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00:00:20 <Nat_aS> http://uzurpator.com.pl/self_www/tropic_refurb/index.html 00:00:44 <Nat_aS> so death seems to be the current maintainer 00:00:51 <Nat_aS> or at least most current 00:03:19 <Nat_aS> he dosn't ever hang out here does he? 00:06:13 <Supercheese> I could try to edit it 00:06:31 <Supercheese> what's the license? 00:07:20 <Nat_aS> can't find one on the site 00:07:52 <Supercheese> GPL 00:07:54 <Supercheese> according to Banananananaanas 00:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, if it's GPL, the sourcecode must be available 00:09:27 <Supercheese> indeed... 00:09:31 <Supercheese> I can't find them :\ 00:10:08 <Nat_aS> looking at death's form posts, his last was in 2012, but before that was just a few off topic form posts from 09 00:10:20 <Nat_aS> so it's maintained by people who are rarely avalable 00:11:32 <Supercheese> no sources available is a problem for GPL though 00:12:06 <Nat_aS> so no source code and no active supporters 00:14:01 <Nat_aS> uzurpator is more active though 00:19:01 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 00:27:50 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:33:05 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6A59A.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 00:37:18 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-077-106.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [] 00:39:34 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6BBA6.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:49:52 *** Mazur [~mazur@546984B2.cm-12-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 01:08:47 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-219-51.tal.is] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 01:11:22 *** Stimrol [~Stimrol@46-239-219-51.tal.is] has joined #openttd 01:13:58 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6A59A.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 01:53:38 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: Bye !] 01:55:22 *** adit [~adit@39.211.64.152] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:20:12 <Supercheese> I can't seem to compile r25551 02:20:18 <Supercheese> it complains about grf_layout.cpp 02:21:46 <Supercheese> sorry, .h not .cpp 02:25:17 <Supercheese> Cannot open include file: 'layout/ParagraphLayout.h': No such file or directory 02:26:32 <Supercheese> something to do with ICU, whatever that is 02:27:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ICU is what draws weird languages 02:27:24 <Eddi|zuHause> like things that go backwards or connect letters 02:28:05 <Supercheese> Guess I need to remove WITH_ICU eh 02:30:16 <Supercheese> Ugh, 100°F here 02:30:28 <Supercheese> and it's 7:30 PM 02:31:12 <Eddi|zuHause> what 02:31:17 <Eddi|zuHause> 's that in real units? 02:31:22 <Supercheese> I dunno 02:31:28 <Supercheese> 38°C maybe 02:31:39 <Supercheese> ±1 02:34:07 <Supercheese> Hmm, perhaps OTTD useful has updated? 02:34:14 <Supercheese> I seem to suddenly be missing libraries 02:48:15 <Eddi|zuHause> quite possibly 02:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (why do i hear a doctor who voice when saying that?) 03:04:43 *** Mazur [~mazur@546984B2.cm-12-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:05:11 *** Mazur [~mazur@546984B2.cm-12-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 03:20:37 *** APTX [APTX@aptx.org] has joined #openttd 03:42:23 <Supercheese> yep, new libraries 03:56:09 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Quit: Page closed] 04:56:01 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p5DC66025.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 04:56:16 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5773.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 05:30:40 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@218.47.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:35:25 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 05:53:03 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 06:07:10 *** dell_ [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 06:13:21 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:13:41 *** BookaT [~Booka@cpe-24-28-157-113.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 06:19:59 *** dell__ [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 06:21:50 *** Kjetil_ [kjetil@161.81-166-7.customer.lyse.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 06:21:53 *** Kjetil [kjetil@161.81-166-7.customer.lyse.net] has joined #openttd 06:25:33 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.9.171.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 06:25:37 *** dell_ [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:25:45 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.9.171.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 06:40:55 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has joined #openttd 06:42:27 *** permagreen [~donovan@204-195-27-175.wavecable.com] has quit [Quit: USER DEAD IMMINENT] 06:49:46 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 07:09:07 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 07:09:45 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@5070A0D5.static.ziggozakelijk.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:12:44 *** dell__ [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:17:21 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 07:18:12 *** Elukka [~Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 07:23:12 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.9.171.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 07:27:39 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has joined #openttd 07:30:44 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:35:00 *** pugi [~pugi@host-091-097-086-209.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 08:07:31 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:38:20 *** APTX_ [APTX@aptx.org] has joined #openttd 08:40:38 *** APTX [APTX@aptx.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:44:21 *** Ristovski [~rafael@31.11.127.74] has joined #openttd 08:50:43 <dihedral> good morning 09:01:39 <NGC3982> Morning 09:01:54 <NGC3982> 38? 09:01:56 <NGC3982> Jeez. 09:06:00 <dihedral> that's what i have in my server room :-P - nah - just kidding 09:06:50 <Xaroth|Work> mornin dih 09:10:06 <NGC3982> dihedral: Speaking of, i really need to clean my OpenTTD server. 09:10:26 <NGC3982> http://www.flickr.com/photos/appemobile/9152379000/ 09:10:29 <NGC3982> http://www.flickr.com/photos/appemobile/9152381634/ 09:11:11 <NGC3982> It accumulates so much dust, you wouldn't believe. And the average temperature rises one or two celcius every fortnight. 09:11:25 <Xaroth|Work> could use a good hoovering 09:11:35 <NGC3982> Indeed. 09:13:14 <dihedral> what would you expect with that fan? :-P 09:15:21 <Xaroth|Work> you'd almost think it'd lift off. 09:34:36 <dihedral> that's what i think when the netapp in the server room boots :-P 09:35:19 <Xaroth|Work> i've had the displeasure of having to stand next to a few blades during a power cycle 09:35:25 <Xaroth|Work> i was glad I had earplugs in 09:35:34 <Xaroth|Work> I was not so glad that those earplugs didn't really help that much 09:35:43 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 09:36:36 <dihedral> be glad they did not suck you in :-P 09:38:47 <Xaroth|Work> I was at the hot end 09:38:53 <Xaroth|Work> so more like blown out of the window 09:44:55 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:58:47 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.137.75.224] has quit [] 10:09:48 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.hdsnet.hu] has joined #openttd 10:15:56 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 10:25:21 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 10:29:59 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:35:12 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 10:51:14 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 10:54:30 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 11:01:20 *** tokai|noir [~tokai@00012860.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 11:01:23 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai|noir] by ChanServ 11:07:09 *** tokai|mdlx [~tokai@port-92-195-77-76.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:13:27 *** adit [~adit@182.12.83.41] has joined #openttd 11:20:16 *** dell_ [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 11:24:37 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:30:07 <MNIM> Hmmmh 11:30:18 <MNIM> I would like to notify people that http://grfsearch.openttd.org is not responding 11:30:22 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 11:31:35 *** dell_ [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:32:10 *** Supercheese [~Password4@98.145.153.126] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 11:32:39 *** Supercheese [~Password4@98.145.153.126] has joined #openttd 11:33:23 * MNIM pokes Supercheese 11:37:29 <Xaroth|Work> MNIM: works here on one system (home), not at the other(work) 11:38:10 <Xaroth|Work> so I'd suspect peering issues 11:38:44 <MNIM> hmmmhm :? 11:39:19 <Xaroth|Work> peering issues 11:40:02 * MNIM peers at openttd 11:40:52 <Xaroth|Work> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Gateway_Protocol 11:45:50 *** good_night_white_peoples [id@pool-109-191-212-41.is74.ru] has joined #openttd 11:46:05 *** good_night_white_peoples [id@pool-109-191-212-41.is74.ru] has left #openttd [] 11:46:33 *** robotboy is now known as roboboy 11:53:47 *** roadt__ [~roadt@60.168.82.240] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:07:37 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 12:09:25 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:09:41 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.hdsnet.hu] has quit [] 12:15:34 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:15:41 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 12:25:20 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.hdsnet.hu] has joined #openttd 12:50:37 *** Tom_Soft [~id@pool-109-191-212-41.is74.ru] has joined #openttd 12:50:41 *** Tom_Soft [~id@pool-109-191-212-41.is74.ru] has quit [] 12:59:37 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:01:38 *** Belugas [~belugas@00011985.user.oftc.net] has quit [Quit: On snow, everyone can follow your traces] 13:07:27 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 13:20:26 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.230] has joined #openttd 13:20:29 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 13:21:29 <Belugas> hello 13:28:51 <__ln__> bon 13:32:43 <__ln__> does anyone have anything against Cologne? (also known as Köln) 13:33:02 <Sacro> So the new russian patchpack has removed the COPYING text file 13:33:08 <Sacro> GPL violation much? 13:33:33 <__ln__> you should write to the free software foundation. 13:33:39 <Sacro> I shall 13:33:44 <Sacro> CC Hans Zimmerman 13:37:49 <Eddi|zuHause> or you could try to teach russians about copyright 13:41:08 <planetmaker> simpler would be to teach people about using 'make bundle' 13:41:32 <planetmaker> but not as ... efficient 13:42:23 <__ln__> is this Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket something new? 13:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> not particularly... 13:43:31 <planetmaker> __ln__, cologne is the city for the queer and gay ;-) 13:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> "Das Quer-durchs-Land-Ticket war zunÀchst wÀhrend einer Pilotphase vom 1. August 2009 bis zum 31. Januar 2010 erhÀltlich. Seit dem 13. Dezember 2010 bietet es die Deutsche Bahn mit verÀnderten Konditionen wieder an." 13:44:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's "new" if you haven't travelled by train in the last 5 years :) 13:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> the similar "schönes-wochenende-ticket" is even older 13:46:25 <Eddi|zuHause> but only valid on weekends (saturday or sunday) 13:46:39 <__ln__> yeah, that one i was aware of already. 13:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> particularly cheap way to travel if you're in a group and have a lot of time 13:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> (because you can't use long-distance-trains which usually provide the fast connections) 13:50:12 <__ln__> i've used lÀnder-tickets in a group for that purpose a few times 13:58:56 *** TomyLobo [~foo@91-65-210-133-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #openttd 14:04:50 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-46-242-13-101.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 14:10:02 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #openttd 14:21:09 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5773.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [] 14:30:55 <MNIM> Hmmmh 14:31:03 <MNIM> time to look for some inspiration for a junction 14:31:47 <MNIM> wtf. 14:31:59 <MNIM> wiki.openttd.org isn't responding to me either 14:34:27 <Xaroth|Work> as I said before 14:34:30 <Xaroth|Work> I suspect peering issues 14:42:37 <peter1139> traceroute 14:44:19 *** DorpsGek [~dorpsgek@000128f9.user.oftc.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:44:33 *** DorpsGek [~dorpsgek@000128f9.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 14:44:37 *** mode/#openttd [+o DorpsGek] by ChanServ 14:49:39 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:02:46 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 15:07:31 *** dell_ [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has joined #openttd 15:07:51 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p57BD5773.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 15:11:44 *** fanioz [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:24:14 *** flaa [~flaa@89.100.79.103] has joined #openttd 15:29:27 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.hdsnet.hu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:54 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@wirenat2.strw.leidenuniv.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:30:44 *** dell_ [~fanioz@180.246.124.21] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 15:31:00 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.hdsnet.hu] has joined #openttd 15:44:02 *** alluke [~oftc-webi@cs181208223.pp.htv.fi] has joined #openttd 15:48:47 *** roboboy [~robotboy@0001164c.user.oftc.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:03:03 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has joined #openttd 16:04:34 *** ntoskrnl [~not@a91-153-231-146.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:07:18 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@218.47.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 16:18:16 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590d5e12.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:21:56 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 16:22:11 <Terkhen> hello 16:23:14 <frosch123> hola terkhen :) 16:28:57 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6A59A.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 16:30:27 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-46-242-13-101.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 16:34:15 *** Progman [~progman@p57A192DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 16:56:40 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 16:57:32 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387AB64.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 16:59:25 <planetmaker> good evening 17:01:15 *** Ristovski [~rafael@31.11.127.74] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:03:00 <Terkhen> hi planetmaker and frosch123 17:08:53 <adit> good evening :) 17:10:27 *** glx [glx@000128ec.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd 17:10:30 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:12:30 *** Ristovski [~rafael@31.11.127.74] has joined #openttd 17:12:33 <frosch123> all the kids are coming home from school 17:15:01 <Rubidium> hi daddy ;) 17:16:10 <frosch123> i can't be kid? :( 17:16:30 <Rubidium> isn't by definition everyone a child? 17:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your definitions of "everyone" and "child", probably 17:17:53 * Rubidium thinks of DAGs 17:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> no idea what that is 17:18:21 <frosch123> watch "git for 4 years and up" 17:18:47 <frosch123> +olds 17:35:23 *** namad8 [~aaaaa@pool-96-236-139-72.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:38:18 *** namad7 [~aaaaa@pool-96-236-139-72.pitbpa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #openttd 17:45:38 <DorpsGek> Commit by translators :: r25552 /trunk/src/lang (5 files) (2013-07-02 17:45:30 UTC) 17:45:39 <DorpsGek> -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 17:45:40 <DorpsGek> russian - 39 changes by Lone_Wolf 17:45:41 <DorpsGek> slovak - 19 changes by Milsa 17:45:42 <DorpsGek> swedish - 1 changes by Joel_A 17:45:43 <DorpsGek> thai - 3 changes by nirakanz 17:45:44 <DorpsGek> turkish - 4 changes by emremeydan 17:50:01 *** oskari89 [oskari89@62-241-226-106.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:00:29 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 18:00:32 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 18:01:17 <Alberth> o/ 18:15:25 <planetmaker> hallo Alberth 18:38:31 *** Ttech [ttech@00014919.user.oftc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:51:14 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has quit [Quit: reboot + upgrade] 18:53:32 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd 18:55:01 *** adit [~adit@182.12.83.41] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 18:57:32 <DorpsGek> Commit by rubidium :: r25553 /trunk/src (4 files in 2 dirs) (2013-07-02 18:57:26 UTC) 18:57:33 <DorpsGek> -Fix [FS#5530]: provide a warning when no vehicles are available, and tell what to do in that case 18:57:34 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [] 18:57:51 *** Midnightmyth [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd 18:59:06 *** Midnightmyth_ [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has joined #openttd 18:59:13 *** Midnightmyth_ [~quassel@93-167-84-102-static.dk.customer.tdc.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:59:38 *** adit [~adit@182.12.83.41] has joined #openttd 19:09:30 <Milaga> I am not sure I understand the ECS industries. All of my industries have petered out in 10 years. I have trains that don't turn a profit anymore. 19:11:49 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:12:28 <Pinkbeast> Milaga: ECS primary extraction industries do gradually taper away to nothing, yes. 19:12:36 <planetmaker> ecs industries are... harder to master. did you read the wiki on ecs industries? 19:12:48 <planetmaker> and ^^ what pinkbeast says 19:12:49 <Pinkbeast> http://www.tt-wiki.net/wiki/ECS_Vectors_General_Information 19:12:52 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 19:13:13 <Pinkbeast> Also you've got the stockpiles to contend with which are a terrible fit with OTTD's dispatch model 19:14:10 <planetmaker> does it get better with cargodist enabled? 19:14:27 <Nat_aS> Everything is better with cargodist 19:14:51 <fonsinchen> I heard Cargodist and stock piles don't like each other. 19:15:12 <planetmaker> making money is not better with cargodist 19:15:18 <fonsinchen> Because stations randomly start and stop accepting and producing stuff. 19:17:11 <Pinkbeast> But stockpiles and cargod*st work well together in Simutrans if they could just stop the dispatching industry gobbing up goods at such tremendous speed. 19:21:00 <zooks> fonsinchen, yes, cargodist deletes links when stockpiles cause the station to stop accepting so cargo will get lost all the time in waiting 19:21:29 <zooks> I now turn of stockpiles in my games with ECS 19:26:36 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.hdsnet.hu] has quit [] 19:26:45 *** Djohaal [~Djohaal@189.58.9.171.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #openttd 19:32:21 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:36:54 *** TinoDidriksen [~TinoDidri@alpha.visl.sdu.dk] has joined #openttd 19:41:03 *** tycoondemon [~ashnohoe@ip503d7ac1.speed.planet.nl] has joined #openttd 19:44:45 *** adit [~adit@182.12.83.41] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:45:16 *** adit [~adit@182.12.83.41] has joined #openttd 19:47:55 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@ip82-139-82-247.lijbrandt.net] has joined #openttd 20:00:24 *** DDR [~chatzilla@d154-20-134-225.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:03:13 <__ln__> "FÃŒr nur 1,00 EUR mehr werden Ihre Fahrten mit dem Fernverkehr der Deutschen Bahn zu 100% aus erneuerbaren Energien durchgefÃŒhrt." 20:04:38 <frosch123> try to catch a diesel train, and sue them 20:07:09 <__ln__> also makes one wonder, if the introduction of 100% renewable energy on railways is only a matter of 1⬠per passenger, why not include that in everyone's ticket and happily drive with renewables ever after. 20:07:56 <planetmaker> frosch123, "Fernverkehr". I don't think they have diesel engines 20:08:13 <Rubidium> the ICE to Denmark? 20:08:15 <__ln__> they do, to/from copenhagen! 20:08:25 <planetmaker> hm. Good point 20:09:01 <__ln__> but admittedly they may claim it's not a DB train, because it says "DSB" on the train walls. 20:09:54 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:10:19 <MNIM> ICE actually has a diesel version :P 20:10:28 <Rubidium> alternatively... the ICE/IC going to Amsterdam. Are those classified as "Fernverkehr"? 20:10:42 <__ln__> MNIM: it does 20:10:50 <planetmaker> maybe they run there plant diesel 20:12:37 <MNIM> Oh, right 20:12:54 <MNIM> denmark's IC4 is also built by AnsaldoBreda 20:13:11 <frosch123> planetmaker: aren't there some ic routes with br218? 20:13:20 <MNIM> when will people ever realize that the only thing italian tech is good for is target practice? 20:14:30 <Rubidium> MNIM: but doesn't it always miss their target? 20:14:56 <Rubidium> like the break target 20:16:32 <Alberth> practice makes perfect :p 20:21:55 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 20:23:10 <Milaga> Yeah, I read the wiki ... I think the problem is this scenario. All the industries started at 3% or so. Is that bad? 20:24:04 <frosch123> [22:09] <__ln__> but admittedly they may claim it's not a DB train, because it says "DSB" on the train walls <- if 30% of the energy is renewable anyway, why not sell 30% of tickets for 1 ⬠more? 20:24:10 <Milaga> And it doesn't really make sense that renewable resources, like farms, taper off. Seasonal fluxuations are one thing I like, but my whole beer industry has just collapsed! 20:25:08 <Milaga> And yeah, I turned off stockpiles too. Right away I could tell that would be bad, considering how complicated industries are. 20:25:29 <frosch123> [22:07] <__ln__> also makes one wonder, if the introduction of 100% renewable energy on railways is only a matter of 1⬠per passenger, why not include that in everyone's ticket and happily drive with renewables ever after. <- actually i wanted to quote that line :p 20:26:18 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:27:05 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 20:31:30 *** sla_ro|master [slamaster@89.137.75.224] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:34:59 <planetmaker> Milaga, the seasonal change is what really buggers me there, too. Maybe it can be changed via parameters, dunno. Or you might want to give another industry set a try in your next game, e.g. FIRS 20:35:39 <__ln__> is there something interesting in Bonn? 20:35:56 <planetmaker> __ln__, yes, the "Haus der Geschichte" is IMHO a very interesting museum 20:36:14 <planetmaker> one of the best I've seen really 20:36:40 <__ln__> hmm, perhaps i should add Bonn to my schedule. 20:36:43 <planetmaker> besides it's a nice town... 20:36:55 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:37:29 <planetmaker> the Schloss, which is part of the university is also a nice thing to see... with a nice garden 20:37:32 <planetmaker> or park rather 20:37:54 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 20:38:10 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.137.75.224] has joined #openttd 20:39:45 *** Alberth [~hat3@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:40:21 <planetmaker> __ln__, what's your rough idea of your trip? 20:41:07 <planetmaker> and what's the type of things you want to do / see in general? 20:43:12 <__ln__> the post-braunschweigian idea of my trip is to take a train to köln, stay for 2 nights and see köln and its surroundings, then maybe visit wuppertal and return to hannover airport for one night until flight back home. 20:43:52 <planetmaker> and what stuff do you enjoy doing? 20:44:04 <planetmaker> or seeing? what interests you? 20:44:47 <planetmaker> just sights? Or more like history? Or ... arts? Or churches? Or ... whatever :-) 20:45:04 <frosch123> night 20:45:08 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590d5e12.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Quit: quak] 20:45:18 <__ln__> well i like seeing places and things with historical significance. or just otherwise interesting places. 20:45:37 <__ln__> not churches nor arts primarily. :) 20:45:59 <planetmaker> have you visited Leipzig before? 20:46:21 <planetmaker> biggest terminus station. Völkerschlachtdenkmal. And... well :-) 20:46:22 <__ln__> yes, i have. and its stasi museum. 20:46:29 <planetmaker> ok :-) 20:47:21 *** flaa [~flaa@89.100.79.103] has quit [Quit: leaving] 20:47:22 <__ln__> i've also visited the camping area of the city of köln, and seen the cathedral from the distance of several kilometers.. 20:47:28 <planetmaker> a nice original town, with many half-timbered houses, oldest barock theatre in Northern Germany is Celle 20:48:11 <planetmaker> used to be one of the residence towns of the Hanovres, aka Windsor 20:48:29 <planetmaker> (and that's why it hasn't been bombed, or so is rumoured) 20:49:19 <__ln__> probably i should also visit wuppertal on my way back, to re-experience the schwebebahn. 20:50:20 *** zooks [~zooks@vhe-540241.sshn.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:57:57 <planetmaker> __ln__, there's many nice small "towns" also along the Rhine. If you are in Bonn, you can even go on a short trip via boat to some. 20:59:24 <MNIM> Ewww, the rhine. 20:59:37 <MNIM> in the netherlands we call that 'the sewer' 21:00:21 <planetmaker> yes... Germany prepares it well. Or maybe Sandoz? 21:00:23 <__ln__> hmm, boat trip, not a bad idea 21:01:12 <MNIM> Not sure, but it seems anything that doesn't originate in our own country seems to have that quality. 21:02:53 <MNIM> Hell, in Antwerpen they still throw the sewage straight into the Schelde sometimes. 21:04:08 <__ln__> well, Antwerpen is in belgium, so.. 21:04:18 <planetmaker> http://www.b-p-s.de/Tagesfahrplan.php?datum=29.07.2013&Monat=007&Jahr=2013&einsteigen=&aussteigen=&lan=de 21:05:31 <__ln__> would a dutch person care to explain the reason for the Baarle-Nassau mess? 21:06:02 <MNIM> Which mess specifically? 21:06:16 <MNIM> but yeah, __ln__, that was the point :P 21:06:33 <MNIM> in the netherlands that would probably have caused the fall of another government, at the very least 21:06:48 <MNIM> in belgium? "meh." 21:06:53 <__ln__> the mess that there are tinytiny territories of belgium within netherlands 21:07:00 <MNIM> oooh, right 21:07:03 <MNIM> it gets better 21:07:12 <__ln__> and even territories of netherlands within territories of belgium within netherlands 21:07:18 <MNIM> exactly. 21:07:23 <MNIM> I'm not sure, really. 21:07:31 <MNIM> never dug too deeply into that 21:08:02 <MNIM> easiest explanation I can immediately give you is "Eh, belgium" 21:08:16 <MNIM> (Note, I use that explanation a lot) 21:08:33 <__ln__> having visited belgium myself, i understand that explanation 21:10:02 *** Ristovski [~rafael@31.11.127.74] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:11:55 *** perk11 [~perk11@broadband-46-242-13-101.nationalcablenetworks.ru] has joined #openttd 21:12:02 <__ln__> if you just conquered those territories, they wouldn't mind, would they? 21:12:16 <Xaroth|Work> the easiest explanation a dutchie would give would be "het zijn belgen" 21:12:34 <MNIM> Xaroth: so yeah, that is exactly what I did XD 21:12:41 <Xaroth|Work> :) 21:13:34 <Xaroth|Work> and belgium and the netherlands used to be one country 21:13:41 <Xaroth|Work> during the seperation things got a bit messed up 21:13:45 <MNIM> you don't need to tell me that >.> 21:13:53 <MNIM> It created belgium 21:14:04 <MNIM> which is the very definition of 'messed up' ;P 21:14:40 <MNIM> Well, what wikipedia tells me on a quick view is that as a result of lots of land-swapping between the dukes of Brabant and Breda as a result of powerplays between the Duke of Brabant and the duke of Holland in the middle ages 21:15:27 <__ln__> there's a belgian territory in the middle of a big field. can i declare that one independent and appoint myself as the king? 21:16:18 <planetmaker> __ln__, sure you can. The question is: will anyone mind? 21:17:00 <Xaroth|Work> the question would be, would belgium be the best place to create an independant nation? 21:17:03 <Xaroth|Work> I mean 21:17:13 <MNIM> and the odd borders that caused remained through the ages in the end to be confirmed by the 1843 treaty of Maastricht which established the borders between the Netherlands and Belgium after the English forced the dutch to back down 21:17:34 <MNIM> So yeah, I'm looking at YOU, england! goddamn meddlers. 21:17:52 <Xaroth|Work> like the dutch never meddled in anything 21:18:06 <MNIM> I swear, England was the USA avant le lettre in terms of meddling with other countries 21:18:09 <Rubidium> they were merely annoying the Netherlands because they were at war at that time 21:18:27 <MNIM> Xaroth: big difference - we only meddle in things we have an economic interest in 21:18:27 <MNIM> :P 21:18:32 <MNIM> we are, after all, the dutch 21:18:41 <Xaroth|Work> you mean we only meddle in things we think we can get a profit out of 21:19:16 * __ln__ is now the king of http://goo.gl/maps/SNcEh living in exile 21:19:45 <Xaroth|Work> you konw 21:19:50 <Xaroth|Work> if you fail to paste that h at the end 21:19:52 <Xaroth|Work> you end up in the US 21:21:02 <Xaroth|Work> also, __ln__: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE_IUPInEuc 21:21:26 <MNIM> But yeah 21:21:52 <MNIM> I still think we should just nuke the UK of the face of the earth for the 1839 mess. 21:22:45 <michi_cc> __ln__: Depending on how historical it should be, Xanten might also be an option to visit. 21:22:47 <planetmaker> no thanks. The fallout would go straight here 21:23:18 <planetmaker> hm... that reminds me, michi_cc :-) Goslar, the old Kaiserpfalz 21:23:25 <planetmaker> ^ __ln__ 21:23:29 <MNIM> planetmaker: you forget we would be in the way, too 21:23:33 <MNIM> but it would be worth it 21:23:44 <MNIM> I swear, that little piece of shit still causes problems. 21:24:40 <Xaroth|Work> __ln__: if you ever get close to amsterdam, try the Amsterdam Dungeon .. fun short thing to do between coffeeshop-hopping and ogling the red light district 21:24:51 <MNIM> besides the fact that it essentially caused the escalation of WW1 (and didn't help at all with WW2) 21:25:36 <Xaroth|Work> planetmaker: depends on the bombs used tbh 21:25:58 <planetmaker> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goslar @ __ln__ 21:25:59 *** Mazur [~mazur@546984B2.cm-12-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:26:22 <__ln__> Xaroth|Work: i've actually been to amsterdam, but we chose to go to madame tussaud's instead :) 21:26:40 <__ln__> Xaroth|Work: and that was an informative video, i'll bookmark it 21:26:51 <Xaroth|Work> practically next to eachother, that and the dungeon :P 21:26:52 <MNIM> it still forces us to keep the Schelde open to the point of destroying Dutch land, it forces us to maintain a railway between Antwerp and the Ruhr industrial area 21:26:54 <Xaroth|Work> dungeon is more fun though 21:26:57 <Xaroth|Work> it has a rollercoaster... 21:26:58 <Xaroth|Work> indoors 21:27:47 *** moslemmasry [~muslimmas@41.234.26.231] has joined #openttd 21:27:48 <MNIM> Though, admittedly, it did keep us out of WW1, I suppose 21:28:19 <__ln__> michi_cc: i'll write that one down too 21:28:22 <MNIM> then again, with belgium attached we probably would have been powerful enough to force the germans to reconsider twice :P 21:28:44 *** moslemmasry [~muslimmas@41.234.26.231] has quit [autokilled: This host violated network policy. If you feel an error has been made, please contact support@oftc.net, thanks. (2013-07-02 21:28:44)] 21:29:04 <Xaroth|Work> MNIM: they are partially french, I'd not expect -that- much from it.. 21:29:30 <MNIM> Xaroth: mainly caused by the fucking fact that we had to retreat from it... 21:30:13 <MNIM> belgium was much less francophone than it is now 21:30:19 <Rubidium> a railway between Antwerp and the Ruhr area? 21:30:22 <MNIM> yes 21:30:24 <Rubidium> you mean that piece of nature? 21:30:38 <MNIM> the Iron Rhine. 21:30:44 <MNIM> Rubidium: No, the industries 21:33:13 <Rubidium> I meant the piece of nature between Budel and Vlodrop 21:34:43 <MNIM> ehh. I meant the german area. 21:34:55 <MNIM> that's why I used the german spelling :P 21:35:11 <Rubidium> the Iron Rhine is dead 21:35:11 *** Elukka [~Elukka@a91-152-213-89.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 21:35:20 <Rubidium> or at least the part in the Netherlands 21:35:49 <planetmaker> good night 21:36:15 <Rubidium> Belgium has to make a decision, but they haven't, so none of the important studies have even been started 21:36:48 <MNIM> good :D 21:37:14 * Rubidium ponders looking up whether that track exists even in their model, and if it does: "is it classified as 'oud ijzer'"? 21:37:44 <Eddi|zuHause> when does belgium ever do decisions? 21:38:05 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't it like every real decision would blow up the government coalition? 21:38:31 <MNIM> pretty much 21:38:43 <MNIM> (then again, the dutch aren't much better at that point) 21:39:07 <MNIM> though it should be mentioned that that at least wouldn't start a civil war over here 21:43:43 <Rubidium> looks like Roermond - Vlodrop is still in the model and not as 'oud ijzer' 21:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> planetmaker: aren't there some ic routes with br218? <-- to westerland/sylt, but that might not be DB Fernverkehr but DB AutoZug instead. and they ordered new diesel engines which they want to reopen Erfurt-Jena-Gera(-Chemnitz?) as IC line, when the doubledecker wagons are delivered (electrifying that line is apparently delayed due to funding problems) 21:45:16 <Rubidium> ... which 1 EUR per ticket will solve 21:45:40 *** Mazur [~mazur@546984B2.cm-12-2c.dynamic.ziggo.nl] has joined #openttd 21:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it's more complicated than that :p 21:46:46 <Eddi|zuHause> because rail infrastructure projects like that must be funded by the federal government 21:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> which is generally short of funds 21:47:16 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.hdsnet.hu] has joined #openttd 21:48:58 *** Progman [~progman@p57A192DB.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:28 <Rubidium> apparantly that br218 also runs near kiel (-> flensburg/luebeck/puttgarden) 21:52:04 <Rubidium> or isn't that far enough for 'fern'? 21:53:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if the train is white with a red line, it's Fernverkehr 21:53:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (most likely) 21:53:58 <Eddi|zuHause> BR 218 are somewhat distributed between the branches of DB 21:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (there are also the similar BR 215, 216 and 225. and possibly some others, with minor or major differences) 21:54:56 <Rubidium> the train planner doesn't seem to tell what's DB Fernverkehr 21:55:28 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's IC or ICE, it's Fernverkehr, if it's RB or RE, it's "Regio" 21:55:48 <Rubidium> it's IC, but it's also in the NLs 21:56:22 <Rubidium> and they change the loc 21:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, if you want to power a diesel train with "renewable engery", all you need is 100% "biofuel" 21:58:35 <Rubidium> but here the track owner buys the electricity, and they don't do green... so IC Berlin isn't running on renewable energy here 21:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that's more of a marketing gag anyway. there's a % of renewable energy in the "energy mix", and as long as not more % are buying the "green" ticket, nothing changes 22:01:07 <Rubidium> it's not that simple 22:01:24 <Rubidium> each train that has a passenger with a "green" ticket must be 100% green 22:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think that is the definition they use :p 22:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> and i don't think they publish any statistics anyway 22:04:35 <Rubidium> "All business travellers registered for the bahn.corporate program will also travel CO2-free on long-distance Deutsche Bahn trains" 22:04:39 <Rubidium> really? 22:04:39 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, the cargo and local trains aren't affected, so they can get more "unrenewable" energy 22:06:29 <Rubidium> "By purchasing electricity directly from renewable sources, DB is preventing any CO2 emissions at all for these long-distance journeys." <- also probably a lie 22:06:47 <Rubidium> at least for bio diesel 22:07:09 <Rubidium> and I doubt wind and solar are enough, so there'll probably be some bio mass stuff as well 22:07:22 <Rubidium> (not to mention the staff) 22:07:32 <Supercheese> hydro? 22:07:53 <Rubidium> don't think there's that much hydro in Germany 22:08:14 <Supercheese> I recall the English specifically going after dams in Germany with their crazy bouncing bombs 22:08:31 *** sla_ro|master [~sla.ro@89.137.75.224] has quit [] 22:08:54 *** Brumi [~quassel@78-131-41-191.pool.hdsnet.hu] has quit [] 22:09:08 <Rubidium> in 2009: hydro and wind was a whopping combined 1.5% 22:09:14 <Rubidium> hydro at ~0.5% 22:10:31 <Terkhen> good night 22:20:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to be careful reading these statistics. there's a difference between total energy mix and electric energy mix, and there is a difference between base power level and peak power level 22:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> water and wind have a much larger fraction of the peak power level, but almost nothing of the base power level 22:23:57 *** gelignite [~gelignite@i5387AB64.versanet.de] has quit [Quit: http://bit.ly/nkczDT] 22:25:32 <Nat_aS> if you listen to wind and solar fanboys, they always produce peak power, and any obsticles standing in the way will be engineered around sooner or later 22:25:53 <Nat_aS> but any problems with nuclear power are apparently inherent in the system and unacceptable. 22:25:55 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@s55978e11.adsl.online.nl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:26:19 <Nat_aS> when oil and coal gets subsides that's bad, but when wind or solar get subsidies it's good 22:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> so. these are 3 totally unrelated (and unfounded) statements 22:30:42 <Xaroth|Work> I have no issues with the concept of nuclear power 22:30:46 <Xaroth|Work> just.. the implementation of it 22:30:58 <Xaroth|Work> I'd rather prefer a LTFR :| 22:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: the point is, when a wind plant explodes, you don't have a 200km zone around it which can't be productively used for the next 100-10000 years 22:31:46 <Nat_aS> well yeah, but the anti-nuke people don't give a shit and are against anything nuclear. 22:31:46 <Xaroth|Work> er, LFTR, even 22:31:48 <Xaroth|Work> I can't spell 22:32:10 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: neither would you with a LFTR ... 22:32:12 <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: when a hydro plant operates as intended, you have an even bigger km zone unusable 22:32:40 <Nat_aS> also, nobody seems to throw as much of a shit when oil or coal plants contaminate just as much land 22:32:48 <Nat_aS> because it's good old fashioned normal polution 22:32:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i've not seen a 200km radius hydro plant 22:32:55 <Nat_aS> instead of magic invisible death 22:33:10 <Nat_aS> I've not seen a 200km radius meltdown 22:33:23 <Nat_aS> Fukashima and 3 mile island both have failed to cause any measurable deaths 22:33:23 <Eddi|zuHause> plus, there are fish and stuff in the hydro plant 22:33:35 *** Devroush [~dennis@dD5765BAC.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:33:36 <Nat_aS> also, fukashima will be safe for human habitation in 2017 22:33:38 <Eddi|zuHause> deaths are besides the point 22:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's an economical disaster 22:33:55 <Nat_aS> wildlife is also flourishing in chernobyl 22:34:10 <Nat_aS> because the presence of humans is worse than radiation 22:34:22 <Nat_aS> Deepwarter horizon is an ecological disaster 22:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is 22:34:31 <Nat_aS> Chernobyl is a political one 22:34:55 <Nat_aS> the ecosystem doesn't care about the elevated levels of radiation in chernobyl. 22:35:02 <Nat_aS> there are places on earth that have more radation. 22:35:31 <Eddi|zuHause> sure, it doesn 22:35:40 <Xaroth|Work> point remains that reactors, as they have been built so far, are not really efficient 22:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> 't matter on an earth-wide scale 22:35:55 <Xaroth|Work> you spend more space on keeping everything in line, than you are producing energy 22:36:02 <Eddi|zuHause> but that doesn't mean it won't have an impact. 22:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> also "blowing up" is not the only reason why nuclear power is impractical 22:36:24 <Nat_aS> Xaroth|Work: but somehow more energy is produced than any other source of power 22:36:42 <Xaroth|Work> Nat_aS: not really 22:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you also have this waste which has to be kept away from people for the next few milennia 22:36:51 <Nat_aS> the energy density for the "inefficient" nuclear plants is still the highest 22:36:54 <Xaroth|Work> a LFTR reactor is much more efficient power wise 22:36:57 <Nat_aS> the waste can be recycled 22:37:03 <Nat_aS> and to be honest 22:37:06 <Xaroth|Work> the waste can not be recycled 22:37:17 <Nat_aS> we won't GET LFTRs unless we invest in neuclear power in general 22:37:18 <Xaroth|Work> it's extremely toxic for hundreds of years 22:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> the "recycled" waste turns out to be even more dangerous 22:37:31 <Xaroth|Work> we won't get LFTRs if we -do- invest in nuclear power 22:37:42 <Xaroth|Work> because there's quite a monopoly on uranium reactors 22:37:46 <Xaroth|Work> and they want to keep it that way 22:37:50 <Xaroth|Work> except for the chinese 22:37:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and what's this LFTR you're talking about? 22:37:59 <Xaroth|Work> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquid_fluoride_thorium_reactor 22:38:07 <Xaroth|Work> basically same concept, only different materials used 22:38:10 <Xaroth|Work> safer, more stable 22:38:16 <Xaroth|Work> very little waste 22:38:40 <Xaroth|Work> (thorium is a few million times more common than uranium) 22:39:12 <Nat_aS> I don't think the uranium reactor lobby is nearly as powerful as you think it is. 22:39:24 <Nat_aS> it's the millions of people who are irratonaly afraid of any kind of reactor 22:39:27 <Nat_aS> no matter how safe 22:39:37 <Nat_aS> that keep LFTR from getting any attention 22:39:43 <Xaroth|Work> people don't matter 22:39:46 <Xaroth|Work> media matters 22:39:53 <Nat_aS> Only old plants melt down,so we should build new ones to replace them 22:39:58 <Nat_aS> but you know why we don't get any new ones 22:39:58 <Xaroth|Work> lobbyists with money can easily twist and turn what the media sais 22:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: i don't really see anything that makes it obviously "safer" (in the sense that when it blows up, it won't produce a 200km uninhabitable zone) 22:40:05 <Nat_aS> because people protest new plants 22:40:20 <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: it WON'T blow up 22:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see that either 22:40:32 <Nat_aS> it is physicaly imposible 22:40:36 <Xaroth|Work> http://energyfromthorium.com/lftr-safety/ 22:40:46 <Nat_aS> an explosion would be defying the laws of physics 22:41:06 <Nat_aS> everything in an LFTR operates are atmospheric pressure. 22:41:21 <Xaroth|Work> plus 22:41:28 <Nat_aS> it lacks the features of Heavy water reactors that make them prone to explosions 22:41:39 <Nat_aS> which actualy have NOTHING to do with the radation by the way 22:41:45 <Xaroth|Work> it's easily capable to make a mechanical form of a dumpvalve for it 22:41:45 <Nat_aS> it's the fact that they use hot steam 22:41:51 <Xaroth|Work> ie. if it goes critical for whatever reason 22:42:06 <Xaroth|Work> it will not be dependant of a computer operated system to defuse itself 22:42:51 <Xaroth|Work> iirc that vid shows how 22:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> EVERY nuclear reactor is CRITICAL. that is the "normal" mode of operation 22:43:22 <Xaroth|Work> critical in operating standards 22:43:32 <Supercheese> critical â supercritical 22:43:48 <Eddi|zuHause> critical = state of sustained chain reaction 22:44:09 <Xaroth|Work> which is nominal operating standards 22:45:06 <Nat_aS> anyways, LFTR is nothing special, there are tons of safe reactor designs, the main problem is you would need the public be willing to allow the construction of new plants 22:45:09 <Nat_aS> which they aren't 22:45:20 <Xaroth|Work> that's because there's a stigma 22:45:21 <Nat_aS> yet at the same time they demand tons of energy to just come out of nowhere 22:45:24 <Xaroth|Work> nuclear != safe 22:45:32 <Xaroth|Work> nuclear == dangerous 22:45:44 <Nat_aS> so in the end they chose fracking 22:45:53 <glx> Xaroth: fusion is safer ;) 22:45:59 <Eddi|zuHause> besides, one of the major problems in fukushima was not the stopping of the chain reaction, but that the remaining radioactive fuel is still producing heat which has to be removed 22:46:04 <Nat_aS> the future of america's power seems to be a mixture of renewables and gas 22:46:17 <Nat_aS> glx: fusion has allways been 50 years away 22:46:24 <Nat_aS> because nobody has invested enough money in it 22:46:28 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: yes 22:46:34 <Xaroth|Work> you need power to keep a nuclear reactor safe 22:46:45 <Xaroth|Work> a LFTR reactor does not 22:46:45 <Nat_aS> there are passively safe reactors 22:46:56 <Nat_aS> which just shut down when they lose external power 22:47:05 <glx> cooling is rarely passive 22:47:12 <Xaroth|Work> those are all built on electronic systems that keep that in line 22:47:17 <Xaroth|Work> problem with those are 22:47:20 <Xaroth|Work> they tend to crash 22:47:25 <Xaroth|Work> or go apeshit 22:47:36 <Xaroth|Work> that's why you want a mechanical way of safety 22:47:39 <Nat_aS> No 22:47:42 <Nat_aS> PASSIVE SAFETY 22:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: again, i see nothing of that sort 22:47:48 <Nat_aS> as in if nothing happens to it 22:47:50 <Nat_aS> it will shut down 22:47:54 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: have you seen the vid i linked last? 22:47:55 <Nat_aS> no electronics 22:47:58 <glx> Nat_aS: fukushima reactor properly shut down 22:47:58 <Xaroth|Work> they show it 22:48:04 <Nat_aS> it needs an active effort to maintain things 22:48:11 <Xaroth|Work> frozen salt plug, kept frozen under normal circumstances 22:48:12 <glx> but cooling system was broken 22:48:13 <Xaroth|Work> if shit goes bad 22:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see vids 22:48:18 <Nat_aS> glx: the fukshima reactor was over 40 years old 22:48:23 <Xaroth|Work> it can't be kept frozen anymore 22:48:28 <Nat_aS> and no, it lost desil power 22:48:37 <Xaroth|Work> as such, plug fails, which results in the thorium flowing to a tank for safety 22:48:38 <Nat_aS> new reactors do not need external power 22:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: so and how do you keep the tank cool? 22:49:07 <Xaroth|Work> you don't have to 22:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> you do. spent fuel has to be actively cooled for at least 5 years 22:50:08 <Xaroth|Work> spent what fuel? 22:50:08 <Eddi|zuHause> making the fuel liquid doesn't magically solve that 22:50:12 <Xaroth|Work> er 22:50:17 <Xaroth|Work> the L in LFTR stands for liquid 22:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 22:50:35 <Xaroth|Work> it doesn't need to be a certain temperature to be liquid 22:50:55 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but it has to be certain temperature to NOT BLOW UP 22:51:04 <glx> Xaroth: too much heat may vaporise 22:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> (as in chemically explode) 22:52:28 <Nat_aS> the fuel won't even reach a temperature to boil. 22:52:34 <Nat_aS> that would be violating the laws of physics 22:53:08 <Nat_aS> another thing anti-nuke people do is pretend anything neuclear is actively malicious and bending the laws of physics just to cause mayhem 22:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> the fuel is meant to run a steam turbine. of course it produces heat... 22:53:38 <Xaroth|Work> yes 22:53:41 <Xaroth|Work> it runs at 700C 22:53:53 <Xaroth|Work> it won't boil until it goes well above double that 22:54:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it runs at 700°C WHILE HEAT IS ACTIVELY TAKEN OUT 22:54:22 <Nat_aS> just because it produces heat does not mean it will reach a temprature hot enough to boil 22:54:33 <Nat_aS> melting and boiling points are pretty much set in stone 22:54:54 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it does. if you don't dissipate the heat, it will build up 22:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you can stop the chain reaction, but you cannot stop the random fission, so even if the plant is shut down, it will continue to produce heat 22:56:35 <alluke> sending farming supplies ~1000 tiles away on hovercrafts 22:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> STOP WITH THE ON-TOPIC!! 22:58:23 <Nat_aS> the random fusion will not produce nearly as much heat 22:58:30 <Nat_aS> fission rather 22:59:50 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: the thermal energy generated in such a situation can easily be dispersed by a passive cooling system 23:00:01 <Nat_aS> ^ 23:00:01 <Xaroth|Work> i.e. dump the dump-tank into a large quantity of water 23:00:02 <Nat_aS> anywyas 23:00:15 <Nat_aS> I'm looking forward to seeing germany buy neuclear power from france 23:00:22 <Xaroth|Work> as it runs on such a high temperature on normal operation 23:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: again, i have seen nothing that would suggest this 23:00:53 <Xaroth|Work> simple physics 23:00:55 <Xaroth|Work> delta-T 23:01:32 <Xaroth|Work> the system would have to generate more thermal energy, than is dissipated by the surface due to newton's law of cooling 23:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> please tell me how "liquid" fuel suddenly produces less thermal energy than "solid" fuel, which has to be actively cooled for 5 years 23:02:03 <Xaroth|Work> you're missing the point 23:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i am 23:02:11 <Xaroth|Work> it won't go critical until it reaches 1400C + 23:02:12 <Eddi|zuHause> because you're not making one 23:02:16 <Xaroth|Work> it operates at 700C 23:02:29 <Xaroth|Work> that means it has to generate sufficient thermal energy to go from 700C to 1400C 23:02:48 <Xaroth|Work> while counteracting heat decay 23:02:55 <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: you are doing nothing but making yourself sound supersticious 23:03:20 <Nat_aS> it's like you are imagining nuclear power to be some sort of malicious demon that actively tries to cause mischief 23:04:24 <Xaroth|Work> and thermal dissipation can be achieved by simply making it a big enough heatsink 23:04:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: no, i'm just discussing a very likely!! scenario of the power dropping out on the cooling system, after the plant shut down for any reason 23:04:51 <Xaroth|Work> it.does.not.need.that.kind.of.cooling 23:04:53 <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: that problem has been solved by NORMAL reactors that are more modern than Fukashima 23:04:59 <Xaroth|Work> it's not a uranium reactor 23:05:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: you.still.did.not.make.this.point 23:05:07 <Nat_aS> there are regular heavy water reactors that have passive cooling systems 23:05:18 <Nat_aS> Fukashima was build in the 60s 23:05:31 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: I disagree 23:05:52 <Xaroth|Work> it runs on normal atmosphere 23:05:53 <Nat_aS> newer reactors don't have that problem because it was addressed by people more educated than you a long time ago 23:06:02 <Xaroth|Work> all the heat generated by the reaction goes into producing energy 23:06:06 <Eddi|zuHause> well, you made this point multiple times, but you have not supplied any kind of data that supports it 23:06:16 <Nat_aS> modern reactors are safe, LFTRs are even safer 23:06:24 <Xaroth|Work> what kind of data do you want? 23:06:48 <Nat_aS> and even unsafe reactors are the safest way to generate power if you go by deaths per KW hour 23:07:13 *** ProfFrink [~proffrink@46.208.2.126] has joined #openttd 23:07:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that a tank of fuel in subcritical condition (i.w. chain reaction shut down) produces less heat than a conventional (spent) fuel rod 23:07:29 <Xaroth|Work> you're sounding like wendy wright :| 23:07:37 <Nat_aS> http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesconca/2012/06/10/energys-deathprint-a-price-always-paid/ 23:07:40 <Xaroth|Work> you want something, but you don't state what you want 23:09:01 <Xaroth|Work> and uranium reacts differently, keep that in mind 23:09:49 <Xaroth|Work> that's like asking for proof that an airplane without an engine won't go faster than a submarine 23:10:36 <Xaroth|Work> spent fuel rods emit a high amount of radiation 23:10:57 <Xaroth|Work> which makes them slightly more volatile 23:11:03 <Xaroth|Work> and harder to handle 23:11:43 <Xaroth|Work> most spent fuel rods are stored in large tanks of water 23:11:58 <Xaroth|Work> where they are kept safe, as water blocks the radiation it emits 23:12:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and now comes the part where you explain how that won't happen in a liquid thorium reactor 23:12:15 <Xaroth|Work> where -what- won't happen? 23:12:22 <Xaroth|Work> there's no such thing as 'spent fuel rods' in lftrs 23:12:34 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@218.47.113.87.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:12:34 *** ProfFrink is now known as Prof_Frink 23:12:35 <Xaroth|Work> it's a completely different system 23:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> this has no sense. 23:12:52 <Xaroth|Work> they are different materials 23:12:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you're not saying anything 23:12:54 <Xaroth|Work> that behave differently 23:13:03 <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause: you are not listening 23:13:07 <Nat_aS> the information is all there 23:13:11 <Nat_aS> you are chosing to be ignorant 23:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it's like you're the PR guy who had 3 pages of lines he should repeat over and over, until people believe him 23:13:24 <Nat_aS> like many do when it comes to this sort of thing 23:13:37 <Nat_aS> maybe it's your responsibility to educate yourself 23:13:43 <Xaroth|Work> it's like claiming plastic dents because cars use aluminium 23:13:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you have shown nothing that you actually understood any internal physical or chemical details 23:13:51 <Xaroth|Work> yes, both are used for this purpose 23:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> and when i ask you for them, you can't provide any 23:13:57 <Xaroth|Work> but both work entirely differently 23:14:11 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: seriously, are you wendy wright? 23:14:25 <Nat_aS> wendy wright? 23:14:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but you don't actually say HOW plastic and aluminium are different 23:14:39 <Xaroth|Work> ... 23:14:47 <Xaroth|Work> I'm not going to explain you the periodic table 23:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should 23:14:59 <Xaroth|Work> read a science book 23:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> because i studied neither physics nor chemistry. 23:15:24 <Xaroth|Work> yet i'm pretty sure you've seen a periodic table 23:15:26 <Eddi|zuHause> so maybe i'm missing something "obvious" 23:15:40 <Xaroth|Work> one uses the Uranium elements 23:15:43 <Nat_aS> [16:10] <Eddi|zuHause> because i studied neither physics nor chemistry. 23:15:44 <Xaroth|Work> one uses the Thorium elements 23:15:54 <Nat_aS> then shut the fuck up, sorry for the swearing 23:15:55 <Xaroth|Work> two completely different elements 23:15:58 <Xaroth|Work> who have different properties 23:16:08 <Nat_aS> but thsi "My ignorance is just as valid as your knowledge" is irritating. 23:16:14 <Nat_aS> this 23:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> but they're still radioactive, and radioactive decay produces heat 23:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and heat has to be dissipated 23:16:37 <Nat_aS> and heat can be mannaged in a passive mannet 23:16:40 <Nat_aS> manner. 23:17:00 <Nat_aS> there are uranium reactors that have passive cooling for waste products 23:17:00 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but apparently with "solid" fuel, passive cooling isn't enough 23:17:05 <Nat_aS> no, it is 23:17:16 <Xaroth|Work> it is more than enough under normal circumstances 23:17:18 <Nat_aS> Fukashima was just an old design that relied too heavily on active cooling 23:17:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and now i ask you how far liquid fuel differs 23:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and you only say "it differs" 23:17:29 <Nat_aS> and this was a known concern 23:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> without any reasonable explanation 23:17:36 <Nat_aS> there was however another reactor in japan 23:17:43 <Nat_aS> closer to the epicenter of the earthquake 23:17:46 <Nat_aS> that shut down without issue 23:18:02 <Nat_aS> Fukashima was old and due to be decomissioned because it was old and vulnerable 23:18:13 <Nat_aS> it relied on active cooling, which as we all know is a bad idea 23:18:23 <Nat_aS> it is not any sort of inherent flaw 23:18:33 <Xaroth|Work> the main difference between the solid fuel reactors and liquid fuel reactors, is that solid fuel reactors operate under very high pressure 23:18:39 <Xaroth|Work> which means that if shit DOES hit the fan 23:18:58 <Xaroth|Work> the damage caused is far greater 23:19:12 <Xaroth|Work> and because of the high pressure, other means of containing have to be used 23:19:55 <Xaroth|Work> with the liquid fuel reactors, you don't have insane pressure, meaning you can use safer containments, with better "plan oh fuck" systems 23:20:15 <Xaroth|Work> yes, they'll both generate heat constantly 23:20:29 <Xaroth|Work> and no that's not really an issue for either 23:20:45 <Xaroth|Work> it's just less safe for solid fuel than it is for liquid fuel 23:21:14 <Xaroth|Work> you can't flash-drain a solid fuel reactor into an overflow to keep it from doing stuff you don't want 23:21:45 <Xaroth|Work> because the pressure will just fuck shit over 23:22:00 <Eddi|zuHause> and all that may possibly "increase safety", but nothing of that can explain a "can't ever happen" 23:22:19 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is my point 23:22:45 <Xaroth|Work> when a solid fuel reactor has to shut down 23:22:49 <Xaroth|Work> they have to decrease pressure 23:22:56 <Xaroth|Work> once it's in normal levels 23:23:09 <Xaroth|Work> the system can't function 23:23:26 <Xaroth|Work> heat dissipation will be greater or equal to the heat generated 23:24:02 <Xaroth|Work> with liquid fuel, once you stop the reaction, heat dissipation will already be greater than heat generated 23:24:17 <Xaroth|Work> so as Nat_aS said, it can't physically happen 23:24:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and now you give me a table/formula/statistics where you support this statement with facts 23:24:49 <Nat_aS> no 23:24:51 <Nat_aS> find it yourself 23:25:02 <Nat_aS> you can chose to be ignorant if you want 23:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no. find yourself on my ignore list 23:25:13 <Nat_aS> but you have demonstraited that you just want to be ignorant 23:26:02 <Xaroth|Work> o(ja) = ( Tj - Ta ) / Pd 23:26:06 <Eddi|zuHause> if "please prove anything you say" is "ignorance" nowadays, i'm happy to be "ignorant" for the rest of my life 23:26:41 <Xaroth|Work> how is it our task to prove known facts? 23:26:47 <Xaroth|Work> but seriously 23:26:52 <Xaroth|Work> that formula, is completely useless by itsel 23:26:54 <Xaroth|Work> itself 23:27:03 <Nat_aS> I'm just tired of this conversation 23:27:11 <Xaroth|Work> it needs a few thousand variables to be filled in 23:27:54 <Nat_aS> Xaroth is right, it sounds like talking about biology to a creationist. 23:28:04 <Nat_aS> you are arguing from ignorance 23:28:30 <Xaroth|Work> physics isn't 2=1+1 .. well, in the basics it is 23:28:35 <Xaroth|Work> but if you want examples 23:28:36 <Nat_aS> if you don't know about nuclear power, you shouldn't make arguments about it's relitive safety. 23:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i'm arguing from a point where i'm not an expert in this field, and i talk to someone who acts like he knows everything 23:28:43 <Xaroth|Work> you'd have to come up with a test case 23:29:17 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: and it's extremely difficult to explain such facts to people who just go 'prove it' 23:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: nobody you will ever talk to knows as much about <stuff> that you do. if you don't talk to these people, YOU are the ignorant 23:29:55 <Xaroth|Work> I mean, I'm not going to 'prove' thermal dissipation 23:30:22 <Nat_aS> burden of proof, argument from ignorance, and I'm sure there are a few more falacies I've missed 23:30:52 <Nat_aS> also threatening to /ignore somebody and then continuing to argue with them, allways classy. 23:31:18 <Xaroth|Work> Eddi|zuHause: at the same time you expect proof as if you had knowledge of the subject, while you do not have sufficient knowledge 23:31:50 <Xaroth|Work> even I don't know -all- the formulas and calculations 23:31:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth|Work: i have a basic knowledge of physics and chemistry. but you're not even referencing sources or citing statistics 23:31:56 <Xaroth|Work> I know it's been peer reviewed 23:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you're just saying "it is like it is." 23:32:12 <Xaroth|Work> statistics are irrelevant 23:32:17 <Xaroth|Work> they are dependant of variables 23:32:36 <Xaroth|Work> you can't throw a wikipedia table to this 23:32:44 <Xaroth|Work> you'd have to make a valid test case 23:32:53 <Xaroth|Work> with all variables accounted for 23:32:58 <Xaroth|Work> things like amount of liquid 23:32:59 <Xaroth|Work> size of tank 23:33:04 <Xaroth|Work> thickness of tank walls 23:33:09 <Xaroth|Work> materials of which the tank walls comprise 23:33:15 <Xaroth|Work> materials surrounding the tank 23:33:21 <Xaroth|Work> materials IN the tank, other than the liquid 23:33:51 <Xaroth|Work> it's simply not doable to go in such extreme depths to explain all that 23:34:02 <Xaroth|Work> just because you want it explained in laymans terms 23:34:08 <Xaroth|Work> the data has been peer reviewed 23:34:19 <Xaroth|Work> the people who know that stuff better than any other have looked at it 23:34:21 <Xaroth|Work> and they all agree 23:34:31 <Xaroth|Work> (or at least, none of them bothered to disagree) 23:35:27 <Xaroth|Work> and now i go snooze 23:35:30 <Xaroth|Work> it's too late for me 23:36:07 <Eddi|zuHause> if you say "it has been peer reviewed", then there must be a publication. but then you don't cite it. 23:36:23 <Eddi|zuHause> your entire mode of discussion feels wrong 23:36:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and that's why i'm still not believing anything you say 23:40:16 <Nat_aS> how do you think we feel? 23:43:39 *** Alice3 [~Alice@cpc18-grim14-2-0-cust478.12-3.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [] 23:59:50 *** Ttech [~ttech@00014919.user.oftc.net] has joined #openttd