Log for #openttd on 28th May 2020:
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00:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: so add coal as an imported good from a port?
00:37:56  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, I was considering doing that but... Brazil use diesel instead on powerplants, so if I adjust powerplants for example coal from port would end being kinda useless.
00:38:00  <Speeder_> But I might add coal to port anyway.
00:38:04  <Speeder_> for other uses.
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03:20:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz opened pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments.
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04:52:09  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8008: Feature: Double-click to rename vehicle
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05:18:56  <Speeder_> can scripts mess with the price of vehicles?
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05:33:45  <Speeder_> can scripts trigger recession?
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07:07:42  <andythenorth> yo
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07:13:23  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth approved pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments.
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07:24:57  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kawayanslayer commented on pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments.
07:26:33  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro approved pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments.
07:26:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro merged pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments.
07:32:40  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] kawayanslayer commented on pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments.
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10:04:14  <Samu> hi
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10:40:12  <Gadg8eer> Is there a way to contact Michael Blunck? I need to ask a question about coding bridges in m4nfo.
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10:42:46  <LordAro> forum
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11:09:53  <Gadg8eer> I already sent him a PM like a month ago.
11:10:43  <Gadg8eer> Okay, actually, after double-checking...
11:10:59  <Gadg8eer> The message was sent about 2 weeks ago.
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11:12:11  <Gadg8eer> It doesn't say when he was last online, so I don't know if he's seen my message or not.
11:12:37  <LordAro> well that's all you can do
11:12:56  <LordAro> you can try sending another one, but if he's not seen the first...
11:14:23  <Gadg8eer> I have coded everything else I intend to use in my server. Without his help, I am literally a few bridges away from the perfect OpenTTD marathon game.
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11:15:32  <Gadg8eer> Is there anyone else that can help me code bridges?
11:15:45  <LordAro> if you post on the forum, someone might be able to
11:15:54  <Gadg8eer> Alright, thanks.
11:15:55  <LordAro> though i've no idea how many people actually use m4nfo
11:17:22  <andythenorth> some
11:22:57  <andythenorth> I considered switching, but I don't think I'd get on with the author tbh
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11:49:31  <Eddi|zuHause> MN was active in the german forum the last few days, so he should still be around
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11:53:22  <Eddi|zuHause> *MB
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13:29:58  <andythenorth> quiet eh
13:30:21  <supermop_Home> yep
13:31:09  <supermop_Home> i didn't find his comment in the stations post particularly helpful or insightful
13:34:09  <supermop_Home> or really apropos of anything. It did seem to kill the thread though....
13:35:42  * andythenorth has sold a lot of model trains to a dealer
13:35:50  <andythenorth> and has spent 3 hours boxing them up so far :|
13:35:51  <andythenorth> oof
13:36:11  <supermop_Home> never should have taken them out of the boxes
13:36:57  <supermop_Home> or really just build a oo mainline to the dealer and drive the train there
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15:25:47  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> Looking at the wiki now
15:26:04  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> So the option to build a statue in a town isn't just for the sake of being vain?
15:26:17  <Wrench_In_The_Plan> The wiki says that it improves a stations' rating.
15:27:55  <FLHerne> Yes
15:28:26  <FLHerne> A company HQ is mostly for vanity, though :P
15:31:10  <supermop_Home> playing tto in 94, my neighbor told me that the HQ reduced maintenance - ie trains closer to the HQ had better reliability or recovered from breakdowns faster
15:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> well, you can use company HQ to boost passenger production
15:31:41  <supermop_Home> this idea made so much sense to me that I was pretty disappointed to later learn it wasn't true
15:32:28  <supermop_Home> like Eddi|zuHause says, now i often am moving my hq to some backwater hamlet just to get the station to accept passengers
15:34:02  <supermop_Home> i think i last mentioned this at like 3 am 10 years ago when only Eddi|zuHause was humoring me, but i wished the statue was instead a 'local office' drawn in the style of the HQ, as this fits the function pretty well
15:34:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i definitely had that same thought
15:35:40  <supermop_Home> if the service at my local subway station is awful, the MTA building a statue of it's president out front would enrage me and make me less likely to use it
15:36:09  <supermop_Home> but a staffed office where i could lodge a complaint or get information would help
15:38:38  <LordAro> haha
15:47:02  <Speeder_> GS can change what cargo an industry accepts?
15:47:15  <andythenorth> nah
15:48:00  <Speeder_> can newgrf do like the game already does with oilrigs and make an industry that at certain date forcibly replace another?
15:48:26  <andythenorth> nah
15:48:35  <Speeder_> D:
15:48:41  <andythenorth> you can forcibly close industries
15:48:55  <andythenorth> and you can restrict dates industries are available
15:48:59  <Speeder_> andythenorth, can I do that with GS?
15:49:00  <andythenorth> only GS can forcibly build
15:49:05  <andythenorth> and only newgrf can control the industry
15:49:07  <Speeder_> forcibly close t hat is
15:49:16  <andythenorth> GS cannot forcibly close
15:49:18  <andythenorth> only open
15:49:21  <Speeder_> >.<
15:49:27  <andythenorth> also GS and newgrf cannot communicate
15:49:46  <Speeder_> lack of communication is not an issue, since it would be date based
15:49:56  <andythenorth> should be fine then
15:50:07  <andythenorth> newgrf closes industries from 19xx
15:50:13  <andythenorth> GS starts building them
15:50:13  <Speeder_> andythenorth, any idea how hard would be to update my FIRS 3 code to use 16-input limit?
15:50:18  <Speeder_> also any new art on FIRS 4?
15:50:21  <andythenorth> that would be FIRS 4 code
15:50:37  <andythenorth> yes, there's new art in FIRS 4
15:50:39  <Speeder_> FIRS4 you changed a lot of other things no?
15:51:42  <andythenorth> the biggest change is to work with updated newgrf spec for 16 cargos
15:52:04  <Speeder_> I am worried switching to FIRS4 entirely will also get me those bugs you mentioned
15:52:13  <andythenorth> it's an awkward time :)
15:52:20  <andythenorth> FIRS 4 is not finished, FIRS 3 is not up to date :)
15:52:23  <andythenorth> stuff and things
15:52:56  <Speeder_> my main issue now is that to do what I want with FIRS3 I need even more ports and farms :/
15:53:43  <Speeder_> andythenorth, by the way, I removed passenger generation from Hotels, it was breaking town growth GSes that check amount of passengers transported
15:54:07  <Speeder_> because hotels could generate passenger far in excess of the towns population, making the percentage of passengers impossible to attain
15:54:43  <andythenorth> this is a thing :)
15:55:36  <Speeder_> andythenorth, it was wobblign the entire game though. making everything skewed. wasn't fun.
15:56:14  <Speeder_> I wish there was a way to newgrf change what something makes based on date
15:56:21  <Speeder_> so hte hotel could increase production as date advances
15:56:31  <Speeder_> and ports would be able to change what they produce based on date too
15:57:43  <Speeder_> can you change CURRENCY with GS?
15:57:58  <Speeder_> for example Brazil used pounds early on
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15:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
16:00:13  <Speeder_> portugal had, actually, still has, is the longest running alliance in the world, an agreement with England. Brazil during 1700s was allowed to trade with both Portugal and England, and Brazil kept trading with England for a while (for example our major train stations were all built by english companies using english steel... yes they are old, and photos of our train stations look exactly like photos of london stations, quite
16:00:14  <Speeder_> funny), and BRL was introduced only in 1994
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16:01:16  <glx> currency is just a user setting
16:01:39  <glx> internally everything is in GBP anyway
16:02:37  <Speeder_>
16:02:52  <Speeder_> glx, I know, was wondering if GS is allowed to change it
16:03:06  <andythenorth> hotel production can easily change by date
16:03:32  <glx> GS don't change visual only settings
16:04:07  <LordAro> Speeder_: everything a GS can do can be found here
16:04:20  <Speeder_> andythenorth, on FIRS3 ?
16:04:26  <Speeder_> or need the newest nml?
16:05:27  <glx> hmm we could release 0.5.3 with 0.4 compatibility
16:07:00  <Speeder_> glx, that would make me happy, specially if it allows partial move into 16 cargo
16:07:14  <andythenorth> Speeder_ any FIRS can do production by date, you'd have to write code for it
16:07:29  <Speeder_> andythenorth, can you point me in the nml docs to what I need to mess with?
16:07:37  <Speeder_> callbacks?
16:07:38  <glx> produce()
16:08:18  <Speeder_> can produce query the date?
16:08:36  <Speeder_> can you change cargo types on the fly?
16:08:57  <glx> you can't change cargo type
16:09:29  <glx>
16:09:31  <nielsm> an industry has to decide which cargo types it can consume and which it can produce at latest when it gets built
16:10:45  <glx> but then it can produce or not any cargo in the defined list
16:11:09  <Speeder_> glx, so only way to do what I want is if new nml supported my old FIRS3 code
16:11:23  <Speeder_> then I would put all cargos I want over the years, and change the multipliers
16:11:28  <Speeder_> setting some to 0 when I don't want them
16:14:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably easier with the new syntax
16:15:40  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, it is FIRS4 as andy said, has bugs, I don't want to use it. but it sounds like making FIRS3 support new nml would take ludicrous amounts of work, and probably make those bugs show up anyay
16:15:42  <Speeder_> anyway*
16:16:53  <Speeder_> if I knew more about how to make the sprites work with newest nml I wouldn't mind, but right now I don't know, so for example although FIRS did had bauxite mine officially in the past, I am reusing the clay mine, because if I restored the bauxite mine graphics I wouldn't know how to code the sprite code for NML 4.5
16:17:18  <glx> nml now support both old and new syntaxes, but warns everytime old syntax is seen
16:17:39  <glx> (and it warns a lot)
16:18:18  <Speeder_> glx, what you mean... "now" ?
16:18:28  <glx> current master
16:18:36  <Speeder_> when this happened?
16:18:41  <glx> and next release
16:19:00  <Speeder_> cool
16:19:21  <Speeder_> if I am done with current stuff I am doing before next release, I will then learn how to compile nml
16:20:02  <Eddi|zuHause> that's easy...
16:21:35  <Speeder_> I am learning details of Brazil economy now, my plan is use GS to open industries at correct date
16:21:49  <Speeder_> an in correct locations
16:22:22  <Speeder_> learned some stuff I didn't knew, like the fact Brazil never had heavy coal mining, always relied on imports, and powerplants here for this reason are NOT coal-powered, they are DIESEL powered O.o
16:22:32  <Speeder_> never knew diesel commercial powerplants existed in first place
16:22:43  <Speeder_> always thought this was only for smaller business, homes and hospitals
16:25:18  <andythenorth> the FIRS 4 bugs aren't extensive, they're just not diagnosed yet
16:25:29  <andythenorth> you could probably integrate whatever fixes them later
16:25:45  <andythenorth> the bigger problem is that industry closure is missing and needs rewritten
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16:29:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't heard specifically of Diesel power plants, just more generic oil
16:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> usually for that kind of large devices you'd use the leftover stuff that you filtered the diesel out from
16:31:17  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, might be too. here in Brazil diesel is banned in cars though. you are only allowed to use diesel in commercial enterprise.
16:31:23  <Speeder_> (ie: tractors, generators, trucks, etc...)
16:32:11  <Speeder_> SUVs, off-road vehicles, etc... for personal use, are all gasoline.
16:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> well, over here, taxes are designed in a way that diesel cars only are worth it if you travel large distances per year
16:35:08  <glx> here taxes are CO2 based, so for now diesel is still less taxed
16:35:43  <Eddi|zuHause> the diesel itself is less taxed, but the diesel cars are more taxed
16:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> so the more you drive, the less impact the car taxes have
16:36:44  <glx> a recent gasoline car can be more taxed than diesel because it generates more CO2
16:36:48  <Speeder_> heh, just found out Brazillian landowners pushed for slavery end... becuase paying wages to people was cheaper than giving food to people. you could pay them a pittance and let them get themselves screwed finding food and housing. O.o
16:37:25  <Eddi|zuHause> diesel cars also have a heavy stand currently because of the scandal about cheating emissions on the test bench
16:37:51  <Eddi|zuHause> and lots of older diesel cars are banned in cities
16:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause> because of air quality restrictions
16:38:18  <glx> yeah same here
16:38:59  <Speeder_> here the government official reason to ban diesel cars was pollution, but it is obvious this is not the real reason
16:39:23  <Speeder_> the real reason is that the government gives heavy subsidies to diesel itself, to create an economic stimulus for industries that need diesel (agriculture, transportation)
16:39:28  <glx> but most owners of very old diesel switched to less old diesel, because gasoline cars are rare on second hand market
16:39:48  <Speeder_> glx, where are you from, that gaosline cars are rare?
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16:40:58  <glx> they are not so rare in use, but owners usually keep them longer
16:47:10  <andythenorth> so I think newgrf town control would be interesting
16:47:21  <andythenorth> but I don't know if it actually solves the problem I have in FIRS
16:47:27  * andythenorth looking for suggestions
16:47:57  <andythenorth> there are a set of cargos for which the destination is towns
16:48:10  <andythenorth> I almost never deliver them because they have no purpose
16:48:30  <andythenorth> AND they go to small 1 or 2 tile industries which are very hard to serve due to town layout
16:48:48  <andythenorth> additional factors
16:49:14  <andythenorth> * cdist gives no incentive to deliver them, and doesn't work so well with them
16:49:41  <andythenorth> * these cargos aren't used for any town effects
16:50:07  <Speeder_> andythenorth, what cargos are these?
16:50:22  <andythenorth> building materials, food, goods, vehicles, etc
16:53:45  <nielsm> I think what's needed is better control of what buildings appear in a town
16:54:24  <nielsm> right now there's two special rules (bits) for "is a church" and "is a stadium", and a town has at most one of each of those, I'm not sure if it tries to always have one though
16:55:00  <nielsm> a more flexible extension of that would be useful, like "should have one per every 500 pop in town" or such
16:55:28  <Speeder_> andythenorth, well, some GS do that
16:55:28  <nielsm> and some sectioning of towns into zones (maybe not as strict as simcity or transport fever zones)
16:55:40  <Speeder_> some GS in fact expects FIRS to be present, so they can control town growth using these cargos
16:55:55  <andythenorth> so the additional factor for me
16:56:02  <andythenorth> * I mostly turn town growth off
16:56:14  <andythenorth> towns that grow are toxic
16:56:21  <andythenorth> they just block space for routes
16:57:15  <andythenorth> I think more interesting might be getting cargo out for cargo in
16:57:47  <andythenorth> can newgrf houses change production?
16:57:59  <andythenorth> FIRS might have to take control of houses
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17:03:54  <Speeder_> andythenorth, well... if you do that, leave that an option instead... I personally like making the towns grow
17:04:20  <andythenorth> FIRS can't control growth, only GS can do that
17:04:25  <andythenorth> I turn it off in player settings
17:04:26  <Speeder_> to me all the industry transpotation is pointless, if it is not messing wi th the population
17:04:35  <Speeder_> andythenorth, I mean, if FIRS take control of houses, make that optional
17:04:41  <Speeder_> not all players might want FIRS to mess with the houses
17:04:48  <andythenorth> yes
17:04:56  <Speeder_> or make that a separate newgrf entirely
17:05:06  <andythenorth> houses are broken with FIRS anyway, which is another reason
17:05:12  <andythenorth> I do wonder about merging all my grfs
17:05:17  <andythenorth> just have one grf
17:05:34  <andythenorth> it would simplify a lot of things
17:08:27  <Speeder_> andythenorth, what you mean houses are broken with FIRS?
17:08:47  <andythenorth> FIRS causes houses to accept weird cargos
17:08:58  <Speeder_> andythenorth, like what?
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17:09:38  <Speeder_> I am using a newgrf that mess with houses... so I wonder if that is why I didn't see anythign weird FIRS related
17:11:10  <andythenorth> it might only break the baseset houses
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17:17:48  <andythenorth> supermop_Home yo, played any Horse ever?  Got a question about railcars
17:24:22  <FLHerne> c.f. , that `` spam really does need to go :-/
17:24:34  <FLHerne> Is still the relevant code?
17:25:16  <supermop_Home> andythenorth i use the railcars pretty much all the time
17:26:01  <andythenorth> building long railcars, the running costs bother me
17:26:22  <andythenorth> I tried to tune them so they're not OP in gameplay
17:26:37  <andythenorth> but a long consist of railcars seems expensive to run
17:26:54  <andythenorth> option (a): add unpowered trailer coaches, that work with the sprite magic to set cabs etc
17:27:19  <andythenorth> option (b) reduce run costs by x% for additional units after first one
17:27:35  <andythenorth> option (c) just further reduce run costs
17:28:25  <andythenorth> option (d) make pax coaches adapt to the graphics of the railcar (this would make some complex switches ridiculously insane)
17:28:26  <supermop_Home> andythenorth id prefer (a)
17:28:36  <supermop_Home> or d
17:29:00  <andythenorth> I preferred (a) also, even though it messes up the buy menu more
17:29:04  <andythenorth> seems more natural
17:29:09  <supermop_Home> but the cost of a dmu consist is steep early in the game
17:29:15  <andythenorth> yes
17:29:29  <andythenorth> it's not intended
17:29:43  <supermop_Home> but i have no problem making a profit with long dmu rakes in a mature game
17:29:51  <andythenorth> me neither
17:30:00  <andythenorth> but also the power gets a bit silly
17:30:11  <andythenorth> 4 tiles might be 2000hp+
17:30:39  <andythenorth> we need vehicle variants in buy menu :)
17:30:48  <supermop_Home> the total HP of a subway train is probably pretty high compared to a LIRR locomotive hauled train out to Montauk
17:31:03  <andythenorth> yes, that's valid in some cases
17:31:22  <andythenorth> if I do them as driving trailers, they could follow the railcar directly in the buy menu
17:31:31  <andythenorth> give them 50hp or something
17:31:39  <andythenorth> 'auxiliary engine for light and power'
17:31:57  <andythenorth> I think that's actually realism in some cases :P
17:33:36  <andythenorth> I think trying to adapt to normal pax coaches gets very messy in the calculation of which sprite to show
17:34:00  <supermop_Home> yes
17:34:10  <supermop_Home> and there's just too many options
17:35:32  <supermop_Home> maybe the luxury car is the only case where you might want to mix it up, but i like keeping those separate as the province of special MUs and locomotives
17:35:50  <supermop_Home> one case would be the mail MUs
17:36:13  <supermop_Home> do you add another trailer for the Mail MUs?
17:44:54  <andythenorth> nah
17:45:33  <andythenorth> I'm already uncertain about whether to add 1 railcar trailer per generation (some complications) or 1 per railcar type (more buy menu)
17:46:08  <andythenorth> this would be a great case for 'variants' in the buy menu
17:46:19  <andythenorth> just add a lower cost, lower hp variant, on a + disclosure menu
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18:16:45  <Eddi|zuHause> more buy menu
18:20:40  <nielsm> isn't it more like passenger cars used to have dynamos attached to one of the axles to provide light, effectively adding a light braking force to that axle
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18:23:47  <andythenorth> Pikka simulated something like that
18:23:55  <andythenorth> parasitic reduction of engine hp
18:25:12  <Eddi|zuHause> unless you're going for xUSSR ultra-realistic heating and powering methods, i wouldn't bother
18:25:50  <andythenorth> so shall we try patching for vehicle variants in buy menu?
18:25:57  <nielsm> the double decker passenger cars currently running on danish rails also have an air condition system that pulls so much power, that the weight of the cars is rated up (from 50 or 55 tons to 60 tons) to make up for the reduction in tractive power available to diesel-electric locos
18:26:04  <andythenorth> iirc, it's just one prop, setting a parent ID
18:26:20  <andythenorth> and a disclosure widget similar to the one used in vehicle refit menu
18:26:27  <nielsm> for the purpose of determining the timetable that is
18:27:58  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: spec-wise, you can probably get away with one prop, but feature-wise it gets more complicated
18:28:20  <andythenorth> the buy menu is simple, the auto-replace is not
18:28:32  <Eddi|zuHause> the buy menu is far from simple
18:29:00  <andythenorth> I thought that, but then I was told I was wrong
18:29:06  <andythenorth> I considered sorting and filtering
18:29:13  <andythenorth> but seems that's not a problem
18:30:01  <Eddi|zuHause> also, what about sanity checking? putting a diesel and electric version in the same group?
18:30:25  <andythenorth> what about it?
18:30:42  <andythenorth> one shows only in electric depots, one doesn't
18:31:17  <andythenorth> what about wagons trying to parent to engines?
18:31:29  <andythenorth> or vice versa?
18:31:56  <nielsm> should we change so depot buy lists always show all buyable vehicles, but those not available for the railtype of the depot are grayed out?
18:32:51  <andythenorth> I hate to say this, but 'setting'?
18:32:52  <andythenorth> or filter
18:33:18  <nielsm> a better filtering UI for the buy menu is alwo on my wishlist
18:34:19  <nielsm> I'd love to make filter/sort conditions like order by power but hide all that cost over £30k
18:34:41  <andythenorth> do we have more UI space these days?
18:34:51  <andythenorth> optional horizontal filter stack
18:35:04  <nielsm> separate window popup?
18:35:25  <nielsm> horizontal extension pane is maybe better/more in line with the rest of the gui
18:35:28  <andythenorth> I would attach it like a drawer
18:35:32  <andythenorth> to one side
18:37:04  <andythenorth> maybe buy menu should be hierarchical groups like station building UI and object UI?
18:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> better visibility of new railtypes would help the "i can only buy diesel engines" faction
18:37:10  <andythenorth> only better layouts :P
18:38:38  <andythenorth> how does the tao go?  flat is better than nested?
18:38:40  <andythenorth> hmm
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18:59:34  <nielsm> perhaps have named groupings of vehicles? have some default groups that act by traction type (steam, diesel, electric, none) but allow newgrf vehicles to define their own, where a group is named by its string id and not a parent vehicle
19:00:33  <andythenorth> 'railcars'
19:00:41  <andythenorth> 'narrow gauge engines'
19:00:42  <andythenorth> etc
19:00:43  <supermop_Home> sometimes i convert my deport just for a quick check to see if there is a better enough electric locomotive than the diesel one i'm about to build
19:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> people are already complaining about the horribly inconsistent groupings of stations and objects
19:01:15  <supermop_Home> to see if this next train purchase maybe justifies electrifying some track
19:01:21  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause are they? :)
19:01:57  <supermop_Home> but i feel like letting people see electric trains in a plain depot may lead to all sorts of confused reports
19:02:36  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause "I see no inconsistency here"
19:02:38  <supermop_Home> i don't think objects should go with stations
19:02:53  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes:
19:03:17  <andythenorth> well yes
19:03:21  <supermop_Home> object is just a thing. just because someone draws an object to look like a station doesn't mean it makes more sense there than with the other thingd
19:03:22  <andythenorth> I find the same with ISR
19:03:31  <andythenorth> and I'm using a big object set and I can't find anything :)
19:03:34  <andythenorth> and the UI is weird
19:03:52  <andythenorth> but
19:03:56  <andythenorth> does it matter?
19:04:07  <supermop_Home> oof eddi my german is rusty
19:04:27  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: this is not about mixing objects and stations. i meant each one individually
19:05:03  <supermop_Home> ooh i learns a new thing
19:05:20  <supermop_Home> WIMRE
19:05:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that's basically "IIRC"
19:05:36  <supermop_Home> sounds better tho
19:05:57  <supermop_Home> like you could maybe pronounce it
19:06:06  <supermop_Home> instead of eeerk
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19:08:22  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home: the basic complaint is that in "best korean stations set" the "two-sided platforms" category contains matching buffer stops, but the "one-sided platforms" category doesn't, they're in a separate category
19:08:54  <supermop_Home> that's more the fault of the grf author than anything
19:09:44  <supermop_Home> isr is maybe a little too chopped up, but there is a consistent thinking to the categories at least
19:10:22  <andythenorth> anyway
19:10:30  <supermop_Home> honestly i use chips a lot because otherwise ill get too distracted building the stations when i'm just trying to set up a route
19:10:44  <andythenorth> I was a big advocate of "we shouldn't do x because it will get complaints / bug reports"
19:10:48  <supermop_Home> can always come back and rebuild them later
19:11:06  <andythenorth> but complaints don't matter, the dev interaction with forums or reddit is minimal already
19:11:18  <andythenorth> and bug reports, we established this week we don't need to do anything about them at all
19:11:30  <andythenorth> which clarified my thinking
19:11:47  <andythenorth> I think we should try more things :P
19:11:59  <andythenorth> but not things that are crap :P
19:12:12  <supermop_Home> andy reaches the zen of the old timer who no longer gives a shit
19:12:13  <glx> I agree with supermop_Home on the "buffer" case, it's not our UI, it's the grf
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19:13:20  <andythenorth> content = automatically not a problem
19:13:43  <glx> category come from the grf
19:14:05  <andythenorth> I know an Apple analogy will fall flat here, but the Mac never banned Comic Sans
19:14:21  <andythenorth> even though Jobs was a typography freak and a tyrant
19:14:44  <andythenorth> software can't legislate for whether the user has taste
19:15:05  <glx> yes, but openttd just displays what the grf says
19:16:52  <andythenorth> doesn't that mean we agree? :)
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19:18:34  <nielsm> you seem to be arguing for the same thing yes
19:19:55  <andythenorth> I had a bit of brain meltdown about bugs this week :P
19:20:09  <andythenorth> can't close them, and nobody will fix them :)
19:20:15  <andythenorth> so they just fill up github
19:20:36  <glx> a contributor may decide to take a look
19:20:46  <andythenorth> at work we have a way of segmenting off bugs that are valid, but no customer will encounter, or rarely
19:21:00  <andythenorth> if I close them, they actually tend to just get re-reported
19:21:17  <andythenorth> so we leave them open, and tagged in a way that's filtered out for doing actual work
19:22:25  <glx> yes, we take care of real bugs
19:22:40  <glx> other are just like feature requests
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19:24:40  <andythenorth> I'm kinda inclined to close bugs about trivial costs being wrong
19:24:51  <andythenorth> PRs would be fine, but just reporting it is pointless
19:25:06  <glx> but someone will report it again
19:25:11  <andythenorth> or like the dude who fixed 3 comment typos in a PR this morning, that's great
19:25:21  <andythenorth> but a bug report for that?  waste of everyone's time
19:25:29  <glx> it's james
19:26:07  <andythenorth> well Samu finds similar cost issues, but makes PRs for them
19:26:18  <andythenorth> it's the difference between contributing, and making demands on others?
19:27:30  <glx> for me the headquarter move issue is valid but importance is very very low
19:27:36  <milek7> filling bug is making demand?
19:30:03  <andythenorth> yes, it requires reading etc
19:30:17  <andythenorth> I see so many openttd bugs, but I don't file them, it would be bad for the project
19:31:51  <andythenorth> maybe my attitude is outdated
19:32:11  <andythenorth> when frosch was the only maintainer, reporting yet another bug could have been the thing that caused frosch to quit
19:32:18  <andythenorth> and that would have been the end of OpenTTD
19:32:52  <Eddi|zuHause> not reporting bugs to keep the bug count low is a clear case of "wrong incentive"
19:33:17  <andythenorth> not overwhelming the maintainers is a very serious concern
19:33:54  <Eddi|zuHause> but it's the job of the maintainers to filter their workload
19:34:09  <glx> it's open source, mainteners usually can filter the importance of the bug
19:34:13  <andythenorth> every bug has to be read, thought about, possibly replicated, and at minimum replied to
19:34:21  <glx> and if it's minor it will stay open
19:35:18  <FLHerne> Hm, we could have a "trivial" label for issues?
19:35:23  <milek7> I don't think there's any obligation to reply at all
19:35:36  <andythenorth> of course there is :)
19:35:55  <glx> there is a "trivial" label, it's "good first issue" :)
19:36:10  <andythenorth> it's not a legal obligation, but not replying to bug reports is very poor
19:38:03  <FLHerne> Then andythenorth can add `-label:trivial` to his bookmarks, and be happy :D
19:38:03  <andythenorth> I could be persuaded otherwise, maybe my attitude is outdated
19:38:51  <FLHerne> Eh, I agree that not replying at all is bad
19:39:22  <Eddi|zuHause> you could go "meh, let other people reply"
19:39:25  <andythenorth> maybe open source has moved on?
19:39:32  <nielsm> "good for beginners" and "not important" are two different things imo
19:39:33  <andythenorth> maybe replying is no longer a thing?
19:39:43  <andythenorth> 'not important' is a value judgement
19:39:48  <nielsm> one is "easy to solve", the other is "low impact/not worth spending time on"
19:40:03  <andythenorth> there are many things around my house that *should* be fixed
19:40:07  <andythenorth> but really?
19:40:15  <FLHerne> But a reply "We acknowledge this is a real issue, but it's clearly not critical. Maybe try fixing it yourself?" or so
19:40:24  <andythenorth> like every flake of paint, and every spot of damp?
19:40:30  <nielsm> yeah a canned reply like that can also work
19:40:39  <FLHerne> andythenorth: No, replying should definitely be a thing
19:40:41  <andythenorth> I have canned replies for feature requests
19:41:00  <FLHerne> Nothing more demotivating than an unanswered <whatever>
19:41:37  <andythenorth> unlikely to attract further contributions
19:41:41  <Eddi|zuHause> there's something worse: you find someone else's question about the same thing and that was also unanswered
19:41:42  <andythenorth> unless you are someone like a James
19:43:09  <andythenorth> remember known_bugs.txt? :)
19:43:53  <andythenorth> still exists :o
19:43:54  <andythenorth>
19:44:15  <andythenorth> " If you do, do not act surprised, because we WILL flame you!" < that definitely seems outdated these days
19:44:54  <glx> it's like readme, nobody reads them anyway :)
19:45:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like something TrueBrain would say :p
19:45:25  <andythenorth> we all used to say stuff like that no? :)
19:45:33  <andythenorth> "The current list of known bugs that we intend to fix can be found in our bug tracking system at"
19:45:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that statement would be true
19:46:01  <andythenorth> no
19:46:13  <andythenorth> maybe Github issues are no longer really a 'to-do' list?
19:46:32  <andythenorth> nobody uses issue trackers as a way of planning actual work do they?
19:46:34  <glx> well no given time frame
19:46:42  <andythenorth> we all have our own private little system, like trello or just notes
19:46:55  <nielsm> I think the issue list should contain all known, unfixed bugs
19:47:02  <nielsm> even if they are unlike to ever be fixed
19:47:13  <andythenorth> issue trackers are more like putting up a flag so other people can say '+1 I have this'
19:47:21  <andythenorth> any real work is either private, or in a PR
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19:48:40  <andythenorth> "won't fix" can be a valid label
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19:48:56  <andythenorth> then known-bugs.txt becomes a link to a filter
19:49:30  <milek7> FLHerne: personally I don't think canned response is somehow better than no response
19:49:34  <milek7> it's equivalent
19:50:17  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz commented on pull request #8174: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments.
19:50:49  <andythenorth> not if you're the contributor
19:50:55  <andythenorth> I don't mean a bot
19:51:07  <andythenorth> the bot got deleted for some reason :P
19:51:28  <nielsm> even a canned response (triggered by a human) shows someone has looked at your report
19:51:48  <nielsm> even if the response is "looks like a bug, but don't expect a fix unless you make it yourself"
19:52:02  <andythenorth> many contributors start by finding and reporting bugs
19:52:10  <andythenorth> silence does not encourage them
20:07:29  <FLHerne> milek7: Yes, I don't mean a literally automated response
20:07:55  <FLHerne> Just a polite human one, even if it is "stock"
20:08:15  <FLHerne> andythenorth is good at writing those
20:08:29  <FLHerne> It's just that he tends to close the bug afterward :P
20:11:04  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: honestly, i think "the bot" did more harm than good
20:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> in this project, things are not time-critical
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20:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause> it's done when it's done
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20:34:40  <andythenorth> I think it's very dependent on the number of active reviewers
20:34:57  <andythenorth> when there are very few, the key thing above all is to avoid maintainer burnout
20:35:05  <andythenorth> when there are's more laissez faire
20:35:11  * andythenorth -> TV time
20:38:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #7893: Dedicated server crash
20:38:47  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo closed issue #7893: Dedicated server crash
20:38:54  <Speeder_> andythenorth, when you get back, and you tell me what the Iron Horse brake car does? is it useful or only for show?
20:39:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo closed issue #7496: Crashes on start - malloc(): invalid next size (unsorted)
20:39:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #7496: Crashes on start - malloc(): invalid next size (unsorted)
20:39:31  <andythenorth> Speeder_ only for show
20:46:09  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the usual solution for burnout is to recruit new people faster :p
20:51:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nikolas commented on issue #8104: SDL2 : Fullscreen to Window
20:57:39  <Speeder_> industries are composite of several buildings?
20:57:58  <Yexo> composite of several tiles
21:05:27  <nielsm> and industry has one or more tilelayouts, and a tilelayout consists of one or more industrytiles
21:05:33  *** arikover has joined #openttd
21:05:52  <nielsm> the same industrytile can be used many times in one layout, and across multiple layouts
21:06:08  <nielsm> I think the same industrytile can even be used in multiple different industries?
21:08:34  <Speeder_> alright, got in a catch22 situation here on my planning
21:08:45  <Speeder_> I think will be easier to solve it, by now returning to my editing of FIRS
21:08:58  <Speeder_> so... any link explaining how to easily compile NML on MSYS?
21:10:06  <nielsm> you don't even actually need to compile it
21:10:15  <nielsm> it can run as-is with just python
21:10:32  <nielsm> but it'll use a slower encoder for the graphics
21:10:51  <Speeder_> so how I install the trunk nml?
21:11:03  <Speeder_> the master*
21:11:04  <nielsm> you download it and then run it
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21:13:22  <FLHerne> Hm, nml in-browser with pypyjs?
21:13:45  <nielsm> upload a zip and get a compiled grf back?
21:13:51  <FLHerne> Something like that
21:14:03  <nielsm> not even uploading I guess
21:14:18  <FLHerne> It wouldn't work well with all these weird buildsystems though
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21:15:11  <FLHerne> By the time you've run Make or CPP or andy's python templating stack, nmlc is the easy bit :p
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21:15:48  <Yexo> to get it to work with the build stacks you need to first pack it up as an electron app again
21:16:53  <Speeder_> yay, seemly is  compiling FIRS3 successfully
21:17:00  <Speeder_> glx, I think your patch from 3 days ago worked
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21:32:03  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause how to recruit new people faster? :)
21:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know? :p
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21:48:43  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] JGRennison opened pull request #8175: Fix #7970: Recursive faults in Windows post-crash due to event loop input
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22:04:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #8092: Swedish translation issue in the performance rating window
22:04:41  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo closed issue #8092: Swedish translation issue in the performance rating window
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22:14:47  <Speeder_> is "produce" block mandatory?
22:17:37  <andythenorth> no, depends on the industry
22:18:05  <andythenorth> there are multiple ways to implement cargo production
22:20:30  <Speeder_> andythenorth, FIRS always use it?
22:20:57  <Speeder_> I am trying to figure out best way to add NML5 style stuff without changing the NML4.5 ones.
22:21:20  <andythenorth> FIRS probably doesn't use it for hotel
22:21:28  <andythenorth> or black hole industries maybe
22:22:36  <andythenorth> if you are using the actual FIRS codebase, and not just editing the nml, this is a hard way to go
22:22:46  <andythenorth> you'll have to engage with all the FIRS internal crap
22:22:57  <andythenorth> you'll need a new class of industry
22:23:10  <andythenorth> it's possible to do that btw
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22:40:58  <Speeder_> andythenorth, FIRS4 has support for each cargo producing something specific?
22:41:02  <Speeder_> like the nml specs support?
22:41:27  <andythenorth> no, I think it's all 'produce' in FIRS 4
22:41:29  * andythenorth looks
22:43:49  <andythenorth> yup all produce
22:44:19  <andythenorth>
22:44:59  * andythenorth wonders about FIRS 3
22:45:17  <glx> FIRS3 uses produce too
22:45:22  <glx> but the old one
22:45:49  <andythenorth> looks like FIRS 3 uses action 0 for tertiaries like hotel
22:46:39  <andythenorth> yeah it sets prod multiplier, I think it's action 0 for a few industries, produce for most
22:49:47  <Speeder_> why FIRS uses produce?
22:49:56  <Speeder_> just so I get what it does differently from action 0
22:51:15  <andythenorth> for primaries, it's the only sane way to adjust production to account for supplies
22:51:33  <andythenorth> for secondary, it's the only sane way to do combinatorial production
22:51:58  <andythenorth> for tertiary, I switched to produce so I'm only using one method not two
22:58:36  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] techgeeknz left a comment on commit: Cleanup: Correct typographic errors in code comments.
23:18:32  <Speeder_> combinatorial production? as in... several inputs leading to only one output?
23:21:07  <andythenorth> as in different ratios depending which cargos are recently delivered
23:23:53  <Speeder_> andythenorth, that is the default now with nml5 no?
23:25:25  <andythenorth> there is a new syntax for action 0 which may or may not do that
23:25:33  <andythenorth> I don't use it so I don't know :)
23:25:51  <andythenorth> TL;DR most newgrf problems tend towards using the callback if one exists
23:26:01  <andythenorth> produce is a callback, action 0 props are proprs
23:26:10  <andythenorth> props are generally less flexible
23:26:26  <andythenorth> it's not universal advice, callback is not always needed
23:26:42  <andythenorth> also bed :)
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23:26:52  <Speeder_> andythenorth, the syntax example for nml5 has this: accept_cargo("IORE", produce_cargo("STEL", 1), produce_cargo("SLAG", 0.25))
23:26:55  <Speeder_> D:
23:26:58  <Speeder_> :(

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