Log for #openttdcoop on 30th January 2012:
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09:22:03  <nicfer> hi
09:22:22  <nicfer> what version of japan buildings set is using the welcome server?
09:30:19  <planetmaker> try to connect and get it from online content
09:30:52  <planetmaker> or visit the server's website...
09:31:17  <planetmaker> obviously 2AD96BDB6D1B696C62987AC20F132E9E
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10:48:21  <nicfer> that grf seems to not be in bananas
10:49:18  <nicfer> and neither on grfcrawler
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11:32:34  <planetmaker> nicfer, try !grf
11:32:35  <planetmaker> !grf
11:32:35  <PublicServer> planetmaker: (Version 8.0)
11:33:35  <V453000> something not on bananas on stable? :o lets have a look
11:34:15  <V453000> hm yeah that version is probably grf pack only
11:48:06  <V453000> I do not think it is worth it to use in particular japanese buildings as something grf pack only ... but I would say occasional use of some pack grfs is not bad, it at least makes people look at our webpage instead of just using that welcome server end of our community. But I think it should be done with some more ... "worthy" newGRFs like train sets (DB/US) or something else that shows substantial difference, while the japanese buildings a
11:48:10  <V453000> ^ Sylf
11:48:30  <V453000> I guess it wasnt intentional but still :)
11:50:26  <planetmaker> well. There's imho no reason to use the grfpack on stable
11:50:34  <planetmaker> the ps is something different, but still
11:51:10  <V453000> that is why I say occassionally
11:51:13  <planetmaker> I see meanwhile little motivation to support that grfpack just for the sake of a few deprecated newgrfs
11:54:03  <V453000> because otherwise there would be some good newGRFs "missing" ?
11:54:28  <planetmaker> that's the deliberate choice of those authors
11:54:37  <planetmaker> I can't be arsed to support their stupidity
11:54:49  <planetmaker> or vanity
11:55:23  <planetmaker> i.e.: if they don't care, I don't care either
11:55:28  <V453000> whatever you think about mb (and I agree), the DB set is still one of the few best newGRFs to play in a stable-like gameplay enrvironment
11:55:33  <V453000> not to mention the PS
11:56:47  <V453000> and my original idea of saying why the pack newGRFs on stable when used occasionally arent that bad idea was because it could make a few more people from stable interested in our pages, wiki and what not, which is always good
11:56:50  <planetmaker> and one newgrf is worth this whole support overhead it causes?
11:57:13  <V453000> is there just one?
11:57:48  <planetmaker> what else is that good that it's "needed"?
11:57:53  <V453000> it is the most notable one so I give example on that, but other newGRFs are interesting as well
11:58:06  <planetmaker> such as?
11:58:07  <V453000> north american stuff as roads and cities are also great
11:58:27  <V453000> or even the arctic stolen trees
11:59:44  <planetmaker> all what you mention is deliberate choice of the authors to NOT support it
12:00:01  <planetmaker> thus falls all in the category "can't be arsed to support it either" ;-)
12:00:09  <V453000> I dont talk about authors, I talk about why we want to use it
12:00:16  <V453000> I dont see authors related to this
12:00:29  <planetmaker> They don't want to support openttd
12:00:44  <planetmaker> why should I care then?
12:00:48  <planetmaker> they don't want people to play with their newgrfs (easily)
12:01:02  <V453000> so ... we wont?
12:02:12  <planetmaker> indeed I won't be made to jump when *someone* says 'jump' but refuses to cooperate at all. Yes
12:02:40  <V453000> not even if their product is desirable?
12:02:47  <planetmaker> not even then
12:02:51  <V453000> you kinda get a cookie for the jump
12:03:03  <planetmaker> yes. Panem et circenses
12:03:16  <planetmaker> that's how you keep the plebs quiet ;-)
12:03:22  <V453000> cant say I understand that
12:04:07  <planetmaker> If someone doesn't want to support the game - why should I support them by giving them publicity?
12:04:32  <V453000> because I like their product and want to use it?
12:04:38  <planetmaker> I'm not desperate enough to do what others want me to do just in order to get *some* newgrfs
12:04:55  <planetmaker> V453000, that's what I mean with "panem et circenses" ;-)
12:05:04  <planetmaker> it obviously works very well for you  :-P
12:05:18  <V453000> saying something I dont understand doesnt make your point any stronger
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12:06:46  <planetmaker> you thus support anti-openttd resentiments and sabotage the methods which make using it easy, V453000
12:07:04  <planetmaker> I don't want to sabotage proper methods which help players this way
12:07:44  <V453000> sabotage? :D
12:08:06  <planetmaker> those grf authors want it complicated
12:08:11  <planetmaker> I want the game easy to use
12:08:24  <planetmaker> Thus I don't support those who deliberately make it complicated
12:08:33  <planetmaker> (i.e. I don't support those newgrfs)
12:08:57  <V453000> yes because you just hate mb so much that you dont care about any gain you could get from it
12:09:05  <planetmaker> Oh, no, I do not hate him
12:09:09  <planetmaker> Not at all
12:09:38  <V453000> then at least his stance in these things :)
12:09:59  <planetmaker> Yes, it's a NewGRF which thus must not be played on servers
12:10:06  <planetmaker> what people do on their private game - I don#t care
12:11:04  <V453000> and I think it is a newgrf which is so good that it is worth it
12:11:36  <planetmaker> No NewGRF is good enough to be used without being banana-fied on other than test servers ;-)
12:11:55  <planetmaker> which is our dev server only ;-)
12:11:57  <V453000> for you perhaps
12:12:28  <planetmaker> well. I'll leave all support requests to you further on :-) Good choice for me then :-)
12:12:41  <V453000> I wonder what that takes
12:12:42  <planetmaker> But I expect you to explain all those dorks where to put stuff, too
12:12:53  <planetmaker> hours
12:12:59  <planetmaker> and patience
12:13:32  <V453000> you know how much of these two things it takes to make a good train set, dont you :)
12:14:50  <V453000> and about how many good train sets we actually have in total
12:15:03  <V453000> 2? 3? 4?
12:19:42  <Ammler> planetmaker: the grfpack is a "good" dummy check
12:20:27  <Ammler> it should not be used on ps, but ps should always have at least one from there :-)
12:20:39  <Ammler> s/ps/stable/
12:20:43  <V453000> ^ my original point
12:21:05  <V453000> but when you -occasionally- use it on stable you make some people take that dummy check too :p
12:21:06  <Ammler> I guess, it is give with the station grfs
12:23:00  <Ammler> V453000: well, there it is a test for the scenario creator not to include it
12:23:24  <V453000> what do you mean?
12:23:51  <Ammler> the scenario author fails, if he add a grfpack grf
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12:24:40  <Ammler> so the support should be to tell the author to remove the grf, rather to explain how to download the pack to a user
12:24:55  <V453000> the latter is better :)
12:25:06  <Ammler> easier for the author :-P
12:25:08  <V453000> makes more people interested in the "real" openttdcoop
12:25:16  <Ammler> worse for the support
12:25:51  <V453000> more people-> better? :)
12:25:53  <hylje> so are we finally phasing out proprietary grf
12:25:56  <Ammler> @wiki quickstart/stable
12:25:57  <Webster> Ammler: "Quickstart/Stable" (Redirect from "Quickstart/stable"):
12:25:58  <Webster> Ammler:
12:25:59  <V453000> isnt that what we all want?
12:26:00  <Webster> Ammler: Welcome to the Quickstart for the Stable competition server.
12:26:39  <Ammler> V453000: the wiki page does not explain how to get the pack
12:26:56  <V453000> true, that one doesnt
12:27:05  <V453000> -> more dummy test? :D
12:27:11  <Ammler> it was once decided not to use the pack there, but as you said, it can happen occasionally :-)
12:27:34  <V453000> yes I dont intend to break that decision, that still stands
12:27:42  <V453000> but once in a while a dummy test as you call it isnt a bad thing :P
12:28:00  <Ammler> the question is just, how to react, if someone complains about...
12:28:01  * Mazur can be a dummy, sometimes.
12:28:06  <Mazur> Test me!
12:28:12  <Ammler> removing the grf is more work for use but less support
12:28:19  <Ammler> us*
12:28:49  <Ammler> hmm, some grfs can't be replaced without issues, though
12:29:21  <V453000> depends how you put it. If he "complains" then there is probably no hope in them and I dont care about them. If he "asks" then they are the people we want to take attention to our public server, wiki etc
12:29:56  <V453000> sure, I dont even consider replacing newgrfs. The author should be able to know which one is and which one isnt in the pack and make such map from the very start
12:30:02  <Ammler> well, he complained here, where the pack is required, so pointing to the pack is fine
12:31:05  <Ammler> we could remove the pack from the stable server so such games wouldn't load
12:31:43  <V453000> no need I think
12:32:15  <Ammler> hylje: the issue is that those grfs are not just proprietary some are simply unsupported
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13:08:38  <planetmaker> <Ammler> we could remove the pack from the stable server so such games wouldn't load <-- maybe an idea ;-)
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13:19:49  <Ammler> planetmaker: it would basically require to add config --personal-dir, iirc
13:20:17  <Ammler> so ~/.openttd wouldn't be respected anymore
13:20:28  <Ammler> would not hurt as we have symlinked banans dir anyway
13:20:57  <Ammler> hmm, or can personl-dir be disabled?
13:21:54  <Ammler> --without-personal-dir
13:23:02  <V453000> why would you remove it when we barely ever use it there anyway?
13:23:17  <V453000> it is nice to have it "in case"
13:23:18  <Ammler> so it doesn't happen accidentially
13:23:41  <V453000> I believe Sylf will be more careful next time
13:23:51  <Ammler> :-)
13:24:09  <Ammler> the question is, why would you ever want a non-bananas grf there
13:24:30  <V453000> as I said, to have a nice game and for people to be able to participate they should visit our website
13:24:35  <V453000> just to force them do that once
13:24:42  <V453000> if you do it once in 3 months it wont hurt anyone
13:25:52  <V453000> if gets a bit boring to have just the few train sets cycling around for a hugely long time so it is nice to have a little exception once in a while
13:26:01  <Mazur> Especially if you make a note and link on the !help page.
13:26:17  <V453000> I bet people on stable will only be happy about those seldom treats
13:27:17  <Ammler> but it should be somehow noted, if grfpack is needed
13:27:25  <Ammler> also if it is just to help support
13:29:38  <Ammler> V453000: also bad is, if it uses newgrf, which are as newer version available on bananas
13:30:00  <V453000> are any such newGRFs in the pack?
13:30:14  <Ammler> yes, of course
13:30:22  <V453000> the only thing I can think of might be 2cc set 1.0.1 but I guess that is on bananas as well
13:30:24  <Ammler> isn't this one also one?
13:30:44  <V453000> I think 1.0.1 is hidden on-demand-only but it is on bananas
13:31:01  <Ammler> Japanese Buildings	2.0	118046 times	52453400	GPL v3
13:31:10  <V453000> ah right
13:31:26  <V453000> yeah, exact case
13:31:31  <V453000> but again, this was surely only accident
13:31:49  <Ammler> maybe time for 8.1 :-)
13:31:55  <V453000> but I believe there could be a reason to use that town set, they make a bit different buildings
13:32:07  <Mazur> Have I missed the reason why updated newGRFs an't replace the ones in the pack?
13:32:09  <V453000> even the JapSet Buildings or how is that called is nice
13:32:26  <V453000> Mazur: some old newGRFs can still be useful if they arent on bananas
13:32:31  <V453000> even if there are newer versions of them
13:32:41  <Mazur> I dig it.
13:32:46  <Ammler> Mazur: those are in most cases not compatible
13:34:24  <V453000> good enough? last line
13:35:17  <Ammler> yes, fine, I meant to make notes about current games, if they use non-bananas grfs
13:35:57  <Ammler> and specially be sure, it happens only say once a month or so
13:35:57  <V453000> on the PS?
13:36:03  <Ammler> no
13:36:16  <V453000> stable games havent used a non-banas newgrf for months
13:36:29  <Ammler> this whole talk is about stable, isn't?
13:36:29  <V453000> ever since we tested the HEQS for andy which is ... a long time ago
13:36:33  <V453000> it sure is
13:36:48  <Ammler> this jap building issue is on stable, right?
13:36:56  <V453000> yes
13:37:13  <Ammler> so why do you accidentially switch topic to ps? :-P
13:37:26  <Ammler> you confuse me :'-(
13:37:36  <V453000> I confused myself too now :D
13:37:54  <Ammler> ps should always use grfpack newgrfs
13:38:00  <V453000> yes
13:38:06  <Ammler> e.g. all station grfs
13:44:36  <planetmaker> Ammler, not sure we can remove more from the grfpack
13:44:41  <planetmaker> but might be worth a look
13:46:07  <Ammler> well, at least move to obsolete
13:48:55  <cornjuliox> !players
13:48:58  <PublicServer> cornjuliox: There are currently no clients connected to the server
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15:44:51  <Firestar> hi
15:44:58  <Mazur> lo
15:45:08  <Firestar> hows going?
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16:26:59  <Firestar> !players
16:27:01  <PublicServer> Firestar: There are currently no clients connected to the server
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16:44:22  <V453000> !dl win64
16:44:22  <PublicServer> V453000:
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16:45:04  <V453000> !password
16:45:04  <PublicServer> V453000: arenas
16:45:22  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
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16:45:34  <Firestar> hi
16:45:34  <PublicServer> <V453000> hi
16:45:48  <PublicServer> <Firestar> hows goin?
16:46:36  <PublicServer> <Firestar> on stable meechs transport is gone bankrupt
16:46:46  <PublicServer> <V453000> not much I can do with that
16:46:54  <PublicServer> <Firestar> i know
16:54:49  <Maraxus> !password
16:54:49  <PublicServer> Maraxus: pimply
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16:58:09  <PublicServer> <Firestar> why are at DROP WEST and DROP EAST passengers waiting?
16:58:39  <PublicServer> <V453000> because some careless person forgot to put unload and leave empty for drop order
16:58:45  <PublicServer> <V453000> for which people should be executed
16:59:01  <PublicServer> <Firestar> well i never forget bout this
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18:08:56  <Firestar> going everything good there?
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18:59:33  <cornjuliox> !password
18:59:33  <PublicServer> cornjuliox: winged
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19:09:56  <Guvnor> @quickstart
19:09:57  <Webster> Quickstart - #openttdcoop Wiki -
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21:37:23  <sane> !players
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21:37:25  <PublicServer> sane: There are currently no clients connected to the server
21:37:42  <sane> !info
21:37:42  <PublicServer> sane: #:1(Orange) Company Name: 'Sadingstone Transport'  Year Founded: 2050  Money: 18075503598  Loan: 0  Value: 18079723815  (T:860, R:66, P:0, S:0) unprotected
21:37:52  <sane> !password
21:37:52  <PublicServer> sane: winged
21:38:48  <PublicServer> *** Game still paused (number of players)
21:38:56  <PublicServer> *** Player has changed his/her name to sane
21:52:24  <PublicServer> *** sane has joined company #1
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21:53:54  <PublicServer> *** Game unpaused (number of players)
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21:54:13  <PublicServer> <bassals> hello
21:54:53  <sane> hi just peeking how everything works out :)
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22:28:19  <Maraxus> !password
22:28:19  <PublicServer> Maraxus: tenths
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22:28:54  <PublicServer> <bassals> hello
22:29:00  <PublicServer> <Maraxus> hi
22:40:31  <PublicServer> <bassals> can we raise the train limit?
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22:45:41  <sane> gn
22:48:53  <bassals> goodnight
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23:11:11  <planetmaker> calc 23*6000 + 3.5*3000
23:17:58  <Mazur> So, I take it you have no advice to give about the industry images, then, planetmaker.
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