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02:33:39 *** glx has quit IRC 03:28:25 *** D-HUND has joined #openttd 03:31:50 *** debdog has quit IRC 03:32:25 *** D-HUND is now known as debdog 03:44:03 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:46:21 *** Kitrana has joined #openttd 03:50:56 *** Kitrana2 has joined #openttd 03:51:03 *** Kitrana1 has quit IRC 03:55:55 *** Kitrana has quit IRC 04:48:09 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 04:57:47 *** Eddi|zuHause has quit IRC 07:06:03 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 07:18:36 <peter1138> Judging by the MET office, today would not be a good day to cycle. 07:46:07 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:59:43 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 08:00:56 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 08:00:56 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 08:07:41 *** tokai has quit IRC 08:12:04 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #9726: Fix: Prevents crash when no industries are present https://git.io/JMjTx 08:34:56 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd 08:35:25 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause 08:46:47 *** NGC3982 has quit IRC 09:55:56 * dP looks out of the window 09:56:04 <dP> certainly not a good day for cycling 09:56:12 <dP> not bad for skiing though ;) 10:03:25 *** felix has quit IRC 10:15:13 *** felix has joined #openttd 10:46:47 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd 11:10:56 *** Speedy` has quit IRC 11:11:07 *** Speedyn has joined #openttd 12:20:53 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 12:21:08 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 12:25:57 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 12:26:58 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 12:53:55 *** J0anJosep has joined #openttd 13:38:46 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Feature: Extended depots https://git.io/JL5Hh 13:38:51 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #9577: Feature: Multi-tile depots https://git.io/JzSuK 13:40:06 <peter1138> Multi-tile docks! 13:46:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought we had those already? 13:49:41 <J0anJosep> :P 13:53:04 <peter1138> Oh 13:53:12 <peter1138> Newgrf docks! 13:53:17 <peter1138> (I have a patch for that) 13:55:02 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #8480: Feature: Extended depots https://git.io/JDeYt 13:56:13 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep commented on pull request #8480: Feature: Extended depots https://git.io/JDeYr 14:10:53 <Wolf01> andythenorth: https://www.sustainable-bus.com/news/leitner-ropeway-autonomous-minibus-hti/ 14:12:25 *** glx has joined #openttd 14:12:26 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 14:32:41 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] J0anJosep updated pull request #8480: Feature: Extended depots https://git.io/JL5Hh 14:46:58 *** J0anJosep has quit IRC 14:57:25 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 14:58:02 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 14:59:37 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 15:12:30 *** supermop_HNL has joined #openttd 15:12:42 <supermop_HNL> good morning 16:30:05 *** Andres_ has joined #openttd 16:30:10 <Andres_> Afternoon lads. 16:30:58 <Andres_> I have a quick question, case anyone could know; is there any way to make an industry pull resources from a station, or do they have to be 'looped' back in? 16:40:53 <nielsm> the latter 16:41:28 <nielsm> cargo is only delivered to accepting buildings/industries when a vehicle unloads, not when it's sitting on the station 17:00:47 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 17:17:34 *** Flygon has quit IRC 17:31:24 <Andres_> So two industries in the same chane who share a station will not auto-transfer, right? 17:31:31 <Andres_> chain* 17:31:39 <LordAro> correct 17:42:42 *** jottyfan has joined #openttd 17:58:48 <nielsm> that is a mechanic in the Train Fever and Transport Fever games though 17:59:42 <nielsm> I'm not sure if it changed in the later games, but at least originally, cargo would "walk" along roads from industry to station and station to industry, but could also "walk" industry to industry if they were close 18:00:39 <Andres_> I've just added some little ships to loop the stuff around 18:00:50 <Andres_> I am unsure of where it is going altogether now but I think it works 18:01:22 <nielsm> you can't deliver cargo to the station it originated from, by the way, has to be between two separate stations 18:02:07 <nielsm> and since payment is made for the distance between the originating and destination _stations_, it makes more sense financially to move cargo between stations further apart 18:10:17 *** gelignite has quit IRC 18:13:21 <andythenorth> le oof 18:16:27 <dP> you can force unload to the same station 18:16:35 <dP> not that it makes much sense to do so 18:17:18 <nielsm> oh does it deliver then, at zero income? 18:22:32 <dP> hm, no, looks like it transfers 18:22:43 <dP> I thought you ca deliver 18:22:53 <dP> or maybe something changed 18:35:09 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 18:37:09 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] Kiptoke updated pull request #9726: Fix: Prevents crash when no industries are present https://git.io/JMKrq 18:40:36 <frosch123> must be a sibling of samu 18:41:29 <TrueBrain> && false, nice 18:42:05 <nielsm> after writing that comment I noticed there is also an instance of that variable use in the other chunk, but skipped writing about it since it should be understood that the comment applies to all the code... 18:42:38 <frosch123> check out the comment at line 325 :) 18:42:58 <TrueBrain> haha :D 18:43:02 <TrueBrain> famous last words :P 18:43:21 <TrueBrain> for some reason that PR feels like ... patching up the problem, instead of fixing it :) 18:43:23 <LordAro> also seems to have made the files executable 18:43:26 <TrueBrain> that blob around 502 makes very little sense 18:44:21 <nielsm> the proper thing to do would be disallowing the Fund industry window from opening at all if there are none available, wouldn't it 18:44:33 <TrueBrain> or at least disable the buttons once you open it? 18:44:53 <frosch123> or make it handle selected_index = -1 correctly everywhere 18:45:08 <frosch123> but however you put it, you can fix it faster yourself, than teaching it to someone 18:45:08 <nielsm> although that doesn't handle the case when industries stop being available (due to year restrictions) 18:45:58 <glx> and the first version of the PR was just changing the assert 18:49:20 *** sla_ro|master2 has joined #openttd 18:51:06 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 18:52:22 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] frosch123 opened pull request #111: Change: migrate OpenTTD user speedball to GitHub user jrsola https://git.io/JDvY3 18:52:44 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain approved pull request #111: Change: migrate OpenTTD user speedball to GitHub user jrsola https://git.io/JDvYG 18:53:23 <frosch123> it was a good idea to make the script put the usernames into the commit message 18:53:39 <DorpsGek> [OpenTTD/BaNaNaS] TrueBrain merged pull request #111: Change: migrate OpenTTD user speedball to GitHub user jrsola https://git.io/JDvY3 18:53:49 <frosch123> the first time i failed at c&p and entered "speedball" twice, which would have been the wrong gh account :) 18:54:05 <TrueBrain> nice :D 18:54:13 <TrueBrain> I am also still really happy we moved the DB to GitHub 18:54:20 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 18:55:12 <frosch123> yeah, and migration is still easier than implementing some ldap backend, esp since ldap no longer exists :) 18:55:23 <TrueBrain> :D 18:55:40 <frosch123> and i feel like half of them would have forgotten their pw anyway 18:55:54 <TrueBrain> so happy we no longer have to deal with account management 18:55:59 <TrueBrain> that was so .... "less fun" 18:56:19 <frosch123> and the GDPR that comes with it :) 19:04:44 *** Andres_ has quit IRC 20:08:48 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 20:08:58 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 20:15:47 *** Kitrana has joined #openttd 20:18:27 *** Kitrana1 has joined #openttd 20:18:32 *** Kitrana2 has quit IRC 20:20:10 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 20:21:05 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 20:22:53 *** supermop_HNL has quit IRC 20:23:50 *** Kitrana has quit IRC 20:42:46 <andythenorth> hmm did we ever discuss BODMAS? (order of operations) 20:46:29 <milek7> what? 20:46:43 <frosch123> what is there to discuss? do you need to explain it to child #2? 20:47:23 <andythenorth> I seem to have grown up in a parallel universe 20:47:45 <andythenorth> throughout primary school, secondary school and university 20:47:53 *** HerzogDeXtEr has quit IRC 20:48:05 <andythenorth> all my teachers conspired to NEVER teach BODMAS, and to emphasise, 'always put in the brackets or the sum might fail' 20:48:16 <andythenorth> it seems I had the only 5 teachers in the world who believe that 20:48:27 <andythenorth> everybody else learns BODMAS like the weird cult that it is 20:48:29 <andythenorth> so 20:48:35 <andythenorth> 1 -2 + 4 = ? 20:49:16 <glx> order doesn't matter in this case :) 20:49:44 <frosch123> is that "1 - 2 + 4" or "1*(-2) + 4"? 20:50:19 <andythenorth> no it's 1 -2 + 4 20:50:21 <andythenorth> using BODMAS 20:50:26 <andythenorth> the 'rule' 20:51:15 <frosch123> now i understand why infix notation is considered inferior to prefix/postfix notation :) 20:51:41 * andythenorth googles 20:53:03 <andythenorth> I always avoided learning what RPN was 20:53:17 <glx> RPN is easy :) 20:53:20 <LordAro> you need something like "8 / 2(2 + 2)" to show the failings of BODMAS 20:53:31 <andythenorth> RPN looks brilliant 20:53:41 <andythenorth> LordAro 1 -2 + 4 won't do it? 20:53:45 <LordAro> not really 20:53:54 <andythenorth> I found it in an example from a UK maths teacher about why they won't teach BODMAS 20:54:00 <glx> the issue here is - 20:54:07 <glx> is it unary or binary ? 20:54:16 <andythenorth> well what's the answer, using actual maths? 20:54:24 <andythenorth> not some social convention used for dunces 20:54:41 <glx> if unary, the result is 2 20:54:52 <andythenorth> and if binary? 20:54:57 <glx> if binary it's 3 20:55:01 <frosch123> using actual math: always write a dot, if two numbers are involved, only ommit dots for variables 20:55:05 <andythenorth> but in neither case is it -5? 20:55:15 <frosch123> "2a" is okay "ab" is okay, "2 3" is not 20:55:20 <LordAro> it's a strange way of formatting it, but if there's no parens it's pretty weird to assume that there's a multiplication in there 20:55:30 <andythenorth> 1 - 6 20:55:49 <glx> can't be -6 20:55:58 <andythenorth> Addition before Subtraction 20:56:04 <andythenorth> so 1 - (2 + 4) 20:56:13 <andythenorth> it's a laughably wrong social convention 20:56:15 <LordAro> makes no difference which order you do add/sub in 20:56:26 <andythenorth> in maths it makes no difference 20:56:33 <andythenorth> in a weird cult, it makes a difference 20:56:53 <frosch123> if what place does BODMAS mean additon before subtraction? 20:57:27 <LordAro> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations#Mnemonics 20:57:36 <frosch123> https://www.mathsisfun.com/operation-order-bodmas.html <- i did not know the abbreviation, and ducked that 20:57:40 <LordAro> though their example is weird too 20:57:45 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 20:58:21 <frosch123> andythenorth: so, if your argument is that BODMAS is a terrible ambiguous abbreviation, i may agree :) 20:58:40 <glx> but div and mul have the same priority 20:58:52 <frosch123> in german it is "punkt vor strich": "dot before dash" 20:58:58 <glx> idem for add and sub (but lower taht div/mul) 20:59:18 <frosch123> refering to both · and : containing dots, and + and - containing dashes 20:59:55 <andythenorth> child #1 is taught that AS are equivalent, and performed left to right 21:00:03 <frosch123> that is correct :) 21:00:03 <andythenorth> but the school specifically teaches that 21:00:14 <andythenorth> it all seems so weird 21:00:36 <TrueBrain> for a moment I thought you read too much reddit 21:00:43 <andythenorth> this must be proof that I have fallen through a wormhole into a parallel universe 21:01:11 <frosch123> even the C author got the priorities of */ and +- correct :) 21:01:28 <frosch123> and that says a lot, considering they got the unary * wrong 21:01:38 <andythenorth> when I did civil engineering maths, the lecturer was basically like 'lol you can rely on order of operations, if you want to be the one explaining why the building fell down' 21:01:50 <andythenorth> 'real engineers put the parentheses in' 21:02:13 <TrueBrain> explicit before implicit, what a weird concept you present 21:02:21 <glx> of course parentheses simplify the reading 21:02:38 <andythenorth> RPN looks really neat, I might go in a rabbit hole 21:02:54 <frosch123> i have a hp calculator that uses rpn 21:03:10 <frosch123> it was pretty convenient when i used calculators 21:03:16 <glx> + + 1 1 1 21:03:27 <andythenorth> does it make operations over long sequences of numbers really trivial? 21:03:30 <frosch123> glx: that is forward :) 21:03:37 <andythenorth> it looks like 'operator', 'stack' 21:03:41 <LordAro> andythenorth: yup 21:04:02 <glx> oh yeah that's lisp without the parentheses 21:04:03 <TrueBrain> glx: that would result in some stack corruption I think :P 21:04:19 <milek7> frosch123: does : is actually used? 21:04:35 <glx> 1 1 + 1 + seems better indeed 21:05:05 <frosch123> rpn is convenient if you have to sum many numbers, because you can just write all the numbers, and then you can recheck the numbers while your finger is on + 21:05:36 <LordAro> `1 2 / 3 4 + *` === `(3 + 4) * (2 / 1)` 21:05:41 <andythenorth> wonder if I'm capable of writing a python RPN calculator :P 21:05:43 <frosch123> milek7: ":" was used in elementary school, "/" is only used once you learn fractions 21:06:25 <LordAro> never heard of : being used before 21:06:29 <andythenorth> ok this person is from same parallel universe as me :D https://sites.temple.edu/math5061/files/2016/08/Review-Example.pdf 21:06:41 <LordAro> some sort of hybrid of ÷ ? 21:06:42 <andythenorth> "Infix Notation ● Requires parentheses to remove ambiguity" 21:07:08 <TrueBrain> I really was thinking andythenorth read https://www.reddit.com/r/memes/comments/r3hnsd/these_wouldnt_be_viral_if_people_remembered_order/ 21:07:12 <frosch123> LordAro: look on your keyboard, it has a ÷ key, which can be simplified to : 21:07:26 <glx> I only used ÷ I think 21:07:30 <LordAro> ^ 21:07:40 <LordAro> my keyboard doesn't have a ÷ key :p 21:07:43 <andythenorth> TrueBrain child #1 showed me the YouTube video equivalent of that 21:07:51 <frosch123> i think : was used, because ÷ is too close to - 21:07:54 <frosch123> or + 21:08:27 <glx> but eh we also have é è and ê :) 21:08:30 <TrueBrain> I like how several people in that reddit thread go: IT IS OBVIOUSLY THIS 21:08:40 <TrueBrain> where there is nothing obvious about that sum, really :P 21:08:42 <glx> oh and ë of course 21:08:44 <andythenorth> 6 / 2(1+2) is nonsense 21:08:49 <andythenorth> let 1+2 = n 21:08:55 <TrueBrain> either use a dot or a x .. fuck off with nothingness 21:08:56 <andythenorth> 6 / 2n 21:09:09 <andythenorth> n = 3 21:09:12 <andythenorth> answer is 1 21:09:16 <andythenorth> not this '9' bollocks 21:09:19 <andythenorth> it's tragic 21:09:32 <andythenorth> never write the expression that way 21:09:39 <andythenorth> Apple tells me it's actually 9 but eh 21:09:52 <glx> clearly 1 21:10:02 <andythenorth> order of operations disagrees 21:10:17 <TrueBrain> depends on your background really :D 21:10:24 <andythenorth> but it unpicks everything I was taught about algebra and evaluating algebraic expressions 21:10:35 <andythenorth> oh well :) 21:10:36 <andythenorth> nvm 21:10:38 <glx> yeah left to right, but it's really not the best way to write it 21:10:57 <frosch123> glx: there was one book in my parents' shelve, where the authors' name had a "ë". it was the most exciting thing to young me :) 21:11:02 <andythenorth> 6 / 2n is apparently (6 / 2) * n 21:11:05 <andythenorth> which is weird as all fuck 21:11:11 <TrueBrain> also wrong :P 21:11:19 <andythenorth> Apple calculator disagrees 21:13:54 <frosch123> andythenorth: you are mixing two things. "6 / 2 * n" is indeed "(6 / 2) * n". but omitting the * is only valid if you use horizonal fractions, not the / short hand 21:14:13 <frosch123> also, i can't write the horizontal fraction with unicode 21:14:16 <andythenorth> :) 21:14:17 <frosch123> that triggers a oftc bot 21:14:21 <frosch123> already tried that before :) 21:14:46 <LordAro> @calc 6 / 2(1+2) 21:14:46 <DorpsGek> LordAro: Error: 'float' object is not callable 21:14:56 <andythenorth> yeah that 21:14:56 <frosch123> so "6 / 2n" is "syntax error" :) 21:14:58 <LordAro> definitive. 21:15:11 <frosch123> dorpsgek knew it all the time :) 21:15:23 <LordAro> @calc 6 / 2*(1+2) 21:15:23 <DorpsGek> LordAro: 9 21:15:32 <LordAro> the issue is of course that adding the '*' changes its meaning 21:15:58 <frosch123> and that you are messing with spaces, assuming they matter :p 21:16:04 <andythenorth> so the reddit post lacks column C, people going 'lolwut?' 21:16:04 <LordAro> so yeah, you run into arguments with people who never got to the 2n phase of learning maths 21:16:07 <glx> for me 2n is always (2 * n) so 6/ (2 * n) 21:16:27 <andythenorth> same thing went round facebook some while ago 21:16:30 <frosch123> so 2n != 2*n :) 21:16:38 <LordAro> "oh, parens, that just means multiply" 21:16:40 <frosch123> it's a different operator with different priority 21:16:53 <LordAro> i don't think anyone is disagreeing with anyone else here 21:17:15 <andythenorth> ok so I'm not just a visitor from a parallel universe? 21:17:47 *** gelignite has quit IRC 21:18:04 <glx> and there's a reason why it's recommended to use parentheses in some cases :) 21:19:08 <michi_cc> Parentheses help if you're in a medium that doesn't support the full normal maths notation. 21:19:11 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 21:19:13 <milek7> seems like problem existing only in calculators with single line input 21:19:15 <frosch123> [21:42] <andythenorth> hmm did we ever discuss BODMAS? (order of operations) <- 36 minutes later now, happy? 21:19:17 <glx> on paper it's easy to see what 6 / 2 * n will be as usually the 2 is under the 6 21:19:26 <milek7> I have never seen division written in single line in real life 21:19:36 <milek7> and in C-like syntax you can't multiply without * anyway 21:19:38 <andythenorth> very happy :) 21:19:41 <andythenorth> men's shed 21:20:01 <andythenorth> reddit said "It’s not 1, not anywhere in the world. You either remember it wrong or never learned it correctly. It’s always been 9. Old, ways, new ways, it’s always worked out to 9 if it was solved correctly. It’s not both. Sorry if that offended anyone, just fact." 21:20:17 <andythenorth> which is, I guess, the problem of confusing 'social convention' with 'fact' 21:20:17 <frosch123> milek7: how did you write it in elementary school with integer-division only? 21:20:18 <TrueBrain> factually wrong \o/ :D 21:20:52 <andythenorth> there was a whole better answer about 'mathematicians just don't write this shit like this' 21:21:00 <andythenorth> someone else said 'python says lol' 21:23:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: python2 would say "7 / 2 * 3 == 9" :p 21:23:33 <andythenorth> yeah 'lol' seems to not be in standard library 21:23:36 <andythenorth> maybe it should be 21:24:18 <andythenorth> RPN has slightly blown my mind, I knew alternative notations existed, but never what they were 21:24:45 <andythenorth> it's so incredibly elegant 21:24:49 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Try writing your NewGRFs in Forth now :) 21:24:58 <LordAro> https://people.math.harvard.edu/~knill/pedagogy/ambiguity/index.html 21:25:33 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 21:27:32 <milek7> frosch123: ok, good point. but this was before x(...) style was introduced, so dot was always used 21:27:55 <andythenorth> nml -> forth anyone? :P 21:28:30 <andythenorth> stack programming looks quite fun 21:45:19 *** jottyfan has quit IRC 21:46:25 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 21:49:41 *** glx_ has joined #openttd 21:49:41 *** glx is now known as Guest7892 21:49:41 *** glx_ is now known as glx 21:52:15 <andythenorth> hmm 21:53:05 <andythenorth> maths stack exchange says it's not BODMAS, it's BO(D,M)(A,S) 21:53:16 <andythenorth> which I guess is a nice finale point 21:56:09 <andythenorth> or BOMA, because division is multiplication by 1 / x , and subtraction is just addition of negative numbers 21:56:13 <andythenorth> that makes a lot more sense 21:56:26 *** Guest7892 has quit IRC 22:19:00 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 22:20:16 *** _aD has joined #openttd 22:28:59 * dP just learned that nibble is an actual technical term 22:29:05 <dP> wonders of newgrf specs 22:32:03 <Rubidium> you're just a few weeks too late for the 50 year anniversary of Intel's introduction of their nibble CPU 22:32:16 *** nielsm has quit IRC 23:21:32 *** sla_ro|master2 has quit IRC 23:36:41 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC