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Log for #openttd on 30th December 2020:
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01:18:43  <qwebirc80285> hi
01:18:59  <qwebirc80285> im trying to add a new video driver based on "dedicated"
01:19:21  <qwebirc80285> but the memory pointed to _screen.dst_ptr is never updated
01:19:49  <qwebirc80285> i get "MakeDirty" rectangles that are always the full screen size
01:20:03  <qwebirc80285> any hints or tips to get something rendering?
01:22:34  <FLHerne> qwebirc80285: I think nearly everyone active here is in a European timezone (it's 1am for me)
01:23:25  <FLHerne> Either leave your IRC client open and await a reply, or ask again some other time, or on github ;-)
01:23:46  <FLHerne> michi_cc: ^ ping for video-driver question
01:24:09  * FLHerne sleeps
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01:42:04  <qwebirc80285> i also just confirmed this behavior happens in the "dedicated" driver too
01:42:51  <qwebirc80285> using github master (pulled today)
01:58:59  <snail_UES_> if you also live in the US, there’s very few of us as FLHerne said
01:59:15  <snail_UES_> you’ll probably have a better chance if you reconnect tomorrow morning
02:15:24  <Eddi|zuHause> qwebirc80285: may very well be that the "dedicated" driver takes some shortcuts because all the screen updates are discarded anyway
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02:21:54  <qwebirc80285> im gonna try with the 1.7.1 version since its the same as the one used in the ubuntu distro
02:22:11  <qwebirc80285> i am not sure how important matching content packs with version is
02:22:15  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think anyone made any changes to that in like a decade
02:22:40  <qwebirc80285> but that should guarantee that i have a matching content pack to eliminate that as a possible issue
02:22:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the dedicated driver, not the content pack
02:22:59  <qwebirc80285> fwiw, i also looked through the SDL/Allegro drivers
02:23:14  <qwebirc80285> and could not find anything significantly different that would make the display work
02:23:17  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly are you trying to do?
02:23:41  <qwebirc80285> im looking into adding a video driver to support a handheld device
02:23:50  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the dedicated driver is for servers that do not display anything
02:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause> you're probably best off trying to look for an SDL library port for your device
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02:26:10  <qwebirc80285> the SDL version fails because the device resolution is smaller than 640x480
02:26:31  <qwebirc80285> so i gotta send the frame buffer through the hardware blitter to scale it
02:26:38  <qwebirc80285> hence the custom video driver
02:26:39  <Eddi|zuHause> that's going to be tricky then, many windows will not fit
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02:28:14  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably hack out the check for 640x480, but the game might not be playable
02:28:29  <Eddi|zuHause> as in, you'll have trouble getting through the main menu
02:28:46  <Eddi|zuHause> as some buttons might be off-screen
02:31:46  <qwebirc80285> well, i thought this would be a quick test to find out if was playable
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03:17:54  <qwebirc80285> k compiled 1.7.1 with my custom video driver and it works without issue
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07:29:59  <andythenorth> moin
07:30:08  <andythenorth> is it lunch?
08:06:26  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth opened pull request #8466: Fix: GetCurveSpeedLimit needs railtype from current tile https://git.io/JLH4j
08:07:57  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] andythenorth commented on pull request #8466: Fix: GetCurveSpeedLimit needs railtype from current tile https://git.io/JLHBJ
09:07:50  <andythenorth> hmm Euro Horse
09:07:53  <andythenorth> 'Pferd'?
09:07:57  <andythenorth> 'Cheval'?
09:08:02  <andythenorth> oof
09:14:03  <andythenorth> hmm GS idea
09:14:09  <andythenorth> unify this lot, using trains :P https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia#/media/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648.svg
09:37:23  <andythenorth> also Netherlands GS idea!
09:37:37  <andythenorth> deliver spices to HQ of Dutch East India Company
09:37:51  <andythenorth> for each goal met, GS will reclaim some sea and build a dyke round it
09:38:10  <andythenorth> until the King of France invades, then the GS floods 50% of the land again
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09:54:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] condac opened issue #8467: Maglev train stuck in deadlock on title screen https://git.io/JLHEx
10:17:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on issue #8467: Maglev train stuck in deadlock on title screen https://git.io/JLHEx
10:17:11  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed issue #8467: Maglev train stuck in deadlock on title screen https://git.io/JLHEx
10:17:24  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z updated pull request #7000: Some NewGRF variables concerning railtypes https://git.io/fhI7h
10:17:56  <LordAro> omg, andy pull request
10:18:03  <andythenorth> annual
10:19:18  <LordAro> looks fine, but needs someone who actually knows newgrf to review :)
10:21:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that's gonna need some careful rules lawyering of the specs
10:23:09  <Eddi|zuHause> "This property sets the multiplier to the curve speed advantage which all trains running on this track type get." i admit, it reads pretty clear
10:30:57  <Timberwolf> "something wrong in title screen game" is a Transport Tycoon tradition, we should keep it up :p
10:31:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8466: Fix: GetCurveSpeedLimit needs railtype from current tile https://git.io/JLHgv
10:31:45  <Timberwolf> Doesn't either TTO or TTD have a level crossing collision if you leave it long enough?
10:32:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, some title screen had that, but i don't remember which one
10:33:19  <LordAro> Timberwolf: :D
10:33:49  <Eddi|zuHause> also, iirc there were different title screens for the TTO demo, TTO release version, and TTO mars expansion
10:34:14  <Timberwolf> Yes, early TTO demos have flat land with no vehicles.
10:34:27  <Timberwolf> I think there might also be some intermediate variations between that and final.
10:34:29  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant a later demo, which had an actual title screen
10:34:57  <Eddi|zuHause> it was distributed on a gaming magazine in germany
10:35:10  <Timberwolf> I wonder if I still have my demo disk.
10:35:12  <Eddi|zuHause> somewhen 1993-ish
10:35:43  <Timberwolf> Have a feeling a lot of the floppy disk collection got culled, and it may have been early enough someone in the house thought, "you have the full game, why do you need the demo disk?"
10:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> you can probably find it here http://www.tt-ms.de/downloads/
10:36:50  <Timberwolf> My demo came from a game shop, they were giving them away free with purchased games.
10:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was probably this one i remember http://www.tt-ms.de/downloads/ttodemo105126.gif
10:37:24  <Timberwolf> Not sure what I was buying at the time, although I could probably narrow it down given the limited number of pre-1994 games in my collection.
10:38:01  <andythenorth> BIAB
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10:44:02  <Samu> hi
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11:19:32  <Samu> i got a question
11:20:12  <Samu> can someone else create a pull request of stuff that is not theirs?
11:23:34  <Samu> what happens when you click this? https://github.com/SamuXarick/OpenTTD/pull/new/industry-sort-by-production-with-cargo-filter
11:28:47  <LordAro> yes, that would create a pull request
11:29:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc commented on pull request #8466: Fix: GetCurveSpeedLimit needs railtype from current tile https://git.io/JLHa0
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11:38:58  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8468: Fix #8316: Make sort industries by production with a cargo filter possible https://git.io/JLHah
11:39:01  <Samu> well
11:39:06  <Samu> inb4 reject
11:39:29  <Samu> I am 99% sure
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11:45:10  <Samu> 'this' may only be used inside a nonstatic member function.
11:46:13  <Samu> CargoID cargo = this->cargo_filter[this->produced_cargo_filter_criteria];
11:46:21  <Samu> it does not like 'this'
11:48:25  <LordAro> correct
11:50:47  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] FLHerne commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/JLHVw
11:53:32  <FLHerne> Samu: In a context that isn't a nonstatic member function, what do you expect 'this' to be?
11:54:56  <FLHerne> static members aren't attached to a particular object, and of course nor are non-member functions
11:59:31  <andythenorth> what shall we do today Brain?
12:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the same thing we do every night, pinky
12:11:59  <andythenorth> why did I buy a full size bluetooth keyboard?
12:12:03  <andythenorth> it's too big :P
12:12:04  <andythenorth> oops
12:12:47  <andythenorth> ok so are regions just lists of towns?
12:12:54  <andythenorth> with a bit of extra sugar?
12:13:17  <andythenorth> or we could start from 'why?' not 'how?'
12:14:19  <andythenorth> hmm turns out a bluetooth keyboard is a DoS vector if I've let my kids pair it with their devices
12:15:08  <andythenorth> or rather, if I let them turn it on even
12:15:30  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, conceptually, a region would be a "list of towns", but that is an implementation detail, not a concept to base a feature around
12:15:54  <andythenorth> yeah I didn't want to get stuck in the implementation
12:16:13  <andythenorth> I just wonder if there are any use cases for regions that aren't met by 'list of towns'
12:16:42  <andythenorth> what if a region was used to modify part of a town zone, but not all of it?
12:16:50  <andythenorth> 'this industry is polluting'
12:16:59  <andythenorth> so nearby towns demolish houses around it
12:17:24  <Eddi|zuHause> that's an area, not a region
12:17:32  <andythenorth> 'this region has flooded'
12:17:42  <Eddi|zuHause> again, an area
12:18:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "area" here meaning "a list of tiles"
12:18:31  <andythenorth> implementation :)
12:18:33  <andythenorth> but ok
12:18:40  <Eddi|zuHause> where "list" is not the right word, but a standin for some other implementation detail
12:18:51  <andythenorth> are regions always contiguous (all tiles are joined)?
12:19:23  <Eddi|zuHause> a region (as list of towns) wouldn't be concerned with tiles at all
12:19:56  <andythenorth> yes but that assumes the implementation defines the 'what it is' no? :)
12:20:11  <Eddi|zuHause> a town could cover one or more areas (e.g. town zones and stuff)
12:20:21  <andythenorth> or rather, what alternative definitions of a region might there be?
12:20:38  <Eddi|zuHause> but between a tile and a region would be at least one level of indirection
12:21:34  <andythenorth> what if regions weren't contiguous, but could be composed of multiple bounded areas?
12:21:51  <andythenorth> picture is easier TBH https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_of_Westphalia#/media/File:Holy_Roman_Empire_1648.svg
12:22:04  <Eddi|zuHause> if the region has no concept of tiles, the concept of continguousness has no meaning
12:22:17  <andythenorth> +1
12:22:32  <andythenorth> if the region has no concept of tiles, how does it manifest on a tile-based map?
12:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> you can run a voronoi partition over the map, with the town centers as origin tiles
12:23:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that would assign each tile to exactly one town
12:23:51  <andythenorth> this sounds too silly, but region must have some fundamental concept of location and/or extent?
12:23:56  <andythenorth> otherwise it's not really a region?
12:24:00  * andythenorth just checking
12:24:33  <Eddi|zuHause> voronoi partitions are a bit awkward to calculate on a grid
12:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> as it doesn't automatically give you information like which towns are adjacent, which it would on a continuous plane
12:25:17  <andythenorth> hmm
12:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause> (with continuous and continguous being different concepts)
12:26:04  <andythenorth> if towns had, e.g. political allegiance, is that a 'region' or an 'alliance'?
12:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a region
12:27:12  * andythenorth contemplating Dice Wars clone in OpenTTD https://images.crazygames.com/dicewarsb.png?auto=format,compress&q=75&cs=strip&ch=DPR&w=1200&h=630&fit=crop
12:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause> next question would be: must regions be distinct? (a town can only be part of one region) or hierarchical (a region as a whole can be part of a superregion), or arbitrarily overlapping?
12:28:41  <andythenorth> if we force them to be distinct we repeat 'can only have 1 GS' issue
12:28:44  <andythenorth> but for regions
12:28:53  <andythenorth> different content types conflict about it
12:29:01  <andythenorth> geospatial maps have layers
12:29:12  <andythenorth> layers have a controlling entity
12:30:35  <andythenorth> hierarchy....dunno
12:32:15  <Eddi|zuHause> imagine a crusader kings GS :p
12:33:29  <andythenorth> is there anything so far that GS can't already do?
12:33:46  <andythenorth> not trying to shoot down regions, just wondering if they are actually a thing
12:35:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a GS idea: a road builder GS, which runs a voronoi partition (or actually a delaunay triangulation, which is kind of the mirror universe twin), which gives you all adjacent towns, then it would build country roads between each adjacent town center, and highways would be built along the borderlines between towns, avoiding the town centers
12:35:38  <andythenorth> sounds like the Catan game board
12:35:51  * andythenorth doesn't play Catan much, but involves building roads
12:35:53  <andythenorth> along edges
12:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause> in a very abstract way, yes
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12:37:56  <andythenorth> so currently GS can get town location
12:38:07  <andythenorth> and query locations of arbitrary tiles etc
12:38:14  <andythenorth> so is regions just a GS lib?
12:43:19  <Eddi|zuHause> depends, on what you actually want to DO with the regions
12:43:45  <andythenorth> change cargo payment rate, influence cargodist, help newgrf build industries
12:44:24  <andythenorth> also blockbusters
12:45:22  <andythenorth> (grid-crossing game) https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/pict/184337390488_/Blockbusters-Game-igloobooks-2018-Board-Game-Quiz.jpg
12:49:33  <andythenorth> regional power grid
13:19:13  <TrueBrain> _dp_: you had a script that analysis savegames, don't you? How ever rough it is .. mind sharing? :D
13:27:31  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] TrueBrain approved pull request #8463: Change: Default settings improved for new players https://git.io/JLH6R
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13:50:11  <LordAro> TrueBrain: turns out updating newgrf airports is quite a lot of work
13:50:28  <LordAro> the first commit predates the newgrf airport stuff that is there
13:50:34  <LordAro> (rotations, etc)
13:51:35  <TrueBrain> LordAro: seen the date, I am not really surprised, I have to admit
13:51:41  <LordAro> :p
13:51:52  <TrueBrain> but it might give good inspiration how to do it
13:52:11  <LordAro> also just trying to apply the (resolved) diff isn't easy either
13:52:48  <LordAro> with NULL/nullptr, then there's been some changes with "tile resolvers"
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13:53:06  <TrueBrain> I think it is easier to look at what it changed, and re-applying it
13:53:11  <LordAro> yeah
13:53:13  <TrueBrain> instead of trying to clean up the diff :D
13:54:47  <LordAro> yeah
13:54:53  <LordAro> wait, i said that already
13:56:25  <TrueBrain> repeating is the key to success, right? :D
13:56:33  <LordAro> yeah
13:56:38  <TrueBrain> haha
13:58:37  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8463: Change: Default settings improved for new players https://git.io/JLHPz
13:59:44  <TrueBrain> So LordAro starts a discussion outside of the Discussion page ...
13:59:47  <TrueBrain> what to think about that :P
13:59:53  <LordAro> fight!
14:00:09  <LordAro> would you like me to move it? :p
14:00:26  <TrueBrain> well, it would help for sure; but on the other hand, 10 people voted in favour, 1 against .. and frosch123 came up with the idea
14:10:11  <TrueBrain> 2 weeks he had the time to participate in the discussion .. and now he objects :P
14:10:40  <TrueBrain> but it seems you object not on a technical level, but on a "how it looks" .. that is preference, so that is good :)
14:10:47  <andythenorth> consensus by silence
14:10:58  <TrueBrain> I was scared a bit it was really a debug feature that happened to become a setting .. that would have been terrible :D
14:11:10  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #8461: Feature: Permanent rivers https://git.io/JLHXk
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14:13:50  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause how would regions work for areas where town is 'none'? :)
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14:22:08  <TrueBrain> $ python -m analyzer savegames/opntitle-1.9.sav
14:22:08  <TrueBrain> {'savegame-version': 207, 'compression': b'OTTX', 'map': {'width': 128, 'height': 128}}
14:32:07  <Samu> i need a NewGRF expert that teach a NewGRF noob to tell me how things are done
14:33:10  <Samu> taking my "canalized river" feature, I though of this special canal to have a somewhat different graphic than the ordinary canal
14:33:50  <Samu> how am I proceeding here?
14:34:23  <Samu> how do i make it visible for NewGRF
14:38:51  <TrueBrain> LordAro: please do make the balance of the fact that there was 2 weeks to comment on the Discussion, and that your remark is preference (if I understand you correct); should that block merging the PR? (honest question)
14:39:22  <LordAro> TrueBrain: no, just an additional opinion, nothing blocking
14:42:43  <TrueBrain> cool :)
14:43:03  <TrueBrain> I like how Factorio did it btw, but it can also be rather confusing :P
14:43:14  <TrueBrain> but, their segment highlight is very nice
14:49:01  <TrueBrain> LordAro: I did a thing .. https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-savegames
14:49:10  <TrueBrain> I would rather have the savegames on an S3, but that is a lot of effort, so meh
14:49:18  <TrueBrain> mainly: https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-savegames/blob/master/metadata/map-size.yaml
14:50:50  <TrueBrain> it would require either for people to clone that in the regression folder with your PR or with a git-submodule, so not sure yet what to think of this
14:50:55  <TrueBrain> input is welcome :)
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15:04:41  <TrueBrain> I plan to add stuff like: brackets for "amount of trains", stations, road vehicles, etc
15:04:58  <TrueBrain> and more of these metadata that I would like to know when looking for a suitable savegame to test N :)
15:06:00  <TrueBrain> Possibly convert it to html and publish with GitHub Pages
15:06:19  <TrueBrain> Something to try out tomorrow :D
15:07:07  <LordAro> intriguing
15:08:05  <andythenorth> :D
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15:29:02  <andythenorth> hmm now what?
15:29:05  <andythenorth> boats?
15:55:36  <michi_cc> TrueBrain: Did you want to wait on frosch for #7000?
16:04:04  <Eddi|zuHause> do we lose anything by waiting?
16:04:08  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7924: Feature: Water tiles have a depth https://git.io/JLHQl
16:04:34  <snail_UES_> so, I’m trying to install libiconv using macports, but I’m getting an error on gtk3
16:04:38  <andythenorth> I think we lose nothing
16:04:44  <andythenorth> patience is a virtue etc
16:04:44  <TrueBrain> I think that is the best thing to do michi_cc, given he had a strong opinion about that PR
16:04:45  <Eddi|zuHause> how long did he say he was away for?
16:04:52  <snail_UES_> I tried “cleaning” it, but it didn’t work… any ideas anyone?
16:04:54  <andythenorth> till after new year
16:05:02  <andythenorth> but the PR is like what...2 years old?
16:05:16  <TrueBrain> Waiting a few more days won't kill anyone :)
16:05:29  <andythenorth> it has progression, that's the main thing :)
16:05:40  <michi_cc> snail_UES_: I think most people (person :) here use homebrew and not macports.
16:06:27  <andythenorth> I switched, it's not that macports is broken, it's just that homebrew seems to always work
16:06:56  <andythenorth> I tried running both, not advised :)
16:07:30  <andythenorth> snail_UES_ I have a different OS and probably different XCode, but I have to use this for a compile
16:07:32  <andythenorth> rm -rf build; mkdir build; cd build; CPLUS_INCLUDE_PATH="/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX.sdk/usr/include" cmake ..; make
16:07:59  <andythenorth> specifically the SDK path is the significant part, the rest was just convenience stuff TB gave me
16:08:24  <andythenorth> but that was for library detection, not linker failures
16:08:35  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: yes, I had to use a specific cmake
16:08:49  <snail_UES_> but that didn’t help with the linker
16:08:50  <Eddi|zuHause> as a rule of thumb, i never trust any random online suggestion containing "rm -rf"
16:09:07  <andythenorth> well it's not * :)
16:09:46  <Samu> How to NewGRF?
16:10:12  <andythenorth> Samu start by writing one
16:10:30  <Samu> i made canalized river, and i thought it to be a good idea to add a graphic to it
16:10:43  <Samu> sprites or such
16:11:07  <_2TallTyler> Isn't a canalized river...just a canal?
16:11:14  <andythenorth> it's got a magic bit
16:11:17  <andythenorth> so it reverts to river
16:11:21  <andythenorth> if demolished
16:11:39  <_2TallTyler> Does it need to look different than a canal?
16:11:54  <andythenorth> dunno :)
16:11:57  <andythenorth> samu has an itch
16:12:05  <andythenorth> hmm - off-topic, why is ship progression?
16:12:06  <Samu> maybe, i don't know, I'm not in touch with the real world
16:12:24  <andythenorth> other than sprites, how do ships 'progress' in game?
16:12:52  <_2TallTyler> Bigger, more cargo. Maybe cheaper running costs as crew sizes decrease.
16:13:05  <_2TallTyler> Faster loading times thanks to containerization
16:13:52  <andythenorth> all valid
16:14:26  * andythenorth wondering whether to do 2 generations or 3
16:14:26  <_2TallTyler> I know any speed increase has been hashed out a million times on the forum
16:15:19  <andythenorth> I could just have 1 generation and magically change sprites by date
16:15:23  <andythenorth> but that's blearch I tried it
16:17:50  <andythenorth> I guess I need to vary the cranes for appearance https://grf.farm/images/3-generations-of-freighters.png
16:17:54  <andythenorth> kind of tedious work
16:18:43  <glx> andythenorth: you may want to add -DCMAKE_BUILD_TYPE=Release (or RelWithDebInfo)
16:19:00  <andythenorth> glx yes I should thanks
16:19:14  <glx> because debug builds are slow
16:19:22  <andythenorth> yes
16:28:52  <andythenorth> kinda hard to do much tech tree for ships
16:29:20  <andythenorth> start: ships, all sizes; later: add container ships branch, all sizes
16:29:21  <andythenorth> FIN
16:29:48  <_2TallTyler> Ships have gotten much larger though?
16:30:02  <andythenorth> not in a way that relates to game
16:30:14  <andythenorth> unless we project "you just can't buy / build bigger ones"
16:31:05  <andythenorth> they're not even faster IRL :P
16:31:19  <andythenorth> like US freight trains, average freight ship speeds have fallen
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16:33:21  <andythenorth> ha progression is kind of meaningless for a transport type with infinite capacity anyway :)
16:33:58  <andythenorth> ship nerf? :P
16:34:48  <_2TallTyler> Infinite route capacity. You can still run fewer larger ships and notice a visual difference.
16:35:58  <_2TallTyler> A quick search for tonnage shows a big change over time. A WWII Liberty Ship carried about 10k deadweight tons, Panamax is about 50k, and New Panamax is 120k.
16:37:04  <_2TallTyler> Not that those exact values should be used, but I would like to be able to fit several trainloads into a single ship in late game.
16:37:12  <andythenorth> the problem I found with this before is that there are players who want to do 1890s games or so for a long time
16:37:26  <andythenorth> so nerfing early game ships for the benefit of 2030 players doesn't work
16:37:42  <andythenorth> it is quite hard to do progression, was my conclusion :)
16:37:48  <andythenorth> with trains, you just add more wagons
16:38:01  <andythenorth> but limiting early ship size is just annoying
16:38:14  <andythenorth> reliability?
16:38:19  <_2TallTyler> Are your early ships in FISH boosted beyond real life?
16:38:24  <FLHerne> andythenorth: 1890s land vehicles have correspondingly low capacity
16:38:28  <andythenorth> way way way smaller than RL
16:38:38  <FLHerne> The problem is that industry production isn't
16:38:41  <andythenorth> most RL ships have capacities that are no use in the game
16:39:08  <_2TallTyler> Too large or too small?
16:39:14  <andythenorth> way too large
16:39:17  <andythenorth> factor of 10 or more
16:39:34  <_2TallTyler> How does Iron Horse compare to RL?
16:40:09  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I think early games would work better if FIRS production scaled quite strongly by year
16:40:34  <FLHerne> I know the supply-boost cycle kind of does that
16:40:44  <FLHerne> But not in quite the same way
16:40:59  <andythenorth> FLHerne should be done by a GS?
16:41:23  <andythenorth> newgrf can do it, but eh
16:41:44  <andythenorth> FIRS needs to stop ignoring the ottd production multiplier
16:41:51  <andythenorth> I will fix that for FIRS 5
16:42:07  <andythenorth> then other things can modify FIRS production (i.e. GS)
16:43:25  <andythenorth> imho it won't work without modifying payment rates, but I might be wrong
16:43:33  <andythenorth> I guess 'lower costs' can address that
16:45:25  <_2TallTyler> Back to ships though, I think giant modern ships could provide interesting progression and allow players to keep up with boosted industries. Most routes probably couldn't fill a New Panamax ship, so you'd still need smaller coastal freighters, but there would be the occasional route where you get to play with really big ships.
16:47:06  <_2TallTyler> I built a Mesabi Iron Range scenario where I wanted to fill Great Lakes freighters with iron ore from 6 mines headed to the steel mill across the map, but even the largest ship could fit only about a trainload. It looked ridiculous with a constant parade of ships and cost too much so I switched to trains.
16:47:13  <andythenorth> there is RedFISH I guess
16:47:36  <_2TallTyler> Is that a fork of FISH?
16:47:39  <andythenorth> yup
16:47:41  <andythenorth> I find there are limits to "but OpenTTD has no scale"
16:47:51  <andythenorth> it kinda does, it just ranges about 2:1
16:48:33  <andythenorth> 4.5k ships https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?t=70956
16:48:44  <andythenorth> there's another one that has 50k ships, but really?
16:49:16  <_2TallTyler> Interesting, I'll have to try that sometime
16:49:26  <_2TallTyler> 50k does sound excessive
16:49:56  <andythenorth> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=33030
16:50:00  <andythenorth> it's 22k, oil tanker
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16:50:57  <_2TallTyler> I'm not one to push for realism of any kind. I just think more differentiation makes for a more interesting game. And the huge capacities of ships with the near-infinite ocean capacity IRL is their main IRL advantage.
16:52:08  <andythenorth> I think the only solution is....hoverbarges!
16:52:11  <_2TallTyler> Barring any change to ship pathfinding, now that we have multiple docks per station it might be interesting to limit how many ships can load at one dock, to add some capacity constraint and encourage players to build big harbors
16:52:30  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Scaling income and costs for increasing production over time sounds a bit like inflation :p
16:52:36  <andythenorth> doesn't it
16:52:42  <andythenorth> I'd rather the economy did that
16:53:25  <andythenorth> I'd happily patch FIRS to support economy mods (presumably GS)
16:54:10  <andythenorth> so are we doing daylength?
16:54:22  <andythenorth> because trying to sort out progression for 150 years of normal speed play is one thing
16:54:29  <andythenorth> and daylength / frozen time is another
16:56:44  <andythenorth> _2TallTyler https://github.com/andythenorth/NotWater/issues/1 "docks which have a 'size' concept, with n slots (and ships have a property for size)"
16:57:22  <andythenorth> see also 'locks with different sizes'
16:57:38  <FLHerne> andythenorth: I don't think it needs to be a GS thing
16:58:00  <FLHerne> grfs are already very opinionated about time periods
16:58:15  <andythenorth> there's no spec limitation to doing it in FIRS
16:58:30  <andythenorth> I just don't want to spend time tuning it for other people's play-styles :)
16:58:33  <andythenorth> I tuned it for me
16:58:55  <andythenorth> it's inefficient to try and do it for other people via written feedback loop :)
16:59:06  <andythenorth> could just be a 'put numbers in here' parameter
16:59:13  <FLHerne> I know, I don't think there's a conceptual limitation either
16:59:13  <andythenorth> but most players can't access params during game
16:59:34  <FLHerne> That's a sensible reason :p
16:59:46  <andythenorth> it's definitely "nah I can't be bothered" not "bad idea, won't work"
16:59:51  <andythenorth> someone should fork :P
17:00:00  <FLHerne> You could have LOTS of parameters :D
17:00:14  <andythenorth> given the choice, I'd have lots of forks :P
17:00:23  <FLHerne> production modifiers for 1800, 1850, ..., 2100
17:00:28  <_2TallTyler> I whole-heartedly support NotWater
17:00:29  <FLHerne> interpolate between them
17:00:58  <andythenorth> how many FIRS forks are there now? 5 or so?
17:01:03  <_2TallTyler> The nice thing is most of it can be done in pieces
17:01:05  <FLHerne> But then you spend all your time explaining to people how to change their fork without breaking everything
17:03:36  <andythenorth> surprisingly I don't
17:03:40  <andythenorth> I feared that I would
17:03:44  <andythenorth> but the support burden is low
17:05:47  <andythenorth> so...hoverbarges
17:05:50  <andythenorth> :P
17:06:24  <andythenorth> _2TallTyler was the canal boats you?
17:07:08  <_2TallTyler> Yep. I'm probably going to convert them to WaterWay road vehicles though
17:07:18  <_2TallTyler> Lunchtime, be back later
17:07:28  *** _2TallTyler has quit IRC
17:09:22  <andythenorth> hmm NRT ship set?
17:09:31  <andythenorth> new NRT flag, can build road on water
17:14:30  <snail_UES_> Eddi|zuHause: to answer your reply on my post in JGR’s thread… I have both lzo and libiconv installed
17:14:44  <snail_UES_> libiconv @1.14_0+universal (active)
17:14:45  <snail_UES_> and
17:14:57  <snail_UES_> lzo @1.08_0 (active)
17:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause> snail_UES_: then it's not picking up the right versions (maybe it messed up include and library dirs). but i can't help you with that
17:15:40  <andythenorth> hmm ships just don't have the same concepts of roles and stuff https://grf.farm/iron-horse/2.16.0/html/tech_tree_table_red.html
17:15:48  * andythenorth will rebuild him!
17:15:56  <snail_UES_> right, so should I ask JGR?
17:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> does it work if you compile master?
17:16:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure how far JGR can actually help you with OS-specific stuff
17:18:09  <snail_UES_> if I compile his ottd, I still get the linking error
17:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, can you compile normal (non-JGR) ottd correctly?
17:19:06  <snail_UES_> haven’t tried that one. I’ll give it a try
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17:28:04  <snail_UES_> hmm, compiling master crashes before linking
17:28:26  <snail_UES_> "In file included from /roba/openttdm/src/settingsgen/settingsgen.cpp:14:"
17:28:33  <snail_UES_> “/roba/openttdm/src/settingsgen/../ini_type.h:15:10: fatal error: 'optional' file
17:28:34  <snail_UES_>       not found”
17:28:47  <snail_UES_> make[2]: *** [src/settingsgen/CMakeFiles/settingsgen.dir/settingsgen.cpp.o] Error 1
17:28:48  <snail_UES_> make[1]: *** [src/settingsgen/CMakeFiles/settingsgen.dir/all] Error 2
17:29:06  <snail_UES_> this didn’t occur in JGR’s version...
17:44:08  <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds weird
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17:45:32  <michi_cc> snail_UES_: Which OS version are you running? We recently switch to using C++17 everywhere and by default you need Xcode 10 for that, which is 10.13+
17:45:49  <snail_UES_> omg. I’ve got 10.12
17:45:57  <michi_cc> The resulting app should _run_ on older versions, but you need a recent enough compiler.
17:46:22  <snail_UES_> what should I do then? download Xcode 10?
17:46:48  <michi_cc> In theory you can install newer clang versions via macports/homebrew, but there are probably lots of caveats with that.
17:47:06  <snail_UES_> I’m using cmake 3.19.2, but that’s probably not enough?
17:47:12  <michi_cc> Xcode 10 requires OSX 10.13 or newer. Regarding the Xcode tools, Apple is not very backwards compatible.
17:47:15  <andythenorth> you're usually beholden to 'how have Apple broken headers this time?' :|
17:47:40  <michi_cc> It's not broken, just not included in older Xcode versions.
17:48:37  <andythenorth> 10.12 is only 2016, but in Apple world that's forever ago
17:48:42  <michi_cc> cmake 3.19 is plenty new enough.
17:48:45  <andythenorth> 2016 still seems like yesterday to me
17:49:23  <michi_cc> Well, you can still use Xcode 10 to build apps _for_ 10.12 or older, just not _on_ 10.12.
17:50:35  <michi_cc> Apple is running somewhat behind in the C++ support game, probably because their main languages are Obj-C/Swift.
17:54:29  <andythenorth> hmm shall we do some ship physics?
17:54:36  <andythenorth> ship chance of sinking?
17:55:00  <Eddi|zuHause> why would ships sinking be better gameplay than industries closing?
17:55:06  <andythenorth> yes
17:55:38  <andythenorth> well if we could figure out industry closure, we could use the same mechanic for ships? :P
17:55:40  * andythenorth doubts it
17:56:13  * andythenorth considers a 'luckiness' property for all newgrf things
17:57:35  <andythenorth> oof no, clearly I've played too many 'loot box' games
17:57:44  <andythenorth> bad
17:58:13  <snail_UES_> so it sounds like JGR stuck with the old Xcode then?
17:58:24  <snail_UES_> if so, that was a smart choice :)
17:59:00  <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably not going to stay that way :)
17:59:07  <glx> well it's a very recent change in master that may end in JGR in next sync
18:03:31  <snail_UES_> but I hate upgrading the OS… when I do it, a third of my apps stop working
18:04:21  <snail_UES_> what was the rationale behind moving to the new compiler?
18:04:27  <snail_UES_> besides that “it’s new"?
18:04:47  <Samu> I wanted to create an issue which would end up myself ranting about the "restart" command changes
18:04:58  <Samu> not sure I want that
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18:15:11  <TrueBrain> "New" is a very relative term here, I am afraid :D
18:16:11  <snail_UES_> I’d just like to know whether it brought some true benefits… and it wasn’t just a change for change’s sake
18:16:36  <snail_UES_> since it’s basically preventing some people (including myself) from being able to compile at all from now on
18:17:48  <TrueBrain> Had to look it up, most of C++17 is support since clang 3.9, which was released in 2017
18:17:54  <TrueBrain> That ain't new :D
18:18:09  <TrueBrain> And no, nothing in OpenTTD happens without 20 people voicing their opinion
18:18:48  <TrueBrain> So a change for the shake of changing is not compatible with OpenTTD
18:19:32  <TrueBrain> But having a compiler more than  3 years old is simply too old in 2020 .. but I guess you can install a newer version in a VM
18:19:54  <TrueBrain> It is only the compiler that is the issue
18:21:22  * Timberwolf is now pondering how you'd "solve" ships.
18:21:34  <Timberwolf> Obviously removing the infinite throughput in some way, but how is the fun part.
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18:23:46  <andythenorth> so shall we dig up nielsm's deep water patch?
18:23:48  <Timberwolf> Thinking one ship per dock, but maybe also some internal station mechanic, like having stockpile tiles and load/unload cranes.
18:23:58  <andythenorth> something something
18:24:02  <Timberwolf> Sort of a mini Factorio in dock objects :)
18:24:16  <andythenorth> I wouldn't like to nerf base ships, they're kinda fine
18:24:27  <andythenorth> nothing wrong with infinite capacity, it's rarely exploited
18:25:17  <andythenorth> I'd just like a bit more richness to ship gameplay
18:25:30  <Timberwolf> I guess the scaling is too easy compared with other transport types.
18:25:58  <andythenorth> this was promising, I wonder if it builds
18:25:59  <andythenorth> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/pull/7924
18:26:01  <Timberwolf> Aircraft are the least interesting. You hit the hard capacity limit of the biggest airport and that's it, go find another sink/source.
18:26:05  <andythenorth> classic for a WASM preview
18:26:22  <andythenorth> yeah aircraft so 1 dimensional, no choices to make at all :)
18:26:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JLHxg
18:26:31  <DorpsGek>   - Update: Translations from eints (by translators)
18:26:35  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick commented on pull request #7328: Feature: Improve restart command https://git.io/JLHx2
18:26:36  <Timberwolf> Road vehicles and trains you need increasingly complex networks to support more of them.
18:26:41  * andythenorth considers giving ships 'pathfinder accuracy' prop
18:26:42  <andythenorth> :P
18:26:50  <andythenorth> newer ships sail in circles less
18:26:51  <Timberwolf> The problem with the ships is you need the same infrastructure for 1 ship as 1000.
18:27:09  <Samu> is my rant gentle enough?
18:27:10  <andythenorth> 1-in-1 out lock restriction
18:27:23  <Samu> I commented on a merged PR :(
18:29:01  <Timberwolf> JGR has some sort of anti ship quantum tunnelling patch, not tried it though.
18:29:30  <andythenorth> the deep water would be the companion to rivers
18:29:43  <andythenorth> then barges could be nerfed on deep water, and sea ships on rivers/canals
18:30:23  <snail_UES_> you could check the distance from the closest shore?
18:30:32  <andythenorth> currently nerfing barges on ordinary water is pointless, as normal water areas are frequent
18:30:52  <andythenorth> and just nerfing sea ships on canal/river means 'barges everywhere'
18:30:57  <LordAro> Samu: probably best to raise a new issue
18:42:30  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened issue #8469: I don't like this feature at all. https://git.io/JLHpO
18:42:46  <Samu> holy crap, that wasn't what i expected
18:43:04  <LordAro> better fix it quickly then
18:44:19  <Samu> i clicked Reference in new issue
18:44:29  <Samu> and it just posted it immediately
18:47:20  <andythenorth> meh ships IRL
18:47:38  <andythenorth> a General Cargo Vessel isn't for general cargo
18:47:44  <andythenorth> Break-bulk isn't bulk
18:48:04  <andythenorth> Dry bulk isn't liquids
18:48:08  <andythenorth> but liquids are bulk
18:48:19  <andythenorth> bulk isn't general cargo
18:48:31  <andythenorth> but a multi-purpose vessel can carry general cargo and bulk
18:48:48  <andythenorth> super!
18:49:08  <andythenorth> and a multi-purpose vessel can't carry liquids
18:49:13  <andythenorth> unless it has tanks, then it can
18:49:14  <andythenorth> RL!
18:49:23  <andythenorth> so good for game design, pls try harder RL
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19:05:54  <andythenorth> town noise limits for hovercraft? :P
19:38:15  <Samu> im getting this warning
19:38:17  <Samu> D:\OpenTTD\OpenTTD GitHub\OpenTTD\src\station_cmd.cpp(2034): warning C4146: unary minus operator applied to unsigned type, result still unsigned
19:38:39  <Samu> I didn't touch there at all
19:50:09  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/runs/1627312882#step:6:694
19:56:15  <Samu> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/station_cmd.cpp#L2034
20:01:35  <Samu> https://preview.openttd.org/pr8444/ heh this can even be seen in the main menu
20:01:53  <Samu> the levelcross patch
20:13:09  <Timberwolf> My existing cars are too large to use as a "vehicles" cargo with the smaller trucks. (Joys of Road Vehicles being done to a partly logarithmic scale)
20:13:23  <Timberwolf> What a terrible problem to have to solve. https://i.imgur.com/Up3wagE.png
20:14:07  <andythenorth> Timberwolf same problem for me with Hog and train cargos )
20:14:50  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the problem when different vehicles use different scales
20:15:07  <snail_UES_> same for me, I had to draw cars really tiny to fit them on flatbed wagons
20:16:31  <Timberwolf> I now need to stop myself spending all evening tweaking this one object the 0.2% of players who complete the FIRS vehicle chain before the 1980s and use trucks to distribute it might see, ever.
20:18:26  <Eddi|zuHause> that's the kind of player which will complain very noisily
20:19:07  <glx> Samu: I think it's #8454, but seems to be only for release builds as the warning is not visible in the PR
20:19:39  <andythenorth> Timberwolf admirable dedication though
20:19:48  <andythenorth> especially if you automate it
20:19:56  <andythenorth> how much you hate me if I change Vehicles cargo?
20:20:08  <Timberwolf> What are you considering changing it to?
20:21:11  <andythenorth> I wondered about splitting it to trucks and cars
20:21:36  <andythenorth> not sure why really, just trying to figure out why I ever transport vehicles
20:21:46  <andythenorth> they also get produced in insane amounts
20:21:51  <andythenorth> as everything converges
20:21:58  <andythenorth> ever / never /s
20:23:24  <Timberwolf> Trucks is fine, I can already convert the Cortina and Mini sprites into their respective pickup variants :p
20:30:38  <snail_UES_> andythenorth: I already hate you enough for all the new cargoes you added in FIRS 4 :p
20:31:04  <andythenorth> well if I do the chemicals economy, it's all tankers
20:31:07  <andythenorth> so that's easy :P
20:31:23  <andythenorth> it's also a reason I might not do it
20:31:42  <snail_UES_> well, we can still paint those tankers in funny colors
20:32:14  <snail_UES_> but I just noticed I have a few dozens “new” cargoes of yours yet to code...
20:33:07  <snail_UES_> with all those different kinds of steel...
20:35:22  <andythenorth> GL :)
20:35:51  <andythenorth> I won't do much FIRS for a while
20:36:00  <andythenorth> other things I want to explore
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20:47:30  <Samu> i've also noticed something fishy about reliability #8325
20:47:39  <Samu> similar to what he describes
20:48:21  <Samu> like, for example, the default aircraft, having very much the same reliability between each other, due to their introduction date being close as well
20:50:24  <Samu> so, multiple aircraft introduced in 1950 have the same reliability
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21:01:16  <andythenorth> revert!
21:01:21  <andythenorth> or not
21:01:45  * andythenorth votes not
21:04:53  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] SamuXarick opened pull request #8470: Change #8325: Make engine reliability independent of introduction date https://git.io/JLQU9
21:05:08  <Samu> not a total revert
21:05:13  <Samu> partial revert
21:08:21  <andythenorth> :)
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21:14:10  <andythenorth> is it time for next livestream yet?
21:15:14  <Samu> i wonder if the new random seed breaks vehicle grouping
21:15:21  <Samu> i need to test newgrfs :(
21:16:13  <Samu> vehicle intro date, i mean
21:16:41  <Samu> andythenorth, you have vehicles being introduced in the same date?
21:16:56  <Samu> in some newgrf? i always forget what they're called
21:17:09  <andythenorth> try Iron Horse
21:17:15  <andythenorth> around 1955-1965
21:19:52  <andythenorth> Samu actually that's wrong, I'm checking
21:20:05  <andythenorth> mostly this feature was to synchronise wagon introductions
21:20:48  <Samu> not just wagons
21:20:50  <andythenorth> Samu there is a large block of wagons that all have         introduction_date:              date(1960, 5, 1);
21:21:21  <andythenorth> the engines are deliberately de-synchronised in most cases
21:29:16  <Samu> iron horse 1 or 2?
21:31:42  <Samu> ah, it was iron horse 2
21:31:59  <Samu> just noticed suddenly a ton of wagons becoming available in 1962
21:32:13  <Samu> looks like I didn't break that feature
21:33:57  <Samu> you have 6 train engines available in 1860, let's test this
21:34:21  <supermop_Home> well andy so far my hotels look crap
21:36:48  <Samu> yep, all your 1860 engines got the same reliability: 98%
21:37:10  <Samu> engines with an intro date of 1860*
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21:39:07  <supermop_Home> andythenorth https://imgur.com/a/aY3S66h
21:39:14  <Samu> with the PR, they get: 89%, 83%, 96%, 81%, 86% and 84%
21:39:19  <andythenorth> chalet hotel!
21:39:33  <Samu> and they're still introduced at the same time
21:39:49  <supermop_Home> brick noise texture needs touch ups/lintels and sills
21:40:01  <andythenorth> sort the roof out, you're golden
21:40:51  <supermop_Home> or replacing to wood siding / stone / stucco. roof needs texture and snow, balcony slab brightness needs a tweak, ground tile needs -something-
21:41:46  <andythenorth> Samu results seem valid
21:41:58  <andythenorth> supermop_Home give it some grass, always cheers a sprite up
21:42:00  <supermop_Home> roof style has two variants... mountain west park lodge timber truss or chalet longitudinal beams
21:42:16  <andythenorth> hotel object set forthcoming?
21:42:16  <supermop_Home> i was thinking chips style flower beds?
21:42:56  <supermop_Home> well you got 4 tiles in firs.... if you want  pool/shuffleboard court / lawn with Adirondack chairs
21:43:27  <andythenorth> FIRS could be 6 tiles TBH
21:43:34  <andythenorth> can it break over slopes ok?
21:43:38  <supermop_Home> lobby entrance and port-cochere?
21:43:41  <andythenorth> (different height levels)
21:43:43  <supermop_Home> yeah
21:43:54  <supermop_Home> all the chunks are modular
21:44:27  <supermop_Home> most Adirondack hotels and National park lodges are on terraced slopes for effect here
21:44:33  <andythenorth> I'm favouring more of a resort
21:44:43  <andythenorth> it looks silly having 6 tile pax station at 4 tile hotel
21:44:49  <supermop_Home> early 20th C ideas of sitting out on lawn chairs
21:45:23  <andythenorth> recovering from consumption
21:45:26  <andythenorth> or shell shock
21:45:28  <supermop_Home> breaking heights makes driveways and port cochere a little odd without complex custom foundations
21:45:35  <supermop_Home> exactly
21:46:02  <supermop_Home> i considered a paiimo santatorium style
21:46:11  <andythenorth> or shell shock
21:46:17  <andythenorth> oops wrong key
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22:03:23  <supermop_Home> ha
22:03:58  <supermop_Home> the bricks do need a bit of a foster touch to look less muddy
22:04:41  <supermop_Home> how 'allowed' is it to re-crop but not otherwise alter the original hotel so that it works as a 1-tile module
22:09:00  <andythenorth> the original original?
22:09:04  <supermop_Home> yeah
22:09:26  <supermop_Home> so that firs could use it more flexibly in layouts
22:09:58  <andythenorth> nah
22:10:02  <FLHerne> 'not', I imagine
22:10:05  <andythenorth> 'not'
22:10:53  <FLHerne> You could use the OGFX one, except it looks like a blurry mud hut
22:10:56  * andythenorth must to sleep :)
22:10:59  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
22:16:59  <Timberwolf> OK, that was way too much detail for the final output resolution. https://i.imgur.com/3EOLiAn.png
22:19:48  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf lotus elans?
22:20:01  <supermop_Home> sunbeams?
22:20:08  <Timberwolf> Close, MX-5s.
22:20:22  <supermop_Home> the mini made me think earlier...
22:20:45  <supermop_Home> i drew a wrx for my RVs
22:20:59  <supermop_Home> coulding get the car carrier sprite to work tho
22:21:06  <supermop_Home> so gave up
22:21:13  <Timberwolf> This is for 1980s-on cargo, I wanted something that had a suitably long production life because I can avoid needing too many sprites.
22:21:42  <Timberwolf> (Ignoring that there are multiple generations, but at this resolution it doesn't matter so much)
22:22:04  <supermop_Home> i have like a 40s pick up, then 70s pick up, then the imprezza with and without hood scoop
22:23:28  <supermop_Home> if i did 2 or 4x mybe i could sneak in some Daihatsu Hijets / kei trucks and vans
22:23:40  <supermop_Home> but at 1x it'd look like a crate!
22:28:25  <FLHerne> Timberwolf: Do you render the 1x sprites separately, or just downscale the 2x ones?
22:29:31  <supermop_Home> new bug report: vehicles cargo is clearly a 3rd generation miata, when game date is 2002 and should still be 2nd generation
22:34:36  <supermop_Home> trying to work up motivation to mess with hotel sprites
22:36:22  <Timberwolf> FLHerne: They get rendered seperately.
22:38:56  <Timberwolf> I did some comparisons a while ago with re-rendering vs scaling, you get better detail recovery rendering again.
22:39:32  <FLHerne> Thanks (that's what I suspected)
22:40:05  <FLHerne> Do you have any ideas for higher-level constructs that would make NML suck less?
22:40:20  <FLHerne> I was playing around with a sort of template system
22:40:48  <Timberwolf> Internally something like 25 rays are cast for each resultant pixel, with the ones near the centre of the pixel having more influence over the end result.
22:41:38  <FLHerne> That's pretty neat
22:41:45  <Timberwolf> (This is probably overkill, my settings are from earlier versions of the renderer which were more prone to glitching out and doing weird things)
22:42:26  <FLHerne> Do you do any sort of alignment between the model and the pixel grid?
22:42:52  <Timberwolf> No, I probably should - details end up slightly asymmetric currently due to that.
22:43:03  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf what is your process for rendering to palette colors?
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22:43:45  <Timberwolf> Work out the RGB value, downsample with Floyd-Steinberg dithering.
22:44:44  <supermop_Home> i thought about setting up basic glossy rhino or vray materials that would be in the palette, render with plain white light and then accept that resultant shades would be close enough to clamp without looking muddy
22:44:45  <Timberwolf> Count how many samples are a "special" colour (animated/company/etc.) - if company colour, restrict the output range to the relevant CC range. If it's an animated colour, pick the most common index.
22:45:12  <supermop_Home> what are you rendering in?
22:45:25  <Timberwolf> I wrote my own renderer :)
22:45:32  <supermop_Home> neato
22:45:36  <Timberwolf> https://github.com/mattkimber/gorender
22:46:04  <snail_UES_> I wish I had time to draw stuff in 2x like that :)
22:46:25  <Timberwolf> It's very tied to one particular workflow (and I didn't realise until 2TallTyler started using it how much I compensate for the renderer in the voxel modelling, and vice versa)
22:46:32  <snail_UES_> the level of detail you can achieve is just great
22:46:47  <supermop_Home> hmm
22:47:51  <supermop_Home> the main thing that keeps tugging me back towards wanting model rather than draw is curved and angled shapes, so idk if voxels would be a good fit for me
22:48:11  <Timberwolf> Quite.
22:48:14  <supermop_Home> i have wanted to learn how to write a simple renderer though
22:48:28  <Timberwolf> I have a lot of messy code which generates normals based on surrounding voxels, then averages them.
22:48:44  <Timberwolf> With a file defining how "smooth" different TTD palette ranges are.
22:49:37  <supermop_Home> even just for work, i often want to just make simple digrams from models that aren't photoreal or artistic at all, but its a kludge to export essentially viewport captures and then photoshop
22:50:10  <supermop_Home> when some kind of diagrammatic renderer could produce just what i wanted
22:50:50  <Timberwolf> My whole process is a workaround for the fact I prefer TTD to be in "pixel art" style rather than "rendered" style, but I'm utterly hopeless at drawing traditional pixel art.
22:52:36  <supermop_Home> i also prefer the pixel style, but I've wondered if a particular rendering workflow could be developed that would maintain the vibrant toylike quality even in rendered sprites
22:54:00  <Timberwolf> (The reality is something in between the two, which has now become a sort of deliberate stylistic choice)
22:54:18  <supermop_Home> pixel art looks great because of all the cheating / magic you can do with supernormal highlights/shadows, and working only in saturated colors
22:54:35  <supermop_Home> but learning and executing all that magic is a huge pain
22:55:52  <supermop_Home> like a flat wall that ends up with non-realistic shadows in one corner - raytracing wont do that bc light wont do that, but it looks good and basically you have to do it manually
22:57:09  <Timberwolf> I tend to bake a certain amount of shading into the objects by hand.
22:57:30  <supermop_Home> by setting voxel colors manually?
22:57:41  <supermop_Home> or post processing?
22:58:04  <Timberwolf> Manually - not a huge amount, just enough to emulate some of those contrasts you'd get in hand-drawn art.
23:00:05  <supermop_Home> ive wondered - if you could use 32bpp, but limit shades to a smooth gradient within the color ranges in the palette - like a smooth gradient from darkest cc blue to lightest, but nothing outside of that range
23:00:39  <supermop_Home> the problem is that many of the palette 'gradients' are not actually monochromatic
23:01:16  <Timberwolf> That's what I did with the early versions of Road Vehicles (all the public releases up to now) - it gives you a result which looks smoother, but loses some of the 'grain' and character of the 8bpp sprites.
23:02:21  <Timberwolf> You do spend ages trying to get company colours to work nicely, though!
23:03:52  <Timberwolf> Tracks is hybrid 8bpp/32bpp, everything from Trains onward is pure 8bpp.
23:05:12  <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] michicc approved pull request #8470: Change #8325: Make engine reliability independent of introduction date https://git.io/JLQmg
23:05:58  <Timberwolf> Originally I was going to do Trains with 32bpp vehicle sprites and 8bpp overlays for animations/cargo sprites, but ended up making the whole thing 8bpp to keep the file size down.
23:07:43  <Timberwolf> As a result I fixed so many problems with the colour resampling and dithering there wasn't really any point doing things in 32bpp (especially since the objects start out in the TTD palette)
23:13:20  <snail_UES_> honestly, when I do my pixel art, I try to avoid saturated colors like plague
23:13:54  <snail_UES_> “earthy” colors give you a much better effect… otherwise the final result looks too toyish
23:18:18  <supermop_Home> snail_UES_ true, but even the browns and tans in the palette are pretty saturated
23:18:32  <supermop_Home> as compared to like the locomotion palette
23:19:17  <supermop_Home> Timberwolf this is what i was thinking of a while back: https://imgur.com/a/obVZumg
23:19:34  <Timberwolf> Oh yeah, I remember that image.
23:19:49  <supermop_Home> each material is a palette color in the middle of a 'range'
23:20:18  <supermop_Home> but the shading and highlights obviously depart from the palette.
23:20:30  <snail_UES_> for tan, I usually use 35-3B
23:20:32  <Timberwolf> The biggest problem I had with 32bpp was getting the mask and the underlying colour to play ball (especially across multiple company colours)
23:21:15  <supermop_Home> yeah masked cc on rendered sprites often looks weird
23:22:02  <supermop_Home> does the game mix the mask color additively or like a multiply operation?
23:22:34  <Timberwolf> I don't recall :/ (This is how much I've gone back to 8bpp!)
23:24:14  <supermop_Home> snail_UES_ if you draw by hand you can draw a bunch of all brown and grey stuff that still feels lively and vibrant, whereas clamping a rendered thing that is already desaturated looks muddy
23:25:12  <supermop_Home> but drawing pixels by hand at 2x or 4x is Sisyphean
23:26:08  <snail_UES_> supermop_Home: yes, I never tried to do any rendering (I’m not that good :p )
23:26:38  <snail_UES_> but usually, I only use the most saturated tones for certain accents (or details)
23:26:54  <snail_UES_> I feel the bulk of the sprites to look better if drawn in more earthy tones
23:27:09  <supermop_Home> snail_UES_ its all the 'wrong' things humans do to cheat while drawing that make sprites look good
23:27:40  <snail_UES_> haha, I tend to agree
23:28:01  <snail_UES_> you can’t follow a mathematical model 100% when you manually draw sprites, especially in such small sizes
23:28:05  <supermop_Home> as you are basically doing the dithering by hand to draw the eye where you want it
23:28:17  <supermop_Home> i regret not drawing this hotel at 2x to get all these timber bits right
23:28:39  <supermop_Home> but i guess downsampling them later would make them look even more of a mess
23:29:32  <supermop_Home> as is i got a wood post that looks to be about 1m in diameter
23:30:18  <snail_UES_> yes, I found a similar thing when drawing my depots (or even catenary pylons)
23:30:42  <snail_UES_> you have to play with the color shades a lot, to give the proper feel of size and depth
23:30:45  <supermop_Home> yeah also choosing what to fake from / to _ view is a lot of manual work
23:31:25  <supermop_Home> i should probably redraw unspooled at 2 or 4 x, as it is a grf almost entirely of poles
23:31:52  <supermop_Home> that are all 2px wide
23:32:35  <snail_UES_> unluckily, the original TTD perspective is distorted… / sprites are “shrunk” compared to their _ counterpart
23:33:17  <supermop_Home> basically have to manually chop one window's worth of length off
23:35:28  <Timberwolf> My catenary is surprisingly chunky, 3px on poles (With the occasional random 2px thrown in, thanks renderer). https://i.imgur.com/46NXVpI.png
23:35:41  <Timberwolf> I guess unspooled models lower tension systems, though.
23:38:51  <supermop_Home> only the 'high speed tramway' is a real catenary system (and i used straight flat wires for that) the other ones are all more low tension trolley wire
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23:41:10  <FLHerne> Timberwolf: tbh, I find your catenary a bit too chunky for my taste
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23:42:37  <FLHerne> (whereas the third-rail seems nearly invisible at 1x zoom)
23:48:46  <Timberwolf> iirc, a lot of that is I was fighting against the renderer's normals calculation (it doesn't like thin objects, as it can't figure out which way is up)
23:55:53  <snail_UES_> ^^ the reason why I still prefer to do pixel pushing
23:57:45  <Timberwolf> I keep meaning to fix this by adding an option for the renderer to treat a particular palette index as "use for normal calculation, discard before rendering)
23:58:52  <Timberwolf> But I also quite like that sort of style.
23:59:30  <Timberwolf> My guiding principle is, "what would Simon Foster have done if he'd had 4 times the pixels to work with?"

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