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00:07:38 *** Elukka [Elukka@78-27-90-14.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 00:19:35 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:23:51 *** goodger [~ben@94-30-43-248.xdsl.murphx.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:53:45 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-165-58.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:02:57 *** collinp [~collin@h128.45.91.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #openttd 01:06:25 *** collinp [~collin@h128.45.91.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [] 01:09:10 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 01:19:58 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.76.92] has joined #openttd 01:20:33 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@85.210.76.92] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:30:12 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@pool-173-63-6-235.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 01:31:24 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 01:32:54 <Endymion_Mallorn> Hey all. I have a crazy question. Especially in 1.1.1 and 1.1.5, is there any way to preview the length of a particular engine or car without purchasing it? 01:40:51 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 01:40:55 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@pool-173-63-6-235.nwrknj.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:55:03 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6B667.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 02:01:25 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@89.246.176.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:29:25 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 02:35:34 *** pugi_ [~pugi@host-091-097-075-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 02:39:10 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:98cf:cedd:30b5:ed46] has quit [Quit: bye] 02:41:30 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-002-076.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:41:31 *** pugi_ is now known as pugi 03:05:38 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-151.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 03:06:12 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.84.0] has joined #openttd 03:08:43 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:09:25 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 03:10:01 *** Devedse_ [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 03:14:53 *** mint [~mint@ip70-191-88-25.sb.sd.cox.net] has joined #openttd 03:15:58 *** Devedse [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:20:44 *** mint [~mint@ip70-191-88-25.sb.sd.cox.net] has left #openttd [Leaving] 03:23:40 *** Devedse__ [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has joined #openttd 03:25:20 *** Devedse_ [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:32:01 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 03:32:19 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 03:32:42 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 03:33:19 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 03:33:41 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 03:53:56 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:54:37 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 03:59:18 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-151.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 04:25:48 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-075-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 04:26:58 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 04:27:54 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-4579e3ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd 04:28:07 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@201.47.14.252.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:29:03 <Endymion_Mallorn> Sorry for disconnecting earlier right after asking the question, my 'net went out. Allow me to reiterate. Is there any way for me to tell the length of a particular car or engine before purchase? 04:30:17 <Endymion_Mallorn> (I mean from within OpenTTD during gameplay, not by viewing the NewGRF outside the program.) 04:32:08 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-215-68-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 04:35:01 <Pikka> no, Endymion_Mallorn 04:39:11 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-250-2-219.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 04:41:23 <Endymion_Mallorn> Well, that sucks. Any way you could whip up a patch/NewGRF to do that? 04:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> NewGRFs can put in additional purchase information 04:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ask the developer of the GRF in question to do it 04:45:26 <Endymion_Mallorn> Well, it's not like it could be added to every train. What I want is just for the game (or the hack) to simply read the train length and report it along with the cost and so on. 04:49:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 04:51:43 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC6726E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 04:51:59 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC679E6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 04:52:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: herr bird! 04:52:26 <Pikka> andrew! 04:52:57 <andythenorth> ciao 04:53:21 <Pikka> oui! 04:53:53 <Pikka> "to simply read the train length" does not compute, Endymion_Mallorn 04:54:14 <Endymion_Mallorn> I meant car or engine. 04:54:25 <Pikka> likewise 04:54:56 <Endymion_Mallorn> And how does it not compute? Doesn't every car, either default or in a NewGRF, have a length variable set somewhere? 04:55:06 <Pikka> yes 04:55:16 <Pikka> but that is not necessarily the length you'll get when you build the vehicle 04:55:31 <Endymion_Mallorn> Huh? 04:55:40 <andythenorth> eh? 04:55:43 <Pikka> indeed 04:55:45 <andythenorth> should I read the logs? 04:56:05 <Pikka> the question is "Is there any way for me to tell the length of a particular car or engine before purchase?", andy 04:56:48 <Endymion_Mallorn> So what you're saying is that somehow, if I purchase the 4-4-0 Edwardian (Steam), there's a way for it to not have a length of 0.4? 04:56:50 <andythenorth> what's the case for it? 04:57:14 <andythenorth> you want to build trains of certain length? [to fit stations?] 04:58:11 <Endymion_Mallorn> Partly that, and partly to get as close to 7.0 (which is the longest a train can move?) 04:59:12 <andythenorth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Advanced_Settings/Vehicles 04:59:14 <andythenorth> 1.4.4 05:00:32 <Pikka> Endymion_Mallorn: the "shorter vehicles" property will tell you that the 4-4-0 Edwardian in UKRS2 is 6/8 of a full vehicle length. 05:00:46 <Pikka> when you build it, it is 9/8 of a full vehicle length 05:01:11 <Pikka> thus reporting the "length variable set somewhere" is not very useful to you :) 05:01:46 <andythenorth> and also, the length can be 1/8 on all Tuesdays, but 3/8 on Thursdays if it's raining 05:02:02 <Pikka> yes 05:02:27 <Endymion_Mallorn> So the length rules for trains are based on Fizzbin. 05:02:32 * Endymion_Mallorn headdesks 05:02:56 <Pikka> Endymion_Mallorn: build the train you want to build 05:03:07 <Pikka> and when it ends up 6.8 tiles long instead of 7 tiles long, don't care. 05:03:11 <Pikka> problem solved. 05:06:29 *** Pinkbeast [damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:07:08 <Endymion_Mallorn> See, there's the rub - that whole 'don't care' bit. 05:07:16 *** Bad_Brett [~Bad_Brett@90-227-32-82-no42.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [] 05:07:38 <Pikka> so you pick train locomotives based on the fact that they'll give you a nice round number, rather than power, speed, etc? 05:07:55 <Endymion_Mallorn> Honestly? I usually pick by reliability. 05:08:14 <Endymion_Mallorn> I don't play multiplayer very often, so... 05:08:32 *** supermop [~daniel_er@cpe-67-250-2-219.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 05:08:48 <andythenorth> use the original train set 05:08:57 <Pikka> everything's the same length there 05:08:58 <andythenorth> all lengths are consistent 05:09:14 <andythenorth> you're stuck on an MP server with someone else's rules? 05:12:20 <Endymion_Mallorn> Nope. Just playing my own game with a bunch of NewGRFs for variety. 05:13:55 <Pikka> !seen danmack 05:13:59 <Pikka> or something like that 05:14:08 <Pikka> how do you work these bots 05:14:51 <andythenorth> @seen danmack 05:14:51 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: danmack was last seen in #openttd 12 hours, 35 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <DanMacK> WB Andy 05:14:58 <andythenorth> I haz seen him 05:15:26 <Pikka> buying vegetables 05:16:49 <andythenorth> Pikka: tried CHIPS? 05:17:00 <Pikka> not lately, andy 05:17:21 <andythenorth> nvm 05:17:57 <xiong> Endymion_Mallorn, it's not clear to me... but what do you mean by the statement that a length-7 train is the "longest a train can move"?? 05:19:10 <xiong> Trains can be of great length. The critical relationship is between train and platform; trains loading at platforms shorter than they are, load very slowly and this is Bad. 05:20:01 <Pikka> andy, you should recruit Andrew350 for FISH too. 05:20:08 <xiong> The station-building GUI only has lengths up to 7 but you can build much longer stations in sections, limited only by station spread. 05:21:17 <xiong> In fact, I strongly urge long trains. The longer a train, the more cargo it carries per train. Many network costs are per-train -- for instance, breakdown disruptions. 05:22:02 <xiong> A given length of straight track, no matter how signaled, carries more cargo per unit time if long trains are employed. 05:23:12 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, but that requires changing a setting. The default maximum is 7, is it not? 05:23:17 <xiong> Note that this is made possible by multiheading. To test out my statement, simply combine trains in an existing network by pairs -- drop Train 2 onto the back of Train 1 with the same orders. 05:23:37 <xiong> I have no idea what the default is for most things; I've changed all that I find inconvenient. 05:23:56 <xiong> I can't even *see* the default game; the font is too small. 05:24:02 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. I see. So essntially, the reason it can't move more than 7 cars is a lack of HP? 05:24:11 <xiong> Oh no. 05:24:18 <Endymion_Mallorn> So you use OpenGFX+ BigGUI? 05:24:31 <xiong> You may well have engines that can haul far more than 6 tiles' worth of cars. 05:24:46 <xiong> No, I tried BigGUI, it was too big. I just changed the font. 05:25:06 <Endymion_Mallorn> ...Okay... 05:25:47 * Endymion_Mallorn is still basically a newb, so, try to be a little specific, what I would need to change to enable this, etc. 05:25:48 <xiong> The "standard" length of an engine or unpowered car is 1/2 tile; so 14 such is 7 tiles. 05:26:30 <xiong> Does the small font annoy you, too? Screens are bigger now and higher resolution; that kind of font made sense in the era of 640x480. 05:26:32 <Endymion_Mallorn> Things like 2cc, UKRS, NARS, and the like add in longer and shorter cars then? 05:27:07 <Endymion_Mallorn> Not at all, actually. I'm usually running 640X480 16bit. When needed I go up to 1024X768 32bit. 05:27:14 <xiong> Yes, various train sets have cars with various lengths. It was hairy for a time but now the game itself supports decimal train lengths, to one decimal place, clearly. 05:27:48 <xiong> I cannot imagine how to run more than a rudimentary layout at low res. 05:28:34 <xiong> I'm at 1280x960 and thinking how much I'd rather have... about four times as many pixels. 05:29:02 <Endymion_Mallorn> Good grief. 05:29:25 <xiong> I get into exactly the same thing that drove me, when running graphics editors on the Mac back when, to go to a second monitor. I put the main drawing on one monitor and all the menus and palettes on the other. 05:29:58 <xiong> I find it convenient to keep open a large number of windows -- vehicle, station, depot. 05:30:53 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, I see. I don't have that issue. Then again, I hate multi-display setups with a passion. I like doing one thing at one time. 05:31:03 <xiong> Um, as for how to change the font, if you don't have a large screen, you may run into difficulty quickly. The larger font means larger windows, because they are proportioned... in some way... from the title bars and button texts. 05:31:15 <andythenorth> Pikka: I should. WSF were on the 'todo' list 05:31:37 <xiong> Multiple displays are a pain but it was a solution. Today, you can buy flat panels of any arbitrary size, depending on wallet. 05:31:39 <Endymion_Mallorn> I don't change the font. When my eyes wouldn't go back from double-vision for a while, I used BigGUI. 05:31:56 <Endymion_Mallorn> I use an old IBM T42 laptop. 05:32:16 <xiong> Sorry; about what should I be specific? I love to be specific. 05:33:22 <Endymion_Mallorn> What you already were, about the standard length and so on. 05:33:28 <xiong> Ah. 05:33:42 <Endymion_Mallorn> Though I also would like to know if you're running with different options for max vehicle length. 05:33:57 <xiong> Well, you'll eventually settle into your own groove; but I can recommend some things I consider pretty basic, if you like. 05:34:54 <xiong> There's only one setting for max train length; "very long" or not. 05:35:20 <Endymion_Mallorn> Settings-wise or NewGRF-wise? Because I've found a couple of different ways to do NewGRFs that I find both fun and challenging. Though I am sorely tempted to start trying FIRS and ECS Vectors again. 05:36:01 <xiong> Sorry no, I'm wrong. Now it's a number. I have it set at the maximum, 64 tiles. I don't run trains of that length, though. 05:36:29 <xiong> FIRS, I consider core. Without it, you may as well just play pax only. 05:36:33 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-4579e3ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 05:37:05 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-4579e3ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #openttd 05:37:19 <Endymion_Mallorn> Sorry about that, I just *love* Wi-Fi. 05:37:39 <xiong> AV8, FISH, eGRVTS are all mandatory. I have Sailing Ships since I start in 1850. 05:38:24 <xiong> I'm fussy about stations so I have several station sets installed: ISRS, Canadian, Japanese, US, CHIPS, Czech... 05:38:55 <xiong> New Fences is good; if you have a lot of stuff loading, fiddle with the loading order. 05:39:20 <xiong> TTRS is great, so is (unrelated) TBRS. 05:39:43 <xiong> You want to pick out a train set you like. For me, that's NARS. 05:39:47 <Endymion_Mallorn> I'm not sure I've seen Sailing Ships, I run with 1.1.5 at the moment. I'll go to 1.2 when it gets done by PortableApps.com 05:40:15 <xiong> Well, Sailing Ships is a NewGRF; not related to game version. 05:40:43 <xiong> You can run 1.2.0-RC4; it's no more buggy than 1.1.5, IMO. 05:40:50 <Endymion_Mallorn> Let me check to see if it's there in my Online Content... 05:40:54 <xiong> Hardly bleeding edge. 05:41:17 <Endymion_Mallorn> Having checked, it's not there. 05:41:33 <xiong> Well, no point in Sailing Ships unless you're starting a lot earlier than 1950. 05:41:42 <xiong> Um, check again? 05:41:43 <Endymion_Mallorn> I like to start in '20. 05:41:52 <xiong> Sailing Ships has been around a long time. 05:42:02 * Endymion_Mallorn reloads the "Check Online Content" window again.... 05:42:19 * Endymion_Mallorn types "Sail" in Tag/Name filter 05:42:25 <Endymion_Mallorn> Blank. 05:42:55 <xiong> It seems to be sailing_ships-0.5; try GRFcrawler. 05:43:17 <xiong> It may not be something I got from Bananas. 05:43:38 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah, I tend to only do the ones I can just click on in-game. 05:43:42 <xiong> There are far, far more NewGRFs out there than are on Bananas. 05:44:21 <xiong> Installing outgame is not hard. Basically, you just download and drop it in. You don't usually even need to untarball. 05:44:40 <Endymion_Mallorn> Yes, but it still requires restarting the game. 05:45:26 <xiong> Um, no, sorry, I don't think so. Not restarting the game program, openttd. Obviously, changing NewGRF settings at all during game play is a highly questionable activity. 05:46:32 <xiong> It can be done, mind you. Lots of people do it, nobody will endorse it. 05:47:08 <Endymion_Mallorn> ... It's in BaNaNaS, but doesn't show up in the Online Content service. 05:47:43 <Endymion_Mallorn> Really? Wow. (Understand, typically when I say restart the game, I mean actually close the process) 05:49:03 <xiong> Normally, NewGRFs installed ingame... are installed ingame, while the program is running. 05:49:12 <xiong> So this is not an issue. 05:49:50 <xiong> I don't shuffle this stuff around a lot so don't take my word for any particular thing. I've stabilized. 05:50:03 <Endymion_Mallorn> Ah. 05:50:48 <xiong> As for settings: I think it's important to prohibit town from growing on its own. Town growth is cute at first but I'm uninterested. It's cheap enough to build my own "city street" roads and I retain control. 05:51:31 <xiong> I'm not sure which are default now and which not so I'm reluctant to blather on with a whole list. 05:52:06 <Endymion_Mallorn> See, I like letting the town grow - it is interesting to me. 05:52:12 <xiong> Signals, build path signals by default; cycle only through path signals. 05:52:48 <andythenorth> try searching 'ships' it will produce 'Sailing Ships' on bananas 05:52:52 <xiong> All the talk about block signals I consider a form of machismo. At one time, there were no path signals so players learned to do hard things with difficult tools. 05:53:16 <xiong> I have not yet found anything I want to do, that I can do with block signals and not with path signals. 05:53:20 <Endymion_Mallorn> On Bananas, yeah, andy. But not from within OpenTTD. 05:53:56 <Endymion_Mallorn> Personally, I've never really understood either. I just stick with one-ways and two tracks at a time with two trains running on 'em. 05:53:57 <xiong> Autorenew: Turn it on, turn it to -12, and lower the money threshold. 05:54:18 <xiong> Path signals become important in interlocking areas. 05:54:59 <xiong> Maint intervals in percents. I find 15-20 a good idea. 05:55:27 <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright. 05:55:37 <xiong> If you want to get mileage out of a train set, then Freight Multiplier to at least 5x. 05:56:13 <xiong> Then the early, weak engines really are weak and you will need to multihead in order to get any kind of throughput. Later, more powerful engines really will pull more cars. 05:56:46 <xiong> Without the freight multiplier, even a crummy engine will pull a great many heavily loaded trains. 05:57:21 <xiong> New orders are 'non-stop' by default. I don't know why you would want random stopping. 05:57:34 <Endymion_Mallorn> Me either. 05:58:17 <xiong> This setting is irritating. Every order in every order list is prefixed by non-stop. If this is the default, then the *other* alternative should be noted, if so ordered. 05:59:11 <xiong> Um, if you install the latest AV8 then you are told to set plane speed factor to 1/1; the speeds of aircraft in the set have all been properly adjusted for this. 06:00:01 <xiong> Stations: Cargo handling: I think I'm using the defaults here but I'm not sure. Improved loading and load gradually are good. 06:00:44 <xiong> Key are Allow building adjacent and allow building nonadjacent. 06:01:34 <xiong> I've set station spread pretty high; it doesn't slow the game as much as feared. But it leads to reductionist game play: One Big Station. 06:02:18 <xiong> Now, I'm playing with a spread of 16, which is much more challenging; and stations with a max platform length of 12. That's not a distinct setting, just a player decision. 06:03:04 <xiong> Smaller than that and it's hard to run enough trains to carry away cargo available. 06:03:44 <xiong> I mean, if your spread is 8, then no matter how you do it, your biggest station is 8x8. And that allows nothing for feeders. 06:05:46 <xiong> Most of the difficulty settings are a matter of taste; I like to play with a max loan of 0K, which imposes a little discipline early. But for some reason, train reversing is here, not in Advanced. 06:06:16 <xiong> I suggest you do not want trains reversing at stations. I can see some situations where this might be an advantage... but mostly, not. 06:06:40 <xiong> I have never turned disasters on. Life is tough enough. 06:07:24 <xiong> So, Endymion_Mallorn, that's about the key settings, IMO. 06:09:38 <Endymion_Mallorn> Alright. 06:09:55 <Endymion_Mallorn> And you know what, I wasn't even aware of a disaster setting! 06:11:28 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 06:12:55 <Endymion_Mallorn> But I gotta run. Pleasure talking to you - I'll be back. 06:12:59 *** Endymion_Mallorn [~pplgoldbl@ool-4579e3ca.dyn.optonline.net] has left #openttd [] 06:13:55 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 06:15:54 <xiong> A pleasure; anytime. 06:39:50 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 06:39:53 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 06:39:57 <Alberth> moin 06:40:16 <Pikka> hello Alberth 06:44:51 *** Someus [~capo@212.93.100.4] has joined #openttd 06:47:07 <Someus> I need good tutorial for building more than one train 06:48:31 <Someus> Should I update to 1.2.0? 06:49:03 <Someus> That traffic light thing 06:50:21 <Someus> OK i found in the wiki 06:54:21 <Alberth> signals :) 06:54:42 <andythenorth> smoke! 06:54:47 * andythenorth updates his patch 06:55:28 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Tutorial/Two_Platforms 07:00:24 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 07:01:16 <Someus> Should I update to 1.2.0? 07:01:42 <andythenorth> hmm 07:01:58 <andythenorth> think my smoke patch pays no attention to game's smoke setting 07:05:50 *** Someus [~capo@212.93.100.4] has quit [] 07:09:28 * andythenorth has no idea what Chance16 does, but seems to work 07:13:36 <Terkhen> good morning 07:14:07 <andythenorth> o/ 07:14:43 <Pikka> andy is the new patchman 07:15:15 <peter1138> pikka is the new pikka 07:15:37 <andythenorth> pikka is also the old pikka 07:15:39 <andythenorth> how strange 07:15:46 <andythenorth> peter1138: smoke! 07:15:52 <peter1138> don't mind if i do 07:15:55 * peter1138 lights one up 07:17:34 *** Nat_aS [~Shep@00179a279bbd.click-network.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 07:18:22 <andythenorth> so how do I prevent terraforming under industry tiles? 07:18:31 <andythenorth> it causes a quite nasty bug 07:18:31 <andythenorth> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/5009 07:18:53 <andythenorth> I can't find anything in the spec about it 07:19:00 <Pikka> it's there, andy 07:19:43 <andythenorth> where? http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Industries#Industry_tile_properties 07:19:43 <andythenorth> :P 07:20:13 <Pikka> hang on.. :P 07:20:29 <Pikka> cb 14F 07:20:48 <Pikka> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Callbacks#Disable_autosloping_.283C.2F14F.2F15D.29 07:21:27 <andythenorth> ah 07:21:31 <andythenorth> 'autoslope' 07:21:32 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/NML:Industries#Industry_tile_callbacks 07:21:52 <andythenorth> but surely 07:21:53 <andythenorth> autoslope: return CB_RESULT_NO_AUTOSLOPE; 07:21:54 <Pikka> and that "bug" I'm guessing is because cb 14E is disabling drawing the default foundations? 07:22:07 <andythenorth> yes foundations are turned off 07:22:11 <Pikka> well 07:22:16 <andythenorth> this was all solved in the old codebase 07:22:21 <Pikka> :) 07:22:22 <andythenorth> but now there is a new codebase 07:22:42 <Pikka> NML, it's all welsh to me 07:23:13 * andythenorth wonders if NML is broken 07:23:14 <andythenorth> let's see 07:25:25 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 07:25:53 <andythenorth> hmm 07:26:02 <andythenorth> 'CB_RESULT_NO_AUTOSLOPE' : 0x01, # callback 0x3C 07:26:06 <andythenorth> looks correct 07:26:27 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [] 07:27:11 <andythenorth> hmm 07:27:13 <andythenorth> smells fishy 07:27:14 <andythenorth> 'autoslope' : {'type': 'cb', 'num': 0x3B, 'flag_bit': 6}, 07:28:10 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-120-193.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 07:28:19 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:28:20 * andythenorth should stop blaming FIRS code for bugs in nml 07:30:32 <Alberth> :) 07:31:39 <andythenorth> fixed 07:32:06 <andythenorth> that means all grfs compiled with previous nml are bugged :P 07:32:12 <andythenorth> what larks :) 07:34:17 <Alberth> only ones that use the cb :) 07:34:24 <andythenorth> well yes 07:34:27 <andythenorth> which is probably FIRS 07:34:30 <andythenorth> and no others 07:35:50 <peter1138> hmm, i might try migrating my vservers to lxc 07:40:43 *** mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-132-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 07:43:01 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-120-193.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:45:31 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 07:46:29 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [] 07:46:32 *** kaenkky_ [~kaenkky_@212-226-74-9-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:46:55 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 07:47:01 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 07:47:48 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196-215-68-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 07:52:09 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-215-68-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:52:37 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 08:02:34 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:04:51 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e09ee84.bb.sky.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:08:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:13:47 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.100.24] has joined #openttd 08:19:19 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:24:23 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:31:01 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:32:44 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:39:51 <andythenorth> MB would like freely customisable effect vehicles 08:39:57 <andythenorth> which seems fair 08:40:08 * andythenorth can't code that :| 08:43:58 <peter1138> DO IT 08:45:19 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: for the love of god this is not safe for work] 08:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: an effect vehicle pool, a newgrf feature, a property for an effect vehicle ID, a callback for effect vehicle trigger (e.g. based on animation state), and a callback returning a vehicle ID (and x/y/z offset in register) 08:47:06 <Eddi|zuHause> (where "x" is in travel direction, "y" is orthogonal to travel direction) 08:47:11 <peter1138> effect vehicle pool? why? 08:47:17 <andythenorth> and then a full set of varaction 2 vars 08:47:19 <andythenorth> and optional cbs 08:47:30 <andythenorth> and performance concerns 08:47:41 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: for newgrf effect vehicles? 08:47:47 <andythenorth> and having to provide all smoke myself, rather than have the game do it :P 08:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i meant an "effect engine pool" 08:48:08 <peter1138> oh right, for the engines, not the vehicles 09:00:29 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 09:05:39 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:06:57 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:07:14 <Alberth> moin Zuu 09:07:53 <Zuu> Hello Alberth 09:10:10 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 09:10:19 <Rubidium> http://rbijker.net/openttd/realistic_layout.png is definitely a realistic track layout ;) 09:10:49 <peter1138> oh my god those graphics are so blocky and ugly! 09:11:10 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-102-22.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 09:11:49 <Pikka> ez 09:12:38 <Pikka> I wonder how much work it would be to redraw every single sprite in UKRS2 at 4x the size 09:13:03 <peter1138> load -> scale -> 400% -> save 09:13:07 <peter1138> ;) 09:13:10 <Pikka> yesbut 09:13:18 <Pikka> that would not make it sufficiently fancy 09:13:23 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B305.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 09:13:42 <Pikka> and yes, I've already tried hx and all the algorithms, they don't produce anything worthwhile. 09:14:04 <NGC3982> <@peter1138> oh my god those graphics are so blocky and ugly! 09:14:08 <NGC3982> no they are not :,( 09:14:18 <peter1138> Pikka, indeed, which is exactly the reason that we didn't use it ingame either :) 09:14:24 <peter1138> NGC3982, i was joking :) 09:14:28 <NGC3982> peter1138: ;) 09:14:47 * NGC3982 highly respects the ottd game community look on graphics. 09:14:50 <peter1138> some of the old 32bpp-ez crowd don't like it though 09:14:57 * NGC3982 also cant spell. 09:15:37 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/ez10real.png 09:15:42 <Rubidium> http://roodpetje.nl/gefixeerd/media/1/bdm-20050706-096.jpg proves http://rbijker.net/openttd/realistic_layout.png is a realistic track layout ;) 09:15:42 <peter1138> that was probably the best effort 09:15:53 <peter1138> but... it doesn't look like ttd anymore 09:16:04 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has joined #openttd 09:16:08 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.76.92] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:16:08 <NGC3982> uhm 09:16:10 <NGC3982> true 09:16:12 <NGC3982> i dont like that 09:16:19 <peter1138> Rubidium, only if it's in a station ;) 09:16:49 <peter1138> hmm, junctions in stations... 09:17:04 <Rubidium> signals in stations! 09:17:59 <V453000> signals everywhere! 09:18:07 <Pikka> hmm 09:18:11 <Eddi|zuHause> multiple trains stopping on one platform, alternating with one long train stopping at the same platform! 09:18:38 <Pikka> signals on signals 09:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> signals on tile borders 09:18:56 <Pikka> signals on custom bridgeheads hur hur 09:19:02 <V453000> underwater signals? 09:19:06 <peter1138> signals on aircraft 09:19:10 <Pikka> mixed signals 09:19:11 <Rubidium> dwarf signals 09:19:24 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, train splitting at platforms 09:19:33 <Pikka> splitting distant signals! 09:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> trains driving backwards 09:19:38 <Pikka> the best kind of signal 09:19:59 <Rubidium> ETCS! 09:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: is that something like spitting distance? 09:20:13 <peter1138> model railway mode: 09:20:27 <peter1138> if two trains collide at low speed, they become joined together 09:20:34 <peter1138> and you have to lift them off the track to separate them 09:20:39 <Eddi|zuHause> double track on one tile! 09:21:03 <peter1138> contra-fine scale 09:21:08 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: you can uncouple models without picking them up 09:21:21 <peter1138> yes but it's fiddly 09:23:50 <peter1138> drwxr-xr-x 9 mcc mcc 37933056 Apr 14 10:27 backups 09:23:53 <peter1138> that's quite scary 09:24:38 <Alberth> quite :) 09:32:08 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@yoda.zernebok.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 09:32:46 *** Born_Acorn [~bornacorn@yoda.zernebok.com] has joined #openttd 09:33:00 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host139-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 09:33:05 <Wolf01> hello 09:35:00 <__ln__> ave lupus 09:43:52 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:48:50 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:51:27 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-69-99.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]] 09:51:55 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-69-99.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 09:52:18 <andythenorth> he's back 09:52:24 <Pikka> who he? 09:52:24 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 09:52:28 <V453000> run away! 09:52:29 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 09:52:31 <drac_boy> hi 09:52:39 <Pikka> andy, when you say "MB wants", you meant to say "everyone wants" 09:56:42 <andythenorth> if the class of 'everyone' does not include andythenorth 09:56:51 <andythenorth> it's a bit like roadtypes :P 09:57:01 <andythenorth> we could do them correct in theory 09:57:08 <andythenorth> or we could actually...have them in the game :P 09:57:27 <andythenorth> Pikka: do you have inventive new smoke ideas? :o 09:57:35 <Pikka> yes 09:57:41 <Pikka> we could bodge them into the game 09:57:43 <Pikka> like trams 09:57:49 <Pikka> and then when the time comes to do them properly, we can't 09:57:52 <Pikka> because the bodge is in the way 09:58:10 <Pikka> and isn't allowed to be undone 09:58:47 <planetmaker> invent 1/8 articulated vehicles which has crazy offsets and looks like smoke 09:59:04 <Pikka> invent articulated ships, planetmaker 09:59:18 <drac_boy> hmm why articulated? 09:59:46 <drac_boy> only thing I can think of that would need to would be tug+barge combo but how many of these would players really know of :) 09:59:56 <Eddi|zuHause> we need 0lu articulated parts 10:00:40 <planetmaker> with non-zero bounding boxes 10:00:52 <peter1138> articulated smoke particles? 10:01:12 <planetmaker> of course! 10:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> make the bounding box size separate property from vehicle length 10:01:32 <peter1138> Pikka, what's the plan with trams then 10:01:43 <Pikka> there isn't one, peter 10:01:45 <Pikka> it's too hard 10:01:50 <peter1138> ikr 10:02:34 <Pikka> my preferred option would be to convert all tram tracks to road 10:02:41 <Pikka> but that's not good enough apparently 10:03:06 <andythenorth> tis too 10:03:33 <andythenorth> hmm 10:03:34 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:03:45 <andythenorth> also newgrf effect vehicles = layered sprites 10:03:56 <Pikka> also andy seems to think that I am going to code it, when I wouldn't know where to begin ;) 10:04:11 <Pikka> and have plenty of other projects which I do know how to do to be getting on with 10:04:18 <andythenorth> Pikka: you have stolen my words 10:04:23 <andythenorth> in both lines 10:04:34 <Pikka> well I think this is why peter1138 needs to do it 10:04:38 <andythenorth> I have © on "I would do it, but I don't know how and I'm busy" 10:04:45 <andythenorth> peter1138 should do it 10:04:59 <Pikka> see if you can get stevenh back to help 10:04:59 <andythenorth> just to show off 10:05:05 <Pikka> since trams are all his fault in the first place 10:06:01 <drac_boy> heh 10:07:10 <andythenorth> effect vehicles would be an easy way to do load sprites :P 10:07:23 <andythenorth> and other things 10:07:26 <andythenorth> meh 10:10:09 <andythenorth> why are newgrf effect vehicles needed? 10:10:32 <andythenorth> why not just make vehicle varaction 2 with child sprites instead of a single sprite 10:10:53 <planetmaker> composing wagons from wagon rear, cargo and wagon front would certainly be nice. And probably slow 10:10:59 <planetmaker> but yes 10:11:05 <planetmaker> childsprites might be easier 10:11:10 <planetmaker> and established 10:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: smoke as childsprite would turn when the vehicle turns 10:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: once emitted, the effect vehicle stays at the same place 10:15:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: no, the newgrf author would write code to handle that 10:16:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, he can't 10:17:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you would have to remember the last positions, and you don't have enough storage for that 10:17:01 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:17:01 <andythenorth> why? 10:17:07 <andythenorth> hmm 10:17:12 <andythenorth> good point 10:17:22 <andythenorth> but vehicles need storage anyway 10:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but specialized game storage, not universal newgrf storage 10:19:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. if you want to use child sprites, the storage must be allocated for every vehicle, even if they don't use it 10:19:34 <Eddi|zuHause> while the storage for effect vehicles is only used when you actually have effect vehicles 10:19:40 <andythenorth> but I can use an effect vehicle as a child sprite 10:19:57 <andythenorth> [fake] 10:20:03 <andythenorth> same net result 10:20:05 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you can't 10:20:18 <andythenorth> why? 10:20:21 <Eddi|zuHause> you cannot access the effect vehicle from the emitting vehicle 10:20:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so you cannot move it parallel to the vehicle 10:20:39 <andythenorth> I don't need to 10:20:45 <andythenorth> emit on every frame 10:20:51 <andythenorth> 1 frame cycke time 10:20:57 <andythenorth> cycle /s 10:21:18 <andythenorth> position 0,0,0 or whatever 10:21:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and: effect vehicle creation may be skipped as the game pleases 10:21:46 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. when the vehicle pool is full 10:22:10 <andythenorth> k so a spec might mention that 10:22:20 <Eddi|zuHause> effect vehicles and child sprites are entirely different things. don't mix the two 10:22:25 <Eddi|zuHause> it makes no sense 10:23:19 <andythenorth> technically yes 10:23:31 <andythenorth> but they will be (ab)used 10:23:46 <andythenorth> for unexpected purposes 10:26:11 * andythenorth ponders flags on ships as effect vehicles 10:26:18 <andythenorth> also wake sprites 10:26:51 <andythenorth> vehicles are going to need a full bounding box specified 10:27:05 <andythenorth> is that a newgrf version bump? 10:30:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: flags, cargo -> child sprites 10:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: sparks, smoke -> effect vehicles 10:30:44 <andythenorth> hmm....log trucks emit steam when braking 10:31:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +1, but we don't have child sprites, probably won't any time soon 10:31:47 <andythenorth> so ev will be used insteas 10:31:54 <andythenorth> instead /s 10:31:55 <drac_boy> andythenorth probably from burning out their brakes... or its the water tank emptying out onto the tires as they were meant to :p 10:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> we don't have (newgrf) effect vehicles either... 10:32:03 * oskari89 thinks that when some trucks and buses are running on sandy/gravel roads, they should lift some dust into air :) 10:32:12 <andythenorth> +1 10:32:32 <oskari89> When roadtype is sand. 10:32:37 <andythenorth> newgrf particle emitters? 10:32:47 <oskari89> Sth like that :P 10:32:50 <drac_boy> oskari89 problem is that I don't know how you would code that..especially with different vehicle weight and lengths 10:33:13 <oskari89> Vehicles rearmost point automatically? 10:33:18 <drac_boy> plus at 40km/h it probably shouldn't be making much of any dust compared to someting at 70+km/h 10:33:21 <andythenorth> the vehicle handles it 10:33:27 <andythenorth> it's nfo 10:33:34 <oskari89> Ok. 10:33:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: child sprites for vehicles are problematic, because currently the sprite of the vehicle is cached in the vehicle struct, which allows only one (or a constant number) of sprites 10:33:56 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-151.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:34:09 <planetmaker> oskari89: what's the rearmost vehicle point? :-) 10:34:24 <drac_boy> planetmaker my question exactly :p 10:34:57 <oskari89> Can it be digged from sprite alignment data? :) 10:35:02 <planetmaker> do you take the bounding box? Or the last non-transparent vehicle? At which y and z-offset? 10:35:21 <oskari89> .... 10:35:32 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-075-030.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 10:35:47 <oskari89> I understand. 10:36:37 <planetmaker> "last non-transparent pixel" I meant. But yes :-) 10:37:00 <planetmaker> Of course, if it's define, a newgrf author can work with it. After all it need not be used. But well :-) 10:37:17 <planetmaker> but there we are again at andy's smoke offsets :-P 10:37:56 <andythenorth> which incidentally, if done right, don't block a future newgrf effect vehicle spec 10:38:03 <andythenorth> at least if the spec is sane :) 10:38:46 <andythenorth> the offsets go in a register, along with an effect type 10:38:56 <andythenorth> in future, an effect vehicle ID goes in a register 10:42:16 <NGC3982> i wonder 10:42:23 <NGC3982> i so want openttd on my android phone :( 10:42:54 <drac_boy> run an emulator for now? 10:43:00 <drac_boy> sorry if thats not a very good answer :) 10:43:01 <NGC3982> oh, that exists? 10:43:02 <NGC3982> :D 10:47:43 <NGC3982> drac_boy: that is a fantastic answer. 10:47:48 * NGC3982 googles for the life of his. 10:47:49 <andythenorth> steam ships steam ships steam ships 10:47:50 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/2826/coaster_gen_1b.png 10:47:52 <NGC3982> -his + him 10:48:07 <NGC3982> andythenorth: cute. 10:48:12 <drac_boy> NGC3982 you're a strange one....it would had been obvious to anyone else..if its not on the platform ..emulate the other platform then :p 10:49:03 <NGC3982> drac_boy: well, since ive only had a decent android phone for about 12 hours, im quite new in the community. 10:52:42 <NGC3982> http://sv.appbrain.com/app/openttd/org.openttd.sdl 10:52:49 <NGC3982> what, its already on there? 10:53:08 <NGC3982> first comment: "Doesn't work with Galaxy S II." 10:53:09 <NGC3982> :E 10:56:08 *** mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-132-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:58:38 <Terkhen> to my knowledge no one bothered to create an android port and try to get it into trunk, therefore all android ports are unofficial 10:59:09 <NGC3982> well, i can see that. 10:59:48 * NGC3982 sticks to pc. 10:59:57 * NGC3982 tries to emulate tropico 2 instead. 11:00:37 <zooks> I made this heightmap using some random fractals and other algorithms, tell me what do you guys think: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/723631/test.png 11:01:26 <drac_boy> hm NGC3982 I just had to look it up now and Tropico seem interesting from the screenshots so far 11:01:33 <drac_boy> zooks doesn't look too bad 11:02:07 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:02:19 <zooks> It needs rivers though 11:05:47 <drac_boy> think I already have enough retail games to not want to bother with that one yet tho 11:14:08 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@port-92-195-19-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 11:15:00 *** mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-132-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:15:26 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-19-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:15:29 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 11:17:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 11:18:58 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-49-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:19:22 <planetmaker> is blathijs around for a chat concerning build or clean targets? 11:19:58 * drac_boy is thinking a bit too much about rivers now for some reason :-s 11:20:00 *** mal2__ [~mal2@port-92-206-251-92.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 11:20:03 * drac_boy looks at zooks 11:20:42 <zooks> heh 11:22:17 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 11:22:23 <drac_boy> hi Rhamphoryncus 11:22:57 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.84.0] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 11:23:15 <Rhamphoryncus> ahoy drac_boy 11:24:06 <drac_boy> so I don't think you had told me before, what kind of train grf would you had thought of if you started one? 11:25:16 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-19-75.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:25:29 <Rhamphoryncus> One focused on gameplay. Large sweeps on the stats to give them clear specialities 11:25:49 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.102.249] has joined #openttd 11:25:59 <Rhamphoryncus> With regular upgrades available 11:26:36 <Rhamphoryncus> With a transition to some stupid maglev ideas I have :) 11:26:38 <drac_boy> hmm not too sure I can follow but I guess I'll wait for you to eventually actually do it :) 11:26:53 <Rhamphoryncus> Don't hold your breath ;) 11:26:57 <drac_boy> heh :p 11:27:22 *** mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-132-56.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:27:45 <Rhamphoryncus> Most of the train sets have only a handful of "best" engines. The rest fill real life niches that don't apply to openttd 11:28:31 <drac_boy> what kind of niches do you mean btw? 11:29:33 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5921.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:29:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Well there's hilly vs flat terrain 11:30:19 <drac_boy> if you meant by low speed coupled with high tractive. I like to use these actually 11:30:37 <Rhamphoryncus> Which can be done by having a *slightly* lower top speed with twice the TE 11:30:49 <drac_boy> 'slightly' as in 60km/h? :) 11:30:55 <Rhamphoryncus> 10 km/h 11:31:07 <Rhamphoryncus> The real life version is only to satisfy accountants :P 11:31:42 <drac_boy> 10km/h is too slow for the game heh 11:31:55 <Rhamphoryncus> I mean 10 km/h slower than the flat engine 11:32:09 <drac_boy> does that still make it 60km/h tho? 11:32:39 <Rhamphoryncus> Earliest might be 60 km/h. There will be regular upgrades to both flat and hilly engines 11:32:46 *** zxbiohazardzx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 11:33:39 <drac_boy> ok I probably wouldn't mind it seeing that it wouldn't waste a lot of its time trying to not fly off the curve with a short train :) 11:34:00 <Rhamphoryncus> hmm? 11:34:03 <zxbiohazardzx> ohi ohi 11:34:17 <drac_boy> hi zxbiohazardzx I was wondering when I'll ever see you again :P 11:34:33 *** peter1138 [~petern@lachesis.fuzzle.org] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:35:50 <zxbiohazardzx> haha 11:36:17 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 11:36:22 <zxbiohazardzx> meh i usually forget to pop in the OTTD IRC while bouncing around in the TrinityCore (WOW-emulation) ones 11:37:02 *** mal2__ is now known as mal2 11:37:45 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx :-p 11:39:19 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus what I think about at times is this kind of curves which is not meant to be done at any sort of high speeds :p http://bpratt15.home.bresnan.net/images/UintahMoroCastle.jpg 11:39:26 <drac_boy> just so you get the idea :) 11:39:54 <Rhamphoryncus> heh 11:40:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Which doesn't exist in openttd. You just go straight up the hill 11:40:31 <drac_boy> actually it does, you not seen the screenshots where they really do have S curves .. sometimes even with 90 degree corners 11:41:47 <drac_boy> but anyway zxbiohazardzx how're you? 11:43:06 <Rhamphoryncus> You mean the ones with the fake curve sprite? 11:44:10 <zxbiohazardzx> im fine 11:44:15 <zxbiohazardzx> just read i missed out on some IRC fun :( 11:45:04 <zxbiohazardzx> @drac_boy those spiral-curves form no problem at all. as long as the banking is sufficient, i recon you could go through @ 50-80 kmph 11:46:06 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.74.197] has joined #openttd 11:46:51 <Rhamphoryncus> What happens if you stop with such banking? 11:46:57 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx yeah 11:47:13 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus nothing, except that any diner cars would have a very tiny slant in the glasses set on table 11:47:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Ah, not so much banking then 11:47:33 <drac_boy> but then I have never ever heard of diner waiters actually filling cups all the way for obvious reason 11:47:56 <Rhamphoryncus> How much curve do you need for 200 km/h? XD 11:48:59 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus way too much more than what ottd has 11:49:18 <Rhamphoryncus> huh? Openttd doesn't have banking 11:49:31 <zxbiohazardzx> @Rhamphoryncus depends on the radius 11:49:41 <Rhamphoryncus> zxbiohazardzx: see pic 11:49:53 <zxbiohazardzx> but 200 kmph would mean roughly 85 deg 11:49:59 <zxbiohazardzx> and then you still pull insane G's 11:50:05 <zxbiohazardzx> so no go on designing it 11:50:05 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus point is the normal 45 degree curves are relastically not meant for such speed ... you need something a lot more gentler than that 11:50:10 <zxbiohazardzx> @ 200 kmph you want a straight line 11:50:14 <zxbiohazardzx> or as straight as you can 11:50:17 <drac_boy> but it figures 11:50:22 <zxbiohazardzx> with R > 10km 11:50:40 *** Someus [~someus@212.93.100.4] has joined #openttd 11:50:42 <Someus> Hi 11:50:46 <planetmaker> hi 11:50:48 <Someus> I have cloned trains 11:50:49 <zxbiohazardzx> hi 11:50:50 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-102-22.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:50:51 <drac_boy> hi someus 11:50:54 <zxbiohazardzx> cool? 11:51:03 <zxbiohazardzx> i have shared-order cloned trains 11:51:04 <Someus> And they cloned trains do the same orders 11:51:11 <Someus> How can i give them seperate orders? 11:51:18 * Rhamphoryncus gene splices trains 11:51:19 <zxbiohazardzx> shared orders or actually different 11:51:22 <planetmaker> just give it separate orders? 11:51:26 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus heh 11:51:26 <Someus> Yes 11:51:32 <zxbiohazardzx> Someus if you clone it, you can just remove existing orders and add new ones 11:51:34 <Someus> I can`t figure 11:51:37 <planetmaker> yeah, well. Just give them separate orders 11:51:37 <Rhamphoryncus> If they're shared click on the bottom order line that says "shared orders" then click unshare 11:51:57 <Someus> When i give seperate orders, it applies also for second train 11:51:59 <zxbiohazardzx> if you intentionally want to keep them the same then control+clone or make it share orders with the other train. to stop sharing, click stop sharing :P 11:52:00 <planetmaker> or did you never change the orders of an existing train before? 11:52:01 <Someus> :) 11:52:02 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah they are shared 11:52:04 <Rhamphoryncus> They're shared then 11:52:10 <zxbiohazardzx> so click on "end of shared orders" 11:52:11 <Someus> How can i unshare? 11:52:17 <zxbiohazardzx> and click on -> "stop sharing" 11:52:18 <planetmaker> Someus: don't clone, but copy the train (ctrl+click vs. click) 11:52:34 <Someus> hmm 11:52:43 <Someus> Where is that "end of shared orders"? 11:52:51 <zxbiohazardzx> on the end of the order list 11:53:02 <zxbiohazardzx> it should say either -- End of Orders 11:53:07 <zxbiohazardzx> or -- End of Shared Orders 11:53:15 <zxbiohazardzx> 1 destination A 11:53:16 <Someus> Oooo 11:53:19 <zxbiohazardzx> 2 destination B 11:53:19 <Someus> YEs yes 11:53:23 <zxbiohazardzx> 3 Destination C 11:53:25 <Someus> Ok 11:53:27 <zxbiohazardzx> -- End of <> 11:53:36 <Someus> Yes i user CTRL + Click 11:53:40 <Someus> i used 11:53:40 <zxbiohazardzx> does it say end of shared ? 11:53:45 <Someus> Yes 11:53:54 <zxbiohazardzx> for simply copying but not sharing orders use normal cick 11:54:02 <Someus> oh 11:54:04 <zxbiohazardzx> to stop sharing, click that end of shared orders and stop sharing 11:54:14 <Someus> But will it copy orders as well? 11:54:46 <zxbiohazardzx> if you simply copy then it will copy orders 11:54:47 <Someus> I remember when i played this game a long ago :) 11:54:56 <zxbiohazardzx> but if you click it then then you will see they do not share orders 11:54:58 <zxbiohazardzx> they just copied it 11:55:02 <Someus> I was amazed :) 11:55:29 <Someus> Ok nice 11:56:12 <Someus> I like old graphics tough 11:56:19 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-111-15.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 11:56:22 <Someus> They have more contrast 11:57:04 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-215-68-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has joined #openttd 11:57:59 <zxbiohazardzx> i prefer some of the new graphics :P 11:58:12 <drac_boy> Someus well you more or less still could get that...just put the original grf files into the 'data' folder 11:58:27 <Someus> yeah i did it already 11:58:54 <Someus> Any suggestions for new player? 11:59:04 <Someus> Tips & Tricks? 11:59:27 <drac_boy> I dunno, I'm sorta the anti-massnetworks type so maybe you might want someone else 11:59:54 <Someus> What are your tactics? 12:00:08 <Someus> trains, cars, plains, ships? 12:00:14 <zxbiohazardzx> trains 12:00:16 <zxbiohazardzx> always 12:00:19 <drac_boy> individual lines .. mixed cargos a lot of the times on trains .. etc 12:00:19 <zxbiohazardzx> find coal and link it 12:00:25 <zxbiohazardzx> try to max out a coal line 12:00:34 <zxbiohazardzx> after that its your play as income is so big you dont have to worry :P 12:00:37 *** Pixa [~pixa@85.210.74.197] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:00:41 <planetmaker> as long-distance as you ca afford 12:00:45 <zxbiohazardzx> but low-money starts == haul coal over the map 12:00:46 <Someus> So coal is money maker? 12:00:54 <zxbiohazardzx> as bigga distance as you can without going bankrupt 12:00:55 <planetmaker> it's a viable strategy 12:01:04 <Someus> What about oil? 12:01:04 <zxbiohazardzx> yes, 50k in 1 haul isnt uncommon :P 12:01:06 * drac_boy rarely starts with coal :) 12:01:12 <zxbiohazardzx> tropical maps you go for water/oil 12:01:21 <Someus> Actually i alwais start with passengers :):) 12:01:26 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy only supercitys & passengers beat it 12:01:36 <zxbiohazardzx> but only if you can link up 2 nicely sized towns 12:01:45 <zxbiohazardzx> and if your not playing with reduced pax-payment :P 12:02:13 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx actually I do run between small towns first on some maps... with two trains of 1-3 cars each 12:02:36 <Someus> How to get better rating? 12:02:48 <drac_boy> Someus don't let cargo sit for long time 12:02:50 <zxbiohazardzx> more trains waitint on the station 12:03:00 <zxbiohazardzx> simply have a train load all the time works for cargo's 12:03:09 <zxbiohazardzx> for pax just make alot of connections 12:03:15 <Someus> drac_boy what is better - full load or just avaible? 12:03:43 *** telanus1 [~Barney_Er@196-215-68-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:04:00 <drac_boy> someus..depends on train so I dunno :) 12:04:03 <zxbiohazardzx> depends again 12:04:11 <Someus> Yeah it depends 12:04:11 <zxbiohazardzx> for cargo --> full load it 12:04:18 <zxbiohazardzx> for pax --> just go 12:04:19 <Someus> I can`t balance this thing very well 12:04:35 <Someus> what is pax? passengers? 12:04:39 <zxbiohazardzx> Someus for better tips, join a multiplayer game and ask help there 12:04:43 <zxbiohazardzx> pax = passengers & mail imo 12:04:49 <zxbiohazardzx> the passenger/city generated stuff :P 12:04:54 <drac_boy> nope..I consider mail a freight cargo :p 12:04:54 <Someus> Is it interesting to play multi? 12:04:55 <planetmaker> pax = passengers 12:04:57 <zxbiohazardzx> cargo is everything from industries 12:04:58 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:05:06 <planetmaker> and not mail 12:05:09 <zxbiohazardzx> Someus yeah its not bad to learn 12:05:21 <Someus> Are you playing now? 12:05:30 <zxbiohazardzx> planetmaker true, but i prefer to see mail as part of my passenger networks, easier to keep track of stuff 12:05:40 <zxbiohazardzx> im not Someus, but i could join in one :P 12:05:48 * drac_boy thinks zxbiohazardzx has never heard of mail trains then :) 12:05:51 <zxbiohazardzx> lemmy see what ottd verison i have 12:05:56 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: that's a different thing. But pax is a commonly used abbreviation for passengers 12:06:03 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy ow i do have mail trains, and seperate terminals for them 12:06:04 <drac_boy> especially Fast Mail or Royal Mail etc (name always varies in different areas) 12:06:06 <planetmaker> And it has not what-so-ever the meaning to also include mail 12:06:07 <zxbiohazardzx> i just put them on same network 12:06:16 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah true planet :) 12:06:26 <zxbiohazardzx> blegh 12:06:30 <zxbiohazardzx> http://paste2.org/p/1978964 12:06:34 <drac_boy> anyway afk for a while 12:06:40 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 12:07:03 <Someus> Which is better AI for beginner? 12:07:06 <zxbiohazardzx> Machiavelli are those new? and did Aokromes check them out yet or should i go fix them? 12:07:17 <planetmaker> Someus: that depends on the definition of 'good' 12:07:37 <Someus> I experienced a very smart AI, whenever i built a way from city to city, AI immediately used this way :D 12:07:54 <zxbiohazardzx> eehm last 2 lines should have been in the other IRC my bad 12:07:57 <Someus> Like parasite 12:07:57 <zxbiohazardzx> Someus: none :P 12:08:16 <zxbiohazardzx> if you dont want AI to play against then soloplay is still good to see what you can/cant do etc 12:08:33 <zxbiohazardzx> AI can be used to make the game more challenging 12:08:40 <Someus> I want AI 12:08:44 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:08:58 <zxbiohazardzx> then just check the forums, most AI's have a topic explaining what they do etc 12:09:15 <zxbiohazardzx> some only build busses, others do certain lines only, forums offer some extra details on that 12:09:16 <Someus> I downloaded from openttd launcher 12:09:19 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:d917:d87c:c050:1296] has joined #openttd 12:09:22 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 12:09:34 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah but most of those also have a topic on the forums with extra info 12:09:36 <Someus> Also i downloaded all newGRF :) 12:09:38 *** pete1 [~pete@g227004087.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #openttd 12:09:55 <Someus> Haven`t activated them yet 12:10:01 <zxbiohazardzx> jeej for compatibility issues then 12:10:02 <zxbiohazardzx> :P 12:10:14 <Someus> I hope to see something intereting 12:10:16 <zxbiohazardzx> in b4 errors of multiple conflicting sets 12:10:31 <Someus> Shouldn`t i use them 12:10:31 <Someus> ? 12:10:44 <planetmaker> Someus: you should not use all newgrfs. They will conflict 12:11:01 <planetmaker> Choose some small selection which work well together 12:11:03 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 12:11:09 <planetmaker> try them possibly one by one 12:11:14 <Someus> Yeah sure 12:11:29 <pete1> where are the openttd datafiles save by default in linux? 12:11:36 <Someus> What are plans for openttd? 12:11:42 <planetmaker> readme, section 4, line 188, pete1 12:11:53 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 12:12:17 <glx> planetmaker: you know it by heart ? 12:12:22 <frosch123> he, i would also have known section4, but you can already the line number? 12:12:40 <Someus> :) 12:12:47 <Someus> Because he is developer 12:12:48 <zxbiohazardzx> i recon he used quicksearch for that glx 12:12:59 <zxbiohazardzx> and i recon that this aint the first time someone asked 12:13:04 <Someus> That`s nothing special :) 12:13:15 <Someus> He is into it 12:14:22 <zxbiohazardzx> thats what she said 12:14:40 <Someus> she? 12:14:53 <planetmaker> frosch123: yes, I meanwhile know. I remember it from my browser's URL. It has lines encoded :-) 12:15:01 <planetmaker> http://vcs.openttd.org/svn/browser/tags/1.2.0-beta4/readme.txt#L188 12:15:15 <planetmaker> for those who don't find it alongside their own openttd 12:15:50 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: no, I really know by heart 12:16:00 <planetmaker> I answer that question about every 3 days or so 12:17:32 <planetmaker> though I feel very friendly giving that URL now, given the abuse I got from pete1 in private 12:20:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Okay, there's train fans, then there's this: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ba0SmAJfu_Y/TNdisNkcvtI/AAAAAAAABQw/_M-AxtYx2xE/s1600/GN441liv5.jpg 12:21:17 <Rhamphoryncus> http://yankeedogsflyingcircus.blogspot.ca/2010/11/got-spare-locomotive-lying-around.html 12:21:35 *** pete1 [~pete@g227004087.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #openttd [] 12:21:42 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:24:08 <zxbiohazardzx> Aokromes --> SELECT * FROM `gameobject_loot_template` WHERE `entry`=10961 returns anything on your db? 12:24:43 <planetmaker> wth do you do, zxbiohazardzx? 12:24:44 <frosch123> wrong channel :) 12:24:56 <zxbiohazardzx> meh wrong one planetmaker :P 12:25:10 <zxbiohazardzx> i have like 10 channels open, missed the trinitycore channel and hit the ottd one :P 12:25:46 <planetmaker> don't do that with your girl friends. It has more sever consequences ;-) 12:26:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, sever is about right 12:26:17 *** Pinkbeast [damerell@chiark.greenend.org.uk] has joined #openttd 12:26:38 <zxbiohazardzx> planetmaker nah they know about eachother, its ok 12:32:59 <Someus> Now i am shiping passengers 12:40:40 <planetmaker> all to an oil rig? ;-) 12:41:16 <zxbiohazardzx> haha epic 12:41:26 <zxbiohazardzx> just send pax trains to your HQ 12:41:38 <zxbiohazardzx> i can send ALOT of ppl to my HQ in that way 12:41:54 <zxbiohazardzx> HQ is 2x2 tiles, yet should house about 1 gazillion ppl in some maps :P 12:43:03 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.84.0] has joined #openttd 12:45:19 *** SquireJames [52081a66@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 12:45:27 <SquireJames> Hello all 12:45:56 <planetmaker> HELO 12:46:02 <SquireJames> I was wondering if someone might do me a small favour 12:46:06 <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm. Another thing to explore on my hypothetical trainset is differential running cost to simulate track wear for different track types 12:46:28 <SquireJames> I can't seem to download any version of OTTD off the site. It times out no matter whether I choose a Nightly, Stable or Testing 12:46:39 <SquireJames> Does the same on my wifes laptop, so I am wondering if the site is down 12:47:03 <zxbiohazardzx> helo? in caps? tsss 12:47:20 <zxbiohazardzx> SquireJames ill try downloading 1 sec 12:47:22 <planetmaker> SquireJames: what URL does binaries.openttd.org resolve to for you? 12:47:32 <planetmaker> if you enter it in your browser 12:47:37 <Rhamphoryncus> SquireJames: connects just fine for me 12:47:49 <SquireJames> Latest nightly url is 12:47:51 <SquireJames> http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r24114/openttd-trunk-r24114-windows-win64.zip 12:47:57 <NGC3982> i have been looking at the nick all this time, reading "SquirrelJames". 12:48:15 <zxbiohazardzx> works for me (University of Twente mirror) 12:48:20 * NGC3982 feels horrible. 12:48:28 <planetmaker> SquireJames: I mean the link I posted. Put that in your browser and hit enter 12:48:30 <zxbiohazardzx> if you click it, what FTP does it point to 12:48:32 <SquireJames> Hmm, i've tried it on both Firefox and IE, no go 12:48:43 <planetmaker> not the one you pasted 12:49:00 <SquireJames> oh okay, one moment 12:49:07 <frosch123> SquireJames: that url resolves to different servers depending on your location, so we need to know *which* mirror you are directed to 12:49:36 *** mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-232-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 12:49:51 <SquireJames> Right, I copy and pasted binaries.openttd.org into my browser 12:49:59 <planetmaker> yes 12:49:59 <SquireJames> timed out still, but resolved to this 12:50:01 <SquireJames> http://gb.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/index.html 12:50:18 <planetmaker> ok. that's the info we need. peter's server. And he's not online. Thanks 12:50:31 <Someus> I like this game :) 12:50:34 <SquireJames> Is there a way to direct to a different server? 12:50:36 <Rhamphoryncus> http://us.binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r24114/openttd-trunk-r24114-windows-win64.zip 12:50:40 <frosch123> SquireJames: now just replace that "uk" with someting else 12:50:43 <frosch123> e.g. nl 12:50:44 <SquireJames> ah okay 12:50:50 <Rhamphoryncus> which doesn't work lol 12:51:04 <zxbiohazardzx> nl works fine 12:51:15 <planetmaker> hm, us neither?! 12:51:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Just the nightly isn't there 12:51:33 <planetmaker> yes. still. It should 12:51:45 <Rhamphoryncus> So it's a totally different problem XD 12:51:50 <SquireJames> http://us.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/nightlies/trunk/r24114/index.html 12:51:53 <SquireJames> that one worked for me 12:52:00 <zxbiohazardzx> dutch one works for me 12:52:39 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, my fault, URL is wrong 12:53:16 <Rhamphoryncus> http://binaries.openttd.org/nightlies/trunk/r24114/ -> http://us.binaries.openttd.org/binaries/nightlies/trunk/r24114/index.html 12:53:19 <SquireJames> phew, well at least I know its not my ISP or my antivirus blocking stuff arbitrarily 12:53:33 <Rhamphoryncus> both us. and /binaries added 12:54:27 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 12:54:30 <drac_boy> hi 12:55:37 <SquireJames> Hello there 12:56:36 <drac_boy> how're you squire? :) 12:56:57 *** mal2 [~mal2@port-92-206-251-92.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:59:17 <SquireJames> No bad :) finally got over my flu bug 12:59:27 <SquireJames> just in time for work.. *sigh* 12:59:32 <drac_boy> ic, thats good 13:01:04 <drac_boy> work? meh no fun is it? 13:01:11 *** Pikka_ [~chatzilla@d58-111-69-99.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 13:01:32 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:01:55 <SquireJames> Particular my job. Feels like I accomplish nothing but there we go 13:04:43 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-69-99.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:04:48 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. I wonder if flat vs hilly should only apply to older engines. Modern ones sound like they're converging on 6 axle with TE limited only by the tracks 13:04:54 *** Pikka_ is now known as Pikka 13:05:46 <drac_boy> metro trainset with 1000+ passenger capacity and 110km/h ..hmm 13:05:50 <zxbiohazardzx> on the chrill patchpack my landscape generation is screwed 13:06:00 <zxbiohazardzx> has 2 extremes and more smoothness options 13:06:04 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus depends on which 'grades' you are using 13:06:14 <zxbiohazardzx> but that screwed up the whole generator, but then again its the patchpack version i dunno 13:06:24 <zxbiohazardzx> stable ottd at least generated the map i expected it to :P 13:06:24 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: hmm? 13:07:20 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus there was one direct line (now its sitting weedy) that was rather steep that even your modern diesel-ac locomotive only could take barely 900 tonnes up. and thats 3000+hp you have on six axles ^_^ 13:07:37 <drac_boy> but if you're only going with 1% setting I guess maybe yeah it wouldn't matter 13:08:10 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: HP is irrelevant in that situation. It's all about TE, which is limited by the track design and the number of axles 13:08:30 *** duality [~duality@a91-156-121-158.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 13:08:57 <drac_boy> well yeah I don't know what the listed tractive is for many of these recent emd/ge locomotives .. just know that they're usually with ac drive tho 13:09:51 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 13:11:56 <Rhamphoryncus> A few of the wikipedia pages list it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_SD90MAC 13:14:02 <SquireJames> So this hypothetical train set, I assume its a US-themed set? 13:14:15 <Rhamphoryncus> No theme 13:14:27 <Rhamphoryncus> It's meant to explore gameplay, not realism 13:17:33 <SquireJames> Ah I see 13:17:44 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 13:20:44 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axleload 13:22:43 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e09ee84.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 13:32:36 <drac_boy> how do you make it that a train can't even leave the depot if it does not have a caboose on it btw? just wondering about something else related to that now 13:32:51 <Rhamphoryncus> I've no idea how that works 13:34:14 <zxbiohazardzx> you can make the engine check for a vehicle ID in its list? 13:34:32 <drac_boy> hmm good guess... 13:34:41 * drac_boy checks the newgrf for something to do with id limit 13:35:42 <Rhamphoryncus> They can change appearance and such when you reorganize a train. Presumably that's what checks for the caboose 13:35:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. Maybe without a caboose the engine is marked as not supporting any track types? 13:36:58 <planetmaker> drac_boy: you set a specific bitmask_vehicle_info for the caboose. You then check for the bitmask to have the caboose's bit set and disallow leaving depot when not set 13:37:16 <planetmaker> (e.g. by setting max speed to 0 in that case) 13:37:39 <planetmaker> probably there are other solutions, too 13:38:24 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: you cannot change the tracktype to not supported probably. Otherwise you couldn't build the engine in the first place 13:38:40 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: *nod* 13:39:02 <Rhamphoryncus> But the principle is the same: check when the caboose is added and make the engine unusable somehow 13:39:38 <planetmaker> Thus with bitmask_vehicle_info set you can query the variable bitmask_consist_info in the speed callback 13:39:47 <planetmaker> (which is called upon consist change) 13:39:58 <drac_boy> hmm looks like it'll be a bit too much for me, thanks for the name tho planetmaker 13:40:54 <planetmaker> I quoted NML names. In NFO they might be called slightly different 13:41:28 <michi_cc> No need for hacks like setting the speed to zero, just use callback 31 (Vehicle Start/stop check). 13:41:58 <planetmaker> you also would want to make use of vehicle_is_in_depot in that CB 13:42:23 <planetmaker> ah, right, much better, michi_cc :-) 13:43:09 <planetmaker> start_stop in NML 13:44:16 <drac_boy> hmm thanks michi_cc, might think about it after all then 13:47:46 *** Poorunfortunatesouls [5199cdb7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 13:47:58 <Poorunfortunatesouls> hey guys, can I ask a question please? 13:48:20 <Alberth> try it 13:48:40 <drac_boy> hi Alberth :) 13:48:50 <Poorunfortunatesouls> i've got some grfs and all that - but I want to load a game without them installed as I want the normal ingame things 13:49:04 <Alberth> not possible 13:49:09 <Poorunfortunatesouls> not at all? 13:49:32 <Alberth> a game contains the grfs that it needs, so if you load a game, you also load the grfs 13:49:48 <Alberth> you have to remove all grfs from the main menu, and then start a new game 13:49:51 <Poorunfortunatesouls> so I can't select which grfs I want in one game compared to another? 13:50:34 <Alberth> sure you can, but only before you start a new game, you can decide what grfs you want 13:50:47 <Alberth> once you started, the set of grfs is fixed for that game 13:50:52 <Poorunfortunatesouls> yeah that's what i'm asking - how do I do that? 13:51:01 <Alberth> go to the main menu 13:51:03 <Poorunfortunatesouls> I can't seem to select and deselect which ones I want 13:51:11 <Alberth> then newgrf settings 13:51:35 <Alberth> main menu = the screen that openttd starts with 13:51:41 <Alberth> ie not from within a game 13:51:44 <Poorunfortunatesouls> mmhmm 13:53:20 <zxbiohazardzx> there is a hacky way but its on your own risk, so go with alberths way 13:53:39 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: that's only for newgrf developers, not for players 13:54:17 *** Someus [~someus@212.93.100.4] has quit [] 13:55:10 *** Pikka [~chatzilla@d58-111-69-99.rdl800.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:56:34 <Poorunfortunatesouls> what do I do next Alberth? 13:56:57 <Alberth> what do you want to do? 13:57:18 <Poorunfortunatesouls> I want to take out the suspended monorail, and japanese trains and ukfinescale which it keeps saying is broken 13:57:45 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 13:58:04 <Alberth> make a (mental) note that this combination is not working, and abort the game 13:58:20 <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth meh as a player i have it on 13:58:28 <Alberth> make a better newgrf setup, and start a new game 13:58:28 <zxbiohazardzx> if my game breaks then i know i fucked up, my risk 13:58:30 <zxbiohazardzx> :P 13:58:46 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: living at the edge eh? :) 13:58:46 <drac_boy> why japset+ukrails? :P 13:58:47 <zxbiohazardzx> mental note, paper note, notepad note, :P 13:58:54 <Poorunfortunatesouls> so remove the grfs I don't want to use from the menu 13:58:57 <Poorunfortunatesouls> close the game 13:58:58 <zxbiohazardzx> partially Alberth 13:58:59 <Poorunfortunatesouls> and reload? 13:59:09 <Alberth> reload won't work 13:59:14 <zxbiohazardzx> some additions are considered safe anyway if i read planets post correctly 13:59:23 <Alberth> you cannot change newgrfs in a running game 13:59:24 <zxbiohazardzx> and again if i fucked it up, then I fucked it up :P 13:59:43 <zxbiohazardzx> XD 13:59:57 <Poorunfortunatesouls> it's still not working :( 14:00:01 <Alberth> if you want to continue to play this game, you're stuck with the current grfs 14:00:27 <Poorunfortunatesouls> no 14:00:29 <Poorunfortunatesouls> it's a new game 14:00:35 <Poorunfortunatesouls> i've made a scenario 14:00:57 <Poorunfortunatesouls> and I want to play that scenario, but without the suspended monorail, japanese trains, etc etc 14:00:58 <Alberth> a scenario = a game 14:01:03 <Poorunfortunatesouls> I haven't played it yet 14:01:06 <Poorunfortunatesouls> it's brand new 14:01:07 <Alberth> unfortunately :( 14:01:36 <Poorunfortunatesouls> but i haven't played it yet? 14:01:48 <drac_boy> alberth what if he deleted the company .. went back to scenario editor, change grf and correct any landscape bugs ... and start a new game? 14:01:53 <zxbiohazardzx> meh strip it :P 14:02:00 <Alberth> you saved the file, that's enough to get stuck with the choices made by the scenario author (ie you) 14:02:29 <Alberth> drac_boy: in general won't work 14:02:45 <Poorunfortunatesouls> are you shitting me? Lol. So let me get this straight... 14:02:53 <Alberth> Poorunfortunatesouls: you can reload in the scenario editor, and save it as height-map 14:03:00 <Alberth> then start from that height map 14:03:15 <zxbiohazardzx> what is he trying to remove anyway? 14:03:17 <Poorunfortunatesouls> I need to remove the grfs, then create a scenario, and it should work then? 14:03:42 <Poorunfortunatesouls> zxbiohazardzx - Suspended monorail, japanese train sets, UK Finescale 14:03:50 <Alberth> then you have a scenario without grfs, and you won't have them for the entire game 14:04:07 <Poorunfortunatesouls> no, because I'll only remove the ones I don't want... 14:04:20 <Alberth> unfortunately, scenarios are very broken at the moment 14:04:22 <zxbiohazardzx> only the trainset will cause problems if you have any trains 14:04:30 <zxbiohazardzx> if you dont have trains then all 3 can be removed safely 14:04:40 <zxbiohazardzx> monorail only adds a railtype, removing it is "safe" 14:04:47 <Alberth> lol 14:04:48 <zxbiohazardzx> uk finescale similar story 14:04:50 <Poorunfortunatesouls> my dissertation wasn't this flipping confusing. 14:05:09 <zxbiohazardzx> if you have 0 trains then you can actually kill them out 14:05:22 <zxbiohazardzx> thats how i recovered a savegame of my own with some bad newgrfs 14:05:26 <Poorunfortunatesouls> but I base my transport systems around trains 14:05:34 <Alberth> Poorunfortunatesouls: it's not confusing, the scenario author controls which newgrfs you must use 14:05:36 <zxbiohazardzx> simply remove all trains then you can "safely" remove grfs related to them 14:05:53 <zxbiohazardzx> @Poorunfortunatesouls you cannot remove a GRF that is still in use;) 14:06:16 <zxbiohazardzx> just ask yourself: if i remove the train-graphics, what will the game show on my train...? 14:06:20 <teggi> any newgrf that by default sets cargocreation to max on all industries? 14:06:30 <drac_boy> whats cargocreation? 14:06:37 <teggi> bad english. :D 14:06:39 * Alberth ponders removing the option entirely, as users continue spreading their use 14:06:40 <Poorunfortunatesouls> When I say 'remove' I mean 'remove' in the newgrf settings panel 14:06:54 <zxbiohazardzx> yes same here 14:06:55 <teggi> drac_boy: meant production of cargo on e.g forests etc 14:07:13 <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth lolwut? 14:07:24 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: you heard me 14:07:29 <drac_boy> teggi there is I think a particular grf (or was it just ottd advanced option in the cfg?) that lets you set outputs to whatever you want to between 32 to 2000+ tonnes 14:07:36 <zxbiohazardzx> im not sure i got it though :) 14:07:37 <drac_boy> its a silly idea I think but then whatever :) 14:07:50 <teggi> to each his own :p 14:07:58 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: THE OPTION IS FOR NEWGRF DEVELOPERS ONLY 14:08:07 <drac_boy> I mean a lumber mill clearly can't produce 2000+ tonnes if theres almost no trees around :p 14:08:08 <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth whats life without a little risk 14:08:19 <zxbiohazardzx> if your willing to accept the concequences then the option is for everyone 14:08:21 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: that you life at the edge, fine 14:08:24 <zxbiohazardzx> but dont come crying along 14:08:34 <teggi> drac_boy i'd only like to change iron ore mines, coal mines etc, not the factories ++ 14:08:40 <zxbiohazardzx> there are more options in a computer that have that behaviour 14:08:43 <Alberth> but don't continue spreading it to other users 14:08:45 <zxbiohazardzx> delete a huge file 14:08:53 <zxbiohazardzx> omg qq i accidentally did this 14:08:54 <drac_boy> teggi.. factories are not output industries .. they're secondary industries :) 14:09:11 <teggi> yeah, it just seemed you meant the secondaries aswell 14:09:13 <zxbiohazardzx> there is stilla "are you absolutely sure, all warrenty is lost etc" huge warning 14:09:21 <zxbiohazardzx> i dont see the problem with letting ppl know it exists 14:09:37 <zxbiohazardzx> the fact that it exists is good, and if ppl want to risk it to see if they can benefit from it in any way then let them 14:09:43 <Alberth> they don't read it, or don't understand it, and come crying to us 14:09:47 <zxbiohazardzx> save the file, try the change, if it crashes, load the old 14:09:59 <Alberth> crash is the good way of dying 14:10:09 <zxbiohazardzx> @Alberth yeah the QQ folks will always stay, regardless of what you do 14:10:30 <Alberth> normally it corrupts the file, and act 'weird' later 14:10:38 <zxbiohazardzx> i dont even understand why the NewGRF data isnt saved along the savegame in that case 14:10:45 <zxbiohazardzx> then you dont have "version" issues either 14:10:47 <Poorunfortunatesouls> I honestly don't understand a word being said. Can someone tell me, step-by-step, how to create a scenario, that I can play, without the ones I don't want? 14:10:53 <Alberth> hence my consideration of remving it entirely. End of discussion 14:10:59 <Alberth> game over 14:11:09 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx problem is... newgrf can be 10+MB while a save would be only a few hundred kbs at the worst 14:11:16 <zxbiohazardzx> yes drac_boy 14:11:18 <drac_boy> so its a pointless idea..especially ever more if autosave is on 14:11:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Poorunfortunatesouls: Set the newgrf options you want from the start menu, start game 14:11:31 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:11:37 <zxbiohazardzx> if the NewGRF cannot be "hot-swapped" then yes they should be integrated in the savegame 14:11:41 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus I think thats already been mentioned 14:11:42 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has joined #openttd 14:11:49 <planetmaker> 16:08 Poorunfortunatesouls: zxbiohazardzx - Suspended monorail, japanese train sets, UK Finescale <-- I know that removing those three WILL 100% leave you with cruft which will not work as it should 14:11:56 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx I do NOT want 20+mb saves...especially when theres more than ten of them 14:11:58 <drac_boy> ok? 14:12:03 <zxbiohazardzx> aka anything that makes the game unplayable after removal (and again, not all GRFs make it unplayable) 14:12:15 <Rhamphoryncus> drac_boy: too many things have been mentioned 14:12:17 <planetmaker> any NewGRF removal will break it. 14:12:18 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:12:19 <zxbiohazardzx> drac_boy , you prefer having 20 versions of eg 2CC set in your grflist? 14:12:20 <planetmaker> or can break it 14:12:20 <drac_boy> Rhamphoryncus heh :) 14:12:46 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: that's what one does have, yes. Nothing bad with that 14:12:49 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx why are you trying to play so many different games at once than finish one all the way? 14:12:54 <planetmaker> But you only get shown the newest one usually 14:13:09 <zxbiohazardzx> nah my list of grfs hates me bigtime :P 14:13:11 <planetmaker> when selecting newgrfs for a new game 14:13:16 <Alberth> Poorunfortunatesouls: in short, start again. You can get the heightmap from your old scenario if you like 14:13:28 *** goodger [~ben@94-30-43-248.xdsl.murphx.net] has joined #openttd 14:13:39 <planetmaker> but you cannot update the newgrfs on an existing scenario without screwing up majorly 14:13:44 * drac_boy only has like about 15-20 grfs for all four climates anyhow. and two cfg files 14:13:48 <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz i tried 14:13:52 <zxbiohazardzx> it fails on the trainsets indeed 14:13:59 <zxbiohazardzx> but some town & trees updated just fine 14:14:01 <planetmaker> that's what I'm saying 14:14:03 <zxbiohazardzx> same for road/rails 14:14:12 <zxbiohazardzx> so its tricky 14:14:14 <planetmaker> town update fails, too 14:14:14 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 14:14:21 <zxbiohazardzx> hmmz then i got lucky :P 14:14:30 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: we are not kidding by discouraging its use! 14:14:51 <zxbiohazardzx> dont get me wrong im not saying you shouldnt discourage its use 14:15:00 <drac_boy> zxbiohazardzx another thing is...how do YOU think orudge would feel when the savegame uploads on forum suddenly goes from 4mb/day average to 30+mb/day average? 14:15:13 <drac_boy> thats a lot of bandwidth useage for "duplications" 14:15:20 <zxbiohazardzx> but do allow me to risk shit myself, im nt a wintendo user who needs a hand while peeing like a 5 year old 14:15:34 <zxbiohazardzx> if you dont want to read a huge red warning text before changing anything 14:15:35 <Alberth> drac_boy: and a good way to make sure any newgrf will never disappear :) 14:15:38 <planetmaker> newgrfs need not be part of savegames. But they're uniquely identified in the savegames 14:15:40 <zxbiohazardzx> then your not eligible for anything 14:15:43 <Rhamphoryncus> I have.. 48 GRFs I typically use 14:15:53 <drac_boy> planetmaker yeah that I could agree with for a change :) 14:16:00 <planetmaker> and bananas ensures that you can always retrieve the correct one. If you use those only which are thereon 14:16:06 <zxbiohazardzx> fair enough plantemaker, but not all the GRFs are on banana's 14:16:24 <planetmaker> yeah. Nor will ever be all there. 14:16:25 <zxbiohazardzx> specially Romazoon had a habit of picking the beta/nightly/whatever version of a GRF that is not and will never be on banana's 14:16:28 * drac_boy points zxbiohazardzx to download opencoopgrf then if you want only one secondary source 14:16:30 <planetmaker> but that's your risk 14:16:31 <zxbiohazardzx> try getting those files XD 14:16:35 <zxbiohazardzx> same risk, same game 14:16:42 <zxbiohazardzx> if i try to update them to banana versions 14:16:49 <drac_boy> planetmaker yeah 14:16:57 <zxbiohazardzx> then thats my risk, the big red warning is enough for most ppl 14:17:05 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: don't use non-bananas in the first place, if you fear to loose the newgrfs 14:17:11 <zxbiohazardzx> im not affraid :P 14:17:34 <zxbiohazardzx> as i said, i love that "i know the risk, let me play and see if it crashes" option 14:17:38 <zxbiohazardzx> its like a minigame inside the game 14:18:00 *** Lachie [whitey@creep.bur.st] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:18:00 * planetmaker doesn't like that 14:18:15 *** Lachie [whitey@creep.bur.st] has joined #openttd 14:18:18 * zxbiohazardzx wonders why 14:18:21 <V453000> well if you migrate all your openttd data including savegames, newgrfs and other stuff every time you change pc, you are ok with any newgrfs 14:18:29 <zxbiohazardzx> haha 14:18:36 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:18:38 <planetmaker> I get the bugs which you produce by forcefully screwing it, zxbiohazardzx 14:18:39 <zxbiohazardzx> thats my issue mainly V453000 14:18:48 <zxbiohazardzx> nope you dont planetmaker 14:18:50 <planetmaker> and then spend my time figuring out only to see that you wanted it to crash 14:18:52 <V453000> but of course having newgrf on bananas is absoutely amazing 14:18:58 <zxbiohazardzx> any bugs in the marked games are not reported :P 14:19:07 <planetmaker> that's what she says 14:19:10 <zxbiohazardzx> i cant recall i reported anything anyway but still 14:19:14 <zxbiohazardzx> XD 14:19:31 <zxbiohazardzx> im using chrill patchpack on some of those saves as well 14:19:49 <zxbiohazardzx> << must.have.signals_in_tunnels&on_bridges >> :P 14:20:09 <zxbiohazardzx> high traffic networks + superlong bridges/tunnels == musthave patch :p 14:20:18 <zxbiohazardzx> but yeah 14:20:25 <zxbiohazardzx> i do see your pov planetmaker 14:20:40 <zxbiohazardzx> but i like to add some stuff i "forgot" to add 14:20:50 <Rubidium> signals on tunnels and bridges is a bad concept 14:20:54 <zxbiohazardzx> or remove 1-2 station GRFs that flooded the list (is there still a limit?) 14:21:00 <drac_boy> planetmaker I have to agree, pointless bugs are a annoying WASTE OF TIME 14:21:06 <zxbiohazardzx> Rubidium the patch is hacky and bad, the general idea is good 14:21:09 <drac_boy> thats why I always turn off auto-bugreport in any oses I use 14:21:45 <Rubidium> zxbiohazardzx: no, it's not. The idea should be: build infrastructure on bridges/in tunnels in the same way you do at ground level 14:22:20 <zxbiohazardzx> Rubidium that would also allow stations & waypoints for example? 14:22:32 <zxbiohazardzx> and thus introduce underground stations & layers, hell even bends and curves 14:22:37 <Rubidium> yes, and different kinds of signals at different locations on the bridge 14:22:39 <zxbiohazardzx> but since that wont happen any day soon 14:22:48 <Rubidium> and possibly even crossovers in tunnels 14:22:58 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: thus we should make it impossible for all future? 14:23:05 <zxbiohazardzx> not at all 14:23:11 <zxbiohazardzx> but untill you release all that fancy shit 14:23:17 <zxbiohazardzx> im playing with something that works for now :P 14:23:26 <zxbiohazardzx> hacky & bad yes, but functional for now :) 14:23:27 <planetmaker> adding hacks makes good solutions sometimes impossible 14:23:33 <zxbiohazardzx> i know about that 14:23:38 <zxbiohazardzx> <-- trinitycore Wow 14:23:46 <zxbiohazardzx> i know that in trunk you cannot accept it 14:23:50 <Rubidium> not "hasn't blown up in my face yet"? 14:24:04 <zxbiohazardzx> Rubidium what? 14:24:24 <Rubidium> instead of the "works for now" 14:24:40 <drac_boy> hmm could I be missing any other english/translated-to terms here? subway, metro, tube, underground railway 14:24:42 <Rhamphoryncus> hey, the start of a 32bpp newgrf is on bananas XD 14:24:43 <zxbiohazardzx> haha 14:24:50 <drac_boy> its just for as general term btw 14:24:58 <zxbiohazardzx> hasnt blown up yet, nor smoked enough for me to worry too much about it 14:25:13 <zxbiohazardzx> what about IS sharing? 14:25:21 <zxbiohazardzx> i know the flaw with income sharing 14:25:31 <zxbiohazardzx> but imo thats seperate patch/issue 14:25:41 <zxbiohazardzx> infra sharing makes it possible to share the infra, not income :P 14:26:04 <Rubidium> if you want station sharing, then you must fix the income sharing issue first 14:26:15 <zxbiohazardzx> why that? 14:26:23 <planetmaker> to avoid bug reports 14:26:44 <planetmaker> as people *will* complain that they don't get income for their vehicles while they should 14:26:54 <zxbiohazardzx> ofc 14:27:07 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: it's a separate patch, but it's a prerequisite 14:27:08 <planetmaker> so first fix the money distribution if you transfer fright via oil rigs 14:27:17 <planetmaker> *freight 14:27:27 <planetmaker> maybe also fright, though 14:27:29 <zxbiohazardzx> so first you have to adress income sharing / money transfer before you can share other stuff 14:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> exactly 14:28:02 <zxbiohazardzx> lame but fair enough :P 14:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> if you fix transfer payment in the process, that's fine too 14:28:11 <zxbiohazardzx> <-- lacks coding skills :( 14:28:49 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 14:29:58 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:31:29 <drac_boy> oh well I think I'll just go with a few fixed consists, too much trouble figuring out the callbacks 14:33:44 *** SquireJames [52081a66@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 14:37:02 *** roboboy [~robotboy@CPE-58-173-43-55.nxzp1.ken.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:39:07 <drac_boy> taking a break now..been at this for too long now -_- 14:39:12 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 14:45:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: how would you remove the option to change newgrf? 14:45:41 <andythenorth> it's already 'removed' :P 14:46:05 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:46:08 <Alberth> throw out all code related to the option 14:47:15 <andythenorth> hmm 14:47:18 <andythenorth> tempting 14:47:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: and how is a developer supposed to debug changes? 14:47:25 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 14:47:26 <andythenorth> is the problem :P 14:47:28 <Alberth> restart 14:47:36 <andythenorth> ha 14:47:48 <andythenorth> how about compile own version with a compiler flag set? 14:48:01 <andythenorth> restart is unacceptable :P 14:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you realize that one of the biggest problems in debugging is getting to a state where you can reproduce the effect? 14:49:08 <Alberth> you familiar with the save game concept, I hope? :p 14:49:13 <Alberth> +are 14:49:35 <Alberth> but yeah, it sucks in a very major way for newgrf developers 14:51:14 <andythenorth> but being a newgrf developer sucks anyway :P 14:51:19 <andythenorth> no gratitude 14:51:21 <andythenorth> no fanbase 14:51:29 <andythenorth> no download fees 14:51:33 <andythenorth> and no newgrf smoke 14:51:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: yes, but a savegame won't help me if i can't alter the GRF in that savegame, to reload the changes i made 14:52:33 <planetmaker> indeed as newgrf developer I rely on being able to update or change newgrfs in existing games 14:52:39 *** sla_ro|master [~slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 14:53:06 <andythenorth> ach I solved this last week 14:53:10 <andythenorth> deprecate newgrf 14:53:19 <andythenorth> it also demonstrably improves game performance 14:53:36 <andythenorth> and removes the main source of support / feature requests 14:54:35 <zxbiohazardzx> lol @ andythenorth 14:54:49 <zxbiohazardzx> so much hate on an option that is already well hidden and pops huge warning 14:55:20 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: the warning means nothing, we had it before and yet we had to take additional action 14:55:46 <andythenorth> all we get now is pointless requests to put a sticky at the top of the forums 14:55:54 <andythenorth> explaining how to circumvent the check 14:55:55 <zxbiohazardzx> hehe 14:56:03 * andythenorth has an idea 14:56:07 <zxbiohazardzx> apparently ppl like to walk on the edge like i do? 14:56:17 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 14:56:39 <andythenorth> the savegame already has a flag for 'newgrfs were screwed with'? 14:56:41 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: I don't know, I never need it 14:56:46 <zxbiohazardzx> in general we lack a way of hot-swapping content in/out game. only allow removal of train grfs if 0 trains are ingame 14:56:56 <zxbiohazardzx> if you have 0 trains then afaik swapping trainsets etc is safe? 14:56:59 <zxbiohazardzx> stuff like that 14:57:01 <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx: no 14:57:01 <Alberth> 0 trains is not enough 14:57:07 <andythenorth> nothing is safe 14:57:08 <zxbiohazardzx> if unused then change=allowed? 14:57:11 <andythenorth> no 14:57:13 <andythenorth> nothing is safe 14:57:15 <zxbiohazardzx> why is it not safe? 14:57:34 <andythenorth> because grfs can change their behaviour based on presence / absence / version of another grf 14:57:36 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: stuff is added in the game structures, eg the list of engines you can buy 14:57:47 <zxbiohazardzx> yes but if you dont have anything like that open 14:57:47 <andythenorth> grf A can disable if grf B is found 14:58:05 <Alberth> zxbiohazardzx: the structure exists no matter whether you have the window open 14:58:08 <andythenorth> ach 14:58:13 <andythenorth> I'm not going to argue this one 14:58:17 <andythenorth> here's what we should do: 14:58:17 <zxbiohazardzx> and why is that structure so hardcoded/solid 14:58:26 <zxbiohazardzx> and can it not be more variable/changeable 14:58:32 <andythenorth> (1) expose a 'newgrfs were changed' flag to newgrf 14:58:41 <andythenorth> (2) have all newgrfs disable themselves if changed 14:58:44 <Alberth> because all graphics etc come from newgrf, upto the base set 14:58:45 <andythenorth> end of problem 14:59:08 <andythenorth> we already have make targets for newgrfs 14:59:17 <zxbiohazardzx> the structure will always consists of a GUI element that fills with "trains" from "whatever source of trains 14:59:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: euhm, that would defeat the option, wouldn't it? 14:59:29 <andythenorth> my solution is the best so far 14:59:45 <andythenorth> Alberth: makefile would have a 'make dev' target 14:59:47 <zxbiohazardzx> structure there can be variable, load/unload of the variable list is safe as long as the variable link isnt used? 14:59:54 <zxbiohazardzx> haha 14:59:54 <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx: no 15:00:08 <zxbiohazardzx> ofc not as im just thinking out loud :P 15:00:22 <andythenorth> it's really simple, I tried what you're trying lots of times :P 15:00:30 <zxbiohazardzx> probably 15:00:31 <andythenorth> any grf can break because another grf was changed 15:00:36 <andythenorth> that's all you need to know 15:00:47 <zxbiohazardzx> your saying that its impossible to change the game after you initially started it? 15:00:50 <andythenorth> yes 15:00:52 *** Sacro is now known as Sacro_ 15:00:54 <andythenorth> nfo spec insists on it 15:00:58 <zxbiohazardzx> bad design? 15:01:01 <andythenorth> and the spec is golden and may never be changed 15:01:03 <andythenorth> yes bad design 15:01:11 <andythenorth> but the spec may never be changed 15:01:13 <zxbiohazardzx> and why can it not be changed? 15:01:18 *** Sacro_ is now known as Sacro 15:01:18 <andythenorth> because that is how it is 15:01:34 <andythenorth> because the spec says 'the spec won't be changed' :P 15:01:48 <andythenorth> it's kind of tautological :P 15:01:57 <zxbiohazardzx> lame bullshit is lame 15:02:06 <zxbiohazardzx> its code, so it can be changed 15:02:13 <zxbiohazardzx> its not desirable because of a ton of reasons 15:02:15 <zxbiohazardzx> but it can be done :P 15:02:20 <Rhamphoryncus> The only safe way to change would be saving locations of towns/industries/stations, creating a new game, and rebuilding them in the new places 15:02:28 <andythenorth> not true 15:02:30 <andythenorth> not safe 15:02:36 <andythenorth> this really isn't going to happen 15:02:41 <andythenorth> ask Rubidium :P 15:02:51 <planetmaker> that's actually the suggested way to work for scenarios... 15:02:57 <andythenorth> the 'correct' answer is to bin newgrf, but nobody dares do it 15:02:58 <zxbiohazardzx> and yes i seriously think that the inability to add newgrfs to an existing game is lacked hardcore 15:03:02 <Rhamphoryncus> Not reliable you mean. There's no guarantee they'll let you put them back where they were :) 15:03:04 <zxbiohazardzx> even when creating a scenario 15:03:17 <zxbiohazardzx> you cannot change newgrfs at ANY point unless you generate landscape 15:03:21 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: I'm thinking specifically about scenarios, yes 15:03:26 <planetmaker> It's not 100% reliable. But you change NewGRFs, so you don't want 100% the same 15:03:26 <zxbiohazardzx> and yes that is EXTREMELY lame 15:03:35 <andythenorth> Alberth: my suggestion about having newgrfs disable is deadly serious 15:04:02 <andythenorth> if some of the most popular newgrfs disable when others are changed, people will stop doing it 15:04:03 <zxbiohazardzx> andy disabling newgrfs is just as bad then? 15:04:08 <andythenorth> yes 15:04:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: oh, you mean without the option 15:04:11 <zxbiohazardzx> if i can disable it, then why can i not remove it? 15:04:37 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: the only issue coming to mind (for scenario work) is providing the same random bits to the industry placement, so it produces the same variation 15:04:45 <zxbiohazardzx> adding & removing newgrfs is something that imo should be possible during scenario building and gameplay 15:04:55 <zxbiohazardzx> and yes i do understand that that will never happen 15:04:59 <Alberth> andythenorth: I had this idea: http://devs.openttd.org/~alberth/warning.png 15:05:03 <zxbiohazardzx> but dreaming is good 15:05:12 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: that won't work. But you can save the industry locations as well as road and house locations 15:05:14 <zxbiohazardzx> sounds nice 15:05:22 <planetmaker> and try to re-generate as close-as-possible houses and industries 15:05:25 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: why won't it work? 15:05:27 <zxbiohazardzx> if you modify the files then add that red stuff 15:05:31 <planetmaker> going by their respective newgrf properties 15:05:37 <zxbiohazardzx> maybe make an option to hide it 15:05:41 <zxbiohazardzx> ugly red bad is ugly :P 15:05:46 <andythenorth> Alberth: that's just a variant on 'warning' 15:05:50 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: the generation code might change between revisions 15:05:51 <andythenorth> my suggestion is brute force 15:05:59 <zxbiohazardzx> or make it appear on load and exit 15:06:00 <Alberth> andythenorth: it's permanentin the screen 15:06:07 <planetmaker> getting the original industry props is more reliable 15:06:22 <zxbiohazardzx> Alberth how about making it show even bigger and on loading/closing of game 15:06:38 <andythenorth> if FIRS / FISH / CHIPS / UKRS2 / HEQS / OpenGFX+ / CETS / AV8 etc disable when grfs are changed 15:06:41 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: and it also would allow to switch from e.g. ECS to FIRS by matching closest 'friends' 15:06:44 <andythenorth> people will stop changing grfs 15:06:44 <Alberth> andythenorth: but it would trigger on many scenarios, causing false reports 15:06:49 <andythenorth> ? 15:06:55 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: This is scenario editing. Expose the random bits to the user, keep a list of which were used while making the scenario 15:06:58 <andythenorth> why is changing grfs on a scenario safe? 15:07:08 <zxbiohazardzx> anydy lol 15:07:18 <zxbiohazardzx> andythenorth disabling them makes stuff even worse 15:07:18 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: yes. I'm talking about changing NewGRFs in scenarios 15:07:29 <zxbiohazardzx> disabling GRFS based on other actions is bad and you know it 15:07:35 <zxbiohazardzx> i prefer alberths uber red bar 15:07:48 <andythenorth> the spec encourages me to do it 15:07:48 <zxbiohazardzx> and maybe extra confirmation before closing it :P 15:07:58 <zxbiohazardzx> fuck the spec your talking about 15:08:00 <Rubidium> changing NewGRFs is like walking on railway tracks. If you know what you're doing, and you're doing it right, then the chance of something going wrong is significantly lower than when you have no clue what you're doing. That's mostly the reason why it's forbidden for the mere 'mortals' to walk on railway tracks 15:08:04 <zxbiohazardzx> the spec is evil rom now on :P 15:08:16 <andythenorth> please can the 'newgrfs were changed' flag be exposed to newgrf 15:08:34 <zxbiohazardzx> Rubidium true to above, but the question is why is it a railway track, and not pavement 15:08:40 <zxbiohazardzx> aka why do newgrfs root so deep 15:08:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth: no. It will only make it worse 15:08:57 <andythenorth> how so? 15:09:01 <andythenorth> it will socially prevent the issue 15:09:03 <zxbiohazardzx> ^^ as i said planetmaker 15:09:11 <Rubidium> because they were never developed to be changed while running the game 15:09:21 <zxbiohazardzx> andythenorth no, grf designers may want to change it, but your changes will screw up the game? 15:09:27 <andythenorth> make it an action 7 / 9 environment var 15:09:34 <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx: I don't care 15:09:37 <andythenorth> I really don't 15:09:46 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: you're proposing to cripple FIRS if I change a newgrf? 15:09:49 <andythenorth> yes 15:09:50 <zxbiohazardzx> andythenorth Alberths suggestion was way neater 15:09:51 <andythenorth> absolutely 15:09:54 <zxbiohazardzx> he was 15:09:55 <planetmaker> andythenorth: then it should be forbidden right in OpenTTD. 15:10:03 <andythenorth> then we can't develop grfs 15:10:06 <andythenorth> end of game 15:10:09 <Rubidium> and handling *all* the states where stuff can go wrong when changing a NewGRF will be an ever going battle 15:10:12 <Rhamphoryncus> asshole :P 15:10:13 <zxbiohazardzx> he was proposing to cripple whatever he created solely if smeone edits (maybe even their own) GRF 15:10:18 <zxbiohazardzx> and imo you cant do that :P 15:10:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth: so... and if you disable the NewGRF when things change, it becomes easier to dev newgrfs? 15:10:36 <zxbiohazardzx> you can cripple FISH if you edit FISH but the rest i think is different story 15:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause> people have been known to cripple their grfs just for loading them in openttd 15:11:04 * andythenorth really doesn't see the problem 15:11:18 <zxbiohazardzx> Eddi yes and i disapprove that as much as i do with andy's suggestion 15:11:20 <andythenorth> there would be a compile-time flag on the grf to enable / disable the chechk 15:11:25 <zxbiohazardzx> its pointless and lame and selfish only 15:11:28 <V453000> what is the problem with how it works now? :o 15:11:31 <andythenorth> zxbiohazardzx: fuck that 15:11:49 <andythenorth> it's lame and selfish to have to keep handling bad newgrf bug reports from people who have changed their grfs 15:11:53 <andythenorth> it's a waste of time 15:11:58 <zxbiohazardzx> andythenorth yes and no 15:12:05 <zxbiohazardzx> yes you shouldnt handle them 15:12:08 <planetmaker> no-one cares about if authors cripple their newgrfs. It's by design and we should not worry about that 15:12:11 <zxbiohazardzx> no i think crippling your file is horrible 15:12:17 <andythenorth> ach 15:12:21 * andythenorth is going to do other stuff 15:12:22 <zxbiohazardzx> planet as i said 15:12:23 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: it's a passive-aggressive way of saying "changing newgrfs is broken by design", sabotaging the user because openttd's own developer-tools flag is not harsh enough to satisfy you 15:12:25 <planetmaker> just don't use bogus or bad stuff 15:12:28 <andythenorth> this is remarkably stupid 15:12:31 <zxbiohazardzx> he may cripply his work if i touch his work 15:12:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 15:12:47 <zxbiohazardzx> but cripple his work if i modify my own work etc is just bad estetically 15:12:51 <planetmaker> quite what Rhamphoryncus says... 15:12:53 <Eddi|zuHause> zxbiohazardzx: the problem is that you only learn that they changed their grfs after you already spent significant time on the bug report 15:13:00 <zxbiohazardzx> the red warning from Alberth is way neater solution 15:13:08 <zxbiohazardzx> Eddi yes i know 15:13:17 <zxbiohazardzx> welcome to the horrible job of bugchecking & fixing 15:13:23 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: red warning? Has anyone ever read it? 15:13:29 <zxbiohazardzx> morons and jerks report ghost issues 15:13:35 <V453000> why not just make a check if newgrfs were changed and flag the bugreports with that? 15:13:37 <zxbiohazardzx> planetmaker scroll up, see his suggestion 15:13:37 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d821847.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 15:13:39 <planetmaker> zxbiohazardzx: but it's no bug. It's abusing a developer setting 15:13:52 <Rubidium> V453000: that's what currently happens 15:14:04 <zxbiohazardzx> i know it is planetmaker 15:14:06 <Rubidium> also regarding crippling other NewGRFs... that's near trivial 15:14:16 <planetmaker> disable cross-talk 15:14:17 <Rubidium> you only need to know the other GRFIDs 15:14:34 <planetmaker> return false on any newgrf availability check 15:14:54 <Zuu> Am I just stupid, or why is it so complicated to figure out how to make a USB install drive for debian? Maby it is just easier to take the disk and put it in a old computer with a CD-drive and install debian there. 15:14:58 <planetmaker> but that's meh, too 15:15:16 <planetmaker> anyway... g2g. See you tomorrow folks 15:15:22 <zxbiohazardzx> haha cya 15:15:31 <zxbiohazardzx> but yeah i think NewGRFs are great 15:15:41 <Rubidium> there's less than a thousand used GRFIDs, so with 4 action Es you've disabled all current NewGRFs 15:15:49 <zxbiohazardzx> but if you forget 1 or want to add one then sometimes its a pain to go back to scratch 15:15:51 *** cypher [~Miranda@ip-78-45-92-151.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 15:16:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: any sane distribution lets you just put the CD image on a stick (via dd) nowadays 15:16:35 <zxbiohazardzx> specially on my "short" games where i dont intend on playing it too long then the "risk" is acceptable for me, and a bar like Alberth suggested would be sufficient 15:17:00 <zxbiohazardzx> anyway gonna get myself some foods 15:17:21 <Rhamphoryncus> Eddi|zuHause: so fix that. Have a debug info window in the help menu that shows all the version info 15:17:21 <Rhamphoryncus> step 1 of reporting bug: C&P info from debug window 15:17:27 <Zuu> Eddi|zuHause: That assums that you have linux installed on an non-virtual machine already. (which I do have, so maybe I should boot up that) 15:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: there's dd for windows 15:17:59 <Zuu> Oh, didn't knew that. 15:18:09 <Eddi|zuHause> although i don't know how that can access raw devices 15:18:44 *** zxbiohazardzx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Download IceChat at www.icechat.net] 15:19:36 <Alberth> who cares, it's the wrong OS anyway ;p 15:29:13 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:31 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 15:31:10 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@cpe-69-203-124-125.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:34:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:35:01 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #openttd 15:35:15 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:37:51 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:40:41 <oskari89> Well, should it be time for recolouring/texturing/shading something. 15:40:55 <oskari89> Let's see, some Russian hoppers :) 15:41:58 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d161-184-227-133.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 15:43:58 *** jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-222-139-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 15:44:36 *** jo2k [~Jonny@dslb-094-222-139-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 15:48:06 <andythenorth> HMM 15:48:19 <andythenorth> finescale tracks grf looks a bit interesting with CHIPS 15:53:36 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@201.47.14.252.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 15:59:50 <oskari89> andythenorth: Why all FISH ships are available from 1860's? 16:00:04 <oskari89> Isn't it a bit unrealistic? 16:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> SHHH... we don't talk about this. 16:00:29 <oskari89> :D 16:01:20 <oskari89> FISHmaster. Hmm. 16:01:22 <oskari89> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg5_mlQOsUQ 16:02:01 <andythenorth> oskari89: it's because you don't have the finished version 16:03:49 <oskari89> Okay. 16:04:45 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: do *you* have the finished version? 16:06:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Question: if providing a high res 32bpp sprite is that in addition to the traditional res 8bpp sprite, with the game choosing the right one? 16:07:32 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: no, I don't :P 16:07:41 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: XD 16:08:00 <Eddi|zuHause> baaaah... i'm so utterly annoyed by this... 16:08:18 <andythenorth> quoi? 16:08:18 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/fix_invalid_values.diff 16:08:21 <Rhamphoryncus> bah ram ewe! 16:08:24 * Rhamphoryncus explodes 16:10:15 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 16:10:55 <Eddi|zuHause> how did these lines ever pass a review? 16:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... revision 1 :p 16:22:33 <oskari89> Idea: Could wagon have a running sound? 16:22:44 <oskari89> Like in MSTS? 16:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm pretty sure they could 16:23:02 <oskari89> Or it is too resurce-consuming? 16:24:26 <oskari89> Thought of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02BncpYdJcQ 16:24:57 <andythenorth> mm 16:25:12 <andythenorth> < Rubidium> there's less than a thousand used GRFIDs, so with 4 action Es you've disabled all current NewGRFs <- this interests me 16:25:57 <andythenorth> gah 16:26:08 <andythenorth> varaction 2 has no access to ttdp vars iirc 16:26:24 <andythenorth> hmm 16:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> no, why would they? 16:26:31 <andythenorth> wouldn't work anyway 16:26:38 <andythenorth> can't disable there :P 16:26:57 * andythenorth was trying to work out if a grf can store which other grfs are present 16:27:04 <andythenorth> and then disable everything if they change 16:27:26 <andythenorth> but exposing the flag would be best 16:27:44 <Eddi|zuHause> with all due respect, it would be horrible... 16:27:56 <oskari89> Yes it would. 16:28:22 <oskari89> Nonsense-idea, which is all but just ruining things :P 16:28:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why? 16:29:04 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest306 16:29:04 *** Guest306 [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:29:04 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:29:04 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 16:29:12 <andythenorth> toddler kicked me out of the room :P 16:29:24 *** mal2__ [~mal2@port-92-206-66-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 16:29:51 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you compile your own ottd right? 16:30:04 <oskari89> Because if you are newgrf dev, such as i am and upgrade for example, Finnish Trainset in a middle of a game, there will be a mess of things :P 16:30:39 <oskari89> FIRS is good, but i will not use it if would behave like you plan :P 16:30:40 <andythenorth> so compile your own ottd, remove the 'newgrf changed' flag in the savegame 16:30:54 <andythenorth> I'm bored of this issue, it needs a brute force solution 16:31:06 <oskari89> Just ignore those reports :P 16:31:12 <andythenorth> ignore how exactly? 16:31:26 <andythenorth> hmm 16:31:31 <andythenorth> maybe I overlook something 16:32:29 <andythenorth> if I open the savegame in a text editor, where is the flag? 16:32:50 <andythenorth> I can't see it 16:33:09 <andythenorth> format looks encoded, nothing plain english or obvious hex in there 16:35:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: is this the point where i say "you're overthinking this"? 16:35:36 <andythenorth> might as well 16:35:36 <oskari89> Andythenorth: When do you plan to release FIRS 0.7.2? 16:35:50 <andythenorth> oskari89: when the compile farm has the correct version of NML 16:36:05 <oskari89> Ok. 16:36:16 <andythenorth> Ammler: when will the CF have the latest NML? 16:36:20 <andythenorth> is it a daily update? 16:36:37 <oskari89> andythenorth: Nonchanged industries, just language updates? :) 16:36:42 *** mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-232-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:36:50 <oskari89> If so, i'm happy :) 16:36:59 <andythenorth> few graphics changed 16:37:05 <andythenorth> fixed an NML bug 16:37:17 <oskari89> But no industry chain changes? 16:37:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: +0.5 to overthinking 16:37:43 <andythenorth> but how do I check that flag manually? I miss it 16:38:04 <oskari89> Hmm.. 16:39:03 <oskari89> http://marcin.ttdpatch.net/sv1codec/TTD-locations.html 16:39:07 <oskari89> Does that help? 16:39:28 <andythenorth> don't think so 16:39:34 <andythenorth> this an ottd-specific thing 16:40:37 <andythenorth> I'm looking for the easy way to ignore savegames where grfs have changed 16:42:19 <oskari89> Sounds good. 16:43:09 <Zuu> The "minimal" debian installer is 40 MB large. To large for my USB drives, so I ended up mounting the disk of my new computer in an old one to install the OS. Hopfully it will work fine. :-) 16:44:24 <Zuu> The new computer don't replace my desktop but will rather be a low-power additional linux toy. :-) 16:44:27 <SpComb> a 32MB USB drive? 16:46:11 <Zuu> My usb drives are 0.5 and 2 GB. 16:46:38 <SpComb> sounds like a 40MB installer would fit :) 16:46:43 <SpComb> or even the normal netinst CD version 16:47:23 <Zuu> Oh, my bad, I got it wrong by factor 1000 :-p 16:49:08 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest309 16:49:08 *** andythenorth_ [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:49:08 *** Guest309 [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:49:08 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth 16:49:12 <andythenorth> oskari89: if you get latest NML, you can build your own FIRS 16:49:19 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 16:49:24 <frosch123> Zuu: neither a 40GB installer nor a 500kB USB stick sound correct :) 16:49:41 <SpComb> the full DVD set is probably like 40GB 16:50:15 <Zuu> frosch123: I though 40MB was more than 0.5 GB, but that was plainly wrong :-) 16:50:15 <frosch123> hmm, maybe zuu means a live system instead of a installer 16:50:40 * oskari89 thinks that #openttd is more on topic than #tycoon 16:50:41 <frosch123> so you were off by factor 10 :) 16:50:48 <Zuu> To little coffe I guess 16:50:52 *** snack2 [~nn@dsl-prvbrasgw1-fe05dc00-37.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:50:53 <frosch123> oskari89: nothing new 16:51:15 <__ln__> oskari89: oh, what can we do here to fix that? 16:51:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:51:32 <Zuu> __ln__: I'm trying my best :-) 16:51:34 <frosch123> #tycoon is occupied by the forum off-topic section for years 16:51:37 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:51:58 <oskari89> __ln__: Nothing, it's just a stress-dumping channel :P 16:52:03 <oskari89> Or ot or so. 16:52:16 <SpComb> #tycoon, tt-forums off-topic section? 16:52:17 <SpComb> nein 16:52:35 <frosch123> i.e. those forum members you do not know, but who have 10000 posts nevertheless :p 16:52:59 <oskari89> :D 16:53:10 <oskari89> Place for veterans. 16:53:32 <SpComb> correct 16:54:16 <SpComb> the full debian dist is 52 images, it seems 16:54:24 <SpComb> CD's, I mean 16:54:57 <SpComb> that's a little over 30GB 16:55:15 <SpComb> I think you can buy USB sticks that it would fit on comfortably, although it would probably take a day to copy it there :P 16:57:07 <frosch123> some years ago the complete content of a gentoo mirror was around 40GB 16:57:20 <SpComb> source dist? 16:57:28 <frosch123> yes 16:57:37 <SpComb> hmm, I wonder if the debian release CD sets include source as well 16:57:54 <frosch123> i had no internet at home, but a 100mbit connection to a gentoo mirror 16:58:02 <frosch123> so i copied it completely onto a usb disk 16:58:07 <frosch123> and then installed offline :p 16:58:42 <frosch123> [19:02] <frosch123> i had no internet at home, but a 100mbit connection to a gentoo mirror <- + "at university" 17:00:52 <SpComb> `make world` 17:01:03 <frosch123> emerge world 17:01:26 <SpComb> right 17:01:36 * SpComb is rusty on the gentoo stuff 17:02:03 <SpComb> I once updated a gentoo server, but then it broke itself and it's been debian ever since 17:02:21 <Rhamphoryncus> yay, unreproducible performance problem x_x 17:04:24 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:04:51 <NGC3982> hilight! 17:05:04 * NGC3982 has the real life nick name rusty from time to time 17:09:45 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 17:10:02 <Rhamphoryncus> The game is bogging severely when I scroll over a town. This is a game I've been playing awhile, it's pretty much done. It was in 2012 but I cheated forward to 2100 just to see the last couple engines 17:10:29 <Rhamphoryncus> Saving and reloading in a seperate copy of openttd has no problems, neither does using the previous save and cheating forward the year again 17:11:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Attaching gdb and repeatedly interrupting for a bt is showing it spend a lot of time in GetRawSprite/ReadSprite 17:11:54 <Rhamphoryncus> But it's not a debug build so I don't have much to work with 17:11:57 *** mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-75-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 17:13:38 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:17:56 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:19:17 *** mal2__ [~mal2@port-92-206-66-91.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:20:55 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 17:21:16 *** zxbiohazardzx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 17:21:42 *** Markavian [~Markavian@j616s.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:22:21 <Rhamphoryncus> GetSpriteCacheUsage() -> 52781584 17:23:58 *** mal2__ [~mal2@port-92-206-124-223.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 17:24:18 <Rhamphoryncus> That's where my instinct is pointing but I have no idea what else to poke at 17:28:04 <Alberth> in openttd.cfg, you can poke at sprite cache sizes 17:28:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 17:28:14 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:28:19 <Alberth> o/ andy! 17:28:22 <andythenorth> o/ 17:28:37 <Rubidium> oi 17:29:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Alberth: It doesn't have a problem when I load a save. I only have the running copy of openttd exhibiting it, which isn't even a debug build 17:31:02 <andythenorth> the game does bog over cities 17:31:14 <Alberth> sprite stuff depends on what you look at, of course 17:31:22 *** mal2_ [~mal2@port-92-206-75-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:31:38 <Rhamphoryncus> This is not a little bogging. This is 0.3 fps 17:31:42 <supermop> i have one game with a large city, with meticulously timetabled commuter trains and trams 17:31:57 <supermop> game almost stops when its on screen 17:32:06 <Rhamphoryncus> hmm, maybe closer to 1 fps on average 17:32:12 <andythenorth> may or may not be related to this http://bugs.openttd.org/task/4934 17:32:14 <Rhamphoryncus> If I hit x it immediately goes back to normal 17:32:33 <andythenorth> what town newgrf? 17:32:55 <Rubidium> nah, it smells like there are too many different sprites to draw in the viewport(s), so it doesn't fit in the cache and it needs to refetch them repeatedly 17:33:04 <Rhamphoryncus> total town replacement 2.13 17:33:07 <Rhamphoryncus> err 3.13 17:33:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: so why does it work fine if I load a save? 17:33:22 <Rubidium> you might try changing the advanced setting for the maximum zoom in level (decrease it to 1x) 17:33:52 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: different town? different buildings? 17:33:58 <Rubidium> or the cache got corrupted 17:34:04 <Rhamphoryncus> I think it's corrupted 17:34:24 <Rhamphoryncus> I take the game, pause it over the town, save, fire up a second copy of openttd, load that save, runs fine 17:36:18 <Rhamphoryncus> I did upgrade all the vehicles, which I haven't yet tried in the second copy, but throwing them into a depot didn't help 17:40:22 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has joined #openttd 17:41:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24115 /trunk/src/lang/polish.txt: 17:41:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:41:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 27 changes by Kilian 17:45:36 *** zxbiohazardzx [~IceChat77@5ED05D6D.cm-7-1b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Quit: Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.] 17:46:16 *** duality [~duality@a91-156-121-158.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Quit: LÀmnar] 17:56:20 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 18:00:41 <andythenorth> xiong: does this bug persist? http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/3772 18:02:24 <xiong> andythenorth, M? 18:02:26 * xiong looks 18:03:02 <xiong> Persist after what change? 18:03:15 <xiong> Persist into RC4? 18:03:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: reducing the max zoom level does indeed fix the performance. I had no idea that's what the option was for 18:03:56 <Rubidium> it reduces the strain on the sprite cache 18:04:29 <xiong> I really need 2x zoom in; one of the best features to come around recently. 18:04:41 <xiong> I might try dispensing with 4x. 18:05:06 <Rubidium> roughly speaking increasing one zoom level requires 4 times more memory, so two does that by 16 times 18:05:07 <andythenorth> persists as in 'still exists' 18:06:02 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 18:06:58 <Rhamphoryncus> Isn't the point of a cache to keep what's actively being used? 18:07:38 <xiong> andythenorth, In my current play, no Lumber Yard has been built; so the bug is indeterminate. I can create a game with such an industry... and the chemical chain to exercise it... and I'm happy to do so. But with what conditions? Has FIRS been updated? What shall I set up? 18:08:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Zooming in to 4x runs fine 18:08:15 <Rubidium> yes, but what zoom level of a sprite is used? 18:08:43 <xiong> I thought I heard that zooming *out* required more... something. 18:08:57 <xiong> Perhaps it's demanding either way. 18:09:02 <Rhamphoryncus> I don't understand the question 18:10:12 <Rubidium> for simplicity OpenTTD assumes a few things 18:10:13 *** kaenkky [~kaenkky_@212-226-74-9-nat.elisa-mobile.fi] has joined #openttd 18:10:20 <Rubidium> 1) the sprite cache is usually big enough 18:10:39 <Rubidium> 2) you're likely too zoom in/zoom out 18:10:51 <andythenorth> xiong: nothing has changed in FIRS that would affect that bug 18:10:57 <Rubidium> so filling the sprite cache is generally a one time thing 18:11:12 <andythenorth> I thought you might be able to verify it faster than me, I don't have any games to hand 18:11:35 <andythenorth> apparently same issue exists for http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=990763#p990763 18:11:45 <xiong> Um, then would you like me to attempt to replicate it under RC4? Would you perhaps like a veryclean test case? 18:11:48 <Rhamphoryncus> Ah, so regular misses are very, very expensive 18:11:52 <Rubidium> furthermore you need to know the sprite offsets and stuff to be able to know the right size (in memory) of the sprite (they all have to have the same size (after scalling) for scaling/zooming/drawing issues) 18:12:15 <xiong> I can remove most of my NewGRFs. 18:12:38 <Rubidium> which means to even load a single sprite and make sure it adheres to the requirements you need to load the other sprites as well 18:12:54 <Rubidium> so why not cache them then? 18:13:01 * xiong looks 18:13:08 <andythenorth> xiong: RC4 would be good 18:13:10 <Rubidium> especially as you can have all zoom levels of a sprite visible at the same time! 18:13:14 <andythenorth> newgrf interaction is...unlikely 18:13:24 <Rhamphoryncus> Is that the entire newgrf at once? Or a smaller number of related sprites? 18:13:36 <Rubidium> and that's what my question regarding the 'used zoom level' of a sprite was about 18:13:45 <xiong> I've never had any Paper Mill issue I can recall. But it's easy enough to test that, as well. 18:14:18 <xiong> Let me make some coffee, andythenorth. I do have chores to do today but I'll see if I can't crank out something with the weird stuff isolated. 18:14:24 <andythenorth> it's most likely to be an issue with all secondary industry 18:14:37 <andythenorth> they have shared production code 18:14:41 <xiong> Dunno. Never seen an issue elsewhere. 18:14:45 <andythenorth> but might also just be a few isolated cases 18:15:11 <andythenorth> in both reports, chemicals is involved, but cargos should be a black box to the code 18:15:42 <oskari89> Andythenorth: Is there any tractor on your HEQS set? 18:15:48 <andythenorth> yes 18:16:23 <xiong> I seem to recall seeing something... somewhere... suggesting that not all FIRS cargoes are alike. That, for instance, in the case of the Lumber Yard, lumber is the main input and chemicals secondary; so while chem gives a boost, it's not expected to produce output on its own, despite the window saying different. 18:16:23 <oskari89> Can Finnish Trainset have one on Snps wagon? :) 18:16:28 <andythenorth> is it GPL? 18:16:38 <oskari89> Yes. 18:16:44 <andythenorth> go ahead :) 18:16:49 <oskari89> Thanks :) 18:16:53 <xiong> This is one reason I was hesitant to file a bug on this; I wasn't sure what was wrong: behavior or documentation. 18:16:59 <andythenorth> xiong: all cargos should result in output 18:17:17 <andythenorth> the codebase was significantly rewritten, and this is likely introduced by that 18:17:27 <xiong> I'm not arguing, andythenorth; I only note that "should" is a loaded word. 18:17:39 <oskari89> andythenorth: Graphics with them are for FIRS farm equipment refit ;) 18:17:45 <Rhamphoryncus> s/should/are supposed to/ 18:17:45 <xiong> I'll certainly be happy to crank out a solid test case. 18:17:50 <andythenorth> thanks 18:17:52 <oskari89> Hauling tractors :) 18:17:59 <andythenorth> oskari89: you've got the HEQS repo checked out? 18:18:00 <xiong> No problem. But coffee.... 18:18:09 <oskari89> Not yet. 18:18:20 <andythenorth> easiest way 18:18:22 <oskari89> You got link there? 18:18:32 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/heqs/repository 18:18:38 <oskari89> Thanks :) 18:18:40 <andythenorth> or you can browse online 18:18:53 <andythenorth> the tractors are a little oversized for most train sets :P 18:18:53 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d99-199-14-2.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 18:18:57 <andythenorth> but nvm 18:19:41 *** Devedse__ [~Devedse@cable-125-94.zeelandnet.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:20:28 <andythenorth> FIRS probably has a bug where some cargo is discarded under certain conditions. Likely in this file: 18:20:28 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/entry/sprites/nml/templates/produce_secondary.pnml 18:20:40 <andythenorth> but I can't read that code, so I can't check by inspection :P 18:21:07 <oskari89> Hmm, the front wheels should be more front on the third last row :P 18:21:21 <oskari89> Otherwise good tractor. 18:21:41 <andythenorth> it's an early HEQS sprite 18:21:46 <andythenorth> they're not the best :P 18:22:34 <oskari89> Is there something newer than that?` 18:22:54 <andythenorth> no 18:23:06 <andythenorth> ah the 3rd last row - that's an articulated tractor that I never finished :P 18:23:27 *** KouDy [~KouDy@175.137.102.249] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 18:23:41 <oskari89> Okay.. 18:24:02 <oskari89> I'll modify it a little bit :) 18:25:07 <oskari89> Front axle 3 px forward, that's more like it :) 18:25:49 <oskari89> Oh, but its an.... combine harvester? :D 18:27:29 <Rhamphoryncus> "How are we getting to work on the oil rig?" "We're going to fly, then catch a ride on a combine harvester." 18:28:21 <telanus> Quick Question:STR_SORT_BY_RANGE The Range means distance? I'm translating it too Afrikaans and not sure what Afrikaans word to use, as we use different word for different meaning 18:29:01 <telanus> And don't want to use the wrong word in OpenTTD 18:29:56 <Rhamphoryncus> telanus: that's for aircraft and means how far they can go on one tank of fuel. I don't believe it's currently used 18:30:07 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: it's used with the new av8 18:30:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Rather, the text is used, but there's no functionality behind it 18:30:12 <Rhamphoryncus> oh nevermind XD 18:30:27 <Rhamphoryncus> Apparently my av8 just isn't new enough 18:30:31 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has joined #openttd 18:31:42 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 18:34:05 <Rhamphoryncus> telanus: specifically noun #7 here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/range 18:34:46 <andythenorth> http://www.wnif.co.uk/articles/344/1/Deutz-Fahr-AgroXXL-offers-600hp-and-eight-wheel-drive/Page1.html 18:34:49 <andythenorth> Agro XXL 18:39:52 <telanus> Rhamphoryncus: Thanx :D 18:40:03 <Rhamphoryncus> telanus: glad to help :) 18:42:47 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-178-000-005-077.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:47:09 <oskari89> andythenorth: Should i turn off the headlights of tractor when it's on wagon, or it's battery will run dry ;) 18:51:26 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop] 18:53:28 <andythenorth> sounds wise 18:54:30 <oskari89> Dunnit :) 18:56:57 *** KritiK [~Maxim@93-80-224-134.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 18:57:11 *** Firartix [~artixds@222.140.0.93.rev.sfr.net] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 19:01:15 *** kkb110_ [~kkb110@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-02.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd 19:06:24 * Rhamphoryncus is looking at NUTS 19:06:28 * Rhamphoryncus is now afraid of V453000 19:08:20 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:09:02 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 19:09:49 *** roadt [~roadt@60.168.84.0] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:13:19 * andythenorth ponders installing smalltalk 19:13:30 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 19:13:48 * telanus is fixing very bad translation errorsO:-) 19:16:26 <V453000> Rhamphoryncus: nothing to be afraid of :) 19:16:45 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: you are completely batshit insane. I respect that ;) 19:17:01 <V453000> :D I take that as a compliment, thanks 19:17:15 <Rhamphoryncus> hehe 19:17:55 <Rhamphoryncus> The wide disparity in stats is exactly what I've been looking for 19:18:43 <V453000> :) awesome 19:19:00 <V453000> that is the core idea of the set 19:19:12 <Rhamphoryncus> The uhh.. theme choice makes me cringe ;) 19:19:58 <V453000> I wrote an article about it a long time ago ... not all info fits now, but the general ideas remain http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2011/10/18/nuts-revolution-among-train-sets/ 19:20:39 <V453000> nuts also has a readme ... which is actually outdated as well but it mentions some points too :) 19:21:57 *** tegro [~undefined@78-105-226-68.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:22:25 <tegro> I'm trying to download OpenTTD I keep getting a 404. 19:22:29 <tegro> Is there a mirror available? 19:23:05 <Rubidium> I guess it's the actual mirror giving you the 404 19:23:12 <Eddi|zuHause> tegro: <country-code>.binaries.openttd.org 19:24:13 <tegro> Eddi|zuHause: Perfect. :D Thanks. Where is that linked to on the homepage? I couldn't find it. 19:24:20 <tegro> Rubidium: I guess so too : ) 19:24:48 <Rubidium> do you actually get a 404 or some other error? 19:24:57 <Rubidium> and what do you try to download exactly? 19:25:01 *** Strid_ [~Strid@c-81c4e455.04-372-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:25:23 *** Strid_ [~Strid@c-81c4e455.04-372-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 19:25:27 <tegro> Rubidium: I click Download Stable, I select Windows64 and click the installer link. 19:25:32 <Rubidium> V453000: I would've chosen different names for the trains, e.g. Chestnut or Almond 19:26:07 <tegro> Rubidium: Then it times out and I get a 503. 19:26:16 <tegro> It's trying to connect to gb.binaries.openttd.org 19:26:53 <V453000> meh :) 19:27:21 <Rubidium> tegro: try again 19:27:56 <tegro> Rubidium: It now appears to be working. :) 19:27:57 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: Skimmed over it. I agree with it all except wagon length. Even then I understand the reason for it. 19:28:18 <Rubidium> removed the GB mirror from the balancer 19:28:58 <V453000> well the wagons are still visually 4/8 or 8/8 19:29:30 <Eddi|zuHause> tegro: btw. the mirrors are listed on the links section of the homepage 19:29:35 *** Someus [~am@212.93.100.4] has joined #openttd 19:29:38 <Someus> Hi 19:29:45 <Someus> Want to play online with me? 19:30:56 <Someus> I can`t make my for trains to deliver coal in right way 19:31:01 <Someus> four trains 19:31:15 <Someus> That signal thing 19:33:39 <Wolf01> 'night all 19:33:43 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host139-62-dynamic.252-95-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 19:36:16 *** Someus [~am@212.93.100.4] has quit [] 19:39:40 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:47:30 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has joined #openttd 19:54:20 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: no autorefit :O 19:57:28 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-108-131.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 20:02:34 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-111-15.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:03:35 <V453000> no, retarded featuer 20:03:48 <V453000> only takes away all kind of why refit is interesting 20:08:15 <Rhamphoryncus> Depots are retarded :P 20:08:20 <Rhamphoryncus> I love autorefit 20:09:54 <V453000> well ... if you do a refit game, it is interesting by being specific and building a refit station is a very interesting task. While if you do it with autorefit, it is totally the same as building an ordinary station 20:10:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Not everybody plays the same way you do ;) 20:11:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Refit stations would be interesting.. if they actually existed rather than being depots 20:11:47 <V453000> http://blog.openttdcoop.org/2012/02/16/advanced-building-revue-11-refit-stations/ 20:12:03 <V453000> it can be a lot smaller of course 20:12:06 <oskari89> andythenorth: I have a FIRS cargo request :) 20:12:09 <oskari89> Peat :) 20:12:23 <V453000> but it is a category of building, which is just simply killed with autorefit 20:12:26 <V453000> which I refuse 20:12:40 <oskari89> It can be shipped to power station, instead of coal. 20:12:48 <FLHerne> Is autorefit optional? 20:13:14 <V453000> yes, the newgrf must allow it FLHerne 20:13:36 <Rhamphoryncus> It'd be easy to make as a newgrf config option 20:13:57 <Rhamphoryncus> What about boats? Do you refuse to use them? ;) 20:14:14 <V453000> yes 20:14:21 <V453000> nothing interesting in doing so 20:14:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Autorefit being a very different building style 20:15:03 <V453000> not quite, what exactly is different? 20:15:21 <V453000> autorefit is automatizing normal stations to do something else, but you build the same as normally 20:15:23 <Rhamphoryncus> Very different from your refit station 20:15:36 <V453000> how is it different from a normal station 20:15:47 <Rhamphoryncus> Naw, you have to actually use one station, unlike normal openttdcoop 20:15:59 <V453000> ? 20:16:28 *** Poorunfortunatesouls [5199cdb7@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 20:16:32 <Rhamphoryncus> .. the whole reason you object to it? It doesn't need a depot in the middle of every platform? 20:16:51 <V453000> it doesnt matter of what the refit station consists 20:17:17 <V453000> My problem is that an autorefit station is a totally ordinary station without anything specific 20:17:20 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable085.125-161-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 20:17:22 <drac_boy> hi 20:17:31 <Rhamphoryncus> So? Try to find a way to fix that 20:17:43 <V453000> not use autorefit 20:17:45 <V453000> only way 20:18:02 <V453000> the point of the feature is exactly that 20:18:13 <Rhamphoryncus> urgh 20:18:34 <Rhamphoryncus> So what is the license on NUTS? 20:18:54 <V453000> all rights reserverd of course 20:18:59 <Rhamphoryncus> blah 20:19:12 <Rhamphoryncus> Infighting is such fun 20:19:16 <V453000> yes exactly, no messing with and adding stupid features 20:19:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't actually forbid that 20:20:06 <drac_boy> eddi at least he can make sure it isn't included in the offical release of his own tho no? 20:20:11 <V453000> well the license forbids pretty much anything doesnt it 20:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you always have the right to reverse-engineer and modify a program "for compatibility" 20:20:32 <andythenorth> today appears to be a day of strong opinions :P 20:20:40 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: indeed 20:20:40 <Eddi|zuHause> as long as you have a license 20:20:52 <andythenorth> V453000: it's ok, when I get my way any of my grfs will disable yours anyway :P 20:21:00 <andythenorth> I have upgraded my plan 20:21:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can pass along all information needed to make the modifications to all other people with a valid license 20:21:19 <andythenorth> I'm aiming to now persuade grf authors to include a feature in their grfs 20:21:25 <andythenorth> that will disable all grfs used 20:21:34 <andythenorth> thereby solving all problems with newgrf 20:21:36 <andythenorth> no bug reports 20:21:36 <V453000> lol 20:21:41 <andythenorth> no feature requests 20:21:55 <andythenorth> it's like rm * 20:22:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth really needs to get some sleep 20:22:08 <andythenorth> except we can still say 'hundreds of newgrfs made by the community' 20:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> a whole week or so 20:22:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: + 0.7999 20:22:38 <andythenorth> and also I stopped taking codeine 20:22:41 <Prof_Frink> Newgrfs are evil anyway. We should all play TTD as Lord Chris intended. 20:22:42 <andythenorth> for the obvious reasons :P 20:23:14 <andythenorth> where's monsieur bird? 20:23:15 <V453000> what is the point of this discussion anyway? Rhamphoryncus just refuses to accept that I have good reasons why not to include auto-refit and even considers to add it to my set knowing that I disagree? That is royally rude even if the license allowed it. 20:23:15 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: you mean without Win2k compatibility? 20:23:25 <andythenorth> monsieur stops me saying silly things 20:23:28 <drac_boy> Prof_Frink heh well I wouldn't mind that considering its easy to exchange the sprites in the original grf to get a non-uk presence anyway :) 20:23:32 <Rhamphoryncus> V453000: no, that's the entire POINT of having an open source license 20:23:39 <drac_boy> eg replace the pannier 0-6-0T with a normal slim tank black 0-6-0T 20:23:41 <Prof_Frink> drac_boy: Blasphemy! 20:24:04 <V453000> Rhamphoryncus: make your own set? 20:24:05 <drac_boy> Prof_Frink well I already have a heavily modified ttd grf mind you 20:24:29 <Rhamphoryncus> I've pondered that. It'll end up remarkably similar in stats to yours :/ 20:24:34 <Rhamphoryncus> (same goals) 20:24:44 <V453000> too bad 20:24:50 <Prof_Frink> Burn the heretic! 20:24:56 <Rhamphoryncus> Lots of duplicated effort, unfortunately 20:25:14 <V453000> nah you will have the almighty autorefit 20:26:26 * telanus think it's enough translating for one evening, 20 new translations and about the same if not more fixed 20:26:48 * NGC3982 sets up a network game just so he can play singelplayer with lots and lots of monitors. 20:27:10 <NGC3982> the game gets fantasticly intricate with one monitor for the <what i see>, and one for the statistics and map. 20:28:14 <drac_boy> heh 20:28:31 *** Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:28:33 <drac_boy> telanus heh I still have to sort out some translatings here .. still have a few difficult words left :-s 20:30:27 <drac_boy> how many languages you working with telanus? 20:30:33 <drac_boy> me just only one at least :) 20:30:38 <telanus> Yip know that feeling, especially if there is 5 different meanings for the same word, and when translated it can be up to 12 different words, depending on what meant 20:30:51 <telanus> I'm only busy with one ATM 20:31:26 <Rhamphoryncus> I only know english, and even that I argue with people about 20:31:58 <telanus> As I only know Afrikaans and English 20:31:58 *** tegro [~undefined@78-105-226-68.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:32:13 *** Chris_Booth[ph] [~chrisboot@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 20:32:25 <drac_boy> afrikaans.... africa or I'm wrong? 20:32:28 *** tegro [~undefined@78-105-226-68.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:32:48 <frosch123> drac_boy: netherlands 20:33:00 <telanus> yip: South Africa 20:33:25 <Alberth> good night all 20:33:28 <telanus> Netherlands = Dutch If I remember correctly 20:33:39 <telanus> Night Albetth 20:33:43 <Alberth> telanus: correct 20:33:47 <drac_boy> bye Alberth 20:33:55 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:33:59 <frosch123> yeah, but aren't africaan and dutch almost the same? 20:34:08 <drac_boy> telanus ... deutsch? :) 20:34:17 <telanus> They are closely related 20:34:40 <telanus> Deutsch = German 20:34:55 <drac_boy> yeah thats what I'm working with btw 20:35:04 <drac_boy> lot of things were easy to figure out, a few I had to ask here about 20:35:07 *** Arafangion [~Arafangio@220-244-108-23.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:35:20 <telanus> Afrikaans was once called kitchen dutch 20:35:20 <drac_boy> but theres a few more thats a bit stumping .. some train related and some not 20:35:43 <__ln__> so if i write dutch by mixing german + english while spelling the words in a funny way, what should i do more to get afrikaans? 20:36:05 <andythenorth> can anyone build FIRS 0.7.2 and tell me the md5 sum? 20:36:12 <andythenorth> it needs the latest NML 20:38:22 <frosch123> grfid -m firs.grf 20:38:25 <frosch123> 9d9fe152fbfab57313a7e88509015518 20:38:56 <telanus> __ln__: a lot more is needed, like we use double negatives, (like I didn't do it would be ek het dit nie gedoen nie) 20:39:10 <andythenorth> hmm 20:39:13 <andythenorth> doesn't match 20:39:15 <andythenorth> I have 9d9fe152fbfab57313a7e88509015518 20:39:16 <andythenorth> :( 20:39:20 <andythenorth> oops 20:39:26 <andythenorth> I have fbc1ce3202e6914c9312bf32384588b6 20:39:27 <andythenorth> :) 20:39:56 <andythenorth> compile farm has 857e59929e676a933bf5fd91f23ded31 20:41:06 <frosch123> [22:43] <andythenorth> I have fbc1ce3202e6914c9312bf32384588b6 <- that is the md5sum of the whole file 20:41:11 <frosch123> you should use grfid -m 20:42:12 <andythenorth> where / how? 20:42:15 <andythenorth> :o 20:42:26 <frosch123> in the grfcodec package :) 20:42:51 <frosch123> grf container 2 files compute the md5sum only for the data part, not for the sprite part 20:43:15 <frosch123> that way you can strip 32bpp or zoom sprites from a grf without changing the md5sum 20:43:52 <frosch123> so, what md5sum does the devzone generate? 20:43:59 <frosch123> maybe for the whole bundle? :p 20:47:15 <andythenorth> so my md5 matches yours 20:47:28 <andythenorth> so I can probably release 20:54:01 <frosch123> night 20:54:04 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f5921.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:54:39 <NGC3982> when was tractive effort introduced? 20:56:32 <Terkhen> for trains? years ago, along with realistic acceleration 20:57:43 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:58:07 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 20:59:39 <andythenorth> bye 21:00:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 21:01:59 <NGC3982> Terkhen: i see. 21:02:19 <NGC3982> for some reason, i have never seen it. 21:03:35 *** telanus [~Barney_Er@196-215-68-135.dynamic.isadsl.co.za] has left #openttd [] 21:04:15 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: it's only shown when realistic acceleration is enabled 21:05:19 <NGC3982> ah, that explains it. 21:17:52 <Terkhen> good night 21:19:08 <NGC3982> Terkhen: night 21:20:14 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [] 21:48:41 *** TGYoshi [~TGYoshi@86.81.146.146] has quit [Quit: Popidopidopido] 21:49:07 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has joined #openttd 22:00:31 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 22:01:25 *** Chris_Booth [~chatzilla@host81-129-125-202.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 12.0/20120411064248]] 22:04:41 *** mal2__ [~mal2@port-92-206-124-223.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:04:44 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-49-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:05:26 *** TWerkhoven[l] [~twerkhove@cpc3-linl7-2-0-cust522.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:05:43 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:06:52 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-41-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 22:13:48 *** mal2__ [~mal2@port-92-206-83-72.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 22:14:12 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-41-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Quit: c('~' )o] 22:15:35 *** tokai [~tokai@port-92-195-41-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #openttd 22:15:38 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 22:19:27 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 22:23:19 *** Chrill [~chrischri@c83-253-89-11.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 22:24:40 <drac_boy> hmm what would be a 'marketplace' in german 22:25:41 <NGC3982> marktplatz? 22:26:18 <drac_boy> oh...should had seen that one coming 22:26:23 <drac_boy> thanks 22:27:09 <NGC3982> im not really sure 22:27:21 <NGC3982> that is just the litteral translation of market and place. 22:27:22 <NGC3982> :) 22:28:18 <drac_boy> heh I'll start with it for now tho :) 22:32:40 <NGC3982> http://i.imgur.com/mVnx0.png 22:32:47 <NGC3982> what am i missing here? :) 22:35:08 <drac_boy> full != 50 22:35:10 <drac_boy> :p 22:35:43 <NGC3982> if i set it to load normally it just takes the amount in the station and leaves 22:36:45 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 22:36:59 *** FLHerne [~francis_h@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 22:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. that is what that means 22:37:29 <NGC3982> can i make it wait until 50% is loaded? 22:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no 22:37:46 <NGC3982> ah, i see. 22:37:58 <Eddi|zuHause> you can only make it go a small loop if it's not 50% 22:38:15 <Eddi|zuHause> to get back to the same station 22:38:30 <NGC3982> ok 22:39:10 <Eddi|zuHause> in other notes: "exactly" 50% will almost never happen 22:39:51 <NGC3982> i see. well, better make more trains instead :) 22:39:52 <NGC3982> thank you. 22:41:13 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.26.172] has quit [Quit: DANGER sla.ro is OFFLINE DANGER] 22:45:13 *** perk11 [~perk11@46.242.11.118] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:57:01 <drac_boy> hmm just realized something 22:57:27 <drac_boy> many decent laptops are oem from uniwill which turns out to be a branch of ECS ... makes me wondering if its even trusty or not 23:03:06 <drac_boy> oh well maybe rather not 23:03:21 *** KingJ [~KingJ-OFT@95.154.197.17] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:08:26 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:09:08 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 23:13:12 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:16:12 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B305.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:24:24 *** peteris [~peteris@78.84.100.24] has quit [Quit: Ex-Chat] 23:27:38 <Zuu> NGC3982: The AI AIAI uses the conditional order trick to make vehicles load at least some cargo before departuring to the destination. It causes the vehicles to drive around in a loop at the source station untill they get some cargo. 23:29:14 <drac_boy> heh sounds like the old AI as usual, not even knowing how to think :) 23:29:26 <Zuu> CluelessPlus toggles full load for town to town connections on and off under certain conditions. Eg. if all vehicles end up loading at one end so that the rating drops under some limit at the other side. Though, this is more of a workaround to the problem that it buys to large aircrafts for some connections. 23:33:51 * drac_boy just never had wanted to bother with the AI in any sort of ways :/ 23:34:22 *** oskari89 [~oskari89@213-186-253-165.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 23:46:48 <Zuu> I never used to play with AIs until I wrote one. 23:53:37 *** LordPixaII [~pixa@79-68-108-131.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 23:53:38 *** Pixa [~pixa@79-68-108-131.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:58:10 *** Biolunar [~mahdi@blfd-5d821847.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us]