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15:13:11 <frosch123> is that a unicode codepoint? 15:13:49 *** Gja has joined #openttd 15:26:55 <Alberth> it"s bau" shifted one key to start with "h", but it fails on making "hoi" 15:27:31 <frosch123> ah :) 15:27:35 <frosch123> "bau" is italian 15:27:43 <Alberth> :O 15:28:21 <frosch123> italian for "woof" 15:28:38 <Alberth> :) 15:32:54 *** Flygon has quit IRC 15:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> you know wolves don't actually "woof" 15:34:36 <frosch123> will ask him later 15:36:34 *** Progman has joined #openttd 15:39:25 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: juvenile wolf puppies do sometimes 15:51:11 <Wolf01> Quak, o/ 16:01:39 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 16:08:10 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 16:09:08 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 16:09:44 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 16:16:19 *** cHawk has quit IRC 16:21:36 *** tokai has joined #openttd 16:21:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 16:28:22 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 16:28:30 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 16:44:19 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:48:40 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 16:53:18 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 17:36:28 *** Biolunar has quit IRC 17:43:26 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 17:43:38 <andythenorth> o/ 17:44:25 <frosch123> moi 17:47:47 <Wolf01> o/ 17:51:53 <andythenorth> what to do? 17:54:05 <Wolf01> An usual reply to that question between my friends is "disgust", but it's because "what to do" and "what we are" it's the same in italian :P 17:54:28 <andythenorth> we are what we do eh? 17:54:37 <Wolf01> Yeah :D 17:56:53 <andythenorth> fricking FIRS :) 17:57:02 <andythenorth> last 20% time 17:57:08 <andythenorth> takes 80% of the effort 17:57:39 <andythenorth> ‘overlapping cargo payment curves’ :P 17:57:42 * andythenorth will fix that 17:58:01 <Wolf01> Lucky, usually is last 10% takes 90% effort 18:02:19 <andythenorth> I just have 3 industries to draw 18:02:23 <andythenorth> a few bugs to fix 18:02:31 <andythenorth> and a complete rework of all economies :P 18:12:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the 90-90 rule 18:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> the first 90% of the work takes 90% of the time 18:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and the other 10% of the work take the other 90% of the time 18:13:27 <frosch123> there are also some fancy 90-10 rules :p 18:13:52 <frosch123> use 10% of your time to solve 90% of the problems 18:14:05 <Wolf01> I follow the 10% rule, do 10% of the work in 10% of the time and stop 18:14:47 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 18:16:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i like that rule, i followed that through to the point where i reduced it by 1% every year 18:16:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and after 10 years i did basically 0 work 18:17:56 <frosch123> get 90% of the money for 10% of the work 18:27:39 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i also did that. i went back to 10% of the work, but upped the money from 10% to 90% :p 18:29:55 <andythenorth> should I render the payment curve in docs? 18:29:59 <andythenorth> with pil or something? 18:30:00 <andythenorth> :P 18:30:20 <andythenorth> can I automate payment curves? :P 18:31:10 <frosch123> if you add up the time of every ottd player since they last looked at the payment curves, will you get more than the age of the universe? 18:38:23 <Eddi|zuHause> does that algorithm terminate? 18:38:53 <andythenorth> BUT PAYMENT CURVES ARE VERY SERIOUS 18:38:56 <andythenorth> AND IMPORTANT! 18:39:08 <andythenorth> THERE ARE MANY FINE THREADS ABOUT THEM 18:39:47 <Alberth> point to them instead :p 18:40:15 <andythenorth> mostly I just need to prevent 1:1 overlap 18:40:24 <andythenorth> which happens due to copy-paste of the cargo definitions 18:44:01 <frosch123> then fill them with random numbers 18:44:37 <frosch123> or use the industry id :p 18:44:44 <frosch123> err, cargo id 18:47:47 <Wolf01> Mmmh, the simyoulater post on NRT... 18:51:23 <andythenorth> you just finished reading it? o_O 18:51:28 <andythenorth> did it take several days? 18:52:54 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:52:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 18:55:58 <__ln__> @seen glx 18:55:58 <DorpsGek> __ln__: glx was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 1 day, 21 hours, 22 minutes, and 51 seconds ago: <glx> ievan for me 18:56:30 <Wolf01> <andythenorth> did it take several days? <- yes 18:58:10 <Wolf01> I think he is just trying to tell us to plan carefully the feature to not change it later 18:58:42 <Eddi|zuHause> he does realize he's talking to andy? 18:58:51 <Wolf01> :D 19:01:02 <andythenorth> because somehow I am God of NRT 19:01:37 <andythenorth> I found the post quite interesting 19:01:59 <andythenorth> somehow it both groks significant issues, whilst also missing them 19:05:54 <andythenorth> do we have different number of railtypes for i386 and x64? 19:05:55 <andythenorth> :o 19:05:58 * andythenorth didn’t know that 19:06:15 <andythenorth> the map has different bits available for different architectures? 19:06:18 <andythenorth> that is fricking insane 19:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably gone through a fractal of half-knowledge 19:08:29 <frosch123> yes, that's why i386 and x64 always desync when playing together :p 19:08:44 <Wolf01> :o 19:08:56 <frosch123> (not) 19:09:34 *** FLHerne has joined #openttd 19:09:41 <frosch123> andythenorth: the only issue that we have with i386 support is that we do not support bigger sprite caches than 2gb 19:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> how dare you!! 19:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> that's discrimination! 19:10:24 <Eddi|zuHause> check your privileges! 19:10:37 <frosch123> i bought a bigger graphics card only for factorio 19:10:44 <frosch123> i.e. only because of V 19:10:55 <frosch123> i hope he gets a share from the manufacturer 19:14:46 <Wolf01> I'm still thinking about changing catenary to a flag (for railtypes too) 19:15:18 <andythenorth> that’s how this all started :P 19:15:24 <Wolf01> I know 19:15:27 <andythenorth> Wolf01: I just can’t face the barrage of shit 19:15:54 <andythenorth> catenary SIMPLY MUST be able to distinguish 25KV AC, 1500V DC, etc 19:16:00 <andythenorth> AND WHAT ABOUT THIRD RAIL!!!!! 19:16:04 <frosch123> i wondered about splitting of the ground+sideways, which may include catenary 19:16:34 <frosch123> i.e. catenary would be on the level of lamps and parking lots 19:16:42 <Wolf01> Also 4 railtypes with the same exact graphic with only different speed limit... 19:17:03 <andythenorth> ok seriously 19:17:14 <andythenorth> if I add catenary to a tile, is it available for both road and tram? 19:17:27 <frosch123> currently it isn't 19:17:28 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 19:17:38 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 19:17:38 <frosch123> but when moving to sideways, it would 19:17:57 <andythenorth> so does that transform the type? 19:18:36 <Wolf01> We could do a facade style thing, the problem will be on the grf side 19:18:54 <frosch123> no idea, does building track change the sidewalks? 19:19:20 <andythenorth> dunno :) 19:19:23 <Eddi|zuHause> everyone's spamming me with this link, must be valuable. http://store.steampowered.com/app/323580/Jotun_Valhalla_Edition/ 19:19:47 <Wolf01> Grfs should provide both with and without catenary, if both versions are present, the one with catenary is masked and you have a button to convert it to electrified 19:20:57 <Wolf01> If only electrified is present then there is no "remove catenary" button, and same happens for when the grf defines only standard type 19:21:05 <Wolf01> This is all about UI work 19:21:29 <Wolf01> But still limits the number of roadtypes 19:21:48 <Wolf01> You see 8 and instead you have 15 of them 19:22:02 <Wolf01> But is clean 19:22:48 <Wolf01> The user doesn't have to choose between 15 types which are really 8 19:23:10 <Wolf01> Or even 4 19:23:24 <andythenorth> can I electrify maglev? 19:23:44 <Wolf01> If it defines the catenary feature, why not? 19:24:35 <andythenorth> can I electrify ELRD? 19:24:56 <Wolf01> ELRD should not exist, is ROAD+catenary 19:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> electrified wetrail 19:26:59 <Wolf01> The best thing to do instead is to have just the *types you need, place infrastructures like catenary and speed limits 19:27:02 <andythenorth> Wolf01: want to patch? :P 19:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> remove roadtypes, make speedlimit signs 19:27:43 <Wolf01> The problems is where to find enough bits 19:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> but haven't we already discussed a separate "with catenary" flag? 19:28:09 <Wolf01> Catenary should have number of *types in tile * types of electrification 19:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> have a "subnet mask"-style mapping of bits towards roadtypes and catenary types :p 19:28:51 <Wolf01> OR! Just one electrification for all, with a single bit 19:29:25 <andythenorth> that was my preference :P 19:29:34 <andythenorth> fucks about catenary types I don’t give 19:29:43 <Wolf01> And the graphic is composed depending of which *types are present 19:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: problem with that is that it'll eventually clash with some random newgrf developer's idea about what it should do vs. what you originally intended it to mean 19:30:20 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that’s the case for all the newgrf spec :) 19:30:21 <Wolf01> Like everything 19:30:25 <andythenorth> so it’s 100% true, but for all cases 19:30:29 <andythenorth> so non-significant :) 19:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> there's different layers to this 19:30:49 <andythenorth> it’s only a matter of which developer, when, and how wrong they are :D 19:31:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like saying "whether science is 50% right or 99.9% right is irrelevant, it's still 100% wrong" 19:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> which is how we ended up with a president trump and a brexit, and ... 19:32:18 <andythenorth> what’s the problem with the current implementation? 19:32:24 <andythenorth> it’s clunky, but it works 19:32:34 <FLHerne> Doesn't the Dutch set already have different catenary sprites by railtype or something? 19:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> FLHerne: that's a problem, because with roadtypes, you can have two roadtypes with clashing catenary sprites 19:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> on the same trackbits 19:33:44 <FLHerne> That might look odd 19:34:11 <Wolf01> There's sprite composition 19:34:19 <FLHerne> Does notroadtypes also allow newgrfs to set their own sprites? 19:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> would be weird if it didn't 19:34:51 <frosch123> that's kind of the main point 19:35:19 <andythenorth> isn’t the problem solely that town roads can’t be electrified? 19:35:21 <frosch123> Wolf01: i think if there is a separate ground type to bui,d we can greatly reduce the number of road and tram types 19:35:25 <andythenorth> are there other issues? 19:35:48 <frosch123> taking the current example grfs, we have like 100 ground types, 3 road types, 3 tram types 19:35:59 <Wolf01> frosch123: yes, that could be a good idea 19:36:13 * andythenorth fails to understand :) 19:36:19 <andythenorth> ground type? 19:36:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: sidewalks vs parking lots vs cobble stone vs asphalt does not change the type of vehicles which drive on them 19:36:57 <Wolf01> Grass, dirt, cobbles, pavement, asphalt 19:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imagine CHIPS but for roads 19:37:16 <frosch123> yellow lines vs white lines does not either 19:37:18 <andythenorth> eye candy 19:37:25 <andythenorth> so more like building stations 19:37:39 <andythenorth> we have no bits for this though? 19:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there's never enough bits, we should remove all bits 19:38:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: i would solve the gameplay issues first before worrying about bits :p 19:38:32 <Wolf01> We should remove stations and place them on a common array 19:39:24 <andythenorth> the problem for me is that NRT just works 19:39:34 <andythenorth> such simple needs for andythenorth 19:39:34 <frosch123> does it? 19:39:58 <andythenorth> the compatibility is…tedious 19:40:25 <andythenorth> w.r.t not being able to bridge incompatible types with a 3rd type 19:40:45 <andythenorth> the rest works 19:57:47 <andythenorth> so cobble road is just ROAD and so on? 20:02:32 <frosch123> it's like manual built town zones 20:05:36 <andythenorth> so that moves 80% of types out of the global toolbar, and into a construction toolbar? o_O 20:06:20 <frosch123> no idea :) 20:06:45 <andythenorth> it’s quite appealing 20:06:51 <andythenorth> what problem is solved? 20:07:14 <frosch123> that we do not invent roadtype compatibility for eye candy differences 20:07:47 <frosch123> which likely also removes problems with upgrading existing roads of towns 20:07:51 <andythenorth> ok so what if simyoulater is ~right? 20:07:56 <frosch123> because changing eye candy does not affect routing 20:08:05 <andythenorth> I can’t avoid implementation details, because they always matter 20:08:07 <frosch123> i have not read it :üp 20:08:21 <andythenorth> but what about options to turn on/off sidewalks, catenary etc when constructing 20:08:28 <andythenorth> rather than inherent to the type 20:08:32 <frosch123> that's too explicit 20:08:39 <andythenorth> ok 20:08:46 <andythenorth> so something not than that 20:08:52 <frosch123> when you select dirt roads, there is little point in selecting parking lots and sidewalks 20:09:34 <frosch123> when changing ground type of existing roads i am thinking about something like the object gui 20:09:42 <frosch123> i just have no idea how to build new road :p 20:09:46 * andythenorth never uses objects 20:09:49 * andythenorth will try now 20:10:06 <andythenorth> where are objects? :P 20:10:14 <frosch123> landscape bar 20:10:23 <frosch123> but just think of them like chips 20:10:47 <andythenorth> looking at GarryG’s fake roads 20:11:15 <andythenorth> ha ha 20:11:17 <andythenorth> lego road plates 20:11:41 <frosch123> including lego tram? 20:11:50 <andythenorth> not so much :P 20:11:53 <frosch123> (too few pixels) 20:12:03 *** Hiddenfunstuff has quit IRC 20:14:15 <andythenorth> is catenary eye candy or no? 20:15:43 <frosch123> i wondered whether the eye-candy level should provide the graphics for the catenary, while road/tram type provide the requirement 20:16:31 <frosch123> which may imply that not all eye-candys allow catenary 20:17:15 <frosch123> anyway, independent of that, we should group road/tram types with/without catenary, so adding catenary upgrades both types 20:17:50 <frosch123> (i think wolf wrote that before) 20:18:52 <andythenorth> I have only played an hour or so with electric RVs 20:19:08 <andythenorth> so I likely didn’t get confused much about routing them on tram catenary 20:19:29 <frosch123> the issue with not being able to visually distinguish road from tram catenary will fall onto someones feet somewhen 20:19:37 <andythenorth> I can imagine the problem 20:19:45 <frosch123> so it makes sense to tie the electrifcation of both to each other 20:22:12 <andythenorth> does that demand that every road type is upgradeable to a different (electrified) label? 20:22:37 <frosch123> no 20:23:08 <frosch123> but if it is, building electric tram + removing tram will keep the now electrified road 20:23:34 <frosch123> may also depend on whether there are vehicles 20:24:03 <andythenorth> if this wasn’t OpenTTD, I’d propose just a flag on the tile 20:24:08 <andythenorth> ‘electrified’ 20:24:21 <andythenorth> which would work fine if it was a game, and not a reality simulator 20:24:24 <frosch123> you are thinking in bits again :p 20:24:35 <andythenorth> nah, gameplay 20:24:46 <andythenorth> there are limited number of dimensions for interesting variety 20:24:59 <andythenorth> the dragon game my kids play has fish and wood, and runes 20:25:06 <andythenorth> not 25 kids of fish 20:25:27 <andythenorth> although there are 2 kinds of runes :P 20:26:33 <frosch123> sounds like rock-paper-scissor 20:26:47 <andythenorth> when designing train sets it’s already hard to provide difference between electric and other types 20:26:51 <frosch123> runes beat wood, wood beats fish, fish beats runes 20:27:10 <andythenorth> depends on what you need most right now 20:27:24 <andythenorth> usually you need fish to feed the dragons to get more wood so you can earn runes 20:27:31 <andythenorth> then the runes get you more fish 20:27:39 <andythenorth> casual gaming :P 20:27:48 <andythenorth> or £48.99 to just get the runes now 20:28:59 <andythenorth> my view is quite distorted probably 20:29:14 <andythenorth> I considered 2 kinds of electric rail in Iron Horse (catenary and 3rd rail) 20:29:16 <andythenorth> for realisms 20:29:21 <andythenorth> but it made no sense 20:29:26 <andythenorth> one type is enough 20:30:18 <andythenorth> newgrf authors make poor spec designers :P 20:31:00 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 20:32:56 *** Alberth has left #openttd 20:56:17 * andythenorth tries to figure out practicalities 20:56:33 <andythenorth> so I upgrade my tramway to 3rd rail tramway 20:58:50 <andythenorth> no catenary :) 20:58:58 <andythenorth> ha, problem solved ;) 20:59:23 <andythenorth> all trams must be Bordeaux style https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground-level_power_supply 21:01:34 * andythenorth gives up :) 21:01:36 <andythenorth> sleep time 21:01:37 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:02:30 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:31:14 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 21:45:42 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:11:04 *** ed-209 has quit IRC 22:14:44 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:15:33 *** mescalito has quit IRC 22:16:11 *** quiznilo has joined #openttd 22:19:01 *** FLHerne has quit IRC 22:42:18 *** gelignite has quit IRC 22:45:30 *** Gja has quit IRC 23:45:50 <Wolf01> 'night 23:45:53 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC