Log for #openttdcoop.devzone on 30th June 2013:
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06:42:16  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Revision 223:aeda73ec5c2c: Fix: [company_land] Don't have trees grow on water XplanetmakerX @
07:12:44  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Feature #6032 (Closed): Graphics for Fibre Crop Farm XandythenorthX @
07:12:45  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3724:331a647b2f36: Change: provide correct graphics and lay... XandythenorthX @
07:16:25  <Brot6> firs: update from r3723 to r3724 done (30 warnings) -
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08:06:13  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Revision 224:44eb3bde67e6: Doc: Wrap readme at 80 characters and info about roc... XplanetmakerX @
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08:26:31  <planetmaker> Alberth, can I borrow you translation service for two strings?
08:26:33  <planetmaker> STR_NAME_OBJCLASS_LANDSCAPE                                     :Landscape elements
08:26:42  <planetmaker> STR_NAME_ROCKY_LAND                                             :Rocky land
08:27:19  <Alberth> Landschapelementen  and  Rotsachtig land
08:27:29  <planetmaker> thanks :-)
08:27:37  <Alberth> Hmm. make that Landschapselementen
08:28:04  <Alberth> ugh, translating to Dutch is difficult
08:28:36  <planetmaker> :-) The meaning is like natural landscape elements. Contrary to what is usually created by humans
08:28:47  <planetmaker> at least currently... only rocks in there :-)
08:30:27  <Alberth> it definitely rocks, thus :)
08:30:35  <planetmaker> :)
08:30:37  <Brot6> OpenGFX+ Landscape - Revision 225:5a267d8d74dc: Update: Dutch translation (Alberth) XplanetmakerX @
08:30:57  <Rubidium> tss... shouldn't eints do that? ;)
08:31:11  <planetmaker> I became inspired by some of the NewGRFs in the crash report I looked at yesterday
08:31:21  <planetmaker> And I thought I can do "better" rocky tiles :-)
08:34:00  <Alberth> other natural obstacles are kind of hard
08:34:29  <planetmaker> what do you think of?
08:34:49  <Rubidium> Johanna
08:35:09  <Alberth> that's quite the problem, what other forms are there than rocks? :)
08:35:36  <Alberth> perhaps a deep canyon, or a long rock in the sea
08:35:37  <planetmaker> lakes. Different rocks. bumpy terrain.
08:36:40  <planetmaker> should we know her, Rubidium ? :-)
08:38:04  <planetmaker> Alberth, it would likely go a long way, if there would be some kind of randomness in the existing ground tile types
08:38:35  <planetmaker> not sure whether it should be a per-tile and a per-region (like ~10x10-sized areas) or so. Possibly both
08:39:26  <Alberth> would you see per-region if you also do per-tile?
08:40:31  <planetmaker> depends on how done.
08:41:07  <planetmaker> For example: My imagination for that would be, that I could slightly vary the looks of the grass per tile. And maybe slightly change colour as per region or so
08:41:22  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it was a beached whale, that caused a media frenzy
08:41:27  <planetmaker> as to reflect different soil, different grass
08:41:42  <Rubidium> and was formerly known as Johannes, but autopsy told them it was female
08:41:49  <planetmaker> he
08:43:27  <Alberth> would make great eye-candy, or a fun disaster :p
08:44:05  <Rubidium> well... fun
08:44:37  <Alberth> "no animals were hurt in the process of making these pixels"
08:44:53  <Rubidium> Alberth: but she was
08:45:09  <Rubidium> if she wasn't hurt, you wouldn't have the "getting the idea" part of the process
08:45:30  <Alberth> quite likely indeed
08:46:46  <Rubidium> which is exactly why all those statements about "animals weren't hurt during XYZ" are such a hypocrisy
08:49:47  <Alberth> good point
09:08:41  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1003 to r1004 done (4 warnings) -
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10:45:42  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1004 to r1005 done (4 warnings) -
11:18:20  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1005 to r1007 done (4 warnings) -
13:20:14  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1007 to r1008 done (4 warnings) -
13:31:44  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Bug #6071 (New): Nom sprites to be changed to fixed ones Xkyosuke1989X @
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14:23:04  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Bug #6059: Dm8 and Dm9 services mixed Xkyosuke1989X @
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15:03:42  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3725:54865687f294: Change: use FRUT as cargo label for Frui... XandythenorthX @
15:04:32  <Brot6> FIRS Industry Replacement Set - Revision 3726:f03913cd81f2: Change: bump min. compatible version to ... XandythenorthX @
15:04:54  <Alberth> o/
15:06:22  <Alberth> making eints run in redmine context raised many questions on how it is actually supposed to be used
15:06:56  <Brot6> firs: update from r3724 to r3725 done (30 warnings) -
15:10:20  <Brot6> firs: update from r3725 to r3726 done (30 warnings) -
15:13:03  <andythenorth> o_O
15:31:00  <frosch123> yeah, we need to do a project meeting :)
15:32:03  <andythenorth> who is project manager? :P
15:32:08  <andythenorth> can they book a room?
15:32:11  * andythenorth nominates planetmaker 
15:32:47  <planetmaker> room is booked. I heard you can't make it though for ridiculous reasons like RL
15:32:54  <planetmaker> :-P
15:36:44  <andythenorth> so I don't have a comprehensiv picture of what I want from eints
15:36:52  <andythenorth> I don't much like the idea of it auto-committing
15:36:56  <andythenorth> without review
15:37:06  <Alberth> for everybody, I gave andy the log of this morning :)
15:37:07  <andythenorth> although I don't review lang files anyway, so maybe that's nonsense
15:38:10  <andythenorth> I usually learn by experiment
15:38:20  <planetmaker> good, Alberth
15:38:28  <andythenorth> so once eints was runing, I was going to write a python script to pull lang files down to FIRS
15:38:30  <planetmaker> andythenorth, OpenTTD also has auto-commits daily
15:38:46  <planetmaker> as long as validation is sound and access to translators not automatic...
15:39:13  <andythenorth> if we want vcs integration for eints, we need a package for eints-vcs?
15:39:21  <andythenorth> capable of round-trip
15:39:22  <andythenorth> ?
15:39:33  <planetmaker> did you read the lengthy logs? :D
15:39:44  <frosch123> the eints -> repo thingie is not that important imo; the repo -> eints thingie is imo the critical one
15:40:25  <andythenorth> to keep eints public display in sync with trunk of the project...?
15:40:38  <andythenorth> or just for setup initially?
15:40:50  <frosch123> you can only commit to the repo if you are up-to-date (since you cannot create remote heads normally); but you want to make sure that translators translate using the most recent source
15:43:53  <Alberth> that would need a mapping of random files in the project to important/non-important, and to the iso_code associated with the file
15:44:17  <Alberth> and a format of the changes that works for every common vcs, imho
15:48:55  <andythenorth> translating most recent source = upload the master lang file
15:49:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: what if you change colour codes in translations?
15:49:38  <andythenorth> unless I do it by find and replace, I don't touch translations
15:50:04  <andythenorth> I treat them as a (possibly broken) black box
15:50:19  <frosch123> well, there are two options :) either you forbid very hard to touch any translations ever, or you import changes strings immediately into eints
15:50:54  <andythenorth> I don't want to put implementation ahead of goal, but this starts to sound like some commit hook magic is needed
15:52:08  <andythenorth> but I don't see how we know which is canonical version of a translation: eints version or repo version
15:52:16  <andythenorth> for master lang it's trivial, repo is canonical
15:52:56  <planetmaker> repo wins, if newer than last eints pull
15:53:04  <planetmaker> eints knows when it pulled
15:53:15  <Alberth> for translated languages, I can only see one sane solution, order of submitting to eints
15:54:03  <andythenorth> maybe eints should commit every time a translation is saved
15:54:13  <andythenorth> then it's in sync with repo
15:54:15  <andythenorth> more or less
15:54:16  <andythenorth> meh
15:54:31  <planetmaker> I'd not like commit on every change...
15:54:42  <planetmaker> as it saves every string, andythenorth. Or do I err?
15:57:01  <Alberth> you'll need a working copy of the repo to do a commit, I think
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16:06:30  <Alberth> so what individual problems do we have in the first place?
16:06:45  <Alberth> 1. copying master language updates to eints
16:07:01  <Alberth> 2. copying translation updates back to the repo
16:07:12  <Alberth> ?
16:07:46  <Alberth> 3. copying translation updates from the repo to eints?
16:08:01  <frosch123> 4. importing existing languages from repo into eints
16:08:22  <frosch123> (existing in repo, new in eints)
16:08:26  <Alberth> 5. adding new projects
16:09:33  <Alberth> deleting stuff? or does that never (or not enough) happen?
16:10:13  <frosch123> you mean deleting translations when the string is removed from the master language?
16:11:29  <Alberth> no, that happens already, more deleting languages or projects
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16:11:50  <frosch123> that can already be done via the webinterface, can't it?
16:11:59  <frosch123> no need to do that automatic in some way
16:12:43  <frosch123> also adding new projects is sufficient to do manually
16:14:01  <andythenorth> ^ all of that sounds right to me
16:14:17  <andythenorth> 4. could be a manual step for most projects
16:15:02  <andythenorth> perhaps not
16:15:24  <andythenorth> Alberth: is 4 above (a) importing the files the first time on setup or (b) keeping them in sync with repo
16:15:24  <andythenorth> ?
16:15:50  <frosch123> 4 is first time, 3 is continously
16:17:08  <frosch123> creating new languages via eints might be tricky, since it does not have the meta data (# stuff) to create a new file in repo
16:17:23  <frosch123> so, i guess that always requires dev/manager action first
16:17:36  <Alberth> random other stuff (not critical for doing now)
16:17:36  <Alberth> 6. add threading support
16:17:36  <Alberth> 7. better file format for offline translating
16:17:36  <Alberth> 8. console operations
16:17:47  <frosch123> what does 6 mean?
16:17:56  <Alberth> frosch123: false, it has meta information of all languages
16:18:25  <Alberth> currently it's single threading only, which may lead to scaling problems
16:19:07  <frosch123> if it is only performance, i think you can put that way to the bottom of the list :)
16:19:40  <Alberth> I agree
16:20:36  <Alberth> although 6 and 8 may be somewhat related
16:21:02  <planetmaker> what do you mean with 'console operations'?
16:21:27  <planetmaker> scripted import and export?
16:21:34  <Alberth> not going through the https interface for talking to eints
16:21:51  <Alberth> mostly for internal eints/RM communication
16:24:12  <Alberth> but currently quite clueless how to achieve that ;)
16:24:42  <frosch123> i think using the http interface is fine
16:24:45  <Alberth> so it seems 1..3 are the most important problems?
16:24:59  <frosch123> it might use a speical user to use some slightly diferent pages or so
16:25:38  <frosch123> yeah, 1, 2 and 3 :)
16:25:48  <andythenorth> Alberth: wrt threading, from my experience of python web apps we'll be fine
16:25:56  <frosch123> that's what we need to finish the test environment
16:26:04  <andythenorth> if there's something horribly slow we can probably optimise it
16:26:29  <andythenorth> this has apache in front of it?
16:26:37  <Alberth> andythenorth: ok, let's not do that then :)
16:26:55  <andythenorth> some big python web apps are single-threaded
16:27:08  <andythenorth> the scaling strategy is to run multiple instances of the app, talking to same DB
16:27:12  <andythenorth> works fine
16:27:19  <Alberth> except we don't have a db
16:27:33  <Alberth> but a bunch of files that are cached in the instances
16:27:58  <Alberth> we could switch to a db for each project or so
16:28:17  <planetmaker> that's LOADS of DBs on the DevZone then
16:29:24  <planetmaker> but I've no clue. Maybe that's no issue
16:29:29  <andythenorth> problem for later
16:29:33  <Alberth> my main reason for a file was that I don't see how a DB can ever beat loading a file with all information straight from the disk
16:29:37  <andythenorth> I estimate 1 concurrent user at once on this
16:29:46  <andythenorth> :P
16:30:15  <Rubidium> andythenorth: concurrent in what sense?
16:30:24  <Alberth> it's stateless anyway, so as long as requests come in at a slower rate than processing, we're fine
16:30:55  <Rubidium> cause, honestly, in OpenTTD there is no concurrent vehicle movement (or is there?)
16:31:19  <Alberth> actually, there is no vehicle moving at all :p
16:31:30  <andythenorth> Rubidium: real people, with open http requests waiting to be served
16:32:01  <planetmaker> hehe... vehicle hopping
16:32:35  <Alberth> with "real people" including scripts that are executed
16:33:47  <andythenorth> how many users does web translator get concurrently?
16:34:10  <andythenorth> nvm
16:34:30  <Rubidium> with Alberth's definition of people: at least 2
16:34:36  <andythenorth> Alberth: wrt console - if it's necessary, substitute an authenticated http API instead
16:35:26  <Alberth> my guess is very few normally, if you see the number of string changes every day, unless some dev throws the string in the source upside down
16:35:54  <Alberth> ie add help texts for all advanced settings :p
16:38:50  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6074 (New): Allow copying master language updates from RM to eints XAlberthX @
16:38:50  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6077 (New): Allow copying translation updates back to the repo XAlberthX @
16:39:18  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Bug #6059: Dm8 and Dm9 services mixed XallukeX @
16:39:20  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6080 (New): Allow copying translation updates from the repo to eints XAlberthX @
16:39:22  <Rubidium> Alberth: sending an email asking them to do stuff before a release will trigger the most concurrency I think
16:39:58  <Alberth> sound likely
16:40:36  <planetmaker> I can confirm that observation
16:41:02  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6083 (New): Importing existing languages from repo into eints (initial impo... XAlberthX @
16:41:37  <frosch123> just mail everyone a different deadline :p
16:42:05  <Rubidium> regardless, most that do something will do it right away
16:42:58  <Brot6> Webtranslator - Feature #6086 (New): Make adding new projects from RM work XAlberthX @
16:43:08  <Alberth> send mail to different persons at different times :p
16:47:40  <Alberth> enough to think about, thanks all for participating
17:19:21  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1000 to r1008 done (4 warnings) -
17:23:00  <Brot6> xussrset: compile of r1009 failed -
17:23:22  <Brot6> firs: update from r3723 to r3726 done (30 warnings) -
17:36:16  <Brot6> xussrset: compile of r1010 failed -
17:39:26  <Brot6> xussrset: compile of r1012 failed -
17:50:40  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1008 to r1013 done (4 warnings) -
17:52:03  <Brot6> ogfx-landscape: update from r216 to r225 done -
18:41:42  <andythenorth> can we play an MP game next week to test this new FIRS economy? o_O
18:41:55  <andythenorth> tonight is too late, and I think it needs 2 nights play to get a proper test
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19:40:16  <Brot6> xussrset: update from r1013 to r1014 done (4 warnings) -
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20:15:08  <Brot6> Finnish Trainset - Feature #5639: Efs, Rbkt XallukeX @
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