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00:13:07 *** Mahjong1 has joined #openttd 00:20:17 *** Mahjong has quit IRC 00:34:29 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 00:57:12 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 02:09:09 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 02:09:44 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 02:10:18 *** glx has quit IRC 02:27:13 *** tokai has joined #openttd 02:27:13 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 02:34:13 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 02:52:19 *** orudge` has quit IRC 02:55:24 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 02:55:24 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 03:35:54 *** Arveen2 has joined #openttd 03:41:08 *** Arveen has quit IRC 04:16:38 *** Cubey has quit IRC 05:33:49 *** orudge` has quit IRC 05:34:17 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 05:34:18 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 06:14:17 *** Progman has joined #openttd 06:36:47 *** joseph222 has joined #openttd 06:37:42 <joseph222> Hi 06:39:10 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 06:39:25 <joseph222> Is it working 06:39:34 <joseph222> I am testing it on a app 06:39:45 *** Supercheese has joined #openttd 06:39:51 <joseph222> Hi 06:40:05 <joseph222> ... 06:49:44 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 06:49:52 <andythenorth> supermop: https://static1.squarespace.com/static/56cc404a356fb0ad1dc8a012/t/59b8ee0b9f7456ccb0a23798/1505291796375/SR+Newsletter+September+22+Middleton+steam+tram.jpg?format=1000w 07:17:59 *** Supercheese has quit IRC 07:22:45 <V453000> iz? 07:23:32 <andythenorth> yup 07:33:00 * andythenorth drawing Yeti transport http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JiLgyu1YLLY/UPHBDjdvUiI/AAAAAAAAAbg/wAM6QW9mWI0/s1600/CD0GGJan2013B.jpg 07:38:41 <V453000> sick 07:38:49 * V453000 finishing BRIX 07:38:53 <V453000> release tonight motherfuckers :> 07:41:36 <andythenorth> countdown clock 07:42:09 <joseph222> ?? 07:45:30 <V453000> yeah 08:07:36 *** orudge` has quit IRC 08:07:40 *** orudge` has joined #openttd 08:07:40 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o orudge` 08:26:30 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 08:30:42 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 08:37:56 <FLHerne> joseph222: It is, yes 08:39:15 <FLHerne> V453000: All the pictures on your preview page http://dev.openttdcoop.org/projects/yeti/wiki/Previews are broken 08:39:31 <FLHerne> (also the v1->2 comparison) 08:39:31 <V453000> yes because dropbox is a piece of trash 08:39:33 <FLHerne> Ah 08:39:42 <V453000> I'll probably fix it someday 08:39:57 <V453000> for now publishing BRIX is top priority 09:10:04 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 09:46:07 <V453000> 8 pages of bullshit text 09:46:07 <V453000> nice 09:46:51 <andythenorth> ? 09:47:02 <V453000> big BRIX blog article 09:47:04 <V453000> iz 09:48:19 <andythenorth> error 09:48:23 <andythenorth> not on coop site 09:48:27 <andythenorth> type faster 09:49:25 <V453000> evening will bring shitstorm 09:49:35 <V453000> BRIX flooding openttd universe 09:51:08 <V453000> oh also 09:51:23 <V453000> what was the thing which was stripping newgrfs of 32bpp and EZ? 09:55:43 <V453000> was it also musa? 09:55:47 <V453000> or some nmlc thing? 10:05:17 *** Gja has joined #openttd 10:15:16 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 10:15:20 <Wolf01> Moin 10:15:55 <__ln__> buon moin 10:37:18 <planetmaker> V453000, iirc it was grfcodec 10:37:48 <V453000> ooo 10:38:07 <V453000> thank you :) will try to fiddle 10:45:14 *** Gja has quit IRC 10:50:15 *** Samu has joined #openttd 10:51:02 <Samu> hi 10:51:13 <Samu> looking for english help 10:51:38 <Samu> I want to shorten "distance travelled during flight" 10:51:50 <Samu> distance flawn? flewed? flown? 10:51:56 <Samu> flought? 10:53:15 <V453000> "flying distance" ? 10:53:35 <V453000> "flymeters" 10:53:37 <V453000> :D 10:53:58 <Samu> :( 10:54:42 <Samu> "distance travelled since last takeoff" is too much to put on vehicle detail window 10:57:12 <Samu> well, there's "breakdowns since last service" 10:57:20 <Samu> not short as well, but ... 10:57:38 <LordAro> Samu: "flown" 10:57:49 <Samu> ty LordAro 10:57:58 <LordAro> although that would only replaced "travelled" 10:58:02 <LordAro> replace* 10:58:22 *** Gja has joined #openttd 10:58:32 <Samu> "distance flown since last takeoff"? 10:58:36 <LordAro> yeah 10:58:41 <Samu> ugh, still big 10:58:46 <Wolf01> It depends on what do you want to tell to the user: "distance travelled during flight" is the total distance? You don't tell much about it; "distance travelled since last takeoff" is more understandable 10:59:03 <LordAro> maybe get rid of flown/travelled entirely? 10:59:43 <LordAro> the word is a bit redundant - it's a vehicle, of course it's travelled to move any distance 10:59:44 <V453000> "distance since last takeoff" seems to make sense to me 11:02:43 <peter1139> current flight distance 11:05:13 <Samu> oki peter1139 11:06:43 <Samu> STR_VEHICLE_INFO_RELIABILITY_BREAKDOWNS_DISTANCE :{BLACK}Reliability: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}% {BLACK}Breakdowns since last service: {LTBLUE}{COMMA} {BLACK}Current flight distance: {LTBLUE}{COMMA}{NBSP}tile{P "" s} 11:06:47 <Samu> like that? 11:07:23 <Wolf01> Make it 2 strings 11:08:48 <Samu> STR_VEHICLE_INFO_RELIABILITY_BREAKDOWNS 11:09:01 <Samu> STR_VEHICLE_INFO_RELIABILITY_BREAKDOWNS_DISTANCE 11:09:02 <Samu> 2 strings 11:10:03 <peter1139> It was a suggestion. 11:34:42 <V453000> order 11:37:55 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 11:39:34 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 11:42:33 <Samu> there is a flaw with this counter :( 11:42:53 <Samu> horizontal/vertical counting is faster than diagonal 11:47:09 *** Gja has quit IRC 11:48:20 <Samu> halp! 11:48:22 <Samu> https://imgur.com/644D8vF 11:48:41 <Samu> 1,125 til... 11:48:45 <Samu> why not tiles 11:49:06 <__ln__> drop the 'current' 11:49:23 <Samu> oki 11:49:45 <__ln__> or 'flight', i guess it can be assumed that an aircraft flies by default 11:50:21 <Samu> the counter resets to 0 immediately after touching the ground... hmm 11:50:33 <__ln__> or how about 'distance flown' 11:50:43 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 11:50:49 <Samu> ok, seems right 11:50:51 <Samu> will change 11:51:16 <__ln__> but i'm not a native englishman, and i rarely even drink tea 11:52:19 <Samu> i still have to see what the heck happens with the counter when the aircraft is outside the map 11:54:55 <Samu> there's virtual coordinates stuff which I really don't get how it works 11:57:20 <peter1139> Moo. 11:58:28 <andythenorth> isn't it 11:58:44 <Samu> i like the idea of showing it in red if it travells too much 11:58:51 *** Gja has joined #openttd 11:58:57 <Samu> considering my patch and all, makes sense 12:13:53 <Samu> there is no start take off for helicopters? 12:15:31 <peter1139> Helicopters are rubbish 12:15:39 <peter1139> I was fixing something but didn't 12:15:44 <peter1139> Usual for my patches, I suppose. 12:15:57 <Samu> AircraftEventHandler_TakeOff 12:16:03 <Samu> this should suffice for both 12:16:06 <Samu> let's see 12:16:46 <Samu> i'm still trying to figure when it's the best time to reset the counter 12:17:12 <Samu> and when it's the best time to start counting and when to stop counting 12:18:59 <Samu> when the sound starts playing, the counter resets to 0 12:19:13 <Samu> seems like a good time to reset 12:21:24 <V453000> how would you expect I should give it the zoom and depth parameters? https://dev.openttdcoop.org/attachments/download/8713/grfstrip.png 12:21:37 <V453000> it seems to just remove both 32bpp and EZ for me 12:21:45 <V453000> can I make a 8bpp + EZ newgrf with this? 12:21:48 *** Gja has quit IRC 12:23:35 <Samu> damn it, helicopters are a difficult specimen 12:35:01 <Samu> it's all too confusing for helicopters 12:54:02 *** Progman has quit IRC 12:56:31 *** Progman has joined #openttd 13:03:05 *** josephlee222 has joined #openttd 13:09:10 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 13:09:27 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 13:10:29 *** joseph222 has quit IRC 13:38:26 <supermop_> andythenorth: did you see this yet? https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1863728218/inter-city-125-poster?utm_source=Kickstarter+%231&utm_campaign=9c17693294-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2017_10_22&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_55ce0e4a21-9c17693294-160903481&mc_cid=9c17693294&mc_eid=76deb86b76 13:39:34 <andythenorth> supermop_: think it will make it? o_O 13:39:41 <supermop_> yeah 13:40:02 <supermop_> i was debating the 100 quid level yesterday when it launched 13:40:06 <supermop_> now thats all gone 13:40:25 <supermop_> only hope is to drop enough hints to my wife re 13:40:29 <supermop_> : birthday gift 13:40:43 <andythenorth> I'd buy it, then leave it in cupboard 13:59:44 *** TheMask96 has quit IRC 14:01:58 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd 14:03:00 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has quit IRC 14:03:16 *** ToffeeYogurtPots has joined #openttd 14:08:41 <supermop_> 16px wide curtain side for cargo tram 14:09:06 <supermop_> thinking of taking every 4th 1px vetical strip and scrunching them to one side 14:09:33 <supermop_> but idk if asymetrical opening will bother me 14:09:43 <supermop_> lets see 14:12:08 *** josephlee222 has quit IRC 14:12:35 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 14:17:02 *** Flygon has quit IRC 14:30:33 *** Cubey has joined #openttd 14:37:52 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 14:37:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 14:38:00 <Alberth> o/ 14:40:23 <andythenorth> hi Alberth 14:56:15 <supermop_> https://imgur.com/a/VQ11P 14:56:37 <andythenorth> interesting 14:56:44 <supermop_> needs dark creases in the scrunch 14:58:05 <supermop_> https://meidresden.de/images/stories/Pressefotos/Dresden/VW-Bahn_Logistik/cargpotram-DSC_6185.jpg 14:58:21 <supermop_> folds hang out a bit when open 14:58:45 <Samu> i managed to find where exactly an helicopter starts raising up 14:59:25 <supermop_> ooh this looks cool: http://www.6-tram.ch/images/d_e_14_0058_580.jpg 14:59:38 <Samu> it's a bit messed up, but it's here if (amd.flag & AMED_HELI_RAISE) { 14:59:48 <Samu> if (--u->cur_speed == 32) { 15:00:08 <Samu> when speed matches 32, it starts raising up 15:00:35 <Samu> peter1139: 15:01:49 *** mindlesstux has quit IRC 15:02:19 *** mindlesstux has joined #openttd 15:03:17 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 15:04:05 <Alberth> o/ 15:06:25 <andythenorth> quak 15:07:17 <frosch123> moo 15:07:20 <supermop_> also not sure i need gangways on those cargo tram cars 15:12:26 <supermop_> hmm 1 shade darker not enough 15:12:57 <supermop_> might lighten the bumps of the folds 15:18:13 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 15:20:21 <supermop_> problem is the opening is big enough now i have to draw mail bags in there 15:20:40 <supermop_> slash beer kegs and bottles 15:25:16 <Wolf01> o/, quak 15:32:16 <Gustavo6046> Oathfinder works :D 15:32:19 <Gustavo6046> Pathfinder* 15:32:23 <supermop_> haha 15:32:37 <supermop_> aol+yahoo branded pathfinder 15:33:14 <Gustavo6046> oath of fealty 15:39:33 <supermop_> yeah. when aol and yahoo merged in preparation of selling to verizon, they changed the name of the joint company to Oath 15:52:34 <Samu> what does {NBSP} mean, I forgot 15:52:39 <Samu> on strings 15:53:07 <Alberth> non-breaking space 15:57:01 *** Breckett has joined #openttd 15:57:29 <Gustavo6046> ^ 15:58:24 <Samu> ok, still not sure what it does 15:58:28 <Samu> but will use it lol 16:01:22 <juzza1> it prevents line breaking at the space character 16:01:25 <Alberth> it looks like a space, but it's not 16:01:53 <Alberth> so sentences cannot be broken at that point 16:02:47 <Samu> ah, i see 16:20:36 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 16:30:42 <Samu> https://i.imgur.com/CXvCW53.png 16:30:47 <Samu> nice, i like it 16:32:20 <Gustavo6046> I have a bit field, where: 16:32:28 <Gustavo6046> • left two bits are X; 16:32:33 <Gustavo6046> • right two bits are Y. 16:33:05 <Gustavo6046> Being X and Y the normalized downhill direction of a slope, where: 16:33:14 <Gustavo6046> • 10 is -1; 16:33:17 <Gustavo6046> • 11 is 0; 16:33:21 <Gustavo6046> • 01 is 1. 16:33:37 <Gustavo6046> Nevermind 16:33:57 <Gustavo6046> • 00 is now the same 0 instead, and now it works, so ignore me. 16:34:18 <Alberth> wouldn't 11 be 2-complement -1 in 2 bit ? 16:34:42 <Gustavo6046> Alberth, I'm using just three numbers 16:34:53 <Gustavo6046> I'm comparing the bits, and doing a & b != 0 16:35:00 <Alberth> I guessed as much 16:35:06 <Gustavo6046> I want to know if a & b != 0 gets whether a road can be built between two slopes. 16:35:10 <Alberth> (a & b) != 0 then 16:35:57 <Gustavo6046> So, e.g. a = [-1, 0] and b = [-1, 1] does 100 and 110. 16:36:04 <Gustavo6046> Or rather, 0100 and 0110 16:36:24 <Gustavo6046> Oh wait, 01 is -1 and 10 is 1, I swapped :P 16:36:33 <Gustavo6046> Not important, it's symmetrical. 16:36:51 <Alberth> but wouldn't int x:2 not get expanded as 2 complement? I wonder 16:36:58 <Samu> so now there's aircraft range and distance flown 16:37:11 <Gustavo6046> LOL line 1101 is within the slope bitwise code https://i.imgur.com/eYrMYSV.png 16:37:19 <Gustavo6046> Alberth, no 16:37:25 <Gustavo6046> x and y must be between -1 and 1 16:37:27 <Alberth> bummer 16:37:46 <Gustavo6046> ? 16:38:03 <Samu> what are the pros of aircraft range? 16:38:14 <Alberth> "too bad, I had hoped it would" 16:38:22 <Gustavo6046> Slopes are a direction; directions are normalized to a unit vector where -1 <= n <= 1 and n in {x, y}. 16:38:56 <Samu> slopes aren't a direction, they're a big mess of stuff 16:40:10 <Gustavo6046> I know 16:40:13 <Gustavo6046> Samu, I know 16:40:28 <Samu> i worked on slope directions when working on river tiles :( 16:40:32 <Gustavo6046> that's why I clear the SLOPE_ELEVATED and SLOPE_STEE bits. 16:40:35 <Gustavo6046> SLOPE_STEEP* 16:40:38 <Samu> trying to make friendly rivers 16:41:35 <Gustavo6046> ? 16:41:50 <Samu> during map generation, try to make lock friendly rivers 16:42:10 <Samu> during town growth, try to make lock friendly town bridges 16:42:37 <Samu> i ended up fattening rivers, not really what I wanted to do :/ 16:43:08 <Samu> which aircraft set got aircraft ranges? 16:43:23 <Samu> i wanna see how distance flown + aircraft range interact with each other 16:43:57 <Samu> av8? 16:46:05 <Samu> Range: 96 tiles, Distance flown: 103 tiles 16:46:10 <Samu> :| 16:49:15 <Gustavo6046> oh 16:49:26 <Gustavo6046> Samu, it's radius flown 16:49:31 <Gustavo6046> so I guess you half the distance 16:49:31 <Samu> https://i.imgur.com/hcadBxE.png 16:49:50 <Gustavo6046> if the range is in a radial circle 16:49:58 <Gustavo6046> and the aircraft reached the edge 16:50:07 <Samu> i count every time the aircraft changes tile coordinates, i'm not sure what aircraft range do 16:50:29 <Samu> i think it counts the distance between the 2 airports 16:50:52 <Gustavo6046> Samu, you should instead count to X everytime it moves in X 16:50:58 <Gustavo6046> and count to Y everytime it moves in Y 16:51:12 <Gustavo6046> then the distance is sqrt(X*X + Y*Y) 16:51:19 <Gustavo6046> idk if Squirrel has pow 16:52:27 <Samu> i got a problem with identifying coordinates outside map 16:52:55 <Samu> it uses virtual coordinates when outside the map borders, and i have no idea how they work 16:53:11 <Samu> i can't calculate distances 16:53:20 <Gustavo6046> Samu, I had that too 16:53:23 <Samu> i can only count how many times it has moved from a tile to another 16:53:25 <Gustavo6046> so I did a TileVec class for coordinate 16:53:38 <Gustavo6046> it would always turn n < -1 to n = 0 16:53:52 <Gustavo6046> s/</≤/ 16:57:56 *** glx has joined #openttd 16:57:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 17:01:48 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 17:05:24 *** Breckett has quit IRC 17:15:22 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:29:54 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 17:36:30 <Samu> https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=76044&p=1184036#p1184036 done 17:42:13 *** sla_ro|master2 has joined #openttd 17:47:07 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 17:48:48 *** Gustavo6046 has quit IRC 17:50:43 <Samu> do aircraft have a weight concept in them? 17:50:49 <Samu> feature? 17:51:05 <Samu> the more loaded it is, the least it accelerates 17:56:39 <Alberth> the biggest problem is getting enough lift 17:57:01 <Alberth> but you obviously have that when it flies :p 17:58:16 <V453000> hi guys, does anybody remember how exactly should I use grfstrip? it tells me to give it input and output, that much is clear, but then it says [<depth> <zoom>] 17:58:22 <Samu> i was thinking of something like ... making the big capacity planes accelerate slower than the lower capacity ones 17:58:27 <V453000> how do I figure out the syntax and values it wants for the depth and zoom? 17:58:35 <V453000> Rubidium: ? :) 17:58:37 <Samu> depending always on how much is loaded, of course 17:59:09 <V453000> also can I get 8bpp with EZ from grfstrip? aka remove only 32bpp x4 and 32bpp x1 17:59:12 <Alberth> V does -h work? 17:59:57 <supermop_> samu - planes in game are pretty close to max speed by the time they are in the air 18:00:07 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 18:00:28 <Alberth> V, right it does :p 18:00:45 <supermop_> acceleration doesn't really have much gameplay effect for planes in game 18:01:05 <Samu> wanted it to be much like how trains do 18:01:05 <V453000> Alberth: yes but yeah it tells me that :) 18:01:20 <supermop_> also, as Alberth says, so long as it can reach take off speed it flies 18:01:27 <Samu> some engines take a long time to reach their maximum speed 18:02:02 <supermop_> Samu: that's probably the wrong approach - acceleration is also fairly inconsequential for planes IRL 18:02:04 <Alberth> V depth looks like 32bpp 8bpp 18:02:17 <Alberth> zoom[] = { "normal", "zi4", "zi2", "zo2", "zo4", "zo8" }; 18:02:29 <supermop_> even heavy cargo plains will reach several hundred kmh in a few seconds 18:02:45 <Samu> oh well, there goes my logic 18:03:01 <supermop_> the biggest issue in 'balancing' weight of planes is rather how much fuel they burn 18:03:21 <supermop_> heavy load = need more fuel to take off and fly 18:03:47 <V453000> :D 18:04:11 <supermop_> to a lesser extent (not important for openttd) heavy load = less weight allowance for fuel = less range 18:04:14 <V453000> ok so I write grfstrip.exe BRIX.grf BRIX-8bpp.grf 32bpp zi4 ? 18:04:37 <V453000> well it did something 18:04:39 <Alberth> something like that 18:04:54 <V453000> ah so I tell what to keep 18:04:57 <frosch123> i think grfstrip command line is broken 18:05:12 <Samu> my own laws of physics differ from that of real world :( 18:05:15 <Samu> keks 18:05:26 <supermop_> Samu: if you want to do something that operates on the load of aircraft, it would be more logical to have running cost increase with load weight 18:05:36 <frosch123> it misses some "i++" 18:05:58 <supermop_> but planes in game (and most airliners IRL) pretty much always fly full 18:06:46 <Samu> increased running costs, again 18:06:48 <Samu> hmm 18:06:56 <V453000> how do I tell if it also removed x1 8bpp from the grf ... it should never do that, right? 18:07:09 <frosch123> yes, it won'T do that 18:07:16 <frosch123> what resolutions do you have? 18:07:21 <V453000> x1 x4 18:07:32 <frosch123> 8bpp 1x, 8bpp 4x, 32bpp 1x, 32bpp 4x, more? 18:07:34 <frosch123> less? 18:07:38 <V453000> it did keep x4 so it should work 18:07:51 <V453000> 8bpp x1, 8bpp x4, 32bpp x1, 32bpp x4 18:08:11 <V453000> seems functional :) cool 18:08:11 <V453000> thanks 18:08:13 <supermop_> samu, i don't even know if aircraft in game have a power property 18:08:42 <frosch123> so you want: grfstrip bla.grf bla-8bpp.grf 8bpp zi4 18:08:53 <frosch123> but if will fail if you have more zoomlevels 18:08:55 <frosch123> *it 18:09:36 <V453000> ok, I won't :P 18:10:47 <Samu> aircraft don't have weight, from what I can find 18:13:01 <Samu> they have no power either 18:13:10 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 18:14:10 <Samu> only rail and road vehicles have weight 18:14:14 <Samu> ships and aircraft don't have 18:14:31 <andythenorth> no 18:14:54 <andythenorth> I have wondered about ship physics 18:14:58 <andythenorth> but I think it's negligible gain 18:17:15 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pjasirl2o?/pjasirl2o <- fixes grfstrip to allow more than one additional format 18:18:26 <frosch123> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pe46uito2?/pe46uito2 <- another return was missing 18:18:51 <Samu> aircraft have image_index, cost_factor, running_cost, subtype, sfx, acceleration, max_speed, mail_capacity, passenger_capacity, max_range 18:19:04 <Samu> no weight :( 18:19:18 <Samu> not even air_drag 18:19:50 <supermop_> samu: for the purposes of the game, there is no need to have those 18:20:19 <supermop_> speed is determined by thrust, weight (somewhat) and drag (a lot) 18:20:51 <supermop_> if it is important that plane 1 goes 300kmh and plane 2 goes 600 kmh 18:20:53 *** ProfFrink has joined #openttd 18:21:32 <supermop_> there is not really much need to do something more complex than just giving what the final max speed should be 18:21:54 <Samu> there is acceleration 18:22:01 <Samu> will take a loog at acceleration 18:22:05 <Samu> look* 18:22:20 <supermop_> rather than trying to approximate drag and thrust such that the result is the speed you want 18:22:36 <supermop_> acceleration is only really relevant when taking off 18:23:05 <supermop_> and OpenTTD doesn't have or need airplanes that don't make it off the runway because they are overweight 18:24:08 <supermop_> because again, the capacity is the max weight a plane can take off with 18:24:35 <supermop_> a plane can't be too heavy to take off because it would be over capacity 18:25:14 <supermop_> whether a plane needs half of the runway or all of the runway isn't really simulated by game 18:25:56 <supermop_> you could make plane crashes at short runways dependant on plane weight - but the plane size property already handles that 18:26:49 <Samu> plane crashing is too drastic for balancing... :( 18:27:09 <Samu> i don't like the idea of crashing to make them fair 18:29:40 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 18:35:00 <supermop_> make what fair? 18:35:26 <supermop_> what is unfair about planes? every player can buy them 18:36:48 <supermop_> if you want to nerf particular planes, pretty much range, speed, and running costs are the only aspects that will have a noticeable effect relative to capacity 18:42:57 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 18:42:59 *** oskari89 has joined #openttd 18:43:52 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest7274 18:43:54 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 18:45:42 *** ToBeFree has joined #openttd 18:46:36 *** Gustavo6046 has joined #openttd 18:49:56 *** Guest7274 has quit IRC 18:52:46 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 19:14:42 <Alberth> latter looks good frosch123 19:15:00 <Alberth> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pe46uito2?/pe46uito2 19:15:51 <frosch123> thanks for checking 19:16:57 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps also add texts for the parameters in the help? 19:17:07 <Alberth> avoid looking it up again from the source :p 19:17:32 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 19:17:34 <frosch123> like names for zoom levels? 19:17:40 <Alberth> yes 19:54:37 *** sla_ro|master2 has quit IRC 20:04:01 *** quiznilo has quit IRC 20:04:18 *** quiznilo has joined #openttd 20:09:02 *** tokai has quit IRC 20:10:04 *** quiznilo has quit IRC 20:11:27 *** Gja has joined #openttd 20:11:30 *** quiznilo has joined #openttd 20:12:08 <Samu> question, how did you come up with those base acceleration values in engines.h table? 20:12:26 <Samu> 18, 20, 35, 40, 50 20:15:56 <V453000> 666 20:17:52 <Samu> let's make yate haugan acceleration = 5 20:17:55 <Samu> see what happens lol 20:18:33 <supermop_> Samu: certainly chris sawyer just made them up to feel right 20:20:20 <Samu> hmm yate haugan acceleration is lower, hmm hmm :) but it's still a fixed amount 20:20:31 <Samu> accelerates at the same rate 20:21:20 <Samu> this game needs a realistic acceleration for aircraft? :p 20:21:52 <supermop_> Samu: why? 20:22:19 <supermop_> 'realistic' would be almost instantaneous relative to other vehicles 20:22:30 <Samu> okay, not that kind of realistic 20:23:01 <supermop_> also you run the risk of then making only very very long flights desirable 20:23:19 <supermop_> where aircraft already heavily favor long flights 20:23:28 <Samu> was thinking of acceleration rate slowing down the closer it gets to max speed 20:24:51 <Samu> yeah, i see 20:27:22 *** Breckett has joined #openttd 20:28:05 <supermop_> still though, a 747 flying 1000 tiles will spend more time at a high speed than a embraer 135 flying 50 tiles 20:36:29 <Samu> with acceleration = 1 20:36:45 <Samu> it took 676 tiles to reach max speed, on yate haugan 20:37:59 <Samu> seems like for each x acceleration, the cur_speed increases x per tick 20:38:31 <Samu> this is all interesting, but i'm not sure if this is what I want to do 20:38:50 <supermop_> what do you want to do? 20:39:11 *** Mazur has quit IRC 20:39:50 <Samu> not sure if I really want to touch acceleration 20:40:13 <Samu> if i want the more cargo loaded, the slower it accelerates 20:40:18 <Samu> idea 20:41:08 <supermop_> with aircraft, you cannot build more, or more powerful turbines for a given plane 20:41:35 <supermop_> a plane will always have the same 'power' and the same capacity 20:42:27 <Samu> what you're saying is that it's not how real physics work 20:44:41 <Samu> major goal is profits 20:45:00 <Samu> something that punts a dent on aircraft profits 20:45:19 <Gustavo6046> The difference is the technology: Embraer, being from Brazil, automatically advantages from high technology index. Unfortunately my country is still poor. 20:46:14 <Samu> the acceleration thing seems to only promote long long distances 20:46:28 <supermop_> it is not like a train where the player makes a choice about the loading ratio compared to the motive power 20:46:53 <supermop_> planes pretty much always fly at 100% loaded 20:47:08 <V453000> Ah I guess musa needs python 2.6 20:47:51 *** Mazur has joined #openttd 20:47:55 <supermop_> so there is no real reason to make planes that are 50% full cheaper or faster than planes that are 100% full 20:48:53 <Samu> what about the opposite 20:49:23 <Samu> place accelerates to max speed as it usually do, but then it loses speed if it travels too much 20:49:24 *** Alberth has left #openttd 20:49:42 <Samu> akin to my breakdown idea, but instead of breaking down, it decelerates gradually 20:50:07 <Samu> plane accelerates* typo 20:51:42 <Samu> something like... travel 500 tiles at max speed, then the rest, gradually slow down 20:52:32 <Gustavo6046> Samu, aerodynamics boi 20:52:49 <Samu> what? 20:52:53 <Samu> sorry im noob 20:53:14 <supermop_> Samu: what behavior do you want to affect 20:53:20 <Samu> profits 20:53:30 <supermop_> not effect, but affect 20:53:43 <supermop_> what change in player behavior do you want to create 20:54:10 <Samu> make them use aircraft without them being retardedly profitable 20:54:34 <supermop_> profit is probably a weak motivator for many players then 20:55:06 <Samu> hmm no one likes to use aircraft on competitive servers, i'd like to change this fact 20:55:51 <supermop_> i never use aircraft because 1) it is boring, 2) plenty of occupation on other thing to ever get around to building airports 20:56:16 <supermop_> 3) often soon have plenty of money without aircraft, so don't need them for funing 20:56:20 <supermop_> funding 20:56:29 <Cubey> I think most people who play openttd are mostly interested in the trains 20:56:52 <supermop_> so people are largely discouraged from using aircraft already 20:57:05 <supermop_> profit is largely not interesting in the game 20:57:11 <Cubey> Personally I find playing with the aircraft not very satisfying...not much challenge, nothing really interesting you can do with them 20:57:52 <supermop_> if you are competing to move the most cargo, or to grow a city largest, aircraft do not provide much of a competitive advantage anyway 20:58:06 <V453000> https://blog.openttdcoop.org/2017/10/23/brix-0-0-2-is-here/ 20:58:09 <V453000> =D 20:58:11 <V453000> iz 20:58:30 <supermop_> OpenTTD is difficult because it trying to approximate a scale where both trains and planes are applicable 20:59:23 <Samu> infrastructure maintenance costs on aircraft are way too drastic for small maps 20:59:55 <supermop_> Samu: the infrastructure cost was supposed to be a tool to balance out the profitability of aircraft 21:00:10 <_dp_> I solved aircraft balance on our servers by disabling large aircrafts 21:00:23 <_dp_> small ones are still decently profitable but loose to trains 21:00:55 <Samu> my main issue is indeed the big planes 21:01:02 <Samu> small planes, i noticed they're fine 21:01:02 <supermop_> aircraft ranges are another tool, but default will not have those 21:01:16 <supermop_> and again, bigger plane = bigger range 21:01:30 <_dp_> range is weird 21:01:48 <_dp_> and does nothing to balance profit 21:02:21 <Samu> what do you think of this https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=76044 21:02:23 <Samu> _dp_: 21:02:45 <supermop_> _dp_: it was less to balance profit, more to just force some more consideration in route planning beyond 'build two airports as far apart as possible' 21:03:33 <supermop_> in real life, a380 doesn't print money because people want certain flexibility in flights, so you cannot have every take off slot from LHR be an A380 to PVD every 2 minutes 21:04:00 <supermop_> OpenTTD cannot provide that self-balancing 21:04:19 <_dp_> there is a reasonable distance limit, you need fast income when starting 21:04:50 <_dp_> it's like 1000 tiles but whatever) 21:05:00 <Cubey> Any balance in openttd is opted-into by the user 21:05:15 <supermop_> range also can only make sense for one map size 21:05:24 <_dp_> Cubey, it doesn't work like that on competitive servers :p 21:06:02 <supermop_> if you are playing a map of the UK at 4k^2, any range limit at all will not make sense 21:06:04 <Cubey> That's why competition servers only reflect a very small subset of all the styles of gameplay used by players 21:06:44 <supermop_> _dp_: i have never seen a competitive server i wanted to play on 21:07:36 <Cubey> I see openttd as being in basically the same category as minecraft 21:07:49 <Cubey> There are all sorts of games that can be played within the game 21:07:59 <Cubey> Goal servers, city builder, etc. 21:08:11 *** tokai has joined #openttd 21:08:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 21:08:16 <Cubey> But there are many many more "non-game" ways to play the game 21:08:31 <_dp_> supermop_, well, not everyone likes competitive play I know 21:08:37 <Samu> I was medling with this idea... instead of promoting a breakdown aka limit speed to 321 km/h, make it gradually lose speed after x tiles 21:08:46 <supermop_> i wouldn't mind competition 21:09:15 <Samu> but it makes no sense, or yada yada... 21:09:21 <Samu> I need ideas :( 21:09:25 <supermop_> but servers always have things like, newgrf settings that make no sense, or no newgrfs at all 21:09:40 *** ToBeFree has quit IRC 21:09:40 <supermop_> or no cdist, so passenger networks make no sense 21:09:59 <supermop_> or very narrow goals 21:10:06 <Cubey> There are no regularly operating servers that are configured remotely like how I have my single player 21:10:11 <_dp_> among competitive ones I'm sure we have the best ones on CityMania xD 21:10:27 <_dp_> cdist is like a gs of it's own, it's hard to combine it with any other goal 21:10:33 <Cubey> It is strange to me how there are practically no servers with a moderate amount of newgrfs and the vanilla/stable version of the server 21:11:10 <supermop_> Cubey: exactly 21:11:27 <_dp_> It's very hard to configure vanilla 21:11:46 <Samu> i only care about vanilla 21:11:51 <supermop_> like a plain silicon valley GS with Firs and a nice train set would be fun and competitive 21:11:57 <_dp_> newgrfs can at lest do something about gameplay 21:12:11 <Cubey> I mean, the configs I use would never work for a multiplayer server, because I limit my behavior through choice rather than restrictive settings 21:12:26 <Cubey> E.g. you could never leave the max station spread set to maximum on a public server, it would be abused too much 21:12:47 <_dp_> well, you can set some rules about it 21:13:04 <_dp_> but better to be coded ofc 21:13:35 <_dp_> but sadly some things can't be coded so still need rules, mods, etc 21:13:36 <Cubey> Even stuff like cargodist has problems 21:13:58 <Cubey> Since cargo only appears with destinations that the network graph already knows are connected 21:14:17 <Cubey> You can "game" the system by only building point to point routes 21:14:49 <Cubey> There's no way to force players to build "realistic" routes under cargodist, it's just something they have to choose to do 21:15:10 <supermop_> Cubey: exactly, in a city builder system, even with cdist on, you can set up your routes so it is only possible for any passenger in your network to get dumped at your city 21:16:32 *** Gja has quit IRC 21:16:41 <Samu> i feel that i need to do something about aircraft :( 21:17:06 <Cubey> And I don't see any of that as a problem, because I prefer open-ended sandbox-like games anyway 21:17:19 <Cubey> And I think a lot of people who play simulation games do 21:17:33 <_dp_> well, what's the point of cdist on competitive server then if it can be cheated anyway? 21:18:07 <Samu> cargo dist, i rather call it cargo with personality 21:18:37 <Samu> hi, I'm coal, and i want to go to that train, not this one 21:19:13 <_dp_> and btw, there is no way to force players to build "realistic" because no one knows wtf does "realistic" mean in openttd :p 21:20:32 <_dp_> everyone builds whatever he likes and calls it "realistic" 21:20:46 <Cubey> Yeah that's true 21:20:50 <Samu> :( 21:20:58 <supermop_> _dp_: because building passenger networks without cdist is incredibly frustrating 21:21:26 <V453000> +1 _dp_ 21:21:51 <Cubey> I'm working on some scripts to pull data from the GS API through the admin port and help me analyze my cargodist graph 21:22:02 <_dp_> Samu, btw, as for breakdonws I think as long as they're random they're bs. I disabled breakdowns for planes where it matters (aka where it's a best way to start). 21:22:10 <ST2> damn, and now that I'm out of popcorns :( 21:22:25 <Samu> when i hear of cargo dist, i always think about how cargo is distributed to the nearby stations 21:22:31 <Samu> so confusing 21:22:34 <Cubey> But I'm realizing that even with access to a lot of information I can slice and dice, it's not immediately clear what my goal should even be 21:23:48 <Samu> i prefer breakdowns enabled for aircraft, but aircraft crashes disabled 21:24:06 <Samu> i just wish big planes couldn't just land on small airports 21:24:11 <Samu> but oh well 21:26:05 <supermop_> i once tried a polish GS that tried to control town growth by type of passenger service provided. 21:26:09 <supermop_> was pretty nice 21:26:50 <supermop_> encouraged growth in cities that were hubs of the network 21:27:30 <Samu> ST2: give me ideas for aircraft 21:27:52 <ST2> change the atendants :P 21:28:04 <Samu> so ppl want to play with breakdowns disabled and aircraft 21:28:10 <Samu> there goes my patch :( 21:28:18 <supermop_> Samu: some people do 21:28:32 <supermop_> some people never touch aircraft 21:28:48 <ST2> actually, on SP people can play with the settings they want ^^ 21:28:56 <supermop_> aircraft breakdowns are weird as is 21:29:17 <_dp_> oh, right, I meant crashes, but whatever, another random bs 21:29:29 <Cubey> Yeah the default aircraft breakdown behavior never made any sense to me 21:29:37 <_dp_> basically on competitive server it mean if crashed first year -> restart 21:29:47 <ST2> MP servers, and specially the ones with goals, try to balance things to all cargo types/ways to trasnport it be more or less equal 21:29:51 <Cubey> Crashes are a huge pain so I always disabled them, but at least that corresponds to something I can imagine actually happening 21:30:22 <Samu> when it's disabled, noobs will use big planes on small airports... I wish they wouldn't do it 21:31:00 <supermop_> ST2: i never understood 'balancing' like that though - if everything is balanced to be equivalent, what is the point of choosing any particular thing 21:31:20 <ST2> exactly supermop :P 21:31:31 <supermop_> it makes more sense for the game to have optimal uses for certain things 21:31:33 <Cubey> There have been a number of proposed ideas in the past having to do with improving the layouts of airports and making a bigger difference in throughput for the larger layouts 21:31:41 <ST2> it's where the human factor comes up 21:31:54 <Cubey> Which would be a good reason to use the big ones instead of just whatever has the smallest footprint 21:31:59 <Cubey> But none of that has ever made it in trunk 21:31:59 <_dp_> Samu, usually it's pro's who do that not noobs, noobs buy big airports, one plane and go bankrupt :p 21:32:00 <Wolf01> It's the blizzard syndrome 21:32:10 <supermop_> rather than balancing so that for any route length there is no difference between a bus or a 747 21:33:00 <_dp_> but as long as game balanced for it it's fine to do whatever 21:33:08 <supermop_> Samu: i think "make the game harder for 'noobs' and easier for expects" is the opposite of balancing 21:33:29 <_dp_> like, sure, big planes with small airports are the best start on our tropic cb blitz, so what? 21:33:41 <Samu> a big airplane on a small aircraft always gets me on my nerves :( 21:33:45 <Samu> small airport* 21:33:58 <ST2> hire better pilots xD 21:34:17 <Samu> if i disable aircraft crashes, they get away with it 21:34:23 <supermop_> maybe they have thrust reversers 21:34:34 <Samu> if i enable crashes, there may be accidental crashes early game, ruining it 21:34:44 <supermop_> Samu: punishing players is probably not fun 21:35:05 <_dp_> idk what ST2 means by balancing cargo, but for me balancing usually means don't let stupid shit to be the best way of doing smth xD 21:35:32 <ST2> _dp_: touch� xD 21:36:44 <Samu> like 2 airports in the 2 corners 21:36:47 <Samu> and a plane 21:36:56 <_dp_> yep, exactly xD 21:37:10 <ST2> supermop_: you said don't like goal servers - probably never tried the one using BusyBee ^^ 21:37:29 <Samu> slowing them down past x tiles, goes against the idea of what aircraft is 21:37:35 <ST2> and it's goal based to restart when goal is reached and get a new map, to new players join and build 21:37:42 <_dp_> have you fixed your bb to not be a p2p truck fest? 21:37:43 <supermop_> ST2: i sometimes play busy bee SP, its a bit too random for me 21:37:58 <ST2> that's the magic of it xD 21:38:10 <supermop_> _dp_: BB is always p2p biased 21:38:39 <Samu> balancing cargo is making coal suck 21:38:40 <_dp_> idk, I think with a lot of big goals it can favor networks or some sort 21:38:43 <Samu> coal too stronk 21:38:45 <supermop_> it is fun trying to rework a p2p train route to become a network as targets change in SP though 21:38:46 <_dp_> like 100+ big 21:38:50 <_dp_> *log 21:38:54 <_dp_> *lot dammit 21:38:55 *** Breckett_ has joined #openttd 21:38:57 <supermop_> but it would always be easier to spam trucks 21:39:23 <supermop_> Samu: don't use default cargo 21:39:27 <_dp_> coal is only good as a starting cargo 21:39:30 <ST2> BB gets resumed to short tracks when cash income is stable 21:39:32 <Cubey> "Balance" to me means that coal is stronker than most cargos because it also has no secondary 21:39:44 *** Breckett has quit IRC 21:39:45 <supermop_> yeah 21:39:58 <supermop_> in vanilla coal just goes to black hole at power plant 21:40:11 <Samu> i compared coal to grain/livestock combo and I was a bit surprised by the results 21:40:12 <supermop_> there is no other complex chain 21:40:26 <Samu> they're equal 21:40:47 <Samu> with the advantage of goods being produced 21:40:52 *** sim-al2 is now known as Guest7285 21:40:54 *** sim-al2 has joined #openttd 21:41:25 <_dp_> Samu, goods pay better than coal even if you don't count livestock 21:41:35 <Cubey> So the farm->factory chain is actually well balanced with coal 21:41:59 <_dp_> but iron ore chain is probably even better 21:42:12 <_dp_> because of 3 steps 21:42:20 <Samu> iron one feels disappointing 21:42:25 <Cubey> That means more cost of overhead though 21:42:30 <Samu> yeah, it has that potential, but still disappointing 21:42:55 <Cubey> I tend to look at wood right away because it's almost as good as coal and also causes goods to be produced 21:43:11 <_dp_> speaking of disappointing, if there decent cities pax beats everything :p 21:43:27 <_dp_> or if cities are allowed to grow for that matter 21:46:52 <_dp_> actually, why are we even theorizing about it, just check this: https://citymania.org/goal/1031/best-scores 21:46:53 *** Guest7285 has quit IRC 21:47:06 <ST2> btw _dp_: already got players complaining of this? https://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=77042 21:47:11 <_dp_> saber did it with pax mostly and goods iirc, da with goods, me with iron ore 21:47:35 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:47:35 <_dp_> ST2, nah, no players - no complaints xD 21:48:00 <ST2> well, only happens with W10 with latest update 21:48:19 <ST2> mine still not updated so, no self complaints xD 21:48:35 <_dp_> and mine is not even windows xD 21:48:54 <ST2> that's why I asked about players... not you :P 21:49:28 <_dp_> psst, I have windows too, just don't tell anybody 21:49:42 <ST2> secret kept ^^ 21:49:45 <_dp_> for mashinky xD 21:50:15 <_dp_> and compiling cmclient ofc 21:50:54 *** sim-al2 has quit IRC 22:00:43 <_dp_> omg, brix evolved to something crazy since last time I checked it xD 22:04:02 <_dp_> 80 megs tho *sigh* 22:04:12 <Wolf01> 'night 22:04:14 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:08:51 <_dp_> V453000, how do I get both snow and sand in game like on reddit picture? 22:12:13 <_dp_> oh, yeah, toyland replacement doesn't go well with it :( 22:12:26 *** oskari89 has quit IRC 22:12:29 <_dp_> and not just on toyland 22:13:18 *** Breckett_ has quit IRC 22:15:28 <_dp_> signal selection is goofy 22:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> what reddit picture? 22:17:19 <_dp_> Eddi|zuHause, https://www.reddit.com/r/openttd/comments/78au2v/brix_002_has_been_released/ 22:19:02 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 22:21:42 <_dp_> disabling tracks in grf settings also disables ground sprite for tracks and rivers 22:22:05 <_dp_> am I mumbling too much?) 22:34:49 <Gustavo6046> GUYS 22:34:50 <Gustavo6046> IT WORKS 22:34:50 <Gustavo6046> https://i.imgur.com/PufMfmw.png 22:34:57 <Samu> i'm trying to fix something 22:35:27 <Samu> when an aircraft breaks down, it currently goes from 2000 whatever km/h to 321 km/h instantly 22:35:45 <Samu> i'm trying to make it gradually lose speed towards 321 km/h 22:35:58 <Samu> smooth it 22:48:51 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:52:22 <frosch123> ads for ad blockers are weird 23:05:24 <Samu> looks like i did it, but... unsure if it's done the right way for implementation purposes 23:15:08 <Samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pcsi29tuh 23:15:12 <Samu> what u think 23:15:31 <Samu> lines 24-28 are added 23:15:41 <Samu> and i removed some, hmm let me post patch too 23:16:15 <Samu> https://paste.openttdcoop.org/pq65cf6fi 23:18:07 *** Progman has quit IRC 23:48:48 *** Laedek has quit IRC 23:49:38 *** Laedek has joined #openttd