Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 15th March 2011:
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05:34:16  <Brot6> Bundles Update: gb865c262 2011-03-15 cargodist   (
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10:49:31  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature Request #2437 (New): Industry Spawning (V453000) @
11:18:22  <planetmaker> V453000, ok, then I'll keep the issue open and I'll close it when I have graphics which show that a symmetric engine is reversed (in depots)
11:18:40  <V453000> :) awesome
11:18:43  <planetmaker> for now only non-symmetric engines can reverse
11:18:54  <planetmaker> double - headed can't reverse anyway
11:19:21  <V453000> yes... well, since you always have the oldest steamers available, it is fine for now :)
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12:52:47  <andythenorth> Yexo: I just pulled CHIPS ;)
12:52:49  <andythenorth> thanks for doing that
12:53:33  <Yexo> np :) it's awaiting more graphics now
12:53:46  <Yexo> #2432 is really problematic
12:53:46  <Brot6> Yexo: #2432 is "CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2432: Plain terrain tile - may be problematic - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
12:53:51  <Yexo> I'm not sure it's doable at all
12:53:58  <andythenorth> yeah
12:54:00  <andythenorth> I wondered
12:54:10  <andythenorth> doing that for industries was....boring
12:54:26  <Yexo> actually, it's perfectly doable as long as you don't care about cargo on those tiles
12:54:28  <andythenorth> and iirc, required checking multiple vars
12:54:50  <andythenorth> I think importance of cargo > importance of having a terrain tile station
12:55:19  <Yexo> I just meant no cargo on the terrain tile station
12:55:59  <andythenorth> I think that wouldn't be desirable
12:56:08  <andythenorth> it would be confusing wrt to the other tiles
12:56:16  <andythenorth> I don't want to have to write explanatory strings :P
12:56:20  <Yexo> agreed
12:56:21  <andythenorth> and there's no place to put them anyway
13:05:00  <andythenorth> Yexo: are the platforms sensitive to the amount of cargo waiting?
13:05:11  <Yexo> yes
13:05:18  <andythenorth> I scanned the code, but couldn't see at first glance ;)
13:05:24  <Yexo> it's the action2
13:05:35  <Yexo> there are 2 sets for lots of cargo
13:05:46  <andythenorth> oh yes
13:06:09  <Yexo> maximum amount (in ttd) was 4096, so the switch point is at 4096/2=2048
13:06:23  <Yexo> so currently you're very unlikely to see the graphics for a lot of cargo
13:06:34  <andythenorth> yes
13:06:46  <andythenorth> wonder if that should be user-configurable?
13:06:55  <andythenorth> I am on a war against parameters, but seem to be losing
13:07:09  <Yexo> I don't think this should be configurable
13:07:34  <Yexo> though shifting the balance away from 2048 to a lower value is a good idea
13:07:43  <andythenorth> yes
13:07:48  <andythenorth> my taste would be ~500t
13:07:57  <Yexo> agreed
13:08:02  <andythenorth> and make it a define :)
13:08:07  <Yexo> I just wasn't sure if you planned to draw more graphics
13:08:17  <andythenorth> not for levels of cargo
13:08:29  <andythenorth> I am more concerned about the uniform appearance
13:08:40  <andythenorth> I need to think on for that
13:08:42  <Yexo> the easiest way would be to just change the action2, but for that you can't use a define
13:09:05  <Yexo> change the number of sets from 2 to 8 and just repeat the second set for sets 3..8
13:09:22  <Yexo> that means the turnover point is at 4096/8
13:09:36  <andythenorth> one piece of templated code used by all platforms?
13:09:42  <Yexo> yes
13:09:54  <Yexo> actually two, one for track tiles and one for empty tiles
13:10:19  * planetmaker senses a certain template-mania ;-)
13:11:23  <Yexo> that is all
13:16:23  <andythenorth> nesting templates can be a good pattern
13:16:26  <andythenorth> or a bad one :P
13:16:53  <V453000> andythenorth:
13:18:05  <andythenorth> V453000: it's a trunk feature request ;)
13:18:17  <andythenorth> newgrf can't influence most of that
13:18:45  <andythenorth> I tried to track the number of types of an industry and prevent closure if there are too few, but even that was problematic
13:18:46  <V453000> :o :)
13:19:01  <andythenorth> however the changes to industry that alberth did should have helped
13:19:12  <andythenorth> dunno if they're in 1.0 though
13:19:37  <andythenorth> personally....I turn closure off ;)
13:20:31  <V453000> well, that is nice but not for "casual" servers ;)
13:21:58  <andythenorth> alberth's code tries to maintain a certain ratio of different industry types
13:22:07  <andythenorth> so if there is not enough of one kind, they're increased
13:22:11  <andythenorth> I don't know how it works though
13:22:41  <V453000> I see
13:22:46  <V453000> that would be nice :)
13:23:13  <V453000> by the way ... how far do fishing grounds grow on production?
13:24:09  <andythenorth> they don't
13:24:12  <andythenorth> currently
13:24:31  <andythenorth> they're like training wheels
13:24:35  <andythenorth> they're a good starter chain
13:24:44  <andythenorth> but you can't grow them to a massive empire :)
13:27:47  <V453000> :(
13:27:48  <Ammler> btw. are the network issues with devzone gone?
13:28:12  <andythenorth> Ammler: no issues for me ;
13:28:14  <Ammler> (openttd stable & bouncer)
13:28:14  <andythenorth> ;)
13:28:33  <Ammler> web is mostly no issue with such things
13:28:50  <Ammler> @topic remove -1
13:28:55  <Ammler> @services op
13:28:55  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Webster
13:28:57  <Ammler> @topic remove -1
13:28:57  *** Webster changes topic to "Talk about things hosted and developed on | Downloads log: | Sandbox passwords are the same as the usernames"
13:37:05  <Terkhen> Ammler: I had no further connection problems since last time either
13:39:40  <Ammler> so we can definitly blame hetzner for the issues :-)
14:12:31  <andythenorth> I'm going to add parameters to HEQS to hide groups of vehicles
14:12:40  <andythenorth> how fine-grained should the groups be?
14:12:43  <andythenorth> trams / trucks
14:12:51  <andythenorth> trams / bulldozers & tractors / trucks
14:13:18  <andythenorth> trams / bulldozers / tractors / dump trucks / logging trucks / foundry trucks / mog / rail mog
14:13:28  <andythenorth> each vehicle has an on/off parameter?
14:13:41  <andythenorth> ultimately I slightly don't really care :o
14:13:50  <andythenorth> as I will always turn all of them on
14:14:20  <Terkhen> I agree that by default all of them should be on
14:15:12  <Terkhen> and besides the trams/truck separation  (which would be nice IMO), I don't mind much the smaller groups either
14:15:18  <andythenorth> planetmaker / Ammler you setup MP games - any opinions?  ^^
14:15:25  <andythenorth> my preference is:
14:15:43  <andythenorth> trams / less-weird RVs / more-weird RVs
14:16:38  <andythenorth> maybe two parameters
14:16:41  <andythenorth> trams: on | off
14:16:58  <andythenorth> other vehicles: not weird | some weird | fully weird
14:17:05  <andythenorth> :P
14:20:38  <Terkhen> I have been using the mog in my current FIRS game for delivering supplies, they are quite good at that :)
14:21:14  <andythenorth> that's what they were made for ;)
14:21:24  <andythenorth> irl less so
14:22:40  <Ammler> disabling either trams or rvs would be fine
14:23:05  <andythenorth> I also had a request to hide the bulldozers
14:23:11  <andythenorth> AIs clog towns with them
14:23:31  <Ammler> that is a sp feature :-)
14:23:53  <andythenorth> I am happy to make these changes, but I can only spec things I care personally about :D
14:23:55  <Ammler> (mostly)
14:24:11  <andythenorth> as I don't care about this, I am waiting on 'someone' to devise a workable spec :)
14:24:26  <Ammler> hmm, iirc I made a ticket about
14:25:06  <Ammler> #1967
14:25:06  <Brot6> Ammler: #1967 is "HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Feature #1967: disable either trams or rvs - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
14:26:11  <Ammler> heqs has a damn lot open tickets :-P
14:26:19  <andythenorth> only 33
14:26:23  <andythenorth> you should see FIRS :P
14:26:35  <andythenorth> there's only one me :(
14:27:58  <Ammler> well, only 20 non HEQS2
14:28:29  <andythenorth> some of them are just reminders
14:28:38  <andythenorth> it's just a big backlog
14:28:53  <andythenorth> until I pull them into a version, there's no guarantee they'll ever be done :)
14:29:09  <Ammler> so pull 1967 to 1.0.1 ;-)
14:29:40  <andythenorth> I might
14:29:44  <Ammler> :-D
14:29:53  <andythenorth> the problem is it doesn't solve the problem for players who want bulldozers removed
14:30:01  <andythenorth> and do those players also want tractors removed?
14:30:05  <andythenorth> brrrr
14:31:22  <Ammler> well, but isn't bulldozers and tractors the whole point of heqs?
14:31:34  <andythenorth> nah, mining trucks was :)
14:31:42  <andythenorth> the bulldozers have almost no gameplay value
14:31:49  <andythenorth> I just got carried away drawing
14:32:03  <Ammler> for isr
14:32:17  <andythenorth> more or less yes
14:33:08  <Ammler> for scenario development, it would be nice to disable trams or rvs, the other part I don't care
14:34:36  <Ammler> it might make sense for ais, but shouldn't they be able to decide that?
14:35:00  <andythenorth> I dunno
14:35:08  <Ammler> something like get speed and cap and chose
14:35:27  <andythenorth> they get the capacity of the bulldozer and decide that it's awesome :P
14:35:45  <andythenorth> someone else said it's an AI issue and I shouldn't pay attention to it
14:35:56  <Ammler> I would agree tot that
14:36:18  <Ammler> (but not really much experience with ais)
14:36:41  <andythenorth> maybe I do your ticket
14:36:45  <andythenorth> then wait for feedback
14:36:49  <andythenorth> perfect is enemy of good
14:37:03  <andythenorth> next problem: I can't do your ticket :P
14:37:04  <Ammler> but having trams in a rv set is not ideal for scenario development
14:37:22  <andythenorth> I see the issue
14:37:48  <andythenorth> I don't know how to implement parameters to solve it yet :P
14:38:04  <Ammler> there are worse things though
14:38:07  <andythenorth> probably action 6 or 7 setting climate to 00 / 0F appropriately
14:38:49  <Ammler> yes, afaik that is best to keep it compatible
14:38:59  <andythenorth> #1677
14:38:59  <Brot6> andythenorth: #1677 is "HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Feature #1677: See if some vehicles can be hidden from AI. - #openttdcoop Development Zone"
14:39:42  <Brot6> HEQS "Heavy Equipment" Set - Feature #1967: disable either trams or rvs (andythenorth) @
14:39:53  <andythenorth> Ammler: I disagree with your thesis that one newgrf shouldn't define multiple vehicle types
14:39:59  <andythenorth> but I agree with your solution
14:40:30  <Ammler> yeah, it is just bad behavior, it is solveable in most cases
14:40:51  <Ammler> it isn't a bug, just a glitch :-P
14:41:56  <Ammler> also the problem is gone when roadtypes are introduced
14:43:47  <Ammler> hmm, no. you still have the issue for competition
14:44:38  <andythenorth> yes
14:44:44  <andythenorth> the problem is reduced by rv-wagons
14:44:49  <andythenorth> but not eliminated
14:44:58  <andythenorth> (the AI won't know how to use rv-wagons) :D
14:46:58  <Ammler> the worst set which does mix different types is alpine
14:47:14  <Ammler> the canadian sets offer also switches
14:47:33  <andythenorth> HEQS will deliberately mix all types soon ;)
14:47:42  <andythenorth> trams, RVs, trains, ships, planes
14:47:57  <andythenorth> but no industries, stations or houses, or road or railtypes
14:47:59  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I've no particular preference
14:48:01  <andythenorth> or cargos
14:48:05  <planetmaker> trams / other rv might be nice
14:48:23  <andythenorth> I think that's the better route for now
14:49:02  <planetmaker> and as you said, maybe "real heavy equipment (off road) vs. "large trucks (on road)"
14:49:06  <andythenorth> code it :)
14:49:06  <planetmaker> if that can be appropriate
14:49:34  <Ammler> mising trams and rvs is bad for scenario development, mixing with trains/ships/planes just for competition
14:51:10  <Ammler> best would be 2 seperate newgrfs :-)
14:52:06  * Ammler is dreaming of the region based newgrf patch ;-)
14:54:14  <Ammler> hmm, does openttd use perl already (for building)?
15:18:09  <andythenorth> Yexo: the 4096 / 2 is the default cargo threshhold?
15:18:17  <andythenorth> i.e. it's not explicitly defined anywhere in code yet?
15:18:27  <andythenorth> it's an action 0 prop I need to set?
15:18:48  <Yexo> the amount of cargo is split between all groups in your action2
15:18:56  <Yexo> ehm, maximum amoutn of cargo
15:19:03  <Yexo> the maximum is 4096 for historic reasons
15:19:22  <Yexo> so with 2 groups (like right now) the threshhold for switching is 4096/2
15:19:22  <andythenorth> it seems analogous to loading / loaded states for vehicles
15:19:31  <Yexo> exactly
15:32:31  <andythenorth> yay
15:32:33  * andythenorth may have it
15:38:08  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 62:bf6e70dbbbc7: Change: implement little / lots cargo threshold (us... (andythenorth) @
15:39:23  <andythenorth> Yexo: I thought maybe more action 1 / 2 / 3 code could be shared between the track / non-track tiles....but it seems not?
15:39:46  <andythenorth> looks like there might be too many minor differences to bother unifying it?
15:39:52  <Yexo> I don't see how
15:39:58  <Yexo> the action1 is completely different
15:40:19  <Yexo> the action2 is approximately the same, but the varaction2 is different again
15:40:25  <andythenorth> yes
15:40:34  <andythenorth> well changing in two places is fine
15:40:43  <andythenorth> (for maintaining)
15:40:56  <andythenorth> I'm not currently planning many more tile types
15:41:11  <andythenorth> I'm not sure how graphical variations are handled
15:41:20  <andythenorth> I thought maybe they are just more layouts in the action 0?
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15:45:27  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 63:0d1a3f5c5445: Change: swap WOOD for WDPR in action 3 (lumber grap... (andythenorth) @
15:45:27  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 64:d20e670c4d5c: Change: remove pink guides from Lumber graphics (andythenorth) @
15:47:19  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2432 (Rejected): Plain terrain tile - may be problematic (andythenorth) @
15:48:07  <andythenorth> Yexo: do you see any reason to not template the action 3?
15:48:29  <Yexo> nope, that's fine
15:49:04  <Yexo> you'll have to take care to copy the THIS_SET_ID defines above correctly, unless you can also template those
15:49:21  <andythenorth> ok thanks
15:55:09  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 65:1e69d2420639: Change: use crates for BRCK cargo (andythenorth) @
15:55:09  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2423 (Closed): List of cargos using crates (andythenorth) @
16:06:15  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2438 (New): Cargo graphics for Coal (andythenorth) @
16:06:15  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2439 (New): Cargo graphics for Iron Ore (andythenorth) @
16:07:04  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2440 (New): Cargo graphics for Sand (andythenorth) @
16:07:04  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2441 (New): Cargo graphics for Clay (andythenorth) @
16:07:04  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2442 (New): Cargo graphics for Bauxite (andythenorth) @
16:17:59  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2443 (New): Cargo graphics for Stone (andythenorth) @
16:28:33  <andythenorth> Yexo: do you think we can just suppress the spurious renum output?
16:28:39  <andythenorth> it masks genuine errors :O
16:28:48  <Yexo> that seems like the best idea for now
16:29:09  <Yexo> I've looked at the nforenum source, but couldn't figure out how to disable the erroneous warning 209's
16:29:47  <Yexo> both the list of warnings for the action6's and for the action0's are wrong
16:30:49  <Yexo> just checked, all 209 warnings in the current code are wrong
16:33:30  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 66:f871d6936de8: Change: suppress error 209 (not a valid error) (andythenorth) @
16:44:06  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2440 (Closed): Cargo graphics for Sand (andythenorth) @
16:44:06  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 67:bd7eb69f0f7f: Change: template action 3 for simple tiles (andythenorth) @
16:44:06  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 68:162756a4dcbc: Feature: cargo graphics for Sand (closes #2440) (andythenorth) @
16:44:07  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2440 (Closed): Cargo graphics for Sand (andythenorth) @
16:50:35  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 69:a725cb326385: Fix: missing files (don't commit when jet-lagged) (andythenorth) @
16:50:42  <andythenorth> oops :(
16:52:17  <andythenorth> hmm
16:52:23  <andythenorth> my FIRS stone isn't very stoney :o
17:08:11  <andythenorth> the FIRS quarrry doesn't have grey stone
17:08:15  <andythenorth> for...legacy reasons
17:08:22  <andythenorth> I guess most people think stone should be grey?
17:08:51  <andythenorth> irl it can be many colours, but probably grey is what people would draw if given crayons...
17:09:44  <Terkhen> I think grey too
17:10:02  <andythenorth> I figured :P
17:10:20  <andythenorth> this quarry station is going to steal away my joy for a few hours :(
17:18:32  <Brot6> chips: update from r55 to r69 done -
17:19:04  <Brot6> ogfx-trains: update from r220 to r224 done -
17:19:11  <Brot6> Following repos didn't need a nightlies update: 2cctrainset (r743), 32bpp-extra (r39), ai-admiralai (r75), ai-aroai (r11), ailib-common (r21), ailib-direction (r17), ailib-list (r32), ailib-string (r29), ailib-tile (r16), airportsplus (r73), basecosts (r22), belarusiantowns (r8), bros (r52), comic-houses (r71), firs (r1857), fish (r617), frenchtowns (r6), grfcodec (r825), heqs (r580), indonesiantowns (r41), manindu (r7), metrotrackset
17:19:11  <Brot6> (r56), narvs (r29), newgrf_makefile (ERROR r263), nml (r1286), nutracks (r179), ogfx-industries (r12), ogfx-landscape (r58), ogfx-rv (r80), ogfx-trees (r42), opengfx (r618), openmsx (r97), opensfx (r97), smts (r19), snowlinemod (r49), spanishtowns (r10), swedishrails (r198), swisstowns (r22), transrapidtrackset (r15), ttdviewer (r26), ttrs (r36), worldairlinersset (r671)
17:19:45  <Brot6> newgrf_makefile: compile of r263 still failed (#2435) -
17:37:10  <Ammler> planetmaker: linter error ^ :-)
17:37:45  <Ammler> <-- Fatal nforenum error!
17:40:22  <Ammler> minium for nfo header are 3 comments afaik
17:41:56  <Lakie> Hmm.
17:41:56  <Ammler> you need to add the Escapes anyway, else you might get rebuild issues, we had that already
17:42:03  * Lakie has a quick look at the sources
17:42:27  <Lakie> Maybe, oly really needed for peeps using old versions of nforenum / grfcodec
17:42:30  <planetmaker> yes... I might as well just revert that commit with the first thing
17:42:39  <planetmaker> s/thing/sprite/
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17:42:50  <Ammler> nah, then the header will be ignored
17:42:51  *** planetmaker has joined #openttdcoop.devzone
17:42:55  <Ammler> nah, then the header will be ignored
17:43:00  <Ammler> as it was now
17:43:12  <Ammler> then you could as good trash that file
17:43:18  <Lakie> Lines 1-5 shouldn't be in the header.pnfo
17:43:33  <Lakie> With the current nfoheader and makefile system
17:44:10  <Lakie> (Partly because nfoheader from memory is always put in front anyway, rendering those useless)
17:44:13  <Ammler> is there a project using that file already?
17:44:33  <Lakie> The default one does?
17:44:42  <Ammler> default one?
17:45:14  <Lakie> example nfo project.
17:45:44  <Ammler> yes, I meant is there another project which does use that header from there?
17:45:56  <Lakie> I noticed it whilst working on the finnish set, due to the include system leaving # tags, it always puts nfo header infront
17:46:10  <Lakie> Otherwise grfcodec and such would choke on the first # line
17:46:55  <Lakie> first line bing a # line*
17:48:12  <Ammler> you might just miss "// Format: spritenum pcxfile xpos ypos compression ysize xsize xrel yrel" as 3rd line
17:48:16  <Lakie> But feel free to revert it, it makes little difference overall, it ignores the // lines in the header.pnfo, and moves the sprite count
17:49:17  <Lakie> The error comes from the second sprite count declarion
17:49:35  <Ammler> ?
17:49:44  <Lakie> since it has it in nfo header, automatically added by make, when it comes to the one in header.pnfo, it treats it as a normal sprite
17:49:54  <Lakie> = error
17:50:24  <Lakie> Have a look at mygrf.nfo if you can
17:51:01  <Lakie> You'll see the header, #'s, then the header from header.pnfo followed by sprite '1' being a sprite count causing the error
17:51:13  <Ammler> ah stupid me
17:51:24  <planetmaker> hm, right
17:51:26  <andythenorth> FIRS quarry stations are quite sucky so far
17:51:31  <andythenorth> I might need to rethink
17:51:39  <planetmaker> CHIPS?
17:51:44  <andythenorth> yes
17:52:05  <andythenorth> particularly when they flick between sand / stone graphics
17:52:15  <andythenorth> maybe I should just use one set of graphics for both cargos
17:53:05  <planetmaker> stones may be coarser
17:53:29  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2443 (Closed): Cargo graphics for Stone (andythenorth) @
17:53:29  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 70:3ed826c24835: Feature: cargo graphics for Stone (closes #2443) (andythenorth) @
17:53:29  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 71:e5379a4a9565: Feature: improve Quarry ground tile (andythenorth) @
17:53:30  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2443 (Closed): Cargo graphics for Stone (andythenorth) @
17:53:38  <Lakie> planetmaker's changes were partly based off what I decided to do with the finnish set, moving the sprite count to the nfo header and dropping the header stuff from header.pnfo completely.
17:55:08  <Ammler> so removing the hader and counter from should fix it?
17:55:47  <Ammler> the header is included without #include?
17:56:45  <Ammler> (confusing)
17:57:04  <Lakie> Aye
17:57:12  <Lakie> Apparently, the pnfo's become a cnfo
17:57:35  * andythenorth is confused
17:57:41  <Lakie> Then the final nfo is cat nfoheader.pnfo? mygrf.cnfo > mygrf.nfo by the looks of it
17:57:44  <andythenorth> I should change FIRS Supplies behaviour?
17:58:08  <Lakie> Thus rendering any header information in any pnfo useless
18:00:11  <Lakie> Thats what observation of it before planetmaker's changes showed, which is why I exploited it as such.
18:10:28  <Lakie> If that makes sense to you Ammler and planetmaker?
18:11:48  <Ammler> he, the header should be added to the top of the final nfo which got piped to nforenum
18:13:12  <Ammler> hg parent --template "{extras}\n" | perl -ne '/convert_revision=svn:[^@]+@(\d+)/ and print "\n"'
18:13:18  <Ammler> how make that without perl?
18:13:25  <planetmaker> andythenorth, FIRS supply behaviour IMHO is fine
18:13:29  <planetmaker> as default
18:13:43  <planetmaker> And somewhen V's suggested additions might be nice
18:14:20  <Ammler> or is using perl for bulding no issue?
18:14:53  <Ammler> (afaik, grfcodec does use it too and nobody complained :-)
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18:15:26  <Ammler> is it possible to setup a system without perl?
18:15:38  <planetmaker> Lakie, cat nfoheader.nfo > proejctfile.cnfo; gcc project-file.pnfo >> project-file.cnfo; nforenum cnfo > nfo; grfcodec nfo
18:15:49  <Rubidium> Ammler: ofcourse
18:16:40  <Lakie> Ok,
18:17:56  <Ammler> Rubidium: basically it would need something get "branch=defaultconvert_revision=svn:6aa0318a-3be1-0310-93fa-89fd2396df07/trunk@22208" --> 22208
18:18:33  <Ammler> but the part before convert_revision could be different and maybe there is something after the revision
18:19:03  <Rubidium> then how is it split?
18:19:15  <Ammler> it isn't
18:19:37  <Ammler> that is why it needs regex
18:19:52  <Rubidium> I doubt there isn't a separator of some sort after the revision if stuff it trailing it
18:20:28  <Ammler> there isn't one between branch=default and convert_revision...
18:21:14  <Ammler> well, you could use hg parent --debug
18:21:15  <Rubidium> then you can't do it at all, after all you might start an identifier with a number
18:22:17  <Ammler> hg parent --debug | grep convert_revision | sed 's/.*@//'
18:36:22  <Ammler> btw. a wiki engine, which frosch and planetmaker surely would like:
18:36:23  <Webster> Title: MoinMoinWiki - MoinMoin (at
18:38:15  <frosch123> fjb as well
18:38:52  <frosch123> but actually "moinmoin" is wrong. trve people only say "moin"
18:41:54  <Ammler> :-)
19:14:14  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Revision 746:42d62091e25d: Add: All railbus,mus and Metros by Voyager1 drawn lately (DJNekkid) @
19:16:21  <Brot6> feed NewGRFs had 15 updates, showing the latest 10
19:16:21  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2250 (Closed): TCDD E8000 (DJNekkid) @
19:16:21  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2294 (Closed): FS ETR200 (DJNekkid) @
19:16:21  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2326 (Closed): GWR AEC Railcar (DJNekkid) @
19:16:22  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2315 (Closed): Singapore C151A (DJNekkid) @
19:16:25  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2313 (Closed): Singapore C830 Metropolis (DJNekkid) @
19:16:30  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2300 (Closed): NS Plan U DE-III (DJNekkid) @
19:16:33  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2325 (Closed): Gautrain Electrostar (DJNekkid) @
19:16:36  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2329 (Closed): MPC ACh2 (DJNekkid) @
19:16:39  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2334 (Closed): NS 8200 DD-IRM (DJNekkid) @
19:16:42  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2335 (Closed): NS 20 'Kameel' (DJNekkid) @
19:17:51  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2221 (Closed): Taipei C301 (DJNekkid) @
19:17:51  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2220 (Closed): 81-717.5M (DJNekkid) @
19:17:51  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2223 (Closed): NOLB 1 (DJNekkid) @
19:17:51  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2230 (Closed): FS 86 (DJNekkid) @
19:17:53  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2232 (Closed): DB VT04 (DJNekkid) @
19:20:29  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2207 (Closed): Regio Shuttle (DJNekkid) @
19:20:29  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2213 (Closed): NS DH1 (DJNekkid) @
19:20:29  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2208 (Closed): SNCF CC 40100 (DJNekkid) @
19:20:29  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2212 (Closed): ET171 (DJNekkid) @
19:20:32  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2217 (Closed): C8 (DJNekkid) @
19:20:35  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2214 (Closed): ETR 300 "Settebello" (DJNekkid) @
19:21:55  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2218: When should we release 2.0? (DJNekkid) @
19:22:32  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 72:5199f72de0e0: Feature: cargo graphics for Clay (closes #2441) (andythenorth) @
19:22:32  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2441 (Closed): Cargo graphics for Clay (andythenorth) @
19:28:04  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2228 (Feedback): r727 (DJNekkid) @
19:29:41  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Revision 747:d8110ef7eb00: Fix: QR 400. close #2417 (DJNekkid) @
19:29:41  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Revision 748:5d436b543e99: Fix: ET420 pantos. Close #2400 (DJNekkid) @
19:29:41  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2417 (Closed): QR 400 fix (DJNekkid) @
19:29:41  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2400 (Closed): DB 420 (ET420) has no pantographs (DJNekkid) @
19:32:20  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Revision 749:b4d60b10d5b2: Fix: close #2215 (flashing lights) (DJNekkid) @
19:32:20  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2215 (Closed): CR Class 439: Animated pixels in / view (DJNekkid) @
19:40:24  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Bug #2434 (Closed): Multiple instances of warning 209 (andythenorth) @
19:47:21  <Ammler> spamers :-P
19:56:26  *** andythenorth has quit IRC
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20:03:46  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Feature #2213 (Closed): NS DH1 (DJNekkid) @
20:03:46  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 73:ebed951e4d82: Feature: cargo graphics for Coal (#2438) (andythenorth) @
20:07:30  <DJNekkid> can someone remind me again, why is it called a 'nightly' when its done on an early eavening?
20:07:54  <DJNekkid> Ammler: Brot6 should be kicked :P
20:07:58  <Ammler> so you can fix the build bugs nightly
20:08:21  <DJNekkid> but, i sleep at night :P
20:08:30  <Lakie> Well, night is relative to location
20:08:32  <Lakie> :p
20:08:39  <DJNekkid> and usually do my work after the 'nightly' is produced
20:08:50  <Ammler> hmm, shall we rename it to eveningly?
20:08:59  <DJNekkid> Lakie: sure, but most of us live in Europe :)
20:09:02  <Rubidium> DJNekkid: so that's right, normally you start working after the night ;)
20:09:15  <DJNekkid> Rubidium: normally i start working after work :)
20:09:32  <DJNekkid> and some surfing, and dinner
20:10:00  <DJNekkid> i.e. aprox 18ish CET
20:10:13  <Lakie> What time are the compiled GMT?
20:10:23  <DJNekkid> 17:17 iirc
20:10:27  <Ammler> when would you like to let your nightly build?
20:10:35  <Lakie> Thats like just about the evening
20:10:59  <Lakie> Dunno, probably 0/1 gmt?
20:11:03  * Lakie flees
20:11:18  <DJNekkid> personally i think something like 9pm / 21:00
20:11:21  <DJNekkid> or something like that
20:11:37  <DJNekkid> now i do not know how the other people here 'work'
20:12:12  <DJNekkid> but as i assume that most of us have 'day jobs', and work something like +-8 hrs between 0700 and 1700 sometime
20:12:40  <Ammler> yes, so the nightly is ready when you start working on it
20:13:05  <DJNekkid> then i also assume that most of us come home, eat dinner, watch some TV, surf some internet, check mails and things, and then do some codeing
20:13:21  <DJNekkid> but it takes nearly 24hrs until its built for the community
20:13:23  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2438 (Closed): Cargo graphics for Coal (andythenorth) @
20:14:22  <Ammler> change it to build on push
20:14:27  <Ammler> I told that around 1000 times
20:14:32  <Rubidium> no, there'd be almost 24 hours for the leet users to find critical bugs
20:15:40  * andythenorth will lay down money that most of the critical bugs are missing files
20:15:42  <andythenorth> :P
20:15:44  <Ammler> yes, the idea is that you have time after the nightly is build
20:15:44  <DJNekkid> Rubidium: i'm not sure if you concider that a 'pro' or a 'con', but in my head is it a 'pro'
20:16:03  * andythenorth is happy with the current setup
20:16:09  <andythenorth> why change it?
20:16:14  <andythenorth> work on something else instead :)
20:17:20  <DJNekkid> but i guess i could change it to 'build on push', unless that is processorheavy on the serverside or something
20:17:38  <Ammler> well, I don't hink so
20:17:57  <DJNekkid> my server-computer builds the 2cc set in about 7 seconds
20:18:01  <DJNekkid> including a 'mr proper'
20:18:03  <Ammler> DevZone2 will do that for every project
20:18:30  <Ammler> well, we setup a whole fresh chroot to build
20:18:41  <Ammler> so it takes around 2mins
20:19:02  <Rubidium> still, doubtful you'll push every two minutes
20:19:32  <DJNekkid> usually no :=
20:19:41  <DJNekkid> :)
20:20:11  <Rubidium> with OpenTTD and its 35-ish minute compile cycle it's somewhat different ;)
20:20:24  <DJNekkid> indeed
20:20:49  <DJNekkid> btw, how fast do you compile it yourself?
20:21:38  <Rubidium> depends on the amount of changes, compiler settings and such
20:21:50  <Ammler> 2011-02-10 17:17:10+00:00: start building...
20:22:01  <Ammler> 2011-02-10 17:18:32+00:00: end building...
20:22:12  <Ammler> (including setup of the chroot)
20:22:25  <DJNekkid> that was the 2cc set, or openttd?
20:22:32  <Rubidium> and very much how hot the cache is
20:22:46  <Rubidium> so it can be between a second and a minute or so
20:23:17  <DJNekkid> okidoki :D
20:23:43  <Ammler> that is 2cc
20:23:55  <DJNekkid> however, to enable build on push, i assume i just add a dir called 'push' in .devzone, with a file 'enable' within that dir?
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20:24:50  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 74:ccc224aee2c8: Feature: cargo graphics for Iron Ore (closes #2439) (andythenorth) @
20:24:50  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2439 (Closed): Cargo graphics for Iron Ore (andythenorth) @
20:25:07  <Ammler> openttd needs around 4 mins with 1 core
20:25:38  <Ammler> DJNekkid: yes
20:26:48  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Revision 750:78a6dae42514: Add: Build-on-push (DJNekkid) @
20:28:14  <DJNekkid> that should do? :)
20:28:25  <Ammler> yes, I guess so
20:28:27  * andythenorth ponders a CHIPS release
20:28:27  <Brot6> 2cctrainset: update from  to r750 done (6 errors) -
20:28:33  <DJNekkid> lol, apparently
20:28:41  <Ammler> 2 mins
20:28:53  <andythenorth> the CHIPS graphics suck
20:29:02  <andythenorth> but a release might show how much players care :P
20:29:04  <Brot6> 2cc train set - Bug #2444 (New): DevZone compile failed (compiler) @
20:29:55  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Feature #2433 (Closed): Improve appearance of clay / quarry tiles (andythenorth) @
20:30:06  <Ammler> oh, I should fix that
20:30:14  <Ammler> well, ignore it for now :-P
20:30:48  * DJNekkid is happy ignoreing that !
20:31:19  <Ammler> (the release error, push release is fine)
20:31:54  <Ammler> and now, fix those 6 errors ;-)
20:33:27  <DJNekkid> it is merely 3 warnings, not 6 errors :)
20:33:34  <DJNekkid> as one of them goes over 3 lines :P
20:34:17  * Lakie ponders if he should write a system so his takes in include files (like ids.pnfo) read the defines and try and match them up with tags like veh_<name> vid_<name> etc.
20:35:10  <Lakie> Or just leave tags in the outputed nfo, like VID_<name> for the including pnfo's to define for me. hmm.
20:35:57  <DJNekkid> Btw, have anyone tried CitiesXL2011 ?
20:36:35  <Lakie> 'fraid not
20:37:57  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 75:7274a4ae9971: Change: update changelog preparatory to 0.3 release (andythenorth) @
20:38:02  <DJNekkid> It seems to suffer from what i think just about every city-builder i've tried suffer from...
20:38:09  <DJNekkid> lack of good transport simulation
20:39:18  <DJNekkid> In a city of 60k with about 10k working in a 'dirty industry' abit away. a '3x3' express way should be able to cope with that imho
20:39:52  <Brot6> CHIPS Station Set - Revision 76:00997b011591: Added tag 0.3 for changeset 7274a4ae9971 (andythenorth) @
20:40:01  <Ammler> Lakie: maybe you can also contribute to the Makefile Framework, as made quite a bad job there ;-)
20:40:03  <Ammler> me*
20:40:17  <Brot6> chips: update from 0.2 to 0.3 done -
20:40:45  <DJNekkid> anyway, im off to sort out my traffic problems :)
20:40:46  <Lakie> Yeah sorry about that, I obviously wasn't too clear when explaining it to planetmaker a while back. :(
20:42:35  <Lakie> bbiab
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21:32:35  <planetmaker> hm? What's the issue, Lakie ?
21:35:23  <Brot6> Example NewGRF Project - Bug #2435: DevZone compile failed (planetmaker) @
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21:51:06  <Lakie> this one planetmaker,
21:51:36  <Lakie> About removing the nfo header stuff from the sprites/nfo/header.pnfo also
21:51:58  <planetmaker> yes, I guess that needs doing
21:52:11  <planetmaker> I didn't find time so far and today :-)
21:52:28  <Lakie> Thats alright, I understand lots of people are pretty busy
21:52:45  <Lakie> I m,eant it was bad that I didn't explain it at the time as a needed change. :(
21:53:08  <planetmaker> well. Don't worry. Just as well also my fault. I should have tested it
21:54:13  <Lakie> Yeah, think I might take a break from my finish set for a while, kept getting in knots on how best to handle tags around vehicles.
21:56:44  <planetmaker> but you fixed it locally, did you?
21:57:18  <Lakie> Well, not the makefile system, but since the chances are based off what I did to the finnish set, I guess?
21:58:07  <Lakie> Shouldn't be too hard for me to fix in the makefile repo, might have to rework the text in mygrf.pnfo though as its technically no longer accurate
22:00:25  <Lakie> planetmaker: is it possible to grab the revison of a file in a repo?
22:00:41  <Lakie> Well, last revision altered
22:00:55  <planetmaker> how do you mean?
22:01:32  <Lakie> Well, for my lang script I was going to have it print out the last revision it was modified as a version, since it won't have its own repo and such
22:01:56  <planetmaker> ah, you want the revision a file was last modified?
22:02:02  <Lakie> Yeah
22:02:29  <planetmaker> there's a solution, we already have it in the FIRS language check script. But maybe there's an easier one
22:03:53  <planetmaker> hg log config.lib --template='{rev}\n' | head -n1
22:04:01  <planetmaker> where config.lib is your filename
22:04:14  <Lakie> Ok, thanks. :)
22:05:32  <planetmaker> welcome :-)
22:07:54  <Lakie> Be interesting to see how all this goes, its surprisingly difficault to devise systems which need 'extra' information.
22:08:16  <planetmaker> :-)
22:09:33  <Lakie> I don't think it'll be all that useful to others though, as it'll likely only support bits I need and work to how I think. :(
22:11:21  <Lakie> And the bad code from me, heh, had it in an infinite loop yesterday because of a typo...
22:12:00  <Ammler> planetmaker: hg log -f -l1 <file>
22:12:20  <Lakie> Would make rebuild the grf if I altered a script in the rules section or would it just ignore the changes?
22:12:21  <Ammler> (instead " | head -n1")
22:12:22  <planetmaker> he, even shorter :-)
22:12:43  <Ammler> maybe also faster
22:13:07  <Ammler> hmm, -f might not be needed
22:13:47  <planetmaker> Lakie: I'm not sure. If not it can be taught to do so: let the target file also depend on the script file
22:14:44  <Lakie> Maybe, but I thinking that if I keep trying to extend the script file with bits not affecting the grf, then it wouldn't be needed to rebuild the grf, but I can see why it might be needed sometimes
22:16:46  <Lakie> We'll see, no doubt people would likely rewrite the badly wrote python anyways. >_>
22:17:24  <planetmaker> well, any change to the script potentially changes the grf, so a re-build is in order then.
22:17:49  <planetmaker> The same (no need for a rebuild) also holds true for certain source code changes of the grf (like adding a comment). Still it'll get re-build
22:18:29  <Lakie> Fair enough, seems a little overkill for just adding a comment, heh
22:18:54  <Lakie> But I guess theres no way to tell until its compiled wether it  alters the grf or not?
22:19:04  <planetmaker> of course it is. But... file modified -> things which depend on it get rebuild
22:19:10  <planetmaker> indeed, yes
22:20:15  <Ammler> in most cases the grf changes because the revision is part of the grf title :-)
22:20:28  <Lakie> Heh, true
22:21:20  <Ammler> that is why for excample the obs complains if you add date to a binary
22:21:39  <Ammler> like openttd does add building date
22:25:03  <planetmaker> uhm, does openttd?
22:26:15  <Ammler> yes, well. No real issue since openttd is a "End Product" :-)
22:26:33  <Ammler> it doesn't trigger other packages to rebuild, if it changes
22:26:59  <Ammler> it would be bad, if grfcodec would have such a thing
22:27:46  <Ammler> according to 5matZ/Rubi, it is helpful for the error report
22:30:51  <Lakie> Heh, well, 'night
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22:32:06  <Ammler> if you find a way, how to determine the revision, which _really_ changed the grf, you should tell :-)
22:33:11  <Ammler> I guess, you would need to forbid revision/date in the grf and then make md5sum comparing...
22:37:21  <planetmaker> but when you did the latter... you already built the grf ;-)
22:38:02  <planetmaker> I mean... you could even add a nearly pointless ActionC - and that'd change the md5sum even
22:38:03  <Ammler> yes, well it would help to determine, if publishing is needed and triggering rebuild
22:38:42  <Ammler> ActionC is valid
22:39:03  <Ammler> but we do sometimes simple config changes
22:39:08  <Ammler> or docs
22:39:35  <Ammler> or andy is uploading a psd
22:39:41  <planetmaker> :-)
22:40:06  <planetmaker> but that's all IMHO no issue. Changing the revision is fine enough. It's another source
22:40:33  <Ammler> yes, that is a good reason to make it valid :-)
22:42:53  <planetmaker> well. OpenTTD does exactly the same: the revision changes when I edit the readme. And the same happens with many other projects
22:45:02  <Ammler> planetmaker: that is a valid change too
22:45:14  <Ammler> but openttd binary changes also if I build it again
22:45:17  <Ammler> the same version
22:45:22  <planetmaker> code refactoring not?
22:45:32  <Ammler> no change
22:45:37  <planetmaker> hm...
22:45:40  <Ammler> just a rebuild
22:48:17  <Ammler> so openttd does itself what it forbids newgrfs/ais to do ;-)
22:49:10  <Ammler> but just to remember, it isn't a real harm, since openttd is not required by any other software
22:50:34  <Yexo> what does openttd forbid newgrf/ais to do?
22:50:47  <Ammler> changing md5sum on same version
22:51:16  <Yexo> for Ais it's no problem as long as min_compatible-version is set correctly
22:51:27  <Yexo> for newgrfs is for the same reason only a problem for multiplayer games
22:51:54  <Ammler> maybe that changed since Action14 then?
22:52:22  <Yexo> not for multiplayer games, but for singleplayer games a newer version can be loaded just fine as long as min_compatible_version in action14 is set correctly
22:52:33  <Ammler> Yexo: "same"
22:53:20  <Ammler> the only difference is another md5sum because of say build date in the description
22:53:31  <Yexo> grf version A, min_compatible_version B (B <= A), grfsum C. Now recompile the grf, grfsum is now D. OpenTTD will still load savegames saved with version C when you only have D available
22:55:11  <Ammler> then?
22:56:01  <Ammler> I am not sure, did you confirm or disagree :-)
22:56:34  <Yexo> what was there to agree/disagree with?
22:56:39  <Yexo> I was just stating how openttd works
22:56:55  <Ammler> well, forbids might be wrong word
22:57:33  <Ammler> openttd needs same md5sum for same version
22:58:03  <Ammler> (which is fine)
22:59:14  <Ammler> we had such troubles in the beginning of opengfx before we introduced the md5sum checks
22:59:19  <Yexo> that is not true, openttd needs the same md5sum for multiplayer games (same md5sum implies same version), for singleplayer games it only requires a compatible version
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23:00:03  <Ammler> Yexo: afaik also bananas requires it to determine if the version you have is the same as the newesest available
23:00:22  <Yexo> true
23:00:38  <Yexo> but then mixing bananas content with self-build content is not a good idea
23:00:44  <Ammler> yep
23:01:07  <Ammler> well, as said, it is fine, we build the grfs that way :-P
23:01:16  <Ammler> openttd does not build that way ;-)
23:02:13  <Ammler> but that is fine too, since it does not trigger other software
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23:20:23  <planetmaker> feels like late enough for 'good night' :-)

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