Log for #openttd on 31st May 2020:
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00:18:40  <Speeder_> should I repurpose some existing cargos of other NewGRFs or create my own?
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00:33:56  <supermop_Home> that 3rd platform at fackslatt is pretty useless excepte when starting new trains right now
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00:36:10  <supermop_Home> but if it tunneled under the HQ to join those express tracks directly, then the space held for the express could go to a new North-west bound train
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00:56:45  <Speeder_> FLHerne, for example I am thinking of using toyland sugar
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07:48:31  <Wolf01> <- andythenorth
07:48:57  <andythenorth> a bug? :o
07:48:59  <andythenorth> surely not :)
07:56:27  <Wolf01> <- this is a bug
07:58:41  <nielsm>  should maybe look at this again
08:00:19  <andythenorth> there's certainly some noisy demands for it
08:01:25  * andythenorth wonders about modular complete airports
08:01:34  <andythenorth> i.e. airports just become joinable
08:01:40  <andythenorth> but there are no taxi-ways between them
08:02:18  <nielsm> the original city airport would need a lot of special cases under my imagined model
08:02:41  <nielsm> just due to the cross-shaped taxiways
08:06:22  <nielsm> perhaps the solution should be to have some magic multi-tile modules with movements custom defined, but then you're already into complete newgrf airport territory and might as well just do that
08:07:04  <nielsm> regardless even for newgrf airpots, I think defining the state machine could be left out with a sufficiently clever algorithm that works on allowed movements
08:12:57  <Wolf01> Drop the deadlock rule and make aircraft crash :P
08:16:52  <nielsm> nothing would even crash, unless you imagine aircraft parking on the runway and more aircraft then landing there
08:18:01  <Wolf01> Yes, I meant that, also when an aircraft decide to cross a runway at the same time as another one is trying to land
08:24:57  <nielsm>
08:25:03  <nielsm> need to support this situation
08:25:11  <Wolf01> XD
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08:52:32  <nielsm> would it make sense to allow airports without (reachable) hangars?
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09:00:01  <nielsm> expanded a bunch on that ideas page now
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09:12:47  <Wolf01> <nielsm> would it make sense to allow airports without (reachable) hangars? <- why not? You won't be able to purchase/replace/service at those
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09:39:54  <Samu> hi
09:45:03  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] hewimp opened issue #8177: Ships
09:45:14  <nielsm> great issue
09:49:16  <andythenorth> super
09:49:25  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] hewimp commented on issue #8177: Ships
09:49:59  <nielsm> what
09:50:28  <nielsm> I'm closing that with a reference to tt-forums for gameplay and grf dev help
09:50:37  <andythenorth> thanks
09:50:43  <andythenorth> it's hitting max ship speed I think
09:50:48  <andythenorth> which possibly overflows?
09:50:57  <andythenorth> resulting in a negative speed?
09:51:01  <andythenorth> or is clamped to 0
09:51:03  <nielsm> oh... maybe?
09:51:08  * andythenorth guessing
09:51:14  <andythenorth> redFISH is a fork of FISH
09:51:29  <andythenorth> but I have more projects and ideas than time, and so many bugs on my head already :)
09:51:43  <andythenorth> not going to try and figure out that one
09:52:27  <andythenorth> I like forks, I don't like the obligation I then have to fix the issues in forks :|
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09:55:49  <Wolf01> I would like to know what could happen to the people on that ship... would they be splattered to the nearest wall when that happen?
09:56:10  <nielsm> yep the ship that has a speed of 128 km/h goes at absurd slowness
09:58:00  <nielsm>
09:59:19  <Wolf01> Speed is relative
09:59:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8177: Ships
10:07:06  <nielsm> there, made it into a proper report
10:07:51  <nielsm> Wolf01 ah yes maybe it's moving so fast it travels the entire route and then a bit every single tick :D
10:10:22  <andythenorth> :)
10:29:12  <Wolf01> So you are looking at a ghost :D
10:29:38  <Wolf01> You can't both see the ship and the speed at which it's going
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10:46:04  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on issue #8177: Ships with max speed overflow to near-zero speed
10:46:18  <FLHerne> nielsm: ^ not a bg
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11:41:49  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #8177: Ships with max speed overflow to near-zero speed
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13:02:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo closed issue #8098: The transfer value in "Transfer: £[number]" can be negative.
13:02:02  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo commented on issue #8098: The transfer value in "Transfer: £[number]" can be negative.
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13:29:27  <FLHerne> Yexo-: I don't understand, what callback do you think is involved in the ship thing?
13:31:34  <glx> CB36 probably
13:40:39  <frosch123> yes, CB36 can set speeds up to 0x7FFF
13:42:32  <glx> but I imagine byte casting used on acceleration calculation doesn't like that
13:43:19  <frosch123> most vehiclecontroller have a loop to move a  vehicle multiple steps per tick
13:43:35  <frosch123> but iirc ships do not have that, so can only move one world coordinate per tick at max
13:43:56  <frosch123> quite sure people tried to change that in the past, but did not finish
13:44:11  <FLHerne> Hm
13:44:55  <FLHerne> But CB36 is documented to adjust prop 0B, which is documented as a byte
13:45:08  <FLHerne> So I still don't think it's an actual bug
13:46:01  <frosch123> limitations are never a bug, removing limitations are features
13:46:19  <FLHerne> Well, yes
13:46:46  <FLHerne> But currently the issue is tagged as a bug :p
13:47:04  <frosch123> offer a refund?
13:47:41  <FLHerne> hah
13:48:15  <glx> RV also use a byte prop but I think it's possible to have faster than 127km/h RV
13:48:44  <frosch123> RV have two properties, it's a very silly part of ttdp
13:48:53  <FLHerne> glx: With prop 0B you're limited to 127km/h for RVs
13:49:06  <FLHerne> But prop15 has a different multiplier
13:49:20  <frosch123> which is converted into the same thing in game
13:49:35  <frosch123> anyway, pretty sure RV also have cb36 for speed
13:49:46  <frosch123> so cb36 can set higher speeds than prop15
13:50:47  <glx> prop 08 and 15 are both bytes anyway
13:51:30  <glx> but indeed lower multiplier of prop 15 allows higher speed
14:01:50  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8177: Ships with max speed overflow to near-zero speed
14:18:01  <glx> BTW internally max speed is 16 bits
14:22:26  <nielsm> if the ship movement can be changed to work in 16 bits without affecting normal ships I don't see why not
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15:15:14  <andythenorth> yo
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15:17:23  <andythenorth> so anyone tried the tech tree GS?
15:17:45  <andythenorth> can't add it to my running game, and I need to keep this one going for testing newgrfs :P
15:18:19  <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't the speed limit usually because of maximum movement distance per tick?
15:20:36  * andythenorth really wishes the game continued when paused
15:21:22  <FLHerne> Well, you'd still need an actual pause
15:21:59  <andythenorth> 'stop'
15:22:54  <andythenorth> I keep thinking about starting a patchpack
15:23:01  <andythenorth> but I am just not good enough at c++
15:23:20  <andythenorth> I've been programming for 37 years, it takes 10 to be good, and I am not good :P
15:29:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "i've been doing this of X years" is never a good argument
15:29:35  <Eddi|zuHause> also, it's 10000 hours, not 10 years
15:30:37  <andythenorth> yes
15:30:44  <andythenorth> I was using shorthand :P
15:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause> like lightbulbs that say "1 year" and then go out after 3 months, because you use them for 12 hours a day, instead of 3 like they assumed for "average" use
15:32:30  <andythenorth> so 10k hours would be 3 hours per day for 10 years?
15:32:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. basically
15:33:17  <andythenorth> hmm
15:33:22  * andythenorth wonders about EddiPP
15:33:41  <Eddi|zuHause> what would that constitute of?
15:33:52  <frosch123> state machines
15:33:58  <frosch123> every else removed
15:34:15  <frosch123> just a turing simulator
15:34:17  <Eddi|zuHause> 10 things that sound good on paper but are eternally unfinished
15:43:21  <andythenorth> probably 10 things the exact opposite of what I would add :)
15:43:32  <andythenorth> and yet many of the ideas in my newgrfs are from Eddi :)
15:43:45  <Yexo> FLHerne: As glx said it's CB36. IMO not an OpenTTD bug. CB36 modifies the original property which is byte-sized, so returning anything larger than 0xFF is a newgrf bug
15:43:59  <andythenorth> is it worth starting a patchpack just to fix tropic landscape gen? :P
15:44:12  <Yexo> And while internal max speed is stored as 16 bits, anything more than 8 bits is not supported by the movement code
15:45:15  <nielsm> ottd should then be warning about a buggy newgrf
15:46:02  <Yexo> It definitely could, but exhaustively warning about everything a newgrf can possible do that's out of spec is not feasible
15:46:05  <nielsm> instead of producing behaviour that's clearly unintended but not clear whose fault it is
15:47:12  <Yexo> ship_cmd.cpp:208 uses CB36 and stores the return value. That'd be the place to introduce an extra check and/or warning
15:47:57  <Eddi|zuHause> just clamp() it?
15:48:28  <Yexo> clamping it has the downside that we hide the issue now, and if at some point in the future we want to expand the spec to allow higher speeds we need to remove that clamp() again
15:48:46  <Yexo> Which might lead to older newgrfs suddenly have ships with higher speeds than intended
15:49:07  <Yexo> For this specific case that's not a problem, but it can hide other bugs
15:49:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that's not a problem, because those grfs were out-of-specs anyway, so no guarantee about keeping their behaviour
15:49:54  <Yexo> If we go that route, we don't have to do anything: they're out of spec, which results in very slow moving ships currently.
15:50:13  <Eddi|zuHause> we'd have to warn about every "but these reserved bits should be zero" instance in the specs
15:51:03  <Yexo> afk for a bit again
15:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause> so we have two orthogonal options that we can either do or not do: 1) issue a warning for out-of-range, which would amplify the error, and 2) clamp back into range, which would cover up the error
15:55:13  <nielsm> any cb36 warning should probably also have a flag for "has already been shown" to avoid spamming the user
15:59:08  <Eddi|zuHause> next architectural question: should each code calling the callback provide its own range checks, or should the callback handler do the range checking, being provided with the appropriate information (signed, unsigned, lower bound, upper bound)
16:05:33  <frosch123> can we just agree that eddi implements faster ships, and be done with it?
16:05:57  <nielsm> just make all the ships faster yeah
16:09:53  <supermop_Home> switch to a minimum ship speed
16:10:07  <supermop_Home> no ship can go slower than say 70 kmh
16:10:11  <andythenorth> don't write bad newgrfs :P
16:10:34  <andythenorth> I can't find the setting to turn off the vertical gridlines in train depot window
16:10:42  <andythenorth> anyone know what it's called?
16:11:27  <andythenorth> maybe it's in openttd.cfg
16:11:55  <Eddi|zuHause> weren't you the reason they were introduced in the first place? :p
16:12:16  <andythenorth> yes
16:12:22  <andythenorth> they're missing in my client
16:12:35  <andythenorth> I want to turn them back on
16:13:15  <andythenorth> or have they been removed recently?
16:13:24  <andythenorth> I couldn't see a commit mentioning removal
16:13:30  <frosch123> they are disabled if you mix 28px and 32px newgrfs
16:13:54  <andythenorth> ok so I need to make my own PIPE grf
16:14:25  <andythenorth> is putting pipelines into Horse out of scope? :)
16:14:45  <andythenorth> Iron Pipe :P
16:15:25  <frosch123> Popeye
16:15:26  <nielsm> but why disable them? the point (to me) is to know whether trains will fit in particular stations, not to count cars
16:15:45  <Eddi|zuHause> implement NotPipeTypes?
16:16:10  <andythenorth> the abuse of trains actually works fine
16:16:17  <frosch123> oh, i read the other day that nrt was recoined to newgrf-road&tram-types
16:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: but the platform length is different from the depot pixel length
16:16:40  <andythenorth> I enjoy the evolution
16:16:51  <frosch123> so, we can recoin everything to NoGrf
16:16:57  <andythenorth> entropy
16:17:04  <andythenorth> I considered merging all my grfs into my patchpack
16:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: so 28px and 32px vehicles need different grid width
16:17:34  <andythenorth> anyway, the PIPE grf really shouldn't work in gameplay, but it really does, for the simple case of short point-to-point routes with one 'train'
16:17:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that, or we deprecate 28px vehicles and stretch everything to 32px
16:17:49  <frosch123> nielsm: the alternative is to draw 4 blank pixels between 28px wagons in depot
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16:18:11  <frosch123> both solutions are ugly for some situations :)
16:18:19  <frosch123> both solutions result in bug reports :)
16:18:23  <frosch123> no option is winning
16:18:36  <andythenorth> I have made my peace with bug reports
16:18:48  <andythenorth> frosch123 seems we can kinda just ignore bug reports
16:19:20  <andythenorth> I was very -1, but I am slightly persuaded now, like +0.1
16:19:21  <supermop_Home> 28 and 32?
16:19:38  <frosch123> andythenorth: switch to jgrpp
16:19:51  <frosch123> since nrt it probably also has less bugs
16:19:54  <andythenorth> I would, but it doesn't actually do the things I want :P
16:20:04  <andythenorth> it kind of goes the opposite way to what I want
16:20:07  <andythenorth> except daylength
16:20:13  <andythenorth> andypp
16:20:46  <andythenorth> one day I'll make an NRT grf, and find the bugs :P
16:20:53  <frosch123> you could try to make andy grfs work exclusively in andypp, and see whether that is enough to win the pp competition
16:21:03  <andythenorth> that is what I would do
16:21:07  <andythenorth> also not MP safe
16:21:35  <andythenorth> there are too many things I want to experiment with that require more newgrf API :P
16:22:49  <andythenorth> newgrf town control might be the main one :P
16:23:05  <frosch123> NoTowns :)
16:23:40  <frosch123> or just NOT
16:23:49  <andythenorth> I'm considering making a 'town' industry
16:24:01  <frosch123> V already did
16:24:02  <andythenorth> it would solve a lot of 'problems'
16:24:14  <andythenorth> there might be new problems :P
16:24:14  <frosch123> yeti home
16:24:20  <andythenorth> :P
16:25:05  <andythenorth> did no-one ever do yeti@home?
16:25:26  <andythenorth> your PC scans pictures of the himalayas for cryptids?
16:25:31  <frosch123> it was more about yeti@work
16:25:57  <frosch123> oh, you mean the YETI research project
16:26:03  <frosch123> i think that was canceled years ago
16:26:27  <frosch123> i wonder, what was it's effect in civ1ß
16:27:11  <frosch123> ah, just generic +50% research
16:28:36  <Eddi|zuHause> SETI@HOME was stopped a few months ago
16:29:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but the whole distributed calculation infrastructure is being used for other research projects now
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16:32:50  <frosch123> probably for bitcoins
16:33:11  <nielsm> looks like it's just a few minutes now until the astronauts disembarks the Crew Dragon onto the ISS
16:33:16  <frosch123> or is that horse dead yet?
16:34:52  <nielsm> bitcoin still exists and is probably still consuming more energy than the value of the transactions performed
16:36:03  <Borg> saaaatan ;D perfect.. perfect.. ;>
16:36:20  <Borg> PBS back signal as aux path selector
16:36:35  <Borg> took me a while to get correct p0, p1, p2 + pbs_back_penalty
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16:36:53  <Eddi|zuHause> no, not bitcoin, but things like protein folding and stuff
16:37:23  <milek7> nielsm: I don't think so, total transaction value is likely huge
16:38:12  <milek7> maybe comparing consumed energy to total mined value
16:40:54  <andythenorth> we should rent our openttd botnet to coin miners?
16:41:17  <andythenorth> based on CPU use, I assume we're doing *something* with the client other than just running the game?
16:41:23  <nielsm> oh yes! make a multithreaded openttd
16:41:33  <nielsm> the other threads don't necessarily play the game tho
16:41:45  <andythenorth> maybe it's just the Horse graphics calculations that take so much CPU
16:41:54  <andythenorth> thread for newgrf action 2 chains? o_O
16:44:17  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that only works if you can defer reading the resulty by 1 tick
16:44:35  <andythenorth> I'm assuming Horse is to blame
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16:47:48  <nielsm> well I did make that newgrf profiling feature which is actually in 1.10 :)
16:54:19  <nielsm> ...but it also requires some more tooling to make sense of the results, I suppose
17:00:19  <andythenorth> seems nml doesn't implement var 0x61?
17:01:28  <andythenorth>
17:02:31  <nielsm> soryr can't look right now, watching video of a door being opened
17:03:37  <andythenorth> ha
17:03:43  <andythenorth> in a vacuum?
17:04:08  <nielsm> I hope not
17:05:02  <nielsm> but it is several hundred km above the surface of the earth
17:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: that door is probably closer to earth surface than my distance from you
17:17:53  <nielsm> yeah
17:19:53  <supermop_Home> is that a sequined dinosaur?
17:22:06  <supermop_Home> i assume that is not official equipment
17:24:53  <SpComb> it's an official SpaceX zero-gravity indicator
17:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> dinosaurs in space, that was a doctor who episode or something?
17:26:20  <SpComb>
17:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: you mean a free fall indicator? because gravity up there is probably still 90% of surface gravity:p
17:27:51  <frosch123> flying is the art of falling and missing the floor
17:35:07  <supermop_Home> we'll i am less interested in watching ted cruz's blue blazer
17:37:35  <frosch123> did he jump out of the dinosaur?
17:43:19  <andythenorth> so what's the go with prop 25?
17:43:34  <andythenorth> I could use it for things like marking up 'this is a passenger car'?
17:43:44  <andythenorth> for the super complicated sprite rules I have?
17:44:54  <andythenorth> nvm, I'll do it in python, less to go wrong :D
17:46:23  <frosch123> prop25 is for communication wagon -> engine
17:48:20  <frosch123> i don't know of a use-case that cannot be done by counting vehids instead
17:54:01  <andythenorth> IDs were my first choice :)
17:54:17  <andythenorth> I have some self-inflicted problems with using them in templating for stored procedures :P
17:54:35  * andythenorth fixes that
18:04:50  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think andy's problem is that he wants to count potentially lots of IDs
18:07:55  <frosch123> i wanted to write a for-each operator, but didn't
18:08:18  <frosch123> though now that nml support functions, there is actually a chance of it getting implemented in nml
18:09:19  <Eddi|zuHause> replace prop25 with permanent storage, and make a version of var42 with custom operators (and, or, add, min, max, ...)
18:09:40  <frosch123> declarative languages suck
18:09:57  <frosch123> either for-each or map-reduce
18:10:50  <Eddi|zuHause> functional action 2
18:11:02  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause you are correct, but I can count the IDs in python and just do a big switch
18:11:30  <andythenorth> how many values can an action 2 branch on? :P
18:11:32  <andythenorth> I might run out
18:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but then you don't have a "position in chain" variable
18:14:56  <andythenorth> no
18:15:09  <andythenorth> I gave up on that case in the assumption it will never be added :)
18:15:48  <andythenorth> there's usually an alternative way to design around the 'problem' which is why I don't mind that newgrf spec is quite conservative nowadays
18:16:11  <andythenorth> what I want to do on Tuesday might be deleted by Friday :P
18:18:38  <andythenorth> also I'm doing the action 2 chain equivalent of trick shots
18:19:04  <andythenorth> making increasingly complicated rules for which sprite to show, modified by neighbouring vehicles :P
18:19:14  <frosch123> andythenorth: there are 255 cases max, but you can chain switches
18:19:29  <andythenorth> thanks, I'll put a guard in
18:19:54  <frosch123> ottd sorts the cases to do binary searches, so many cases are no problem
18:19:56  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think my dummy switch is closing in on the 255 mark
18:20:51  <frosch123> does it become less dummy if you remove some cases?
18:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's just there so all string ids and "global" action2s are referenced
18:21:59  <frosch123> well, in that case you run out of action2 ids anyway
18:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause> it could trivially be split into two
18:22:37  <Eddi|zuHause> i think string ids are 12 bit or so
18:23:21  <frosch123> 10
18:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i was at 187 strings and action2s went 188 to 252
18:27:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i could probably rewrite the action2s with procedures, which ideally would eliminate all but one
18:27:41  <frosch123> sounds like cets source would shrink from 100MB to 1kB
18:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the combined source file was something like 11MB
18:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> which is roughly the same as FIRS
18:30:04  <frosch123> horse  was 15MB a year ago (that's what's on my disk)
18:30:54  <Eddi|zuHause> by "combined source file" i meant what's fed into nmlc
18:31:21  <frosch123> yes
18:32:21  <Eddi|zuHause> nfo source is 19MB, final GRF is 22MB
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18:40:02  <andythenorth> I could frosch123 Horse is 6.9MB currently
18:41:57  <frosch123> aw, i looked in the wrong row, 15 was the .grf :/
18:44:03  <Speeder_> can an experient OpenTTD player tell me what is the problems of using industries sets that have lots of cargos?
18:44:09  <Speeder_> compared to using something more simplier, that is.
18:45:17  <Eddi|zuHause> mixed trains may be tricky to set up, trains which focus on one single cargo are simpler
18:45:34  <andythenorth> Speeder_ how long have you got? :)
18:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause> not all vehicle sets support all cargos, or refit at stations
18:45:49  <Speeder_> andythenorth, I am not going anywhere :P
18:46:07  <andythenorth> frosch123 I'm sure Horse *was* 15MB or so until procedures were added to nml
18:46:37  <andythenorth> Speeder_ problems of many cargos (list follows)
18:46:42  <andythenorth> - overwhelming to players
18:46:56  <andythenorth> - makes the cargo payment chart unusable
18:47:07  <andythenorth> - makes the station list unusable (silly 2 char abbreviations)
18:47:28  <andythenorth> - makes the cdist cargoflow unusable
18:47:40  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, ah, so that is not just my impression... I had a bunch of sailing ships routes that were working fine until I switched to a SQUID ship... then the route broke down due to refit at station misbehaving.
18:47:40  <andythenorth> - is hard to design a good grf with
18:47:45  <andythenorth> - takes a long time to play test
18:48:08  <andythenorth> - makes the vehicle refit menu unusable
18:48:17  <andythenorth> - makes the vehicle refit at station menu unusable
18:48:37  * andythenorth can't think of much else,
18:49:08  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: cargodist doesn't properly maintain routes for which a vehicle could be refitted to, only if it actually ran with that refit at least once in the last <some period (2 years?)>
18:49:42  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, I noticed that too
18:50:17  <Speeder_> also noticed cargodist sometimes ignore capacity entirely
18:50:55  <Speeder_> for example I had the following situation: diamond mine -> 70 ships -> far away port. then I built one ship to a closer new port. cargodist solution was send half of the cargo to each port, ignorign one had 70 ships and the other had 1
18:51:06  <andythenorth> cdist almost entirely ignores capacity
18:51:31  <Speeder_> how cdist chooses destination anyway?
18:51:34  <andythenorth> it doesn't
18:51:39  <andythenorth> there's no destination
18:51:43  <andythenorth> just a 'next hop'
18:51:47  <Eddi|zuHause> cargodist only ever chooses "next hop"
18:51:48  <Speeder_> for example I Saw a bunch of conflicting opinions on reddit about what settings to use with FIRS
18:52:04  <andythenorth> with FIRS you should use 'effect of distance on demand: 0%'
18:52:06  <Eddi|zuHause> everything else is just guesswork and statistics
18:52:12  <andythenorth> but unfortunately that breaks cities
18:52:22  <andythenorth> so you can't use 0%
18:52:26  <Speeder_> what "effect of distance on demand" does exactly?
18:52:39  <andythenorth> further away hops get less cargo assigned
18:53:05  <andythenorth> cargodist is remarkable, but it really doesn't do what people think it does
18:53:18  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: for cargo, you need low effect of distance, so supplies are distributed evenly across all destinations, but for passengers, you need high effect of distance, or all links will be hopelessly overloaded
18:53:49  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, and lemme guess... ottd doesn't support splitting the effect like that?
18:53:57  <Eddi|zuHause> nope
18:54:29  <andythenorth> nope
18:54:52  <andythenorth> also for cdist with FIRS, you can only serve 2 destinations per pickup station
18:55:29  <Speeder_> andythenorth, why is that?
18:56:57  <andythenorth> subsequent destinations will take a *very* long time to get assigned cargo
18:56:58  <Eddi|zuHause> 2 is a bit exaggerated, but the more you try, the more likely one will end up empty
18:57:13  <Speeder_> totally unrelated question: OTTD behaves well if I rename "existing" cargo? or stuff will break?
18:57:41  <andythenorth> once 2 links are up, no 'any destination' cargo seems to be generated
18:57:58  <andythenorth> I never figured out quite what the issue is, I just changed the way I play the game
18:58:10  <andythenorth> fonso did look into it, but there was no conclusion
18:58:13  <Speeder_> andythenorth, oooh... I see what you mean, I saw that even wiht only one destination
18:58:22  <andythenorth> no it should be fine with one destination
18:58:25  <Eddi|zuHause> Speeder_: you should stay away from modifying passengers, mail, goods or food
18:59:05  <Speeder_> Eddi|zuHause, I heard this is because houses are kinda hardcoded to expect these in certain slots and all
18:59:09  <Speeder_> but what about other cargo?
18:59:45  <Eddi|zuHause> most other cargos should be fine
19:00:52  <nielsm> water can also be risky
19:01:52  <Speeder_> but if I rename for example beans, as "soybeans", would that break newgrfs that rely on beans?
19:02:24  <Eddi|zuHause> no, newgrfs only look for the cargo label
19:03:01  <andythenorth> but if they're soybeans, change the label to SOYB
19:03:03  <nielsm> and AI and GS should also only be looking at the cargo label
19:03:04  <andythenorth> or similar
19:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> (but graphics will be wrong if you get too creative with the original expectations)
19:03:21  <andythenorth> there was a fad for reusing labels for a long time
19:03:23  <andythenorth> but it's mad
19:06:07  <Speeder_> andythenorth, why?
19:06:19  <andythenorth> because apples aren't oranges
19:06:23  <andythenorth> and vice versa
19:06:33  <andythenorth> call a thing what the thing is
19:06:51  <Speeder_> well, soybeans are still beans...
19:06:57  <nielsm> if you change BEAN to be soybeans then you can't have "plain beans" any longer
19:06:59  <andythenorth> everything is just cargo then
19:07:07  <Speeder_> :P
19:07:10  <andythenorth> there is also a long standing joke about STUF
19:07:16  <nielsm> just distinguish things unless there's an extremely good reason not to
19:07:19  <andythenorth> the one-cargo game
19:07:19  <Speeder_> STUF I like that
19:07:24  <andythenorth> only one cargo needed
19:07:34  <andythenorth> 'accepts: Stuff, produces: Stuff'
19:07:37  <andythenorth> old joke
19:07:38  <Speeder_> I wonder if anyone ever made a newgrf about STUF
19:08:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i should make a GRF where your goal is to produce 1 item of "Passierschein A38"
19:09:11  <Speeder_> nielsm, my newgrf probably will end with 40+ cargos... I am trying to figure out if there are reasonable ways to diminish that
19:09:20  <Speeder_> but at same time I wanted to reproduce accurately Brazillian exports
19:09:31  <Speeder_> Brazil exports ridiculous amounts of soybeans
19:09:36  <frosch123> Speeder_: there is an ancient grf that renames goods to stuff
19:09:41  <Speeder_> and of "soybean powder as byproduct of making soybean oil"
19:09:53  <frosch123> and with ancient i mean probably as old os ottd
19:11:55  <andythenorth> Speeder_ Tropic Basic just did Beans, even though it's obviously Soybeans IRL :P
19:12:05  <andythenorth> 40+ cargos sounds about right
19:12:23  <andythenorth> the beans in FIRS are Brazilian :P
19:13:08  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: sounds more like a gamescript
19:13:17  <Speeder_> andythenorth, basically when I was seeing FIRS documentation I noticed all brazillian cargos were present, but spread ou many economies
19:13:22  <Speeder_> so I decided to make a new one.
19:13:23  <Speeder_> :P
19:13:37  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you can probably make a fork from bee rewards
19:13:52  <Speeder_> for example cassava is staple food here, my parents grow it in their backyard, and cassava flour is popular addition to our barbecue
19:14:44  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: just randomise the cargos that shall be transported, independent of which cargos are available at the source or accepted at the destination
19:14:57  <frosch123> transport steel from coal mine to oil refinery
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19:29:11  <andythenorth> if you mix industry grfs, that option becomes available :P
19:29:20  <andythenorth> also if I make a mistake in FIRS compile
19:29:57  * andythenorth considers if 'restaurant car' should be a thing
19:30:03  <andythenorth> currently it's an auto-magical sprite
19:34:20  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Yexo opened pull request #8178: Simplify code by removing 2 global variables.
19:38:01  <nielsm> restaurant cars typically carry few passengers though
19:38:27  <andythenorth> and there's no gameplay effect :)
19:38:34  <andythenorth> bit like brake vans though
19:38:40  <andythenorth> or snowploughs :P
19:38:59  <Speeder_> I wish special cars DID had an effect
19:39:07  <Speeder_> like luxury passenger car getting you b