Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 2nd July 2010:
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00:04:30  *** KenjiE20 has quit IRC
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05:47:28  <Brot6> OpenTTD-GUI - Revision 15417:51999adaf273: First version of a lean main menu (planetmaker) @
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06:40:05  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 523:d4554eb2bb58: Doc: Add internal links to cargo classes (planetmaker) @
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09:27:12  <Brot6> #openttdcoop - Feature #1053 (New): OpenTTD Patch Queue (Ammler) @
09:35:07  <Brot6> repository /home/ottdc/hg-repos/test-mq registered in Redmine with url /home/ottdc/hg-repos/test-mq
09:35:07  <Brot6> repository /home/ottdc/hg-repos/test-mq created
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10:49:07  <Alberth> oi!
10:50:35  <planetmaker> ho :-)
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10:56:16  <Ammler> planetmaker: help me with #1053 :-P
10:57:05  <planetmaker> :-)
10:57:53  <Ammler> maybe creating a file in .devzone: mqof
10:59:22  <Ammler> then we clone the repo mqof, go to the repo and run "hg qinit && hg init .hg/patches"
10:59:30  <Ammler> oh no
10:59:52  <Ammler> we symlink the repo to .hg/patches of the main repo
11:02:00  <Ammler> does hg qinit more than just creating the folder .hg/patches?
11:03:50  <Alberth> in my hg, the command is deprecated
11:05:35  <Ammler> hg init --mq
11:06:21  <Ammler> I see
11:06:33  <Alberth> simply using qnew also works
11:06:37  <Ammler> hg init --mq does a bit more than just create the folder
11:07:37  <Alberth> creating the status and series files, no doubt
11:08:19  <Ammler> unversioned mq doesn't make much sense for the DevZone
11:08:32  <Alberth> :)
11:09:00  <Alberth> I don't use versioned queues, too confusing :p
11:09:19  <Ammler> :-)
11:10:01  <Ammler> I really have troubles to automate it on the DevZone
11:10:30  <Ammler> since I want it working without ssh
11:12:14  <Alberth> I am not sure you'd ever want to share such a queue
11:13:19  <Ammler> yes, we do
11:13:25  <Alberth> ie 2 people hacking in a sequence of patches, and not getting conflicts?
11:13:49  <Alberth> but perhaps it depends on the project data
11:13:51  <Ammler> why should that more conflict than hacking on same repo?
11:14:07  <Ammler> repo branch*
11:14:35  <Ammler> one patch is like a branch
11:14:36  <Alberth> my patches in a queue usually all make changes to the same files
11:15:19  <Alberth> ie it is a small change in a series to get a feature in
11:15:30  <Ammler> bitbucket does support mq too
14:00:57  <planetmaker> <-- any idea, Ammler
14:03:24  <Ammler> planetmaker:
14:04:06  <Ammler> I'll check the logs
14:04:30  <Brot6> test: abort: push creates new remote heads on branch 'default'!
14:18:10  <Ammler> fixed
14:18:18  <Ammler> (and reported)
14:18:26  <Ammler> planetmaker: ^
14:18:36  <planetmaker> and reported?
14:18:55  <Ammler> at
14:19:15  <Ammler> well, it is a bug of the redmine-mq we use
14:19:54  <Ammler>
14:19:57  <Webster> Title: Redmine - Patch #4455: Mercurial overhaul - Redmine (at
14:20:37  <planetmaker> ah, ok :-)
14:21:20  <Ammler> my Akregator doesn't work anymore :-(
14:21:43  <Ammler> I guess, I should update to KDE 4.5
14:21:56  <Ammler> or 4.4
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15:49:04  <Brot6> mode change on /home/ottdc/hg-repos/test-mq
16:18:49  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: update from r104 to r106 done -
16:19:34  <Brot6> nml: update from r522 to r523 done -
16:20:32  <Brot6> swedishrails: update from r118 to r123 done -
16:20:34  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r559), 32bpp-extra (r36), airportsplus (r50), bros (r12), comic-houses (r70), firs (r1011), fish (r375), heqs (r320), nmts (r16), nutracks (r79), ogfxplus (r32), opengfx (r461), openmsx (r78), opensfx (r94), snowlinemod (r12), worldairlinersset (r648)
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17:29:51  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 524:ca7da79340ad: Codechange: Format the NFO header to a somewhat... (Alberth) @
17:41:00  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1054 (New): Incomplete cargo chains prior to certain dates -... (andythenorth) @
17:41:00  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1055 (New): Strange availability date behaviour (andythenorth) @
17:41:00  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1056 (New): Input cargo discarded for low input values (andythenorth) @
17:43:08  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1057 (New): Some industries shouldn't be built above snowline (andythenorth) @
17:43:08  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Bug #1058 (New): Aluminium Plant - restore snow (andythenorth) @
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17:47:56  <FooBar_> Hi all!
17:48:09  <Alberth> andythenorth: ^^
17:48:15  <Alberth> FooBar_: hi!
17:48:45  <planetmaker> FooBar!
17:49:03  <FooBar_> Let me announce that I'm officially returning to developing newgrfs again. At least for this summer (after that we'll see...)
17:49:11  <planetmaker> :-)
17:49:46  <Brot6> OpenTTD-GUI - Revision 15418:83be00935f99: - Codechange: Increase length for revision string to 2... (planetmaker) @
17:49:46  <Brot6> OpenTTD-GUI - Revision 15419:23e8be4f117c: - Change: Move difficulty settings to the advanced set... (planetmaker) @
17:52:17  <andythenorth> Hi FooBar_
17:52:19  <andythenorth> :P
17:52:27  <FooBar_> hi andy
17:52:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth: became quite a newgrf wizard, FooBar_ :-)
17:53:01  <andythenorth> planetmaker became a nml speed-demon
17:53:15  <andythenorth> what shall we make?
17:53:18  <FooBar_> I know, I checked some bits of FIRS source recently and was stunned
17:53:23  <planetmaker> :-)
17:53:42  <andythenorth> I worry I'm the only one who will ever understand it :P
17:53:46  <andythenorth> especially the production code
17:54:01  <FooBar_> yes, I didn't look into that part :P
17:54:09  <andythenorth> Shall we make something now?
17:54:46  <planetmaker> Well... there's some things which would good IMHO: more FIRS. a re-vamp of TBRS come to my mind first
17:54:50  <FooBar_> What do we want to make? I have this make thingy sitting here, maybe I should see if that still works first :P
17:55:08  <planetmaker> FooBar_: if you pull... it should
17:55:12  <andythenorth> maybe check you have up to date FIRS and can build?
17:55:26  <FooBar_> I wouldn't go into bridges as long as there's no "newbridges" support...
17:55:59  <andythenorth> I would really like to get to FIRS 1.0 and have a break :)
17:56:06  <FooBar_> I was thinking maybe there are some FIRS industries that need slicing and all, maybe I can start there to get the hang of it again
17:56:21  <andythenorth> FooBar_: let me see
17:56:34  <Ammler> FB!
17:56:42  <Ammler> :-)
17:56:48  <FooBar_> Ammler!
17:57:01  <FooBar_> yes, I know, long time no see :P
17:57:18  <Ammler> hehe, shall we reactivate your bouncer account?
17:57:27  <andythenorth> FooBar_: everything currently drawn is sliced
17:57:51  <andythenorth> I can think of three nice sub-projects....
17:58:05  <Ammler> FooBar_: it will be nice to have windows newgrf dev back
17:58:08  <FooBar_> Ammler: maybe later, but thanks for the offer
17:58:15  <andythenorth> (1) sort out parameters as per
17:58:22  <andythenorth> (2) start adding animation
17:58:36  <andythenorth> including restoring default animations currently missing
17:58:41  <andythenorth> (3) construction states
17:58:54  <Ammler> FooBar_: maybe you like also to take a look on nml
17:59:01  <FooBar_> construction stages probably need to be dranw first, right?
17:59:14  <andythenorth> yes and no
17:59:20  <andythenorth> they could be coded with generic tiles
18:00:11  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 525:4ea8d402b504: Codechange: Introduce NML output wrapper class. (Alberth) @
18:00:13  <Ammler> we already talked about moving opengfx to nml, as grfcodec gets outdated/unworking
18:00:14  <FooBar_> Ammler: I want to redo my transrapid set anyways, and was thinking of looking into nml for that
18:00:45  * andythenorth is thinking of moving FISH to nml
18:00:48  <FooBar_> andythenorth: we have generic tiles for that?
18:00:49  <planetmaker> You could basically copy the SERails code for that, FooBar_
18:00:59  <planetmaker> Just use different sprites...
18:01:04  <andythenorth> FooBar_: no but we can change the action 1 later
18:01:07  <FooBar_> planetmaker: thanks, but I don't learn by copying :P
18:01:13  <planetmaker> It's... *mostly* simple
18:01:14  <Ammler> hehe
18:01:24  <andythenorth> hmm
18:01:27  <planetmaker> FooBar_: depends upon how you define 'copying' ;-)
18:01:31  <andythenorth> other nice FIRS tasks I can think of....
18:01:40  <andythenorth> building some industries on slopes
18:01:45  <FooBar_> planetmaker: ctrl+c followed by ctrl+v ;)
18:01:55  <Ammler> hg clone :-P
18:01:57  <planetmaker> but... I actually would like to see you part in FIRS (again), too
18:02:01  <andythenorth> industries on slopes would include forest, some farms
18:02:13  * andythenorth would like some help with FIRS, it's getting overwhelming 
18:02:17  <FooBar_> Industries on slopes would be good, as that actually improves gameplay considerably
18:02:20  <planetmaker> For two reasons: a) it'll make andy happy and b) it'll help the set get along faster :-)
18:02:31  <andythenorth> and Kogut will stop asking for it :P
18:02:41  <andythenorth> Kogut's feedback is generally on the nail, if a bit strange
18:03:07  <andythenorth> There are also a bunch of design issues I haven't been able to figure out
18:03:13  <andythenorth> - farms above snowline
18:03:20  <andythenorth> other industries above snowline
18:03:31  <andythenorth> production code for fishing harbour
18:04:09  <andythenorth> changing fruit plantation appearance to suit climate
18:04:40  <FooBar_> Slownine needs some action2 stuff in the placement code I believe
18:05:04  <andythenorth> It's more a question of 'should it be allowed or not'?
18:05:21  <andythenorth> I thought about it for ages and decided I don't really care either way
18:05:33  <andythenorth> but changing snowline makes it more complicated
18:05:41  <planetmaker> andythenorth: farms: depends. animal farms: yes. arrable farms: no
18:05:46  <planetmaker> other industries: yes
18:05:48  <andythenorth> good answer
18:06:03  <andythenorth> so I build an arable farm below summer snowline.  What happens in winter?
18:06:03  <FooBar_> I think it shouldn't be allowed to build one above the snowline, but that the variable snow line should be supported, e.g. 0 production if snow
18:06:19  <andythenorth> but farms have grain silos...
18:06:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth: that's a good question. You can go the easy way and just have it continue to produce
18:06:35  <andythenorth> preferred route
18:06:35  <planetmaker> Or you can do it as ECS and stop
18:06:40  <planetmaker> I find the latter a bit annoying
18:06:42  <andythenorth> not preferred
18:06:47  <planetmaker> yup
18:06:57  <andythenorth> can cause loss of secondary industry
18:07:02  <FooBar_> We need a moose farm for above the snow line
18:07:02  <andythenorth> in rare cases
18:07:45  <andythenorth> so for a location in between high and low snowline...I can construct farm in Summer, but not Winter?
18:08:19  <FooBar_> yes, because it isn't useful to construct something that cannot produce at that moment
18:08:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: a variable snow line is not exposed to newgrfs
18:08:37  <andythenorth> no
18:08:39  <planetmaker> so you can query the snowline height and that's it
18:08:41  <FooBar_> but then I guess you're right about the 0 production
18:08:42  <andythenorth> yup
18:09:07  <andythenorth> so I get production from the farm above snowline, but I can't build it?
18:09:18  <planetmaker> neither
18:09:26  <planetmaker> the snow line is a fixed thing.
18:09:30  <Alberth> andythenorth: OpenTTD verifies site of farm as 2 tiles below highest snowline
18:09:39  <planetmaker> only the visible snow line is a changing thing
18:10:19  <FooBar_> Maybe we should stick to the 2 tiles below highest snow line and just don't care about production in winter
18:10:20  <Alberth> at least for default industry :)
18:10:20  <andythenorth> so we prevent farms above permanent snowline, allow below
18:10:27  <andythenorth> FooBar_: what you just said
18:10:35  <FooBar_> good, then that's settled
18:10:38  <andythenorth> "go, code that" :P
18:10:50  <andythenorth> there are hooks for cb28 (placement) in clustering already
18:10:57  <FooBar_> "I'm not coding anything today" ;)
18:11:02  <andythenorth> boo
18:11:15  <planetmaker> <-- at least that's how I understood this so far.
18:11:20  <FooBar_> it's like 34 degrees centigrade here, that's not coding weather
18:11:21  <planetmaker> Maybe, hopefully I'm wrong
18:11:55  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I actually hope you're right
18:11:58  <andythenorth> simpler
18:12:00  <planetmaker> [20:10]	<andythenorth>	so we prevent farms above permanent snowline, allow below <-- sounds like where European farms are anyway
18:12:11  <andythenorth> I suspect I'm limited to checking only current state of tile
18:12:19  <FooBar_> I suppose we cannot provide snowed-over fields?
18:12:28  <andythenorth> FooBar_: strange you should mention that
18:12:31  <Alberth> I happened to reject issue FS#3888 about that issue a few days ago
18:12:31  <planetmaker> :-)
18:12:37  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
18:12:37  <Webster> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttdcoop.devzone 5 days, 19 hours, 46 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <frosch123> count again :)
18:12:59  <planetmaker> Alberth: about snowy fields?
18:13:12  <Alberth> building of farms below snowline
18:13:18  <FooBar_> andythenorth: not strange, I know you suggested the arbitrary tiles thing way back
18:13:36  <andythenorth> frosch is working on something
18:13:50  <FooBar_> sweet
18:14:02  <Alberth> andythenorth: he was here, but left 1.5 hours ago
18:14:10  <planetmaker> oh, I read...
18:14:14  <andythenorth> when I say 'working' I mean he started a patch
18:14:23  <andythenorth> which works to a great extent, but has some problems
18:15:22  <andythenorth> FooBar_:
18:15:32  <planetmaker> I wouldn't entirely hold my breath for it, though I indeed would like to see something like that :-)
18:15:47  <FooBar_> I like the title "new farmtiles or so"
18:16:51  <andythenorth> Farms in desert I have no problem with.  Some players do though
18:18:39  <andythenorth> I reckon provide a water pump tile and everything is ok
18:20:14  <FooBar_> Farms in desert are fine. Do we have water? Maybe they should accept water then as a production booster
18:20:40  <andythenorth> I wondered that
18:20:57  <andythenorth> It's a boring cargo though :)
18:21:09  <andythenorth> no-one trucks water into a farm in a sane world
18:21:22  * andythenorth thinks 'canals' could equal irrigation
18:21:51  * andythenorth invents a new boat labelled "right to extract 100k litres of water"
18:21:58  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1059 (New): Farm snowline dependency (andythenorth) @
18:22:05  <FooBar_> I guess you're right
18:22:10  <andythenorth> it's invisible and travels by water.  when it arrives, you get 100k litres of water :o
18:22:30  <andythenorth> Think it might be a step too far :)
18:23:19  <FooBar_> Well, if it needs water to arrive, you already have water...
18:24:10  <andythenorth> make farms locate near water...player has to build canals / channels?
18:24:15  <andythenorth> (not a serious suggestion)
18:24:31  <FooBar_> maybe not serious, but I was thinking the same
18:24:57  <FooBar_> Don't know if a canal qualifies as water for the industry placement code
18:25:20  <andythenorth> we can seek neighbouring tiles and check their type
18:25:32  <andythenorth> could be quite intensive
18:26:13  <FooBar_> Maybe check if farm is built in desert and if so, provide a small oasis as industry tiles with it.
18:26:34  <andythenorth> that sort of thing seems the best solution for gameplay
18:27:03  <andythenorth> hmm
18:27:04  <planetmaker> [20:24]	<andythenorth>	make farms locate near water...player has to build canals / channels? <-- nah, not really
18:27:09  <andythenorth> nah
18:27:10  <planetmaker> There's no reasonable scale in TTD
18:27:12  <andythenorth> not really
18:27:22  * andythenorth ponders fishing harbour code
18:27:36  <andythenorth> several issues....
18:28:02  <andythenorth> (1) fishing harbour is really a primary industry and should produce something irrespective of input
18:28:13  <andythenorth> (2) fishing harbour produces food, and locates in towns
18:28:23  <andythenorth> so we have a primary industry right where the demand is
18:28:30  <andythenorth> barely any transport requirements
18:28:45  <FooBar_> let me see our cargo list...
18:29:15  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 526:55d627db357f: Codechange: Handle nml output files also with t... (Alberth) @
18:29:27  <andythenorth>
18:29:28  <Webster> Title: TT Foundry: Pixel Creations for OpenTTD (at
18:29:56  <FooBar_> thanks, but I already found that myself :P
18:30:04  <FooBar_> I know where it is, you know ;)
18:30:12  <andythenorth> :)
18:30:31  <FooBar_> It appears fish isn't used any more?
18:31:21  <FooBar_> Simplest solution to me is to just locate the fishing harbour outside of a town
18:31:44  <FooBar_> Although that isn't entirely realistic...
18:31:47  <andythenorth> that is one solution
18:31:54  <andythenorth> it looks fricking awesome in town though :)
18:32:07  <Alberth> inside a town prevents use of a train :p
18:32:20  <andythenorth> good
18:32:28  <Alberth> so you are forced to use trucks and drive to another town first ?
18:33:00  <Alberth> or at least to the other side of the town :p
18:33:04  <andythenorth> at least
18:33:08  <andythenorth> or supply inland towns
18:35:00  <FooBar_> maybe reintroduce the fishing grounds and get ships to transport fish from the grounds to the harbour. At least that's how it seems to be done on deadliest catch...
18:35:25  <andythenorth> that's what I thought, but it became a holy war :P
18:35:30  <FooBar_> then the fishing harbour produces food and it's up to the player if it wants to transport this over short or long distance
18:35:37  <welshdragon> PeterT: what version does Simulation Nation server use?
18:36:06  <FooBar_> andy, I think we can win that war ;)
18:36:26  <Alberth> welshdragon: he doesn't have an own channel for that kind of questions?
18:36:28  <FooBar_> Especially if we're doing these economies
18:36:41  <andythenorth> I want to restore the Fish cargo and transport it to the Harbour which processes it
18:36:49  <andythenorth> then I don't have to draw a processor :)
18:36:54  <FooBar_> Then we can just create an economy that /we/ like
18:37:14  <FooBar_> see, added benefits!
18:37:23  <andythenorth> I can see one weird thing
18:37:38  <andythenorth> I could drop off fish at a dock and move it by train to a harbour
18:37:46  <welshdragon> Alberth: i don't know
18:37:47  <andythenorth> which is rather like 'coals to newcastle'
18:37:54  <welshdragon> and here seemed the best channel to ask
18:38:03  <welshdragon> as it's OpenTTD related
18:38:54  <FooBar_> yes, that's possible, but it's up to the player not to do that. I sometimes put a train station on some artificial land right next to an oil rig, just because it's convenient
18:38:59  <andythenorth> ignoring the strange transport possibility....Fishing Harbour could then accept MNSP only
18:39:08  <andythenorth> it would become a secondary industry
18:39:11  <FooBar_> true
18:39:19  <andythenorth> which is fine
18:39:35  <andythenorth> I don't like 'Food' getting produced directly by a primary industry
18:39:58  <andythenorth> I've been unhappy with the concept even though the graphics rock.  That's why it's not in the releases
18:40:11  <andythenorth> It was a *lot* of code as well :P
18:40:14  <FooBar_> me neither, and I like the idea of fishing ground. It makes using ships also more interesting gameplay
18:40:15  * Alberth ponders how #openttdcoop.devzone is OpenTTD related :)
18:40:44  <andythenorth> FooBar_: we have 3 or 4 free slots, so Fish could be restored
18:41:04  <FooBar_> Alberth: you can't say it's unrelated either. If there wasn't something like OpenTTD, this channel wouldn't be either...
18:41:22  <FooBar_> andythenorth: I'm in favour of fish
18:41:29  <FooBar_> what's that... favourish?
18:41:45  <andythenorth> Do Fishing Grounds accept anything?
18:41:51  <Alberth> FooBar_: true
18:41:56  <Alberth> food :p
18:42:00  <andythenorth> There are two ways to do Fishing Grounds
18:42:07  <Alberth> fish food, to be precise ;)
18:42:08  <FooBar_> Alberth: I was about to say that...
18:42:09  <andythenorth> (1) it's just a place at sea and ships go there to load
18:42:26  <andythenorth> (2) it's other boats, and the player is running the transfer boats
18:42:32  <andythenorth> (this happens in some fisheries)
18:43:21  <FooBar_> I'm in favour of (1).
18:44:07  <FooBar_> It also should move around a lot, but I don't know if that makes for fun gameplay, having to readjust orders every time...
18:44:54  <andythenorth> what, have it close often? :P
18:45:00  <andythenorth> maybe not :)
18:45:21  <andythenorth> if we had a state machine for the station....
18:45:23  <FooBar_> it would be realistic, but not fun
18:45:57  <FooBar_> well, the state machine would be fun, not the closing
18:47:12  <andythenorth> state machines might come one day
18:47:16  * andythenorth waves at Yexo 
18:47:54  <FooBar_> the state machine would actually be awesome, have the ship follow a string of pots...
18:48:00  <planetmaker> [20:44]	<FooBar_>	It also should move around a lot, but I don't know if that makes for fun gameplay, having to readjust orders every time... <-- that'd be a pain
18:48:20  <planetmaker> but you could use a BIG industry with many water tiles and some animation that fish appear here and there
18:48:33  <planetmaker> it could even be separated tiles so that ships can actually drive through
18:48:35  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it would block ship routes and thus annoy players
18:48:40  <andythenorth> or maybe not
18:48:41  <FooBar_> sometimes realisticness isn't the way to go. Ask belugas...
18:48:41  <planetmaker> :-)
18:49:12  <planetmaker> not realistic. But like four 2x2 things with a + in between for crossing
18:49:16  <andythenorth> FooBar_: I'll add a ticket for 'restore fishing grounds'
18:49:19  <planetmaker> harbour is in the middle for boats
18:49:25  * andythenorth is glad to have a collaborator
18:49:29  <planetmaker> "harbour"
18:49:36  <FooBar_> I think there can be some ship routes through the industry, like we have these holes in land based industries as well
18:50:06  <FooBar_> colharbourator?
18:52:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1060 (New): Restore Fishing Grounds industry (andythenorth) @
18:52:05  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1061 (New): Restore Fish cargo (andythenorth) @
18:52:08  <FooBar_> why do we have 4 pages of issues and 90% of them with priority 'normal'? I don't know where to look first :P
18:52:29  <andythenorth> I never bother prioritising much
18:52:42  <andythenorth> I just run a backlog, and then pull in what's interesting / essential
18:52:53  <andythenorth> (and 'essential' mostly means 'interesting')
18:53:10  <andythenorth> it's how we run scrum iterations for work
18:53:18  <andythenorth> except for the client requirements :P
18:53:38  <andythenorth> they dictate 'interesting' in the work scenario
18:53:42  <Alberth> FooBar_: just pick the first interesting one :)
18:53:45  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1062 (New): Change Fishing Harbour to secondary industry (andythenorth) @
18:54:18  <andythenorth> FooBar_: I need to add some to the 0.3 release
18:54:19  <andythenorth>
18:54:32  <andythenorth> My priority is parameters, for which I need planetmaker :)
18:54:48  <andythenorth> we could work on a 0.3 and 0.4 release concurrently
18:55:09  <andythenorth> I want to get 0.3 done fast, and have it be 100% save game safe with 0.2
18:55:41  <andythenorth> maybe 0.3 should be a branch?
18:55:56  <planetmaker> :-) could be
18:56:00  <andythenorth> or 0.4
18:56:06  <planetmaker> 0.3 rather
18:56:08  <andythenorth> I'm no good at deciding VCS issues
18:56:14  <planetmaker> you want the trunk to be not the branch
18:56:15  <FooBar_> I wouldn't do branching. Merging is annoying if you ask me
18:56:40  <andythenorth> the parameter stuff will be very self-contained, should be possible to merge
18:56:49  <andythenorth> kind of depends how soon planetmaker can help with it :)
18:56:57  <planetmaker> well. Where's the parameter issue?
18:57:07  <andythenorth>
18:57:14  <planetmaker> thanks
18:57:17  * planetmaker reads
18:57:33  <andythenorth> planetmaker: it needs a fair bit of varaction 2 support in templates, but it's not complex
18:57:46  <andythenorth> just a lot of branching
18:58:01  <planetmaker> hm, yes
18:58:15  <planetmaker> Do the industries already use the parameters in their varaction2?
18:58:23  <andythenorth> in certain cases
18:58:26  <FooBar_> If you would excuse me, I have to get my notebook's power cord...
18:58:30  <planetmaker> ok
18:58:38  <andythenorth> Debug parameter is used by some templates for example
18:59:36  <andythenorth> some templates will need appropriate closure cbs adding
18:59:43  <andythenorth> we can probably template some of it
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19:01:14  <andythenorth> ^ :o
19:01:36  <FooBar_> he probably forgot his power cord...
19:01:49  <andythenorth> :)
19:07:11  *** planetmaker has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
19:07:19  <planetmaker> hm... I did leave? :S
19:07:42  <FooBar_> yes, so it seems
19:09:24  <planetmaker> oh well...
19:10:47  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Revision 527:eff4fc938a52: Fix [#1041]: Open output files after parsing in... (Alberth) @
19:12:03  <planetmaker> andythenorth: is the *supply_limit parameter still used?
19:12:12  <andythenorth> nope
19:12:14  <andythenorth> no limits
19:12:23  <andythenorth> there's a ticket to remove any cruft for it
19:12:23  <Alberth> hmm, redmine does not close the issue :(
19:12:27  <andythenorth> somewhere
19:12:37  <planetmaker> ok, so there's kinda... old code with parameters
19:15:00  <andythenorth> do you fancy eliminating it?  I thought I'd killed most of it maybe I missed some
19:17:39  * andythenorth afk
19:19:36  <Brot6> NewGRF Meta Language - Bug #1041 (Closed): open output file after parsing input (Alberth) @
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19:29:24  <FooBar_> is it me or is the makefile much slower than it used to be?
19:31:02  <FooBar_> and my grep doesn't have a --o option
19:31:12  <Ammler> hmm
19:31:31  <FooBar_> I wonder when it will stop giving me that warning...
19:31:32  <Ammler> you might consider to switch to cygwin
19:32:27  <FooBar_> I'll see if there's an upgrade for whatever is providing my grep first
19:32:49  <Ammler> mingw seems to be quite acient
19:33:06  <FooBar_> msys is providing grep here
19:33:18  <Rubidium> guess it depends on the version
19:33:32  <Rubidium> <- might do the right thing (tm)
19:33:33  <Webster> Title: Luna C/C++ (at
19:34:03  <Rubidium> although, it's still using a quite old version of msys... at least you've got a more recent version of GCC
19:34:26  <andythenorth> FooBar_: FIRS make file got *much* slower and then quite a lot faster :)
19:35:19  <Alberth> disk cache?
19:35:20  <FooBar_> Rubidium: it says it includes msys 1.0.11; that's what I have installed now so I suppose it's the same grep...
19:36:15  <Rubidium> then try msys 1.0.14-ish? Or just the newer grep from the msys/mingw sf page
19:39:32  <FooBar_> Great, they make stuff for Windows and then use some exotic lzma compression...
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19:39:48  <Rubidium> yeah
19:40:03  <Rubidium> it's one big huge mess; I'm happy I found lunac
19:40:12  <FooBar_> ah, 7-zip understands that...
19:40:31  <Alberth> another exotic format :p
19:40:33  <Ammler> that is main format of 7zip, afaik
19:41:58  <Alberth> Ammler: r527 did not close issue #1041, is that correct?
19:42:34  <FooBar_> great, now I'm missing a msys-intl-8.dll...
19:42:43  <Ammler> Alberth: yes, you need the close keywords for that
19:42:59  <Ammler> without [], it would happen automatically
19:43:13  <FooBar_> Ammler: the guide says different
19:43:26  <Ammler> FooBar_: about?
19:43:43  <Alberth>  says otherwise indeed
19:43:56  <FooBar_> yes, that one
19:43:59  <Ammler> Fix [#000] doesn't close
19:44:03  <Ammler> but Fix #000 does
19:44:22  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
19:44:23  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - OpenTTD Needs a new name (at
19:44:59  * Alberth removes the [ ] things from the page
19:45:01  <Ammler> maybe it would work, if we change the keywords to ,fix [,
19:45:37  <Alberth> fine by me, as long as the wiki text and reality match
19:45:54  <Ammler> we tried to make it similar to openttd
19:46:01  <Ammler> but then autoclose wouldn't work
19:46:27  <Ammler> IMO, we could mention tickets without [] and revisions with ()
19:46:30  <Alberth> I can simply add "(closes #xyz)" at the end of the message
19:46:37  <Ammler> yes
19:46:45  <Ammler> another possibility
19:48:30  <Ammler> you should just agree in the projects
19:48:50  <Ammler> [21:44] * Alberth removes the [ ] things from the page <-- fine with me :-)
19:49:16  <Alberth> at least the wiki then matches reality :)
19:49:35  <Ammler> I just added those :-)
19:49:46  <Ammler> seems the wiki doesn't have a revert :-)
19:50:11  <Alberth> why did you add them?
19:50:45  <Alberth> ie it is fine to add them for linking/referencing, but not in the section about auto-close imho
19:51:09  <Alberth> since that does not work :p
19:51:14  <Ammler> reverted
19:51:21  <Alberth> nice, thanks
19:51:25  <Ammler> well, you should use it either always or never
19:53:07  <Alberth> having a cross-reference is always good, auto-close is not that needed imho. But let's wait until Yexo decides :)
19:53:53  <Yexo> about what do I have to decide?
19:55:35  <Alberth> commit messages style,   "Fix [#XYZ]: foo" does not auto-close the issue
19:55:51  <Yexo> about the commit messages? I don't really care, I've used "Fix (closes #000): foo" in the past to autoclose a few issues
19:55:58  <Yexo> but I've also forgot it a few times
19:56:14  <Alberth> so we could do "Fix #XYZ: ..."  or  ....(closes #XYZ)
19:56:26  <Yexo> "Fix #00 (r123): foo" is fine with me
19:56:37  <Yexo> where both #00 and r123 are optional
19:56:59  <Alberth> Ammler: our leader has spoken :p
19:57:08  <Ammler> so it is fine as it is
19:57:22  <Alberth> is Fix #xyz accepted?
19:57:31  <Ammler> we just would need to fix the hook
19:57:39  <Ammler> currently it doesn't work at all :-P
19:58:38  <planetmaker> [21:44]	<andythenorth>	planetmaker: <-- :-) nice
19:58:39  <Webster> Title: Transport Tycoon Forums • View topic - OpenTTD Needs a new name (at
19:59:00  <planetmaker> but actually... maybe the landscape buttons should be kept. And if it's only for the sake of tradition ;-)
19:59:15  <andythenorth> they should be kept.
19:59:31  <planetmaker> Can I get a mockup with them, please? :-)
19:59:43  <planetmaker> Dunno... maybe as top line above what you showed there?
19:59:58  <Alberth> good night
20:00:03  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ok
20:00:08  <andythenorth> maybe tonight, maybe tomorrow
20:00:09  <planetmaker> g'night Alberth
20:00:22  <Yexo> night Alberth
20:00:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: well... basically I need some good way to arange things.
20:00:28  <planetmaker> I'm not sure how so far
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20:00:38  <planetmaker> The actual screenshot I posted looks IMHO ugly
20:00:41  <planetmaker> ugly like hell
20:01:19  <planetmaker> yours is already a lot better. But it looks... unfinished
20:01:19  <Rubidium>
20:01:36  <planetmaker> :-)
20:01:55  <planetmaker> Looks good :-)
20:02:01  <Rubidium> it "only" needs some string updates
20:02:14  <planetmaker> hm... tooltips?
20:02:27  <Rubidium> yep
20:02:42  <planetmaker> hm... still 28°C in my flat. Same as on balcony :S
20:02:53  <Rubidium> which is where I can't be bothered to look at
20:03:16  <planetmaker> :-) So... that's a thinly veiled request to do that? :-)
20:03:34  <Rubidium> nope
20:03:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'll work something up.  Probably not going to draw tonight
20:03:38  <andythenorth> had 4 hours sleep
20:04:21  <andythenorth> GUI design needs a brain that works :)
20:04:22  <planetmaker> no worries, andythenorth :-)
20:04:33  <planetmaker> I'm not at the point to re-design the main menu anyway
20:04:50  <planetmaker> first there needs to move some of the functionality to a place where it can be accessed outside of it
20:05:56  <planetmaker> Rubidium: well, I'll do it nevertheless
20:07:31  <Rubidium> not sure whether I'll read/see it in the next 24 hours
20:09:29  <planetmaker> ok
20:09:32  <FooBar_> andythenorth: how long does it take your computer to make remake FIRS?
20:09:49  <andythenorth> FooBar_: let me see
20:11:53  * andythenorth discovers the 'time' command
20:11:56  <andythenorth> real	0m12.271s
20:11:58  <andythenorth> from clean
20:12:23  <andythenorth> FooBar_: how long does it take yours?
20:12:30  <FooBar_> ah, that is way better than what I'm experiencing now...
20:12:55  <FooBar_> after about 5 minutes it now fails at "no rule to make target firs.grf"
20:13:06  <andythenorth> hmm
20:13:16  <andythenorth> either you're missing files (could be my fault)
20:13:23  <andythenorth> or there's an issue with dependencies
20:13:26  <andythenorth> or something else :
20:13:26  <FooBar_> maybe my makefile.local is very outdated and messing with stuff
20:14:15  <Ammler> yes, you shouldn't need it
20:14:32  <FooBar_> I'll start by throwing that out
20:14:44  <Rubidium> 4.4 seconds from clean :)
20:14:55  <planetmaker> Rubidium:
20:16:06  <Rubidium> it doesn't feel "in sync" with the newgame tooltip
20:16:54  <FooBar_> I'd say "Ctrl+Click to generate a random temperate game."
20:16:58  <FooBar_> so game instead of map
20:17:55  <FooBar_> now it's "No rule to make target `Makefile.dep', needed by `depend'."
20:18:00  <Rubidium> "Start a new game. Ctrl+Click skips map configuration" <- for "New game"
20:18:23  <FooBar_> something which it just did make...
20:18:47  <andythenorth> FooBar_: probably a missing file, let me check
20:18:50  <planetmaker> hm, true-ish
20:18:57  <Rubidium> which uses completely different words than your suggestions
20:19:21  <Rubidium> Ctrl+Click starts a new game and skips map configuration
20:19:28  <Rubidium> Ctrl+Click starts a new game skipping map configuration
20:19:49  <Rubidium> not sure which one is the better English though
20:20:17  <planetmaker> STR_INTRO_TOOLTIP_TEMPERATE                                     :{BLACK}Select 'temperate' landscape style. Ctrl+Click starts new game and skips map configuration. ?
20:20:30  <FooBar_> Is this required for anything?
20:20:37  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #761 (Closed): Recycling Plant and Junk Yard code needs d... (andythenorth) @
20:20:38  <planetmaker> yes
20:20:49  <planetmaker> or might be...
20:20:50  <Rubidium> oh ... maybe <type> between new and game, i.e. new 'temperate' game
20:21:06  <planetmaker> yes
20:21:24  <Rubidium> but this string probably requires a native
20:21:53  <planetmaker> there's a native dev. Though I'm sure it's ok
20:22:01  <planetmaker> and andythenorth is a native, too ;-)
20:22:27  <andythenorth> andythenorth is puzzling over which FIRS files could be missing
20:22:35  <andythenorth> hg st shows nothing obvious
20:23:02  <FooBar_> did you get my remark about the
20:23:20  <andythenorth> I have that file
20:23:33  <planetmaker> FooBar_: yes and IIRC yes
20:23:42  <FooBar_> me too, but I'm sure that cannot do anything on my system, because I don't have python
20:23:58  <planetmaker> you do have python. You have hg
20:24:28  <FooBar_> but it might not be in my path?
20:24:34  <planetmaker> hg is in your path?
20:25:30  <FooBar_> yes, that is in my path, and in that dir is this python dll
20:26:56  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #453 (Closed): Recode General Store as NewHouse (andythenorth) @
20:27:16  <planetmaker> Rubidium:
20:28:51  <planetmaker> though... I'm not entirely sure it's needed for much, FooBar_
20:30:13  <FooBar_> there isn't much in it, that's for sure :)
20:30:38  <FooBar_> funny thing, after running make clean, it /does/ generate makefile.dep
20:30:47  <andythenorth> yup
20:30:55  <FooBar_> now I'm trying just 'make'
20:32:44  <FooBar_> it seems it's slow because for every grep action it opens and closes a new instance of sh.exe
20:34:30  <planetmaker> well. That's windows which is slow with it in particular
20:34:46  <FooBar_> I'm noticing...
20:35:28  <FooBar_> 5 minutes passed and still going...
20:37:13  <andythenorth> :(
20:37:37  <planetmaker> uh, that's ugly
20:39:04  <planetmaker> real	0m20.728s
20:39:05  <planetmaker> user	0m7.848s
20:39:07  <planetmaker> sys	0m10.780s
20:39:16  <planetmaker> which is ok in my eyes. But 5 minutes?
20:39:31  <FooBar_> still going
20:39:49  <Yexo> real    2m19.974s
20:39:50  <Yexo> user    2m39.953s
20:39:50  <Yexo> sys     1m48.413s
20:39:57  <Yexo> time make for first
20:40:32  <Yexo> eh, firs
20:41:45  <andythenorth> :o slow times
20:44:14  <Ammler> real    0m13.524s
20:45:30  <FooBar_> ah, now it stops with No rule to make target `firs.grf
20:45:50  <FooBar_> so real 15m and then you still have nothing...
20:46:17  <Ammler> Yexo: you use cygwin?
20:46:22  <Yexo> yes
20:46:27  <FooBar_> no, mingw/msys
20:46:45  <FooBar_> I think I have to give that up and indeed try cygwin instead
20:47:33  * andythenorth sends FooBar_ some sympathy via the internets
20:47:48  <FooBar_> thanks andy
20:47:48  <Ammler> FooBar_: or that package Rubidium pasted
20:49:01  <planetmaker> Ui... that's BIG time differences...
20:49:23  <planetmaker> @calc (2*60+39) / 7
20:49:23  <Webster> planetmaker: 22.7142857143
20:50:12  <FooBar_> I'll try again tomorrow, bit tired now.
20:50:16  <planetmaker> @calc (2*60+19) / 20
20:50:17  <Webster> planetmaker: 6.95
20:50:36  <planetmaker> hm...
20:50:42  <FooBar_> thanks so far, I'll try either Luna or Cygwin
20:50:51  <FooBar_> good night everyone!
20:50:56  <planetmaker> FooBar_: You could disable the dep check (locally), if you prefer. Anyway: good night
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20:53:27  <Yexo> planetmaker: is there an easy way to disable the dep check with your makefile system?
20:53:56  <planetmaker> not really 'easy'. Just delete the lines of the dep check
20:54:05  <planetmaker> it's in scripts/Makefile.common
20:54:30  <planetmaker> and replace it by a simple touch of Makefile.dep
20:54:49  <planetmaker> but no in-built parameter
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22:35:19  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #1028: Parameters (new) (planetmaker) @
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