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00:04:44 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 00:05:45 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:11:49 <Pikka> well 00:11:52 <Pikka> shamefur dispray 00:13:02 <drac_boy> hi snail the french engineer :) 00:13:13 <Snail> good evening :) 00:13:13 <drac_boy> or do they call it 'driver'? I never remember :P 00:13:33 <Snail> driver? I don't even own a car :p 00:16:02 <drac_boy> no I mean in some places its called 'driver' instead of 'engineer' 00:16:13 <drac_boy> I always forget which one is which place 00:16:16 <Snail> really? 00:16:20 <Snail> never heard of that 00:18:02 <drac_boy> how're you anyway? 00:18:10 <Kitty> what things make a town grow ? 00:18:20 <Snail> I'm fine 00:18:23 <Kitty> and can I make a town grow faster by providing transport to it ? 00:18:30 <Snail> finally it's the weekend :) 00:18:30 <Snail> a 00:18:30 <Snail> nd 00:18:31 <Snail> y 00:18:31 <Snail> ou 00:18:41 <Snail> and you? (sorry, strange computer behavior) 00:21:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Kitty: yes. 00:21:33 <drac_boy> doing ok, had a bit big supper for myself tho :) 00:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Kitty: any transport will do, doesn't have to be a particular cargo 00:22:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Kitty: unless you're in desert or snow 00:22:35 <FLHerne> Towns grow faster if they have more than 5 stations, don't they? 00:22:44 <Pikka> no 00:22:45 * FLHerne finds that one quite annoying 00:22:50 <glx> a passenger network inside the town is good 00:22:51 <Pikka> they grow faster for each station up to 5 00:23:05 <FLHerne> Pikka: That sounds much saner :-) 00:25:47 * FLHerne should probably shut up and sleep now 00:29:09 <Kitty> aah 00:29:12 <Kitty> I have 2 stations 00:29:49 <Kitty> well, 5, but 4 of them are one station conceptually 00:36:10 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:36:40 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 00:37:02 <drac_boy> what doing now anyway snail? 00:39:08 * peter1138 grumbles at special cases 00:41:17 <Snail> another NG railcar... this one is a modern one 00:41:41 <drac_boy> nice :p 00:46:13 <Kitty> narrow gauge? Am guessing this isn't in openttd ? 00:50:08 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:50:37 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 00:51:02 <Snail> yes narrow gauge is in openttd :p 00:51:16 <Snail> I'm actually building a set of all trains like that 00:51:40 <drac_boy> snail funny thing....so is me 00:51:44 <drac_boy> I don't call it narrow tho 00:51:48 <drac_boy> :) 00:52:33 <Snail> guys, has any work done to make it possible to flip articulated trains? 00:52:57 <Snail> some of my MUs are coded as articulated vehicles, so that they can carry both pax and mail 00:53:14 <Snail> but they visually look like a one-piece unit (the 2nd part is coded as invisible) 00:53:25 <Snail> so it would be nice if the graphics could still flip... 00:53:39 <drac_boy> good question...I could use the same answer too 00:54:02 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 00:54:17 <drac_boy> espcially since I actually need to keep some part-cargo/part-passenger emus 00:54:29 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 00:55:21 <Snail> right, and some of my MUs are asymmetrical, can do push-pull (i.e. travel in reverse) but they can't flip in depots. So players might think this is weird 00:56:25 <Pikka> snail: I have never encountered a situation where the player flipping vehicles manually is desirable :) 00:56:28 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [] 00:56:46 <Pikka> personally, I just make it so they can't flip anything 00:57:44 <planetmaker> :-) 00:58:02 <planetmaker> +1 @ pikka 00:58:37 <Snail> :p 00:59:11 <Snail> why? there are some asymmetrical MUs that could run on both directions, and players might want to flip them just to give them a different look 00:59:30 <Snail> or tank steamers that could run cab-forward... 00:59:42 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 00:59:53 <Pikka> do it in the grf, then 01:00:01 <V453000> or GEC91 from UKRS which is terribly broken by Shunting due to not being able to flip 01:00:13 <drac_boy> heh snail....did I tell you that paris for some time had tank hauled commuter trains...and the engines always went in both directions equally a lot 01:00:18 <drac_boy> ;) 01:00:49 <drac_boy> anyway I'm going for a bit...have fun talking with others snail :p 01:01:06 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 01:01:11 <Pikka> the tank engines in UKRS2 run tender first, but I flip them in the grf rather than relying on the player knowing that flipping this loco might be fun 01:01:24 <planetmaker> he :D 01:01:40 <peter1138> i blame bjarni 01:01:46 <Pikka> (I also decided in UKRS2 that fake-articulates to carry multiple cargos is a bad idea, but each to their own ;)) 01:01:47 <Snail> Pikka: yes I already do that in the grf (meaning that they just drive in reverse when they hit the end of the track) 01:02:11 <Snail> but the players might still want to add more randomness themselves 01:02:17 <Snail> Pikka 01:02:17 <Snail> ; 01:02:18 <Pikka> I blame peter1138 01:02:23 <V453000> are you aware that GEC91 runs reversed if it doesnt have a) reversed counterpart on the train end, b) express wagons, or c) network without terminus stations ? 01:02:30 <Snail> Pikka: why that? I thought there were some mixed pax/mail coaches in the UK 01:02:37 <Pikka> are you talking about UKRS1, V453000? 01:02:42 <V453000> of course 01:02:57 <V453000> would have said 2 otherwise :> 01:03:12 <Pikka> then I may or may not be aware of that, but I don't care. 01:03:24 <peter1138> old & unsupported innit 01:03:26 <V453000> well thats not too nice :( 01:03:35 <Supercheese> No love for subways-as-roadtypes :( 01:03:45 <peter1138> none at all 01:03:50 <peter1138> don't even think about it 01:03:50 <Supercheese> sad panda 01:03:55 <V453000> either way, I solve it all the way that I have automatic reversing at end of consist, but the player is able to flip any train as he likes 01:04:22 <Pikka> it's only a graphical thing anyway V453000, and not even an "error" as such 01:04:37 <V453000> no but for GEC91 it is like majorly graphical thing 01:05:09 <peter1138> fix it yourself? 01:05:22 <planetmaker> Supercheese, they don't need special treatment as road or rail type. They only need a different map array 01:05:38 <Supercheese> "only" 01:05:38 <planetmaker> and different gui to access that :D 01:05:45 <planetmaker> yes. "only" ;-) 01:06:02 <V453000> since when is UKRS under open license peter1138 ? 01:06:20 <Supercheese> Long-term certainly, I was thinking more of an improved interim implementation, but I definitely understand the disagreement 01:06:59 <Supercheese> and I coded a hac- I mean, grf that works well enough for my playstyle :P 01:07:19 <V453000> also, when I use UKRS, I flip one GEC91 in old revision - you can clone it afterwards ... so the issue doesnt exactly touch me 01:07:50 <peter1138> what is the problem anyway? 01:08:03 <V453000> clearly directional train facing the wrong end? 01:08:13 <peter1138> slab-first? 01:08:16 <V453000> yes 01:08:19 <peter1138> for pax? 01:08:23 <V453000> I guess slab means the rear of the train 01:08:24 <Pikka> you do know it has a cab in both ends, right V453000? 01:08:37 <peter1138> or for freight? 01:08:40 <V453000> for freight 01:08:43 <peter1138> ok 01:08:46 <peter1138> you do know 01:08:53 <peter1138> that that is how they were designed to run 01:08:56 <V453000> even if there is cab in the rear, it looks beyond ugly 01:09:13 <V453000> sure, then they should honestly have attach restrictions to pax only 01:09:22 <peter1138> it's not pax only 01:09:52 <V453000> but as ukrs has only 2 other 200+kmh freight trains, while the GEC91 is clearly best, it tends to be an issue 01:10:08 <Pikka> maybe you should consider UKRS2? :) 01:10:44 <V453000> that is nice but UKRS is still better in some aspects and has its magic still 01:11:36 <peter1138> UKRS has nice features 01:11:44 <V453000> I use nuts 99% of my games so I dont care much, but if you want any suggestion, fixing GEC91 would be great ;) 01:11:46 <peter1138> like making the class 91 run slab-end first with freight 01:11:58 <V453000> yes that is an amazing feature peter 01:12:07 <peter1138> seriously, it's mean to do that 01:12:07 <V453000> totally not ugly 01:12:17 <Pikka> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yp8ZD76BKo 01:12:33 <V453000> how is a real train related to the game? :d 01:12:50 <peter1138> well it's a class 91 for a start 01:12:52 <peter1138> that's pretty related 01:12:54 <Pikka> btw, in UKRS2 the 91 is limited to passenger trains or freightliners only. flips with freightliners, not with passenger trains :) 01:12:56 <V453000> no thats not 01:13:26 <peter1138> how is a in-game representation of a real engine related to a real engine? well now 01:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> how is a computer game related to a real world game? 01:13:59 <V453000> well I think this is getting to a point of really strange realism :) but whatever 01:14:06 <peter1138> it's ukrs 01:14:27 <peter1138> maybe you want NUTS 01:14:34 <Pikka> NURKS! 01:14:42 <peter1138> norks! 01:14:48 <Pikka> I knew you were going to say that 01:15:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what's that? 01:15:16 <peter1138> Top speed Design: 140 mph (225 km/h) 01:15:16 <peter1138> Service: 125 mph (201 km/h) 01:15:16 <peter1138> Blunt-end first: 110 mph (177 km/h) 01:15:23 <peter1138> see, it's even in the real specs 01:15:27 <peter1138> blunt end, not slab 01:15:39 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 01:16:04 <peter1138> so yeah, don't fix what isn't broken eh 01:16:13 <V453000> yeah it should even reduce speed when reversed :D 01:16:17 <V453000> realism ftw 01:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> is that because of the higher wind resistance? 01:16:21 <V453000> good night, this leads nowhere 01:16:23 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yes 01:16:39 <Eddi|zuHause> still, what's a norks? 01:16:45 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, norks 01:16:52 <Pikka> funbags 01:16:58 <Pikka> bazongas 01:17:01 <peter1138> melons 01:17:13 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, these 01:17:34 <Eddi|zuHause> they somehow don't teach us this stuff in school... 01:18:02 <Wolf01> 'night 01:18:05 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@0001288e.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 01:18:09 <Pikka> V453000, in UKRS2 the 91 even defaults to pointy-end-first on freight, so if you have no terminuses you won't see it run backwards 01:18:29 <peter1138> terminuseseseseseseses 01:18:34 <Pikka> yes 01:18:35 <Pikka> those 01:18:41 <peter1138> terminators 01:18:50 <Eddi|zuHause> terminÌsse... 01:18:53 <Supercheese> Termini 01:18:56 <Eddi|zuHause> those should be in NUTS :p 01:18:56 <Pikka> termites 01:19:00 <Supercheese> Hmm, where's the accent key... 01:19:01 <peter1138> Pikka, it doesn't matter, you can't argue with V453000 01:19:09 <Pikka> yes I can! 01:19:12 <Supercheese> Errr, macron rather 01:19:24 <peter1138> i mean, it's your set, and you deliberately made it do that, and everything 01:19:29 <peter1138> but no, it's obviously broken 01:19:49 <Eddi|zuHause> (with "NÌsse" being the german term for "nuts" [as in the things that squirrels collect]) 01:19:56 <peter1138> arguing with V453000 results in a "i'm right stfu" from him :p 01:20:10 <peter1138> (paraphrased) 01:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> he should have named his set after Belugas :p 01:20:51 <peter1138> anyone coded a roadtype yet? 01:20:59 <Pikka> just the one? 01:21:06 <peter1138> roadtype set then 01:21:15 <Pikka> no, because there's no spec 01:21:32 <peter1138> make it up 01:21:34 <peter1138> make up a spec 01:21:38 <peter1138> sneak it into the wiki 01:21:39 <Pikka> I already did! 01:21:43 <Eddi|zuHause> plenty of tram replacement sets out there, just add a roadlabel :) 01:21:51 <peter1138> then ask us why it's not implemented yet 01:21:58 <Pikka> I already did! 01:22:10 <peter1138> (and if you're mb make sure it won't work anyway) 01:22:24 <Pikka> I thought that's what we've been talking about for the last however many hours :) 01:22:40 <peter1138> what randomaction2s? 01:22:59 <Pikka> nein 01:23:19 <Pikka> http://users.tt-forums.net/pikka/wiki/index.php?title=Some_Other_Road_Types_Definition why isn't this implemented yet? 01:23:33 <peter1138> it's not on the newgrf-specs wiki! 01:23:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it really doesn't say anything in the specs about triggers being only triggered if in the default chain (or CB1, which allegedly doesn't even exist) 01:24:11 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it's not on MB's private fork of the newgrf specs wiki? 01:24:21 <peter1138> the specs also don't say that CB14 (and every other possible callback) will be executed during a trigger 01:24:36 <peter1138> actually it doesn't mention that triggers are "executed" at all 01:24:45 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-077-228.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 01:24:55 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the specs don't say anything about anything needing to be executed for a trigger 01:25:09 <peter1138> stands to reason though 01:25:23 <peter1138> "new cargo waiting" is clearly an event 01:25:30 <peter1138> "train arrives"... 01:26:11 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: make a BFS or DFS on the chains, ignoring all the conditions? 01:26:30 <peter1138> so that you can't do conditional rerandomisation? sure 01:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> or is there something like computed varaction2 target? :) 01:27:13 <peter1138> there is actually 01:27:48 <Eddi|zuHause> how? 01:28:16 <peter1138> oh, varaction2 target, no, don't think so 01:28:50 <peter1138> that's procedures, but they're linked at load time 01:29:19 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, the object randomisation synchronisation thing, could that be done by implementing randomaction2 type 84 for <whatever>tiles, taking a two-dimensional parameter? 01:29:49 <peter1138> it's called for each tile 01:30:21 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. randomaction2 type 84 for vehicles accesses randombits of other vehicles in the chain 01:30:51 <Eddi|zuHause> so randomaction2 type 84 for *tiles could possibly access randombits of other nearby tiles 01:32:56 <peter1138> sounds awkward 01:33:09 <peter1138> you'd need massive chains to do anything 01:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you can pass the value in register 0x100 if you need to compute the coordinates 01:34:05 <Pikka> massive chains are awesome, peter1138! 01:34:44 <peter1138> you're probably just better off accessing the station's random bits 01:35:09 <peter1138> of course, no guarantee they something else didn't randomise them 01:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not entirely sure what the actual problem was 01:36:18 <Eddi|zuHause> so forget i said anything 01:36:23 <peter1138> ok 01:38:08 <peter1138> 4 bits is a bit feeble 01:38:30 <peter1138> but... 16 random variations ought to be plenty... 01:40:09 <Pikka> in my experience, the problem with a small number of random bits tends to be when you want to have independent random chains 01:40:56 <Pikka> eg, if you want to have a randomised version of a house/vehicle/whatever, and then on top of that you want a random colour, etc 01:41:21 <Pikka> one runs out of bits very quickly doing that :) 01:41:58 <peter1138> vehicles shuld be ok 01:42:04 <peter1138> or is it still only 8 random bis 01:42:05 <peter1138> *bits 01:42:12 <Pikka> I'm not saying it's a problem 01:42:23 <peter1138> "in my experience, the problem" 01:42:25 <peter1138> you're not? :D 01:42:27 <Pikka> oh 01:42:41 <Pikka> well, "the situation in which you tend to use up a lot of random bits" then 01:43:29 <peter1138> oh 01:43:32 <peter1138> yeah, vehicles are 8 bits 01:43:33 <peter1138> weird 01:43:37 <peter1138> that's easy to change 01:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> random bits cause problems if you want to have like 3 variations of equal chance 01:43:42 <peter1138> guess nobody requested it 01:43:46 <Pikka> 8 bits is plenty 01:43:51 <Pikka> even for UKRS2 :) 01:44:10 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:44:15 <Eddi|zuHause> if the sum is not a power of 2 01:44:24 <Eddi|zuHause> then the chances can't be equal 01:44:30 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, well, patchman 01:44:31 <Pikka> the solution in that case is "deal wit it" eddi :) 01:45:02 <Pikka> or stop being lazy and draw another variation ;) 01:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i think in CETS i used something like 2:3:3 for 1st/2nd/3rd class carriage appearance 01:45:26 <Pikka> sounds perfectly reasonable 01:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> but that needs 3 random bits instead of 2 01:48:39 <peter1138> -uint32 mask = (this->num_groups - 1) << this->lowest_randbit; 01:48:39 <peter1138> -byte index = (scope->GetRandomBits() & mask) >> this->lowest_randbit; 01:48:39 <peter1138> +byte index = (scope->GetRandomBits() >> this->lowest_randbit) % this->num_groups; 01:48:51 <peter1138> but hey 01:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/1990/Hawthorn___Co.__6._Okt_1922.png 01:49:10 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:50:13 <Pikka> how handy 01:51:58 <Eddi|zuHause> need curvy rails ;) 01:52:27 <Supercheese> Curvy rails are easy. Curvy rails that never glitch... less so 01:52:57 <peter1138> easy? 01:52:57 <peter1138> ok 01:53:20 <Supercheese> Raw sprites that is, with no code to handle funky combinations 01:53:31 <Supercheese> ergo, glitchy 01:53:41 <peter1138> wouldn't be glitchy at all 01:53:47 <peter1138> without code they're won't be shown :p 01:54:35 <Supercheese> of course 01:54:43 <peter1138> -'re 01:55:01 <peter1138> Pikka, so when does ukrs2 get long wagons? :D 01:55:20 <Pikka> never 01:55:27 <Pikka> the broken perspective annoys me too much 01:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the only thing it needs to show is a railtype variable to query the railbits of current adjacent tiles 01:55:57 <Pikka> eddi: sounds a bit like my roadtypes spec :) 01:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes-ish 01:56:16 <Pikka> well, yes-ish 01:56:27 <Pikka> I only want to query the road type, not the bits 01:57:19 <Eddi|zuHause> but you're trying to offload things that the game should do onto the GRF 01:58:08 <peter1138> the game can't possibly do it 01:58:29 <peter1138> it would be a horrible mess of conditions 01:58:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the catenary code already does this 01:59:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (check adjacent trackbits for whether catenary should be shown) 01:59:44 <peter1138> trust me, it's different 02:00:34 <peter1138> where would it get the sprites from? 02:00:41 <peter1138> how would it know which to choose? 02:01:45 <Pikka> magic 02:02:44 *** dot__ [~dothacker@cpe-67-248-40-38.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 02:05:58 <peter1138> hmm, 15 sprites needed just for all combinations of a flat road tile 02:06:13 <peter1138> +4 slopes 02:07:09 <peter1138> now to add adjacency checking... 02:08:00 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 02:08:03 <drac_boy> hi 02:08:18 <Pikka> good fun, eh peter? :) 02:08:45 <Pikka> it's one of those things where you template and repeat, though. It looks more daunting than it is. 02:09:07 <Pikka> iteration 02:09:35 *** dot_ [~dothacker@cpe-74-67-18-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: the problem that is usually cited is that if you offload it onto the grf, you need excessive CPU power to resolve the sprites 02:10:05 <peter1138> could be up to 15 combinations of that 02:10:09 <Eddi|zuHause> which means you need to cache something 02:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> which needs more map space 02:10:26 <peter1138> so you could need up to 285 sprites (some of which aren't used mind you) 02:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: why do you need these combinations? 02:11:11 <Pikka> why does it need any more cpu time in grf than in ottd? 02:11:14 <peter1138> for checking adjacency 02:11:20 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: are you talking about the trams thing or the curvy rails? 02:11:21 <Pikka> caching is good :) 02:11:26 <peter1138> trams 02:11:54 <Pikka> peter1138: I'll give it a go if you want it 02:12:09 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: if you keep the overlay and the underlay separate, you still need only 15 sprites times two 02:12:24 <peter1138> Pikka, over head of the sprite resolving state machine 02:12:40 <peter1138> what overlay? 02:12:48 <Pikka> noverlay 02:12:53 <peter1138> base ground sprite + road overlay 02:12:59 <Pikka> needs caching then, peter1138? 02:13:03 <Eddi|zuHause> road = underlay, tram = overlay 02:13:20 <Pikka> no 02:13:24 <peter1138> but tram doesn't exist 02:13:25 <Pikka> haven't we been here before? :D 02:14:39 <Eddi|zuHause> or rather: "road": underlay = road surface, overlay = empty, "tram": unterlay = dirt/grass, overlay = rails, "road+tram" underlay = road surface, overlay = rails 02:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> for sprite drawing purposes 02:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> combining road and tram in one sprite is insane 02:15:40 <drac_boy> seem so pikka 02:15:40 <Pikka> oh hello 02:16:35 <Pikka> no, it isn't eddi 02:16:43 <Pikka> but we've already gone around this one 3 times today 02:17:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: we haven't talked about drawing yet 02:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the whole discussion before was just about implementation and gameplay details 02:18:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (at least from my side) 02:18:06 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, still wouldn't help anyway 02:18:09 <Pikka> you draw the road sprite provided by the grf, done 02:18:10 <peter1138> 1 ground sprite 02:18:24 <peter1138> 19 road underlays 02:18:27 <peter1138> 19 road overlays 02:18:38 <peter1138> but 02:18:45 <peter1138> that isn't going to work 02:19:12 <peter1138> well, probably not 02:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: well, i'm still against the one-layer-solution anyway :) 02:19:49 <peter1138> you'd need some way to have an index into the spriteset for the custom overlays 02:20:42 <peter1138> ah so you prefer two road types per tile 02:21:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd actually prefer three, but... ;) 02:21:09 <peter1138> it's easy then cos you've got all the roadbits you need 02:21:13 <peter1138> why free? 02:21:15 <peter1138> ihdrfughohrioawh 02:21:17 <peter1138> why three? 02:21:45 <peter1138> also who's gonna pay for the storage space for that heh 02:21:51 <Pikka> :) 02:22:21 <Pikka> so, realistically, how much overhead are we talking? 02:22:21 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine: road, tram, trolleybus. imagine trolleybus is "tram-like" and can run under tram catenary. if you want to connect a trolleybus to a tram line, you'd get excessive tram rails on that connection tile 02:22:50 <peter1138> Pikka, i really wouldn't like to be doing that for every road tile 02:22:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: nobody ever measured that, which is why the argument is disputed 02:24:06 <peter1138> it's like running a (simple) cpu on top of a cpu 02:24:14 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: or imagine a "elevated rail" or "subway" (hacky-)roadtype, then crossing one of these over a road+tram tile is difficult 02:24:35 <peter1138> elevated/subway can fuck off 02:24:58 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: also this makes road+tram over rail easier, just replace the third type with the rail, and you get a fully flexible tile 02:25:04 <Pikka> fwiw, in my example, non-junction tiles go through 1 var2 (to determine they're not a junction), T junctions go through 4, and X junctions go through 5... 02:25:07 <Pikka> here here peter1138 02:25:21 <Pikka> also hear hear if you prefer 02:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes, that example is weak, but i think the other one is valid 02:25:58 <peter1138> just replace? 02:26:14 <Pikka> you also won't need to do this for every roadtype, just ones which need fancy junctions (ie tramtracks) 02:26:33 <Pikka> normal eg town roads will not need fancy junctions and so will not have any overhead 02:26:47 <peter1138> fully flexible tile 02:26:54 <peter1138> how fully flexible? 02:27:00 <peter1138> diagonal level crossings? 02:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> for example. 02:27:20 <peter1138> sure 02:27:32 <Eddi|zuHause> in theory you could also have rails-on-roads that way 02:27:39 <peter1138> okay so you now have a limit of 16 rail & road types together 02:27:42 <Eddi|zuHause> with the roads having crossings 02:27:53 <peter1138> apparently 16 rail types wasn't enough, but now you get less 02:27:58 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:28:04 <Pikka> yay 02:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what the how? 02:28:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what are you talking about now? 02:28:26 <Pikka> let's not do roadtypes until we can work out how to integrate road-on-rail, elevated monorails and real subways! 02:28:27 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 02:28:28 <peter1138> hmm, so roads have 4 track bits, and rails have 6 track bits, so that's not going to fit 02:29:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (you need another bit to say that this tile has rails on it) 02:29:20 <peter1138> ok 02:30:09 <peter1138> or you extend level crossings and only permit 2 road types and 1 rail type 02:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i squeezed the rails in 3 bits (disallowing switches) in my patch (which is mostly an updated version of some ancient patch i found somewhere) 02:30:38 <peter1138> because what you suggested is gonna need a hell of a lot of special casing for something funky 02:30:44 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye !] 02:30:54 <Pikka> special casing needs to die 02:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> also rails need bits for the reservation 02:31:58 <peter1138> i think i'd rather leave all level crossings be perpendicular 02:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's certainly not that easy 02:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i have the patch somewhere *dig* 02:33:36 <peter1138> btw, if you go with 1 road type, and use a combined road/tram type, you can get away with having more than 16 types 02:33:52 <peter1138> also you're right about overlays, that will be there 02:34:11 <peter1138> or not 02:34:17 <peter1138> thinkng about sprite sorting :S 02:34:23 <peter1138> 1) groundsprite 02:34:29 <peter1138> 2) road sprite 02:34:53 <peter1138> 3) catenary... but... poles need to be sorted so that can't just be one sprite 02:34:55 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:13 <Pikka> catenary back, catenary front 02:35:17 <Pikka> does it need splitting more than that? 02:35:22 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 02:35:40 <peter1138> might be enough 02:35:58 <peter1138> in which case that's 4 sprites :S 02:36:25 <Pikka> is that bad? 02:36:32 <peter1138> well it adds up, heh 02:36:47 <Pikka> is that a problem? :) 02:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_and_adjacent_crossings_r22664.diff <-- not entirely sure how complete that is 02:38:38 <Eddi|zuHause> http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diag_cross.png <- this should go to the media/extra_grf thingie 02:39:03 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's not actually used, because i couldn't figure out the drawing part of the old patch 02:39:27 <Eddi|zuHause> (apparently that was by Maedhros) 02:39:31 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 02:40:59 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/diagonal_crossings_r5911_drawing_part.diff 02:47:31 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 02:48:28 *** Progman_ [~progman@p57A1B9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:49:36 <peter1138> 5911 :) 02:52:58 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1BEDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 02:53:04 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman 02:53:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that was the revision i updated the patch from 02:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and this part didn't fit anywhere, because of the railtypes and overlay stuff for level crossings 02:55:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 02:58:26 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise i just ripped out the crossing-closing code and merged it with my adjacent crossings code, which is more flexible (and was the biggest problem with the old patch in MiniIN) 02:59:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i reshuffled some code wrt the map bits 03:00:07 <peter1138> cbh 03:00:14 <peter1138> need that 03:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'll settle for sleep for now 03:07:06 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:07:33 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 03:10:55 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:11:23 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 03:28:22 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.16.175.97] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:31:53 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 03:32:22 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 03:34:21 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [] 03:47:14 *** Biolunar_ [mahdi@blfd-4d083c65.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 03:54:35 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d08f89e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 04:56:38 *** pjpe [ae5f48b7@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 04:57:09 *** pjpe [ae5f48b7@ircip4.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 05:56:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD4479.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 05:56:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66FBB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:05:16 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-50-91.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:32:47 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 07:12:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:20:19 <andythenorth> moin 07:25:36 <andythenorth> @seen pokka 07:25:36 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pokka was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 22 hours, 7 minutes, and 1 second ago: <Pokka> no, it doesn't mean anything, Supercheese 07:25:42 <andythenorth> @seen pikka 07:25:42 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: pikka was last seen in #openttd 4 hours, 48 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Pikka> is that a problem? :) 07:28:56 <Rubidium> andythenorth: good morning... and you were a little over an hour too late ;) 07:31:12 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-065-111.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 07:36:35 <andythenorth> hrm 07:37:01 <andythenorth> strikes me that the combinatorial hassle of drawing roadtypes could be handled at compile time 07:38:54 <andythenorth> use a standard spritesheet 07:39:10 <andythenorth> take each layer, knock out blue with PIL, composite, done 07:49:32 <andythenorth> peter1138: ^ 07:49:42 <andythenorth> newgrf author can sort that out 07:50:38 <andythenorth> probly worth making a standard spritesheet, but I'll wait for pokka to show up :P 07:55:44 *** George [~George@212.113.107.39] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:10:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:19:43 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:20:42 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 08:31:41 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-130.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: DDR is not Dance Dance Revolution.] 08:32:22 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:42:17 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 08:55:22 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 09:09:01 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:16:09 *** tycoondemon2 [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 09:16:09 *** tycoondemon [tycoondemo@524B5F54.cm-4-4b.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:17:13 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 09:17:16 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 09:19:28 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 09:21:54 *** KouDy [~KouDy@188.75.190.58] has joined #openttd 09:23:00 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-235-35.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:26:32 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 09:29:28 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:41:17 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 09:47:33 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:47:36 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 09:47:56 <Alberth> moin 10:06:45 <andythenorth> o/ 10:07:05 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:08:02 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 10:10:20 <andythenorth> how do we feel about industry types specfying number of instances to be on the map, rather than probability? 10:12:41 <andythenorth> scaled for map size 10:12:45 <andythenorth> with some random factor 10:13:24 <Zuu> How does that work with GSes? 10:13:55 <Zuu> Can a GS build an industry even if the max limit is reached? 10:14:33 <Zuu> Oh, and can a player fund an industry beyond the limit? 10:14:39 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:14:53 <andythenorth> Zuu: yes to all three afaict 10:15:09 <andythenorth> this is only to be used by map gen / in-game industry generator 10:15:19 <andythenorth> there are already cbs for handling the other cases properly 10:15:27 <Zuu> And then as industries close it will fall down to the "max" level. 10:16:57 <Zuu> A problem might be that in some economy there might an incresing demand for some type of industry. Though, that perhaps should be handeled at GS side? 10:18:36 <andythenorth> certainly openttd can't handle that for a specific newgrf, or at least not blind 10:18:57 <andythenorth> GS could handle, but then GS is blind too... 10:19:49 <Zuu> I just got the idea of a GS. Ask the player to create a map with zero industries. THen the GS create one of each industry. when usage of an industry goes over some limit, a new industry of that type is built. 10:20:12 <Zuu> If it want to be even more advanced it could try to analyze the cargo chains to see if there are parallell chains. 10:20:52 <Zuu> Eg. don't build a new farm if there is a unused copper mine (in temperate, default industries) 10:21:49 <Zuu> The idea is that one could see transported cargo in the game as the demand. 10:23:11 <Zuu> But clearly, the GS will not be able to skip some industries in the early years and then later introduce them without doing that blindly. 10:24:32 <Zuu> It have access to the cargo chain graph, so it could eg. skip industries of FIRS at higher level during some years for example. Although that means that you will not get any supplies. 10:24:33 <andythenorth> it would if it knew the industry newgrf :P 10:24:33 <Terkhen> good morning 10:25:11 <andythenorth> I am quite interested in providing a compatibility [something] between FIRS and GS 10:25:14 <andythenorth> lo Terkhen 10:26:40 <Zuu> andythenorth: You could introduce a NewGRF -> GS communication channel by creating an engine that never get buildable (if possible), and use some stats parameter to communicate eg. your identity to the GS. 10:26:59 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 10:27:55 <Zuu> It might also be possible to create some sort of signature based on stas from multiple engines/industries etc. that would probably work quite well. Although that would bypass the whole idea that GSes should be allowed to adopt via the API to any NewGRF etc. without specific code for each NewGRF. 10:28:55 <andythenorth> I think that idea is limiting 10:29:11 <andythenorth> otoh, binding too tightly to say one specific rev of FIRS - unmaintainable 10:29:57 <Terkhen> when is FIRS going to become "stable" WRT industries and cargos? :P 10:30:59 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host204-174-dynamic.52-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 10:31:00 *** Celestar [~vici@dslb-092-075-040-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 10:31:03 *** mode/#openttd [+o Celestar] by ChanServ 10:31:04 <Celestar> whooop 10:31:05 <Wolf01> hello 10:31:09 <Wolf01> whoa 10:31:25 <Terkhen> hi Wolf01 and Celestar :) 10:31:32 <Celestar> heya peops :) 10:31:39 <Wolf01> sir Celestar, nice to meet you :) 10:31:48 <Celestar> yo wolf, how ya doing? 10:32:26 <Wolf01> just sleeping and hunting as always 10:32:33 <Celestar> :) 10:33:19 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it will never become stable from a GS point of view 10:33:25 <andythenorth> because of parameters and economies 10:33:51 <andythenorth> can't rely on specific behaviour 10:33:58 <Terkhen> thought so, my question was about cargo support by other NewGRFs 10:34:41 <andythenorth> it's about as stable now as it will ever be 10:34:46 <andythenorth> draw your own conclusion :) 10:34:53 <Terkhen> but even with regard to GS, once that existing economies become "stable" the only additions in principle could just be new economies 10:35:18 <andythenorth> yes 10:35:27 <andythenorth> but you don't know which one the player has active 10:35:31 <Terkhen> and now I also wonder if OpenGFX+ Industries is nasty for GS too, with its customizable chains :P 10:35:33 <andythenorth> and chains might be quite different 10:35:34 <Terkhen> oh! 10:35:39 <Terkhen> you don't? 10:35:57 <Terkhen> that complicates things 10:36:15 <andythenorth> I do think it's correct to not allow tightly binding GS to newgrf 10:36:29 <andythenorth> the issue is that we have no abstraction layer for this 10:36:43 <andythenorth> industry <-> cargo <-> vehicles is handled by labels, classes and CTT 10:36:52 <andythenorth> rather well now, despite occasional gripes 10:37:00 <Zuu> Terkhen: They can be nasty to Neighbours are important. Because it still uses a hard coded set of town effects per climate. I haven't got around to even think about making it more dynamic untill FLHerne told me about an issue due to this. 10:37:46 <Zuu> A more propper way would be to resolve which town effects that have at least one cargo (which can be produced) 10:38:14 <Terkhen> Zuu: I see... and you can't deduce the active industries by looking at the active cargos with OpenGFX+ Industries either; there are chain changes that do not alter the active cargos (such as the sawmill or forest as wood producing industry change) 10:38:36 <Terkhen> the scenario format is going to need an abstraction scheme for industries anyways 10:38:55 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:39:08 <Terkhen> maybe it could be possible to introduce a single format that can be used by both GS and the new scenarios 10:39:28 <andythenorth> we might already have it... 10:39:31 <Terkhen> but our usual discussions about that topic did not reach a clear conclusion IIRC 10:39:34 <Terkhen> which one? :O 10:39:36 <andythenorth> industry type (primary, secondary etc) 10:39:48 <andythenorth> extractive, organic 10:39:59 <Terkhen> well, that's better than nothing I guess :P 10:40:09 <Zuu> I don't exactly follow what you want, but it might be useful. 10:40:13 <andythenorth> hrm 10:40:19 <Terkhen> WRT the scenario format, I guess that you could define "primary organic industry at X, Y" 10:40:21 <andythenorth> we could do the equivalent of a CTT 10:40:23 <Celestar> eh. good to see that fonso is still working on cd :D 10:40:46 <Terkhen> and OpenTTD would cycle through all the available industries that match and create one of them there if the NewGRF restrictions allow it 10:40:48 <Zuu> Another thing that the scenario format might provide is a set of strings with some english text identifier that the GS can iterate over and use in GUIs. 10:41:19 <Terkhen> the scenario format is only used for map generation 10:41:34 <Zuu> For example a scenario in the secnario format may provide a set of texts to use as an introduction text for players. A generic GS can then find this text and display it. 10:41:58 <Terkhen> hmm... that's interesting :P 10:42:12 <Zuu> It could be done with signs though, but tedious for longer texts and no support for translations. 10:42:21 <andythenorth> Terkhen: how much data can the scenario format encode for a specific tile? 10:42:29 <Terkhen> andythenorth: there are no limits 10:42:31 <andythenorth> ok 10:42:42 <Terkhen> each data is stored in a different layer 10:42:43 <andythenorth> so you might, for example, specify a list of cargo labels for a tile 10:42:46 <andythenorth> in order 10:42:56 <Terkhen> and industries are stored in a ini-like file 10:43:04 <andythenorth> and openttd would try and build industries producing those cargos 10:43:07 <andythenorth> or accepting 10:43:20 <andythenorth> that's about as much control as is justified imho 10:43:22 <Zuu> I still wonder when *someone* will create a generic Scenario Toolbox GS. Which have a set of triggers and a set of actions and uses signs + GS config to configure scenarios. That would enable people without knowledge about programming to create some more dynamic scenarios. 10:44:00 <Terkhen> andythenorth: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2031/ <-- something on the lines of this 10:44:23 <andythenorth> cargos=[COAL,IORE,BAUX] 10:44:35 <andythenorth> dunno if that's useful 10:44:39 <andythenorth> seems kind of neat though 10:44:46 <Terkhen> Zuu: what would those triggers do? 10:45:15 <Zuu> For shorter instructions, signs should work well. They can hold up to 32 chars and can easily be removed by the GS before the player sees it by just storing their position + content in memory and remove all signs during the 2500 ticks setup. 10:45:34 <Terkhen> andythenorth: IIRC our conclusion last time was to "define how the original industry worked and make a magical function in OpenTTD that finds the most similar industry" 10:46:03 <Terkhen> that would work perfectly fine if you use the same NewGRF that originated the scenario in the first time, and would give poor results (as expected) with other NewGRFs 10:46:06 <Zuu> Terkhen: A trigger would be a condition. Eg Year=1987 10:46:54 <andythenorth> Terkhen so find the best fit over action 0 properties or something? 10:46:57 <Terkhen> Zuu: so the scenario would define triggers by an specific ID, and the GS would be able to check that trigger to see when it should do a certain thing? 10:47:01 <Zuu> I also think that it might be useful to allow placing label signs which can be used by other signs to refer to locations of the map. 10:47:10 <Terkhen> andythenorth: yes, that should be simpler 10:47:19 <Zuu> So that you can refer to a town/industry without knowing their internal ID. 10:47:37 <Zuu> (but limits to towns/industries that exist when the scenario is created) 10:47:55 <Zuu> Terkhen: Yes 10:48:32 <Terkhen> with regard to the ini format used in the scenario format for stuff that is not defined in most tiles (those use image layers) defining a "trigger object file" would be trivial 10:48:51 <Terkhen> I have no idea about OpenTTD's implementation of those, though :P 10:48:53 <Zuu> I also think that the scenario author should be able to choose from a set of actions to bind togeather with the triggers. 10:49:25 <Zuu> From my understanding this (my scenario toolbox GS idea) is already possible to implement as a GS. 10:50:34 <Zuu> Both Split and the Beginner Tutorial use a library called TileLabels which allow me to define named locations in the .scn by placing signs with $L=name, and then refer to "name" to query for that location. 10:51:40 <Zuu> The library takes care of reading all these signs into memory so that the player never sees them. It also helps saving/loading the named locations into save games. 10:51:57 <Terkhen> I am a bit lost because I don't know much about AI/Script coding (OpenTTD or not), but if you can represent what you want in a human readable text file, it should not present many problems from a scenario format point of view 10:52:07 <Terkhen> you could have a GS layer that defines those 10:52:26 <Terkhen> labels for points, labels for towns, labels for industries and triggers 10:53:07 <Terkhen> the loading code is easy, but I don't know if OpenTTD should or could write those when you generate a scenario 10:53:08 <Alberth> just named positions would be enough like "name = (17, 31)" or "name = (45%, 78%)" 10:53:47 <Alberth> hmm, no idea what the format does with size of the map 10:56:19 <Zuu> I don't know if we want additional location based signs to those we already have. What we might want to add (both in vanilia OpenTTD and the secenario format) is longer texts that are not location based. Eg. for the author of a scenario to include a mission description inside the scenario. (In some cases he/she will use a full-blown mission-specific GS and can then leave all that up to the GS. In other cases the GS will not work (well) with rando 10:56:19 <Zuu> m games, but need the scenario athuor to set things up. In the later case the scenario author might want to customize the welcome message or some news message shown by some date etc.) 10:59:40 <Alberth> some meta-text may be useful, I agree :) 10:59:47 <Terkhen> it is planned (although not for the first implementation of the format) to add a langs folder with language files, for stuff such as the scenario name and description 11:00:19 <Zuu> What will have use for some industry abstraction might be when you want to have a action to build industry X. How do you as the scenario author know (or specify) the internal ID of the industry that you want to build? 11:00:20 <Terkhen> you could add more strings to those files that can be used by GS, but then the scenarios would not be "cleanly generated" anymore 11:00:21 <andythenorth> using the scenario format to put GS controls on the map makes total sense to me 11:01:03 <Terkhen> what I mean is that you would need to either store those strings "somewhere" in the generated map (if I understand the current situation correctly, all those strings are extracted from NewGRFs, scripts and so on on load) 11:01:23 <Terkhen> or to keep the "new scenario" from which the map was generated around to get those strings on load 11:01:36 <Terkhen> but it would not be a "generate and forget" situation anymore 11:01:54 <Zuu> The GS strings are to my undestanding stored in the savegame to allow network clients to show translated strings without having the GS locally. 11:01:57 <Alberth> andythenorth: probability is nearly equivalent to number of instances when you state the total number of industries 11:02:07 <Terkhen> sorry if I'm playing the devil's advocate here, I like the idea a lot too :) 11:02:19 <Terkhen> Zuu: then the scenario format strings could use the same mechanism, yes :) 11:02:29 <Zuu> The String parameter evaluating code actually contain a parameter for if it tries to decode a game script string or not. 11:03:07 <Alberth> andythenorth: on my last attempt I tried to get the latter from a NewGRF with a generic cb, but failed :( 11:03:29 <Alberth> tbh, I like some variation in the precise number of instances of each type 11:13:15 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 11:13:24 <andythenorth> Alberth: random factor :P 11:13:35 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #openttd 11:13:56 <Alberth> so you go back to probability of instances :p 11:14:09 <andythenorth> +/-1 multiplied by map scaling factor 11:14:17 <Alberth> or do you want to move the random sampling into the NewGRF? 11:14:26 <peter1138> compile errors in clang are noisy 11:14:36 <andythenorth> random sampling could be in openttd, or newgrf 11:14:37 <andythenorth> don't mind 11:14:44 <andythenorth> I'm trying to make my life easy as a coder 11:14:45 <andythenorth> hrm 11:14:56 <andythenorth> alternative suggestion, I do this at compile time with python 11:15:22 <andythenorth> means walking all the industries every time for every economy 11:15:39 <Alberth> 1/2 a second? :) 11:17:25 <andythenorth> trying to work out the maths 11:17:28 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:17:39 <andythenorth> so I want 5 hotels, 4 coal mines, 6 petrol stations on the map 11:17:47 <andythenorth> 15 in total 11:17:49 <andythenorth> hrm 11:17:54 <andythenorth> can't control the total :P 11:18:13 <Celestar> yo peter1138 :D :D 11:18:14 <andythenorth> two problems actually 11:18:24 <andythenorth> 1) can't control number of industries (do I care?) 11:18:36 <SpComb> peter1138: make 2> /dev/dsp 11:18:41 <andythenorth> 2) every time an industry type is added / removed, probability has to be recalculated for all others 11:18:52 <andythenorth> 2 is a problem for authoring economies :P 11:19:03 <peter1138> Celestar! :D 11:19:35 <peter1138> SpComb, yeah but i need them else i won't know to fix 11:19:38 <Celestar> how dyou do? 11:20:19 <peter1138> badly, i'm coding using the method of "fix errors as they come" instead of "planning" 11:20:24 <peter1138> nah, pretty well, how's you? 11:20:28 <Celestar> lol 11:20:36 <Celestar> good good :) 11:20:48 <Alberth> andythenorth: have some sort of graph that states desired number of industries of the types over time, and derive the probabilities from that (not sure how to do that exactly) 11:20:59 <Celestar> I just don't code outside of work anymore :P 11:21:06 <Alberth> :( 11:21:26 <Celestar> Maybe because I have to do enterprise-java shit at the moment and it makes me wanna puke 11:22:00 <Celestar> otoh, that would be a reason to do some real coding again 11:22:17 <Alberth> and a bit of low-level bit-coding in C++ wouldn't make you happy again? 11:22:27 <Celestar> I think it might :) 11:22:45 <andythenorth> Alberth: more fine control than I want; think industry over time is a GS thing? 11:22:57 <Alberth> it does for me, at least (doing Java too, but luckily no enterprise stuff) 11:23:15 <andythenorth> also, probability cb would already allow time-based control ;) 11:23:16 <peter1138> Celestar, i know a small project you could do 11:23:22 <Celestar> lmao 11:23:24 <peter1138> custom bridge heads ;) 11:23:30 <Celestar> haha 11:23:34 <Celestar> you got a point there 11:23:45 <peter1138> fcvo small 11:23:55 <Celestar> fcwhat 11:24:01 <peter1138> it was only small back in rprehistoric 11:24:07 <peter1138> for certain values of 11:24:19 <Alberth> andythenorth: you probably won't get that much control, I was seeing it as a better way to specify your economy 11:24:34 <Alberth> ie let Python do the complicated math stuff 11:24:43 <Celestar> I am not sure I still recognize the code :P 11:24:51 <SpComb> I'm busy separating mechanism and policy myself 11:25:25 <andythenorth> ah :) 'Economy' is more of an action 6/7/9 whatever it's called :P (turn industries on or off in game) 11:25:38 <andythenorth> otherwise they appear in minimap etc 11:25:41 <andythenorth> hrm 11:25:44 <andythenorth> no 11:25:47 <andythenorth> that was a bad idea I had 11:26:00 <Alberth> but you caught it in time :) 11:26:00 <andythenorth> enable types to be disabled / enabled during gameplay 11:26:03 <andythenorth> bad bad bad andythenorth 11:26:09 <SpComb> although trouble is that once you start implementing the policy, you end up having to separate that into mechaism and policy as well 11:27:09 <SpComb> and then you get all confused because your policy-policy that you have to implement in your policy-mechanism isn't defined well enough 11:27:34 <andythenorth> the only question for policy 11:27:38 <andythenorth> is how far you deviate from it :P 11:27:38 <SpComb> and then once you've spent a week writing python, you realize that you could do the same thing in ten lines of shellscript 11:27:41 <andythenorth> in practice 11:27:43 * Rubidium waves to Celestar 11:27:57 <andythenorth> SpComb you must be doing devops :O 11:28:06 <SpComb> kinda 11:28:21 <SpComb> the concrete thing I'm doing is syslog -> irc 11:29:23 <SpComb> I'm smart enough to separate it into syslog-ng, a python script, and irker (or similar) 11:29:42 <Celestar> hey Rubidium :D 11:29:56 <SpComb> but now I need to figure out what kind of config file the python script should use to regexp the syslogs 11:31:29 <Alberth> INI format :) 11:31:39 <SpComb> indeed 11:32:16 <SpComb> however, there are multiple syslog hosts, facilities and programs, and possibly multiple irker targets (irc channels) 11:32:53 <Alberth> oh, you're making your life complicated :p 11:32:55 <SpComb> e.g. some hosts should show all ssh logins, others should ignore some sudo commands, etc 11:33:16 <SpComb> Alberth: no, I'm separating mechanism and policy \o/ 11:33:20 <andythenorth> hrm 11:33:27 <andythenorth> does FISH separate policy and mechanism? 11:33:34 <andythenorth> also where is frosch? 11:33:38 <andythenorth> he usually turns up when needed :P 11:33:42 <Alberth> one cfg file for each irc channel, with a [enable] and a [disable] section with named REs ? 11:33:54 <Alberth> you don't need him, apparently :p 11:34:20 <andythenorth> well views need him ;) 11:34:34 <andythenorth> and FISH needs views 11:34:35 <andythenorth> ego... 11:34:38 <andythenorth> ergo* 11:34:53 <SpComb> Alberth: and copy-paste everything across them? D: 11:35:40 <Celestar> Rubidium: how is life treating you 11:36:35 <SpComb> http://issnar.paivola.fi/~terom/hg/index.cgi/pvl-verkko/file/11b267e1b2b0/etc/syslog.conf 11:36:56 <andythenorth> SpComb: explicit is better 11:37:05 <andythenorth> here's a nice idea 11:37:10 <andythenorth> template your ini files? 11:37:15 <andythenorth> keep the definitions in classes? 11:37:18 <andythenorth> and write them out? 11:38:03 <SpComb> observe the nested sections that filter on matched fields in the parent rule \o/ 11:38:37 <andythenorth> so keep them in classes, use inheritance (multiply if needed) 11:38:45 <andythenorth> you could also add interfaces :P 11:38:53 <SpComb> inheritance is evil 11:38:53 <andythenorth> write out the ini files at compile time 11:39:06 <andythenorth> my idea is definitely *not* smoking crack :P 11:44:11 <andythenorth> herp, the way I described is actually how FISH and BANDIT are constructed :P 11:44:30 <andythenorth> classes in python web cms -> ini file -> python build framework 11:44:40 <andythenorth> draw your own conclusion about my mental state :P 11:51:27 <Rubidium> Celestar: life's good, but for some reason I haven't got a huge drive to do OpenTTD stuff in the last time :( 11:51:35 *** Celestar [~vici@dslb-092-075-040-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:51:40 <Rubidium> oh... typical! 11:51:58 <Rubidium> that's how it's supposed to be 11:52:05 <Rubidium> brings back memories 11:52:24 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7dab.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:53:41 <andythenorth> quak 11:53:43 <andythenorth> there he is 11:55:31 <frosch123> moin :) 11:57:04 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:58:26 <andythenorth> herp views 11:59:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: any more ideas ^ 11:59:16 * andythenorth is considering redesigning FISH 11:59:22 <andythenorth> and BANDIT 11:59:26 <frosch123> i wanted to write a spec two weeks ago :) 11:59:28 <andythenorth> maybe HEQS too :P 11:59:58 <andythenorth> frosch123: what blocked you? :) 12:03:37 <frosch123> "I'm so excited I even looked up the bbcode for numbered list" :) 12:04:32 <Alberth> :) 12:05:09 <andythenorth> I woke up in a funny mood today :P 12:05:11 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 12:05:17 <andythenorth> that trolling post found some troll bait 12:05:46 <andythenorth> I wish we had more TrueBrain 12:05:51 <andythenorth> he writes funny posts :P 12:06:01 <Flygon> I should post 12:06:10 <Flygon> I'd be the Forum Cloun! 12:06:11 <Flygon> ... 12:06:17 <Flygon> Or the forum English fail 12:06:31 <Alberth> both are good for some laughs :p 12:06:38 * andythenorth considers a petition 12:06:42 <andythenorth> for the return of DaleStan 12:09:30 <peter1138> uh oh 12:09:36 <peter1138> what's he up to these days anyway? 12:10:29 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: I am not sure if it is a compliment or not, but tnx :P 12:14:16 <andythenorth> compliment ;) 12:15:05 <TrueBrain> :D 12:15:25 <andythenorth> hmm 12:15:35 <andythenorth> bridge weight limits would enhance gameplay no? 12:15:39 <andythenorth> and axle loadings :P 12:16:49 <andythenorth> answer was 'no' 12:17:41 <frosch123> how about bridge height and low bridges? 12:17:51 <andythenorth> yay 12:17:58 <andythenorth> definitely more fine-grained realism :) 12:18:01 <andythenorth> more of that 12:18:15 <andythenorth> friction co-efficient of different road surface types? 12:18:19 <frosch123> more realistic road accidents :) 12:18:32 <frosch123> you do not have to send a train on a crossing 12:18:36 <frosch123> you can just build a low bridge 12:18:42 <frosch123> and every bus drives into it 12:19:34 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 12:19:38 <drac_boy> hi 12:20:09 <frosch123> isn't it 4 am at your side? 12:20:24 <drac_boy> nope..past 7 12:20:58 <frosch123> so, not .ca :) 12:21:29 <planetmaker> East coast? 12:21:38 <planetmaker> good morning everyone :-) 12:21:48 <frosch123> morning pm :) 12:23:01 <Alberth> moin 12:23:25 <drac_boy> frosch yes it is .ca 12:23:34 <Rubidium> frosch123: it's anywhere between 04:23 and 08:53 in Canada 12:23:42 <drac_boy> canada goes all way from east to west sides of the north america land silly :) 12:24:07 <frosch123> omg... why did i consider .ca as california? 12:24:16 <planetmaker> :D 12:24:16 <andythenorth> me too 12:24:23 <Alberth> it's sunnier there? :) 12:25:38 <andythenorth> ah 12:26:01 <andythenorth> if I know the number of industries in 'main' FIRS economy (I do), I can use that as a scaling factor for probability in other economies 12:26:10 <andythenorth> now I just need to outsource the maths :P 12:28:12 <Rubidium> so... you consider California as a country? 12:28:49 <andythenorth> almost is 12:31:06 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:31:24 <drac_boy> its a state :p 12:31:50 <frosch123> oh, there is a ".name" domain... never heard of that one 12:31:56 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 12:31:56 <andythenorth> someone on the interwebs is being wrong again 12:32:00 <andythenorth> should I correct them? 12:32:25 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 12:34:27 <Alberth> better disconnect all bad people from your internets 12:34:37 <andythenorth> I'm trying to drive them away :P 12:34:39 <andythenorth> not working 12:34:46 *** Celestar [~vici@dslb-092-075-040-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 12:34:52 <Alberth> wb 12:35:49 <Celestar> ta 12:36:05 <planetmaker> heia Celestar 12:36:40 *** FLHerne [~quassel@dsl-217-155-24-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 12:36:48 <Alberth> Celestar: you missed an answer from Rb: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd/link/1357386687#1357386687 12:37:19 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 12:37:49 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 12:38:27 <Celestar> Alberth: ta 12:38:32 <Celestar> Rubidium: lol :) 12:39:04 <Celestar> yo planetmaker 12:42:30 *** oskari892 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:46:16 <andythenorth> roadtype: plank road! 12:46:16 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plank_road 12:51:46 <frosch123> "I thought I have listed all possibilities..." 12:52:33 <frosch123> well, maybe road should be build in 3 parts 12:52:37 <frosch123> road, tram, catenary 12:53:13 <planetmaker> hm :-) People will find cases where it doesn't suffice 12:53:27 <planetmaker> I couldn't care less ;-) 12:53:37 <planetmaker> (about those edge-cases) 12:53:49 <frosch123> town owned road, company owned catenary 12:56:04 <peter1138> :S 12:56:24 <planetmaker> and 2nd-company-owned tracks? 12:58:13 <Celestar> why would you own a catenary if you don't have tracks? :P 12:58:24 <frosch123> trolley bus 12:58:26 <planetmaker> trolley bus 12:59:00 <frosch123> anyway, this issue already annoy me about railtypes. if there are 8 railtypes and 8 railtypes which are exactly the same as the first 8 but with catenary... there is something wrong 12:59:10 <frosch123> again the same with road types: 8 road types, same 8 plus catenary 12:59:23 <frosch123> that is just as stupid as cargo subtypes for number of wagons :) 12:59:26 <Celestar> 2 catenarties then!! :D 12:59:40 <planetmaker> agreed, frosch123 :-) 13:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so back to 3 layers, but this time not "freeform" but "road", "(tram-)rail", "catenary"? 13:00:48 <Eddi|zuHause> but you need to build the tram layer and the catenary layer at the same time... 13:01:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, why? 13:01:29 <planetmaker> and yes, could be done by a check-box type thing in the tram build menu 13:01:32 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: call the third one "power-supply" :) 13:01:49 <frosch123> then it can be "none", "catenary", "3rd rail" "3rd rail + catenary" :p 13:01:59 <planetmaker> which, incidentially, could also be extended to rail :D 13:02:08 <Celestar> 3rd rail for trams? 13:02:16 <planetmaker> yes. e.g. in bordeaux 13:02:45 <Eddi|zuHause> most metrorail systems are legally operated as trams 13:02:45 <Celestar> innit that a little dangerous 13:02:55 <Celestar> yeah, point 13:02:59 <planetmaker> nope. Only active when train over it. Outside downtown they use pantograph 13:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. Hamburg (Hochbahn) or Berlin (U-Bahn) 13:03:57 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-094-223-106-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 13:04:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think it's fine that route type + power are combined 13:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> some random thought i had: tram speed limit different if on-road and off-road 13:04:41 <Eddi|zuHause> (or maybe if both road and tram have a speedlimit, take the lowest one) 13:04:51 * andythenorth had a thought http://www.hankstruckpictures.com/pix/trucks/dick_giroux/logging/fraser_creek/kw_dumping_logs_into_water.jpg 13:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: newgrf roadstations [with animation] 13:10:42 <andythenorth> sometimes I think newgrf roadstops might be nice 13:10:47 <andythenorth> probably not the biggest deal though 13:11:09 <peter1138> sometimes i think starting from scratch might be nice 13:11:09 <andythenorth> aren't roadtypes either 'powered' or 'not' 13:11:22 <andythenorth> in fact, they're not even powered 13:11:27 <andythenorth> either they're compatible, or not 13:11:35 <andythenorth> it's that simple 13:12:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's not 13:12:36 <planetmaker> keeping a tram and a road "roadtype" might be nice. Unless we merge train an tram. But that's even more bear-trapped path, I fear 13:13:04 <peter1138> yeah well, trams have been coded as road vehicles :-( 13:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause> one tile could be "road with catenary" plus "tram without catenary", and the other could be "road without catenary" plus "tram with catenary" 13:13:18 <Eddi|zuHause> now figure out which vehicle can travel on it? 13:13:19 <peter1138> kinda right cos they're usually on roads 13:14:11 <peter1138> okay so 13:14:24 <peter1138> road + tram + a catenary-bit 13:14:30 <peter1138> same for rails 13:14:35 <peter1138> rail + a catenary-bit 13:14:41 <andythenorth> erp, I like one type per tile :P 13:14:42 <andythenorth> but eh 13:14:58 <peter1138> which goes all the way back to elrails 13:15:02 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: that fails once you consider multi-voltage [dutch set] or 3rd rail 13:15:20 <peter1138> not a problem with 3rd rail 13:15:32 <peter1138> 3rd rail isn't in the sky 13:15:41 <peter1138> blah 13:15:47 <peter1138> it's all horrible and i give up 13:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> plus there's currently no sane way to draw the 3rd rail 13:16:01 <peter1138> eh? 13:16:06 <andythenorth> plus, it's teeny tiny 13:16:09 <Eddi|zuHause> can't include it in the rail sprite, because it would overlap on switches 13:16:11 <andythenorth> plus, does it matter? 13:16:13 <peter1138> pikka's managed pretty well 13:16:17 <planetmaker> drawing catenary separately is done anyway. Thus separating that is at least not a graphical issue 13:16:17 *** PierreW [~ttdlx@bnc.peterbox.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:16:18 <andythenorth> plus, eh, what does it do for gameplay? 13:16:25 <Eddi|zuHause> can't include it in the base sprite because that is drawn in places which have no rails 13:16:28 <planetmaker> 3rd-rail... is integrated somehow in the tracks 13:16:41 <Eddi|zuHause> can't make left/right variation [similar to catenary] 13:16:42 <peter1138> 3rd rail is part of the track indeed 13:16:50 <peter1138> so i dunno what eddi is talking about 13:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: switches are combined by overlapping rail sprites. if the 3rd rail is hardcoded into the track sprite, the 3rd rail would cross a track 13:17:35 <andythenorth> it probably does 13:17:41 <peter1138> *shrug* 13:17:53 <peter1138> it works for pikka's 3rd rail 13:18:13 <andythenorth> hrm, yes, he's figured it out 13:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what pikka's rail does, but the one i've seen around was encoded into the trackbase, which occasionally places 3rd rail in places which have no trackbit 13:18:51 *** PierreW [~ttdlx@bnc.peterbox.net] has joined #openttd 13:19:04 <peter1138> if it's not pikka's i don't really care ;) 13:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because on 2-way-switches, the 3rd trackbit is not placed, but has a trackbase underneath it 13:19:48 <peter1138> anyway i think pikka requested that he be allowed to draw points himself, and not have the game combine them 13:19:55 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the point is, it's not enough (tm) 13:21:17 <Eddi|zuHause> that could possibly be a property of the railtype. the spriteset would have to be bigger (2^6 sprites for base and track) 13:21:43 <peter1138> nope 13:21:59 <peter1138> not quite 13:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> either let the game combine crossings, or provide all crossing sprites manually 13:22:20 <peter1138> (2^6)-1 13:22:21 <peter1138> :p 13:22:26 <Eddi|zuHause> well yes ;) 13:22:35 <planetmaker> :D 13:22:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and then add double tracks on one tile :p 13:22:58 <peter1138> shut up 13:28:17 <andythenorth> urgh 13:28:19 <andythenorth> spec paralysis 13:28:48 <andythenorth> or as I was told once, you can own 100% of a £5m company, or 10% of a £100m company 13:29:10 <andythenorth> [that is a variation on the usual version, which has 100% of £0] 13:29:50 <andythenorth> one of those two options involves a lot more crap than the others 13:30:43 <andythenorth> and really once, you've got £5m, do you care about getting £10m? 13:31:16 <andythenorth> especially given all the crap involved 13:31:35 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently there are people that do 13:31:53 <andythenorth> for those that miss the point of this little homily 13:32:04 <andythenorth> newgrf roadtypes > no newgrf roadtypes 13:33:09 <andythenorth> if you don't like what your newgrf author does with it, fire them :P 13:35:08 *** Zeknurn` [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:37:31 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:39:31 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has left #openttd [I'm done being in this room!] 13:40:16 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5153E72C.access.telenet.be] has quit [Quit: oO] 13:52:31 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-065-111.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 13:56:25 <Flygon> Was Naples a Japanese city? 13:57:28 <Rubidium> why would you think that? 13:58:29 <peter1138> you might if you didn't know it's in italy 13:58:57 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe there's another naples in japan? do you really know all cities in japan? :p 13:59:03 <Rubidium> isn't naples in Florida? 13:59:34 <Rubidium> there's a Napoli in Italy 14:00:33 <peter1138> yeah, it's awkward that we "translate" names :S 14:02:22 <Rubidium> anyhow... they don't really have a L 14:02:33 <Rubidium> so it'd rather be napori 14:02:41 <Flygon> Thanks 14:02:51 <Flygon> Rubidium: I'm playing Civilization II 14:02:58 <Flygon> I suspect I ran out of Japanese city names 14:03:50 <Celestar> after the national cities run out, Civ2 starts with Roman cities (except Rome) :P 14:04:46 <Flygon> ... 14:04:47 <Flygon> Huh 14:04:52 <Flygon> That explains a lot 14:05:08 <Flygon> Yeah, Naples is the second city, isn't it? 14:05:12 <Flygon> Whites are Russians atm 14:05:27 <Celestar> yah it is 14:05:30 <Celestar> never liked II too much 14:05:41 <Flygon> Really? 14:05:44 <Flygon> I love II 14:05:48 <Flygon> SMAC/X is better, though 14:06:54 <Celestar> IV was pretty good 14:06:56 <Celestar> SMAC? 14:07:08 <Flygon> Shame Civ II can't be ported to SMACX 14:07:10 <Flygon> Oh, SMAC 14:07:12 <Flygon> Alpha Centauri 14:07:15 <Celestar> ahh 14:07:17 <Celestar> yeah. 14:07:19 <Flygon> The 'direct' sequel to Civ II 14:07:27 <Celestar> haven't tried CIV 5 yet. 14:07:39 <Flygon> I've not played IV and V yet 14:07:43 <Flygon> Mainly from laziness 14:07:55 <Flygon> Took me years to get addicted to OpenTTD 14:08:04 <Flygon> Now I churn raging profit :P 14:08:40 <Celestar> IV was the first one I found better than CIV. way better, especially with BTS expansion 14:08:44 <Celestar> you got Steam? 14:08:49 <Flygon> I do 14:09:01 <Celestar> Civ IV is currently up for -75% including all Xpacs. 14:09:07 <Flygon> I'm also broke :p 14:09:08 <Flygon> Sorry 14:09:09 <Celestar> 7 EUR or so :P 14:09:18 <Flygon> I can't afford the 7EUR x.x 14:09:19 <Celestar> heh :D 14:09:37 <Flygon> I recommend trying out SMACX :3 14:09:44 <Flygon> Assuming you're familar enough with II 14:09:52 <Flygon> It's basically a turbocharged version of that 14:09:59 <Rubidium> Celestar: CIV, is the Civ (I) or Civ IV? 14:10:02 <Flygon> Heck, it has a few features that future Civs tended to lack 14:10:16 <Flygon> Such as 3D heightmaps (like OpenTTD) 14:10:29 <Flygon> Except it's actually rendered in 3D :D 14:11:00 <Celestar> CIV .. CIV is CIV I 14:11:05 <Flygon> It's sorta hilarious SMACX was 100% 3D, but Civ III was not at all 3D :P 14:11:23 <Celestar> I only played Alpha Centrauri 14:11:27 <Celestar> minus the r 14:12:09 <Flygon> Ah, not with the expansion pack? 14:12:13 <Celestar> nope 14:12:13 <Flygon> The pack adds a lot 14:12:30 <Celestar> I just found a disk image of RRTD :D 14:12:41 <Flygon> Though, the inclusion of a Borg inspired faction rose a few eyebrows :p 14:12:46 <Terkhen> I can recommend Civilization IV too, as long as it is the complete edition and you are not afraid of testing mods :P 14:12:57 <Celestar> Terkhen: or write your own :D 14:13:05 <Celestar> Terkhen: BTS was the last XPac I purchased 14:13:05 <Terkhen> there is even a SMAC mod for CIV 14:13:17 <Celestar> there is a Space Mod for CIV IV :D 14:13:24 <Celestar> which is quite fun, actually 14:13:44 <Terkhen> Celestar: I'm usually happy with downloading existing mods and fiddling with their code a bit :P 14:13:52 <Celestar> Mylon Mod :D 14:13:59 <Flygon> When peeps say 'space mod', I think of Mega-lo-Mania @_@ 14:14:04 <Flygon> ...MLM was odd 14:14:09 <Celestar> haha 14:14:17 <Celestar> it was one friggen awesome game 14:15:48 *** KritiK [~Maxim@0001264a.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 14:16:08 <Terkhen> I play either a mod that starts with a word that I don't want to mention here or Fall from Heaven 2 14:16:15 <Terkhen> :P 14:16:39 <Flygon> Celestar has played Mega-lo-Mania? 14:16:44 <Celestar> ofc 14:16:47 <Flygon> I love you 14:16:50 <Celestar> about 20 years ago :P 14:16:59 <Flygon> Amiga or Mega Drive? 14:17:12 <Celestar> Amiga. and PC later on 14:17:15 <Flygon> I got the Mega Drive cart lying around somewhere... 14:17:24 <Flygon> Ah, I tried to use the DOS version... 14:17:27 <Flygon> Went horribly 14:17:34 <Flygon> Ended up just going back to the Mega Drive :p 14:17:48 <Flygon> Nukes are annoying as *$(# when you lack a mouse, though 14:21:16 <Flygon> As well as launching nukes on SDI's... makes you wish you had the ability to launch multiple nukes at once 14:21:49 <Flygon> And that SDI were a passive rather than active defense... a remake of MLM could fix a lot of gameplay detriments @_@ 14:22:40 <Celestar> make one 14:23:26 <Flygon> Ehh, it's been done 14:23:42 <Flygon> Could use better art and a lot of improvement, but it's been done 14:26:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:31:36 *** Biolunar_ [mahdi@blfd-4d083c65.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: My life for Aiur] 14:39:15 <Celestar> hm.. 14:40:02 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:40:27 <Celestar> are there trams in the default set meanwhile? 14:40:28 <Flygon> We welcome the new Japanese city of Cunaxa :p 14:40:32 <Celestar> zBase 14:40:38 <Flygon> Don't think so 14:41:46 <Alberth> nope, because they are not in the original base set 14:42:33 <Flygon> It'll never be padded with trams? 14:43:12 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.16.175.97] has joined #openttd 14:44:26 <Alberth> my crystal ball is quite unclear there :) 14:44:35 <Celestar> buy a better one 14:45:41 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 14:46:12 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:5401:908d:dafa:3661] has joined #openttd 14:46:28 <Celestar> do newgrfs support high-resolution 32bpp sprites meanwhile 14:46:47 <Alberth> yes 14:47:08 <Alberth> zBase is a base set NewGRF :p 14:47:36 <Alberth> but regular NewGRF works too, even for high-resolution 8bpp 14:51:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: NewGRFs support high-res and 32bpp independent of each other 14:53:49 *** andythenorth [~Andy@2002:4d66:7022:0:5401:908d:dafa:3661] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:57:52 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 14:58:40 <andythenorth> hmm 14:58:42 <andythenorth> FIRS time 14:59:25 <andythenorth> what shall I call the dock industry? 14:59:34 <Alberth> harbour? 14:59:49 <andythenorth> port, harbour, dock, import / export terminal 14:59:50 <andythenorth> wharf 14:59:56 <andythenorth> shipping terminal 15:00:01 <Alberth> +1 ! 15:00:05 <andythenorth> to all? 15:00:07 <Eddi|zuHause> one of those :) 15:00:16 <Alberth> just the last one, imho 15:00:17 <andythenorth> some might be confusing with existing 'dock' ? 15:00:34 <andythenorth> quay 15:00:35 <andythenorth> mole 15:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> import/export terminal may work better in a landlocked map 15:01:08 <Alberth> wharf sounds good too :p 15:01:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (and a placement rule "near large body of water, or near map edge") 15:01:23 <Alberth> it probably doesn't mean anything :) 15:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> wharf is rather where ships are built 15:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that has nothing to do with import/export 15:01:38 <Alberth> oh, it does 15:01:40 <andythenorth> not in UK english 15:01:47 <andythenorth> wharf is a quay 15:01:52 <andythenorth> which is where ships berth 15:02:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: can you find the newgrf var for 'large body of water'? o_O 15:02:15 <andythenorth> I would like a new pony please :P 15:02:21 <andythenorth> use the pathfinder to count num. tiles 15:02:23 <andythenorth> or something 15:02:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: "at least 200 square-tiles"? 15:03:16 <andythenorth> you want me to spiral out in a tile var checkw when building? 15:03:22 <andythenorth> or use a lot of magic tile FF? 15:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a possibility 15:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i guess then "wharf" and "Werft" are somewhat false friends 15:04:27 <peter1138> should be an internal function 15:05:17 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 15:05:20 *** Celestar [~vici@dslb-092-075-040-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:10:46 <andythenorth> how to get distance to map edge? 15:10:56 <peter1138> who cares? 15:11:08 <peter1138> on a 2048x2048 map? :p 15:11:11 <andythenorth> good point 15:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> coordinates and map_x/map_y global variables 15:11:31 <andythenorth> fiddly is enemy of done 15:12:27 <peter1138> wah, why can i have gnome 2 15:13:00 <peter1138> gnome 3 is like ripping out all newgrf support in openttd 15:18:23 <andythenorth> sounds...cleansing 15:20:29 <peter1138> sounds like a user experience nightmare 15:20:38 <peter1138> i'm sure it's lovely if you're coming from it as a new user 15:20:52 <peter1138> but so much stuff has changed or simply gone 15:21:24 *** Markavian` [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 15:28:50 *** Markavian [~Markavian@78-105-168-146.zone3.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:33:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I need to tell the makefile that firs.pnml location is moved, can't see where to do that :) 15:35:18 <andythenorth> solved :) 15:37:38 <andythenorth> herp, what do I call the file that sets up all the cpp #includes ? 15:37:50 <andythenorth> what is it? Config? Manifest? 15:37:59 <andythenorth> project definition? 15:39:22 <Alberth> magic? 15:39:38 <andythenorth> magic :P 15:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> "master control program" 15:45:04 <andythenorth> very doctor who 15:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's actually from tron, but whatever 15:46:35 <Flygon> Y'know what'd be awesome 15:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20091224040955/disney/images/e/ef/300px-Master_control_program.jpg 15:46:44 <Flygon> A Doctor Who-Tron-Star Trek crossover 15:46:57 <Flygon> Where the Ship's computer has gone nut 15:46:57 <Eddi|zuHause> a Doctor Tron Trek? 15:48:20 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-094-223-106-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:53:38 <andythenorth> http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/firs/repository/revisions/564a67d5fae4 15:53:43 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ :P 15:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> ... right 15:55:49 <andythenorth> my python step is getting slow 15:55:52 <andythenorth> 14s 15:56:56 <peter1138> hmm, is it supported for station layouts to use tile layouts >= 8 15:56:57 <peter1138> ? 15:58:07 <peter1138> looks like it's not actually forbidden 15:59:01 <peter1138> only the newgrf spec says the tile must be 0, 2, 4 or 6 15:59:35 <peter1138> but as it's not enforced, you can actually use any value up to 255 15:59:52 <peter1138> which means that CB14 may not really be necessary in most cases 16:00:08 <peter1138> hmm 16:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never really understood this part of the specs 16:03:44 <peter1138> which bit? 16:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the station tile part 16:04:06 <peter1138> which bit of it? heh 16:05:20 <Stimrol> translation question, what are those --> STR_GOAL_QUESTION_BUTTON go and start and so on? 16:06:45 <Stimrol> and how can I get them to appear? 16:09:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: Gamescripts/Goalscripts may ask the player a question like "do you accept this task?" 16:10:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: possibly the tutorial script/scenario may use these, not sure 16:11:05 <Stimrol> Okey thanks, had never seen this button in the goal scripts. apperantly it has not been in the ones I have used, thanks :) 16:11:57 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, should BigGUI come with a bigger spritefont? 16:12:29 <peter1138> no 16:12:31 <peter1138> it's not supported 16:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the problem? 16:13:49 <peter1138> the height is a fixed value, not determined by the height of the sprite font 16:14:06 <Eddi|zuHause> but... why? 16:15:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 16:16:07 <peter1138> nobody's done it? 16:16:29 <peter1138> interesting news though 16:17:34 <peter1138> remember stbr2.png? 16:18:35 <Rubidium> is that the stone bridge over the part of the railway station without the building? 16:18:42 <peter1138> yeah 16:18:48 <peter1138> well it doesn't glitch anymore 16:19:44 <Eddi|zuHause> spritesorting/boundingbox fix? 16:21:29 <peter1138> oops 16:21:43 <peter1138> i built a bridge through one of mb's glass canopies 16:22:57 <Rubidium> what? didn't he set the right object property right? 16:23:14 <peter1138> the one that doesn't exist? no 16:24:16 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: png or it didn't happen! :p 16:24:17 <peter1138> tell you what though 16:24:26 <peter1138> the gantry on that default waypoint is bloody high 16:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i mostly need bridges over tram/bus stations 16:27:17 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:30:47 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and stations on bridgeheads :p 16:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> station on bridgehead, signal on bridge, junction on other bridgehead: epicly compact city station!! 16:31:30 <peter1138> well 16:32:05 <peter1138> or should i say 16:32:05 <peter1138> hmm 16:33:51 <Eddi|zuHause> only further improvement beyond that would be: station on bridge/bridgehead, signal inbetween tiles, junction on bridge/bridgehead 16:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> but signals inbetween tiles is a major savegame conversion headache 16:34:33 <Eddi|zuHause> also waypoints need to be inbetween tiles 16:35:19 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:35:38 <peter1138> waypoints are full on station tiles these days 16:36:20 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but they occupy a full tile and can't be on diagonals -> they are awkward to place in tight spaces 16:37:05 <peter1138> pfft 16:37:17 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 16:37:32 <peter1138> q 16:37:50 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: stations of bridgeheads are 'easy'. Level road crossing on bridge head... that's going to get interesting 16:38:15 <peter1138> interestingly waypoints are stations in the code and spec 16:38:21 <peter1138> but they're built by different routines 16:39:05 <peter1138> notably CBID_STATION_TILE_LAYOUT is't called 16:39:48 <peter1138> *isn't 16:39:54 <peter1138> and availability isn't tested 16:40:16 <Eddi|zuHause> there was something totally awkward with track reservation if you tried to sort trains on platforms via waypoints. the pathfinder would not consider the platform occupancy, so the train was stuck waiting for free path, because it wouldn't consider the empty platform as "shortest" path 16:42:53 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 16:44:20 <peter1138> NOT_REACHED() is a noop on release builds, right? 16:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem was that the pathfinder quit after reaching the waypoint tile, but the track reservation continued until the next signal 16:44:32 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: yes, should be 16:44:52 <peter1138> how can the track reversation continue if the PF quit? 16:45:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the reservation has a special mode where it just randomly continues until it finds a signal 16:45:24 <Stimrol> Is it a error that one ship depot is counted as 4 tiles 16:45:31 <Stimrol> in the infrastructure 16:45:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: no, that's intended 16:46:16 <Stimrol> is it so it costs more then? 16:46:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: like a switch is counted as 4 tiles, and a 3-way switch is more like 9 tiles or so 16:46:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: yes, that's the intention 16:46:36 <Stimrol> ok nice 16:48:09 <Stimrol> thanks 16:51:11 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-208-105-82-227.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 16:51:48 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: It's not random, it does search for the proper destination, but it will only do that for the best first section, not all possible first sections. 16:53:01 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: right, but the point was, it doesn't do that for the pathfinder, so the train got stuck waiting for free platform when another platform was available 16:54:07 <peter1138> the reservation randomly continues? 16:56:09 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: it tries to figure out what the next stop is 16:56:57 <Eddi|zuHause> http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Cottbus%20Transport,%2027.%20Dez%201930.png <-- this was the situation 16:57:53 <Eddi|zuHause> the train wants to go to the goods waypoint, but it won't choose the third platform, because the occupied-platform penalties are not counted 16:58:44 <supermop> hey eddi 16:59:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i think that was a CargoD_e_st savegame 16:59:17 <supermop> reading you string of posts about double tracks in the dutch stations thread 16:59:35 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-065-111.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 16:59:45 <supermop> what would make more sense would be just drastically breaking the scales of everything 17:00:23 <Eddi|zuHause> as if scales aren't already broken enough? 17:00:26 <supermop> draw a track on a tile so that it takes up most of the full tile, etc, making everything bigger, things glitching 17:00:32 <supermop> etc etc 17:00:35 <supermop> hehe 17:00:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and since one does "one post" constitute a "string"? 17:00:49 <Eddi|zuHause> *since when 17:01:05 <supermop> oh whoops 17:02:01 *** chester_ [~chester@95-24-10-17.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 17:02:49 <peter1138> there was some guy who advocated multiple tracks on a tile a while back 17:03:07 <supermop> well you'd have to ignore any compatibility with other grfs, but if one dedicated soul chose to play with an entire ecosystem of consistently out of scale sprites it could work 17:03:36 <supermop> and have the dedication to make all his bridges two levels off the ground instead of one 17:04:15 <supermop> actually lets say three, be cause that guy probably wants his bridge decks to be 8 pixels thick anyway 17:04:19 <Eddi|zuHause> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1060310#p1060310 <-- anyway, i counted 15 trackbits on that tile, plus 1 bit for the orientation, plus one bit for switching the current single-track-layout to this one 17:05:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and then the reservation and movement pattern problems 17:05:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and when you are allowed to place signals where 17:07:04 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 17:10:40 <Stimrol> {WHITE}{1:CURRENCY_LONG}/yr ({0:COMMA}) -- does /yr mean per year so I could translate it to per year? 17:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 17:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but i think the official symbol should be "/a" 17:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> (a for "anno") 17:16:40 <Stimrol> could be, but I am no english speaker so I could not be sure. I just thougt that it would fit better for my language to say "per year" instead of /yr or the same for my language 17:17:08 <peter1138> as "anno" isn't an english word, that wouldn't make sense 17:17:20 <peter1138> annum, perhaps 17:17:39 <peter1138> but "/a" is just asking for "wtf is /a?" 17:18:25 <Eddi|zuHause> using "per anno" or "p.a." is rather common in german 17:18:36 <peter1138> it's "per annum" in english 17:19:07 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe germans are just failing at latin, anyway :) 17:20:36 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-094-223-106-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 17:21:22 <Stimrol> found this for abbrevations -->https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_abbreviations 17:21:50 <Stimrol> it is p.a. in english according to this 17:22:26 <Stimrol> so I should maybe file a bug or just leave it be :) 17:22:31 <Pinkbeast> I would not use p.a. other than in a formal context where the meaning could be inferred. 17:22:54 <Pinkbeast> /yr would be a much more obvious expression to use. 17:23:54 <peter1138> yeah, let's use /yr 17:24:15 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conversion_of_units#Time 17:25:58 <Eddi|zuHause> gives "a, y or yr" 17:26:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's on wikipedia, it must be true 17:28:35 <Rubidium> but *only* if someone that is not related to the subject has written that about it 17:31:15 <Stimrol> I would love if my university would consider wikipedia a valid source :) 17:33:19 <Rubidium> Stimrol: those wiki pages are littered with sources, so just use those in your papers instead 17:34:06 <Rubidium> esp. useful if they are archaic books ;) 17:34:12 <Stimrol> true, that is what I would do :) 17:34:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: make sure you rephrase things in your own words, because it's pretty obvios when reading that a paragraph is just copy-pasted from wikipedia 17:34:41 <Stimrol> also true 17:37:56 <Stimrol> ubs I chrashed citybuilder GS while using it along translation, don't know how 17:51:13 *** appe2 [~funp@h-153-209.a147.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:51:19 *** appe2 is now known as NGC3982-2 17:51:24 <NGC3982-2> Evening. 17:51:35 <Alberth> evenink 17:51:53 <NGC3982-2> What's up? :) 17:52:11 <Alberth> it's Saturday evening 17:53:19 <NGC3982-2> O'rly. 17:53:43 <NGC3982-2> I took quiet some time, but i think i have actually managed to administrate a >1024^2 ECS game. 17:56:13 *** dot_ [~dothacker@cpe-74-67-18-57.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 17:57:04 <NGC3982-2> And that's about what i can handle. 17:57:15 <NGC3982-2> It works badly, but it seems to ..not go bancrupt. 17:57:47 <NGC3982-2> http://i.imgur.com/vn9a0.png 17:57:49 <NGC3982-2> For instance. 17:57:49 <NGC3982-2> :D 17:58:22 <Alberth> oh dear, bidirectional everywhere? 17:59:21 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4d083c65.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 18:00:49 <NGC3982-2> I don't even have a clue what general direction the trains in that intersection uses 18:01:02 <NGC3982-2> i just put it there whilst in panic. 18:01:43 <peter1138> i use bidi everywhere 18:02:00 <peter1138> not with layouts like that though 18:02:13 <Alberth> and your trains don't go in weird directions constantly? :o 18:02:31 <NGC3982-2> Some trains needs to go both ways in that section 18:02:46 *** dot__ [~dothacker@cpe-67-248-40-38.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:02:47 <NGC3982-2> so i used bidirectional. Though, i almost never use that otherwise. 18:03:02 <Alberth> sounds like no signal would be better than :p 18:03:20 <NGC3982-2> There are very few instances where a few extra lines of rail and one-ways doesn't pay off. 18:03:21 <NGC3982-2> Hehe 18:06:44 *** fonsinchen [~fonsinche@dslb-094-223-106-080.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:34 <Alberth> especially early in the game I often have a piece one bi-directional track when there is no room for a second track (I try to minimize terraforming and removing houses etc) 18:08:07 <Alberth> or when there are only a few trains running at the tracks 18:10:35 <NGC3982-2> That's why i used it here 18:10:37 <peter1138> oh bah 18:10:55 <peter1138> so allowing to build bridges over stations is easy 18:10:58 <NGC3982-2> Since early ECS and limited resources made terraforming and removing stuff expencive. 18:11:03 <peter1138> allowing to build stations under bridges, not so 18:12:43 <michi_cc> peter1138: Why's that? End result is the same isn't it? 18:15:02 <peter1138> code-wise it's way more complex 18:15:07 <peter1138> but not impossible 18:15:24 <Stimrol> where can you change speed of ocean, there is translation for that? 18:17:22 <Alberth> speed of ocean? 18:18:05 <peter1138> heh 18:18:11 <peter1138> what's the text? 18:19:39 <Stimrol> STR_PURCHASE_INFO_SPEED_OCEAN 18:19:46 <Stimrol> {BLACK}Speed on ocean: {GOLD}{VELOCITY} 18:20:02 <Stimrol> maybe this is a setting that can be made availible for newgrfs ships 18:20:03 <peter1138> that's the speed of a ship when it's on an ocean tile 18:20:26 <peter1138> yes, default ships don't differentiate iirc 18:20:51 <Stimrol> FISH dont either it seems 18:21:15 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 18:21:48 *** St3f [~Anonymous@5ED29E55.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 18:22:10 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it was discussed once that FISH should make such distinctions 18:22:58 <peter1138> FISH 2 does 18:29:00 <Stimrol> thanks peter, found it :) 18:46:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r24887 /trunk/src/lang (13 files) (2013-01-05 18:46:13 UTC) 18:46:33 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:46:34 <DorpsGek> simplified_chinese - 1 changes by chenwt0315 18:46:35 <DorpsGek> danish - 13 changes by Elias 18:46:36 <DorpsGek> esperanto - 25 changes by ernie13 18:46:37 <DorpsGek> greek - 1 changes by Rubidium 18:46:38 <DorpsGek> hebrew - 19 changes by naf869 18:46:39 <DorpsGek> icelandic - 109 changes by Stimrol 18:46:40 <DorpsGek> indonesian - 26 changes by H2 18:46:41 <DorpsGek> korean - 6 changes by telk5093 18:46:42 <DorpsGek> luxembourgish - 25 changes by Phreeze 18:46:43 <DorpsGek> polish - 2 changes by wojteks86 18:46:44 <DorpsGek> serbian - 5 changes by voodoo84 18:46:45 <DorpsGek> swedish - 16 changes by spacejens 18:46:46 <DorpsGek> turkish - 17 changes by kutzun 18:48:07 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@177.16.175.97] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:52:11 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r24888 trunk/src/lang/icelandic.txt (2013-01-05 18:52:05 UTC) 18:52:12 <DorpsGek> -Fix: broken language file 18:54:10 <Eddi|zuHause> new series of "failure to validate language file"? 18:54:28 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-130.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 18:56:13 <Stimrol> how can I fix that? 18:56:18 <Stimrol> or find what is broken 18:56:49 <frosch123> -STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_DELIVERED_GENERAL :{ORANGE}{STRING}{GREEN} {G kominn komin komið} 18:56:50 <frosch123> +STR_TOWN_VIEW_CARGO_FOR_TOWNGROWTH_DELIVERED_GENERAL :{ORANGE}{STRING}{GREEN} kominn 18:57:00 <frosch123> what string would the gender refer to? 18:57:13 <Stimrol> Ahh this was a test with gender, let me fix it back 18:57:16 <frosch123> maybe you would have needed {G 0 kominn komin komið} 18:57:40 <frosch123> as the helptext says, {G} refers to the next string parameter 18:57:43 <frosch123> but here it is at the end 18:59:26 <Stimrol> does it auto change back? 18:59:36 <Stimrol> so the error is gone? 18:59:44 <frosch123> rb changed it 19:00:12 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has joined #openttd 19:00:20 <Stimrol> is it okay if I try this again with your sugestion {G 0 ... 19:00:32 <frosch123> no idea what you try to do :) 19:01:31 <Stimrol> probably wont work, because I was trying testing if there was a gender on cargo that could be used 19:02:36 <Stimrol> because water and food is not the same gender 19:02:53 <Rubidium> oh... missed the {STRING} in there. Yesterday (or at least this week) there were a couple of :{COLOUR}{G x y z} strings in some language (where cases should've been used). Thought this was one as well 19:04:23 <michi_cc> Stimrol: It should work as long as you also set a gender for the cargo strings. 19:05:52 <Stimrol> how do I set a gender for cargo instead of like change something because the gender is female? 19:06:30 <frosch123> you select it in the dropdown left of the string 19:06:36 <frosch123> (iirc) 19:06:42 *** Snail [~jacopocol@cpe-68-175-24-89.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Snail] 19:07:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you put "{G=f}cargo name", and then "{CARGO} {G bla-m bla-f}" into the other strings 19:07:22 <frosch123> not in wt3 afaik :) 19:07:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i never used wt3 :) 19:08:23 <Stimrol> would be interesting to try this 19:09:06 <Stimrol> so then the other one would be like this {G 0 kominn komin komið} 19:09:29 <Stimrol> I was thinking of water and food in the desert when I did this 19:09:42 <frosch123> yes, if the string with the gender is the first parameter in the string 19:11:01 <peter1138> er. whoops... 19:12:47 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/stbr3.png 19:12:51 <peter1138> not quite right 19:13:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :p 19:13:16 <frosch123> better than in the other direction 19:13:22 <peter1138> hehe 19:13:35 <peter1138> it's cos bridges go higher than the highest tile height. oh well 19:14:30 <Stimrol> the final string is then "Vatn komið" because water in icelandic is non-gender and "Matur kominn" because food is male gender 19:14:40 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: just make 0 mean "no bridge allowed"? 19:15:03 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, then i need to add a load more tests for 0 19:15:09 <frosch123> Stimrol: you need to set the gender in the "Vatn" and "Matur" strings then 19:15:21 <frosch123> using the dropdown on the left of the translation 19:15:31 <frosch123> "All" means no gender for some reason only tb knows 19:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: also consider more-heightlevels-patch (although i vaguely remember that it put a max bridge height in somewhere) 19:16:01 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that's precisely why i'm using MAX_TILE_HEIGHT 19:16:14 <peter1138> but + 2 is needed, not + 1 19:16:36 <Stimrol> frosch123, then that would be "{G=m}matur" 19:16:57 <Stimrol> I tryed the dropdown and that always autochanged back for everything 19:16:59 *** Superuser [~root@cust-120-96.on4.ontelecoms.gr] has joined #openttd 19:17:14 <frosch123> also when you click on save? 19:17:29 *** Superuser [~root@cust-120-96.on4.ontelecoms.gr] has quit [] 19:17:31 <Stimrol> yes did that when I was trying this for delivered 19:21:00 <frosch123> Stimrol: works for me, i changed STR_QUANTITY_FOOD to karlkyn 19:21:08 <frosch123> selected in dropdown, pressed save 19:21:56 <frosch123> ah, while it displays a dropdown for editing, the history at the bottom does indeed say "{G=karlkyn}" 19:22:12 <Stimrol> ok now I understand, I used it like save for each, of course 19:22:48 <Stimrol> but should be {G=m} 19:23:01 <frosch123> no idea which of those is m :) 19:23:16 <frosch123> "karlkyn" "kvenkyn" "hvorugkyn" are my chioces :) 19:23:28 <Stimrol> that meand m, f, n 19:23:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "##gender karlkyn kvenkyn hvorugkyn" <-- so no "m f n" available 19:24:32 *** dadymax [~dady_max@193.169.220.2] has joined #openttd 19:25:04 <dadymax> Hello all. I just want to post link to tt-forums and ask what you (great all :) ) think about 19:25:04 <dadymax> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=1060378#p1060378 19:25:08 <Stimrol> but will it have an error in the file, because there is nothing the openttd only know what m,f,n means, not karlkyn,kvenkyn,hvorugkyn 19:25:35 <Eddi|zuHause> openttd will know whatever is in the ##gender line, nothing else 19:26:21 <frosch123> http://devs.openttd.org/~frosch/wt3.png <- so Eddi knows what we talk about :) 19:26:27 <Stimrol> because {G=karlkyn} makes no sense for openttd while {G=m} does 19:26:40 <dadymax> and another question: what IRC client is good novadays? I use mirc 10 years ago but maybe something better created? ) 19:27:04 <frosch123> Stimrol: no, ottd does not know about "m", "f" or "n" 19:27:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: i think you have a misunderstanding of how it works internally 19:27:18 <frosch123> ottd knows about 0, 1, 2, 3 and such :) 19:27:45 <peter1138> what about strgen? 19:27:57 <Stimrol> then it wil know that both {g=m} and g=karlkyn both are 0 19:28:06 <frosch123> there is no "m" 19:28:17 <frosch123> every language has a number of genders 19:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: no it will not, because there's no "m" in "##genders" for icelandig 19:28:24 <frosch123> it does not matter what they are called to ottd 19:29:27 <peter1138> has someone translated male/female/neuter? 19:30:00 <frosch123> also various languages use gender for non-gendery stuff :) 19:30:09 <Eddi|zuHause> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/2033/ 19:30:11 <frosch123> i believe german and french have a plural gender or so 19:30:16 <Stimrol> I am talking about the way you write it, the history show {G=karlkyn} if I was writing english the history would show {G=m}, just was a little worried that it would make error 19:30:19 <peter1138> catalan.txt:##gender Masculin Femenin 19:30:21 <peter1138> croatian.txt:##gender male female middle 19:30:23 <peter1138> norwegian_bokmal.txt:##gender masculine feminine neuter 19:30:25 <peter1138> serbian.txt:##gender muški şenski srednji 19:30:28 <peter1138> dear oh dear! 19:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: no, that is correct 19:30:59 <peter1138> icelandic.txt:##gender karlkyn kvenkyn hvorugkyn 19:31:01 <peter1138> but yeah 19:31:10 <peter1138> because that line has those labels, you need to use them 19:31:33 <Eddi|zuHause> src/lang/czech.txt:##gender m f n map mnp fp np <-- not sure how many genders you can have in total :p 19:31:58 <Stimrol> I think some language have more than 3 :) 19:32:11 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:32:13 <Stimrol> but thanks folks, I am going to try this 19:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, czech apparently has 7 :) 19:33:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and afrikaans has only "male" gender? how does that work :) 19:33:31 <peter1138> most of the time i only see these genders set up in the header 19:33:40 <peter1138> never actually in any translation 19:34:17 <Stimrol> one side track, I see that the translation is r24887, but download on openttd is r24886 why is that? 19:34:29 *** jcurran [6161a6a1@ircip4.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 19:34:40 <peter1138> czech only uses f, fp, m and n 19:34:52 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i added the "plural" gender to german, and genders in general to the FIRS translation, because the malformed industry creation messages drove me crazy 19:35:23 <peter1138> Stimrol, try again, you'll get 24888 19:35:55 *** jcurran [6161a6a1@ircip4.mibbit.com] has quit [] 19:36:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: it takes some time until the nightly compilation run finished 19:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: it doesn't compile for every version 19:37:27 <Stimrol> thanks again, worked 19:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone reviewed the german translation for TaI yet? 19:38:40 <Stimrol> and while I am at it, I am still missing Ubuntu 12.10 for the stable one in the download menu :) 19:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> nobody uses that :p 19:39:11 <frosch123> Stimrol: is it available for the beta? 19:39:51 <frosch123> oh, i guess the 12.x will do 19:39:52 <Stimrol> no 19:40:08 <frosch123> you mean 12.10 is more like 13.x ? :p 19:40:44 <Stimrol> I always get an error while installing the deb file for 12.4 so I have to use the .tar one 19:40:46 <Stimrol> :) 19:43:03 <andythenorth> herp 19:43:04 <andythenorth> so 19:43:13 <andythenorth> no pokka 19:43:54 <Stimrol> call the ambulance andythenorth north is gone crazy 19:45:41 *** dadymax [~dady_max@193.169.220.2] has left #openttd [] 19:46:48 <frosch123> andythenorth: maybe a bit early :) 19:47:32 <andythenorth> good point 19:48:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: got any new specs to read? 19:48:23 <frosch123> not yet 19:58:33 * andythenorth works on a port in that case 20:01:14 *** Pensacola [~quassel@h220216.upc-h.chello.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 20:01:40 <NGC3982-2> Jazz and ECS goes together like lesbians and beer. 20:05:15 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:15:07 *** drac_boy [~drac_boy@modemcable105.141-163-184.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #openttd 20:15:10 <drac_boy> hi 20:20:20 <andythenorth> ho 20:20:26 * andythenorth plays with peter1138's server 20:22:22 *** catpants [~catpants@174-25-48-78.ptld.qwest.net] has joined #openttd 20:23:19 <drac_boy> is the lumber mill's tree removal behaviour fixed or can you vary its radius and clearcutting speed? 20:25:02 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 20:25:34 <frosch123> you can slow the cutting speed 20:25:37 <frosch123> rest is fixed 20:26:11 <frosch123> you can make it cut trees only in october and such :p 20:27:46 <drac_boy> heh seasonal cutting? hmm interesting 20:28:03 <drac_boy> thanks 20:28:33 <frosch123> well, usually seasonal stuff is crappy for gameplay :p 20:30:25 <drac_boy> depends how you make it I guess 20:30:37 <andythenorth> rails have a clearance value, tram tracks don't :P 20:30:50 <Stimrol> in translation, when is CARGO_SINGULAR used? 20:30:53 <drac_boy> if its an indstry that still goes on a slow scale (eg logging still happens during wet spring but only very close by) thats still ok for gameplay... 20:31:06 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think either of these do 20:31:14 <drac_boy> but for something like wheat crops it indeed would not work because you only get a lot of it one or two months per year! 20:31:15 <Stimrol> acceptes, and require both use CARGO_PLURAL 20:31:17 <andythenorth> rals do 20:31:20 <andythenorth> rails * 20:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: where? 20:31:33 <andythenorth> whenever removing track 20:31:37 <andythenorth> it's a source of income 20:31:38 <drac_boy> I never liked some of the custom (even FIRS) vectors for this exact reason 20:31:47 <andythenorth> useful when losing by some small amount 20:31:48 <drac_boy> what you think of what I said frosch123? 20:31:54 <andythenorth> drac_boy: wtf are you talking about? 20:31:55 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, i misunderstood your word "clearance" then 20:32:31 <andythenorth> clearance / removal /s 20:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, because trams are treated internally as roads, and nobody bothered to allow making the cost negative or so 20:32:35 <andythenorth> sorry 20:32:43 <andythenorth> funny that :) 20:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i understood "clearance" as "height restriction" 20:33:11 <andythenorth> silly language I was born with 20:33:14 <andythenorth> born into 20:33:28 <andythenorth> drac_boy: are you reporting a FIRS bug? 20:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe "clearing value" might have been a more correct word, but i don't think i understand your language better than you do :p 20:33:52 <drac_boy> no..just talking to frosch :p 20:34:17 <Stimrol> like STR_CARGO_SINGULAR_DIAMOND vs STR_CARGO_PLURAL_DIAMONDS 20:35:09 <Alberth> probably 1 diamond versus more diamonds 20:35:23 <andythenorth> drac_boy: sounded like a bug to me 20:35:26 <andythenorth> broken production 20:35:36 <drac_boy> andythenorth actually its standard 20:35:37 <andythenorth> can you reproduce it ? 20:35:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: "1 Passenger" vs "2 Passengers" 20:36:03 <drac_boy> industry produces zero dring winter and spring .. produce some during summer then goes dead again... but that seem to be alike to the real industry counterpart after all 20:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: "1 crate of goods" vs "2 crates of goods" 20:36:10 <drac_boy> dring=during* 20:36:10 <Stimrol> Alberth, then they would just use {P "" s} not a whole string for it 20:36:36 *** RavingManiac [~RavingMan@182.55.106.160] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 20:36:37 <andythenorth> drac_boy: that is definitely a bug 20:36:38 <peter1138> Stimrol, there's no number 20:36:46 <drac_boy> but anyway that was only part of the actual topic 20:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Stimrol: no, because the order of evaluation is backwards 20:36:50 <andythenorth> would you mind posting a savegame in the FIRS development thread? 20:36:56 <andythenorth> that's a serious bug 20:37:00 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: that's not it I fear 20:37:02 <drac_boy> andythenorth what did I said? I'm only talking to frosch 20:37:15 <Rubidium> singular seems to be only used in the subsidy window 20:37:16 <andythenorth> yes but it would be helpful to fix this 20:37:45 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:37:51 <drac_boy> you also fix ecs and pbi too? :P 20:37:53 <drac_boy> heh 20:38:09 <andythenorth> no 20:38:14 <andythenorth> but I can fix FIRS 20:38:34 <peter1138> Rubidium, got to love hysterical raisins 20:40:02 <Rubidium> the singular form seems to be used in subsidy news only 20:40:36 <Rubidium> (award and creation only) 20:41:09 <drac_boy> btw stimrol how're you anyway? 20:41:16 <Stimrol> I am fine of course 20:41:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think i remember the wording of these things completely wrong then 20:41:40 <peter1138> First {passenger} service from ... 20:42:00 <peter1138> it's because it uses the word "service" 20:42:02 <drac_boy> nice 20:43:00 <Stimrol> thanks Eddi|zuHause and Rubidium 20:44:04 <andythenorth> peter1138: you're recently beating pikka and scuddles in this game you're not playing ;) 20:44:22 <peter1138> cool 20:44:46 <peter1138> hmm, so 20:44:49 <drac_boy> heh 20:44:52 <peter1138> TILE_AREA_LOOP 20:46:02 <andythenorth> drac_boy: any joy reproducing that bug? :( 20:46:37 <drac_boy> andythenorth no idea will have to check a random singleplayer game on other computer when I feel like it 20:46:50 <andythenorth> ok thanks 20:48:02 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: trying to implement a 60+ variable for "number of water tiles in <radius>? 20:48:28 <peter1138> no 20:55:32 <Rubidium> peter1138: I'd implement it in the T-Ford colour selection method ;) 20:56:01 <Rubidium> it can be any radius, as long as the radius is 0! 20:56:12 <peter1138> would you? 20:56:15 <peter1138> go on then 20:56:20 <peter1138> cos i'm not doing anything liek that :) 20:57:30 <peter1138> might be easier to loop through the station layout separately :S 20:58:20 *** Pikka [~Octomom@d58-106-50-91.rdl801.qld.optusnet.com.au] has joined #openttd 20:59:42 <andythenorth> pinky ponk! 21:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: i wanted to ask you about TaI and german translation 21:01:33 <Pikka> the industries, eddi? 21:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, mostly those 21:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> because back in PBI times, the "industry opens" messages annoyed me really badly 21:02:32 <Eddi|zuHause> because all the genders were wrong 21:02:45 <Pikka> the whole grf is being redone from scratch, I'll send you the texts when I have some and you can translate them for me :) 21:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> and nowadays, NewGRF translations support genders 21:03:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs some magical gender translation table and stuff 21:03:44 *** aaa [5c713530@ircip1.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 21:04:02 <aaa> 1 21:04:13 <Eddi|zuHause> 42 21:04:50 <aaa> I need flash version of this game 21:04:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: you're still on nfo? 21:04:56 <drac_boy> why aaa? 21:04:59 <__ln__> no you don't 21:05:02 <aaa> :) 21:05:21 <Pikka> yes eddi 21:05:29 <aaa> To run it on my web 21:05:43 <drac_boy> aaa what makes you think a *desktop* game with libs can suddenly run online silly 21:05:45 <drac_boy> :) 21:06:09 <Zuu> There is a javascript version, but it is quite slow. 21:06:17 *** aaa [5c713530@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [] 21:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess that settles that :p 21:08:00 *** Flygon [Flygon@218-214-18-147.people.net.au] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:09:12 <andythenorth> Pikka: TaI looks good on that server game we had with peterer 21:09:23 <andythenorth> after 100 years or whatever 21:09:43 <Pikka> the towns? yes, I think they're notbad 21:10:00 <Pikka> pubbegone needs to be even more aggressive though :) and/or have more variants 21:10:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: here's some of the magic that later got into FIRS to support genders: http://users.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/firs_german_gender_2.diff 21:10:55 <andythenorth> Pikka: a lot of the roadtype combinatorial graphics crap could be composited at compile time btw 21:11:10 <andythenorth> a standardised spritesheet would be useful... 21:11:14 <Pikka> sure, if you're into that sort of thing 21:11:27 <Pikka> like I said, it's iterative... it sounds like a lot of sprites but it really isn't 21:11:51 <andythenorth> I drew trails once, it's not a lot 21:12:10 <andythenorth> if spritegroups could be used for the drawing, combinatorial crap could be done at run time 21:13:18 <andythenorth> hrm trails is 18 sprites, including turny-roundy-loop nonsenses 21:13:28 <St3f> i installed the debian squeeze openttd but i can't find the openttd.cfg, do i have to make it manually? 21:13:49 * andythenorth needs to put the Paper cargo back into FIRS 21:13:53 <andythenorth> what larks 21:13:59 <drac_boy> st3f..they moved it out of the folder for some reason I don't understand....so afaik yes you do have to make one yourself 21:14:07 <St3f> ok tnx :p 21:14:12 <Sacro> http://play-ttd.com/play/ 21:14:15 <Rubidium> drac_boy: what makes you think that? 21:14:16 <Eddi|zuHause> St3f: openttd.cfg will be created once you exit normally 21:14:20 <Sacro> gpl violation? 21:14:43 <andythenorth> debatable 21:14:52 <drac_boy> Rubidium the fact that its not even anywhere to be found without having created it yourself 21:14:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: please, do go ahead and discuss copyright with a russian :) 21:15:05 <peter1138> drac_boy, that's not a fact 21:15:13 <peter1138> drac_boy, that's a "you didn't look in the right place" 21:15:19 <Sacro> Eddi|zuHause: yeeeeeeeeah 21:15:24 <Sacro> good point 21:15:29 <drac_boy> peter1138 no? so why did I install openttd through the package thing then? 21:15:35 <Sacro> could be zodttd again 21:15:42 <drac_boy> so..the folder is actually right there 21:15:54 <andythenorth> can't tell how much of the game gets distributed to my browser....it hangs my web dev tools :P 21:16:02 <drac_boy> heh 21:16:18 <andythenorth> I assume the entire JS runtime and the graphics are distributed, so...yeah GPL violation 21:16:24 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 21:17:12 <Sacro> though if it's js... 21:17:17 <Sacro> then surely you do get the code 21:17:24 <Sacro> or it doesn't violate as its not agpl 21:17:29 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 21:17:32 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 21:17:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Sacro: that's not actually true, because the js-code is autogenerated, you need to distribute the code that it is autogenerated from 21:17:54 <andythenorth> I think it violates GPL 21:18:13 <andythenorth> code's on github though 21:18:19 <andythenorth> he could do it right, if he was interested 21:18:29 <peter1138> on windows, if you used the installer, it'll be under C:\Users\<username>\Documents\OpenTTD\ 21:18:37 <peter1138> (or whereever your user folder is) 21:18:49 <andythenorth> https://github.com/caiiiycuk/play-ttd 21:19:06 <andythenorth> https://github.com/caiiiycuk/play-ttd/issues/14 21:19:23 <drac_boy> why is a game installed to a document folder? 0_o 21:19:54 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: it is not. 21:20:06 <peter1138> drac_boy, that game isn't 21:20:07 <drac_boy> then how come he pretty much mentioned it btw? 21:20:11 <peter1138> drac_boy, your USERDATA is 21:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: pretty much every game in the last 15 years puts its savegame and config files into Documents\blah 21:21:39 <drac_boy> sounds like a field day for backup softwares when they can't find the full app from its own folder -_- 21:21:46 <drac_boy> but whatever 21:22:11 <peter1138> user data should never with stored with the program itself 21:22:26 <andythenorth> this is hardly controversial 21:22:31 <peter1138> that's what causes issues with permissions 21:22:57 <andythenorth> sounds like bad backup software 21:22:58 <Eddi|zuHause> drac_boy: a backup software that doesn't back up your documents folder you should throw into the garbage bin 21:23:01 <andythenorth> mine handles it fine 21:23:05 <peter1138> yeah 21:23:08 <drac_boy> andythenorth its a popular one actually...on both win+linux 21:23:17 <andythenorth> [shrug] 21:23:26 <andythenorth> proof that the world is not short of idiots? 21:23:45 <peter1138> what backup software is that? 21:24:03 <drac_boy> firefox perhaps is idiots if that was the case then? heh. mind you I never liked it much mainly for its instable resource management 21:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ECoherencyAlert 21:25:01 <peter1138> indeed, in other words, what? 21:25:21 <andythenorth> or eh? 21:25:24 <andythenorth> for brevity 21:26:01 <peter1138> of course, there is the split between Documents and Application\ Data 21:26:14 <peter1138> but they're still in the user dictory 21:26:15 <peter1138> er 21:26:16 <peter1138> directory 21:28:48 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@d108-180-123-63.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 21:29:12 <andythenorth> hmm 21:29:21 <andythenorth> where paper is? 21:29:25 * andythenorth -> newgrf wiki :P 21:29:58 <planetmaker> evening everyone 21:29:59 <planetmaker> @logs 21:29:59 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: http://irclogs.qmsk.net/channels/openttd 21:30:02 <andythenorth> lo planetmaker 21:30:52 <andythenorth> hmm, I haven't coded cargos since 2008 :P 21:30:58 <andythenorth> I have forgotten a lot 21:31:10 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d108-180-70-130.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:31:13 *** DDR_ is now known as DDR 21:32:02 <Pikka> peter's not beating me, andy :) 21:32:40 <andythenorth> ah 21:33:04 <andythenorth> few of his charts were overlapping yours when I checked :P 21:33:48 * andythenorth needs a fright toob 21:33:50 <andythenorth> for mail 21:34:29 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/stbr4.png yeah 21:34:44 <Supercheese> whoah, neat 21:34:49 <andythenorth> woah 21:34:50 <andythenorth> etc 21:34:54 <drac_boy> sorry...phone call...you know how that is -_- 21:35:36 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/stbr3.png < well that was kind of a bug 21:35:40 <drac_boy> heh peter1138 thats nice, crossing large stations in busy areas would be more interesting in multiplayer 21:35:41 <__ln__> yes, you press the green button and talk to the phone 21:35:53 <drac_boy> __ln__ nope...no button needed 21:37:08 <drac_boy> hmm peter1138 I guess that indeed is a bug. many planes have wings larger than the runaway width. ramming into the piers could be interesting 21:37:16 <drac_boy> heh 21:38:37 <Supercheese> Allow it anyway, maximum sandbox! :P 21:38:41 <drac_boy> __ln__ do you have one? :) 21:39:24 <Supercheese> How many bridge slots are there anyway? To the wiki... 21:39:33 <drac_boy> supercheese as long as theres a parameter to disable it for the sake of players that don't want to see town bridges over their airport 21:39:57 * Supercheese was only half-serious 21:40:05 <Supercheese> oh pooh, can't do bridges in NML 21:40:07 <Supercheese> nevermind then 21:41:15 <andythenorth> peter1138: good pilots can handle bridges 21:42:35 *** St3f [~Anonymous@5ED29E55.cm-7-3c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:48:58 <planetmaker> hm, seems that ISR is going to be re-vived :) 21:51:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Supercheese: 13 slots... obviously 21:51:05 <peter1138> ooh 21:51:10 <peter1138> with bridges over it ? 21:52:52 <drac_boy> planetmaker really? 21:53:31 <planetmaker> rumors, rumors. Voices in the wind ;-) 21:55:40 <drac_boy> heh 21:55:54 <drac_boy> well it could use some more specific industry tiles that has been missing for too long 21:56:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you solved your makefile issue? 21:56:12 <andythenorth> yes thanks 21:56:17 <andythenorth> search is my friend 21:56:20 <planetmaker> things work (again) as you need? And CF, too :-) 21:56:22 <planetmaker> good :D 21:56:22 <drac_boy> not to mention the lack of a platform to match wood unloading 21:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it could use showing cargo piles on average throughput, not current waiting 21:56:36 <drac_boy> and the generic empty raised platform tile doesn't seem right 21:56:39 <planetmaker> I heard rumors that FIRS compatibility is one of the first goals ;-) 21:56:47 <andythenorth> mart3p? 21:57:10 <peter1138> planetmaker's doing it himself 21:57:14 <drac_boy> eddi I rather prefer the latter, if the platforms seem full and theres no trains nearby I know I'm under-trafficed (for lack of word) 21:57:23 <peter1138> cos he has nothing better to do than mess with stations for years 21:57:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (my biggest feature request for ISR) 21:57:27 <drac_boy> no need to have to keep opening many station windows all the times 21:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> (because there are all these neat cargo graphics, but they're never shown) 21:58:10 <peter1138> yeah you only see the stockpiled stuff 21:58:31 <andythenorth> the animations run ;) 21:58:31 <drac_boy> or...I guess it could be left to a parameter for either 0 (as default) original behaviour or 1 the other behaviour you wanted 21:58:39 <drac_boy> I don't know tbh :) 21:58:42 <andythenorth> some of those animations took a whole weekend to setup ;) 21:58:58 <planetmaker> eddi's right with the way to show cargo graphis :-) 21:59:34 <peter1138> that's easy to fix for every station 21:59:41 *** bb10 [~bb10@bb10x.org] has joined #openttd 21:59:41 <peter1138> the code is in ResolveStation() 22:00:03 <andythenorth> I only want to see cargo graphics when there's a problem 22:00:08 *** bb10X [~bb10@bb10x.org] has quit [Write error: connection closed] 22:00:12 <andythenorth> or at least, that's there gameplay purpose for me ;) 22:00:21 <andythenorth> FISH 2 needs a big fast catamarran 22:00:24 <peter1138> although in fact it appears to only show the first waiting cargo 22:00:27 <andythenorth> 600 PAX or so 22:00:47 <peter1138> so i guess the grf could be overriding that 22:01:30 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the tiles need some randomisation to represent mixed cargo stations better 22:01:52 <andythenorth> or build per cargo 22:01:55 <drac_boy> isn't it already randomized anyway? 22:01:57 <andythenorth> bit fiddly :P 22:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can't have "per cargo" if you have flexible amouts of cargos 22:02:37 <andythenorth> good point 22:02:40 <andythenorth> and it's a PITA 22:02:44 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:02:49 <andythenorth> although there are cargo-specific tiles in ISR 22:03:14 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 22:03:30 <peter1138> cargo specific tiles should be able to represent the cargo type, stockpile wise 22:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can have a "bulk pile" tile that displays "black pile", "orange pile", "grey pile" and randomly decides which one it's prefering over all others 22:03:49 <Pikka> the cargo specific tiles in ISR just go off the first cargo waiting 22:04:09 <Pikka> so if 3 bags of mail turn up at your station with 500 crates of goods, all the goods disappear off the platforms 22:04:22 <peter1138> you can make it go by total cargo waiting if you're doing something generic 22:04:57 <peter1138> Pikka, in that case the function i pointed out can "fix" that to pick the most waiting 22:05:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sure it's just that somebody didn't bother implementing a more sophisticated check 22:05:11 <Pikka> yes 22:05:28 <Pikka> I'm saying that's a problem with ISR, not stations in general :) 22:05:57 <peter1138> not really, it's not ISRs fault that that is how openttd picks it 22:06:13 <peter1138> Do not skip an Action2 using Action9 (unless it skips the whole file). Action2 must not be skipped by Action9 or TTDPatch will most likely crash. Skip or modify Action3 instead. Skipping an Action2 with an Action7 has no effect. 22:06:17 <peter1138> hehe 22:06:20 <peter1138> i'm pretty sure that's all lies in openttd btw 22:06:44 <Pikka> still sounds like bad practice to me :P 22:07:03 <Pikka> if you're mucking with action 2 chains, do it with a var2, don't start sticking action 9s in 22:08:04 <peter1138> For vehicles (features 00 .. 03) and stations (feature 04) 22:08:05 <andythenorth> I found an exciting warning earlier that attempting to access 80+ vars from an industry tile will crash openttd 22:08:05 <peter1138> The cargo-type for which the set-ID applies. If the item is built to use this type of cargo, or if it is refitted for it, the given set-ID is used as its graphics. 22:08:06 <andythenorth> :P 22:08:09 <peter1138> yeah 22:08:11 <peter1138> cos i always refit my stations... 22:08:32 <andythenorth> stations are in no way batshit crazy 22:08:42 <peter1138> crash? 22:08:47 <andythenorth> allegedly 22:08:56 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: NML makes sure you can't skip action2's anyway 22:08:57 <peter1138> according to whom? 22:09:12 <andythenorth> crash *TTD* ....misread 22:09:18 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Industry_Tiles 22:09:21 <peter1138> oh, that's likely 22:09:36 <peter1138> you'll just get an "errrrrr that's not supported" result in ottd 22:09:57 <andythenorth> one day the rest of the newgrf spec will be rewritten to be compliant with stations 22:10:02 <andythenorth> so that it all makes sense 22:10:11 <peter1138> it does make sense 22:10:16 <peter1138> to me 22:10:26 <peter1138> after spending about 3 years working on it, if not more 22:11:10 <peter1138> the early pre-me implementation of newgrf stations 22:11:11 <peter1138> what a laugh 22:12:05 <andythenorth> I want cargo little and cargo lots for my vehicles too 22:12:17 <andythenorth> much more fun 22:13:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: already present; it's called "road vehicle" and "ship" 22:13:35 <andythenorth> :) 22:13:53 <andythenorth> big ships are really hard to use 22:14:10 <andythenorth> try them with TaI, the industries all close before the ship has delivered :P 22:14:14 <andythenorth> FIRS outputs are too low 22:14:31 <peter1138> andythenorth, pfft 22:14:34 <andythenorth> and with cargo goal GS, they just take too long to deliver 22:15:00 <peter1138> andythenorth, consider station property 10 to be the thing that distinguishes between loading and loaded 22:15:07 <peter1138> they're exactly the same after that 22:15:40 * andythenorth grumbles at peter1138 being all reasonable 22:15:42 <peter1138> loading and moving, sorry 22:15:51 <peter1138> stations don't move, heh 22:16:49 <andythenorth> time for bed iggle piggle 22:16:55 <andythenorth> oops 22:16:58 <andythenorth> forgot to finish FIRS 22:17:00 <andythenorth> nvm 22:18:10 <andythenorth> bye 22:18:13 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc23-aztw25-2-0-cust33.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:22:26 <peter1138> ooh it crashed 22:30:11 <__ln__> anyone been to paris airshow? 22:30:48 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/stbr2.diff 22:31:00 *** pjpe [ae5f48b7@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 22:31:07 *** pjpe [ae5f48b7@ircip2.mibbit.com] has left #openttd [] 22:32:45 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:33:13 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 22:35:27 <frosch123> + return GetBridgeHeight(GetNorthernBridgeEnd(tile)) - GetTileMaxZ(tile); <- that's the same as GetBridgeHeightAboveGround, innit? 22:36:12 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:39 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 22:38:20 <peter1138> oh, yes 22:40:20 <frosch123> hmm, don't you disallow construction of stations below bridges? 22:40:35 <frosch123> CheckBuildableTile seems to reject all bridges now 22:41:21 <peter1138> i removed the check from there 22:41:43 <peter1138> the check's moved to CheckFlatLand() 22:41:53 <frosch123> ah, the other hunk is already in another function 22:42:01 <peter1138> but as it's an svn diff you don't see the function in the hunk data 22:43:28 <peter1138> most of the changes are due to building station tiles under bridges :( 22:43:33 <frosch123> + statspec->heights = (uint8 *)malloc(tiles) <- i guess ottd uses MAllocT or something like that 22:43:34 <peter1138> building bridges over station tiles was easy peasy 22:43:39 <peter1138> oh yeah 22:43:46 <peter1138> old style coding :p 22:43:47 <frosch123> :p 22:44:40 <frosch123> hmm... why do we still disallow trees :p 22:45:37 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: trees don't usually grow under bridges :p 22:46:01 <frosch123> trees even grow inside houses 22:46:43 <frosch123> peter1138: looks nice, but lacks a lot of doxygen :) 22:50:52 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:51:38 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b0c.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 22:56:22 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:56:50 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 22:58:16 <frosch123> night 22:58:19 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590f7dab.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:06:33 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:07:02 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 23:08:39 <Terkhen> good night 23:11:23 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:11:51 *** Supercheese [~Password4@76.178.163.204] has joined #openttd 23:17:06 <drac_boy> hmm is one unit of wool supposed to weight the same as one passenger? I would had thought it would be lighter but apparently I guess you can't specify eg 0.4 or any decmical placement...or can you? 23:18:39 <peter1138> so how much wool is a unit of wool? 23:21:10 <__ln__> how much wool would a woolchuck chuck? 23:21:10 <drac_boy> good question, I haven't figured out yet how much amount of tightly packed wool would make up a hay bale package. I do know that its too easy to carry too much loose wool in your arms if you had wanted to heh heh 23:21:45 <drac_boy> __ln__ I believe that was actually wood as in woodchuck :) heh 23:23:08 <peter1138> well if it's wool 23:23:13 <peter1138> isn't not gonna be a hay bale 23:24:18 <Pikka> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/WoolBalesSouthMolton.jpg 23:24:26 <Pikka> these are 330kg each, apparently 23:25:02 <Pikka> but more traditional bales would only be about half as dense 23:25:09 <drac_boy> mm thats quite some thicker wool 23:25:52 <peter1138> no, it's just compacted to save space 23:27:38 <drac_boy> and apparently they don't always wrap it before pressing http://www.cavbrem.com.au/media/1468711/wool-bales.jpg 23:29:22 <peter1138> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Carting_wool_bales%2C_Australia%2C_1900.jpg 23:29:25 <peter1138> quite a lot on there 23:30:06 <drac_boy> indeed 23:44:56 *** Elukka [Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 23:55:21 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1B9C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd