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00:50:08 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 02:38:53 *** Progman has quit IRC 03:21:40 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 03:39:47 *** glx has quit IRC 05:16:26 *** triolus has joined #openttd 05:22:41 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 07:20:32 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:30:39 <andythenorth> moin 07:33:41 *** Alberth has joined #openttd 07:33:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth 07:33:48 <Alberth> moin 07:36:03 <andythenorth> hi Alberth :) 07:36:05 <andythenorth> been a while 07:36:25 <Alberth> yep, too much coding during the work day 07:37:25 <andythenorth> I have a remedy for that 07:37:37 <andythenorth> spend your time on ISO compliance and GDPR 07:37:52 <andythenorth> very recommended 07:38:32 <Alberth> ah, sounds good, not sure if the scientific process needs to be that repeatable :p 07:39:01 <Alberth> being able to understand the result seems sufficient :p 07:39:53 *** triolus has quit IRC 07:42:28 <Alberth> work is also giving me lots of new stuff, which is good but takes a lot of effort 07:44:03 <Alberth> on the hobby side, not sure what to do, I have seen most of openttd, on the other hand, I have no new thing yet either, still looking where to go 07:49:08 <andythenorth> tank games :P 07:54:43 <Alberth> I am playing city build games :p 07:55:27 <Alberth> but it's very slow, at some point I will have enough of it 07:55:59 *** triolus has joined #openttd 08:03:51 *** triolus has quit IRC 08:22:36 <TrueBrain> Alberth: ever considered building websites? Or something like a Master Server? :P 08:23:52 <Alberth> back-ends could work 08:26:04 *** triolus has joined #openttd 08:26:05 <Alberth> no idea what a master server is doing :) 08:26:21 <TrueBrain> keeping track of the servers, telling the clients where to find them, and bringing them in contact :) 08:26:43 <Alberth> ah, that thing 08:26:58 *** triolus has quit IRC 08:26:59 <Alberth> written in ancient technology, I guess? 08:27:01 <TrueBrain> https://github.com/TrueBrain/OpenTTD-MS2-AS/blob/master/docs/overview.md 08:27:08 <TrueBrain> was my latest draft for a redesign 08:27:26 <TrueBrain> lately I have also been wondering if it could help to do NAT punching 08:27:39 <andythenorth> ooh TB 08:30:46 <Alberth> it mostly lists what is not there, it seems :p 08:33:21 <Alberth> needs much more detailing on the specs, I think 08:33:34 <TrueBrain> having specs before code is always good :) 08:34:10 <TrueBrain> if you are interested, I can help with the specs 08:34:51 <Alberth> I wouldn't know what to build at this point :p 08:35:13 <TrueBrain> nobody does :) 08:35:23 *** triolus has joined #openttd 08:35:27 <Alberth> I'll make a PR, ok? let's see what happens 08:35:47 <TrueBrain> go for it :) Anything I can help with, let me know 08:36:39 <Alberth> any description of the current thing somewhere? 08:36:54 <TrueBrain> svn-archive has the code 08:36:57 <TrueBrain> not sure if that has a readme :D 08:37:41 <Alberth> it's perhaps fairly simple, game request a bunch of server info, and that's it? 08:37:55 <Alberth> oh, and server sends a bunch of info, probably :p 08:38:00 <TrueBrain> yeah, so there are 2 things involved 08:38:01 <Alberth> ie game server 08:38:06 <TrueBrain> when a server comes online, it tells the MS he is 08:38:16 <TrueBrain> the MS has an updater running, every 5 minutes it checks all servers if they are still there 08:38:28 <TrueBrain> that last part retrieves information from the server, like time, map, players, .. 08:38:32 <TrueBrain> and updates that in his database 08:38:39 <TrueBrain> clients can poke the MS to get a full list of servers online 08:38:52 <Alberth> ah, I get it 08:39:12 <Alberth> so that should become https too I guess? 08:39:38 <TrueBrain> I am not really sure why I wrote that down inthat document tbh 08:39:43 <TrueBrain> https can be a pita, as you need to add a ssl library 08:39:50 <Alberth> yeah 08:39:50 <TrueBrain> that would be very good, but might be a lot of work too :P 08:40:04 <Alberth> no idea, never done anything https 08:40:07 <TrueBrain> I think I was more trying to make the point (to myself mostly I guess), that UDP is a shitty solution :P 08:40:15 *** triolus has quit IRC 08:40:19 <Alberth> fair enough 08:40:25 <TrueBrain> a long history of issues because we use UDP to query servers 08:40:28 <TrueBrain> while the game runs on TCP :P 08:40:37 <TrueBrain> so I am not sure what the best solution is 08:40:44 <TrueBrain> ah, on the old svn is a 'design.txt' 08:40:51 <Alberth> I'll write some thoughts in a PR, some feedback would be useful then 08:41:28 <TrueBrain> please do 08:41:40 *** triolus has joined #openttd 08:41:43 <TrueBrain> additionally, I am trying to move everything to a kubernetes like layout 08:41:54 <Alberth> I only have /home/alberth/corsix-th/design.txt :D 08:42:06 <TrueBrain> see your PM :) 08:42:26 <TrueBrain> anyway, a new MS would be most useful if it is one or more Docker containers; but that is optional :) 08:42:45 <Alberth> you're speaking magic words now 08:42:53 <TrueBrain> so optional it is ;) 08:43:02 <Alberth> however I am sure you know what it means :) 08:43:18 <TrueBrain> it is fine :) No need to jump from 0 to 100 km/h at once :P 08:43:33 <TrueBrain> I want the moon, but I am also already very happy with some bread :) 08:46:53 <Alberth> need to shop for that :) I'll do that first I think, get food for the weekend covered 08:47:05 <TrueBrain> :D 08:49:27 * LordAro waves 08:49:42 <TrueBrain> multi-stage Dockerfiles are cool :) 08:52:01 <LordAro> uh oh :p 08:53:01 <TrueBrain> but Docker always remains annoying .. his COPY never does what I want it to do 08:53:13 <TrueBrain> "owh, you want to copy a directory? Sure, let me copy the content of it for you ..." 09:01:49 * andythenorth kinda reading jekyll docs 09:01:53 <andythenorth> could use a nap though 09:02:02 <TrueBrain> it is .... early morning! :P 09:03:49 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 09:03:58 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 09:05:06 <Wolf01> Moin 09:05:09 <TrueBrain> permission denied error when I try to build with Jekyll .. hmmmm 09:05:10 <TrueBrain> morning Wolf01 09:06:12 <nielsm> morning 09:07:00 <TrueBrain> mornign nielsm 09:07:04 <TrueBrain> I cannot type :( 09:08:17 <andythenorth> I cannot brain 09:09:03 <Wolf01> I cannot lego 09:09:12 <TrueBrain> you win 09:09:43 <andythenorth> nielsm: how about also fixing theatres bug? :P https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/2664#issuecomment-379395204 09:10:58 <Wolf01> Must be a funny town 09:11:25 <andythenorth> never dull 09:11:52 *** triolus has quit IRC 09:12:34 <nielsm> andythenorth heh 09:12:50 <nielsm> isn't the problem simply that too few alternatives are available? 09:12:55 <andythenorth> might be, dunno 09:13:07 <andythenorth> I did read the code once, but that was a long time ago :) 09:15:44 <nielsm> but I agree that the town growth algorithm probably can use a revamp to try not making towns worse 09:16:41 <nielsm> somehow assign an economic value to buildings and avoid replacing buildings with good value 09:20:34 <Alberth> theaters are perhaps buildings with good economic value :) 09:21:08 <nielsm> sadly those things would need to be dynamic 09:21:20 <nielsm> i.e. towns should strive for a good composition of buildings 09:21:33 <Alberth> probably aim for diveristy in some way 09:22:18 <Alberth> but if it uses random, that should already be happening 09:23:02 <andythenorth> it can be done in newgrf 09:23:07 <andythenorth> but 09:23:13 <andythenorth> seems weird to fix game bugs in newgrf 09:23:16 *** triolus has joined #openttd 09:23:34 <Alberth> since that would be a likely implementation, it is likely useful to first find why it happens 09:23:53 <Alberth> andy: Like haveing support for non-default cargoes, you mean? 09:24:17 <andythenorth> the bug is that the theatres cause town population to plummet 09:24:41 <andythenorth> so counter-intuitively, before 1930, providing service to a town grows it physically, but destroys the population 09:25:40 <nielsm> https://0x0.st/sluM.png 09:25:46 <nielsm> buildings available 1930 or earlier 09:25:52 <nielsm> really not a lot of choice 09:25:53 <Alberth> somebody didn't think theatres would be popular :p 09:27:40 <nielsm> could maybe introduce a new house flag for "do not build close to another of the same type" 09:27:59 <nielsm> useful for cultural buildings that don't grow population 09:28:07 <nielsm> theatres, parks, statues 09:28:19 <andythenorth> so there are only 5 options in zone 4 09:28:33 <andythenorth> so the shrinking population problem only occurs for specific town sizes 09:28:58 <andythenorth> 35 popn theatres replace 100 popn shops and offices 09:29:16 <Alberth> it's weird that you get entire streets of theatres imho 09:29:19 <andythenorth> oh 09:29:28 <andythenorth> the min build year is interesting 09:29:34 <andythenorth> so what happens *before* 1930 09:29:37 <andythenorth> towns still get built 09:29:53 <andythenorth> Alberth: it could just be confirmation basis on a genuinely random pattern 09:29:57 <andythenorth> but it's bad gameplay 09:30:15 <LordAro> is it just a case of buildings in the base set having an introduction dates set to 1930 because TTD could never be played that far back? 09:30:29 <andythenorth> LordAro: that's what I wonder 09:30:30 <Alberth> with 5 kinds of houses, you'd expect some house here and there in-between? 09:30:32 <nielsm> TTD started in 1950 09:30:34 <nielsm> TTO in 1930 09:31:03 <Alberth> maybe it makes selections based on available space or so? 09:31:28 <nielsm> yeah that table from the newgrf wiki is not quite right 09:31:36 <nielsm> lots of buildings have min_year=0 09:31:55 <andythenorth> I have found MakeTownHouse 09:32:00 <andythenorth> but can't find a list of default houses 09:32:09 <nielsm> town_land.h 09:32:12 <nielsm> tables folder 09:32:13 <Alberth> src/table/ 09:32:20 <nielsm> end of file 09:32:33 <andythenorth> I would never have guessed there :) 09:32:57 <Alberth> everything table is in 'table' :) 09:34:35 <nielsm> the size 95 "shops and offices" are really from 1930 09:35:27 <andythenorth> so I think the effect is random, and I've screenshotted pathological cases 09:35:31 <nielsm> only the size 100 "shops and offices" and the theatre are available before 1930 09:35:39 <andythenorth> https://bugs.openttd.org/task/2664/getfile/10774/too_many_theatres_2.png 09:35:58 <andythenorth> ^ that one seems to have even mix of theatres and two colours of size 100 shops and offices 09:36:03 <andythenorth> 3 colours 09:36:13 <nielsm> yep 09:36:21 <nielsm> that's the only two available in zone 4 before 1930 09:36:33 <LordAro> maybe those buildings with min_year ~1931 could be set to 0 09:36:44 <andythenorth> and when the town grows, it might replace 100 popn building with 35? 09:37:16 <andythenorth> could just weight it by adding more entries for shops and offices, same sprites 09:37:26 <nielsm> can't add mose house ids 09:39:15 <andythenorth> guard that can't replace high popn building with lower popn? 09:39:28 <andythenorth> might have unexpected consequences :P 09:39:48 <nielsm> occasionally new parks etc should pop up in a city centre 09:41:29 <nielsm> but a check for "no other cultural buildings nearby" (new flag) (nearby meaning tile radius 2 or 3) could work I think 09:44:10 <LordAro> still lots of magic numbers in town_land.h, interestingly 09:54:15 <Alberth> it's ancient, it's stable, don't touch it :) 09:56:28 <LordAro> :p 10:04:38 <andythenorth> just imagine all the magic numbers in universe.h 10:04:47 <andythenorth> given that we're all living in a simulation :P 10:05:20 <LordAro> turns out they are actually already defined 10:05:28 <LordAro> but they're defined in decimal, not hex 10:05:35 <LordAro> so it's a little difficult to work out which is which :p 10:06:31 * andythenorth wonders how many physical phenomena can be attributed to refactoring attempts :P 10:06:42 <andythenorth> in the underlying code for reality 10:09:31 <Alberth> could be the black matter :) 10:09:45 <Alberth> new bananas even has code :o 10:09:52 <andythenorth> everything is awesome 10:10:00 <LordAro> :o 10:15:46 <andythenorth> so I should try this town gen patch eh? 10:15:52 <andythenorth> and mac ICU fixes 10:15:59 <andythenorth> so what do I do? 10:16:08 <andythenorth> add them as remotes to my clone of LordAro's branch? 10:16:24 <andythenorth> I can't compile trunk 10:17:02 <LordAro> uh 10:17:30 <LordAro> probably check out those patches/PR, then apply my branch on top of it 10:17:45 <nielsm> wasn't it a workaround to pass CXXFLAGS=-std=c++11 to configure too? 10:17:50 <LordAro> that would work 10:18:00 <LordAro> i was going to update the PR to just pass that regardless 10:19:24 *** matt21347 has joined #openttd 10:34:54 <LordAro> so it turns out not all sprites are actually defined 10:42:30 <Wolf01> In CS how do you usually limit the area of operation for emergency vehicles? I noticed all my ev take the highway to go on the other side of the map where there is already an unused station, and when all the vehicles are around, unused stations spawn new vehicles to go on the other side of the map too... 10:44:05 <LordAro> in fact, basically only the temperate sprites are defined 10:44:28 <nielsm> Wolf01: well you don't... I think there is a mod that lets you restrict them to the district (?) they are placed in 10:45:15 <Wolf01> I'll try with traffic manager, but that's a lot of work 10:58:15 <Wolf01> They still seem to move around, but in reduced number... I lost half of the population because hearses were stuck in the highway and had like 400 dead people around 11:05:25 <Alberth> make emergency vehicle lanes? 11:05:44 <Alberth> no idea if that's possible though :) 11:05:57 <Wolf01> Not in highways 11:06:09 <Wolf01> Ok, it is, with traffic manager 11:07:17 <Alberth> block them from using the highway 11:07:28 <Wolf01> That's what I did... no success 11:07:57 <Wolf01> Emergency vehicles are above the law... 11:08:34 <Alberth> flying above the highway would be more useful :) 11:08:39 <Wolf01> Banned trucks on a highway exit and they don't use it, banned recycling trucks and tey don't give a fuck 11:09:06 <Alberth> lol 11:09:23 <Alberth> send police in, and the money rolls in :p 11:10:07 *** Progman has joined #openttd 11:54:43 <andythenorth> hmm 11:54:49 <andythenorth> my fancy new backup drive is not very fancy 11:55:44 <andythenorth> it only writes at about 20MB/s 11:56:27 <andythenorth> internal drive is 2500MB/s 11:56:36 <Alberth> not-so-fast usb cable? 11:56:47 <andythenorth> it's supposed to be USB 3.1 11:56:53 <andythenorth> read is ok 500MB/s 11:57:30 <Alberth> as long as you dont produce more than 20MB/s new information, it will work :p 11:57:34 <andythenorth> it's quite an old SSD in a new case, maybe it's the SSD 11:57:36 <andythenorth> oof 11:57:48 <andythenorth> the quest for faster backups continues 11:58:17 <Alberth> no idea how SSD write time relates to read times or age 11:58:42 <Alberth> 500MB/s read sounds like your usb cable is working as intended though 12:02:11 <Alberth> (assuming you're not sneakily reading from computer RAM cache) 12:14:40 <nielsm> SSD writes usually go to a buffer, and then the chipset shuffles things around to actually put the data in flash memory, since flash can only be erased in large pages at a time that can mean it needs to read a bunch of existing data and rewrite it with the new data added 12:14:52 <nielsm> and so when that buffer fills up, write speed drops 12:15:12 <nielsm> (seen from the host perspective) 12:17:14 <andythenorth> so it's probably 5 years old SSD 12:17:19 <andythenorth> might be small buffer 12:18:02 <nielsm> and flash cells also degrade with use, and data will slowly fade from flash cells too 12:18:22 <nielsm> flash does need refresh once in a while, like dram, just not very often 12:19:01 <nielsm> (and it depends on density and whether you're doing single-level or multi-level cells) 12:20:07 <LordAro> i don't think andythenorth is doing the sort of hardcore read/writes to wear out an SSD in only 5 years 12:20:19 <andythenorth> it's just a backup drive 12:20:22 <nielsm> yeah likely not 12:20:40 <andythenorth> I suspect that (1) it's old (2) USB 3.1 is a lot slower than PCI-E 12:21:02 <andythenorth> it claims 10Gb/s 12:21:25 <andythenorth> @calc 20 / 1250 12:21:25 <nielsm> but really, don't use flash storage for backup, especially if you plan on leaving it offline for long periods 12:21:25 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.016 12:21:31 <LordAro> bet some part of the chain is not USB3.1 speeds 12:21:45 <LordAro> how is it connected at the other end? USB3.1 wasn't a thing 5 years ago 12:22:08 <andythenorth> it's a USB 3.1 enclosure with SATA (don't know what SATA spec the drive has) 12:22:09 <michi_cc> andythenorth: There's a neat marketing trick to write USB 3.1 Gen 1 on stuff to mean USB 3.0 speed. 12:22:32 <andythenorth> this one claimed 10Gb/s :) 12:22:35 <andythenorth> in the marketing 12:22:54 <michi_cc> There's no SATA faster than 600Mb/s in theory an about 550MB/s in practice. 12:23:09 <michi_cc> s/b/B/g, sorry 12:23:46 <andythenorth> other people are reporting 300MB/s with this enclosure 12:24:27 <andythenorth> well the mystery can continue another day 12:24:30 <andythenorth> backup is done 12:49:25 *** lugo has joined #openttd 13:27:25 *** acklen has quit IRC 13:27:40 *** Maarten has quit IRC 13:27:51 *** Maarten has joined #openttd 13:28:01 *** ccfreak2k has quit IRC 13:29:55 *** triolus has quit IRC 13:29:55 *** greeter has quit IRC 13:29:55 *** rocky1138 has quit IRC 13:29:55 *** quiznilo has quit IRC 13:29:55 *** Tharbakim has quit IRC 13:29:55 *** dwfreed has quit IRC 13:30:45 *** acklen has joined #openttd 13:31:13 *** triolus has joined #openttd 13:31:13 *** quiznilo has joined #openttd 13:31:13 *** Tharbakim has joined #openttd 13:31:13 *** greeter has joined #openttd 13:31:50 *** dwfreed has joined #openttd 14:34:26 <Wolf01> https://xkcd.com/2070/ lol... distance2banana 14:49:16 <Alberth> let's take some random text fragments and merge them :p 15:49:06 *** triolus has quit IRC 16:03:55 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 16:05:21 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 16:23:20 *** Alberth has left #openttd 16:26:23 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 16:26:23 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 16:33:19 *** tokai has quit IRC 16:38:38 *** dwfreed is now known as Guest2700 16:38:38 *** Guest2700 is now known as Guest2701 16:38:40 *** dwfreed has joined #openttd 16:40:00 *** snail_UES_ is now known as Guest2702 16:40:01 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 16:40:04 *** Guest2701 has quit IRC 16:43:31 *** Guest2702 has quit IRC 16:44:06 *** Tharbakim has quit IRC 17:09:02 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 17:21:12 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 17:21:51 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2714 17:21:53 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:27:49 *** Guest2714 has quit IRC 17:52:48 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:54:36 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2719 17:54:38 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:57:54 *** Guest2719 has quit IRC 18:09:33 *** Wolf01 is now known as Guest2721 18:09:35 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 18:09:58 *** lugo has quit IRC 18:13:36 *** Guest2721 has quit IRC 18:33:56 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 18:48:11 *** wodencafe has quit IRC 18:49:51 *** glx has joined #openttd 18:49:51 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 19:19:56 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 19:46:54 *** wodencafe has joined #openttd 20:24:38 *** wodencafe has quit IRC 20:24:50 *** wodencafe has joined #openttd 20:27:44 *** wodencafe has joined #openttd 20:29:36 *** Progman has quit IRC 20:34:05 *** wodencafe has quit IRC 21:03:41 *** lugo has joined #openttd 21:05:05 *** wodencafe has joined #openttd 21:11:44 *** lugo has quit IRC 21:58:28 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 22:00:29 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 22:58:24 *** lugo has joined #openttd 23:08:27 *** nielsm has quit IRC 23:32:39 *** matt21347 has quit IRC 23:43:24 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd