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00:35:17 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 01:20:13 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 01:41:47 *** denwa has joined #openttd 01:42:09 *** denwa has left #openttd 01:42:43 *** denwa has joined #openttd 02:12:43 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 02:16:09 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:28:28 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 02:41:34 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:38:19 *** glx has quit IRC 04:33:43 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 04:55:11 *** tokai has joined #openttd 04:55:11 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 05:02:17 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 05:03:58 *** tokai has quit IRC 05:06:56 *** tokai has joined #openttd 05:06:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 05:11:52 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 05:11:52 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 05:15:43 *** tokai has quit IRC 06:46:54 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 07:00:01 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 07:24:01 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 07:26:52 *** Progman has joined #openttd 07:30:15 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 07:41:44 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:43:22 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 08:15:48 *** cHawk has joined #openttd 08:44:37 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 10:13:38 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 11:34:50 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy updated pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/fhGxd 11:37:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] btzy commented on pull request #7028: Feature: Option to group vehicle list by shared orders https://git.io/JJBtf 11:51:58 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Eddi-z commented on pull request #8278: Feature: decitiles/day velocity unit https://git.io/JJBt8 12:03:44 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 12:07:42 <nielsm> looking at my modular airports notes again... 12:07:48 *** glx has joined #openttd 12:07:49 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 12:11:37 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 12:13:42 <nielsm> things an implementation would need: map storage format, definitions for tiles and modules, drawing code for the airport tiles, UI for placing modules, UI for viewing status/validity of the airport, storage and validation of the movement paths, converting existing airports to new format 12:13:53 <nielsm> and I'm sure there's more stuff 12:14:30 <nielsm> well actually making the vehicles use the movement paths and pick an appropriate entry point 12:15:25 <glx> isn't there already some kind of state machine for airports ? 12:15:42 <nielsm> there is, and I'm not sure a modular format would be easy to convert to it 12:15:56 <nielsm> at the very least it would probably need some extension 12:15:56 <glx> ah yes modular is another story 12:16:08 <Eddi|zuHause> it would probably be easier to convert the old format to a modular one 12:16:29 <nielsm> these notes I'm looking at again: https://wiki.openttd.org/User:Nielsmh/Modular_airports 12:16:51 <glx> yes an entry/exit info per tile, with checks with neighbours 12:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the more modular it gets, the less likely you can ensure deadlock-free operation 12:19:54 <nielsm> I think some rules regarding planes moving to takeoff get priority, reserve their path, can make it pretty safe 12:20:19 <nielsm> so they should always be able to empty out eventually 12:20:38 <Eddi|zuHause> on radar: might allow planes to take off/land in quicker succession if present? 12:21:26 <nielsm> I think that'd be difficult 12:21:48 <nielsm> unless it's just that without radar there's an extra delay inserted on runways or similar 12:22:04 <nielsm> maybe only allow multiple runways to be reserved simultaneously if a radar is present 12:22:24 <nielsm> so without radar you can't have two planes land at the same time, or one land and one take off at the same time 12:24:21 <Eddi|zuHause> this all blends in the other issue that is occasionally requested: station buildings that have gameplay effects (warehouses, waiting areas, restaurants, etc.) 12:24:58 <nielsm> the movements graph for the airport would probably need to be stored in the savegame, to allow aircraft in the airport to refer to specific nodes and edges without depending on the graph being generated exactly the same after load 12:25:18 <nielsm> and keep reservation data properly 12:29:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and we need decorative station tiles that work for rail, road, dock and airport stations 12:30:28 <Eddi|zuHause> which causes a problem for "legacy" newgrf stations 12:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> so you can easily make 3 separate projects out of this 12:33:36 <Eddi|zuHause> 1) modular movement patterns, 2) generalizing decorative tiles, 3) tiles that have side effects 12:36:26 <nielsm> hm yeah making old airports use new movements might be the first step 12:36:37 <nielsm> before trying to construct movements from tile layouts 12:48:45 <b_jonas> so as a drawback, the wind direction would vary, and you'd have to construct runways in at least two directions so that airplanes can always take off and land? 12:49:18 <nielsm> that would be unfun 12:49:29 <b_jonas> nielsm: "without radar you can't have two planes land at the same time" => what stops you from just having two airports then? 12:49:53 <nielsm> that's two stations, works entirely different 12:51:25 <glx> usually noise level won't allow you to build 2 airports 12:52:28 <b_jonas> oh, as for station buildings. I love the graphics of the Industrial stations renewal newgrf, it lets me build different stations for different cargo. And I found that it at least partly supports FIRS, in that it can display the engineering supplies with the graphics that was made for goods, 12:53:16 <b_jonas> but I'd like some more newgrfs for this, perhaps adding stations with FIRS-specific cargos, perhaps with just more variations of the same thing, so if you can recommend railway station newgrfs like that, I'd be happy. 12:53:33 <b_jonas> also for airports, I loaded the newgrf that has rotated versions of the standard airports 12:53:43 <b_jonas> glx: hmm ok 12:55:26 *** Progman has quit IRC 13:21:14 <nielsm> ouch https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Stations#Road_routing_.2819_-_reserved_for_future_use.29 13:25:56 <frosch123> ttdp stuff 13:26:27 <frosch123> https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/VariationalAction2/Bridges <- more of it :) 13:30:53 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: maybe we should think about deprecating the current station spec, and develop a more object-like one 13:32:24 <frosch123> that's a common pattern. when people do not understand something, i believe it would be easier if they rewrite it 13:32:34 <frosch123> *they 13:33:34 <frosch123> maybe you should first try to add some features to objects, which people asked for years, and which stations support 13:33:48 <frosch123> like dragg-able any-size objects 13:33:57 <frosch123> partial demolition and more 13:55:58 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 13:56:01 *** Flygon has quit IRC 13:58:31 <andythenorth> hmm do logs work? 13:58:55 <andythenorth> I posted Train Whack updates this morning at 9AM UK time or so 13:59:13 <frosch123> yes, i pressed F5 about a hundred times 13:59:18 <frosch123> never got 2 snowploughs 13:59:31 <andythenorth> testing the game was quite repetitive 13:59:39 <andythenorth> testing randomised games always is :P 14:04:48 <frosch123> You scored 1031240! Snowplough bonus: 2 = 4x score multiplier <- yay, finally 14:05:06 <frosch123> how much bandwidth did that cost? 14:05:35 <frosch123> one of the snowploughs is even at the front 14:07:26 <andythenorth> wonder what my AWS bill will be 14:29:36 <michi_cc> andythenorth: The game is missing an "Share your result" link, how am I supposed to show of my awesome creation otherwise? :P 14:29:44 <andythenorth> I considered it 14:29:53 <andythenorth> I don't know how many params I can fit on the query string 14:29:56 <andythenorth> iirc there's a limit 14:30:09 <andythenorth> I could hash table *every* possible combination of vehicles? 14:31:54 <andythenorth> hmm, 2048 chars per url 14:32:06 <michi_cc> I see you use random(). If it is possible in JS, you'd just need to set/read the radmon seed. 14:32:18 <andythenorth> maybe :) 14:32:28 <andythenorth> vehicle IDs are 0...9999 range, there are max 15 in a row, 10 rows 14:32:45 <andythenorth> so 600 chars, plus boilerplate separators 14:32:54 <andythenorth> might fit in a query string 14:33:05 <andythenorth> if I just did one row, that would be trivial 14:34:08 <andythenorth> hmm, I could do a service where you take a screenshot, then I read the pixels, and detect the IDs from them 14:34:27 <andythenorth> I suspect that's not very hard if an uncompressed PNG is used 14:34:34 <b_jonas> you can always just use a POST request if you want more parameters in the request than fit in an url 14:34:47 <andythenorth> you can post to JS on S3 now? :o 14:35:03 <andythenorth> probably have to use a Lambda :P 14:35:06 <andythenorth> this might get out of hand 14:36:00 <andythenorth> I like the hash table idea, there are between 10 and 150 vehicles displayed, and there are 496 vehicles to choose from 14:36:06 <andythenorth> how many hashes do I need? o_O 14:36:13 * andythenorth never did hashing 14:36:48 <andythenorth> this will be nCr or some other thing I should have paid more attention to 14:38:25 <andythenorth> hashing each row is probably simpler :P 14:38:47 <andythenorth> that's just 15 entries, with 496 possible values per entry 14:39:52 <andythenorth> 496 ^ 15? 14:40:43 <andythenorth> @calc 496 ^ 15 14:40:43 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number. 14:40:47 <frosch123> just stick to 3 digits per vehicle 14:41:05 <frosch123> 10 query params, one for each row. each a string of 15x3 chars 14:41:20 <andythenorth> I am using the newgrf IDs currently which are widely spaced 14:41:24 <andythenorth> I could reduce it though 14:41:41 <frosch123> then use base64 14:41:44 <frosch123> @calc 64**2 14:41:44 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 4096 14:41:45 <frosch123> @calc 64**3 14:41:46 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 262144 14:42:23 <andythenorth> it's here if anyone wants to fork :P https://github.com/andythenorth/iron-horse/blob/master/src/docs_templates/train_whack.pt 14:43:02 <frosch123> what's the hero unit? 14:43:08 <andythenorth> Bootstrap thing 14:43:10 <andythenorth> css class name 14:43:14 <andythenorth> big blue box 14:43:27 <frosch123> i thought it was some cheat to win at train whack 14:43:32 <andythenorth> if only 14:44:00 <andythenorth> TBH, for rebuilding permutations, a different design might be better :) 14:44:08 <andythenorth> this is kind of top-down or something 14:44:17 <andythenorth> whichever kind of coding is wrong in comp. sci. class 14:44:24 <andythenorth> I failed the only comp. sci. class I did 14:44:41 <andythenorth> I got the result, but I did the wrong kind of coding, I didn't go to the lecture 14:46:23 <frosch123> top-down for new stuff. bottom-up for established stuff that you never want to deal with again 14:47:09 <andythenorth> it was some parse-data-and-draw-a-chart thing 14:47:19 <andythenorth> so I just parsed the data and drew the chart 14:47:37 <andythenorth> I was supposed to create some charting component or something, and a data parsing module 14:47:42 <andythenorth> then connect them together 14:48:15 <andythenorth> Comp. Sci. seemed moderately less actual science than the Political Sci. degree I actually finished 14:48:18 <andythenorth> and more fashion 14:49:05 <andythenorth> I wonder if I can create an ephemeral high score table with an AWS queue? 14:50:03 <andythenorth> "AWS SQS message retention period is 14 days" 14:50:41 <frosch123> did you add code for local storage, to make results worse the longer you play? 14:50:55 <andythenorth> no, that would require a whole load of PECR compliance crap 14:51:12 <andythenorth> I'd need to do a Data Privacy Impact Assessment, appoint a Data Protection Officer 14:51:17 <andythenorth> get a privacy policy etc 14:51:23 <frosch123> oh, sorry, probably should not have mentioned that 14:51:30 <andythenorth> oh jeez, I'm still collecting logs 14:51:37 <andythenorth> I must remember not to look at them 14:52:13 <andythenorth> I probably should set a retention period and add them to my data register too 14:53:27 <andythenorth> the internet was fun once :P 15:04:34 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 15:29:10 *** Progman has joined #openttd 15:39:00 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 16:34:33 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 17:45:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JJB88 17:45:45 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 17:46:38 *** Progman has quit IRC 18:25:09 <andythenorth> anyone won TW yet? 18:29:32 <frosch123> maybe aws did 18:32:29 <andythenorth> billing forecast: 18:32:33 <andythenorth> for July 18:32:52 <andythenorth> it's *way* cheaper with cloudfront in front of s3 18:33:39 <frosch123> what's the exchange rate between $ and TW points? 18:34:03 <Eddi|zuHause> does it have blockchain? 18:34:03 <andythenorth> no idea 18:34:06 <andythenorth> are they tradeable? 18:34:11 <andythenorth> wow 18:34:21 <andythenorth> for June :o 18:34:22 <andythenorth> "Personal AWS (502284999405) costs are up .52 (6,596%)" 18:34:28 <andythenorth> scary % increase 18:34:33 <frosch123> i got about a million in the best game, is that more than aws earned? 18:34:45 <andythenorth> yes 18:34:55 <Wolf01> https://imgur.com/JoAkWVh <- andythenorth: got all 6 metro in the same consist 18:34:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no highscore, how would i keep track? 18:35:05 <andythenorth> has anyone cloned it yet? 18:35:09 <andythenorth> 2048 got a lot of copies 18:35:57 <frosch123> but 2048 was a copy of 3s 18:36:04 <frosch123> what is TW a copy of? 18:36:10 <frosch123> is it original? 18:36:23 <andythenorth> I'm not sure 18:36:29 <andythenorth> I didn't invent it :P 18:36:31 <andythenorth> I'm sure 18:36:47 <frosch123> do you have distribution rights? 18:37:08 <andythenorth> I no longer discuss licensing issues :D 18:37:22 <andythenorth> is TW more or less fun than OpenTTD? 18:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> no 18:38:26 <frosch123> today i player a lot more tw than ottd 18:38:50 <andythenorth> I played a lot of OpenTTD this week 18:39:00 <andythenorth> 70 years of game or so 18:39:01 <frosch123> is it easier to add more trains to tw than to ottd? 18:39:03 <milek7> what is TW? 18:39:13 <andythenorth> frosch123 pretty much identical amount of effort, oddly 18:39:24 <andythenorth> milek7 you had to ask :( 18:39:24 <andythenorth> oof 18:39:34 <frosch123> milek7: https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/train_whack.html?match_base_track_type=false&boring_mode=false&sprite_size_factor=2 18:39:54 <andythenorth> someone here actually gave me the idea, but I forget who 18:40:10 <andythenorth> there are random sprites in the header on most pages https://www.grf.farm/iron-horse/dev/html/trains.html 18:40:16 <andythenorth> someone was hitting refresh on them 18:41:10 <frosch123> btw. "boring mode" is perfectly labeled 18:41:22 <frosch123> i tried it, and it was pretty accurate 18:41:23 <andythenorth> I thought you might like that 18:41:26 <andythenorth> the name 18:42:06 <frosch123> can you disable breakdowns? 18:42:21 <andythenorth> in the web inspector yes 18:42:25 <andythenorth> you have to hack the source 18:42:30 <andythenorth> I don't know the license on that 18:42:37 <andythenorth> you might have to send me your modifications 18:43:04 <andythenorth> GPL has this weirdly vague handwaving away about "html etc aren't really code, so we'll just ignore them" 18:43:35 <frosch123> i thought everything is solved by "source is the favorite format for editing" 18:43:43 <andythenorth> yes! 18:44:05 <andythenorth> anyway just don't distribute, you'll be fine :P 18:44:21 <frosch123> my favorite format is putting weird idea into someone else's head, and see what comes out 18:44:30 <Timberwolf> This is great until you're doing serious retrocomputing and either punching cards or toggling front panel switches. 18:44:35 <andythenorth> I think my sense of lolz is a bit distorted recently, what with COVID and PECR so forth 18:44:59 * andythenorth making simplified mode for Iron Horse, clearly a good sign? 18:45:28 <andythenorth> I should call it pikka mode :P 18:55:38 <Timberwolf> Is there any way using sprite stacks to set pixels of the target sprite back to transparent/index 0? I'm guessing not, the only thing I could think of that might actually write a transparent pixel is using a recolour map to map something else to 0x00, but looks like the colour remap takes place before the transparency check. 18:56:09 * Timberwolf was looking for a lazy way to resolve the "long vehicles glitch in tunnels" problem. 18:58:54 <frosch123> Timberwolf: no, you cannot recolour to transparent 18:58:56 <Timberwolf> enorth> in the web inspector yes 18:59:00 <frosch123> recolouring to color 0 is just black 18:59:02 <Timberwolf> Oops, paste fail. 18:59:08 <Timberwolf> Thanks. 19:00:09 <frosch123> ottd can clip sprite (as it does for ground tiles on halftile foundations, and in a few other places), but that is not available to newgrf 19:04:11 <Timberwolf> Heh. I accidentally held down shift instead of ctrl and got a cost estimate for setting the start date for my timetable :) 19:04:41 <andythenorth> lol 19:04:45 <andythenorth> was it £1m? 19:04:51 <b_jonas> that's a good thing. I want shift to cancel everything, even things where the game can't give me a cost estimate, for intuitive UI 19:05:25 <b_jonas> that reminds me 19:05:26 <Timberwolf> Yeah, it's consistent and it was also correct. The estimate was £0, and it did indeed cost me £0. 19:06:20 <b_jonas> I wonder if it would make sense to have some way to do land raise/lower/flatten/dynamite tools in such a way that it refuses to do expensive things (for early game), as in destroying water or city property 19:06:43 <b_jonas> though for dynamite I'd really like some much more fine-grained control 19:06:49 <b_jonas> where I can tell what exactly to destroy and what not 19:07:02 <Timberwolf> Kind of like minimum bank balance for autorenew, except with terraforming? 19:07:30 <Timberwolf> Making it intuitive for new players would be hard, although I guess the error could mention how to override it. 19:07:33 <andythenorth> 'autosave' 19:07:34 <andythenorth> :P 19:07:50 <frosch123> b_jonas: but tycoons are mad and throw dynamite in all directions 19:08:25 <b_jonas> frosch123: yes, and I want that as an option too, for late game, an option to destroy transmitters and whole cities, even if it costs a lot of money 19:08:35 <b_jonas> but I don't want to misclick with the dynamite and lose all my money that way 19:09:05 <frosch123> nah, i like transmitters 19:09:15 <frosch123> there must be limitations, otherwise there is no game 19:09:49 <b_jonas> frosch123: there are too many transmitters, I hate the map generator for it, I hate it as a game mechanic because it makes you want to generate flat maps just to avoid transmitters 19:09:54 * andythenorth just plays with magic bulldozer on most of the time 19:10:04 <andythenorth> sometimes that causes new problems :P 19:10:06 <b_jonas> I do use magic bulldozer occasionally 19:10:09 <frosch123> i prefer permaban for people playing on flat maps 19:10:12 <b_jonas> I don't leave it on most of the time 19:10:42 <b_jonas> frosch123: I don't want a flat map either, and that's why I magic bulldozered most of the transmitters and lighthouses, 19:11:03 <andythenorth> I played 88 game years this week, there's not much I'd bother changing about OpentTTD currently 19:11:04 <b_jonas> so I think it's the map generation's fault 19:11:20 <Timberwolf> Awful gameplay idea: can only start/stop vehicles or change orders if they have line of sight to a transmitter. 19:11:23 <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, it's certainly very playable, I like it 19:11:29 <andythenorth> vehicles should show speed at the start of their window destination string, not the end 19:11:33 <andythenorth> I tried to patch that, but failed 19:11:35 <b_jonas> but it's not perfect 19:11:39 <andythenorth> otherwise game is kinda done 19:11:51 <Timberwolf> Additional awful gameplay idea: transmitter based fog of war. 19:11:56 <andythenorth> lol 19:12:00 <andythenorth> GS 19:12:18 <andythenorth> we should add a bool to each tile - draw/don't draw 19:12:24 <andythenorth> like Neverending Story 19:12:27 <b_jonas> Timberwolf: ah yes, and pylons to supply vehicles and infrastructure with psi 19:12:28 <andythenorth> then let GS turn them on 19:12:50 <andythenorth> anyway OpenTTD is kinda done, we should stop changing it 19:12:53 <andythenorth> and fix FIRS 19:13:11 <andythenorth> and I should fix the Bananas skin but eh 19:13:19 <frosch123> maybe construction cost should scale with the distance to your hq 19:13:26 <frosch123> corruption fees 19:13:33 <frosch123> punishing 4k noobs 19:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted statues to be replaced by branch offices 19:13:59 <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, I'm playing FIRS now, I was asking for station newgrfs similar to industrial station renewal but optimized for it 19:14:05 <andythenorth> CHIPS 19:14:10 <andythenorth> and the object sets also 19:14:18 <Timberwolf> Start merging in features from Civ type games. 19:14:33 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: oh, I'd like that, that would mean I can destroy my own branch offices 19:14:36 <andythenorth> I am trying to figure out a pollution type mechanic 19:14:39 <b_jonas> currently I am not allowed to destroy my statues 19:14:39 <Timberwolf> "Senington Heights has revolted due to low ratings! Senington Heights is now owned by Frufingwell Transport." 19:14:41 <andythenorth> like original SimCity 19:15:23 <andythenorth> TBH, I think the only decent feature we should add is the ability to launch a rocket 19:15:28 <frosch123> Timberwolf: i was worried you wanted to make it turn based 19:15:29 <andythenorth> I am quite serious 19:15:43 <andythenorth> complete arbitrary goals; launch rocket 19:15:53 <frosch123> andythenorth: add it to the website 19:15:55 <b_jonas> andythenorth: yes, that could work 19:16:02 <andythenorth> frosch123 the suggestions wiki? 19:16:04 <frosch123> you can copy the code from the web 19:16:19 <andythenorth> shall we just move the game into the browser? 19:16:23 <frosch123> andythenorth: no, add the rocket to the website 19:16:25 <andythenorth> then we can just edit the wasm live 19:16:45 <andythenorth> rocket.openttd.org 19:16:45 <frosch123> andythenorth: https://factorio.com/ <- scroll to the bottom, and click the rocket 19:16:56 <andythenorth> oh happy days 19:16:59 <frosch123> firs docs should have the same, with trains 19:17:02 <andythenorth> I used to have a stupid thing like that 19:17:05 <andythenorth> I'll find it 19:17:23 <frosch123> click a vehicle, and it drops and crashes to the fllor 19:17:48 <andythenorth> pure CSS animations? o_O 19:17:56 <andythenorth> I can't be bothered to find the stupid web things I used to do 19:18:00 <andythenorth> they were so stupid 19:18:23 <frosch123> weren't they in flash? and noone has flash anymore 19:19:03 <frosch123> is there some permafrost storage for flash players somewhere? so future archaeologist can play flash games? 19:20:03 <frosch123> is there a rosetta stone with carvings in c, java and flash? 19:20:08 <andythenorth> I think this was my favourite https://grf.farm/stupid/howwide/howwide.html 19:21:52 <frosch123> it has frames, must be old 19:21:58 <frosch123> but quite andyish 19:21:58 <andythenorth> very 19:22:32 <andythenorth> dunno if this will work https://grf.farm/stupid/click/index.html 19:22:44 <andythenorth> oh the days when we just used to make stuff and upload it to a server :P 19:23:43 <frosch123> seems to work, kind of surprising 19:23:51 <frosch123> i expected it would block all that positiojning stuff 19:23:53 <andythenorth> some of the window sizing isn't quite right 19:24:01 <andythenorth> also screens got a lot bigger 19:24:07 <andythenorth> that was probably made for 800x600 or so 19:24:34 <nielsm> <Eddi|zuHause> i always wanted statues to be replaced by branch offices <- it would perhaps make sense to replace the "build statue" town action with a statue object you just place 19:24:42 <nielsm> but that would probably break AIs :P 19:24:58 <nielsm> but you could then have different objects that have "statue effect" 19:25:32 <b_jonas> like statues in Settlers game, as in expensive buildings that increase the morale but do nothing more direct than that? 19:26:06 <andythenorth> this is a bit broken https://grf.farm/stupid/compcult/clickthis.html 19:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you must have played different settlers games... 19:26:20 <andythenorth> very design-of-a-certain-era 19:26:22 <frosch123> b_jonas: are statures the new gold? 19:26:39 <frosch123> i s1 you deposited 2 gold for 3 soldiers in houses 19:26:40 <andythenorth> ha my old site is quite similar style to OpenTTD site :) 19:27:08 <b_jonas> frosch123: you need gold to built them 19:27:08 <andythenorth> orange and dark grey, with stripes, was a thing 19:27:11 <b_jonas> they're gold statues 19:27:19 <b_jonas> well, gilded 19:27:45 <andythenorth> looks like I used to draw pixel crap too 19:27:50 <Eddi|zuHause> in settlers 2 you would deliver gold to houses, and when they are used, one soldier of each rank in the house would get promoted 19:28:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so it worked more efficiently in larger houses 19:28:09 <frosch123> andythenorth: i made a screenshot of the old-old ottd website, before it was replaced by the old website 19:28:14 <andythenorth> pls show 19:28:18 <frosch123> but i lost it :( 19:28:25 <frosch123> it's probably somewhere on some disk 19:28:43 <andythenorth> wayback machine? 19:29:23 <frosch123> https://web.archive.org/web/20060220165624/http://www.openttd.org/ 19:29:36 <frosch123> i like the false-coloured header 19:29:41 <andythenorth> so good 19:29:59 <andythenorth> we won a prize! 19:30:24 <frosch123> i think we won hup 3 years in a row 19:30:42 <andythenorth> when was that, 2006? 19:30:44 <frosch123> maybe we got disqualified 19:30:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: old homepage was started in 2008 19:31:06 <frosch123> so that page is 2006-2008 19:31:28 <andythenorth> looks like I joined forums about 2004 19:31:33 <andythenorth> but I didn't really understand the project 19:31:49 <frosch123> did you play ttdp then? 19:31:57 <andythenorth> nah, I was on a mac 19:32:13 <frosch123> https://web.archive.org/web/20040501060554/http://www.openttd.org/ <- oh shit, look at the name 19:32:16 <frosch123> it's a scam 19:32:31 <andythenorth> check the SSL :P 19:32:57 <frosch123> so, ottd started on 2004-03-06, and it had a website on 2004-04-23 19:33:07 <andythenorth> speedy 19:33:32 <frosch123> considering the headers, i bet most of the text is still on current website :p 19:33:38 *** Progman has joined #openttd 19:33:47 <andythenorth> this is a pattern right? In all projects, the old guard do less, and browse the archives more? :P 19:34:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think i've ever seen this version of the website 19:34:12 <Timberwolf> ISTR it was really quick to get from vanilla TTD to near feature parity with TTDP. 19:34:30 <Timberwolf> Quick as in a lot of work happened fast :) 19:34:39 <frosch123> Timberwolf: feature-parity was 2008 19:34:42 <andythenorth> not as fast as you draw trains Timberwolf :P 19:34:58 <andythenorth> unrelated: are forums safe to visit currently? I am sort of avoiding internets mostly 19:35:26 <Eddi|zuHause> https://web.archive.org/web/20070108053114/http://openttd.org/ <--- this must be around the time that i found the game 19:35:44 <frosch123> Timberwolf: considering that ttdp only really started in 2002, ottd started in 2004, and ttdp died in 2007. 2008 is not that fast 19:35:54 <andythenorth> "so with any luck we will have an OS/2 binary for 0.5.0 final" 19:36:22 <Timberwolf> Really, that late? For some reason I recall it being a lot quicker, maybe it was only the features I cared about :p 19:36:42 <andythenorth> there are those who say feature parity has never been achieved 19:36:51 <andythenorth> but they mostly say it in places I don't go in 19:37:09 <andythenorth> in languages ich spreche nichst so gut 19:37:27 <andythenorth> nicht * 19:37:33 <Timberwolf> The current realistic acceleration model took a while, I remember hacking in my own years ago. 19:38:00 * andythenorth wonders when TW will overtake OpenTTD in features 19:38:02 <Timberwolf> Mine was evil in that trains could fully stall on hills. 19:38:22 <andythenorth> did turning them round solve it? 19:38:34 <andythenorth> maybe TW needs a content layer, for modding 19:38:35 <Timberwolf> It solved that particular problem. 19:38:59 <Timberwolf> GL if you'd put a one way signal halfway up the hill. 19:39:19 <andythenorth> pre-PBS I used to get trains so stuck that crashing them was the only option 19:39:31 <frosch123> andythenorth: how about a "feature request" link, that links to the gh fork action? 19:39:44 <andythenorth> or just opens web inspector? :P 19:39:55 <andythenorth> I've not actually tried editing JS live in the dom 19:40:01 <andythenorth> not sure what it does 19:41:26 <Timberwolf> My main network problems pre-PBS came from living through The Age Of Roundabouts. 19:41:35 <_dp_> I recently had an idea to do fog of war with landscaping 19:41:43 <frosch123> hmm, i just noticed, while it says "transport tycoon", it missed the "deluxe" 19:41:47 <frosch123> so what does the D stand for? 19:41:49 <_dp_> when fog lifts it raises the land and funds industries and towns 19:42:11 <andythenorth> if we're making changes, we should make big silly changes :) 19:42:22 <andythenorth> that don't require nml patches or newgrf wiki docs :P 19:43:21 <Timberwolf> vanilla pathfinder was interesting to work around, too. ISTR it has situations where a train will always turn in the compass direction to their destionation, even if it's not a viable path. 19:44:24 <Timberwolf> I always ended up with at least one "pathfinder correction loop" somewhere in a network. 19:45:08 <frosch123> Timberwolf: the first "improved" train pathfinder (named ntp: new train pathfinder), solved exactly that issue by picking a random direction when lost 19:46:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i always built my crossings in a way that compass direction was the right one 19:46:41 <Timberwolf> Oh yes! I remember NTP. Usually swapping to it mid-game when whatever the first full pathfinder got beyond what my PC could cope with. 19:47:07 <Timberwolf> Eddi|zuHause: well, that would be the "good at the game" option :) 19:47:18 <andythenorth> ok brains trust: help me our with FIRS industry closure, it nearly tipped me into a rage quit 2 weeks ago :D 19:47:42 <andythenorth> FIRS 3 has closure for secondary industries if unserviced for some years (I never use it) 19:47:54 <Eddi|zuHause> are we quoting scrubs now? 19:47:58 <Timberwolf> I think it wasn't until 1998 or 1999 that I played a successful game which wasn't either extending Megarail, 1960 or just building bus and lorry services on West Country 90210. 19:48:05 <andythenorth> I think scrubs quoted something else :) 19:48:07 <andythenorth> FIRS 4 closure is broken due to new production mechanics etc 19:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> quite possibly :) 19:48:34 <andythenorth> I wonder if (a) it's acceptable to say closure = use magic bulldozer 19:48:46 * _dp_ hates closing with passion 19:48:47 <andythenorth> or (b) not including closure removes some richness from the game 19:48:51 <andythenorth> or (c) something else 19:48:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but even if i had watched that other stuff, it would have been in german so the reference might have been lost 19:49:21 <andythenorth> apparently https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brains_Trust 19:49:23 <andythenorth> and more 19:49:35 <nielsm> industries opening and closing during the game, and having unpredictable production changes, is one of the things I like in Transport Tycoon over Transport Fever 19:49:56 <andythenorth> FIRS is very linear 19:50:12 <andythenorth> production only changes when you want it too - I have ideas to vary that 19:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: somehow i doubt that scrubs would have referenced a UK thing 19:50:43 <andythenorth> more likely https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_trust 19:51:09 <frosch123> https://web.archive.org/web/20051029030237/http://www.openttd.org/ <- funny how truelight moved everything from all-around-the-world to a single server, and now truebrain is moving it back to the cloud 19:51:23 <andythenorth> what's old is new again 19:51:29 <andythenorth> the world turns on it's axis 19:51:31 <andythenorth> its 19:51:52 <andythenorth> one man struggles 19:51:56 <andythenorth> while another relaxes 19:52:54 <frosch123> anyway, extrapolation time. first website 2004-04 to 2005-07, 2nd 2005-08 to 2008, 3rd 2008 to 2019, 4th 2019 to ?? 19:53:01 <andythenorth> where even is TrueBrain? Holidays? 19:53:03 <frosch123> when do we get the next website? 19:53:23 <frosch123> don't wake the dragon 19:53:24 <andythenorth> srs answer: not this year, but I would like to fix bananas skin 19:54:25 <andythenorth> I quite like the website, except the page structure is no longer good 19:54:39 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should peel the banana first? 19:55:11 <frosch123> https://web.archive.org/web/20051016085244/http://www.openttd.org/about.php <- i found a gem 19:57:13 <andythenorth> ha ha 19:57:20 <Eddi|zuHause> This TrueLight person must be a real proper idiot :p 19:57:20 <andythenorth> hmm, how much town storage is there? 19:57:32 * andythenorth wonders about more intelligent closing 19:57:43 <andythenorth> how about global storage for newgrf? :P 19:58:23 <andythenorth> hmm, no, please no more newgrf spec changes 19:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: my thoughts on closing: 1) have a parameter for "no closing", 2) have areas that the player never touched "protected" so they aren't empty when the player finally manages to get there 20:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> as a rough estimate for "never touched" you can maybe query the rating of nearby towns? 20:00:57 <andythenorth> I was wondering about minimum number of industries per quadrant of the map or something 20:01:00 <andythenorth> or per town 20:01:24 <andythenorth> inevitably, this is all GS stuff :P 20:01:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like it would be failing for different density settings 20:01:51 <andythenorth> I might break those in FIRS soon anyway 20:02:04 <andythenorth> they're not very good 20:02:24 <andythenorth> can I just let OpenTTD close the industries? 20:02:35 <andythenorth> for secondary, I don't understand the basis for default closure 20:02:52 <andythenorth> primary uses prod_multiplier I think 20:05:44 <andythenorth> if ( (byte)(_cur_year - i->last_prod_year) >= 5 && Chance16(1, smooth_economy ? 180 : 2)) { closeit = true; } 20:06:01 <andythenorth> so it's just no prod for 5 years and random chances 20:06:29 <andythenorth> but I have to reimplement that myself I think 20:06:40 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, and this 5 year grace period is ... weird 20:06:57 <andythenorth> I could just reimplement it and move on 20:07:01 <andythenorth> that's what I did last time :) 20:07:14 <andythenorth> frosch123 said improving closure in newgrf was impossible and I should stop wasting my life :) 20:08:05 <frosch123> tw is better 20:08:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no. newgrf can probably improve closing, but it cannot work with global economy data 20:10:16 <andythenorth> I didn't try giving each industry some unique seed 20:10:25 <_dp_> remove all closing and let GS solve it :p 20:10:25 <andythenorth> the biggest problem is waves of closure 20:10:37 <andythenorth> _dp_ we should just make a GS bot 20:10:54 <andythenorth> GS is the new XML 20:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the waves of closure come from the 5 year period 20:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> it'll catch all industries you haven't touched in the first 5 years of gameplay. then the rest of the map will be empty 20:11:36 <andythenorth> yup 20:12:06 <andythenorth> the game solves that because it only visits each industry occasionally, unless smooth economy is on 20:12:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why my suggestion would be to start the 5 years only if the nearby town has a rating for at least one compan 20:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> y 20:12:28 <andythenorth> yes, that could be a mitigation 20:12:45 <andythenorth> other mitigations could be giving each industry a periodicity 20:13:01 <andythenorth> this has to run on the monthly cb, the occasional cb can't be trusted due to economy setting 20:13:39 <andythenorth> but if the check was mostly 'return nothing' and only actually attempted closure 1 in n times 20:14:07 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 20:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem there is that N needs to depend on map settings 20:16:31 <andythenorth> yes 20:16:40 <andythenorth> fundamentally this is an induction vs deduction problem 20:16:53 <andythenorth> I just wonder if I can plaster over it enough 20:17:26 <andythenorth> the downside is I'll never know because I never use the setting :) 20:18:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you'll never find the right N without massive playtesting between different settings and playstyles 20:18:38 <andythenorth> ...which I'm not going to do 20:18:46 <andythenorth> I might do something different 20:19:37 <andythenorth> this is another class of the problem of distributing industries 20:19:56 <andythenorth> I use newgame a lot because mapgen gives non-viable maps (not enough coal mines or something) 20:20:32 <andythenorth> distributing closure values for arbitrary density and map size is similar issue, but not discovered until you have played for 5 years 20:21:01 <andythenorth> BUT 20:21:11 <andythenorth> there might be crude solutions 20:21:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd still try the town rating idea 20:21:16 <andythenorth> I might yes 20:21:25 <andythenorth> I forsee a side effect though :) 20:21:36 <andythenorth> just as you start doing well in a town, the industries start closing :) 20:21:43 <_dp_> since I started working on newgrf server I'm really curious whether I'll end up actually using any grfs or it will just be a single megaforkgrf of my own ... 20:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to store the date when the first town rating appeared, and then count the 5 years from there 20:22:39 <andythenorth> I have related idea about making industries volatile or stable 20:22:52 <andythenorth> which I might use also for primary production 20:23:23 <andythenorth> when an industry is built, I can count the type, and distribute volatile / stable on odd/even 20:23:43 <andythenorth> so 50% will be of each type, at least until closures and openings start 20:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> just make sure the first one is always stable. for smaller maps that only have 1 of each type :p 20:25:08 <andythenorth> good point 20:25:36 <andythenorth> much as I hate newgrf spec change these days, 256 grf-local storage registers for an industry newgrf might be useful :P 20:25:50 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 20:26:21 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 20:26:53 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 20:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds... problematic 20:29:17 <andythenorth> TMWFTLB 20:29:24 <andythenorth> it only solves closure, not needed for much else 20:29:56 <andythenorth> not even sure it can solve closure, due to way cb works :P 20:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean, it would introduce state into previously steteless operations, and i don't think you can restrict it to industries only 20:43:01 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 20:50:02 *** virtualrandomnumber has joined #openttd 20:52:11 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:14:22 *** virtualrandomnumber has quit IRC 21:25:08 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 21:26:50 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 21:27:11 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 21:28:38 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 21:34:49 <b_jonas> I think I'll dismantle my food trains and rebuild entirely. With the higher amount of money that I have now, and faster trains for the quickly spoiling cargo, and new industries that keep opening, I can probably make it work after a redesign, but the current network is terrible. 21:45:20 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:51:01 *** JacobD88 has joined #openttd 21:51:33 <b_jonas> oh I see! FIRS industries differ in how much cargo they want to start gung-ho production levels: 21:52:35 <b_jonas> iron ore mine only wants 80 crates of engineering supplies in 3 months, but bulk terminal wants 640 tons of clay in three month 21:52:53 *** nielsm has quit IRC 21:54:00 <b_jonas> luckily the high production is not too important for the bulk terminal 22:22:11 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 22:24:22 *** tokai has joined #openttd 22:24:22 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai 22:31:06 *** tokai|noir has quit IRC 22:36:51 <b_jonas> having the train go on the left track is confusing when I make the signals, but sometimes I have to do it for space reasons, like in this tight complicated station 22:43:30 <b_jonas> hmm, I'm making this big steel mill station uglier, but it will work better 22:47:16 <b_jonas> oh great, I even found a bug in my previous setup 22:55:56 <b_jonas> ok, now I'm definitely going for mad science value, as opposed to efficiency only 22:59:56 <Timberwolf> CB36 not being called on station visits for trains is annoying :( 23:08:45 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 23:24:45 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 23:31:20 *** JacobD88 has quit IRC 23:38:35 *** GT has joined #openttd 23:38:36 <b_jonas> hmm, are my trains too weak? should I put a double engine? 23:39:12 <b_jonas> or maybe they're just slowing down because there's a temporary jam because I rebuild much of the station 23:46:26 *** cHawk has quit IRC 23:48:17 *** cHawk has joined #openttd