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Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 5th February 2010:
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00:07:47  <Ammler> hmm, how do I unpack those pack on my server?
00:08:11  <KenjiE20> unzip?
00:12:34  <Ammler> hmm, also no idea, which packs I have to download
00:12:52  <Ammler> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=46682 <--
00:12:54  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - 32Bpp Graphics Pack (23/1/2010) (at www.tt-forums.net)
00:13:01  <KenjiE20> ^ that's pretty much the main issue with 32bpp atm
00:13:11  <KenjiE20> wtf do you actually get?
00:24:11  <KenjiE20> grr
00:24:17  * KenjiE20 should stop reading the forums now
00:24:17  <Ammler> :-)
00:24:29  <Ammler> how to wget from those file hoster?
00:25:24  <KenjiE20> iirc you can pass wget usernames
00:25:58  <KenjiE20> --http-user=USER --http-password=PASS
00:25:59  <Ammler> I (of course) don't have premium accounts
00:26:13  <KenjiE20> so "--http-user=guest --http-password=guest"
00:26:30  <PeterT> KenjiE20: You should stop reading and start posting
00:27:24  <Ammler> ha, I try lynx
00:27:48  <KenjiE20> heh
00:27:55  <Rubidium> just ignore anything on there :)
00:28:40  <Ammler> mäh, I give up
00:29:07  * Ammler wonders, if they ever asked orudge for ftp account
00:29:18  <KenjiE20> lynx rocks, Links for prettiness :P
00:31:02  <Ammler> hehe, but lynx can't read those stupid spam checks
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00:34:16  <dragonhorseboy> hey
00:34:32  <Ammler> the most useful link is missing.
00:34:51  <Ammler> a nice torrent
00:35:00  <dragonhorseboy> torrent for what?
00:35:09  <KenjiE20> the internet
00:35:10  <Ammler> 32bpp full pack
00:35:11  <KenjiE20> :P
00:35:14  <Ammler> :-)
00:35:25  <dragonhorseboy> kenji very funny :p
00:35:29  <PeterT> that would be nice :-)
00:35:53  <dragonhorseboy> kenji you'll need to order quite a big pile of 2TB hds to even be able to get anywhere partially close :)
00:36:06  <dragonhorseboy> ammler how large filesize-wise is it?
00:36:12  <KenjiE20> it's a torrent, just filter files :)
00:36:26  <Ammler> currently, I wasn't successfully to download something
00:36:38  <Ammler> didn't
00:36:40  <Ammler> -to
00:36:58  <KenjiE20> wasn't able*
00:37:13  <KenjiE20> wasn't able to*
00:37:16  <KenjiE20> >_> late
00:37:21  <Ammler> :-)
00:37:23  <Ammler> thanks :-P
00:37:26  <dragonhorseboy> couldn't download*
00:37:27  <dragonhorseboy> :P
00:37:31  <KenjiE20> asdf
00:38:01  <Ammler> Filefactory.com woks !
00:38:43  <KenjiE20> they make kitchen utensils now? :P
00:39:48  <Ammler> hmm
00:39:54  <Ammler> but now, how to unpack a .exe?
00:40:11  <KenjiE20> unzip?
00:40:15  <Ammler> 7za x doesn't work
00:40:17  <dragonhorseboy> is it a compressed or standard exe?
00:40:36  <dragonhorseboy> if its the latter you just have to run it to be even able to get any files out of it
00:40:49  <Ammler> unzip:  cannot find zipfile directory in one of Full_Pack_23-01-10.exe or
00:41:10  <Ammler> hmm, trying wine?
00:41:25  <KenjiE20> by the looks of the thread, it'll want a gui
00:41:50  <KenjiE20> ahhh winrar
00:41:57  <KenjiE20> so you'll want unrar
00:42:09  <PeterT> or funrar
00:42:25  <Ammler> no wine, too much X dependencies...
00:42:31  <KenjiE20> Self Extractable - Just click and choose where to unpack (those with winrar or 7zip, can just use the right click for more oprions)
00:42:36  <Ammler> ah
00:42:54  <KenjiE20> fortunately unrar CLI if free
00:42:56  <KenjiE20> is*
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00:43:47  <dragonhorseboy_> meh..odd server failure
00:44:21  <Ammler> Full_Pack_23-01-10.exe is not RAR archive
00:44:32  <Ammler> KenjiE20: I would have a rar license ;-)
00:44:46  <KenjiE20> buuh >_<
00:44:52  <dragonhorseboy_> already tried 7zip I take it ammler?
00:45:01  <Ammler> yes, there was a time, i used windows
00:45:40  <dragonhorseboy_> umm ammler..not just windows
00:45:44  <Ammler> and I didn't use warez :-P
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00:53:39  <dragonhorseboy> if 7zip still can't open it then its what I thought it was..you'll just have to run the exe to even get any files
00:53:59  <dragonhorseboy> bit annoying sometimes I know
01:03:24  <dragonhorseboy> anyway I'm off to watch some of a tv show
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01:49:03  <PeterT> Ammler: Your up speed isn't very good :-(
01:56:15  <Ammler> then you don't load from the server
01:57:08  <Ammler> the server is still downloading from my home, which has only 50kB :-)
01:58:18  <Ammler> server has 10MB
01:58:34  <PeterT> I'm downloading 154kb/s now
01:59:07  <Ammler> yeah, I see you :-)
01:59:23  <Ammler> but you have all from the server, so the rest will be slow
01:59:26  <Ammler> <50
01:59:32  <PeterT> Ammler: Do I have an American flag?
01:59:48  <Ammler> I don't have any fancy client
02:00:05  <Ammler> uTorrent 2.0.0.0
02:00:09  <PeterT> same here
02:00:11  <PeterT> uTorrent 2.0
02:00:15  <Ammler> yes, that is yours.
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02:00:20  <PeterT> Torrent
02:00:22  <dragonhorseboy> hey
02:00:32  <Ammler> mine of course isn't some closed source client
02:01:14  <PeterT> Ammler: I'm confused, you have utorrent, or I do?
02:01:19  <Ammler> you use the same host for torrents as for irc
02:01:44  <Ammler> don't your client tell you the client of the peers?
02:02:07  <Ammler> I use rtorrent
02:02:08  <PeterT> Oh yes, you use libTorrent
02:02:16  <PeterT> huh?
02:02:27  <Ammler> yes, libTorrent 0.12.6.0
02:02:54  <Ammler> he, josef drexler is a constributor to that client, btw.
02:03:03  <Ammler> -r
02:03:13  <PeterT> cool
02:03:37  <Ammler> libTorrrent is the "backend", rtorrent the GUI
02:03:55  <PeterT> my client states libtorrent
02:04:57  <Ammler> if 62.75.156.145 has 100% clients can leech with 10MB :-)
02:24:55  <Ammler> PeterT: you seed quite bad ;-)
02:25:06  <PeterT> +ly
02:25:29  <PeterT> well, Ammler
02:25:33  <PeterT> ETA: 1m
02:26:05  <Ammler> I could now configure the server to automatically seed torrents someone uploads via web
02:26:25  <Ammler> and leech of course first
02:27:10  <Ammler> would you know, how to create a torrent?
02:27:31  <PeterT> not really
02:27:42  <PeterT> I couls stumble my way through if it was really important
02:28:07  <Ammler> so utorrent doesn't have a menu button "create torrent"?
02:28:19  <PeterT> there is
02:28:40  <PeterT> I don't know about trackers and such
02:29:36  <Ammler> well, trackers is easy, I used http://opentracker.blog.h3q.com/about/
02:29:37  <Webster> Title: About & Abuse | Stories from an Opentracker (at opentracker.blog.h3q.com)
02:29:49  <Ammler> http://denis.stalker.h3q.com:6969/announce
02:29:53  <PeterT> what do they do?
02:30:04  <PeterT> just search the entire torrent world for people who seed your torrent?
02:30:11  <Frankr> yh
02:30:20  <Frankr> lol, oops
02:30:25  <Ammler> you just a need to add that announce url to the torrent and the rest is done automatically
02:30:42  <Ammler> then you spread your torrent to the internet and add it to your client of course.
02:32:56  <Ammler> (you don't minova and piracytorrent or how they all are called.)
02:33:07  <Ammler> need*
02:33:14  <Ammler> but now good night :-P
02:34:14  <PeterT> night AMmler
02:34:16  <PeterT> *Ammler
02:39:36  <PeterT> night all
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07:33:53  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #736 (New): FIRS breaks gameplay (prevents route building) <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/736>
07:49:55  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #736: FIRS breaks gameplay (prevents route building) <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/736#change-1964>
07:52:44  <andythenorth> planetmaker: hi hi
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08:12:43  <planetmaker> moin andythenorth
08:14:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I don't get quite why you consider the current industry placement a flaw which makes playing FIRS literally impossible (priority immediate)
08:14:37  <planetmaker> industry density is quite dense, but, yes, if one choses high density...
08:39:31  <andythenorth> planetmaker: perhaps it's only priority normal
08:39:42  <andythenorth> I think it's very bad for FIRS to break game play though
08:40:30  <planetmaker> but... it doesn't break game play?
08:41:21  <planetmaker> The screens show that each industry could be servviced. You'd need a monolithic block of stations in order to achieve blocking one completely
08:43:18  <andythenorth> try building a road or rail route across some of those screens.   It's possibly - but only with tunnels.  FIRS shouldn't force that on players.
08:43:56  <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=123680
08:44:07  <andythenorth> there is no way to build a NW-SE route without a tunnel
08:44:46  <andythenorth> FIRS can isolate large tracts of the map currently :o
08:52:15  <planetmaker> That's a tiny piece of a map. I don't consider that more than inconvenient.
08:52:40  <planetmaker> And having to resort to building tunnels... well. Personally I don't mind too much
08:52:57  <planetmaker> Note, I won't argue that the screenshot looks nice
08:53:15  <planetmaker> But I'd attribute that to the too high industry density chosen.
08:53:23  <planetmaker> Every algorith has its limits where it breaks
08:53:24  <andythenorth> density is 'normal'....
08:53:27  <planetmaker> *algorithm
08:53:32  <andythenorth> map is relatively flat
08:53:43  <planetmaker> he... for normal that is quite dense then ;-)
08:54:04  <andythenorth> I thought I could screw with probability to fix this, but frosch says it's a bad idea
08:54:26  <planetmaker> I wonder why it is a bad idea.
08:54:58  <andythenorth> not sure.
08:55:17  <andythenorth> probability scales with map sizes....could be unintended consequences
08:55:44  <andythenorth> anyway, it irritates me and I think players won't like it.  They already complain about industry sets 'spamming the map'
08:55:58  <andythenorth> PBI does it as well
08:56:32  <andythenorth> With PBI on a hilly map, you often have to wait for industries to close before a sane route can be built
08:56:32  <planetmaker> whatever 'spamming the map' means ;-)
08:56:47  <planetmaker> too many industries (in general)?
08:57:02  <planetmaker> or too many in a particular place of the map?
08:57:19  <andythenorth> not sure.  But I know when PBI does it, it's irritating.  Same for FIRS :o
08:57:28  <andythenorth> oh well, I have to work now
08:57:33  <planetmaker> same here :-)
08:57:54  <andythenorth> I'll probably end up fixing this in nfo, as devs don't agree among themselves whether it's a problem
08:58:09  <andythenorth> coding this is going to suck :|
08:59:25  <planetmaker> yeah, that will
08:59:28  <planetmaker> :S
09:00:05  <planetmaker> Well. Make it on separate template. Then it's done once and included everywhere and adopted easily, if the openttd code changes
09:00:29  <planetmaker> btw, something I wondered: is it (only) the industry count which stops FIRS being TTDP, too?
09:00:36  <andythenorth> think so
09:00:40  <andythenorth> fixable
09:01:11  <andythenorth> TTDP might only be 32 industries, I forget
09:01:12  <planetmaker> Yeah, especially with the economy settings. I wondered whether it'd be a nice gesture to add TTDP compatibility
09:01:24  <planetmaker> (not that I personally have it even installed)
09:01:35  <andythenorth>  I can't and won't test TTDP, so I'm not releasing that without someone else being responsible for RRDP
09:01:37  <andythenorth> TTDP /s
09:01:44  <andythenorth> wallyweb has expressed interest in doing this
09:02:53  <planetmaker> I just wonder whether 'just' an economy with 32 industries will do or whether we may not define more than 32 in the whole grf.
09:04:35  <andythenorth> dunno
09:04:45  <andythenorth> feel free to look into it :)
09:06:08  <planetmaker> not quite high on my todo list, especially given my currently freely available time
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11:49:46  <dragonhorseboy> hey
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17:41:30  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: OpenGFX - Revision 299: Doc: update readme a bit wrt current download locations and installation ... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/opengfx/repository/revisions/299> || Redmine - Revision 3211: Translations updates <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/redmine/repository/revisions/3211> || Redmine - Revision 3210: Fixed: invalid format parameter returns a DoubleRenderError on issues in... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/redmine/repository/revisions/3210> || Redmine - Revision 3209: Reverts r3366. <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/redmine/repository/revisions/3209> || Redmine - Revision 3208: Fixed: invalid format parameter returns a DoubleRenderError on issues in... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/redmine/repository/revisions/3208> || Redmine - Revision 3206: Added tests for Issue#by_X finders <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/redmine/repository/revisions/3206> || Redmine - Revision 3207: Refactor: Extracted the select_all calls to a new private method. <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/redmine/repository/revisions/3207>
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17:53:15  <dragonhorseboy> hey
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19:50:16  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 579: Change: Move the action2 sequence concerning cargos... <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/579>
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20:04:24  <dragonhorseboy> hey
20:09:56  <andythenorth> hi hi
20:10:08  <dragonhorseboy> :) how're you and FIRS?
20:10:19  <andythenorth> meh
20:10:30  <andythenorth> I cycle up a big hill every day to come home
20:10:57  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: have you posted your set outline yet?
20:11:00  <dragonhorseboy> heh...makes it sound like you're on the wrong side of the hill .. should be downhill to get back home :P
20:11:07  <dragonhorseboy> but as if
20:12:11  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth oh since irc has kinda been somewhat dead I never got much progress but I could pastebin the partial scheme texts now if you want?
20:13:02  <dragonhorseboy> zxcx
20:13:12  <dragonhorseboy> err .. sorry stupid keyboard side :/
20:14:11  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth just asking you but you think fish could be just shipped directly from the fishing boat to a town store for simplification sake or were fish industries really that common enough?
20:14:52  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: fishing cargo caused a *lot* of debate on the FIRS thread.  I kind of got fed up with it :)
20:15:14  <dragonhorseboy> ah heh didn't know that
20:15:17  <andythenorth> I have removed fish from 'normal' FIRS.  Fishing harbour produces food directly.
20:15:28  <andythenorth> Fish will reappear in some economies as a 'bonus cargo'
20:16:55  <dragonhorseboy> harbours...hmm as in a shore cluttered with shallow net lines? :)
20:18:52  <dragonhorseboy> anyhow a smaller question: what think of animal-raising industries receiving HAY_ (or just GRAI if you want to simplify) to boost the output a little bit?
20:20:08  <dragonhorseboy> I mean its not as a big boost as eg adding coal for extra steel output.. but hmm say the ranch was outputting 120 animals .. bringing in the feed could raise that to hmm say 150-170 animals
20:20:34  <dragonhorseboy> or a lower number..I've not tried the math yet
20:21:10  <dragonhorseboy> if you're fed up with that aspect as well...sorry I asked :P
20:21:51  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: no no, the HAY_ or GRAI is a good idea....I can explain my thinking with FIRS for that...it will take a few lines though!
20:22:06  <andythenorth> so in FIRS all farms accept Farm Supplies as production boost
20:22:38  <dragonhorseboy> glad I helped you with another idea to think about ;)
20:22:43  <andythenorth> I did plan an Animal Feed Plant which would convert Grain, Fruit & Vegetables etc into animal feed - represented as Farm Supplies
20:22:52  <dragonhorseboy> hmm yeah
20:22:57  <andythenorth> However it won't work,
20:23:00  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth at least its real organic feed.. not china cheap craps :P
20:23:18  <dragonhorseboy> or well..you know how it is with the many bad dog food mixtures there has been lately
20:23:26  <andythenorth> in FIRS this means the Arable Farm could ship Grain to the Feed Plant, then get it back as Farm Supplies
20:23:31  <andythenorth> That's a fail
20:23:51  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth...yeah true you do have problem with certain run-around loops in FIRS ideas
20:24:08  <andythenorth> yep, it's one problem with 'composite cargo'
20:24:32  <andythenorth> It's why I added Manufacturing Supplies recently, and stopped factory-types industries from accepting Engineering Supplies
20:25:12  <andythenorth> However, as a bonus feature, I might add 'Animal Feed' as a cargo in a Farming economy, and make it boost production at animal farms
20:25:35  <andythenorth> And maybe animal farms can supply 'fertiliser' to farms that plant things....
20:25:42  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth actually you reminded me now..took a while to work out how to not make the chain too wide but anyhow...
20:27:52  <dragonhorseboy> logging camp - outputs wood and pulp (in varying ratio just like default farms) .. pulp goes to paper mill which turns that into paper which can either end up at a printing factory or directly to town store
20:28:17  <dragonhorseboy> I'm of course not 100% sure seperating wood from pulp is a grand idea but its in my 'scratch ideas' text file
20:29:50  <dragonhorseboy> I do have two types of coal mines tho.. the quarry kind thats usually built around reasonable flat land and the smaller-sized mine tunnels type that can be built anywhere even on a single 1x1 flat tile on a mountain face
20:30:10  <dragonhorseboy> anyway hmm give me a moment to pastebin the schemes I've decided on so far...
20:35:42  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: time to put them in the forums....you'll get along faster that way, and get useful feedback
20:37:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth: before you commit anything, pull ;-)
20:37:21  <planetmaker> nothing big, just moving a bit action2s for primaries into a template
20:37:38  <planetmaker> but it might help the next steps ;-)
20:44:48  <dragonhorseboy> sorry phone call again meh...hm...
20:45:59  <planetmaker> andythenorth: mind, if I move the debug parameter to parameter #2 (and parameter #1 will then become the stockpile size multiplicator)?
20:46:18  <andythenorth> planetmaker: no that's fine, just update the issue on the devzone.
20:46:20  <planetmaker> #0 remains the economy one
20:46:27  <planetmaker> ok
20:46:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker: actually can we plan the parameters a little now
20:47:00  <andythenorth> question: do you think more simple parameters or fewer bitmapped parameters are better?
20:47:06  <planetmaker> well, yes. But the stockpile size needs a full byte anyway :-)
20:47:29  <andythenorth> ok
20:47:35  <planetmaker> your question: it depends. Both is fine IMO. Depends upon the purpose
20:47:50  <andythenorth> hmmm.....I was thinking stockpile is binary: on or off....
20:47:55  <planetmaker> Bit flags can be done as just that - 8 per byte. But probably a bit related is nice
20:48:08  <andythenorth> I am open to discussing a multiplier, but not sure if it adds much?
20:48:22  <planetmaker> andythenorth: well. Either that. Or I could take it as a multiplier * 2^n
20:48:41  <planetmaker> at least for debugging and play testing it will help anyway
20:48:56  <planetmaker> and it's not like it's more work really
20:49:02  <planetmaker> at least not much
20:50:04  <andythenorth> well for debugging I have just been re-compiling....but that does mean re-starting a game!
20:50:19  <andythenorth> i.e. I change value in ids.pnfo. then recompile for testing
20:50:29  <planetmaker> well. querying a constant or a parameter... not much difference
20:50:43  <planetmaker> the value in IDs.pnfo will then be the default value
20:50:53  <planetmaker> or the minimum better
20:50:55  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: World Airliners Set - Revision 593: Update to ANA Pokemon 747 <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/worldairlineset/repository/revisions/593>
20:51:08  <dragonhorseboy> ok here andythenorth and I don't have to remind again that its only about half yet .. I've got several more chains to finalize on especially for exactly what would make up 'goods' yet .. here: http://pastebin.ca/1787409
20:51:30  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: move it to the forums....then it's easier to discuss!
20:51:38  <dragonhorseboy> and for the footnote the grain farm is supposed to be low output most of the times (I can't help it if the player uses the industry modifying grf and jack it up manually tho)
20:51:48  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth...not till its completed :p
20:52:04  <andythenorth> planetmaker: so lets model the player....I am new to FIRS, what value should I set for that parameter?
20:52:13  <planetmaker> andythenorth: none
20:52:15  <dragonhorseboy> the train tables are going to be the first thing to be public-ised anyway
20:52:25  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: stop waiting, go public!
20:52:31  <planetmaker> as new player you play with defaults. Which may well be your current value
20:52:52  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: release early, release often. Or you produce vapourware
20:52:57  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth...I'll need a fulltime artist if you want a rush job then .. or you could just me do it at a slower pace myself ;)
20:53:06  <andythenorth> planetmaker: what would be the benefit of setting that param to, e.g. 3?
20:53:18  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker tell that to the many other grfs on forums that only gets small update every few months
20:53:25  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you'd have 8 times as big stockpiles
20:53:25  <andythenorth> (I am happy to do it this way, just want to think it through)
20:53:32  <dragonhorseboy> neverminding that the british set has never been out for so long yet
20:53:55  <planetmaker> or better: 3 times. Easier on the people
20:54:03  <planetmaker> and 255 times as big is big enough, too ;-)
20:54:07  <dragonhorseboy> heh
20:54:11  <andythenorth> yep, 3 times is better.  most people can't think in powers
20:54:33  <planetmaker> or rather 254. 255 will be unlimited
20:55:09  <andythenorth> planetmaker: can you handle multiplying the values in the various texts (it's possible, I just don't want to do it)
20:55:19  <planetmaker> I'm not entirely happy with the latter, but...
20:55:46  <planetmaker> uhm... Texts... I didn't think about them so far in detail. I'm not sure, but I hope so
20:55:52  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: move your post to forums and I'll reply with my thoughts on it
20:56:04  <planetmaker> As long as I can print a value it should be no problem
20:56:14  <andythenorth> planetmaker: there are two routes: more texts (but we might run out of IDs), or dynamically setting the numeric values in the text (should be possible)
20:56:27  <planetmaker> andythenorth: only the latter is acceptable IMO
20:56:42  <andythenorth> ok, so if you're happy to code this, I'm fine with it
20:56:50  <planetmaker> if that's not possible, the several value idea dies. But for debuging purposes you do that already, don't you?
20:57:29  <planetmaker> Well. It's no biggy to change that into a switch, if it shows to be impractical
20:57:39  <andythenorth> planetmaker: changing which text is shown - no problem.  Calculating a multiplier of a value - *should* be no problem
20:57:56  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I just need to display a parameter value
20:58:00  <andythenorth> you'll need some advanced varaction 2, and you might need to get your head around the text stack ......brrrrrr
20:58:44  <planetmaker> I'll do the calculation intially in checks.pnfo, for all three, manufacturing, farm and engineering supplies
20:58:52  <planetmaker> and then just use those values I calculated there.
20:59:12  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth actually I now remember that I almost got myself into a bit of a long loop once .. was something about fertilizer and animals only to soon notice I could actually send fertilizer back without ever needing the fertilizer producing industry in first place
20:59:19  <andythenorth> planetmaker: should be fine
20:59:25  <dragonhorseboy> talk about having a bad brainstorming day :p
21:00:17  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: designing fun, good chains with some realism is a brain ache
21:03:24  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth you're right
21:05:15  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I at first looked at concrete as it was but it would had added several more single chains and complicate up everything so NO THANKS -_-
21:05:25  <dragonhorseboy> just going to send cement directly to be sold as it is
21:05:29  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I think it's no problem, just defining the string: http://wiki.ttdpatch.net/tiki-index.php?page=StringCodes
21:06:07  <dragonhorseboy> or for your fyi.. cement + gravel(or limestone instead works too) + sand + water + chemical = concrete
21:06:13  <dragonhorseboy> you see how complicated THAT is
21:06:38  <planetmaker> but indeed... that's the text stack ;-) Never looked at it that way :-P
21:07:15  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth oh yeah I almost forgot to tell you one more thing
21:08:02  <dragonhorseboy> its not the type I want (as my train grf doesn't even have any specific cars meant for this) but you theriocally could make a slight more relastic automobile industry than the one provided in ECS
21:11:44  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: I had cement as Engineering Supplies, I just moved it to Goods and now it goes straight to town
21:12:04  <andythenorth> In at least one economy I'm going to include cement, and deliver it to multiple industries
21:13:12  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: what is RDFD?
21:13:15  <andythenorth> Refined Food?
21:18:39  <dragonhorseboy> thought it was a bit too long to type in here if you didn't mind: http://pastebin.ca/1787435
21:19:11  <dragonhorseboy> but as for cement the reason I'm planning on it as a cargo itself is because the train grf has many of these decidated cement cars in it (and they can't even carry anything else at all) .. I do see your point tho
21:20:09  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: those train cars are why I plan to make cement available at least somewhere in FIRS....they are in other sets too
21:20:56  <dragonhorseboy> as for RDFD .. oh .. thats just a rough sketch on RefrigerateDFooD but I've been trying to redraw it to depend on the difference between FRUT and FOOD (that would mean lumping fish&milk into FOOD definition tho)
21:21:11  <dragonhorseboy> ah ok
21:21:26  <andythenorth> RDFD is not a bad idea
21:21:47  <andythenorth> your auto chain looks fun, but I think it will be a gameplay fail :o
21:22:07  <dragonhorseboy> http://www.trainweb.org/mcdonnell/ASSETS/roster/DSCN1945resize.jpg these kind of cement cars btw ;)
21:22:13  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I know...hehe :D
21:22:34  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth the funny thing is Railroad Tycoon 2 actually has a rubber>tires industry .. go figure ;)
21:22:41  <andythenorth> rubber -> tires is fune
21:22:42  <andythenorth> fine /s
21:22:48  <andythenorth> it's the use of steel that is the problem
21:23:01  <andythenorth> you end up needing to deliver steel everywhere, it gets kind of boring
21:23:12  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth here's another idea for you but it'll need a bit of modification to the trains (dbsetxl too)...
21:23:15  <andythenorth> I had steel -> parts, then steel+parts->engineering supplies
21:23:24  <andythenorth> it was boring
21:24:04  <dragonhorseboy> steel+tires+plastic = MotorCYCle (can be just a single industry as its only 3 inputs simplified)
21:24:21  <dragonhorseboy> the plastics being for the windshield, mud deflector, etc
21:24:35  <andythenorth> could work
21:25:13  <dragonhorseboy> the motorcycles aren't shipped on auto carriers tho hence mentioning modifying trainsets .. it would rather just fit into open wagons (even a flatcar with tiedown chains works) or anything like that
21:25:39  <dragonhorseboy> but yeah I'm staying out of the vehicles chain ideas myself :P
21:25:55  * andythenorth encourages dragonhorseboy to go post in the forums....more ideas will be found there.  most of them useless admittedly
21:26:28  <andythenorth> this is fun, but we're filling the channel :P
21:26:47  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth heheh yeah I plan on making a 100+ lines thread with the title of "cargo ideas never taking off" or something silly
21:27:19  <dragonhorseboy> just want to finish my actual scheme first as might get more crazy ideas out of that process ;)
21:27:45  <dragonhorseboy> and andythenorth who CARES! noone else seem to be awake now or are they? :P
21:27:52  <dragonhorseboy> hehehe
21:28:47  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: as much as you talk here, you'd get much more input in the forums
21:28:54  <planetmaker> and it'd be better spent. Honestly
21:29:05  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth anyhow .. you're right about steel being too easy to overuse sometimes
21:29:12  <dragonhorseboy> planetmaker blah? :P
21:29:57  <planetmaker> Well... you talk about *blah* which no one has seen. And then expect us to remember what you might have said here days ago, question somewhat relating to something... but without having proper frames
21:30:00  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I was thinking that my idea of grain as feed was overusing the cargo a bit but I'm trying your suggestion to mark it as farm supplies instead
21:30:12  <planetmaker> writing it up, in a comprehensive and coherent posting also will help YOU
21:30:16  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth ty for that anyway
21:30:50  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy no more answers until there's a forum thread ;)
21:30:58  <planetmaker> and it will help your conversation partners to get at least a common ground with you what to discuss
21:31:49  <andythenorth> and it will make you a better person generally ;)
21:35:30  * dragonhorseboy throws a password demand at the silly forum computers
21:44:51  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth there anything that been stumping you in FIRS or not yet?
21:45:54  <dragonhorseboy> (well aside to them cluttering so close together yeah lol .. I hated looking at these screenshots)
21:47:39  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: yep loads
21:47:59  <andythenorth> stumped by many things
21:48:05  <dragonhorseboy> any related to cargo chains or its mostly the nfo coding aspect?
21:49:24  <andythenorth> both
21:49:40  <dragonhorseboy> ah ic :)
21:50:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: are you compiling mac nightlies of openttd regularly?
21:50:55  <planetmaker> not regularily. From time to time. Currently rather weekly
21:51:08  <planetmaker> roughtly
21:51:49  <andythenorth> do they build reliably?
21:52:19  <planetmaker> well... they compile, yes. But you need to mind the lzo2 lib
21:52:28  <andythenorth> ok
21:52:57  * andythenorth is feeling the lack of nightly mac builds
21:53:11  <andythenorth> it's going to make testing newgrf bug reports increasingly tedious
21:53:20  <andythenorth> dunno if I can be bothered :o
21:53:31  * dragonhorseboy still can't figure out how to get cygwin working well yet but thats something low on the priority list yet
21:53:36  <planetmaker> didn't you already compile your own, andythenorth ?
21:53:59  <planetmaker> If you did it once, it should continue to work the same way
21:54:01  <andythenorth> I can compile whatever svn says is latest, it's not exactly hard.
21:54:15  <andythenorth> It's just the faff and the time...it's one extra thing too many
21:54:38  <planetmaker> that's fine then. Just do a svn up && make before you leave the computer. It does that then on its own
21:54:48  <planetmaker> or while you idle in the web or on irc :-P
21:54:53  <dragonhorseboy> heh
21:55:20  <andythenorth> planetmaker: actually, if make also installed the app to the right location, that would be one less hassle
21:55:26  * dragonhorseboy was looking at first compiling is2.1.1 w/watchgui but hm who knows
21:55:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth: what's "the right location"?
21:55:54  <andythenorth> well I am old-school, so /Applications/OpenTTD
21:55:55  <planetmaker> I never build a bundle, I just compile and start from xterm
21:56:19  <planetmaker> doing grfdev, I'm in xterm anyway. So a ~/ottd/trunk/bin/openttd & doesn't hurt me
21:56:24  <andythenorth> maybe I should move the filesystem location of my checkout
21:56:43  <andythenorth> I also rename the file to include version number
21:57:01  <planetmaker> which files? The openttd?
21:57:06  <andythenorth> yep
21:57:06  <planetmaker> why would you do that?
21:57:18  <andythenorth> I'll screenie :)
21:57:45  <planetmaker> ~/ottd/trunk/hg info ;-)
21:57:49  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth I only put my own files in 'my files' folder on desktop and running stuffs in Applications (a bit ironic that thats the default folder for most of them in macos)
21:58:52  <dragonhorseboy> so its generally Power:Desktop:My Files: or Power:Applications: (yeah Power is the computer's name heh)
21:59:05  <andythenorth> planetmaker: how do you keep multiple versions around for testing?
21:59:06  <andythenorth> http://tt-foundry.com/misc/app_versions.png
21:59:40  <planetmaker> omg!
21:59:43  <dragonhorseboy> heh the two ottd folders are actually on that other computer which is the only lone one that can even run windows anyway
22:00:14  <andythenorth> planetmaker: am I missing some obvious organisational tactic?
22:00:22  <dragonhorseboy> otherwise the patch is more local in Power:Applications:Connectix:VPC:main.img
22:00:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't care about that many versions. I have the latest(?) stable somewhere, a somewhat recent trunk and dozens of other versions.
22:00:57  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth interesting to see that you're keeping 0.6.2 there .. how early do you have it? :P
22:00:59  <planetmaker> andythenorth: no, you don't miss it. I just don't have more than one version I usually use :-) - which is the somewhat latest trunk
22:01:07  <planetmaker> everything else is usually uninteresting for me.
22:01:42  <planetmaker> I do have versions of head2head, airports, regions, is2, diverse patched ones...
22:01:45  <andythenorth> planetmaker: how do you test your grfs with older versions?  e.g. when something breaks and you need to know if it's your mistake, or trunk broke?  Or a player bug report?
22:01:51  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: I have back to 0.4
22:01:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't test that ;-)
22:01:57  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth ah ic :)
22:02:15  <planetmaker> I test it with the latest stable rarely even.
22:02:41  <planetmaker> But that's sufficient. If it doesn't work with other versions than current nightly and latest stable, those people shall update
22:02:50  <andythenorth> true
22:03:01  <andythenorth> I probably don't need all those versions.  I just need some....
22:03:37  <planetmaker> maintaining that list while compiling yourself is, of course, more effort.
22:03:50  <andythenorth> anyway, if make would rename and install to a sane location I would be quite a lot happier about compiling
22:03:52  <planetmaker> But... if you do make bundle_dmg you could then do the same. Just move the dmg there.
22:03:58  <dragonhorseboy> well I've only got IS2.1.1 and spcomb-compiled r18869M folders atm
22:04:21  <dragonhorseboy> latter might be going away soon because the computer is due for return eventually
22:04:27  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: somehow I have to get to 5GB OpenTTD stuff ;-)
22:04:54  <dragonhorseboy> heh
22:05:28  <planetmaker> most is actually in my grfdev folder
22:05:30  * andythenorth hopes a mac port maintainer turns up
22:05:48  <planetmaker> and OpenTTD/data
22:05:50  * andythenorth has *no* reproducible issues with any mac version of OpenTTD ever
22:06:16  * andythenorth sees the mac port problem, but wonders how big a problem it really is
22:06:38  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I suppose some of us maintaining a mac nightly build server is out of the question?
22:06:49  <andythenorth> probably more work than compiling anyway
22:07:04  <dragonhorseboy> seeing its not even compactible with mine its probably out of the question to ask me :)
22:07:12  <dragonhorseboy> (just had to say that sorry :P )
22:07:16  <Rubidium> it's not how many bugs *you* encounter, it's how many bugs are encountered and how they are handled
22:07:21  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I wouldn't want to do that. It's not like the compile farm couldn't produce them more. It was just not wanted.
22:07:52  <andythenorth> not wanted is debatable.  it was a fait accompli
22:07:58  <andythenorth> but anyway
22:08:03  <Rubidium> also a few days ago I was 'brave' enough to commit user fixes for OSX and that apparantly broke the OSX builds
22:08:21  <andythenorth> I do see the problem...I'd be moaning a lot more otherwise
22:08:41  <andythenorth> broken nightly is just as useless as no nightly
22:08:58  <planetmaker> the number of bug reports is different ;-)
22:08:59  <Rubidium> actually, the 1.0.0-beta4 doesn't build for OSX
22:09:07  <planetmaker> it doesn't?
22:09:34  <planetmaker> is that the macos.h issue?
22:10:20  <Rubidium> yes
22:11:56  <planetmaker> the CF could have had detected it, I guess ;-)
22:12:34  <Rubidium> yes, but only if it ran between committing the OSX 'fix' and the beta release
22:12:44  <planetmaker> yeah.
22:13:13  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I am planning to only support 0.7.5 for FIRS, FISH and HEQS
22:13:34  <dragonhorseboy> no IS players?
22:13:48  <dragonhorseboy> not going complain tho..server owners seem to always prefer default industries anyway
22:14:07  <andythenorth> I'm not going to put a version check in or anything like that.
22:14:21  <andythenorth> I just won't support what I can't test....same as I don't try and code anything for TTDP
22:14:42  <dragonhorseboy> I only found one single ecs server on 0.7.5 once.. although I guess pbi was used a few times in past is2 maps
22:15:13  <Rubidium> it's just annoying that there are like half a dozen of people saying that they were going to fix stuff, only like 3 of them kinda fixed a bug and of that like half broke other stuff (i.e. it wasn't properly tested)
22:15:25  <planetmaker> Rubidium: also wrt yesterday(?): your reasons for the limited OSX support are fine. It's just very boring and annoying to constantly read again and over how bad obviously the decision to get this machine must have been (which I do object)
22:15:51  <planetmaker> I agree that the current situation is annoying in most respects
22:16:28  <andythenorth> me too
22:16:47  <Rubidium> yesterdays rant wasn't about the machine, it was about people not properly testing their stuff
22:17:09  <planetmaker> well. and about apple. and apple users. and because ;-)
22:17:18  <andythenorth> until a reliable OS X coder turns up (if ever) this is basically irreconcilable, no?
22:17:25  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth a bit amusing contrast.. I'm working for the patch first then ottd compactibility would come afterward that fact. to our own ways I guess ;)
22:17:37  * andythenorth ignores anything about mac users, couldn't give two shits about that silly argument
22:17:53  <dragonhorseboy> (going to be interesting to callbacks-debug it on ottd)
22:18:02  *** GT has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
22:18:34  <planetmaker> at least that's how it came accross on my part
22:18:53  <Rubidium> planetmaker: that might be true
22:19:43  <Rubidium> but please see my point: advertising you support 8bpp drawing and then, because you actually don't support it, cause artefacts in drawing
22:20:39  <planetmaker> I do see the point and the reason :-) I only object to the associated joyful bashing ;-)
22:21:01  <andythenorth> so....0.7.5 does most of what is required for current grfs I develop.
22:21:23  * andythenorth wonders what technical debt is incurred by not keeping up with trunk...from a newgrf point of view, probably not much?
22:21:37  <planetmaker> andythenorth: airports, rail types
22:21:52  <andythenorth> industry airports yes, rail types....don't care
22:22:38  <andythenorth> but newgrf tends to be quite good about not breaking existing grfs
22:22:48  <andythenorth> so I'm not going to end up with fossilised code
22:23:15  <dragonhorseboy> fossilised code? hehe .. as if codes can get old :)
22:23:24  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: shush
22:23:48  <planetmaker> andythenorth: but you might care about road types ;-)
22:23:55  <dragonhorseboy> I know..just humoring you re grfs
22:23:59  <planetmaker> (when / if they will come)
22:24:01  <andythenorth> I would, but it's currently not even vapourware
22:24:02  <Rubidium> and for what it's worth, r19001 compiles fine on the compile farm
22:24:15  <andythenorth> planetmaker: and road types may never be available on a mac
22:24:34  <planetmaker> andythenorth: but you could easily compile...
22:24:36  <dragonhorseboy> road types? hm is that like as in gravel/city.highway road types planetmaker?
22:25:04  <DJNekkid> if anyone might be interested in housemusic, me and somne pals are mixing live ...
22:25:06  <andythenorth> planetmaker: my feeling is that the mac build is likely to degrade significantly over time...to the point where it regularly fails to build
22:25:16  <andythenorth> if not because of trunk, then because of Apple
22:25:42  <planetmaker> dragonhorseboy: yes
22:25:43  <andythenorth> we should probably just invest our time in packaging it with crossover to a double click, easy to maintain bundle
22:25:46  <DJNekkid> http://livestream.com/clublife.no
22:25:52  <DJNekkid> *gone again*
22:25:55  <planetmaker> andythenorth: then it has been doing that the last two years already
22:26:56  <andythenorth> but for the last two years, the compile farm has been churning out regular nightlies, and at least several of us have been using them.  stuff gets found that way
22:27:29  <andythenorth> dunno, we run a buildbot at work.  if we don't maintain the buildbot and fix problems as soon as they come up, eventually we have a big mess of several days work to do
22:27:38  <andythenorth> and sometimes stupid avoidable conflicts to resolve
22:27:43  <planetmaker> yes, but it got not fixed. But if no one uses it anymore, also not people like you, then it's sure to not get noticed nor fixed
22:28:09  *** GT has left #openttdcoop.devzone
22:28:44  <andythenorth> I don't see a solution to this?  Except to jump to a crossover solution and invest in making that easy to use?
22:28:59  <planetmaker> to what?
22:29:08  <Rubidium> andythenorth: but now imagine that the buildbot compile stuff fine because it uses an old version of a compiler and the newer versions don't work, or the resulting binary doesn't work and that doesn't get fixed?
22:29:19  <andythenorth> planetmaker to the inevitable loss of OS X support
22:29:21  <Rubidium> after two years of not fixing stuff, it'll be a mess right?
22:29:33  * andythenorth looks under the table for an OS X developer
22:29:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth: so... you better call it lost now instead of using what's there.
22:29:39  <planetmaker> ?
22:29:44  * andythenorth looks in the cupboard for an OS X developer
22:31:05  * andythenorth didn't find an OS X developer :D
22:31:25  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth another FIRS idea question if you mind.. you want leave water at plant>tower alone or can I make a second input industry suggestion? :)
22:31:33  <planetmaker> andythenorth: when it won't work, it's still time to switch. Why now?
22:31:40  <andythenorth> planning ahead...
22:32:02  <planetmaker> you know that there hasn't been any active OSX developer for 2 years?
22:32:03  <Rubidium> for the record: I'm not such a big fan of Windows either, yet because I can run it virtualised I can, fix most of the issues with it; I actually almost rewritten its installer
22:32:37  <Rubidium> with OS X there is no such option, or at least there wasn't one 18 months ago
22:33:03  <planetmaker> Yeah... that's the true pain IMO
22:33:04  * andythenorth tries OpenTTD in crossover again.
22:33:09  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth either way, its the greenhouse.. I know they probably pipe in their own water but if you have one located well outside any towns they might be happy to have water bought in for them
22:33:28  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: I told you...no more answers until you have a forum thread ;)
22:33:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's honestly stupid.
22:33:32  <DJNekkid> ehm, remove the last . (dot) in that link...
22:33:47  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth tell that to the forum computer..its still not returning any passwords
22:34:16  <dragonhorseboy> djnekkid heh and I was wondering why I couldn't try listen to it
22:35:19  <andythenorth> planetmaker: other than the filesystem for save/load utterly sucks, the Crossover solution is pretty good and simple
22:35:45  <andythenorth> performance does suck a bit sometimes
22:36:08  <planetmaker> so you use a known severe bug, sucky performance than using something which - according to your own words - never posed problems?
22:36:22  <planetmaker> doesn't sound like a sensible decision
22:36:57  <andythenorth> scrolling is a bit jittery, and the cursor sucks.  hmmm....it's not as good as I remember from my last test
22:37:32  <Rubidium> andythenorth: might the last test have been on OSX 10.4?
22:37:51  <andythenorth> no, always 10.5
22:37:54  <Webster> Latest update from devactivity: World Airliners Set - Revision 594: Added Mexicana A320, Lufthansa A319 <http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/worldairlineset/repository/revisions/594>
22:38:46  <planetmaker> anyway... off for the night and weekend. Have a good one all of you :-)
22:39:01  <dragonhorseboy> bye planetmaker
22:39:27  <andythenorth> hmm crossover uses 40% cpu compared to 20% for native Openttd
22:40:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: have a good weekend :)
22:43:21  <dragonhorseboy> hmm...are beers always refrigerated?
22:43:27  <andythenorth> no
22:43:41  <andythenorth> dragonhorseboy: no forum login yet :P
22:43:45  <andythenorth> ?
22:44:27  <dragonhorseboy> duh thought so ty.. *goes back to notes* (and andythenorth I've send a second request a few minutes ago in case the first one was a glitch)
22:46:46  <Rubidium> reading back the logs I found that there were times where at least 2 OpenTTD developers and 2 'external' developers worked simultaniously on the OS X port. Where are they now?
22:47:05  <andythenorth> certainly not under my kitchen table....I just looked ;)
22:49:06  <Rubidium> :(
22:49:22  <andythenorth> :( exactly
22:49:38  <Rubidium> it almost looks as if we lost all OS X developers since Apple went to Intel and started dropping PPC
22:50:19  <andythenorth> strange, co-incides with the mac platform getting a lot better
22:50:43  * dragonhorseboy stopped being interested after the G4's were gone amusingly enough
22:51:01  * andythenorth stays out of a cpu holy war :)
22:51:22  <dragonhorseboy> andythenorth lol I'm not up for any wars..I just use the cpus I like and its that.. simple as it :)
22:51:50  <dragonhorseboy> or like many calm headed people had said .. comparing apple to orange just isn't right
22:53:00  <dragonhorseboy> people seem to be arguing too much about microsoft not wanting to port windows to ARM tho .. and they're the same people that suggest notebooks should be only using ARMs as well
22:53:05  <dragonhorseboy> I just ignore them all
22:53:33  <Rubidium> who remembers the good old days that MS supported multiple architectures
22:53:54  <dragonhorseboy> 3-8 hours battery life on a laptop (x86 and ppc alike) is more than good enough for me ;)
22:54:21  <dragonhorseboy> rubidium I haven't been there but I do know of that NT4 had some powerpc hardware support tho (although they were not the mac kinds tho)
22:54:56  <Rubidium> and Alpha and MIPS :)
22:55:07  <dragonhorseboy> I actually saw a 'for sale' ad for one such ppc powered midtower system once. "NT4 Compactible" was silked onto the board itself heh
22:55:24  <dragonhorseboy> alphas... is that like as in DEC computers?
22:55:53  <dragonhorseboy> I never knew microsoft was after MIPS before tho
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23:03:06  <dragonhorseboy> hmm I guess something's not right in the forum records or something...still no pwd returned
23:06:18  <dragonhorseboy> rubidium little joke for you: what supports every single known architectures out there? humans!
23:06:22  <dragonhorseboy> not sure if thats a bad joke heh
23:07:19  <Rubidium> actually, I doubt that... until proven that there is no other intelligence
23:07:37  <dragonhorseboy> ok :)
23:14:36  <GT> And for sure lots of humans are not platform independant, easier to prove than that something not very well defined is not there in a pretty large universe
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