Log for #openttd on 7th November 2020:
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00:25:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #8336: [Game play] Vehicle disasters should always be banner headlines.
00:25:01  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech closed issue #8336: [Game play] Vehicle disasters should always be banner headlines.
00:29:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TinCanTech commented on issue #8336: [Game play] Vehicle disasters should always be banner headlines.
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05:17:39  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bc-lee opened pull request #8337: Fix: Suppress unnecessary warnings introduced in Xcode 12
05:19:38  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bc-lee updated pull request #8337: Fix: Suppress unnecessary warnings introduced in Xcode 12
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08:30:55  <andythenorth> important new feature
08:38:45  <TrueBrain> that is no ship!
08:39:39  <andythenorth> yes it is
08:40:09  <andythenorth> 400 pixel long sprites work just fine
08:40:19  * andythenorth considers trying it
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09:22:58  * andythenorth ships
09:23:08  <andythenorth> what is the correct number?
09:24:43  <LordAro> 7
09:25:24  <andythenorth> red, green, blue
09:25:40  <andythenorth> orange, purple, black, white?
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10:12:14  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i guess missing pages should return 404. i checked mediawiki, and it does the same. i think this is important for bots and search engines
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12:14:26  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think TTD company colours are a little bit too garish :p
12:15:29  * andythenorth considers enforcing a strict ROYGBIV rainbow cycle
12:38:51  <Wolf01> Ok, sorted the last lego parts bulk order, now... tanks? BTW I think I broke tanks, I didn't receive any new job yesterday
12:39:42  <andythenorth> oof
12:39:51  * andythenorth needs to sell a lot of lego
12:40:20  <Wolf01> I need to buy a larger room instead
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12:46:36  <TrueBrain> frosch123: yeah, I can change the status code :)
12:54:23  <TrueBrain> being deployed as we speak to staging :)
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13:03:34  <andythenorth> random ship company colours? o_O
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14:08:33  <TrueBrain> frosch123: what is the intended behaviour .. if the casing of a page is wrong, should it redirect to the right one? Should wikilinks be valid or invalid?
14:09:43  <TrueBrain> I was implementing to redirect to the right-cased URL
14:09:51  <TrueBrain> but the use-case I came up with, what if someone makes a PR to change casing
14:10:00  <TrueBrain> should all wikilinks to it become invalid if not fixed?
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14:11:15  <TrueBrain> we could do that trying to access page "Bla" via url "bla" renders a 404 for view
14:11:22  <TrueBrain> but when you edit the page, it redirects to "Bla" first
14:11:34  <TrueBrain> not sure what the most clear UX is here :)
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14:18:51  <TrueBrain> hmm, maybe better to return on "bla" a page telling: "Bla exists, but bla does not"
14:18:52  <TrueBrain> with a link
14:19:35  <frosch123> i would not redirect, and treat links as invalid. when a pr renames case, they may as well rename something else, so links must be fixed by the pr
14:20:11  <frosch123> viewing "bla" could say "bla does not exist, did you mean Bla"
14:20:25  <frosch123> editing "bla" could say "bla cannot be created, because Bla already exists"
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14:22:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood why wiki pages needed to be case sensitive in the first place
14:23:47  <TrueBrain> frosch123: seems we came to the same conclusion, so let's go with that :)
14:24:04  <TrueBrain> more memory needed (for the lowercase -> real case lookup), w00p :P
14:25:03  <frosch123> i am just fixing the last instances of files that differ in case
14:25:21  <frosch123> so, don't be suprised if there are currently like 8 pngs, which differ in case only
14:25:50  <TrueBrain> I wasn't trying to find existing ones :P :P
14:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i don't get it... you normalize the case on the file system, and any incoming request also gets normalized. zero additional memory needed
14:26:58  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: we already discussed this 2 weeks ago. the filename is the pagetitle, so casing is important
14:27:13  <Eddi|zuHause> (where "normalized" would mean "all upper case" or "all lower case")
14:27:42  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the failure in that logic is that it wouldn't allow us to show the "real" page name :)
14:28:17  <TrueBrain> and "correct casing" is rather language specific, so we cannot reproduce that either :P
14:29:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really understand that argument either. you mean you need a separate "display title" that is somehow separated from the actual page content for some reason?
14:30:24  <frosch123> did you ever use a wiki?
14:30:25  <Eddi|zuHause> but you need that anyway, because of spaces and special letters and stuff?
14:31:06  <TrueBrain> every page has a name .. this is metadata of the page itself. We need to store this somewhere. We use the filename for this. As such, we cannot normalize filenames, as that would influence the pagename
14:31:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm very not convinced
14:32:15  <TrueBrain> not sure what to do with that piece of information :)
14:32:43  <frosch123> i guess i put it into the samu folder
14:32:47  <Eddi|zuHause> you're using technical issues that might describe how we ended up in the current situation, but not why that situation actually has to be like this
14:33:44  <TrueBrain> not sure how to put it in other words ...
14:33:45  <TrueBrain> pages need names
14:33:48  <TrueBrain> names need to be stored
14:33:55  <TrueBrain> that is pretty .. obvious, I hope :)
14:34:30  <frosch123> i think eddi did not understand that the wiki is also accessible by git. so naming all files using uuid is not helpful in the slightest
14:34:48  <TrueBrain> it works if you store the pagename somewhere else
14:34:54  <TrueBrain> which still would require a lookup table :D
14:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> ... why again can't the page name not be all lowercase?
14:35:29  <TrueBrain> have you ever used a wiki? Can you imagine every page name being lower case?
14:35:50  <Eddi|zuHause> can you answer the question, please?
14:35:55  <TrueBrain> I did
14:36:09  <TrueBrain> the requirement is very simple: page names need to be CaSaBlE
14:37:16  <TrueBrain> (mind you, we talk about page names here; not filenames or anything)
14:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause> let's take an example the "page name" appears in multiple obvious places, the link itself, on the page as the first word(s) and in any sub-links (edit, discussion, etc.)
14:38:02  <TrueBrain> perfect example: if that would read "nml:main", people would complain :)
14:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause> so we're purely talking about the displayed title, not any link or other usage?
14:39:01  <TrueBrain> mediawiki calls it page names, yes
14:39:28  <Eddi|zuHause> then other example: here the title is "Main_Page" but is displayed as "Main Page"
14:39:36  <TrueBrain> the page name is "Main Page"
14:39:51  <TrueBrain> mediawiki encodes the page name in the URL with some .. special code
14:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> right, so where is the _ inserted?
14:40:03  <TrueBrain> in mediawiki, the URL != the page name
14:40:14  <frosch123> @kban Eddi|zuHause 40000 let people do their work
14:40:14  *** DorpsGek sets mode: +b *!
14:40:15  *** Eddi|zuHause was kicked by DorpsGek (let people do their work)
14:40:27  <frosch123> sorry, i am tired of discussing things that have been discussed before
14:40:46  <reldred> that read like splitting pubes for the sake of splitting pubes.
14:41:45  <TrueBrain> welcome to #openttd :)
14:42:24  <reldred> Oh don't worry, I'm not new :)
14:42:35  <reldred> I just have a habit of disappearing for months/years
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14:54:55  <TrueBrain> @unban Eddi|zuHause
14:54:55  *** DorpsGek sets mode: -b Eddi|zuHause!
14:55:15  <TrueBrain> we talked in private :P
14:55:30  <frosch123> aw, 12 hours reduced to 12 minutes :p
14:55:48  <TrueBrain> sorry frosch123  :)
14:56:21  <TrueBrain> guess @unban doesn't really work? :)
14:56:33  <TrueBrain> well, my client cannot unban people via IRC methods ..
14:56:39  <frosch123> it worked
14:56:45  <frosch123> it just does not invite at the same time
14:57:19  <frosch123> hmm, no weird
14:57:20  <frosch123> @op
14:57:20  *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o frosch123
14:57:24  *** frosch123 sets mode: -b *!
14:57:29  <frosch123> @deop
14:57:29  *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o frosch123
14:57:46  <TrueBrain> DorpsGek is a bit weird .. it bans another address than it unbans :)
14:57:55  <TrueBrain> an extra layer of protection, I am sure :P
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15:02:51  <TrueBrain> "SigNals" has already a page with very similar casing. Did you mean to edit Signals?
15:02:56  <TrueBrain> suggestions for a better message?
15:02:59  <TrueBrain> I don't like "casing"
15:05:38  <frosch123> Page name "SigNals" conflicts with "Signals". Did you meand to edit "Signals"?
15:06:58  <TrueBrain> perfect
15:07:09  <TrueBrain> well, minus the "d" that slipped in your sentence for no good reason :P
15:07:29  <TrueBrain> I made it a nice t :)
15:08:01  <TrueBrain> Page name "Signals" conflicts with "Signals". Did you meant to edit Signals?  <- the folder has a case issue :P
15:08:06  <TrueBrain> guess I should show the full path :P
15:08:37  <TrueBrain> Page name "en/MaNual/Signals" conflicts with "en/Manual/Signals". Did you meant to edit Signals?
15:08:40  <frosch123> sorry, i threw you off. i think it's "did you mean" without any d or t
15:08:48  <TrueBrain> (the last Signals is a link)
15:09:03  <TrueBrain> hmm .. it works both I think frosch123  :P
15:09:17  <TrueBrain> "do you mean to", or "did you meant to" I think?
15:09:23  <TrueBrain> hmm, no
15:09:24  <TrueBrain> what-ever
15:09:26  <TrueBrain> English sucks :P
15:10:03  <TrueBrain> "Neither is correct, because “do” as an auxiliary takes a bare infinitive (“mean”, i.e., “to mean” less the “to”) not a past participle (“meant”)."
15:10:06  <TrueBrain> internet to the rescue :P
15:10:34  <TrueBrain> (neither in this reference is to "do" or "did")
15:16:41  <TrueBrain> <- that took more code than I would like to admit :D Solved a few other issues while at it too :)
15:20:35  <TrueBrain> it doesn't work on folders, but ... you can't have it all
15:31:58  <TrueBrain> <- to view it in action :)
15:33:03  <longtomjr> What does the train ticks in the FPS window represent?
15:33:17  <longtomjr> Pathfinding for trains?
15:34:14  <TrueBrain> you would expect that being most part of it, but pretty sure it also does other things during a tick
15:36:06  <longtomjr> Trying to figure out why it is eating such a larg part of the sim rate.
15:36:48  <FLHerne> Too many trains :p
15:37:37  <FLHerne> Also, some of the train grfs have ridiculous action2 chains...
15:37:40  <longtomjr> I have played and hosted maps with way more than this amount of trains, and no issues.
15:37:45  <longtomjr> So it can be GRF linked
15:37:56  <longtomjr> Let me see if XUSSR is one of those
15:45:44  <longtomjr> What all falls under action 2?
15:51:51  <FLHerne> Most features that train grfs have, really :p
15:52:17  <longtomjr> Ah ok, so in nml, where should I start poking to see? The callbacks?
15:52:40  <FLHerne> varaction2 chains are basically trees of `if <condition> return <this> otherwise <that>` that eventually return a sprite or some other property value
15:54:31  <FLHerne> Trains tend to have an awful lot of liveries, consist-dependent graphics, railtype-dependent properties, and other magic that turns "what sprite should we draw now" into a non-trivial calculation
15:55:23  <FLHerne> I think there's *some* caching of the results, but I don't think it works all that well with complex grfs
15:55:36  <longtomjr> There is logic here to modify the running cost depending on the build year and age of the locomotive.
15:57:26  <FLHerne> tbc, I'd be surprised if you find some specific smoking gun
15:58:06  <longtomjr> Yep, I don't have any high hopes.
15:58:52  <FLHerne> GRF vehicles just have more and fiddlier callbacks, which individually don't do much, but are cumulatively more expensive than the base vehicles when you have a thousand of them trundling about each tick
15:59:00  <longtomjr> Is there debug tools I can use to check how much time were spent on different areas per tick
15:59:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, there is a statistics in the ? menu
15:59:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but it probably won't be as fine grained as you'd like
15:59:52  <longtomjr> Ah yep, but I want a breakdown of what is causing the train ticks to be slow
16:00:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you can add your own measurements to the code
16:01:01  <longtomjr> Eh, lets start axing the companies 1 by 1 and see if there is something I can gleam from that
16:01:07  <Eddi|zuHause> but you'll likely not find the correct place to decide what to record where
16:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause> other than "yes, there's action 2 evaluation going on", you won't really get to know which vehicles are affected the most
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16:21:35  <TrueBrain> frosch123: finally finished "renaming" of pages .. that was .. tricky :P
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16:22:10  <TrueBrain> now to deploy it to staging .. very curious if people can find bugs in it :P
16:22:55  <TrueBrain> owh, btw, didn't know if I mentioned it: you cannot name a Page like "" (the ".." is the issue)
16:22:58  <TrueBrain> I just banned that
16:23:02  <TrueBrain> (something something path-walking)
16:23:22  <TrueBrain> it doesn't check if it is "/../", as there are too many ways around that :P
16:24:21  <TrueBrain> hmm .. you can overwrite other pages with "renaming" :D
16:24:22  <TrueBrain> oops
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16:27:35  <TrueBrain> right, seems the soap of 4 years has finally come to an end ..
16:27:44  <TrueBrain> what will daily shows talk about now? :P
16:29:56  <TrueBrain> right ... TODO-list for truewiki: "git commit + push" and "uploading of files" (and I guess renaming of files .. lol .. that is pretty sure now broken too :D)
16:48:20  <andythenorth> oh they called it
16:53:38  <frosch123> TrueBrain: i would ban leading "."
16:53:51  <frosch123> same as leading and trailing whitespace :)
16:55:49  <TrueBrain> Good points
16:55:59  <TrueBrain> (See what I did there?)
16:56:01  <andythenorth> frosch123 did you see? :P
16:56:29  <frosch123> did you miss V? :p
16:56:50  <frosch123> the cabeese gives it away though
16:57:57  <frosch123> i like random graphics, less micro management
16:58:12  <frosch123> except for those who want uniform coloured trains :p
16:59:00  <frosch123> TrueBrain: maybe there is a cool python function to detect non-printable chars
16:59:17  <frosch123> so we no longer get pagenames with RTL characters
17:03:24  <andythenorth> I have made it all configurable
17:04:02  <andythenorth> grf parameters to set 4 random colours (or all same), and a depot-flip thing if you want to toggle random/uniform
17:11:23  <andythenorth> oof
17:11:35  * andythenorth still wishes ctrl-click incremented a counter byte
17:12:53  <andythenorth> also I had a silly idea
17:14:06  <Eddi|zuHause> you think you do, but you don't
17:16:10  <andythenorth> instead of a (proposed) 3rd company colour, let player specify a set of company colours, which the vehicle will be given a random result from
17:16:16  <andythenorth> this would work with the groups livery UI
17:16:19  <andythenorth> and other cases
17:18:14  <andythenorth> newgrf would apply the colour with palette_2cc(company_colour1, company_colour2)
17:18:31  <andythenorth> so no magic pixels
17:18:36  <Eddi|zuHause> ... is a feature that maybe 3 people will use
17:18:42  <andythenorth> me
17:18:44  <andythenorth> me
17:18:45  <andythenorth> and me
17:18:53  <andythenorth> I would use it in Hog, Horse and Sam
17:18:58  <andythenorth> is that 3?
17:19:06  <Eddi|zuHause> probably
17:19:34  <andythenorth> would more or fewer people use it than use railtype curve speed bonus?
17:23:13  <TrueBrain> frosch123: Page 'en/I enjoyed staying -- באמת!‏ -- at his house' contains UTF-8 control characters, which is not allowed.
17:23:24  <TrueBrain> I could also remove them, but honestly .. let the user fix his crappy input :P
17:23:58  <TrueBrain> it links to
17:27:14  <andythenorth> how many random wagon colours should I provide?  Currently have 4
17:27:30  <frosch123> TrueBrain: huh? does that page exist, or is it your test page?
17:27:41  <TrueBrain> when I try to rename :)
17:28:06  <TrueBrain> (in my local version)
17:28:17  <TrueBrain> should prevent any page from being created with non-printable chars :)
17:28:18  <frosch123> ah, got it, looks nice :)
17:29:54  <TrueBrain> <- for some reason, I doubt we are going to miss these kind of yells ..
17:30:19  <frosch123> TrueBrain: :)
17:30:26  <frosch123> you can create them yourself
17:30:54  <TrueBrain> haha
17:35:25  <TrueBrain> lol, browser URLs strip CCs :)
17:43:22  <FLHerne> LordAro: Did you pass any extra flags to `black`, or just do it?
17:44:27  <FLHerne> LordAro: I've just been re-poking the action0properties tables
17:47:53  <LordAro> FLHerne: just 120 line length
17:52:22  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master
17:52:22  <DorpsGek_III>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
17:57:51  <FLHerne> LordAro: Do look sensible?
17:58:05  <FLHerne> Should be just action0properties that's different
17:58:08  * FLHerne checks that...
18:03:39  <FLHerne> Pretty much
18:03:58  <FLHerne> I seem to have accidentally formatted, but eh
18:10:44  <LordAro> seems reasonable
18:12:24  <FLHerne> We really do need to relegate all this 0xblah stuff to some separate data table eventually
18:12:38  <FLHerne> So, how to merge it? :p
18:12:59  <FLHerne> I can try to push to your PR, but I haven't done that on GH before
18:14:20  <LordAro> pushing to my branch is probably easier :p
18:14:40  <glx> yeah just push to the branch
18:16:34  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
18:16:53  <FLHerne> Ok, I think that worked
18:19:04  <TrueBrain> frosch123: in my local dev version, you can now also create a new language by just creating a page in a new language .. guess that will be fine for now :)
18:19:32  <TrueBrain> hmm, no, it doesn't work :D
18:19:34  <TrueBrain> okay, fine :)
18:19:38  <TrueBrain> I wanted it via PR anyway :P
18:20:05  <TrueBrain> so nvm :)
18:20:20  <frosch123> what languages do you allow?
18:20:42  <frosch123> is "tb" a valid language?
18:22:49  <TrueBrain> I just told you to nevermind :P
18:23:13  <TrueBrain> new languages via PR, there, done, solved the issue :D
18:23:20  <TrueBrain> means I don't have to think if tb is a real language or not :P
18:29:45  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne updated pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
18:29:54  <FLHerne> (missed a flake8 error)
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18:38:06  <frosch123> TrueBrain: added all pages from user namespace, and separated those with useful non-user content (zuu's, nielsm's dev drafts).
18:38:24  <frosch123> despite more pages, now down to 1k8 errors :)
18:38:36  <TrueBrain> \o/ \o/
18:38:37  <TrueBrain> SO CLOSE
18:39:00  <TrueBrain> I am currently fixing all the bugs I am finding with renaming and saving etc .. and making the user experience a bit better
18:39:03  <TrueBrain> almost there :D
18:39:11  <TrueBrain> but now it is re-indexing because someone pushed something to github :P :P :P
18:39:24  <frosch123> :p
18:40:08  <TrueBrain> you can now (in my dev-version) go to a folder and when logged in press: Create Page
18:40:14  <TrueBrain> and that does what you expect :D
18:40:53  <frosch123> yay, ai content creators are the future
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18:45:17  <TrueBrain> If you want to create a main page for this folder, create a page called "Main Page" in the folder. "Main Page" cannot be translated, and is always written in English, no matter the language you are in.
18:45:21  <TrueBrain> frosch123: suggestions for a better sentence?
18:45:47  <frosch123> where is it shown?
18:46:55  <TrueBrain> when you create a page like: "en/Bla/"
18:46:58  <frosch123> is a separate "Create Main Page" button an option?
18:47:06  <TrueBrain> I rather avoid that
18:47:10  <TrueBrain> as people can rename it too
18:47:18  <TrueBrain> too many ways to get there, basically
18:47:35  <frosch123> ah, creating a page with trailing slash?
18:47:45  <TrueBrain> yes
18:47:55  <TrueBrain> I wanted to let the user know he should add Main Page, if that was the intention
18:48:03  <TrueBrain> or he might have forgotten to fill in pagename, of course
18:49:02  <frosch123> your sentence is fine :)
18:50:12  <TrueBrain> I used a lot of words double .. might be too spoonfeeding :P
18:50:16  <TrueBrain> well, we can change it when-ever ofc
18:54:14  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne approved pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
18:54:29  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne merged pull request #103: Blacken & Flake8 nml
18:55:00  <FLHerne> LordAro: Thanks for doing that
18:55:12  <FLHerne> I won't miss the " = default" argument style :p
18:56:51  <TrueBrain> wait till you add typing ... IT IS BACCCCKKKK
18:56:56  <TrueBrain> frosch123:
18:57:02  <TrueBrain> check out the Create Page button after login :D
18:57:15  * FLHerne is seriously considering adding typing
18:57:36  <TrueBrain> doing it after-the-fact is really difficult, honestly
18:59:55  <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/team] frosch123 commented on issue #78: [ru_RU] Translator access request
19:00:05  <TrueBrain> hmm .. should "delete page" also be a thing, I wonder?
19:00:13  <TrueBrain> via PRs! Okay :P
19:00:36  <TrueBrain> next on my list ... uploading of files, renaming of files, etc .. that will be fun :D
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19:01:46  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: Yeah, but my other project is adding typing support to my favourite IDE
19:01:50  <frosch123> TrueBrain: the "preview" now adds the "Main Page"?
19:01:55  <FLHerne> So I can kill two birds with one stone :p
19:01:56  <frosch123> i did not see your message before
19:02:40  <frosch123> oh, no, "preview" discard whatever i enter as page name
19:02:51  <TrueBrain> frosch123: funny, that Preview does that :D
19:03:01  <TrueBrain> yeah, it doesn't remember the page name currently
19:03:06  <TrueBrain> I will add it to my todo!
19:04:57  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: well, I tried adding typing in this wiki ... but I think it is like 50% there :P
19:05:10  <TrueBrain> it does help in a lot of cases, especially for instances .. having the class resolved, really makes editing easier
19:05:19  <TrueBrain> but brr ... it is so difficult with the "typing" library
19:05:33  <TrueBrain> I am happy 3.9 I believe allows for # type: list[int, int]
19:05:37  <TrueBrain> (instead of List[int, int]
19:05:42  <TrueBrain> but that Optional still needs importing
19:05:49  <TrueBrain> ... it makes it so much more difficult than needed
19:06:45  <TrueBrain> frosch123: okay, "preview" just acts weird in many cases :P
19:20:00  <TrueBrain> ugh, when I am done with TrueWiki for OpenTTD, I will have a lot of work splitting off OpenTTD-specific stuff from the more generic .. but that would increase the readability of the code by a lot :P
19:22:07  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: btw, as it has to be asked: what -is- your favorite IDE? :P
19:22:23  <TrueBrain> (and no, Eddi|zuHause , we are not starting an editor-war :P)
19:22:46  <Eddi|zuHause> why would i start an editor war?
19:23:01  <TrueBrain> why wouldn't you? :D
19:23:34  <Eddi|zuHause> i use just <whatever> editor that happens to be on the system i'm working on
19:23:47  <Eddi|zuHause> none of them is particularly amazing
19:23:54  <TrueBrain> I had a coworker that removed all but "joe" from systems .. that was fun :P
19:24:13  <TrueBrain> always surprise me how many CLI editors exist
19:24:25  <TrueBrain> WP even had an update recently :)
19:24:47  <TrueBrain> (is WP CLI? I guess ... DOS is CLI-ish)
19:25:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i only know my least favourite is notepad
19:25:31  <TrueBrain> but it is Open Source! :P
19:25:35  <TrueBrain> and I really do agree :D
19:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i have two categories of editors: 1) editors that have no features, and 2) editors that are too complex to configure properly in the little time i'm spending with them
19:27:34  <TrueBrain> it amazes me what people can do with vim .. I have to google how to copy/paste properly :P
19:27:47  <TrueBrain> frosch123: deployed fixes for preview; should be 1000x better now :D
19:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i can only copy-paste in gvim, where i can use the mouse
19:30:27  <TrueBrain> some vims have the mouse in a different mode .. it completely confuses me
19:30:32  <TrueBrain> right-click doesn't copy ..
19:30:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i envy people that spend so much time in one single editor that they know all the ins-and-outs
19:30:52  <TrueBrain> what also annoys the fuck out of me .. CTRL+K doesn't work in VSCode with Nano in WSL2 ..
19:31:17  <TrueBrain> holy crap, uploading files in mediawiki is .... impressively complex
19:31:23  <TrueBrain> how does anyone manage to upload anything without going insane
19:32:12  <frosch123> TrueBrain: my strategy is: write the page first and link the image. then click on the dead link to get to the upload form
19:33:08  <frosch123> TrueBrain: you use the terminal in vscode to start a textmode editor?
19:33:17  <TrueBrain> frosch123: "git commit", yes :)
19:33:35  <TrueBrain> I cannot get used to GUIs for git
19:33:37  <TrueBrain> they just confuse me
19:33:39  <frosch123> that's close to the guy with the js-ssh to start vim in a browser
19:34:01  <TrueBrain> but I am a "git add -p" guy
19:34:14  <TrueBrain> it does allow me to do what others consider magic with git
19:34:27  <TrueBrain> like ... I write 10 changes at once, and "git add -p" them into 10 commits
19:34:41  <TrueBrain> that seems to confuse most co-workers sufficient for them to walk away
19:41:12  <LordAro> can confirm
19:41:35  <frosch123> TrueBrain: would be nice if the preview would also display the pagename checks. then i do not have to rely on my browser's back button to save my page content :)
19:41:55  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hmm ... I would have to rework the error system for that
19:41:59  <TrueBrain> for v1.1 :)
19:42:32  <TrueBrain> I have to reclassify "errors" as "problems" anyway, that come from the render
19:42:42  <TrueBrain> as a wrong page name is an error, you cannot continue without fixing
19:42:48  <TrueBrain> you can, however, continue with a broken wikilink :P
19:43:41  <TrueBrain> TrueWiki's templates also need love .. lot of copy/paste now ... we will get there :)
19:51:03  <TrueBrain> well, in general I now know a lot more what we need to make it work ... as that goes with any first version :D
19:51:08  <TrueBrain> it begs for a second version that overshoots
19:51:12  <TrueBrain> to make a third that is spot-on :P
19:51:54  <FLHerne> TrueBrain: kdevelop
19:52:03  <TrueBrain> FLHerne: that still exists? (I am honestly surprised)
19:52:12  <TrueBrain> I used that for years, but .. KDE .. wasn't really going anywhere :P
19:52:31  <FLHerne> In the last few years KDE has been going quite a bit of where :-)
19:57:03  <TrueBrain> cool :)
19:57:14  <TrueBrain> compile-times still in the days? :D
19:57:21  <TrueBrain> (I used it on Gentoo, back in .. 2004? :P)
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20:04:09  <FLHerne> Not on my new machine :D
20:04:30  <FLHerne> On my old laptop compiling qt5 was a leave-it-and-check-in-the-morning job,
20:11:04  <TrueBrain> ghehe :)
20:11:11  <TrueBrain> one of the best things I bought: a 8700K
20:11:16  <TrueBrain> never ever regretted the price it had back then
20:11:23  <TrueBrain> as fucking hell it can compile shit quick
20:11:23  <frosch123> TrueBrain: there are two types of ide, those which use libclang to index stuff, and those who do not have an indexer
20:11:29  <TrueBrain> guess these days an AMD is faster
20:11:33  <frosch123> kdevelop now belongs to the former group
20:12:34  <frosch123> but well, i am still a kate fanboy. which is the most weird thing to kdevelop people :)
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20:14:21  <TrueBrain> lol
20:14:35  <TrueBrain> glx: nice deep-dive you took in old OpenDUNE stuff :D
20:14:57  <glx> yeah was fun
20:15:50  <FLHerne> frosch123: KDevelop used to have an entirely in-house indexer
20:16:12  <FLHerne> But updating it to C++11 would have been hell, so now it's libclang :p
20:17:09  <FLHerne> OTOH, the Python indexing is still our own thing besides using CPython's source -> AST parser
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20:18:27  <TrueBrain> hmm .. if you upload a new file and press "preview" ... yeah, that is not going to work
20:18:31  <TrueBrain> I have nowhere to leave a "preview" image
20:18:39  <TrueBrain> or I have to sent it back as "data:"
20:19:14  <TrueBrain> but no, not for v1
20:20:10  <TrueBrain> "Preview won't work for new uploads."
20:20:12  <TrueBrain> SOLVED :D
20:21:34  <frosch123> FLHerne: are you involved with kdevelop? i am asking because i already know a kate developer in person.
20:22:14  <TrueBrain> you collecting them? :D
20:22:35  <frosch123> i did not harm anyone
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20:27:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: do we want to limit what you can upload? Only images?
20:30:09  <frosch123> only .png, .gif and .jpeg
20:30:24  <frosch123> the conversion lowercases the extension, and renames jpg to jpeg
20:30:48  <TrueBrain> I did not get to "create" yet .. only to "edit".. ugh, normalizing ... :P
20:30:49  <frosch123> if you allow anything, people will use it as bananas, and you have to sort out all the complains
20:30:55  <frosch123> so, strong no :)
20:31:07  <TrueBrain> like .scn files :P
20:31:16  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: MOAR UPDATES
20:31:57  <andythenorth> you watching BANANAS?
20:33:09  <TrueBrain> IRC is :)
20:33:13  <TrueBrain> Uploaded file "api.php" is not a valid image. Only PNG and JPEG is supported.
20:33:21  <TrueBrain> that sounds like a valid error
20:34:44  <TrueBrain> funny, content-type browsers send is not based on the content
20:39:34  <TrueBrain> Uploaded file "Manufacturer offer - Copy - Copy.jpg" is not a valid JPEG image.
20:39:39  <TrueBrain> (IT IS A PNG! :P)
20:42:17  <TrueBrain> okay, editing an existing image works .. now a new upload .. hmm
20:42:25  <FLHerne> frosch123: Yeah, I've done quite a bit of hacking on kdev-python
20:42:41  <FLHerne> (which one? :p)
20:45:44  <Wolf01>
20:48:04  <frosch123> Wolf01: is that the new corona-safe tram?
20:49:24  * andythenorth ships BAD FEATURE
20:50:41  <andythenorth> hmm can we have an action 14 UI control including company colours?
20:51:00  * andythenorth thinks newgrfs should provide their own company colour rules :P
20:51:21  <andythenorth> although the OpenTTD colours-by-vehicle is a remarkable piece of design
20:54:12  * andythenorth wonders about colours per type of train
20:55:13  <TrueBrain> "Please upload a file when creating a new File. "
20:55:14  <TrueBrain> I love errors
20:55:34  <andythenorth> I've got about 50 types of train
20:55:46  <andythenorth> so 100 menu items
20:55:52  <andythenorth> 1cc / 2cc for eavh
20:55:55  <andythenorth> each *
21:01:40  <andythenorth> oof
21:01:47  <andythenorth> I get the feeling I'm all alone in the world
21:01:58  <andythenorth> the only person who really cares about all these colour choices
21:03:48  <TrueBrain> okay .... I think file upload works \o/
21:04:02  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you currently have to create a page with the right filename + extension, and attach the file to it
21:04:08  <TrueBrain> for a v1.1 we could look in automating that
21:04:11  <TrueBrain> for now .. this works
21:04:16  <TrueBrain> and in your workflow, it would work just fine :)
21:04:51  <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> Uploaded file "Manufacturer offer - Copy - Copy.jpg" is not a valid JPEG image. <-- i hate how image sites started to add random extensions. imagesite/xyz.jpg and imagesite/xyz.png link to the same file
21:05:42  <FLHerne> That's not entirely new :p
21:05:45  <Xaroth> Extensions are overrated
21:05:54  <TrueBrain> I love how nothing cares about the extension OR the content-type :P
21:05:54  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's about 5 years ago or so
21:06:19  * FLHerne remembers renaming files on MacOS system7 to fool something into opening them
21:06:23  <TrueBrain> it is why I have these beauties:
21:06:23  <TrueBrain> if not data.startswith(b"\x89\x50\x4e\x47\x0d\x0a\x1a\x0a"):
21:06:28  <TrueBrain> if not data.startswith(b"\xff\xd8") or not data.endswith(b"\xff\xd9"):
21:07:14  <TrueBrain> <- okay, that is a lot less code than I expected ... mostly hooking in the callback .. lol
21:07:37  <TrueBrain> file upload itself is 80 lines of code
21:07:38  <TrueBrain> lol
21:08:37  <TrueBrain> okay ... that cleans up my TODO list with only "git commit + push", and wikilink titles .. :D
21:08:59  <TrueBrain> seems frosch123 and I will be finishing roughly at the same time :P
21:10:18  <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing that's worse than random image file extensions is calling any short, looping video a "gif"
21:14:06  <TrueBrain> <- I UPLOADED A FILE!
21:14:09  <TrueBrain> it works \o/
21:14:22  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you can do funny things .. for example, if you rename that Page to a non-File, the upload will be removed
21:14:32  <TrueBrain> I checked all corner-cases I could think of, basically :P
21:15:09  <Eddi|zuHause> that means you missed some :)
21:15:17  <TrueBrain> yup
21:15:24  <TrueBrain> and for that we will do testing next week :P
21:15:32  <TrueBrain> and still miss some
21:16:17  <frosch123> TrueBrain: currently there is no js at all, right?
21:16:31  <TrueBrain> I believe I avoided it, yes
21:16:38  <TrueBrain> why?
21:16:53  <frosch123> when i do the js, will andy do the css?
21:17:00  <TrueBrain> sounds like a plan
21:17:21  <TrueBrain> well, CSS is no real prio honestly .. at least, it is on the same level of ugly as the rest of sites :P
21:17:32  <frosch123> but i guess that upload-js thingie is not needed here
21:17:36  <TrueBrain> no
21:17:36  <frosch123> people shall upload small files :)
21:17:38  <TrueBrain> no tusd :)
21:17:53  <TrueBrain> if your connection is not stable enough to upload a file via HTTP Forms, you shouldn't be uploading it
21:18:17  <TrueBrain> but the preview should be made into JS :)
21:18:29  <frosch123> yes, preview, and sortable tables
21:18:52  <TrueBrain> so we get "edit.js" and "view.js" :)
21:18:53  <TrueBrain> sure
21:18:57  <TrueBrain> but first, v1 :)
21:19:20  <TrueBrain> <- at the bottom, " NewGRF and NewGRF "
21:19:21  <TrueBrain> :D
21:20:15  <TrueBrain> <- I still cannot believe I got all the <pre> blocks to work
21:20:17  <TrueBrain> what a mess that is ..
21:21:36  <TrueBrain> frosch123: wow .. all .png files are PNGs, and all .jpeg files are JPEGs?
21:21:40  <TrueBrain> did you check for that or something?
21:21:51  <TrueBrain> I expected people messing that up :P
21:21:59  <frosch123> i think mediawiki checks that
21:22:06  <TrueBrain> I am impressed ...
21:22:12  <TrueBrain> we found something mediawiki does right \o/
21:22:21  <TrueBrain> you btw cannot change the extension of uploads
21:22:25  <TrueBrain> once a jpeg, always a jpeg
21:22:27  <frosch123> we also have 45 gif
21:23:29  <TrueBrain> so if an image is a .png, and you upload a jpeg, it tells you: wrong extension
21:23:37  <TrueBrain> if you change the extension, it tells you: cannot change extension
21:23:37  <TrueBrain> :D
21:23:45  <TrueBrain> you can, how-ever, upload 2 files: bla.png and bla.jpeg
21:24:01  <TrueBrain> possibly we want to avoid that too ..
21:24:24  <frosch123> i don't think the conversion checks for that
21:24:44  <TrueBrain> when I forget mediawiki for a bit, you would think you can do: [[Image:Bla]]
21:24:51  <TrueBrain> and it checks if there is a Bla.png or Bla.jpeg, basically
21:24:59  <TrueBrain> as extension really is not relevant
21:25:38  <frosch123> then we have to change to foobar.mediawiki instead of foobar.png.mediawiki
21:25:56  <TrueBrain> yup
21:26:07  <TrueBrain> Water supply and Water tower are "double" without extension
21:26:12  <andythenorth> someone volunteered me? :P
21:26:13  <andythenorth> oof
21:26:39  <TrueBrain> 'File/en/Archive/Old 32bpp/Water supply.gif'
21:26:39  <TrueBrain> 'File/en/Archive/Old 32bpp/Water supply.png'
21:27:02  <TrueBrain> 'File/en/Manual/Base Set/Industries/Water tower.gif'
21:27:04  <TrueBrain> 'File/en/Manual/Base Set/Industries/Water tower.png'
21:27:05  <TrueBrain> funny :)
21:27:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: not sure if we should do that
21:27:11  <TrueBrain> but we could, honestly
21:27:28  <frosch123> there used to be Coal mine.png, CoalMine.png, Coal mine.PNG and CoalMine.PNG, i renamed them :)
21:27:32  <TrueBrain> maybe not for v1 :)
21:27:45  <TrueBrain> maybe something to check for v1.1 :)
21:30:41  <TrueBrain> yeah, frosch123 , lets keep it [[Image:Bla.png]] for now; lets review removing of extension after we shut down the old server :D
21:31:29  <TrueBrain> frosch123: the 1k remaining errors, anything special between there? Or just templates being annoying?
21:32:15  <frosch123> it looks like i fixed all the bugs in my script. now it's individual templates that are too magical
21:32:54  <frosch123> i slowed down from 1k errors per fix, to 100 errors per fix, to now 20 errors per fix :p
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21:33:40  <TrueBrain> I know how that feels :)
21:33:49  <TrueBrain> so we fix those 1k after migration, basically?
21:35:44  <frosch123> no, i will fix them in the next days
21:36:34  <frosch123> though i think i have one bug for you to fix :)
21:36:50  <TrueBrain> \o/
21:37:17  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: there is a limit on the amount of new versions you can push a day, you know that right?
21:37:22  <TrueBrain> :P :P I am just kidding :D
21:37:45  <frosch123> <- it complains bout ":en/Manual/Console", which i believe comes from "Template:de/Übersetzung", which does {{NAMESPACE}}:{{{1}}}
21:37:59  <frosch123> can you accept leading ":" for pages?
21:38:08  <andythenorth> I'll get my coat
21:38:19  <TrueBrain> hmm, no, {{NAMESPACE}} should return Page, I think ..
21:39:42  <TrueBrain> hmm .. we did say that {{Page:en/Bla}} was the notation, right?
21:39:45  <TrueBrain> I forgot :D
21:39:55  <frosch123> yes
21:39:56  <TrueBrain> owh, but this is a WikiLink
21:40:00  <andythenorth> FLHerne think this would work for Hog truck bodies / trailers? o_O
21:40:04  <TrueBrain> hmm ... okay, I get why you suggest :en
21:41:09  <TrueBrain> frosch123: hmm ... tricky :)
21:41:19  <TrueBrain> pretty sure we can remove all usages of NAMESPACE
21:41:26  <TrueBrain> as ... we don't have namespaces really :P
21:41:41  <frosch123> also fine, i think that would be 200 of the 1k issues :p
21:41:42  <TrueBrain> the only thing that would fail, is if a template includes it
21:42:07  <TrueBrain> and that is why I am somewhat in doubt about it ..
21:42:08  <TrueBrain> hmm ..
21:42:41  <frosch123> the usecase here is weird anyway. it used the NAMESPACE of the source page to link to the {{{1}}} target page
21:43:10  <frosch123> translations are usually in the same namespace, sure. but that can also be included in the parameter then
21:43:33  <frosch123> i'll remove the NAMESPACE locally, and see what that changes :)
21:43:47  <TrueBrain> it is because I changed it already on the wiki
21:43:55  <TrueBrain> it used to be localurl + namespace + 1
21:43:59  <TrueBrain> but it is still wrong, in that case :)
21:44:09  <TrueBrain> so you are right, it makes no sense
21:44:42  <TrueBrain> so I think you can safely replace that with just {{{1}}} for all those templates
21:45:03  <TrueBrain> the caller should add the right namespace in 1, if needed
21:45:16  <FLHerne> andythenorth: Yes
21:45:48  <TrueBrain> ([[:{{NAMESPACE}} talk:{{{1}}}|discusión]]) <- that is also a nice one frosch123  .. lol
21:46:28  * andythenorth wondering if it can be applied to ships
21:46:50  <andythenorth>
21:47:07  <andythenorth> funnel colours? :P
21:47:10  <andythenorth> crane colours? :P
21:47:12  <frosch123> TrueBrain: yeah, no idea what to do with talkpage links :)
21:47:21  <TrueBrain> remove them, honestly
21:47:23  <TrueBrain> it has no more value
21:47:28  <andythenorth> random hull colours?
21:48:14  <TrueBrain> frosch123: so all the "namespace" variables are used in the same way .. if we can remove namespace variable completely, that would make me a bit happy :)
21:48:34  <TrueBrain> if name == "namespace":
21:48:34  <TrueBrain>         parser_function.string = ""
21:48:36  <TrueBrain> is the current code
21:48:40  <TrueBrain> pretty sure I forgot to add a TODO :P
21:49:05  <frosch123> i am running the check currently, let's see how much reduction
21:49:13  <TrueBrain> pam pam pammmmmm
21:49:15  <frosch123> but going by your code, there won't be new issues .p
21:49:43  <TrueBrain> it can only reduce the amount; but the type of error can change :)
21:50:18  <frosch123> if NAMESPACE always returns "", it does not work in any case :)
21:50:27  <TrueBrain> exactly :)
21:51:28  <TrueBrain> owh, I see why this doesn't complain about "unknown namespace"
21:51:35  <TrueBrain> my code has a bug there :P
21:51:40  <TrueBrain> well, I have to rework that part anyway, so meh :)
21:52:12  <TrueBrain> owh, and we have 0 [[Media: links, nice
21:52:16  <frosch123> i assumed you only support ":File" and ":Category"
21:52:45  <TrueBrain> and :Folder, but that is not really relevant :)
21:52:46  <frosch123> what, i added all the code to deal with Media: for nothing, or did i break it?
21:53:02  <TrueBrain> owh, and :Template: too
21:53:23  <frosch123> that's unneccessary, then you can also support :Page
21:54:05  <TrueBrain> well, :Template is indeed useless .. as Template does the same
21:54:30  <TrueBrain> but we have a lot of "[[:Template:" atm
21:55:31  <TrueBrain> it maps to the exact same function as [[Template
21:55:36  <TrueBrain> so maybe we should remove the : in that case
21:56:09  <TrueBrain> 48 hits .. yeah, let's do that
21:56:13  <TrueBrain> if you don't mind, that is :)
21:56:22  <frosch123> it's easier to write templates that link to pages by parameter, if you always accept and strip a leading colon
21:56:42  <TrueBrain> how do you mean, sorry?
21:57:42  <frosch123> {{Mytemplate|File:myfile}}  and {{MyTemplate|mypage}}  with [[:{{{1}}}]]
21:57:56  <TrueBrain> ah, hmm
21:57:59  <TrueBrain> interesting
21:58:24  <frosch123> the translation templates probably use this
21:58:53  <TrueBrain> [[{{url}}|{{language}}]]
21:59:24  <TrueBrain> not sure why it works with files, honestly :P
21:59:57  <frosch123> so, removing all {{NAMESPACE}}: reduces from 1829 to 1445
22:00:09  <TrueBrain> so that settles it :P
22:00:28  <TrueBrain> and I will check into supporting : for Page
22:00:31  <TrueBrain> it is not trivial :P
22:01:22  <TrueBrain> but for cleaness, I am still in favour of replacing the current [[:Template: with [[Template: :)
22:01:56  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, language bar works because I have a shitty hack that maps Category/ to :Category:
22:02:28  <TrueBrain> internally it is a bit of a mixed bag between Category/ and :Category: / Category:
22:02:35  <TrueBrain> one of the things I want to rewrite :D
22:02:53  <frosch123> haha, i think i had a very similar evolution in the conversion scripts :p
22:03:11  <TrueBrain> it registers dynamic, that at least is something :P
22:03:19  <TrueBrain> but okay, that all for v1.1
22:04:30  <TrueBrain> so basically we dropped "custom" namespaces in favour of folders
22:04:33  <TrueBrain> which is nice
22:04:43  <TrueBrain> but mediawiki abuses namespaces to hugely ..
22:06:40  <TrueBrain> anyway, enough for one day; nice work and progress frosch123 :D
22:06:49  <TrueBrain> tomorrow I will see if I can add git commit + push
22:07:03  <TrueBrain> but I cannot bring that to staging, as ... I have no push rights in your repo, ofc :P
22:07:09  <TrueBrain> will have to see what I do about that :D
22:07:22  <TrueBrain> possibly an option to disable push or what-ever :)
22:07:51  <TrueBrain> well, night for now
22:08:15  <frosch123> night
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22:42:37  <andythenorth> odd ship
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