Log for #openttd on 30th January 2008:
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00:00:02  * orudge` likes Coke, and Pepsi
00:00:11  <orudge`> and vodka and coke/pepsi
00:00:11  <orudge`> and rum and coke
00:00:11  <orudge`> etc
00:00:14  <Gonozal_VIII> but a lot less sprites
00:00:26  <Rubidium_> mountain dew
00:01:05  <Gonozal_VIII> well... it's not really coke... it's some cheapo thing, freeway cola... and light^^
00:01:22  <Rubidium_> coke isn't coke anymore either
00:01:48  <Gonozal_VIII> just not the same without drugs...
00:01:51  *** ThePizzaKing [~jeff@] has joined #openttd
00:01:52  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
00:02:00  *** ThePizzaKing [~jeff@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
00:02:13  <Chrill> Coke is unhealthy :(
00:02:18  * Chrill throws Coke @ orudge`
00:02:36  <Gonozal_VIII> they keep saying that.. but where's the proof?
00:02:53  <Chrill> USA?
00:02:56  <Bjarni> orudge`: you like mixing rum with stuff and then drink it?
00:03:14  <Gonozal_VIII> rum & mud
00:03:17  <fjb> Who had the bad idea that the backside, the underside and the rail / road of a bridge are one sprite? So every bridge set has to support evry road or railset.
00:03:17  <Chrill> Bjarni, that exlpains his behaviour
00:03:18  <orudge`> Bjarni: occasionally
00:03:30  <Chrill> Vodka and Red Bull <-- Instawin
00:03:32  * orudge` goes to watch something
00:03:32  <orudge`> ta ta
00:03:39  <Chrill> baii rudgie
00:03:43  <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: you might also want to allow for a colour-remap-overlay for the trackbase, that way you could use "company colours" in the trackbase to change appearance depending on the ground sprites, for smoother connection
00:03:46  <Bjarni> 400 years ago the buccaneers of Port Royal mixed rum and gunpowder and drank it
00:03:50  <Bjarni> ever tried that?
00:03:55  <Chrill> Yeah sure
00:04:22  <Bjarni> I presume it game them quite a buzz
00:04:28  <GoneWacko> Have you ever had brown-brown?
00:04:34  <Gonozal_VIII> you could eddi but i don't think that would be necessary
00:04:40  <Bjarni> I don't even know what it is?
00:04:52  <Bjarni> -?
00:05:10  <Gonozal_VIII> that's from lord of war, right?
00:05:11  <GoneWacko> Brown-brown is a form of powdered cocaine, cut with gunpowder. Commonly given to child soldiers in West African armed conflicts,[1] the drug gained notoriety after it was used by Nicholas Cage's character, Yuri Orlov, in the 2005 movie Lord of War[2]. Consumed by insufflation, the gunpowder in the drug irritates the bowels which increases aggression.
00:05:55  <Bjarni> o_O
00:06:04  *** LeviathNL [] has joined #openttd
00:06:21  <Bjarni> remember what happened to the last person in here speaking of drugs?
00:06:28  <Chrill> yeah, he got op
00:06:31  <GoneWacko> I wasn't here to see it I think
00:06:41  <Chrill> twas DorpsGek
00:07:04  <GoneWacko> What are you getting at Bjarni
00:07:15  <Bjarni> he ended up getting perm banned
00:07:23  <Chrill> ..oh
00:07:26  *** Diabolic-Angel [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
00:07:28  <GoneWacko> for something completely unrelated I'm sure?
00:07:34  <Bjarni> not really
00:07:47  <Bjarni> he started showing pictures of his plants
00:07:51  <GoneWacko> so?
00:07:58  <Bjarni> and how he didn't consider drugs to be an issue
00:08:07  <GoneWacko> apart from it not being on-topic, I don't see the problem
00:08:20  <Bjarni> drugs are banned
00:08:33  <GoneWacko> Not in the Netherlands (softdrugs anyway)
00:08:34  <Bjarni> there is nothing good about drugs at all
00:08:37  <GoneWacko> and alcohol is rarely banned
00:08:39  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't consider them an issue too as long as the people taking them don't put others in danger
00:08:53  <Bjarni> drugs funds terrorists
00:09:07  <GoneWacko> hah.
00:09:10  <Bjarni> so if we kill all drugs we kill a major income for them
00:09:11  <SmatZ> not true
00:09:16  <Gonozal_VIII> that's one of those lame things usa came up with
00:09:22  <GoneWacko> Bjarni: what do you fund?
00:09:34  <Bjarni> as little as possible
00:10:03  <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> that's one of those lame things usa came up with <-- no
00:10:33  <Gonozal_VIII> well... then banning them makes it even easier for them
00:10:44  <Bjarni> it's a well known fact that terrorists in South America earn a fortune on cocaine and shit
00:10:53  <GoneWacko> Drugs are not an issue, I don't take them myself but if someone wants to endulge themselves by all means let them go ahead.
00:10:54  <Gonozal_VIII> they should control where they come from and the quality
00:11:10  <SmatZ> Bjarni: if he grows it at home, it doesn't fund terrorist
00:11:16  <Bjarni> I know
00:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: what do you think american companies earn with drugs in south america?
00:11:51  <Bjarni> I have no idea
00:11:54  <GoneWacko> ah.
00:11:59  <GoneWacko> Finally you tell the truth :]
00:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> you don't honestly think they would let such a great money source slip...
00:12:21  <Bjarni> I know that Farc earns a fortune
00:12:30  <Bjarni> enough to arm a whole army
00:12:32  <GoneWacko> I'm not going to say _I_ have an idea, but I'm not overly confident that you do, either.
00:12:59  <GoneWacko> Do you know Farc well enough to know that they are 'evil'?
00:13:12  <GoneWacko> as the saying goes, one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter
00:13:12  <Bjarni> they are on the EU terrorlist
00:13:18  <Bjarni> that should be enough
00:13:18  *** Leviath [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
00:13:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: you know the "United Fruit Company"?
00:13:42  <GoneWacko> I've never understood why the EU should even care about militants in another continent.
00:13:45  <Bjarni> besides they shoot and kidnaps civilians
00:14:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> (now called "Chiquita")
00:14:14  <Bjarni> I know them by name
00:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause2> it controlled like 100% of the fruit plantations in south america
00:14:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> and worked together with the CIA to install and remove governments as they pleased
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00:15:37  <Bjarni> they aren't killing us in the process
00:15:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> and i mean that litterally
00:15:57  <Bjarni> I know CIA did a lot of stuff in South America
00:15:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> like if a government wanted to increase minimum payment for the local workes
00:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> they'd coup against that government, and install Yet Another Dictatorship
00:17:36  <Bjarni> how is that different from EU gaining more power and money to themselves without elections?
00:17:48  <GoneWacko> huh?
00:17:54  <GoneWacko> I don't even see how you're making the comparison.
00:18:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> that's an awfully long way to come, indeed ;)
00:18:19  <GoneWacko> I know nothing about either but learning about them now I don't see the relationship
00:18:39  <Bjarni> I guess I have to tell you about the Lisbon treaty then
00:20:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: i'm not saying that some EU regulations are not suspect, but it's a whole different thing than sending troops to remove democratically elected governments and install a dictator that is more likely to support your company's interest
00:20:29  <Bjarni> basically EU decided to allow a majority to rule instead of getting all countries to agree so according to the Lisbon treaty EU can rule that a country has to do something even if every single person in that country is against it
00:20:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> and with EU treaties, at least the member states' representants must have had to agree
00:20:55  <Bjarni> they did some black magic to avoid having elections about this since France and the Netherlands voted no
00:21:23  <Bjarni> also it means that EU will get a president
00:21:36  <Chrill> and his name will be Owen Rudge
00:22:03  <Eddi|zuHause2> honestly, with the recent growth of the EU, giving each country a veto right cannot possibly work anymore
00:22:10  <Bjarni> actually France talked about Anders Fog Rasmussen but only if Denmark joins the Euro
00:22:24  <Chrill> Denmark sucks if they do
00:22:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> veto rights might be a good idea with 5 or 12 countries, but not with >20
00:22:57  <Chrill> im offz im offz bai im offz
00:23:06  *** Chrill [] has quit []
00:23:07  <Bjarni>  <Eddi|zuHause2> honestly, with the recent growth of the EU, giving each country a veto right cannot possibly work anymore <-- that's a valid argument but the constitution(s?) will not allow it without an election
00:23:28  <Bjarni> the s? is because I only read the Danish one not all of them
00:24:13  <Gonozal_VIII> getting hundreds of millions of people to elect could be quite difficult
00:24:25  <Gonozal_VIII> well... expensive
00:24:33  <Eddi|zuHause2> elections are done all the time...
00:24:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> that can't be an issue
00:25:07  <Bjarni> but in a democracy will you not have an election because it's too expensive even if the law says that you have to?
00:25:10  <GoneWacko> Personally I would love nothing more than see the EU be disbanded and just keep the European Economic Community, I'm not a big fan of a United States of Europe idea
00:25:22  <Bjarni> wouldn't it be dictatorship otherwise?
00:25:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i think that both the euro and a european constitution are a good idea
00:26:11  <glx> but not the one they wanted to use
00:26:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> "national" states have caused too much trouble in the past
00:26:15  <GoneWacko> I love the Euro, I hate the idea that some guy from another country gets to decide what happens in mine, though :-)
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00:26:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> glx: hence i did not say "the" constitution ;)
00:26:33  <Bjarni> looks like Eddi|zuHause2 ate all the German propaganda
00:26:47  <Gonozal_VIII> i've read some science fiction story that had simplyfied elections where people can choose others to represent them in votes and elections... the vote of the representing persons counts multiple times then
00:26:48  <GoneWacko> Like the Italian government, they seem to like criticizing the Dutch government when something unconventional happens :)
00:27:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: you can do that right now, too, you can give a person a "Vollmacht"
00:27:40  <Gonozal_VIII> well bjarni, they are not good for us now... but they will be for future generations
00:28:00  <glx> we always blame Brussels
00:28:02  <GoneWacko> Gonozal_VIII: that's hardly sciencefiction, most government work that way, in a sense
00:28:24  <Bjarni> in order to get the Euro to work then the EUR countries have to keep each other in strict control
00:28:29  <GoneWacko> you pick a party based on how much what they stand for matches with what you stand for, and then the party does all the decisionmaking
00:28:48  <Gonozal_VIII> well.. but what if all parties suck?
00:28:50  <Bjarni> otherwise inflation and stuff will ruin the economy
00:29:01  <glx> Gonozal_VIII: then you create one
00:29:04  <GoneWacko> Gonozal_VIII: then you make your own party that doesn't :)
00:29:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: you can always start your own party
00:29:14  <Bjarni> that's why EU decided that if the economy is bad in a country then they fine it until they get a better economy
00:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: or let yourself be elected without party
00:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> you just have to convince more than 50% of your local voters
00:29:46  <Gonozal_VIII> i know, i know... but that doesn't work
00:29:52  * Bjarni never understood the idea in "you have too few money. Now you will have to pay me each month until you have plenty again"
00:30:26  <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> well bjarni, they are not good for us now... but they will be for future generations <-- and what makes you think future generations will not have the problems?
00:30:34  <Bjarni> presuming EU survives
00:30:59  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: it's not about "bad economy" it's about "unbalanced expenses"
00:31:15  <ln-> let's have Turkey as a member, then all problems will be solved.
00:31:18  <Vikthor> (01:29:52) ***Bjarni never understood the idea in "you have too few money. Now you will have to pay me each month until you have plenty again" -- I always thought its more about you spend too much, so pay a fine
00:31:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> i.e. "you can't spend more than you earn"
00:31:31  <Bjarni>  <Eddi|zuHause2> Gonozal_VIII: you can always start your own party <-- somebody here did that 9 months ago with famous politicians and now they are down to 4 people :p
00:31:54  <GoneWacko> it usually is a joke
00:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: they started a new party here a few years ago
00:32:20  <Bjarni> they meant it as a serious party but they did nothing but internal fights
00:32:36  <Bjarni> and it would appear that i was political suicide to join it
00:32:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> and now they made it into 2 "LÀnderparlamente"
00:32:48  <GoneWacko> some years ago we had Pim Fortuyn who made a party, they did incredibly well during the first elections, but because none of the people in the party had the faintest idea of politics they fucked up and they were never heard of again.
00:33:21  <GoneWacko> Same thing is about to happen with another 'radical' party (led by a neonazi :])
00:33:26  <Bjarni> Denmark gained a new party like 10-15 years ago or so and now it's the 3rd largest
00:33:29  <Eddi|zuHause2> a 5th force in the parliament really screws the existing system
00:33:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> because none of the previous 2-party-coalitions have a majority anymore
00:33:53  <GoneWacko> and luckily the dutch Paedo Party never managed to get enough finances to make it to the elections -_-
00:34:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's the same with the federal parliament at the last election (where that new party started for the first time)
00:34:20  <Bjarni> GoneWacko: is that the party that wanted to lower the age of consent?
00:34:25  <GoneWacko> yes.
00:34:29  <Bjarni> good :)
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00:35:04  <GoneWacko> and the had a bunch of popular points on their agenda because they wanted to lure voters towards them
00:35:21  <GoneWacko> such as legalization of hard drugs, to come back to what started this whole discussion.
00:35:24  <Bjarni> even if the rest of the policies might be good (I don't know them) then nothing could make up for having pedophile policies
00:35:46  <Bjarni> drugs are bad
00:35:52  <Bjarni> they lead to crime
00:35:57  <Bjarni> and crime leads to drugs
00:36:01  <GoneWacko> not if they're legalized -_-
00:36:13  <Bjarni> that is what you think
00:36:21  <GoneWacko> And the opposite is what you think.
00:36:38  <Bjarni> you don't know how many assaults that are due to people being affected by drugs
00:36:44  <Bjarni> or traffic accidents for that matter
00:36:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i can understand the abuse part of "paedophilism" being bad, but there was a time in europe where having sex with 12 year old boys and girls were a commonly accepted action
00:36:55  <GoneWacko> Well the Dutch may be pretty famous for being open minded but we're not stupid enough to allow paedophilia (or in fact hard drugs, which I will agree on that they may not be a very positive force)
00:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> just read a book about ancient greece
00:37:21  <GoneWacko> Eddi|zuHause2: well I guess that according to nature it's all good
00:37:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> you'll learn that young men took young boys as "pupils", teach them stuff, and also have sex with them
00:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause2> later they get married to young girls
00:38:10  <Bjarni> people at the age of 12 are still children at heart and unsuited for being parents
00:38:25  <GoneWacko> Nobody here is questioning that >_> (I think :|)
00:38:34  <Bjarni> no
00:38:39  <Bjarni> I just made a statement
00:38:42  <Bjarni> not an argument
00:39:00  <GoneWacko> ok. Go ahead then.
00:39:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: having an older and "experienced" (because he previously taught a young boy) husband kinda makes up for that
00:39:16  <Bjarni> so the conclusion to my statement is that if they aren't old enough to be parents then they aren't old enough for sex
00:39:36  <GoneWacko> Heck I don't care about safe sex
00:39:53  <GoneWacko> baby making sex, not until you're mentally mature
00:40:19  <Bjarni> all sex should be considered baby making sex
00:40:28  <Bjarni> nothing is for sure apart from not doing it
00:40:39  <Bjarni> and you should be prepared to deal with the results of your actions
00:40:45  <GoneWacko> Are you terribly christian or something? :-p
00:40:50  <Bjarni> no
00:41:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> granted, in ancient greece, like in most old cultures, women were only considered "baby making machines", and had almost no social or political rigths
00:41:07  <GoneWacko> Well, I just know you're going to argue now but, there's always aftermeasures if you really must
00:41:11  <Bjarni> I expected that question when I wrote what I just wrote
00:41:23  <Bjarni> but there is nothing religious behind it
00:41:31  <GoneWacko> Bjarni: I was going to ask it back when you started about drugs ._>
00:41:41  <Bjarni> there are sanity, morale and logic thinking behind it
00:42:39  <Bjarni>  <GoneWacko> Are you terribly christian or something? :-p <-- I tend to disagree with die hard Christians most of the time
00:42:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> but honestly, this raising of "baby making" age to something like 26 (what appears to be current average) is something invented in modern times, ancient cultures couldn't have survived that way
00:42:50  <GoneWacko> Well yes but sanity, morale and logic thinking can sometimes cause pretty boring lives :>
00:42:55  <Bjarni> and even when we agree the arguments aren't the same
00:43:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> girls had to get children when they were biologically able to do so
00:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause2> because the life expectancy was not very high
00:43:44  <Bjarni> but giving birth at the age of 12-13 were dangerous as well
00:43:59  <TinoDidriksen> The prime age was 17.
00:44:11  <Bjarni> how do you know?
00:44:11  <Gonozal_VIII> 17 is still prime
00:44:39  <Bjarni> and there is a huge difference between being 12 and 17 both physically and mentally
00:44:50  <GoneWacko> I don't think girls would start puberty at 12-13 back then, although I have no references to back up that assumption.
00:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: well i was thinking about between 14 and 18 to be the "best" time to get children
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00:45:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> GoneWacko: i don't think the biology of humans changed much in the last 2000 years
00:45:27  <GoneWacko> I know that these the age at which puberty starts is moving forward as of late though
00:45:30  <Bjarni> to have them or to start having them?
00:45:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> except they appear to have got physically larger
00:46:07  <Sacro> [00:45] <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: well i was thinking about between 14 and 18 to be the "best" time to get children <- oh aye ;)
00:46:12  <GoneWacko> Eddi|zuHause2: but hygiene and such has, which has effects on quite a lot of things
00:46:17  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: well, it was not uncommon for women to die when giving birth
00:46:24  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause2: that's the food. The middle ages delivered poor food (for several reasons) so people were shorter
00:46:39  <Gonozal_VIII> i've read that the weight has a high effect on the time when girls start being able to get children
00:46:54  <Bjarni> specially the weight
00:48:10  <Bjarni> <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: well, it was not uncommon for women to die when giving birth <-- I know but giving birth at an age where the body isn't ready for it is a high risk birth
00:48:11  <Sacro>
00:48:20  <Bjarni> besides women still dies giving birth
00:48:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> also, when only 7 of 10 born children reach puberty, you need to get a lot more children
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00:48:45  <Eddi|zuHause2> er...
00:48:47  <Bjarni> even on modern western hospitals
00:48:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> wrong way around
00:48:54  <Eddi|zuHause2> 3 of 10 reach puberty
00:49:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> 7 of 10 die before puberty
00:49:29  <Bjarni> a hundred years ago it wasn't uncommon for children to die
00:49:35  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: sure, you cannot get risks to 0%
00:49:45  <Bjarni> everybody knew somebody who lost somebody
00:50:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> the culture needs to ensure the 2.1 children for keeping population
00:51:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> meaning children that reach reproductive age
00:51:02  <Bjarni> when I was at a cemetery once I found a grave of around that age. It contained 3 children of the age of 6 to 10 (or something like that) and they all died within two weeks
00:51:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, modern "basic" illnesses might very well have been fatal without treatment back then
00:51:56  <Bjarni> I guess they got some disease or something
00:52:06  <Bjarni> but imagine what it must have been like for the parents
00:52:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> excuse me if i won't do that ;)
00:52:36  <Bjarni> good point
00:52:54  <Bjarni> but you already did by giving such a statement
00:52:58  <Bjarni> sort of
00:53:13  <Bjarni> you decided that you don't want to because you presume something about what it would be like
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00:54:06  <Bjarni> why is it that IRC starts with a topic (like here drugs) and then it ends up with people dying from lack of medicine
00:54:06  <Sacro>
00:54:23  <Bjarni> and in between we talked about ancient Greece, EU and politics
00:54:51  <GoneWacko> Sacro: are you just spamming random links or what D:
00:55:03  <Sacro> GoneWacko: yaah, kinda ;p
00:55:08  <Sacro> but only decent ones
00:55:09  <Gonozal_VIII> as usual
00:55:15  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm no
00:55:19  <Gonozal_VIII> not the decent thing
00:55:34  <Sacro> i mean i have ones i could spam, but they;'d probably get me kicked
00:55:50  <Gonozal_VIII> you already lead the kick count
00:55:59  <GoneWacko> I'm willing to bet that keeping the current behaviour is going to get you kicked as well :p
00:56:05  <Bjarni> Sacro: pictures of your rice cooker?
00:56:15  <Sacro> Bjarni: she's gone back to china
00:56:21  <Sacro> she got caught up in the snow
00:56:34  <Bjarni> you know for sure or do you just presume?
00:57:03  <Gonozal_VIII> froze to death in the snow... btw who?
00:57:37  <Bjarni> the Chinese girl Sacro used to live with
00:57:51  <Bjarni> she went back to China recently
00:57:57  <Bjarni> or so he claims
00:58:10  <Bjarni> all I know is that she is not around Sacro anymore
00:58:21  <Bjarni> I don't know that for sure either
00:58:29  <Bjarni> she could be in the closet or under the floor
00:58:43  <Gonozal_VIII> he's probably keeping her in the basement and just tells everybody she left
00:58:48  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
00:58:56  <Bjarni> that's the first thing I said
00:59:01  <Bjarni> when he told that she left
00:59:31  <Bjarni> "why didn't you just hide your Asian girl in the basement like everybody else?" or something like that
00:59:43  <Bjarni> Sacro: you never answered that one
01:00:06  <Bjarni> Sacro: that XP RAM trick... did you test it yourself?
01:00:16  <Gonozal_VIII> yes... there are so many asian girls and they all looke almost the same... nobody notices if some of them are missing
01:00:34  <Bjarni> except the parents but they are too far away
01:00:36  <fjb> Can somebody please give me a hint what action I have to look for so that newstations grf uses the right sprites instead of always the maglev ones?
01:01:09  <Gonozal_VIII> that's a bug
01:01:54  <Gonozal_VIII> maglev tracks shouldn't even be accessible
01:02:16  <fjb> I guessed that it is a bug. There should be a way to fix it. But a hint which action is responsible for that bug would be great.
01:02:33  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think it's a bug in the grf
01:02:46  <fjb> All other station sets are using the replacement tracks.
01:02:50  <Gonozal_VIII> unless it comes with its own maglev tracks...
01:03:29  <fjb> Oh, hm looks like it has some maglev track sprites in that grf.
01:03:47  <fjb> How was that with the copyright? :-)
01:03:57  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
01:04:12  <Gonozal_VIII> he always talks about copyright issues
01:04:20  <Bjarni> Sacro: you are avoiding the questions
01:04:30  <Gonozal_VIII> he went feeding her
01:04:49  <Bjarni> really?
01:04:56  <Bjarni> that's the 2nd time today
01:05:01  <Gonozal_VIII> some rotten fish, asian chicks dig that
01:05:10  <fjb> We should avoid Sacro and get back to grf questions.
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01:09:36  <Gonozal_VIII> now you broke the channel again
01:10:13  <fjb> Sacro broke it.
01:10:23  <Bjarni> but he is not even here
01:10:28  <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: afaik it's a known problem that station graphics need the track hardcoded in it
01:10:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> same as bridge graphics
01:10:48  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm no
01:10:54  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause2: I don't think so.
01:11:01  <Gonozal_VIII> most don't have that
01:11:12  <Gonozal_VIII> like industrial stations
01:11:33  <fjb> newstations is the only grf that I know about having that bug.
01:11:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> anyway, MB talked about that problem somewhere
01:12:05  <Gonozal_VIII> well... newstations is from mb
01:12:23  <Eddi|zuHause2> geee... who'd have thunk :p
01:13:01  <Gonozal_VIII> stations are stacked sprites first track then station
01:13:20  <Gonozal_VIII> he would just have to add some blue
01:13:45  <fjb> The question is now if there is an easy fix. Most of the station sprites don't have track graphics, they have transparent sections. So there should be no problem to display the right track graphics.
01:14:18  <fjb> It looks pink, I think that are transparent parts.
01:14:19  <Gonozal_VIII> did you decode it?
01:14:22  <fjb> Yes.
01:14:24  <Gonozal_VIII> no
01:14:33  <Gonozal_VIII> blue is transparent
01:14:44  <fjb> What is pink then?
01:14:55  <Gonozal_VIII> special stuff
01:15:25  <fjb> The question is what special stuff that is.
01:15:26  <Gonozal_VIII> try to change the pink to blue ;-)
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01:16:20  <fjb> Hm, does ImageMagic have a filter for things like that?
01:16:29  <Gonozal_VIII> gimp does
01:16:31  <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: pink usually means wrong pallete
01:16:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> try unpacking with -p 2
01:17:56  <Gonozal_VIII>
01:17:56  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause2: It is the windows grf.
01:18:07  <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: exactly
01:18:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> -p 2 means windows palette
01:18:34  <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Thank you. I also made a palette for gimp already.
01:19:18  <Gonozal_VIII> i even named the colours ;-)
01:20:25  <fjb> Hm, ok, I didn't do that.
01:20:34  <Bjarni> you named it Bob?
01:20:48  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
01:21:16  <Gonozal_VIII> the action colours like transparent, water cycle, company...
01:21:48  <Gonozal_VIII> fire cylce :D
01:22:02  <Gonozal_VIII> i'll have to use that some time^^
01:22:06  <Bjarni> hehe... I get your point
01:22:13  <Bjarni> nobody names colours Bob
01:22:18  <Bjarni> you named it Fred
01:22:24  <Gonozal_VIII> yep :D
01:22:35  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm
01:22:36  <Gonozal_VIII> !
01:22:40  <Gonozal_VIII> bob is robert!
01:22:44  <Gonozal_VIII> that's my name!
01:23:22  <Bjarni> so naturally a colour named Bob could only be yellow?
01:24:07  <Gonozal_VIII> :S
01:24:19  <Bjarni> :P
01:24:19  <Gonozal_VIII> yellow?
01:24:32  <Gonozal_VIII> i named magenta telecom :-)
01:24:57  * Bjarni scratches his head
01:25:04  <fjb> Ok, there is less pink in the sprites now.
01:25:05  <Bjarni> telecom?
01:25:10  <Gonozal_VIII> they copyrighted it
01:25:23  <Bjarni> heh
01:25:31  <Bjarni> how can you copyright a colour?
01:25:36  <Bjarni> it's a wavelength
01:25:36  <Gonozal_VIII> they can
01:25:57  <Gonozal_VIII> but only for use in advertising...
01:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> they didn't copyright it, they trademarked it
01:26:26  <Eddi|zuHause2> it's a difference
01:26:30  <Gonozal_VIII> ok?
01:26:32  <glx> like orange
01:26:38  <fjb> The problem seams to be that he provided sprites for all track types with snow and without snow. So I guess he doesn't use the track sprites that the game provides but always his own.
01:26:43  <Bjarni> here the railroad company got asked for the RGB values in their signs and they said that it's a secret and copyrighted to them so he were not allowed to use that info anyway
01:26:53  <Bjarni> they copyrighted blue?
01:27:03  <Gonozal_VIII> they should do that with all colours, then there would be much less ads everywhere^^
01:27:09  <fjb> They didn't trademark it, but they tried to do it and failed.
01:27:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> fjb: honestly, i have no information about wether they failed or not
01:28:20  <Bjarni> what would happen if you watch a commercial on your TV and the colours on your TV is wrong so it's in the colour copyrighted to some other company?
01:28:38  <Eddi|zuHause2> Bjarni: different thing, art, i.e. the composition of colours, is bound to copyright
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01:28:52  <Gonozal_VIII> the advertising company would have to buy you a new tv then
01:30:05  <Bjarni> cool
01:30:20  <Bjarni> right now the colours are way off
01:30:23  <Bjarni> they are gone
01:30:38  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
01:30:55  <Bjarni> transformer started burning :o
01:31:10  <Bjarni> so I'm without a TV
01:31:17  <Gonozal_VIII> your tv is a transformer? :O
01:31:28  <Bjarni> yeah
01:31:34  <Gonozal_VIII> i thought they were only cars and trucks
01:31:37  <glx> like all CRT
01:31:44  <Bjarni> 230V->whatever voltage the tube used
01:32:19  <Bjarni> TVs tend to die in the high voltage part
01:32:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> i like your usage of the word "used" ;)
01:32:30  <Bjarni> well the dangerous versions of dying anyway
01:32:46  <fjb> I hate hexcode.
01:32:47  <Gonozal_VIII> so it transformed into a robot, walked away and got shot by some guys with flamethrowers?
01:33:00  <glx> "modern" TV have a safety stuff to prevent implosion
01:33:20  <Bjarni> actually it transformed into something foul smelling and smoking and I unplugged it and ran outside with it
01:33:40  <Gonozal_VIII> the glass at the front is much thicker than at the back, if something goes wrong, it's at the back
01:33:57  <Eddi|zuHause2> honestly, the only TV that we threw away did not die, the brightness reduced after like 15 years of use, so it became unwatchable during daytime
01:34:07  <Bjarni> actually I'm not scared of explosions but flames would be bad
01:34:08  <Eddi|zuHause2> so we bought a new one
01:34:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> but computer monitors appear to die much faster
01:34:26  <Gonozal_VIII> never had any dying tvs either
01:34:32  <Eddi|zuHause2> usually in the power supply part
01:34:34  <Gonozal_VIII> only suffering..
01:34:38  <glx> higher refresh rate
01:35:27  <Bjarni> I(if you include the family TV when I was younger) have had 3 TVs that started burning
01:35:46  <Bjarni> all of them by just a foul smell and then nothing because it was unplugged
01:35:52  <Bjarni> became unplugged
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01:35:56  <Gonozal_VIII> i would blame your wiring or the power company for that
01:35:59  <Bjarni> I think I'm unlucky :(
01:36:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> i have like 4 broken monitors around here
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01:36:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> where one is not really broken, only when it was switched off, it sometimes needs an hour to switch on
01:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> so it just sits around in suspend instead
01:36:29  <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: not all of them died in the same building
01:36:32  <Gonozal_VIII> shy
01:36:35  <Bjarni> let alone the same town
01:36:53  <ln-> Bjarni: do you have a cat?
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01:37:18  <Bjarni> no
01:37:19  <Gonozal_VIII> don't blame it on cats, cats rock!
01:37:23  <ln-> ok
01:37:27  <Bjarni> it's not a pet issue
01:37:59  <glx> next time use an UPC ;)
01:38:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> my guinea pigs used to chew on the wire-isolations ;)
01:38:16  <Bjarni> UPC?
01:38:22  <Gonozal_VIII> do you have long hair and a long beard and happen to lay your head onto the air intakes a lot?
01:38:32  <Bjarni> lol
01:38:36  <Bjarni> no :)
01:39:02  <glx> hmm ups (I failed to remember the name)
01:39:16  <Gonozal_VIII> cupply :-)
01:39:18  <Bjarni> oh you mean power surge protection?
01:39:37  <Bjarni> I have that NOW
01:39:40  <Gonozal_VIII> that too i guess
01:40:00  <Bjarni> UPS is surge protection+battery power
01:40:11  <Bjarni> surge protection is spike protection only
01:40:17  <Bjarni> the latter is much cheaper
01:40:40  <Gonozal_VIII> i know, i know
01:41:01  <Gonozal_VIII> but it could bypass the battery if there is energy available or something like that^^
01:41:16  <Bjarni> yeah
01:41:35  <Bjarni> the power supply is usually a perfect sine curve
01:41:43  <Bjarni> the output from the battery is not
01:42:00  <Bjarni> it makes the computer CPU buzz :s
01:42:07  <ln-> UPSes aren't exactly expensive either
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01:42:30  <Bjarni> a single UPS for common use is way cheaper than even a cheap computer
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01:42:48  <Bjarni> and when you upgrade your computer you can keep the UPS
01:43:01  <Gonozal_VIII> remove the transformer from the pc and attach the battery directly...
01:43:05  <Bjarni> the battery usually lasts 6 years if you aren't using it much
01:43:34  <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: I wondered about that but it would void the warranty
01:43:43  <Bjarni> there is no DC output on the UPS either
01:43:59  <ln-> and considering how short most power outages are -- only 1 to 2 seconds -- even an old battery does fine.
01:44:09  <Gonozal_VIII> or use a laptop...
01:44:14  <Bjarni> having an UPS rocks. I got so tired of disconnecting the computer every time we had thunder
01:44:33  <Gonozal_VIII> i never do that...
01:44:56  <Bjarni> I know a guy who lost a computer due to lightning
01:45:06  <Gonozal_VIII> i would attach the modem and router to the ups^^
01:45:10  <Bjarni> the lightning hit the power cables and travelled into the computer and fried everything
01:45:26  <Gonozal_VIII> all power cables are underground in my town
01:45:27  <Bjarni>  <Gonozal_VIII> i would attach the modem and router to the ups^^ <-- I already did that
01:45:36  <Bjarni> and used it to contact the power company when the power died
01:45:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, wood output reduced drastically, i had to take 3 trains out of the cycle
01:45:58  <Gonozal_VIII> we have a telephone that works without power
01:46:01  <Gonozal_VIII> just in case^^
01:46:24  <Bjarni>  <Gonozal_VIII> all power cables are underground in my town <-- but not the transformer. You aren't 100% secured
01:46:58  <Bjarni> besides I bought the UPS before they put the cables into the ground here
01:47:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> we thought about putting up a diesel powered generator
01:47:08  <Bjarni> me too
01:47:13  <Gonozal_VIII> transformer is 5km away... i don't think the lightning would travel that far and end up in our house
01:47:16  <Bjarni> I even looked at one
01:47:30  <Bjarni> and decided that it shouldn't be that one
01:47:51  <glx> <Gonozal_VIII> we have a telephone that works without power <-- we had that, but now we have IP-Phone
01:47:52  <Bjarni> it was brand new but I couldn't tell who made it so I asked the shop and guess what:
01:47:58  <Bjarni> it was a trading secret
01:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, we have the fuel for the heating anyway
01:48:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> we wouldn't need another tank, just the generator next to the boiler
01:48:32  <Gonozal_VIII> it's one of those phones where you have to put your finger through a hole in a wheel and spin it :-)
01:48:56  <Bjarni> ohh... you would use the light oil (used for heating) for the generator?
01:49:01  <Bjarni> that's banned here
01:49:14  <glx> I still have this kind of phone, but can't use it now
01:49:17  <Bjarni> you are allowed to use diesel for heating though
01:49:39  <Bjarni>  <Gonozal_VIII> it's one of those phones where you have to put your finger through a hole in a wheel and spin it :-) <-- I have some of those too
01:49:48  <Gonozal_VIII> some?
01:50:05  <Bjarni> and I know one who stopped using one because it generated so much noise that it killed the ADSL
01:50:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'm not sure what you call "light oil", but it's the same consistence as diesel, except the colour
01:50:09  <Bjarni> well... two I think
01:50:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> i know it's forbidden to power cars with heating oil, but i don't know about generators
01:50:49  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: it's light oil considering the alternative is fuel oil and you can use a shovel to move that. It's tar like
01:51:16  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: I think they included all stuff that's officially diesel powered
01:51:51  <Bjarni> you see the difference between the heating oil and diesel is that the heating oil is not as pure and not taxed that hard
01:51:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> shovel? no, that's not what we have in the basement
01:52:20  <Gonozal_VIII> fuel oil
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01:52:59  <Gonozal_VIII> btw you can move water with a shovel too...
01:53:05  <Bjarni> there is an oil powered steam locomotive in Germany that is brought to pressure by burning wood. Then it uses the steam to heat up the oil and once the oil is at least 50°C they can start pumping it to the firebox
01:53:06  <Gonozal_VIII> i have to do that a lot
01:53:09  <orudge`> Over here in Britain, you get "red diesel", which is basically the same as normal diesel, but is used for agricultural things (and is not taxed so highly). I think something similar is done for heating oil
01:53:10  <Gonozal_VIII> it sucks
01:53:10  <Bjarni> they have to heat it first
01:53:21  <Bjarni> or else it's too thick for pumping
01:53:48  <Gonozal_VIII> they do that with salt
01:54:00  <Bjarni> heat it with steam?
01:54:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> orudge`: "heating oil" is coloured red here, "diesel" is coloured green
01:54:09  <Bjarni> or colour it?
01:54:13  <Gonozal_VIII> they put iron oxide in to make it red and sell it cheaper for ice removal on roads
01:54:27  <Bjarni> heating oil is coloured green here and diesel isn't coloured
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01:54:50  <Bjarni> I think
01:54:52  <Gonozal_VIII> diesel is green?
01:55:00  <Gonozal_VIII> didn't know that
01:55:01  <orudge`> I learned the other day that diesel is banned in Brazil in cars. It's allowed in trucks, etc, though
01:55:15  <Bjarni> that's interesting
01:55:21  <Gonozal_VIII> and no, i won't put diesel in my car just to see if it's green
01:55:38  <orudge`> I think there's some EU directive that wants to harmonise colourings in diesel, etc
01:55:51  <orudge`> or so wikipedia told me, if memory serves correctly
01:55:57  <Bjarni> if diesel is green in Germany and heating oil is green in Denmark because if they think you are cheating they will check the tank on your car for green liquid
01:56:08  <Bjarni> and if they find any then you are considered a cheater
01:56:35  <Gonozal_VIII> solution: don't drive to denmark
01:56:42  <Bjarni> sounds like it
01:56:52  <Bjarni> but that's stupid that they picked colours like that
01:57:07  <orudge`> as long as none of you dye regular car diesel red, I guess
01:57:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> i guess it's a different kind of green
01:57:14  <orudge`> :p
01:57:27  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: hopefully
01:57:48  <Gonozal_VIII> black :-)
01:57:55  <Bjarni> liquid coal
01:57:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> i learned that one liter of red heating oil can dye thousands of liters of diesel red
01:58:15  <Bjarni> some Australian once designed a steam locomotive to use liquid coal
01:58:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> so when you cheated once with heating oil, you can see that even after several regular refills
01:58:28  <Gonozal_VIII> liquid coal wtf
01:58:29  <Bjarni> it was never built because nobody could figure out how to produce liquid coal
01:58:36  <Gonozal_VIII> hehehe
01:58:42  <Gonozal_VIII> that sucks^^
01:58:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> i learned that coal sublimes
01:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> i.e goes directly from solid to gas when you heat it
01:59:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> (without ability to burn)
01:59:29  <Bjarni> sounds right
01:59:40  <Bjarni> you heat it up and burn the gasses that escapes from it
01:59:44  <Gonozal_VIII> and when you cool it down you get coal crystals?
01:59:45  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
01:59:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: coal crystals = diamonds
02:00:06  <Bjarni> cool
02:00:08  <Bjarni> I got to try that
02:00:09  <Gonozal_VIII> different structure...
02:00:16  <Gonozal_VIII> sp3 hybrid :-)
02:00:20  <Bjarni> damn
02:00:46  <Bjarni> btw you really burn the gasses in the coal
02:01:00  <Gonozal_VIII> but usually stuff that goes directly from gas to solid forms crystals
02:01:11  <Bjarni> if you dig up coal and let it lie on the ground for a while before using it then the gasses will escape and you can't get the expected heat from it
02:01:34  <Bjarni> I know of two cases where steam locomotives got problems burning old coal
02:01:48  <Gonozal_VIII> [03:00:46] Bjarni: btw you really burn the gasses in the coal <-- you make it sound like you ONLY burn the gasses... carbon burns fine too
02:02:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: but not solid carbon, you have to break out the carbon from the structure
02:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> the main problem here is the initial energy it takes to get the coal structure to break up
02:03:13  <Gonozal_VIII> yes... i guess if the engine design bases on those gasses to start the fire it's a bad thing
02:03:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> which is the old coal problem bjarni mentioned
02:03:33  <Bjarni> I saw an locomotive (I think it was called ACE3000). It was designed to burn the coal to CO and then at a different place in the firebox it added more oxygen and burned the CO to CO2
02:03:35  <Gonozal_VIII> that's the reason for the 15% gas in e85
02:03:40  <Bjarni> that's another engine they never built
02:04:14  <Gonozal_VIII> what would be the use of that?
02:04:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> Bjarni: trucks used that method to get fuel from wood after WWII
02:04:25  <Bjarni> after?
02:04:30  <Bjarni> we used it during the war
02:04:38  <Bjarni> even for trains :)
02:04:47  <Gonozal_VIII> why for trains?
02:04:53  <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't matter how it burns there
02:04:54  <Bjarni> also for trains
02:04:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, during times of lack of regular fuel ;)
02:05:24  <Bjarni> the big trains used coal and the small ones that used oil could be converted
02:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: problem is that you can't get wood or coal into engines built for burning oil
02:06:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> where oil= diesel or gasoline
02:06:36  <Bjarni> the principle is pretty simple. You have a fire with a lot of air that heats up some wood that burns with very little air (those two chambers are not connected but heat can move between them) and then you get CO from the low air fire
02:06:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> so you fire up the wood in a separate place, with lack of oxygen, get CO which you can compress and feed the engine
02:06:51  <Bjarni> it cuts the engine max output in half compared to if it uses petrol
02:07:23  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause3: basically yes
02:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, the effectivity gradient can't be very good ;)
02:08:16  <Bjarni> when burning C to CO it releases 30% of the energy and the remaining 70% are released when burning CO to CO2
02:08:23  <Gonozal_VIII> i guess how much the output is reduced depends on how much of the heat can escape
02:09:18  <Gonozal_VIII> at least 30% then...
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02:09:39  <Bjarni>  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, the effectivity gradient can't be very good ;) <-- it got nothing to do with the effectivity gradient. The engine can't supply more than half it's power when supplied with enough CO simply because CO is a worse fuel than petrol
02:10:10  <Bjarni> the engine don't care how much energy you waste when producing CO
02:10:19  <Gonozal_VIII> should have used alcohol instead :-)
02:11:46  <fjb> Ups, action 0 with a size of 25k.
02:12:08  <Gonozal_VIII> wtf?
02:12:24  <fjb> In newstations grf.
02:12:52  <fjb> 26 * 20509	 00 04 01 01 05 09 FF E0  ...
02:13:04  <Gonozal_VIII> now that's some coding style^^
02:13:24  <Gonozal_VIII> btw it's 20,5k
02:13:46  <fjb> Oh, ok. Then it looks much easier.
02:14:21  <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> should have used alcohol instead :-) <-- but alcohol were in short supply as well
02:14:47  <fjb> Even better: 34 * 58269	 00 04 01 01 11 09
02:14:54  <Gonozal_VIII> wtf
02:15:41  <Gonozal_VIII> sure you didn't do something wrong with the decoding?
02:16:13  <fjb> grfcodec -t -p 2 -d newstatsw.grf
02:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> why -t?
02:16:29  <Gonozal_VIII> what's -t?
02:16:55  <fjb> Because it gave me lots of strange characters without.
02:16:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> if -t does what i think it does, it is bad
02:17:06  <Bjarni> <-- finally found a picture of a generator. It's the horizontal metal thingie. The lower part were the fire with the high supply of air. The top were the low supply of air. Every 30 km (or less) they had to add more wood to the top and once they opened it a whole lot of smoke and CO went strait into their faces
02:17:18  <fjb> -t        Disable decoding of plain text characters as strings.
02:17:18  <Gonozal_VIII> strange characters are norma
02:17:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> -t prevents the conversion of strings into readable format
02:17:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: try nforenum
02:18:20  <Gonozal_VIII> yay, co is healthy
02:19:02  <Gonozal_VIII> attaches itself to the blood and keeps it from transporting oxygen
02:19:39  <Gonozal_VIII> and everybody knows that oxygen plays a key role in aging
02:19:59  <fjb> But the action 0s stay that big, even if I don't use -t...
02:20:25  <Gonozal_VIII> i guess there's a lot of text in them
02:20:40  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm
02:20:48  <Gonozal_VIII> or not..
02:20:53  <fjb> That doesn't look like text.
02:21:10  <fjb> Looks like ordinary nfo code.
02:21:19  <Bjarni> goodnight
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02:21:25  <Gonozal_VIII> night
02:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it just contains a lot of data
02:21:30  <Gonozal_VIII> 2l8
02:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't see the problem in that...
02:21:41  <fjb> Oh, that was too much for Bjarni.
02:21:44  <Gonozal_VIII> he should have splitted that...
02:21:53  <Gonozal_VIII> buuuut
02:21:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> why would he?
02:22:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not meant for anyone to read
02:22:21  <fjb> So what action puts the sprites together?
02:22:31  <Gonozal_VIII> my idea for the map array that i talked about having earlier today goes in the same direction
02:22:42  <fjb> I think he is using some macros.
02:22:48  <Gonozal_VIII> some nfo in the map^^
02:23:30  <Gonozal_VIII> number of things in that tile... and then it reads them
02:23:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: variable sized data doesn't fit into arrays very well...
02:24:03  <Gonozal_VIII> the array has only a pointer for every tile
02:24:23  <fjb> Oh, it must be somewhere in that action 00s...
02:24:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> of course, but having pointers defeats most of the advantages of having an array
02:24:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: i would suggest reading
02:24:52  <Gonozal_VIII> you have to keep those pointers somewhere^^
02:25:34  <Gonozal_VIII> and then that pointer leads somewhere telling that the tile contains x things
02:25:49  <Gonozal_VIII> and it starts reading those x things
02:26:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: the biggest advantage of having arrays is allocating in one step and caching big areas of continuous data, that is likely to influence your local calculations
02:26:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> pointers remove both these advantages
02:27:19  <Tefad> rawr why'd those jalapenos have to be so fresh on my sandwich
02:27:22  <Tefad> my mouth, it burns.
02:27:30  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't know enough about the data types available in c++
02:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: it doesn't have much to do with C++
02:27:54  <Tefad> STL has vectors queues deques...
02:29:23  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: I'm already reading it. Understanding everything and mathing it with the hexcode in the grf is the problem.
02:30:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> fjb: inserting newlines and comments usually helps
02:31:15  <fjb> And I should really try to make an own grf to understand more about it.
02:31:29  <Gonozal_VIII> anyways... the pointer of each tile in the array would point to a array for that tile, those arrays consist of 1 - x fields with 8 bit each
02:32:08  <Gonozal_VIII> how many fields depends on how many "things" are stacked there and the type of those
02:33:06  <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Did you think about how much memory one pointer requires?
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02:33:51  <Gonozal_VIII> so you have 4 million pointers in a 2*2k map then... who cares?
02:34:09  <Tefad> 8-16MB
02:34:19  <Tefad> wait i'm off by a factor of two
02:34:24  <Tefad> 16-32MB
02:34:27  <fjb> Each pointer is 4 to 8 bytes long.
02:34:55  <Gonozal_VIII> memory is really not a problem...
02:35:05  <Tefad> depends on the platform
02:35:34  <fjb> Too much for embedded platforms.
02:35:42  <Gonozal_VIII> can't run such a big map anyways
02:36:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> the problem is not memory
02:36:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> the problem is that the data the pointers point to are fractioned all across the memory
02:36:37  <fjb> And you always have to derefence each pointer.
02:36:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> so the caching effects go "flöten"
02:36:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> and caching can easily make a speed factor of 20-100
02:37:34  <Gonozal_VIII> what always fjb?
02:37:44  <Gonozal_VIII> you don't change the map all the time
02:37:57  <Gonozal_VIII> most of the time it's only read
02:38:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> imagine a tileloop like the ones used for station catchment area
02:38:42  <fjb> Even each time you read a tile you have to follow that pointer.
02:38:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> you have like a 20x20 area of tiles that you walk each time
02:39:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> in a normal array, you can get these cached
02:39:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> so you have one big memory access
02:39:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> and all the others only access the fast cache
02:39:26  <Gonozal_VIII> why can't you cache pointers?
02:39:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you have pointers, the data the pointers point to is completely randomly distributed
02:39:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> so in the worst case, each pointer access causes a cache miss
02:40:18  <fjb> You can cache the pointer, but not all the memory regoins where the data is located that the pointer is pointing at.
02:40:48  <Gonozal_VIII> that's only one array... that shouldn't be scattered all around
02:41:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> the array is not scattered
02:41:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> but you have to malloc each pointer individually
02:41:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> and each of these mallocs can return a random memory location
02:42:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> you have no guarantee that the data of tile x is in close proximity of the data of tile x+1
02:42:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> especially if you realloc space in case the tile changes
02:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> like if the tile was empty, and used few memory, then there is a house built, and it uses much memory
02:42:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> you need to realloc for the larger memory space
02:43:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> but that new data doesn't fit in the old memory "window"
02:43:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> so you need a place where you have big memory free
02:43:19  <Gonozal_VIII> yes then it's somewhere else... but does it really take so long to access a pointer?
02:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> at completely different location of the previous
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02:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, like i said
02:43:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> cache misses take often 20 to 100 times longer
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02:44:09  <fjb> Going from 4GHz to 400Mhz. :-)
02:44:41  <fjb> And additional overhead.
02:44:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> you not only have to fetch the data from the slow memory
02:45:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> but also the cache will get a whole cache line (like 64kb) instead of that 10 byte you ordered
02:45:48  <Gonozal_VIII> hardware sucks...
02:46:01  <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Invent something better.
02:46:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> it gets worse if you hit virtual memory
02:46:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> that makes a speed loss of like factor 1000000 ;)
02:46:47  <fjb> Oh yeah...
02:47:11  <fjb> Swapping is fun.
02:47:26  <Gonozal_VIII> so basically the map array is stuck at being an array?
02:47:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, two arrays actually ;)
02:47:47  <fjb> It has some advantages if it stays an array.
02:47:48  <Gonozal_VIII> lots of arrays...
02:48:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: it is feasible if you divide the map into "supertiles" of like 16x16 or so
02:48:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> and then have pointers between these
02:48:35  <fjb> And I'm giving up on tht newstations grf.
02:49:58  <Gonozal_VIII> abuse array space of different tiles^^
02:50:34  <Gonozal_VIII> tiles that get too long store part of their information in other tiles^^
02:51:05  <fjb> And if that tile changes?
02:51:09  <Gonozal_VIII> gets messy if the other...
02:51:12  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
02:51:40  <Gonozal_VIII> hashing^^
02:52:16  <fjb> Then you end up with pointers again.
02:52:21  <Gonozal_VIII> nah
02:52:27  <Gonozal_VIII> just some rules where to look
02:52:36  <Gonozal_VIII> inside the same array
02:52:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can get cache misses inside the same array
02:53:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> not the whole array fits into the cache
02:53:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> the whole point of a cache is LOCAL access
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02:53:38  <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't have to split the stuff through the whole array
02:53:51  <Gonozal_VIII> like your 64*64 thing
02:54:03  <Gonozal_VIII> 16*16^^
02:54:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> the problem with your attempt is that if you e.g. have a house in a tile, and want to swap data to near tiles, the near tiles are most likely houses, too
02:55:08  <Gonozal_VIII> houses are no problem, houses fit in
02:55:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> houses are currently the biggest tiles
02:55:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> so instead you should have a 16x16 array of basic data
02:55:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> and if you have a house you create a new 16x16 array of house specific data
02:56:14  <Gonozal_VIII> but a tile that has for example a maglev track with owner 1 on one corner, monorail with owner 2 on second, different signal on each tile, a tunnel with signals below and a bridge with signals above won't fit^^
02:56:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> or if you have a subway layer, you are likely to have subway tiles in the near area, too
02:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> so you open a new 16x16 array of subway tiles, which are the same as rail tiles
02:57:50  <Gonozal_VIII> and that's not inefficient? pointer again...
02:58:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's only 1/256 amount of pointers
02:58:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> you only need one pointer per 16x16 area
02:58:31  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm yes...
02:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a tradeoff, less pointers, for possibly more "unused" memory space
02:59:20  <Gonozal_VIII> you should make that a compile option :-)
02:59:31  <Gonozal_VIII> big or small base array
02:59:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> the main point is to keep the locality principle
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02:59:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you want to cycle nearby tiles, you need to stay in the same cache row
03:00:14  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't know anything about cache rows
03:00:35  <De_Ghost> they are like magical elfs
03:00:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> 16x16 supertiles possibly do that even better than the whole map, because the map has that locality only in one dimension
03:00:54  <Gonozal_VIII> i know
03:01:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> but it complicates memory management
03:02:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> because for a tile access you can't have a simple arithmetics anymore (start+index*itemsize)
03:02:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> but you have to find out, in which supertile your tile is, and then also which layer of that supertile
03:03:42  <Gonozal_VIII> shouldn't be too hard to calculate that
03:03:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> not, hard, but slower
03:08:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: it is quite probable that smatz already did such a thing with his tunnel patch
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03:09:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> i didn't actually look at it
03:09:52  <Gonozal_VIII> with dynamic space you could do all kinds of fancy things...
03:10:37  <Gonozal_VIII> can't even imagine all the possibilities
03:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, everything that assumes distribution is sparsely over the map, but dense locally
03:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> it is entirely feasible that you have a map layer for each company
03:12:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> which means you can reduce the saving of "owner" bits in the map
03:12:12  <Gonozal_VIII> :-)
03:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> as this is done implicitly
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03:13:40  <Gonozal_VIII> would be no problem to have for example crossings with tracks of a different company... and different tracktype even
03:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it will complicate "compatibility" checks
03:14:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> as you have to cycle all defined layers for this tile
03:15:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> to get an idea what is actually currently on this tile
03:15:15  <Gonozal_VIII> only for placing rail... you do that once
03:15:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> also for drawing
03:15:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> you do that often
03:15:49  <Gonozal_VIII> drawing has to access all layers anyways
03:16:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> or for pathfinder access, which gives penalties for road crossings
03:17:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> but honestly, i would suggest you to read smatz's patch first
03:17:47  <Gonozal_VIII> all that pointers are bad stuff makes me a sad gono
03:18:45  <Gonozal_VIII> also i have a test in about 6h....
03:18:51  <Gonozal_VIII> software engineering
03:19:02  <Gonozal_VIII> should probably be sleeping
03:19:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> software engineering does not teach much about the efficiency of pointers ;)
03:19:58  <Gonozal_VIII> nope
03:20:14  <orudge`> hm, my last exam was software engineering. Went better than I expected
03:20:22  <fjb> But you should be sleeping anyway.
03:20:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> all you need to know is the waterfall model and the V model, and one or two design patterns
03:21:49  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
03:22:03  <Gonozal_VIII> not to forget the spiral model...
03:22:13  * Belugas congrats orudge
03:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> only if you want to get 1.0 and impress the professor ;)
03:22:32  <Gonozal_VIII> our professors improved that one... so i'm quite sure that will come...
03:23:07  <orudge`> well, have to wait for the results now :p
03:23:30  <Gonozal_VIII> i should have learned instead of coding...
03:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> you have seveal proffessors working on the same subject?
03:23:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> +r-f
03:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> or rather s/al prof/ral pro/
03:24:48  <Gonozal_VIII> two...
03:27:37  <Gonozal_VIII> night....
03:27:56  <Belugas> orudge: 1) you performed 2) you were prepared enough to find it easier
03:28:05  <Belugas> makes it a pretty good sing in my book :)
03:28:09  <Belugas> sign
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03:34:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r12018 /trunk/src/ (main_gui.cpp transparency_gui.cpp tree_cmd.cpp): -Fix(FS#1721,r9563): Restore initial intent on the invisible tree while transparent building patch setting
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03:36:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> i have a diesel/electric mismatch
03:37:08  <orudge`> Belugas: true, we'll just have to see ;)
03:37:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> i have around the same electric local trains as diesel local trains
03:37:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> i have around half electric long distance trains as diesel long distance trains
03:37:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> but i have twice as many electric freight trains as diesel freight trains
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03:43:50  * Belugas is gone sleeping
03:43:51  <Belugas> see you
03:47:19  <orudge`> ta at
03:47:21  <orudge`> *ta
03:55:00  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: Why do you care for that?
03:55:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> care for what?
03:55:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a statistical oddity
03:57:07  <fjb> Electric trains are often more powerful.
03:57:23  <fjb> What train set are you using?
03:58:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> DBSetXL
04:00:08  <fjb> I guess I would have even more electric locomotives with that set.
04:01:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, it's kind of a problem that diesels do not have as much diversity
04:02:36  <fjb> I don't see that as a problem. Diesels are for branch lines and not yet electrified main lines.
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04:03:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, but at almost any time there is a differentiation for local electrics, long distance electrics and freight electrics
04:03:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> but only one diesel engine
04:04:34  <fjb> In which year is your game?
04:04:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> and "realistically" only a small part of the system should be electrified in the early times
04:04:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> i am 1967 right now
04:05:12  <fjb> Then you should have the V100 and V200.
04:05:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, i know which engines i have ;)
04:05:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> but V100 is only suitible for slightly used branch lines
04:06:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> i hardly have any of those
04:06:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> (very few towns, very few industries)
04:06:15  <fjb> There were not that more diesels in reality beside the shunters.
04:07:10  <fjb> V200 for fast trains, V100 for local service.
04:07:44  <fjb> Heavy freight trains were still hauled by steam engines.
04:08:03  <fjb> Or electric engines ofcourse.
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04:08:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> i got rid of all steam engines by now
04:08:38  <fjb> They are expensive to use.
04:08:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> i use V100 for "collecting" freight trains, and a few side line local passenger trains
04:09:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> V200 for local trains on main lines, express passenger trains and "delivering" freight trains on main lines
04:09:34  <fjb> I tried to talk MB into adding some more diesels or BR 23 for the 50s and early 60s.
04:10:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think i read that
04:10:22  <fjb> There is a gap for branch lines before the V100 comes out.
04:10:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, i noticed that
04:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> the V140 disappears very fast
04:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> and has very short lifetime
04:11:32  <fjb> V80 would be nice. Or even starting earlier V36. That could be used in double traktion.
04:11:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> only like 15 years compared to the ~45 years of most other engines
04:12:01  <fjb> V140 is crap. It was only experimental and not used in reality.
04:12:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, but it is a diesel engine, and it is available ;)
04:12:22  <fjb> It was a proof of concept, only one build.
04:12:40  <fjb> But it is not that useful in the game.
04:12:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> to my understanding, only the war stopped a series ordering of that engine
04:13:50  <fjb> Yes, but the V140 would have to be modified for the big orders. And it would have been longer availlable in the set then.
04:14:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> and, not everything must be 100% realistic, there are also gameplay issues to balance
04:14:26  <fjb> There could be a better usable machine with that few ids that TTD has.
04:15:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> but V140 could be used on branch lines until V100 comes out
04:15:01  <fjb> V140 was not production ready in real and it is too short availlable in game.
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04:15:37  <fjb> But you can not buy one when you need one. Try to buy a machine for branch lines 1960.
04:15:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i have no real use for VT 95, because passenger amounts even in villages is too big
04:16:28  <fjb> VT 95 is nice to get a line started, or for the passenger destinations patch.
04:16:40  <fjb> And you can buy it longer.
04:17:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> but the physics engine does not like VT 95 + undriven Trailer
04:17:09  <fjb> But what du you use on a branch line when you have to pull a freight train in 1960?
04:17:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> it can't even get to max speed
04:17:40  <fjb> Start downhill. :-)
04:18:27  <fjb> Did the V95 have an undriven trailer? Hm, maybe it had one. Or was that also driven?
04:19:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> MB's site says traditionally it had one driven and one undriven part
04:19:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> and the later series could be steered from the undriven wagon
04:20:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, i have a branch line featuring VT 95 in quadruple-traction ;)
04:21:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> (replaced BR 38 + 2-axle wagons)
04:21:28  <fjb> Don't let MB catch you.
04:22:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> why? i have seen such trains
04:22:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> trains consisting of 4 or more "railbusses"
04:22:28  <fjb> I would vote for V80 and BR 23 to add to the set.
04:22:40  <fjb> But that were not VT95.
04:22:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> unlikely, yes, as they were in east germany ;)
04:23:01  <fjb> VT98 maybe.
04:23:10  <fjb> :-)
04:25:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> VT 11 is available very short...
04:26:02  <fjb> MB said they are availlable longer in TTDP.
04:27:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, i have a feeling that OTTD has shorter availability times than are stated in the readme
04:27:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> my oldest engines i have are some ET 87 and E 16
04:28:15  <fjb> Frosch said that OpenTTD follows the specs. So the specs are wrong or TTDP has a bug.
04:28:24  <fjb> E16 is nice.
04:29:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> E 16 is nice, but it doesn't have nice liveries for long distance trains, not even mitropa wagons
04:29:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> and there isn't E 18 to make up for that
04:30:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> so E 10 is the first real long distance electric engine
04:30:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> and that's a damn long time
04:30:38  <fjb> E18 is in version 0.9 of that set.
04:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, but do you have version 0.9 of that set? ;)
04:31:15  <fjb> E16 is also for long distance. And the trains at that time were green, at every distance.
04:31:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, green, sure, but that red wagon inbetween makes the difference ;)
04:31:57  <fjb> No, only a few betatesters have. And I have the feeling we don't see version 0.9 this year.
04:34:08  <fjb> Coding that hex codes lasts ages. I don't know if MB uses some preprozessor and macros. But I almost doubt it so fluent how he is in nfo.
04:35:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think i have more E 94 than E 50
04:35:53  <fjb> Hm, takes ages.
04:36:07  <fjb> E94 are cheaper.
04:36:28  <fjb> I tried to talk MB into BR151.
04:36:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> what is that?
04:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> apart from a freigt engine ;)
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04:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> i only know the east german 251, which was a 25kV/50Hz engine for the RÃŒbelandbahn
04:40:17  <fjb> It is the successor of BR 150.
04:40:25  <fjb> It is still in wide use.
04:40:57  <fjb> Kind of a freight version of BR 103.
04:41:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> the RÃŒbelandbahn stopped using electric traction
04:41:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> i guess mainly because of the decline of the industry in the area
04:41:21  <fjb> I know, I read about it.
04:41:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> the last thing i heard was that the engines should be sold to romania or something
04:43:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> there is not much use for a 25kV engine in germany ;)
04:43:57  <fjb> They have an unsual electric system as far as I know.
04:44:02  <fjb> :-)
04:45:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, the RÃŒbelandbahn was very far away from the usual electric rail system, so it couldn't be fed with 15kV and 16 2/3 Hz, so they took 25kV/50Hz from the local power station
04:46:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think i went once with that train
04:46:46  <fjb> That was the easy part. But all locomotives had to be modified.
04:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> not modified, they built new engines
04:47:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> they used steam engines before
04:49:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think they still have one such steam engine in RÃŒbeland
04:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> and they kept two electric engines in Blankenburg
04:49:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> (other end of that track)
04:50:15  <fjb> But they didn't make a completely new engine design.
04:51:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i don't know the specifics
04:51:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> but it would be a stupid thing to do ;)
04:52:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> besides, other countries built 25kV/50Hz engines previously
04:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not like it's a new technology
04:53:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> 16 2/3 Hz was originally used to reduce sparks in the engines
04:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> with newer technology, that was unnecessary
04:53:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> only by then it was too late to switch all existing engines to 50Hz
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04:59:14  <fjb> 16 2/3 Hz technology is kind of a problem today.
05:01:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> there was kind of a funny issue, the phase-modificators wouldn't work when they got too close to 16 2/3, so it was changed to 16,7 instead ;)
05:01:55  <fjb> :-)
05:02:26  <fjb> There is no processor with 666 MHz.
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05:05:55  <fjb> Hm, I'm unable to paint isometric graphics in gimp.
05:06:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> i'd use vector graphics and export them
05:07:39  <fjb> I'm trying now. That looks mouch easier. But how will it loke like in TTD size?
05:07:46  <fjb> look
05:09:38  <fjb> Inkskape uses Gimp palettes. That saves some work.
05:10:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> downscaling will cause problems, i am pretty sure of that ;)
05:11:17  <fjb> How big is a tile? 64 x 32 pixels?
05:11:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> might be
05:14:28  <fjb> So I could take a pictures all vour sides of a nice building, apply them to some rectagles, transform them to the isometric view and then scale them down to 50 x 25 pixels. :-)
05:14:34  <fjb> four
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05:23:00  <fjb> Good night.
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10:13:06  <SmatZ> hello
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10:28:08  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12019 /trunk/src/ (ai/default/default.cpp engine.h newgrf.cpp table/engines.h): -Codechange: Add support for passenger engine designation for AI-use, NewGRF property 0x08 for trains.
10:40:03  <roboman> gnight
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12:40:59  <yorick> hello
12:41:07  <SmatZ> hello yorick
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12:42:17  <yorick> hello brianetta
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12:53:33  <Brianetta> yorick
12:53:41  <yorick> ?
12:53:51  <Brianetta> [12:42] <yorick> hello brianetta
12:54:13  <Brianetta> Simply acknowledging your presence (:
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12:54:37  <yorick> I just joined and you joined the next minute
12:55:35  <keyweed> hello everyone.
12:56:27  * yorick is trying to find out what the connection to is
12:57:12  <a1270> 6697 is a common ssl IRC port.
12:57:43  <yorick> but why is stunnel connecting to it
12:58:29  <a1270> maybe for bnc?
12:58:38  <yorick> for what?
12:58:56  <SmatZ> hello keyweed
12:59:16  <SmatZ> yorick: maybe IRC server is testing your computer
12:59:28  <a1270> an IRC bouncer. Basically allows you to use a stable server as an IRC proxy.
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13:01:34  <yorick> I cant connect to it...[14:01] *** Socket Error (10053: The connection was terminated due to a time-out or other failure)
13:02:04  *** yorick [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
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13:03:29  <yorick> it seems to connect to another server each time
13:03:58  <hylje> trojans!!
13:04:16  <a1270> yeah, probably just BNC(irc bouncer).
13:04:23  <yorick> k
13:04:47  <yorick> dunno why, because it isn't used only for irc
13:05:08  <yorick> used for pop3s, smtps and https
13:05:27  <a1270> yeah
13:05:34  <yorick> I have lunch now
13:05:36  <yorick> bye
13:05:46  *** yorick is now known as Yorick|AFK
13:06:16  <SmatZ> maybe open proxy check from IRC server
13:06:17  <SmatZ>
13:07:43  *** Leviath [] has joined #openttd
13:15:43  <a1270> is a node on oftc. Time for me to sleep.
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13:33:46  <LA[lord]> hmm.. Anyone to comment this?
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13:57:43  <Gonozal_VIII> it's me!
13:57:47  <Gonozal_VIII> run!
13:57:48  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
13:58:19  * hylje sens Gonozal_VIII running
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13:58:23  <hylje> sends*
13:59:08  <Gonozal_VIII> nooooo sports kill!
14:01:25  <Gonozal_VIII> i should rename my make.bat to break.bat....
14:01:45  <Tefad> : D
14:03:22  <Gonozal_VIII> yay unmovables with halfdesert :D
14:03:39  <hylje> :o ?
14:04:08  <Gonozal_VIII> my patch works for all ground types now, including halfdesert :-)
14:04:55  *** neli [] has joined #openttd
14:05:16  <Gonozal_VIII> well ok... not all, hilly and rocky get changed to flat...
14:05:26  <hylje> so
14:05:30  <hylje> what have you done
14:05:40  <Gonozal_VIII> a lot :-)
14:05:49  <Gonozal_VIII> i'll upload new patch
14:06:12  <Gonozal_VIII> yesterdays version without halfdesert is on flyspray
14:09:30  *** Tefad_ [] has joined #openttd
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14:11:55  <Gonozal_VIII> and new version is on flyspray too
14:12:09  <Gonozal_VIII>
14:14:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> i should start replacing those i Wagons...
14:14:36  <Gonozal_VIII> i wagons?
14:14:47  <keyweed> Apple iWagons!
14:14:48  *** Tefad [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
14:14:48  <Gonozal_VIII> apple builds wagons now?
14:14:51  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
14:15:35  <Gonozal_VIII> i was at a train station today...
14:15:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> as opposed to Ì wagons, i wagons have no protection at the connection between two wagons
14:15:46  <Gonozal_VIII> and they had two trains on the same platform!
14:15:52  <Gonozal_VIII> with signals in between!
14:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> signals in between? i have not seen that
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14:16:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> although i do have seen multiple trains per station
14:16:39  <Gonozal_VIII> platform 1a and 1b and signals
14:17:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i did not specifically look for signals
14:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> DRG Bi Personenzugwagen   braungrÃŒn   1925   40 Pass.   8   140   Typ "DonnerbÃŒchse"
14:18:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> as opposed to
14:18:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> DRG AB4Ì-26 Schnellzugwagen   Fernverkehr   56 Pass.   7   160   Typ "Hecht"
14:18:55  <Gonozal_VIII> and the name is related to the noise level inside?
14:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> A is first class
14:19:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> B is second class
14:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> C is third class
14:19:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> ÃŒ means "Übergang"
14:19:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> 26 is the building series
14:19:39  <zrah_> what does ubergang mean?
14:19:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> 4 is the number of axles
14:19:44  <Gonozal_VIII> "DonnerbÃŒchse" <-- that^^
14:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> zrah_: Übergan means that you can go from one wagon to the next
14:20:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> +g
14:20:12  *** zrah_ is now known as zrah
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14:20:36  <Gonozal_VIII> it sucks when people do that a lot in very full trains
14:20:54  <Gonozal_VIII> and you stand next to the door and have to let them pass all the time...
14:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> it sucks when people write in bold
14:21:26  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm?
14:21:37  <Gonozal_VIII> i write bold?
14:22:12  <Gonozal_VIII> or who?
14:22:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> "Übergang" as opposed to very old segmented wagons, where you could not even go from one segment to the next except when stopped at a station
14:22:14  <Yorick> [b]?[/b]
14:22:21  <Yorick> how did you write bold?
14:22:22  <glx> bold is bad
14:22:36  <Gonozal_VIII> whoooo writes bold
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14:22:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> which was dangerous for the conductors, because they had to go outside of the wagon, while the train was driving
14:23:12  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
14:23:22  <murray> <div style="font-weight: bold;">?</div>
14:23:41  <glx> it's worse like this
14:23:55  <Gonozal_VIII> that's just two squares for me^^
14:24:32  <Ballard> Hello i seach a howto to create a server on linux. anyone can help me?!
14:24:49  <glx> wiki is your friend :)
14:25:07  <Yorick> tell me how to write bold :)
14:25:11  <Gonozal_VIII>
14:25:26  <glx> Yorick: ctrl-b
14:25:37  <Ballard> ah Thanks :)
14:25:51  <Gonozal_VIII> ctrl-k for kolour :D
14:26:50  <glx> colour is not allowed here
14:27:14  <keyweed> bah. colour. *spits*
14:27:56  <Yorick> ?
14:28:06  <Yorick> yaay
14:28:14  <Yorick> ?
14:28:19  <Gonozal_VIII> look at what i ceated people! look!
14:28:22  <Yorick> no color
14:28:23  <Forked> hide_colors = ON .. mmm irssi
14:29:18  <murray> bell_beps = ON
14:29:41  <Gonozal_VIII> for me, everything is arial bold font size 10 and black
14:30:06  <blathijs> Forked: Yeah, that's a wonderful feature. Wonder if you can hide boldness and inverted stuff as well, it's nearly as annoying..
14:30:19  <Tefad_> client strips out color codes for me
14:30:27  <Tefad_> some IRCd can strip color with +S
14:30:35  <Tefad_> dunno if this one supports that
14:30:36  *** Tefad_ is now known as Tefad
14:30:43  <Forked> others can just deny you using colours on a channel :)
14:30:51  *** Ballard [] has quit [Quit: Trillian (]
14:30:54  <Tefad> +c sometimes
14:31:01  <glx> blathijs: and underline ?
14:31:10  <Yorick> works:)
14:31:10  <Gonozal_VIII> oh, i see underline
14:31:25  <Gonozal_VIII> underline
14:31:30  <Yorick> .?
14:31:38  <Yorick> italic?
14:32:05  <hylje> .
14:32:13  <Gonozal_VIII> what's italic?
14:32:21  <Tefad> weeblarghohnoeswtfer?AHH!
14:32:35  <Tefad> hmm apparently that isn't the right control code : x
14:32:40  <Tefad>
14:32:43  <Tefad> ruuuugha
14:32:44  <Yorick> bolditalicunderline
14:32:50  <Yorick> ctrl-I
14:32:52  <Tefad> isn't ital
14:33:00  <blathijs> Ah, hide_text_style does the trick
14:33:05  <Tefad> hehe
14:33:12  <Gonozal_VIII> how did you write that ohnoes? that's not bold for me... everything should be bold for me
14:33:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> italic isn't officially supported, afaic
14:33:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> as ^I is also the <TAB> character
14:33:43  <Tefad> hows this Gonozal_VIII?
14:33:52  * Forked puts channel on mental ignore for 30 minutes
14:33:57  <Gonozal_VIII> square followed by normal text
14:34:02  <glx> :*
14:34:11  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
14:34:12  <Tefad> that control code is rather common for IRC..
14:34:17  <Tefad> and now?
14:34:23  <Gonozal_VIII> stop messing with fonts, look at my patch :P
14:34:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> stop it, please?
14:34:29  <Gonozal_VIII> all of you
14:34:37  <Yorick> weeblarghohnoeswtfer?
14:34:42  <Yorick> ok
14:34:54  <Yorick> nice patch?
14:34:55  <Tefad> i see ctrl+] there
14:35:07  <Gonozal_VIII> :P
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14:35:33  <glx> <Gonozal_VIII> stop messing with fonts, look at my patch :P <-- you started it
14:35:40  <Gonozal_VIII> did not!
14:35:55  <Yorick> [15:20] <Gonozal_VIII> it sucks when people do that a lot in very full trains
14:36:02  <Yorick> 15:21] <Gonozal_VIII> i write bold?
14:36:07  <Yorick> so you did
14:36:15  <glx> [15:19:45] <Gonozal_VIII> "DonnerbÃŒchse" <-- that^^
14:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... weird... it's 1968 and the E 10 carries TEE wagons, but the V200 cannot refit its wagons to TEE...
14:36:23  <glx> was the first line
14:36:25  <Gonozal_VIII> i still can't see that any different to the other text i wrote
14:36:37  <Gonozal_VIII> am i still writing bold?
14:36:38  <Yorick> [15:36] <+glx> [15:19:45] <Gonozal_VIII> "DonnerbÃŒchse" <-- that^^
14:36:40  <Yorick> no
14:36:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: that is due to your inferior client
14:36:51  <glx> Yorick: it is bold here
14:37:09  <Yorick> Gonozal_VIII stopped writing bold...
14:38:30  * Yorick is using HydraIRC v0.3.160 (4/May/2007) - Grab it from
14:39:03  <Yorick> [15:36] <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: that is due to your inferior client
14:39:23  <Gonozal_VIII> he was talking to me
14:39:35  <Gonozal_VIII> i use trillian and that sucks for irc
14:39:45  <Yorick> good you know that...
14:39:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> yay for totally useless highlight (again)
14:39:59  <Andel> I use mirc
14:40:01  <Gonozal_VIII> but i don't want to use a second program just for one channel
14:40:46  <Yorick> I'm on more servers than 1...
14:41:44  * Yorick has 6 channels open :)
14:41:53  <Gonozal_VIII> i used to be too, had mirc then but now i'm only on oftc and only in this channel, no need to use seperate program (i use trillian for msn messenger and icq)
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14:44:20  <fjb> Hi
14:44:25  <Gonozal_VIII> hi
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14:46:38  <fjb> How big is the 2D projection of a tile? 64 x 32 pixels?
14:47:14  <Tefad> 31 i think
14:47:17  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm that function getunmovableground has nothing to with unmovables... i should probably rename it to getground and move it somewhere more accessible
14:47:45  <Gonozal_VIII> then it could be used for other stuff too :-)
14:48:10  <Yorick> 64x37, I think
14:48:10  <fjb> Tefad: Is that documented anywhere?
14:48:22  <Gonozal_VIII> i wrote that function
14:48:23  <Tefad> no idea
14:48:36  <Gonozal_VIII> ah tefad^^
14:48:59  <fjb> The projection doesn't use the mathematical correct 30°. It is more like 27°.
14:49:28  <Gonozal_VIII> you don't have any halfpixels...
14:49:46  <Gonozal_VIII> so it's probably 22,5°
14:49:57  <fjb> Or maybe that.
14:50:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not 22,5°
14:50:28  <Gonozal_VIII> well, i don't know^^
14:50:29  <fjb> But how many pixels heigh and wide is a tile then?
14:51:02  <Gonozal_VIII> look at a sprite..
14:51:13  <Gonozal_VIII> btw what do you want to do?
14:51:21  *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
14:51:24  <fjb> I want to paint some things.
14:51:41  <Gonozal_VIII> use existing sprites for the dimensions
14:52:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> 26.56505118°
14:52:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> arctan(1/2)
14:52:34  <Gonozal_VIII> ok^^
14:52:59  <Gonozal_VIII> i never liked that sin cos tan stuff
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14:53:19  <Gonozal_VIII> would have to remember what to use where... and my memory sucks
14:54:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> well it's 2 pixels to the side and 1 up
14:54:17  <Gonozal_VIII> i know
14:54:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> gegenkatete/ankatete -> tangens
14:54:43  <Gonozal_VIII> see... that's the stuff i can't remember
14:54:45  <fjb> So 27° wasn't that bad.
14:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> but isometric view uses 2 along the diagonal, and 1 up
14:55:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> gegenkatete/hypotenuse -> sin
14:55:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> makes 30°
14:55:47  <hylje> memory triangle
14:55:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> just that is bad on pixel rasters
14:57:33  <fjb> And I'm counting 64 x 32 pixels again.
14:57:49  <Gonozal_VIII> there's no perspective either, tiles are same size everywhere on the screen but that doesn't matter
14:58:28  <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: That is still a king of perspective.
14:58:32  <fjb> kind
14:58:45  <ben_goodger> isometric perspective is a kind of perspective
14:58:55  <ben_goodger> you're thinking of vanishing point perspective
14:59:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> isometric is a parallel perspective
14:59:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a vanishing point perspective where the "horizon" is infinitely far away
14:59:46  <Gonozal_VIII> yes yes, i've learned and drawn that...
15:00:03  <Gonozal_VIII> i'm just saying that the view is not realistic
15:00:13  <ben_goodger> of course it's not, it's isometric
15:00:14  <Gonozal_VIII> and it doesn't matter
15:00:49  <Gonozal_VIII> you would need flat eyes as big as the map to see it like that^^
15:00:57  <fjb> But it matters how big things are if you try to paint them.
15:01:00  <ben_goodger> if it were realistic it'd have to be done with realtime-rendered polygons, and I doubt even chris sawyer could have written that sort of thing
15:01:25  <Belugas> fick realism
15:01:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you want "real" perspective, you need a sophisticated 3D rendering engine
15:01:44  <ben_goodger> precisely
15:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> afaik there was like a PS2 version that did that
15:02:12  <ben_goodger> the new 32 bit graphics are quite realistic in their way
15:02:37  <Gonozal_VIII> now i'll try to get coast grapics :-)
15:02:52  <fjb> Gonozal_VIII: Paint them.
15:03:09  <Gonozal_VIII> not get them in that sense
15:03:18  <Gonozal_VIII> get them to be drawn under unmovables
15:03:39  <fjb> Ah
15:04:06  <Gonozal_VIII> there's no desert coast and no snowy coast, right?
15:04:15  <fjb> And I'm trying to paint a building. Thought that wouls be easiest to begin with.
15:04:48  <LA[lord]> Gonozal_VIII: right
15:04:59  <ben_goodger> does anyone actually play the desert/snowy climates?
15:06:25  * fjb did.
15:06:29  <LA[lord]> arghh.. maybe I shouldn't have picked the combined roadset to code for opengfx+ right now.. I havent't made any actionA nor realsprites yet and it is already as big as this Only skipping sprites engine there :P
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15:06:51  <fjb> Desert gets me psychedelic.
15:06:51  <LA[lord]> and defining parameters and action08
15:07:28  <ben_goodger> fjb: if only it were that simple for the rest of humankind
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15:08:00  <fjb> ben_goodger: Tell everybody to play TTD. :-)
15:08:23  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm no coasts defined in sprites.h
15:08:37  <ben_goodger> I used to play that big preestablished scenario quite a lot in my youth, I never achieved any kind of altered mental state.. :(
15:08:44  <fjb> LA[lord]: Are you writing in hex codes or do you have some kind of macros?
15:08:48  <LA[lord]> hmm.. actually, if two grfs are loaded which modify the same things then the last defined will get priority?
15:09:24  <LA[lord]> fjb: copy-paste and modify
15:09:25  <LA[lord]> :P
15:09:29  <fjb> ben_goodger: Just stare long enough at that orange wasteland.
15:09:43  <Gonozal_VIII> there's no priority... it just gets overwritten
15:09:43  <LA[lord]> although it took me a while to think of the solution too :P
15:10:46  <LA[lord]> so I even if road sprites get defined twice (by opengfx AND opengfx+) then the last grf in list overwrites the first one?
15:11:29  <Yorick> yes
15:11:36  <LA[lord]> ok.. that's good
15:11:47  <Gonozal_VIII> no that's not good
15:11:52  <LA[lord]> why?
15:11:53  <Gonozal_VIII> bad style :P
15:11:59  <ben_goodger> fjb: heh
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15:12:38  <LA[lord]> I should then add action07 to opengfx grf to skip some sprites if + version is avilable?
15:12:46  <Yorick> yes
15:13:02  <LA[lord]> but that can be done later too
15:13:29  <LA[lord]> because currently Zephyris has all sources of opengfx grfs
15:13:40  <Gonozal_VIII> + version has everything that the other has too?
15:14:15  <LA[lord]> umm.. yes I guess.. or it extends it.. I dunno. Currently it is a separate grf
15:14:27  <LA[lord]> because I define more road sprites
15:15:09  <Gonozal_VIII> you could merge that and add a parameter to activate + stuff
15:15:25  <LA[lord]>
15:16:03  <LA[lord]> I think separate is better
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15:16:09  <Gonozal_VIII> or just deactivate the normal grf is + is or will be loaded... action 7 can do that
15:17:11  <LA[lord]> yes, but then the extended grf has to offer EVERYTHING
15:17:31  <LA[lord]> but currently it changes road sprites
15:17:57  <Gonozal_VIII> ah... then just skip the road stuff in the normal if + is active
15:18:00  <LA[lord]> currently the opengfx infrasturcture has tunnels and rails etc.
15:18:09  <Gonozal_VIII> same action 7 but with number of sprites set instead of 00
15:18:30  <LA[lord]> yes
15:18:37  *** gfldex_ is now known as gfldex
15:18:56  <LA[lord]> but then I would need to change the opengfx grf.
15:19:06  * LA[lord] wrote: "but that can be done later too"
15:19:29  <Gonozal_VIII> it's a single line, can't be too hard^^
15:19:39  * LA[lord] wrote: "because currently Zephyris has all sources of opengfx grfs"
15:19:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> <ben_goodger> does anyone actually play the desert/snowy climates? <- i play alpine climate
15:20:04  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmmm
15:20:22  <Gonozal_VIII> did you test my patch in alpine eddi?
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15:21:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> no
15:22:24  <Gonozal_VIII> if i can include the coast sprites i can move it to a different place and use it for placing rail too :-) then you get rail with snow and halfdesert and stuff
15:23:10  <Gonozal_VIII> not just snow... the right ammount of snow
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15:25:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> i dislike how the E 10 changes livery unconditionally, no matter what colour/build year wagon i attach to it...
15:26:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> livery for engines should be done as refit options, just without cargo
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15:27:11  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmm some set has that
15:27:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> so i can choose "High Speed Electric", "Rheingold II", "TEE" and stuff manually
15:27:57  <LA[lord]> ok.. I changed the 'engine' once more.. Now I'm sure I don't have to define duplicate sprites :) And I hope this is the most optimized way :)
15:28:07  <LA[lord]>
15:28:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> the refit options for wagons are bad anyway, they look at build year of the wagons, not year that the refit is done
15:28:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> so i cannot just recolour wagons, i need to sell and rebuild them
15:29:21  <Gonozal_VIII> what's up with that -1 * 00 stuff?
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15:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> "-1 * 00" means "let grfcodec figure this out"
15:30:23  <Gonozal_VIII> hard to find stuff without spritenumbers...
15:30:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> you have comments ;)
15:30:37  <Gonozal_VIII> i put the nfo through renum from time to time
15:30:43  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't do comments^^
15:31:33  <Gonozal_VIII> no need for comments, that's what i use grf2html for
15:32:09  <peter1138> :o
15:32:13  <peter1138> ukts is full of comments
15:32:21  <Belugas> -t+r
15:32:28  <peter1138> ukts
15:32:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i still can't get my V200 driven trains TEE coloured
15:32:38  <Belugas> -??
15:32:45  <peter1138> uk tram set
15:32:50  <Gonozal_VIII> ah
15:32:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> but the readme says i can
15:32:52  <Belugas> arghhh
15:33:01  * Belugas flees the scene
15:33:19  <Gonozal_VIII> then the readme is a filthy liar
15:33:53  <Belugas> and so does ECS, but in another way (commented)
15:33:57  <Gonozal_VIII> now you made me forget what i wanted to do
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15:34:07  <peter1138> ecs' comments are... *urgh*
15:34:17  <peter1138> i see no point in action ... C is it?
15:34:37  <Gonozal_VIII> i wouldn't dare trying to modify anything in the ecs grfs...
15:34:37  <peter1138> it probably makes the grf twice as big ;)
15:34:38  <LA[lord]> Eddi|zuHause3" -1 * 00" means "let grfcodec figure this out" >> let nforenum figure this out :P
15:35:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> action 0C is like compiling with debug symbols...
15:35:28  *** Osai is now known as Osai`off
15:35:34  <Gonozal_VIII> just put it through renum from time to time and you have linenumbers that make sense instead of that -1 stuff
15:36:00  <LA[lord]> "it probably makes the grf twice as big" that's why it's good to have commented source, but not commented grf
15:36:31  <LA[lord]> Gonozal_VIII: I have still ** comments.. I'm afraid renum will give hundred errors on that..
15:36:52  <LA[lord]> and I orientate by comments :P
15:37:02  <Gonozal_VIII> again, no need for comments, grf2html does a better job at commenting
15:37:19  <Belugas> [10:38] <@peter1138> ecs' comments are... *urgh*  <--- totally agree.  And not really relevant, only more like separators
15:37:23  <Belugas> or even reminders
15:37:26  <Belugas> not for us
15:37:30  <Belugas> the real parts are...
15:37:41  <Belugas> too evident to be commented ;)
15:37:43  <Belugas> yeah right...
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15:38:11  <LA[lord]> Gonozal_VIII: Then I need to have grf, but I can't compile/put through grf2html all the time
15:38:18  <LA[lord]> I'm coding it.."live"
15:38:34  <Gonozal_VIII> why can't you do that?
15:38:41  <Gonozal_VIII> i have my bats for that
15:39:21  <Belugas> wonderfull creatures indeed
15:39:22  <Gonozal_VIII> from time to time i start it, it compiles and generates html, i refresh tha browser page and look
15:39:27  <Belugas> but so delicate wings..
15:39:30  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
15:39:33  <Gonozal_VIII> .bat^^
15:40:15  <ben_goodger> posixscript ftw
15:40:19  <LA[lord]> because I can't modify it from html
15:40:35  <LA[lord]> and to know what I'm doing I need comments
15:40:41  <LA[lord]> so I know where I am
15:40:48  <Gonozal_VIII> i have the browser and the texteditor open at the same time
15:41:19  <Gonozal_VIII> there are sprite numbers to see where you are..
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15:43:24  <Gonozal_VIII> btw you do a lot of skipping based on climate there...
15:43:30  <Gonozal_VIII> you could combine that
15:43:43  <Roujin> hello there
15:43:49  <Gonozal_VIII> a block for temperate, block for arctic...
15:43:51  <Gonozal_VIII> hi
15:44:23  <Gonozal_VIII> and no need to use labels there :-)
15:44:42  <LA[lord]> I want to
15:46:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> I CAN HAS LABEL PLZ?
15:46:20  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
15:46:33  <LA[lord]> If I would connect climate specific ones then I would need duplicates of parameter specific ones
15:47:40  <LA[lord]> Eddi|zuHause3: And if I have set label 01 for example skipping to end in case of toyland then I could not skip 1 sprite with action07?
15:47:53  <Roujin> question - how many different cargos could a town tile produce?
15:48:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> how should i know?
15:48:05  <LA[lord]> pax/mail
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15:48:09  <LA[lord]> more?
15:48:19  <Roujin> nah, newGrf houses can produce what they want
15:48:36  <Roujin> (i think tourist is the only one actually used by a newgrf tho)
15:49:06  <Roujin> question is, how many different cargos is the maximum...
15:49:11  <Gonozal_VIII> rumors are mb is working on houses producing other stuff
15:49:56  <SmatZ> like trash
15:49:57  <Roujin> because some functions are currently still assuming houses only produce max two cargoes..
15:50:16  <Gonozal_VIII> they should stockpile
15:50:19  <Roujin> i stumbled over this while working on a patch of mine..
15:51:01  <Gonozal_VIII> no dropping all passengers into a single house...
15:51:17  <Roujin> namely GetProductionAroundTiles if any dev is interested *cough*
15:51:21  <Roujin> ;)
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15:51:51  <SmatZ> :)
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15:52:04  <mcbane>
15:52:09  <Gonozal_VIII> ah i remember what i wanted to do.... coasts!
15:52:33  <Gonozal_VIII> wrote it down now :-)
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15:52:53  <Roujin> only no one would ever notice it ingame because the player doesn't have a display for supplied cargo (that's where i'm making my patch) and the AI works only with pax/mail acceptance when building town routes
15:53:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, i have at least 16 unconnected stubs along my tracks
15:53:40  <Gonozal_VIII> then remove them
15:53:52  <Roujin> with my patch and activated TTRS+ECS town vector, the hotels caused gibberish output, so i started investigating and finally found the issue in the code - sooo
15:54:35  <Gonozal_VIII> sooooo fix it ;-)
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15:55:58  <Amis> hey, can anybody tell me whats the Close All Window hotkey?
15:56:07  <Gonozal_VIII> esc
15:56:10  <Roujin> del
15:56:12  <Amis> and where can i see the list of hotkeys
15:56:14  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm
15:56:18  <LA[lord]> wiki?
15:56:22  <Amis> ingame?
15:56:24  <Gonozal_VIII> i use it all the time but got it wrong^^
15:56:35  <Amis> so del
15:56:38  <Amis> thx
15:57:08  <glx> with shift or ctrl to close sticky windows
15:57:45  <Roujin> well dirty fix = just increase number to something higher
15:58:15  <Roujin> proper fix = make the whole thing flexible like acceptedcargo
15:58:59  <Amis> and: is there any option where i can turn off the setting that make the new vehichles's window appear at duplicating? its annoying when i make 6 aircraft than i have 6 new window (and some other what i dont want to close right now but not sticky)
15:59:47  <Roujin> none that i know of..
16:00:21  <Roujin> and i cloned roadvehs like 40 times in my last game so.. i know what you mean :D
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16:01:03  <Amis> and any chance that this will be added to next patch? where can i post it, wheres the wishlist
16:03:42  <Digitalfox> I hate all this Windows live stuff.. It used to be so simple to download MSN messenger until 8.1, now 8.5 brings all that crap of live services that i don't care or need and it doesn't work for windows server 2003 :(
16:04:28  <Digitalfox> It's like you're on Internet 2 or you're out of the game :(
16:04:44  <Belugas> [11:05] <Amis> and any chance that this will be added to next patch?   <-- patch?  what next patch?
16:05:00  <Gonozal_VIII> digitalfox... use trillian
16:05:53  <Digitalfox> Gonozal_VIII: But i love MSN and all my friends also use it.. Portugal is one of the most MSN users of the world..
16:06:06  <LA[lord]> use some other client
16:06:08  <Gonozal_VIII> trillian supports msn
16:06:14  <Gonozal_VIII> and icq
16:06:16  <Gonozal_VIII> and irc...
16:06:19  <Gonozal_VIII> and lots of stuff
16:06:30  <Digitalfox> didn't know about that o_O
16:07:08  <Digitalfox> And does it fully support msn network or only text part?
16:07:08  <Gonozal_VIII> and no annoying crap from msn all the time...
16:07:11  <LA[lord]> Gonozal_VIII: I notuíced some mistakes, commented properly the ** comments and ran it through linter.. And I got only one error..
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16:07:20  <Amis> Belugas> i ment the next version :), so where is the wishlist if there is any?
16:07:41  <LA[lord]> suggestions forum
16:07:53  <LA[lord]>
16:07:57  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:08:29  <Gonozal_VIII> well, you don't have any sprites there
16:09:00  <LA[lord]> I know
16:09:04  <LA[lord]> it's intentional
16:09:19  <Gonozal_VIII> that's where the error comes from...
16:09:22  <LA[lord]> now you see why I can't codec it?
16:09:26  <LA[lord]> I KNOW
16:09:28  <LA[lord]> !
16:09:39  <Amis> so... i have to open a suggestion... then members will suggest it... and if it happens that a dev click on the thread and understand what i want... whats the chance it will be added?
16:09:52  <Belugas> Amis: indeed forum is the wishlist, or a feature request in
16:10:00  <LA[lord]> depends on the feature
16:10:02  <Amis> whichone is better
16:10:06  <Belugas> and of the mood the devs
16:10:17  <LA[lord]> or other patch-makers
16:10:18  <Belugas> and th pertinence and ease to do
16:10:23  <Belugas> that too :)
16:10:31  *** Osai`off is now known as Osai
16:10:32  <LA[lord]> lot's of patched have started from suggestions forum
16:10:50  <Amis> its easy easy im sure, just an if (turned off) i wont add window, something like that :)
16:10:51  <Gonozal_VIII> bah, forgot what i wanted to do again... good thin that i wrote it down
16:11:05  <Roujin> sooo my question from before remains.. how many cargoes could a newgrf house produce?
16:11:08  <keyweed> and when jupiter is in sagittarius, does that help?
16:11:31  <LA[lord]> nope
16:11:42  <LA[lord]> that has NO effect on (what?)
16:12:02  <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't matter, that has no effect on anything
16:12:05  <Roujin> if its limited to some number (say 3 or 4 or even 10) i won't bother making the whole stuff flexible like accepted_cargo
16:12:16  <Roujin> but just make it static to that number
16:12:21  <Gonozal_VIII> well, max is 32
16:12:36  <Gonozal_VIII> maxmax...
16:12:36  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
16:12:43  <keyweed> as a last resort you can try sending beer and/or sushi to devs. that usually helps.
16:12:56  <peter1138> beer?
16:13:00  <peter1138> where?
16:13:15  <Gonozal_VIII> sending sushi per mail? i don't think they would be happy about some rotten fish
16:13:46  <Tefad> sushi credit?
16:13:51  <Belugas> [11:15] <Amis> its easy easy im sure, just an if (turned off) i wont add window, something like that :)  <-- can you show me your diff?
16:13:55  <Tefad> if i were a dev i wouldn't accept either of those "payments"
16:14:30  <Belugas> [11:15] <Roujin> sooo my question from before remains.. how many cargoes could a newgrf house produce? M<- as many as the specs specify
16:19:21  <Roujin> well i seem to be unable to find where this is specified - a friendly hint would be much appreciated
16:20:37  <Roujin> i delved into the ttdpatch wiki and found which callback and which action and so on is used for custom cargo production, but no word about how many custom cargoes it can produce _/
16:21:45  <Belugas>
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16:23:23  <Belugas>
16:24:16  <Roujin> thanks - erm isn't that about acceptance of the house? i'm looking for the production tho...
16:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> i know nobody who uses MSN
16:26:12  <LA[lord]> What is SIGSEV signal in linux?...Well that just happened with kwrite...
16:26:14  <Gonozal_VIII> i do
16:26:29  <LA[lord]> and I lost some work
16:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> LA[lord]: SIGnal SEgmentation Violation
16:26:49  <LA[lord]> ok
16:27:09  * LA[lord] didn't understand, but tries to make a smart face
16:27:18  <Roujin> i think i found it.. the hardcoded limit seems to be 256
16:27:43  <Roujin> thanks for the link belugas
16:27:47  <Belugas>
16:28:03  <Belugas> you really do not know how to search :(
16:28:04  <Roujin> yep, in that section i just found it
16:28:22  <Belugas> it's that or you do not understood what the specs are saying
16:28:54  <Belugas> twon_cmd.cpp:436
16:29:05  <hylje> :o
16:30:14  <LA[lord]> :o @ hylje
16:30:14  <LA[lord]> what happened?
16:30:35  <hylje> wut?
16:30:57  <hylje> i resumed being lazy
16:31:08  <LA[lord]> ok
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16:32:05  <UnderBuilder> war tycoon anyone? lol
16:32:10  <hylje> haha
16:32:17  <hylje> support the war effort!
16:37:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... rebuilding signals from semaphore to electric is a bitch...
16:38:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> the signal gui helps, but you still get insane by clicking on each signal individually
16:38:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can't drag and drop it, like the railtype conversion
16:39:27  <UnderBuilder> hmmm... what about trains that when they reach a certain speed they warp to some railways near the other station
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16:40:05  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: I do it like in reality. I'm only replacing old signals when the signals or tracks are changing.
16:40:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is called "tunnel"
16:40:42  <Gonozal_VIII> signal convert tool should be dragable...
16:41:03  *** anhedral [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:42:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> is that not what i said?
16:42:25  *** Osai [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:43:30  *** Ammler [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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16:43:56  <LA[lord]> baaaaaah!!! :(
16:44:13  *** Mucht [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:44:13  *** hylje [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
16:44:15  <LA[lord]> Zephyris wrote: "You don't need to use parameters for the driving side, there is is an action7 variable for that (86)., but apart from that looks good"
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16:44:22  <LA[lord]> Few hours gone waste
16:44:48  <LA[lord]> The ironic thing is that I was aware of that var
16:45:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> <fjb> Eddi|zuHause3: I do it like in reality. I'm only replacing old signals when the signals or tracks are changing. <- yeah, but i was like "hey, let's electrify this track, and while here, electrify the signals as well"
16:46:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> hey, now i can make TEE wagons!
16:48:27  * fjb is still in the steam aera.
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16:50:12  <fjb> I want to have an european passenger stations set with narrow gauge support.
16:51:17  <peter1138> TEE wagons? what?
16:52:13  <fjb> peter1138: Trans Europe Express
16:53:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, what is a V160 useful for?
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16:55:39  <peter1138> fjb, but wagons?
16:56:04  * peter1138 is British, where wagon is freight and carriage is passenger...
16:56:49  <peter1138> dbsetxl's engines are frustrating
16:57:01  <peter1138> there's little obvious improvement over time
16:57:19  <peter1138> but that's "realism" over game-play :o
16:57:23  <hylje> ze german got it right first time in
16:57:55  <peter1138> well, ukrs addons has a 90mph electric loco at the start
16:58:07  <peter1138> hence being in the addons
16:58:16  <hylje> what's ze point
16:58:20  <peter1138> YES!
16:58:24  <peter1138> we need to start slow :)
16:58:49  <Gonozal_VIII> wtf ze?
16:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, improvement is there pretty obvious from 1920 until ~1960, but then it stops somehow
16:59:20  <hylje> physics
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16:59:58  <Gonozal_VIII> efficiency of electric engines can't be improved much more and stronger engines are not needed in europe...
16:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> in the beginning there should be more differentiation between freight and passenger engines
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17:00:15  <fjb> peter1138: dbset has E16 early in the game (but not at the beginning).
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17:01:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> dbset is leaving out E18
17:01:43  <fjb> MB thought E18 would be out of balance for the set. But it will be in v0.9 of the set.
17:02:15  <fjb> There are already screen shots of it on his website.
17:02:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, i have seen those
17:03:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> but V160 looks like a step back from the V200
17:03:14  <fjb> I'm more missing the cheap and slow engines in the 50s and 60s.
17:04:05  <fjb> V160 is replaced by BR 218 in the new set.
17:04:51  <fjb> I'm missing V80 or even V60.
17:05:08  <fjb> And the set gets ab bit boring after 2000.
17:06:05  <fjb> But the new version of the set will have a new EMU after year 2000.
17:06:33  <hylje> in the year two thousaaaaand
17:08:54  <fjb> BR425
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17:09:39  * Eddi|zuHause3 holds a flashlight under his chin
17:10:04  <LA[lord]> Eddi|zuHause3 is a weirdo
17:10:21  <LA[lord]> ^^
17:10:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> LA[lord]: you just don't know it ;)
17:10:53  <LA[lord]> hmm.. who attacked pastebin? it's down atm :P ^^
17:11:24  <LA[lord]> it that case I had to remake it so... the code
17:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> there is
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17:14:59  <LA[lord]> hmm... seems EXACTLY the same as pastebin.. just different design
17:15:08  <LA[lord]> or colours
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17:20:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, i just had E 10 in 3 different liveries at the same station...
17:21:12  <hylje> lots of acquisitions
17:21:16  *** |Bastiaan| [~Bastiaan@] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies]
17:22:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r12020 /trunk/src/ (landscape.cpp terraform_gui.cpp tile_type.h tree_cmd.cpp): -Documentation: Correct description of TropicZone.
17:22:42  <yorick> Gonozal_VIII :)
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17:27:34  <Wolf01> hello
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17:31:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r12021 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp:
17:31:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: Make some parts of the town growth a bit more descriptive
17:31:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Remove some needless checks
17:32:55  *** skidd13 [] has joined #openttd
17:32:59  <skidd13> Hi folks
17:35:22  <Gonozal_VIII> hi
17:36:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r12022 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
17:36:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Revert(r12018): Invisible trees are now separate from the building concept.
17:36:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: So when you want invisible trees, just select the option of the same name in the Patch Options and toggle transparency of trees.
17:36:40  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: More to come on the saga of Invisibility. So stay tuned.
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17:39:15  <Roujin> ooo :D
17:39:37  <hylje> don't leave us hanging!
17:40:53  *** Dominik [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
17:41:03  *** skidd13 [] has left #openttd [Ping timeout: Hmm ping sucks :D]
17:42:23  <dih> Belugas: you are funny :-P
17:42:48  <Roujin> is there a way to initialize an array with a specific value in ALL positions?
17:43:49  <Roujin> and i don't mean array[x] = { a, a, a, a, a, a, a} because that is not nice for x=256
17:43:55  *** divo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:44:00  * Belugas watches silently hylje, going from right to left on his rope. Not a word spreads out. Will the wind bring the answer? Who knows... Only TIME will tell
17:44:01  <ln-> memset
17:44:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can initialise an array with any value you want, as long as you want that value to be 0
17:44:42  <ln-> that's true
17:44:45  <Roujin> heh ^^
17:44:49  <fjb> Roujin: Use a loop over the array.
17:45:28  <Roujin> fjb: that's what i would do, i just thought there might be a "nicer" way..
17:45:33  <ln-> fjb: and that's better than memset because ________________?
17:45:44  <Roujin> ln-: how does this memset work?
17:45:47  <Gonozal_VIII> wtf is memset
17:46:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> memset sets mem, what else would it do?
17:46:41  <Gonozal_VIII> of course....
17:46:50  <Roujin> please be nice to a noob like me and elaborate a bit on how to use it ;)
17:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> arr=[]
17:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> for i in range(0, n):
17:47:47  <Eddi|zuHause3>  arr.append(value)
17:47:54  <LA[lord]> how do I set bit 4 in action07 variable 86? and how do I not set it? 86	B	Road traffic side: bit 4 clear=left, set=right
17:47:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> grr... it eats the indentation
17:48:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> why would you SET it?
17:48:37  <dih> my server won't boot
17:48:40  <dih> kernel panic
17:48:41  <dih> :-(
17:48:58  <Roujin> currently i have now in my code what i wrote above: array[x] = {a, a, a, ..., a} [x times] where x = 256 and a = something longer - and that's not nice and i know it ;)
17:49:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's in the game options, the user sets that
17:49:20  <glx> LA[lord]: you only check it
17:49:40  <Belugas>
17:49:46  <Belugas> mem set
17:49:48  <Belugas> easy
17:49:48  <LA[lord]> whatever :P How do I check it?
17:49:52  <Belugas> google
17:50:19  <LA[lord]> just var 86?
17:50:28  <Gonozal_VIII> you can append stuff to an array :O
17:50:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: that depends on your language ;)
17:51:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> python does not have arrays
17:51:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> it has lists
17:51:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> and subscriptable objects
17:51:28  <Gonozal_VIII> lists have pointers
17:51:34  <Gonozal_VIII> you said pointers are bad
17:51:34  <Roujin> thanks, and sorry for getting on your nerves again T_T
17:51:36  <Belugas> and fengs
17:51:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> only the wrong lists ;)
17:52:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> "right" lists work like this:
17:52:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> def append(self, value):
17:52:38  <Eddi|zuHause3>   if self.is_full():
17:52:47  <Eddi|zuHause3>    self.double_size()
17:52:52  <glx> LA[lord]: -1 * 0 07 86 01 00/01 04 xx
17:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause3>   self[self.last_index()+1] = value
17:53:36  <hylje> Eddi|zuHause3: i thought the actual list implementation did more magic than that
17:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, it's just the concept
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17:56:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r12023 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Fix [FS#1690]: Put a better suited text in the quit-dialog.
17:57:15  <LA[lord]> thanks glx
18:00:57  <LA[lord]> amd
18:01:24  <LA[lord]> and* now as I looked at specs, I totally understood that line, so thanks again
18:03:26  *** Osai is now known as Osai^Kendo
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18:16:08  <Amis> what the "remove absurc road elements during the road construction" option does?
18:16:14  <Amis> absurd*
18:17:07  <yorick> exectly that
18:17:19  <Amis> explain
18:17:32  <Amis> what an absurd road element is?
18:17:37  <yorick> it removes road crossings that cant be connected
18:18:19  <Amis> i dont really understand
18:18:38  <yorick> if you turn it off, road crossings that lead to houses/water appear
18:18:45  <Amis> ahh
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18:18:50  <Amis> now i understand
18:19:17  <Amis> so it does nothing special only make the game look better
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18:19:40  <yorick> erm...huh?
18:20:05  <Neverhood> where can i get a sample openttd.cfg? I dont have any in my install dir
18:20:23  <yorick> try making a empty one ;)
18:20:23  <Roujin> start game, exit game
18:20:34  <yorick> it usually is in My Documents/OpenTTD in windows
18:20:43  <Roujin> then look again in install dir and my documents/openttd or similar dir
18:20:46  <yorick> @0.6.*
18:20:53  <Roujin> it is in one of the two places
18:21:37  <yorick> if openttd.cfg is in the install dir, it will be done there
18:21:51  <yorick> else, it will use the My Documents/OpenTTD folder
18:22:09  <Roujin> btw if you don't want the openttd stuff in your documents folder, just move it to the install dir, it will work and leave it there from then on ;)
18:22:43  <Roujin> i'm off for today, cu
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18:24:02  <yorick> IPv6 :O
18:24:10  <Neverhood> ahh thanks Roujin, you are a life saver
18:25:02  <Amis> ipv6 means that the world is out of ipv4 :) so it happened
18:25:26  *** |Bastiaan| [] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies]
18:25:27  <Neverhood> if anyone is doing a poll on weather the openttd.cfg file and so on should be in My Documents or in the OpenTTD install dir, then count me as being for the install folder.
18:25:50  <yorick> it is done because of the user-indepentancy
18:26:02  *** Guest1063 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:26:22  <Neverhood> well, im against both My Documents and user-indepentancy... :P
18:26:44  <yorick> go complaining to Rubidium :-P
18:27:11  <glx> go complaining at MS instead
18:27:36  <glx> a limited user can't write in install dir if it is in program files
18:27:49  <Neverhood> naa.. it's not worth complaining about... It works, im sure the developpers have better things to do than listen to endless ramblings about this.
18:27:58  <Belugas> indeed...
18:28:11  <Belugas> just... endless ?  not really...
18:28:20  <yorick> whats wrong to %appdata%?
18:28:32  <glx> hard to find
18:28:50  <yorick> :O
18:29:10  <yorick> %appdata%/OpenTTD/openttd.cfg , hard to find eh?
18:29:29  <glx> many users even don't know its existence
18:29:36  <Digitalfox> The fun part of ipv6 is that more 90% of world routers and modems don't support it, at least in the client side of a ISP
18:29:37  <yorick> so?
18:29:38  <glx> no direct access to it
18:29:46  <yorick> does it need to
18:30:20  <glx> and most games put stuff in mydocs
18:30:34  <Amis> start? / documents? / Openttd? its easy to acces the folder
18:30:37  <yorick> yes, but somewhere in My Games
18:31:06  <Amis> and anyway:
18:31:06  <yorick> Amis, but I want multiple versions of ottd next to eachother
18:31:17  <glx> I have only one installed game with files in my games
18:31:27  <yorick> I have 2
18:31:27  <glx> all other just created a dir in mydocs
18:31:31  <dih> my server is over the ocean
18:31:36  <yorick> both from microsoft
18:31:36  <dih> my server is over the sea
18:31:46  <glx> bring back... ?
18:31:49  <dih> laters
18:31:50  *** dih [~nathanael@] has quit [Quit: leaving]
18:31:51  <yorick> just bring back your server to me :)
18:32:05  *** blathijs [] has quit [Quit: Reconnecting]
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18:34:34  <yorick> another one that is pimping with ipv6
18:34:36  <blathijs> woohoo, ipv6 :-)
18:34:50  <blathijs> Took a few tries to convince irssi, though
18:35:12  <fjb> ipv6 is nice.
18:35:19  <yorick> I dont have :(
18:35:26  <hylje> :-)
18:35:39  <blathijs> yorick: Use 6to4 tunneling, it's brilliantly clever :-)
18:35:51  <yorick> my provider doesn't have
18:35:52  <glx> I can do that
18:37:17  <blathijs> yorick: In theory, you can use any 6to4 tunnel, not just your provider's
18:37:25  <blathijs> Not sure how it works in practice, though
18:37:30  <yorick> yes, but where do I get one?
18:37:38  <Diabolic-Angel> yorick:
18:38:32  <Diabolic-Angel> They give them away for free, just need to tell them why you want one. "Student that is curious about new technology bla" is all you need.
18:39:47  <hylje> "*incoherent blabber*"
18:40:21  <yorick> "Don't try to fill in false, incomplete or invalid data as you will be rejected."
18:41:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r12024 /trunk/src/tree_cmd.cpp:
18:41:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Reduce code duplication inside tree_cmd.
18:41:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -CodeChange: When rocks get removed while planting trees, barren the ground.
18:41:04  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: In one case trees could spread under bridges.
18:41:20  <yorick> far too complicated
18:41:23  *** zrah [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:41:29  * yorick is not going to do it
18:41:34  <yorick> why should I?
18:41:43  <blathijs> Because it's fun! :-p
18:41:48  <blathijs> Is it complicated?
18:42:09  <blathijs> It sounds simple in (network) theory
18:42:12  <yorick> I dont like giving name, adress, email and other personal data to sixxs
18:42:24  <Neverhood> is there a commandline switch to stop the dedicated server from opening in a new window?
18:43:00  <glx> using -D under windows?
18:43:20  <yorick> no
18:43:24  <yorick> you have to patch it
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18:43:41  <yorick> there is a patch for using windows console @openttd
18:43:50  <glx> no need to patch it, just convert it using
18:44:04  <yorick> yes, thats what I mean
18:44:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: miham * r12025 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt estonian.txt french.txt korean.txt spanish.txt):
18:44:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2008-01-30 19:43:26
18:44:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 1 fixed by Hadez (1)
18:44:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 11 changed by kristjans (11)
18:44:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 2 changed by belugas (2)
18:44:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: korean - 1 changed by darkttd (1)
18:44:18  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 5 fixed by eusebio (5)
18:44:42  <Amis> hungarian? :P
18:44:50  <yorick> still the "vliegtuig is in the lucht" has to be fixed in dutch...
18:45:10  <Maedhros> heh, nice
18:45:44  <Neverhood> Im trying to write a frontend for the dedicated server, and right now im just getting a black OpenTTD Dedicated Server window next to my frontend. I would like other ppl to be able to use my frontend without patching, is this not possible at all?
18:46:15  <glx> it's not possible without converting it (that's how windows works)
18:46:32  <yorick> no glx, you could be using the windows console
18:46:51  <yorick> make it a console app
18:46:54  <yorick> hmm...wait
18:47:03  <yorick> dedicated only for windows?
18:47:09  <MiHaMeK> Amis: hi
18:47:25  <glx> yorick: openttd is a windows app, not a console app
18:47:42  <yorick> yes, but you could make a dedicated version?
18:47:48  <glx> why?
18:48:07  <Neverhood> so i could write a frontend to it :)
18:48:36  <yorick> all other builds have dedicated versions
18:48:55  <Amis> whats the adress of the grf page?
18:49:07  <glx> they are just compiled without video drivers
18:49:13  <yorick> yes
18:49:15  <glx> on windows it needs more work
18:49:44  <Amis> somebody, or what
18:49:45  <Maedhros> Amis: which grf page? i can think of two off the top of my head - and
18:49:54  <Amis> .net!
18:50:03  <yorick> what?
18:50:14  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:51:20  <glx> and IIRC mingw doesn't have "unicode" entry point for console apps
18:52:28  <yorick> converting everything is not an option
18:53:40  <Neverhood> is it very hard just to make a commandline switch that makes the dedicated server just not show the new window?
18:53:48  <glx> yes
18:53:57  <Neverhood> ok :)
18:54:13  <glx> the console creation is determined by windows, not by openttd
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18:54:18  <Belugas> the switch is not hard.  the code implementing waht the switch should do is
18:54:41  <Neverhood> i understand
18:56:09  <yorick> hmm...I think I get the piglatin now
18:56:34  <yorick> first char is moved to the back, -ay is added
18:56:59  <Amis> im off, bye
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18:57:07  <yorick> bye
18:57:15  *** Amis [] has left #openttd []
18:58:01  <yorick> any translators needed for dutch or piglatin?
18:58:15  <Maedhros> piglatin's done by a script
18:58:28  <Maedhros> or it was when it was created, anyway
18:58:52  <yorick> 74 bad strings, up-to-date, 2 translators assigned
18:58:52  <Maedhros> but i have no idea about dutch - why not apply anyway?
18:59:21  <hylje> shut up or ill write a shell script to replace you!
18:59:37  <yorick> didn't you already do that?
18:59:52  <SmatZ> piglatin = put first word to the end of word and append ay?
19:00:05  <LA[lord]> hmm.. I just rerendered my tropical bank for higher resolution (GeekToo's patch).. You'll get it as soon in forums as soon smb comments the oil tank at blender thread :P...
19:00:14  <SmatZ> hmm no, sometimes it moves more letters :)
19:00:24  <yorick> or way if you word starts with a,e,u,i,o
19:00:27  <SmatZ> until
19:00:28  <SmatZ> yeah
19:00:52  <SmatZ> STR_8019_T_I_M_ELECTRIC                                         :'Tay.Iway.May.' (Electricway)
19:00:52  <yorick> there are 97 strings not done in piglatin
19:00:53  <SmatZ> :D
19:02:21  <yorick> no = onay
19:02:50  <SmatZ> "_
19:02:51  <SmatZ> :)
19:03:46  <yorick> etslay tartsay openttdWAY
19:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> oh neee....
19:05:13  * yorick isway onnagay alktay inway iglatinpay odaytay
19:05:54  * yorick isway iddingkay
19:06:17  <yorick> ):ay
19:07:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: orudge * r12026 /trunk/src/lang/ (english.txt english_US.txt): -Update: 'exit' is consistent with UK English in OpenTTD, 'quit' with US English
19:10:37  <SpComb> language police!
19:11:19  *** Neverhood [~Neverhood@] has quit [Quit: Good news everyone!]
19:11:24  <yorick> yljehay ashay otay riteway emay inway igpay atinlay ownay
19:11:45  <Gonozal_VIII> !kick yorick
19:12:05  <LA[lord]> !kick orickyay
19:12:10  <yorick> ouyay antcay ickkay emay
19:12:25  *** yorick was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [i can :D]
19:12:36  *** yorick [] has joined #openttd
19:12:38  <LA[lord]> !kick orick...YAAY!!
19:12:44  <LA[lord]> ^^
19:12:47  <yorick> aw
19:12:54  <yorick> -ay
19:13:03  <Gonozal_VIII> away?^^
19:13:07  <LA[lord]> ^ay^ay
19:13:08  <yorick> :D
19:14:38  <yorick> asway IWAY ancay eesay, elugasbay ancay understandway igpayatinlay })
19:14:51  <yorick> back to normal talking :)
19:15:37  <LA[lord]> ooahway, owhay omecay?ay
19:16:17  <yorick> okway, IWAY illway otnay
19:17:17  * LA[lord] is wants replies to
19:17:32  <LA[lord]>  /Yorick is kinda weird/
19:17:52  * yorick nowskay
19:18:24  <yorick> icenay oilrifineryway :)
19:18:52  *** Deathmaker [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:20:00  <LA[lord]> I've got some problems... At little zoom, the bank seemed normal, but now at full zoom, I can see all the flaws.. :(
19:20:10  * LA[lord] is speaking of his tropical bank
19:20:59  <yorick> ookedlay ikelay ouyay ereway alkingtay aboutway omesay aircraft...
19:21:22  <yorick> -way
19:21:36  <Belugas> yorick, please, stick to english
19:21:39  <Belugas> it's getting boring
19:21:59  <yorick> actually, it is understandable for everyone that speaks english
19:22:01  <yorick> but ok
19:22:12  <Gonozal_VIII> is not
19:22:28  <Belugas> i know it is, but it's not pleasant to decipher it
19:22:40  <Belugas> plus, we are not all english speakers natively
19:22:42  <LA[lord]> Yorick: I can speak english but I still have to read all your words one by one if you use that
19:22:46  <Belugas> which means a new layer of transaltion
19:24:15  <LA[lord]> Yorick: Next thing you try is this?
19:24:18  <LA[lord]> don't :P
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19:25:14  <HMage> ЌяЌя. всеЌ прОвет.
19:25:34  <yorick> and, did the server want to go out of the rack?(andway, idday hetay erversay antway otay ogay outway ofway hetay ackray?)
19:26:23  <dih> wtf?
19:28:15  <yorick> I'm trying to talk in piglatit, but because elugasbay didn't find it pleasant to decipher it, I'll put english translation with it :)
19:28:38  <yorick> pignatin*
19:28:49  <LA[lord]> iglatinpay
19:29:05  <yorick> LA[rol]d: tnahks for taht lnik :)
19:29:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> give up ;)
19:29:28  <HMage> enoyreve oleh
19:30:51  <LA[lord]> HMage: What?
19:31:03  <yorick> mirrored, "helo everyone"
19:31:03  <LA[lord]> Yorick: I said, DON'T
19:31:13  <yorick> hmm...too late :)
19:32:01  * LA[lord] is bored
19:32:26  <yorick> go writing iglatinpay, it's fun!
19:32:30  * HMage is not
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19:32:58  *** Sacro is now known as acroSay
19:33:47  <dih> i think i can save my servers data :-)
19:34:04  <SpComb> what did you manage to do to your server this time?
19:34:21  <dih> we had a power cut
19:34:26  <dih> all of karlsruhe was out
19:34:27  <yorick> the power company did
19:34:29  <SpComb> and it corrupted itself?
19:34:38  <yorick> linux eh ;)
19:34:47  <dih> and then the ups failed us
19:34:54  <yorick> how can that be?
19:34:58  * SpComb has yet to succeed in corrupting his disks due to unexpected power-killing
19:35:03  <SpComb> (in windows or linux)
19:35:20  <dih> anyhow - kernel panic at boot time
19:35:24  <HMage> dih: use reiserfs or xfs :)
19:35:31  <yorick> with NFTS, it isn't very possible....
19:35:36  <dih> i _am_ using reiserfs
19:35:40  <HMage> doh
19:35:44  <dih> yes
19:35:48  <dih> thank you
19:35:59  <dih> the only partition that is not using reiser is /boot
19:36:01  <HMage> dih: I didn't mean any offense
19:36:02  <dih> and that is extw
19:36:05  <dih> *ext2
19:36:10  <dih> no
19:36:13  <yorick> I tried corrupting nfts soo much
19:36:13  <dih> no offence take
19:36:14  <HMage> but I'm using reiser for /boot too
19:36:14  <dih> n
19:36:39  <dih> i am not using reiserfs for /boot because i dont need journaling on /boot
19:36:48  <yorick> hmm...good plan to make your primary disk ext2...
19:36:52  <dih> and that was the only partition the server was able to read :-D
19:37:12  <HMage> dih: you think partition table is borked?
19:37:16  <dih> no
19:37:40  <dih> if that were the case i could not mount all the partitions on my workstation
19:37:47  <HMage> does dd give any read errors?
19:37:59  <dih> yes - i dd a disk that could possibly be duff
19:38:16  <dih> well - i could
19:38:24  <dih> and then mount the images in loopback
19:38:56  <dih> but then i only want images of the data - not the entire partitions
19:39:46  <yorick> how come the ups failed?
19:40:06  <yorick> brb
19:40:06  <dih> the bateries seem duff
19:41:45  <dih> if they were not duff the ups would have powerd all 30 servers
19:41:57  <dih> but prob not as long as the outage lasted
19:42:06  <yorick> back
19:42:11  <dih> none the less - it would have had a chance to send the shutdown commands
19:42:16  <yorick> but long enough to shutd-yes
19:42:35  <dih> but 3 seconds after power cut the ups was out too
19:42:36  <yorick> if you would have known, and if your network conn wasnt down
19:43:02  <dih> my desk at work is right next to the server room ;-)
19:43:14  <dih> i would have noticed :-)
19:43:28  <dih> i notice if just one of the servers beeps
19:43:44  <yorick> how could I know that?
19:43:58  <yorick> ;)
19:44:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> you should have
19:45:26  <yorick> its a good idea to test the ups regularly...
19:45:49  <yorick> or buy one that doesn't get duff
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19:46:00  <yorick> :)
19:46:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> do it at the same time as testing the circuit breaker ;)
19:47:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> my main line is kinda crowded with long distance trains now...
19:47:49  <SpComb> my UPS self-tests every now and then
19:48:04  <yorick> try not-saving and try to test your non-existent UPS, Eddi ;)
19:48:38  <yorick> SpComb: and if it isn't ok, is it going to beep in the middle of the night?
19:49:03  <yorick> things that can beep have the tendency to break in the middle of the night
19:49:10  <LA[lord]> ok.. before I go to sleep, I'll give you one magnificent link...
19:49:14  <SpComb> no, it'll send a message to the host computer over USB, which will get logged and an alert sent
19:49:41  <yorick> :>)
19:50:29  <LA[lord]> good night
19:50:47  <yorick> night
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19:50:54  <acroSay> oodgay ightnay
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19:51:09  <glx> <HMage> ЌяЌя. всеЌ прОвет. <-- I don't get the first word
19:51:19  <yorick> I dont gett anything
19:51:29  <yorick> only some strange things
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19:52:03  <yorick> but that could have to do with the char encoding...
19:52:13  <glx> yorick: it's russian
19:52:16  <yorick> oh
19:52:32  <yorick> it doesn't look like russian
19:52:36  <yorick> [20:52] <yorick> but that could have to do with the char encoding...
19:53:25  <ln-> yorick: see topic; UTF-8 is mandatory
19:53:47  <glx> utf8 is not enough, the right font may help too
19:53:48  <yorick> dunno how to set in HydraIRC...
19:54:32  <dih> [20:47]  <SpComb> my UPS self-tests every now and then <-- ours did
19:54:40  <dih> and claimed the batteries were ok
19:54:44  <SpComb> huh
19:54:56  <dih> it's a cubic thingy from apc
19:55:14  <dih> costs a good 10K euros
19:57:55  * SpComb has a refurbished 3kVA SmartUPS that he got for teh cheaps
19:58:07  <dih> :-)
19:58:29  <dih> well - the really nasty thing is that all colocated servers sitting in our racks were on that ups :-P
19:58:37  <dih> but seeing as there was a power cut
19:58:46  <dih> guess who was not able to give us a call :-D
19:59:14  <yorick> ?
19:59:23  <dih> clients...?
19:59:33  <yorick> are you sure the ups was sufficient for all of the servers?
19:59:44  <Belugas> customers?
19:59:45  <Belugas> mothers?
19:59:55  <dih> yorick: yes
19:59:55  <Belugas> the babysitters?
20:00:11  * Belugas runs away yelling
20:00:29  * dih ties Belugas to a lamp post
20:00:30  *** peter1138 [~petern@] has joined #openttd
20:00:30  *** mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ
20:00:33  <dih> hello peter
20:00:44  <yorick> eter1138pay!
20:00:56  <yorick> :)
20:03:24  *** acroSay is now known as Sacro
20:03:42  <peter1138> Pig Latin is pointless.
20:03:55  <yorick> but fun
20:04:00  <yorick> +.
20:04:26  <fjb> Sacro is still at that age.
20:04:34  <Sacro> :(
20:05:14  <dih> yorick is too - but then we dont know him any different, nor do we expect him to be anywhere else
20:05:36  <Tefad> eterpay?
20:05:43  <yorick> do you know Sacro any different?
20:07:29  <dih> no - but i expect more from soneone i believe to be older :-)
20:07:50  <dih> "older" = older than he/she/it behaves
20:07:53  <Prof_Frink> dih: Now now, remember that Sacro has a terrible affliction.
20:08:09  <dih> not older in the sense of "Belugas" older
20:08:14  <dih> :-P
20:08:23  <peter1138> Hullitis?
20:08:28  <Prof_Frink> He's /Northern/.
20:08:32  <peter1138> Oh, that one.
20:08:44  <peter1138> I bet he speaks all funny.
20:08:57  <dih> phone...
20:09:36  <Prof_Frink> It's weird having #openttd on 3.
20:10:02  <yorick> <very old quote from dih>"a sentence about telephone with the colors green, pink and yellow"
20:10:55  * yorick hates remembering everything
20:11:44  <peter1138> @openttd commit r14
20:11:44  <DorpsGek> peter1138: Invalid arguments for _commit.
20:11:47  <peter1138> @openttd commit 14
20:11:47  <DorpsGek> peter1138: Commit by dominik :: r14 /trunk (rail_cmd.c road_cmd.c) (2004-08-10 18:35:43 UTC)
20:11:49  <DorpsGek> peter1138: Fix: railroad crossings on slopes are now possible
20:12:08  <peter1138> :o
20:12:16  <yorick> what's with that?
20:12:29  <yorick> @openttd commit 2
20:12:29  <DorpsGek> yorick: Commit by darkvater :: r2 /trunk (9 files) (2004-08-10 14:14:00 UTC)
20:12:30  <DorpsGek> yorick: -Fix [993829] UDP Fixes (lucaspiller)
20:12:31  <DorpsGek> yorick: -Fix change 255/0xFF to OWNER_SPECTATOR for
20:12:32  <DorpsGek> yorick: spectator stuff (TrueLight)
20:12:59  <peter1138> railroad crossings... on slopes...?
20:13:02  <dih> yorick: answer: "the phone goes green green, i pink it up and say 'yellow?'"
20:13:18  <yorick> :O
20:13:35  <dih> i like that one :-P
20:13:38  *** helb_ [~helb@] has quit [Read error: No route to host]
20:14:04  <yorick> <another very old quote from dih that came after it>"LOL!"
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20:17:11  <Gonozal_VIII> 30 Kilo Kalium Nitraat Vuurwerkbom Vuurzee Vuurwerk <-- what does that mean?
20:17:21  <yorick> why?
20:17:34  <Gonozal_VIII> because i want to know?^^
20:18:22  *** Guest1076 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:18:25  <yorick> 30 Kilo ... Nitrate Fireworkbomb much flames(lit:flamesea) Firework
20:18:43  <yorick> wait, more like firesea
20:18:44  <Gonozal_VIII> much flames indeed^^
20:19:14  <yorick> and now, why?
20:19:26  <Gonozal_VIII> youtoube
20:19:31  <Gonozal_VIII> -o
20:19:57  <yorick> Kalium = Potassium
20:20:22  <yorick> comes from latin
20:20:25  <Sacro> oh hell :\
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20:20:36  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't know potassium but i know kalium
20:20:43  <yorick> yes, I had to look for it :)
20:20:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> <peter1138> railroad crossings... on slopes...? <- maybe he meant on foundations?
20:20:51  <Sacro>
20:20:57  <Gonozal_VIII> it's spelled with 'u' sacro
20:21:07  <yorick> I think it is the same word in german
20:21:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, Kalium is Kalium in german ;)
20:21:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> i have no idea what Potassium is though...
20:22:21  <yorick>
20:22:32  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause3, ah, possible
20:22:56  <planetmaker> hi
20:23:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> why would somebody call the element that has "K" as symbol call "Potassium", which does not even closely resemble a "K"?
20:23:52  <yorick> because it comes from latin
20:23:58  <yorick> and is Kalium in latin
20:24:00  <hylje> i think there's three different "Potassium" elements
20:24:01  * Maedhros spent half an hour today grinding up potassium hydroxide to make it into a "fine powder"
20:24:04  <hylje> depending on the language used
20:24:04  <Maedhros> it wasn't fun...
20:24:09  <fjb> I saw a diagonal road / railroad crossing in the forum some days ago. Was that a mock up or is there a patch for that?
20:24:13  <hylje> and the languages are also interchangeable i recall
20:24:19  <Maedhros> Eddi|zuHause3: ditto lead (= Pb)
20:24:40  <Sacro> fjb: was a patch
20:24:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> ok, lead is called something entirely different in german also...
20:24:54  <yorick> yeah?
20:24:56  <yorick> tellme
20:25:00  <Gonozal_VIII> blei
20:25:03  <yorick> :O
20:25:08  <Sacro> plumbum!
20:25:09  <yorick> its "lood" in dutch
20:25:18  <orudge`> plomb!
20:25:21  <planetmaker> There are many where languages differ :)
20:25:30  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm lood... like lot :-)
20:25:58  <planetmaker> For hydrogen it's where the English is matching the chemical symbol - and the German "Wasserstoff" - well - only hints at its contribution to water (Wasser)
20:26:04  <peter1138> Pb
20:26:16  <Gonozal_VIII> lot in german is a piece of metal (like lead) on a string to see if something is right below something else....
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20:26:36  <yorick> planetmaker: "Waterstof" in dutch :)
20:26:41  <peter1138> that's a plumb-bob
20:26:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> "Wasserstoff" is pretty much a literal translation of "Hydrogen" (or the other way round)
20:27:06  <yorick> same ^^
20:27:21  <planetmaker> sure. :)
20:28:53  <Sacro> Gonozal_VIII: a plumb(line)
20:29:35  <planetmaker> And how do we explain then "Sauerstoff" (=oxygen). Oxygen doesn't even make anything sour - rather OH is a base(?)...
20:29:37  <Gonozal_VIII> yes, that stuff
20:30:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> planetmaker: basically, it's a misnomer ;)
20:31:00  <Gonozal_VIII> [21:30:28] Bartleby: weils frÌher dachten das zeug machtr, dass sÀure sauer
20:31:00  <Gonozal_VIII> [21:30:38] Bartleby: dabei wars das Hzeuch
20:31:05  <Gonozal_VIII> :-)
20:31:36  <yorick> zuurstof in dutch :)^^
20:32:21  <Gonozal_VIII> so... they thought oxygen was the reason for the acidity of acids...
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20:46:21  <Gonozal_VIII> <-- nice landing^^
20:46:31  <yorick> no youtube links
20:46:38  <Gonozal_VIII> offtopic...
20:46:43  <Gonozal_VIII> planes are ontopic :P
20:47:22  <yorick> /quit I'm not }), goodbye! WinBot: If a packet hits a pocket on a socket on a port, and the bus is interrupted as a very last resort, and the address of the memory makes your floppy disk abort, then the socket packet pocket has an error to report! If your cursor finds a menu item followed by a dash, and the double-clicking icon puts your window in the trash, and your data is corrupted 'cause the index doesn't hash, then your
20:47:22  <yorick>  situation's hopeless, and your system's gonna crash! If the label on the cable on the table at your house, says the network is connected to the button on your mouse, but your packets want to tunnel on another protocol, that's repeatedly rejected by the printer down the hall, and your screen is all distorted by the side effects of gauss so your icons in the window are as wavy as a souse, then you m
20:47:22  <yorick> ay as well reboot and go out with a bang, 'Cause as sure as I'm a poet, the sucker's gonna hang! When the copy of your floppy's getting sloppy on the disk, and the microcode instructions cause unnecessary risc, then you have to flash your memory and you'll want to RAM your ROM. Quickly turn off the computer and be sure to tell your mom!
20:47:27  <yorick> aw
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20:48:31  <fjb> What was that?
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20:50:34  <fjb> I like narrow gauge railways:
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20:53:35  <Gonozal_VIII> start a game in 1875 with daylength 30, then after some hours of watchin them crawl around with 16km/h tell me again how much you like them ;-)
20:53:37  * Maedhros resists the urge to attempt right-click scrolling on that screenshot
20:54:30  <fjb> My trains are a bit faster. :-)
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20:55:20  <fjb> Maedhros: Put the screenshot in the background of your desktop. :-)
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21:00:57  <Gonozal_VIII> that other guy was downloading again... connection so busy that i couldn't even establish ftp connection
21:01:11  <Gonozal_VIII>
21:01:49  <Gonozal_VIII> some 16km/h choo choo trains
21:02:34  <SpComb> ugly theme alert
21:02:44  <Gonozal_VIII> hmmmm?
21:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> too many signals
21:03:17  <Gonozal_VIII> yes... bartleby spammed them
21:03:20  <SpComb> the task bar/window list/whatever it is bubbles/ovals
21:03:31  <Gonozal_VIII> ah...
21:03:35  <Gonozal_VIII> stealth os skin
21:03:41  <fjb> Cute. But why that many signals?
21:03:44  <Gonozal_VIII> not ugly :P
21:03:47  <SpComb> yeah, the ovals look bad
21:04:17  <Prof_Frink> I'm with SpComb on this one
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21:04:34  <Gonozal_VIII> the line on the top left needs those signals... always full of trains
21:04:43  * Prof_Frink intends to have no panel at all when plasma's more configurable
21:05:06  <Gonozal_VIII> they are so slow that a full line can't move the production of a single industry
21:06:11  <fjb> Try to use horses instead. :-)
21:06:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> industry capacity should change over time
21:06:34  <Gonozal_VIII> couldn't get the powerplant to increase production btw... how can one do that?
21:06:45  <fjb> Looks like somebody solved that problem with "station walking".
21:06:47  <Gonozal_VIII> it has lots of coal and oil
21:06:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> is that ECS stuff?
21:07:02  <Gonozal_VIII> yes
21:07:12  *** dih_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:07:52  <SpComb>
21:08:07  <Gonozal_VIII> those two little one tile stations are there to pick up and dump sulphur in an attempt to get the powe production to rise... but it doesn't produce any sulphur
21:08:57  *** dih| [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:11:52  <peter1138> landscape: blurgh
21:11:55  <peter1138> ecs: blurgh
21:11:59  <peter1138> signals: blurgh
21:12:11  <Gonozal_VIII> those are default signals^^
21:12:18  <peter1138> quite
21:12:23  <peter1138> and indeed, way too many
21:12:41  <peter1138> also, vehicles: blurgh
21:12:45  <peter1138> (they're not aligned properly)
21:12:46  <Gonozal_VIII> one of the lines needs that many
21:13:21  <Gonozal_VIII> and the signals are not quite default, they are default^^
21:13:31  <peter1138> lies
21:13:43  <peter1138> you need longer trains, that's all
21:13:51  <Gonozal_VIII> impossible
21:13:56  <Gonozal_VIII> that's max length
21:14:05  <Gonozal_VIII> deactivated the patch option
21:14:40  <peter1138> silly :o
21:14:59  <Gonozal_VIII> and those engines have 150 hp...
21:15:11  <Gonozal_VIII> they have a hard enough time pulling those wagons
21:15:27  <Gonozal_VIII> look at the date
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21:17:04  <Gonozal_VIII> and what's wrong with ecs? ecs rocks! wouldn't play without that anymore
21:17:43  <ln-> are you talking about eComStation, sir?
21:17:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> the terrain causes eye cancer
21:18:04  <Gonozal_VIII> :S
21:18:16  <Gonozal_VIII> why oh why?
21:18:41  <HMage> яЌяЌ
21:18:44  <Gonozal_VIII> that's newterrain grf
21:18:52  <Gonozal_VIII> combined with newwater
21:18:57  <ln-> HMage: yum-yum?
21:19:12  <HMage> ln-: going to bed :)
21:22:00  <fjb> Hm, the trains have an alignment problem. Is that the serbian narrow gauge set?
21:22:19  <Gonozal_VIII> yes it is
21:22:25  <Gonozal_VIII> didn't change any alignment
21:22:50  <fjb> I didn't notice any problem yet. I have to take a closer look.
21:23:01  <Gonozal_VIII> and... where is it wrong?
21:23:09  <Gonozal_VIII> can't see it
21:23:30  <fjb> The gras look kind of fluffy. Like plÃŒsch (what is the english word?).
21:23:46  <Gonozal_VIII> grass is fluffy...
21:24:01  <fjb> Look at the trains coming from the bottom right.
21:24:08  <Gonozal_VIII> it's not a flat rubber mat on the ground^^
21:24:43  <fjb> Looks like nicely cleaned grass.
21:25:18  <Gonozal_VIII> nicely cleaned grass?
21:25:28  <Tefad> plush is an english word
21:25:47  <Tefad> some couches fit the description
21:25:48  <fjb> Too green, no spots of dirt. The original grass tiles have more brown spots.
21:26:01  <Tefad> looks like cotton candy?
21:26:08  <fjb> Tefad: The is the word I was looking for. Thank you.
21:26:27  <Gonozal_VIII> cotton candy is not plÃŒsch^^
21:27:00  <Tefad> it looks as if it would be though ; )
21:27:14  <Gonozal_VIII> i didn't draw that terrain and i don't think i could do it any better...
21:27:24  <fjb> The grass look way too clean green in contrast to the ecs industries.
21:28:40  <Gonozal_VIII> is there better grass?
21:28:49  <Gonozal_VIII> without borders, don't like them
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21:32:23  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:32:31  <fjb> Hm, some of the wogons of the serbian set look a bit small in contrast to the rails. Maybe that is the cause for the alignment problem.
21:36:48  <fjb> And you could use more than one locomotion to pull a train. That would look much better than that many signals.
21:37:17  <Gonozal_VIII> but wouldn't help anything
21:37:28  <Gonozal_VIII> 16 km/h is top spee
21:37:29  <Gonozal_VIII> d
21:38:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> like i said, industry capacity must start very low, and then rise as train capacities rise
21:38:44  <fjb> But with longer trains you can transport more per train.
21:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, but still less than with later trains
21:39:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> like in the DBSetXL, when you get the 4 axle wagons, you can almost doulbe the capacity of the trains with the same length
21:39:54  <fjb> I don't think George asumed somebody would start a game in 1875 when he made the industries. :-)
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21:41:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's not a problem with the grf itself, the whole industrial system is not designed for this kind of growth
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21:59:54  <fjb> I wish PBS for christmas.
22:00:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> you didn't specify which christmas...
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22:03:12  <fjb> That was intended...
22:03:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> i love the "smooth" foundations
22:03:31  <Chrill> Are there any cool logs here?
22:03:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> but i hate the drag-terraforming tool
22:03:33  <SpComb> Logs: (old: )
22:03:33  <Chrill> !logs
22:03:35  <Chrill> think so..
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22:08:00  <fjb> What are smooth foundations?
22:08:28  <GoneWacko> I'm wondering the same
22:08:31  <GoneWacko> thing.
22:08:57  <fjb> Fluffy foundations with plush?
22:10:15  <fjb> I would vote for fluffy plush foundations in pink to attract more girls to the game.
22:11:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> "smooth" as in "less zig-zag"
22:12:27  <fjb> Ah, ok.
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22:29:38  <fjb> Stupid towns. I'm connecting them to the wide world and they get mad at me.
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22:55:53  <UnderBuilder> one question... I set initial size of the cities to 10 and when I start a new game, they start like if the setting were in 1
22:56:47  <Gonozal_VIII> not every town is a city
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23:03:49  <planetmaker> good night then all
23:04:11  <Gonozal_VIII> night
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23:09:47  <the_palm> !password
23:09:48  *** the_palm was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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23:10:13  <Prof_Frink> Wahey!
23:10:22  <Prof_Frink> Sacro will be happy.
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23:31:17  <fjb> We should make a bot that generates a random password. :-)
23:31:18  *** Greysc[a]le [bnc@] has joined #openttd
23:34:31  <Gonozal_VIII> that joins every gameserver and creates companies with random password until limit is reached?
23:35:49  *** jp [] has quit [Quit: jp]
23:37:11  <fjb> No, just a random answer to the password request, instead of kicking the one asking.
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23:46:57  <murray> now why would you do that Gonozal_VIII?
23:47:00  <murray> that's just evil
23:47:43  <Gonozal_VIII> fjb wants!
23:48:17  <murray> yeah blame it on everyone else
23:48:34  <Gonozal_VIII> everyone else did it!
23:48:49  <murray> would that include me?
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23:49:12  <Gonozal_VIII> are you everyone?
23:49:26  <murray> in some sense, yes
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23:49:38  <Gonozal_VIII> O_o
23:49:45  <murray> seeing as if i'm not included, it wouldn't be everyone
23:49:47  <Gonozal_VIII> you are everyone?
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23:50:49  <murray> i feel we're going in circles here
23:51:17  <Gonozal_VIII> everyone's going in circles
23:52:33  *** Greysc[a]le is now known as Greyscale
23:53:02  <murray> oh noes, INFINITE LOOPS
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23:53:21  <murray> in linux, infinite loops take about 6 seconds to complete
23:53:24  <Gonozal_VIII> break;
23:53:39  <murray> cheater
23:53:55  <glx> murray: only if the infinite loop allocates memory
23:54:30  <Gonozal_VIII> bool true = false;

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