30:55  <FLHerne> There must be *some* way to not break compatibility
14:31:04  <planetmaker> FLHerne, yes... NewGRFs ;)
14:31:22  <FLHerne> (e.g. the suggestion to use the existing list first, then any new components)
14:31:27  <mcbanhas> Then we gotta throw away all international list names.
14:31:35  <supermop_Home_> planetmaker or quietly improve some of the bad lists and strenuously deny that you ever did?
14:31:35  <planetmaker> But you must retain the lists which you ever implemented for eternity in order to keep savegame load capability
14:31:38  <FLHerne> planetmaker: But that gives a very bad default experience in most languages
14:31:48  <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I agree
14:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not opposed to adding new lists, but we should reconsider the idea to make snapshots of the current generators, and reimplement thtem in a futureproof manner
14:32:00  <planetmaker> improving means basically "add another with a version check for that language". That gets really messy quickly
14:32:16  <FLHerne> planetmaker: > (e.g. the suggestion to use the existing list first, then any new components) ?
14:32:42  <planetmaker> that's not how it works @FLHerne . There is logic in them. They're not just stupid lists
14:32:48  <FLHerne> The existing stupid names are a given, and just as bad in so-called "English" as everything else
14:32:56  <planetmaker> names are composed
14:33:02  <FLHerne> I know
14:33:17  <FLHerne> But still, there's a finite and enumerable number of composable names, which is the problem
14:33:24  <planetmaker> not really
14:33:32  <FLHerne> Most non-English languages have too few for current possible map sizes
14:33:53  <planetmaker> you can have composition rules as you like. It's not strictly countable nor is the number of elements predictable
14:34:08  <planetmaker> countable. But not finite necessarily :P
14:34:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really true
14:34:44  <FLHerne> Having a fallback "the classic generator couldn't produce another name, so use a new one" shoul fix it without breaking old saves
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14:34:57  <FLHerne> Er, how can they possibly not be finite?
14:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause> there's no loop system, it's always going to be finite
14:35:31  <nielsm> well I suppose max 4.2 billion is finite
14:35:44  <nielsm> (if enough compositions are provided)
14:35:50  <nielsm> compositions/components
14:35:54  <planetmaker> :)
14:36:00  <FLHerne> nielsm: For the hypothetical languages with 4.2 billion, there's no problem
14:36:06  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino opened pull request #8147: Release/1.10
14:36:11  <FLHerne> The problem is Finnish where there are 300 or something
14:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause> and you can always give an upper bound on the number of combinations
14:36:17  <nielsm> but yes it's possible to calculate the max number of names generatable by each generator
14:36:29  <FLHerne> Because that means large maps flat-out don't work with Finnish selected
14:36:41  <planetmaker> yes. But that means you cannot fix it in terms of logic
14:36:41  <FLHerne> (well, can't generate a suitable number of towns)
14:36:53  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Why?
14:37:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed pull request #8147: Release/1.10
14:37:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8147: Release/1.10
14:37:08  <planetmaker> because you need to keep the old for savegame reasons
14:37:45  <planetmaker> as not names are saved but indices into the generator logic
14:38:04  <FLHerne> planetmaker: Right, so only use the new generator for names beyond what the old one can generate...?
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14:38:12  <nielsm> TrueBrain: how about extenting bananas 1.5 with a calculator for townname grf's how many names it can possibly make? :D
14:38:30  <LordAro> also into the entirely wrong branch
14:38:34  <Eddi|zuHause> we need 2 things: 1) to make snapshots of the current generators, for converting old savegames, and 2) implement the system that future changes don't affect savegames
14:38:34  <planetmaker> :D I like that suggestion ^^^
14:38:48  <planetmaker> and eddi's, too
14:39:01  <nielsm> I really think we should change towns to always store the generated name as text
14:39:18  <Eddi|zuHause> 2) would be achived by converting the seeds to text on generation, not on display
14:39:22  <planetmaker> Possibly @nielsm
14:39:26  <nielsm> storing a generation seed made sense in 1994, it doesn't in 2020
14:39:32  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names
14:40:17  <planetmaker> You are totally right. Because then... Townname NewGRFs don't even need to be part of the savegame
14:40:32  <planetmaker> which would be a win
14:41:05  <planetmaker> And as for townname generators: it might be possible to rip-out the old generators and replace them by NewGRFs which OpenTTD ships with by default
14:41:06  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that would be a side effect
14:41:31  <planetmaker> Then one could on that approach start to ship with improved generators at the same time
14:41:46  <planetmaker> without technical debt (provided names are stored in savegames)
14:41:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure converting them to NewGRFs makes a lot of sense. we don't do that for the default vehicles etc.
14:42:16  <nielsm> town name generators might need to stay with the save for games where you can found towns
14:42:17  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I actually think it would be a good solution, too
14:42:33  <planetmaker> hm... founding towns. forgot that
14:42:37  <Eddi|zuHause> also, this would make it difficult to deprecate some of the old generators if we make new versions
14:44:20  <Eddi|zuHause> i think converting them to NewGRFs is an abstraction layer too far
14:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it causes all kinds of followup issues like, why do we include some NewGRFs and not others?
14:46:14  <planetmaker> would be part of base set. We do that
14:46:27  <Eddi|zuHause> no, we don't
14:53:31  &l