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00:00:43 <supermop_Home> if the spanning members are all so thin there is no need for such thick columns unless its some 80s PoMo thing 00:00:57 <mcbanhas> I don't like the opengfx maglev station either tbh 00:01:54 <supermop_Home> the solution is to not use it, but i feel like its trying to hint at a complex space frame or tensile roof, so may as well do it right 00:02:26 *** gnu_jj has quit IRC 00:02:47 <mcbanhas> why dont you design a new one? 00:03:11 <mcbanhas> or use any newgrf with alternative designs 00:03:21 <supermop_Home> the monorail one looks like a natural progression in style from the rail one 00:04:25 <supermop_Home> well its maybe an issue of principle.. advocating to replace the one in opengfx seems crazy 00:04:33 <mcbanhas> why so 00:04:45 <mcbanhas> if you think the design could be improved 00:05:05 <mcbanhas> It's graphics, after all, it's a matter of aesthetics 00:05:15 <supermop_Home> because adding a new one via new grf is an option, and presumably someone drew the current one and might be offended 00:05:46 <mcbanhas> That's true, but that's a bad argument to keep outdated or poorly designed graphics 00:05:48 <supermop_Home> also many players have a new grf mindset of always add, more options, 00:06:05 <supermop_Home> and would want both the 'new' and the old 00:06:15 <mcbanhas> There's nothing wrong with proposing a change 00:06:32 <supermop_Home> so an incremental tweak of the current sprite would seem more sucessfull 00:06:33 <mcbanhas> There will always be someone that doesn't like it, it's inevitable 00:06:48 <mcbanhas> That sounds like a good idea :) 00:07:10 <supermop_Home> planetmaker do you still care for opengfx? 00:07:11 <mcbanhas> As they say in my country, you can't please both Greeks and Trojans 00:08:12 <mcbanhas> tbh I also wish there was a difference between railway and electrified railway stations 00:08:31 <mcbanhas> Merely because I think OpenGFX has a lack of old-timey stations :) 00:09:17 <mcbanhas> The earliest station already a looks a bit too modern for the 1930s 00:10:08 <supermop_Home> ah 00:10:21 <supermop_Home> it looks positively Victorian to me 00:10:50 <supermop_Home> the monorail one could really fit from 1960 to 2060 in my opinion though 00:11:52 <supermop_Home> and architecturally could technically have shown up in the 30s at some worlds fair pavillion 00:12:29 <mcbanhas> Heh, maybe I'm simply not so acquainted with British railways architecture 00:14:29 <supermop_Home> but the maglev one is not just an odd architectural style, it is also drawn oddly 00:14:39 <supermop_Home> which is my main issue with it 00:15:30 *** gnu_jj has joined #openttd 00:15:35 <mcbanhas> Well just write a proposal. Draw some inspiration from the few real maglev stations out there. 00:15:52 <mcbanhas> At best it will be considered and put to a vote. 00:15:55 <supermop_Home> well they often do have weird spaceframe sheds 00:15:57 <mcbanhas> At worst, we'll get a newGRF 00:16:34 <mcbanhas> tbh I dont even know what one looks like 00:17:29 <supermop_Home> it might make more sense to draw a new more modest monorail station and bump the monorail one to maglev 00:17:31 <supermop_Home> https://images.app.goo.gl/NsEAkCfgfRzvGwc98 00:17:52 <supermop_Home> actually the shanghai one is pretty basic technically 00:17:58 <supermop_Home> just an arched shed 00:18:45 <mcbanhas> I think switching designs would be confusing 00:19:03 <mcbanhas> what about the chuo shinkansen stations? 00:19:36 <supermop_Home> and the JR maglev station looks like a bus shelter: 00:19:37 <supermop_Home> https://images.app.goo.gl/vgRZuvSXGBb4CaWdA 00:21:02 <mcbanhas> It's still a test track after all 00:21:14 <supermop_Home> presumably once the build the rest of the route the major stations will get something nicer 00:21:21 <mcbanhas> Looks like you gotta have to look at some concepts 00:21:54 <supermop_Home> but most regular shinkansen platforms has pretty simple shed roofs 00:22:51 <supermop_Home> i real life passengers look at the headhouse from the street, not the roof of the platform from the air 00:23:06 <glx> hmm now I think the screenshot I linked used rail conversion tool 00:23:17 <supermop_Home> so its usually not the place you spend your architectural budget 00:24:28 <supermop_Home> this tensile awning is nice, even though clearly it is the entrance to a building not a platform: 00:24:29 <supermop_Home> https://images.app.goo.gl/Bn4VnEQg7cL5H5Yz5 00:25:21 <mcbanhas> looks very nice 00:25:29 <supermop_Home> very renzo 00:27:05 <supermop_Home> from above it would just be a white oval though 00:27:51 <supermop_Home> and as Eddi|zuHause would point out, the more dramatic you make a building in game, the more ridiculous and tiring it gets to see it all over the map 00:28:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i did say such things occasionally 00:30:37 <supermop_Home> a subtle Renzo or calatrava looking thing might work though 00:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's not a problem with the extravagant buildings themselves, but with the limited amount of them available in the game 00:30:48 <mcbanhas> making it leaf shape wouldn't look bad tho 00:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> if you build 100 stations in the game, you need 90 basic ones and 10 extravagant ones. if you only have 1 basic type and 5 extravagant types, then you run out of options 00:32:04 <supermop_Home> yeah 00:32:10 <Eddi|zuHause> extravagant ones lose their charm if repeated 00:33:03 <supermop_Home> honestly if the drag and drop default station just didn't have the big roof, and you have to intentionally build it, that might help a lot 00:33:37 <supermop_Home> 90 identical stations of plain platforms is pretty acceptable 00:34:03 <supermop_Home> every station having a big Victorian shed is kind of odd 00:34:16 <glx> ah no, quick checked in game, and indeed all stations have the same roof with dos and windows original 00:34:45 <glx> but I like the monorail version of opengfx 00:35:05 <supermop_Home> glx the tto /d shed roof could conceivably look both old and modern 00:35:05 <glx> and yes maglev is weird 00:35:40 <glx> anyway I can't use opengfx personally, I'm lost with the icons :) 00:36:13 <supermop_Home> i guess any near future large shed roof would probably just be a simple expanse of PV panels 00:36:57 <mcbanhas> I would try something leaf shaped for maglev. or tubular shaped, like the bridges 00:37:21 <mcbanhas> Everyday I cross the Sloterdijk station on my way to work and I love it 00:37:44 <glx> for landscape and buildings opengfx is nice, but the gui side I can't 00:37:53 <mcbanhas> https://photos.wikimapia.org/p/00/01/00/85/97_big.jpg 00:37:54 <supermop_Home> everyday i walk from my bedroom to the other room for work 00:37:58 <supermop_Home> and i see no stations 00:38:17 <mcbanhas> https://www.amsterdamtips.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/amsterdam-sloterdijk.jpg 00:39:01 <supermop_Home> mcbanhas that's the kind of building that could have been built from 1970 to 2070 00:39:07 <supermop_Home> so it works well 00:39:18 <mcbanhas> https://www.amsterdamtips.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/amsterdam-sloterdijk-station.jpg 00:39:37 <mcbanhas> It looks a bit like the tubular bridge we have right now 00:39:43 <mcbanhas> you could essentially expand that concept 00:39:48 <mcbanhas> just an idea 00:40:51 <supermop_Home> when we were still allowed to go the office, i walk by this station every day: 00:40:52 <supermop_Home> https://images.app.goo.gl/SiuEJbJnNbZZqqPY9 00:40:58 <supermop_Home> not much to look at 00:41:16 <mcbanhas> lol 00:41:22 <glx> anyway once the station is built you can "repaint" it track by track to remove the roof :) 00:41:50 <glx> or even tile by tile 00:42:16 <mcbanhas> https://live.staticflickr.com/1721/40701375700_c4a3eb2346_b.jpg this is a metro station in my country 00:42:30 <supermop_Home> glx i used to do that to chop up the ttd roofs to make weird butterfly shapes etc 00:42:31 <mcbanhas> https://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/0b/39/d9/d3/olaias-metro-station.jpg 00:44:12 <mcbanhas> regardles, just try making an alternate station. It can always make a nice newgrf 00:48:02 <supermop_Home> slippery slope, start futzing with the pixels, then i'll be firing up rhino to model compound surfaces, then grasshopper 00:48:35 <supermop_Home> which i was doing til 5 last night freezing my computer many times 00:48:50 <mcbanhas> what is rhino? 00:49:25 <supermop_Home> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhinoceros_3D 00:49:49 <supermop_Home> nurbs surface modeller 00:49:53 <mcbanhas> I see 00:50:07 <supermop_Home> what i spend most of my work time in when im lucky 00:50:20 <supermop_Home> (photoshop and InDesign when unlucky) 00:51:26 <mcbanhas> ok I'm out 00:51:31 *** mcbanhas has quit IRC 01:06:19 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 01:10:09 *** TooTallTyler has joined #openttd 01:53:46 <Speeder> what is a good proportion of city/town? 01:53:54 <Speeder> or that is not really relevant usually? 02:07:50 *** debdog has joined #openttd 02:11:11 *** D-HUND has quit IRC 02:41:15 *** Flygon has joined #openttd 02:44:09 *** glx has quit IRC 02:57:57 <Speeder> what encoding openttd uses? 02:58:03 <Speeder> my script made my towns all have crazy names 03:21:53 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 03:22:23 *** TooTallTyler has quit IRC 03:30:31 *** Smedles has quit IRC 03:41:39 <Eddi|zuHause> almost always UTF8 03:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> however, if you use NFO to make a town name generator, UTF8 strings need a special character as prefix 04:07:34 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 04:24:39 <Speeder> after I saved the script in windows encoding it worked 04:24:51 <Speeder> now I need to figure out how to scroll back on the script log more than the default 04:24:53 <Speeder> :/ 04:38:57 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 05:13:01 *** snail_UES_ is now known as Guest25026 05:13:01 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 05:18:14 *** Guest25026 has quit IRC 05:27:06 *** snail_UES_ has quit IRC 05:38:08 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 05:49:18 *** supermop_Home has quit IRC 05:52:05 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 06:13:35 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd 07:00:35 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 08:22:53 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 08:27:41 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 08:28:03 *** Laedek has quit IRC 08:54:24 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 08:56:02 *** Samu has joined #openttd 08:56:53 <Samu> hi 08:58:50 *** Smedles has quit IRC 09:05:06 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 09:10:33 *** Smedles has quit IRC 09:11:56 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 09:12:03 *** cHawk- has quit IRC 09:16:44 *** Smedles has quit IRC 09:18:04 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 09:21:56 *** Smedles has quit IRC 09:26:47 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 09:32:14 *** Smedles has quit IRC 09:37:13 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 09:47:04 *** Smedles has quit IRC 09:48:18 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 09:53:16 *** Smedles has quit IRC 09:54:31 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 09:58:27 *** Smedles has quit IRC 09:59:46 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:03:39 *** Smedles has quit IRC 10:04:52 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:08:50 *** Smedles has quit IRC 10:10:07 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:18:54 *** cHawk- has joined #openttd 10:23:33 *** Smedles has quit IRC 10:24:48 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:28:14 *** Smedles has quit IRC 10:29:28 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:32:56 *** Smedles has quit IRC 10:34:11 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:38:38 *** Smedles has quit IRC 10:39:59 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 10:41:19 *** mcbanhas has joined #openttd 10:41:23 <mcbanhas> Hello 10:42:59 <andythenorth> hi 10:49:24 *** Laedek has joined #openttd 10:50:38 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: "Then all of these have to be changed for consistency, ..." 10:51:23 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I'm still unsure whether I will keep the middle of sentence ones lowercase, as they don't refer to building names per se 10:51:32 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Which do you propose to change? It's not clear if that means de-capitalizing the depot strings or re-capitalizing something else 10:51:37 <mcbanhas> They refer to A train depot 10:51:50 <mcbanhas> Not THE Wartington Train Depot 10:51:56 <FLHerne> Yes 10:52:39 <FLHerne> Well, as per my comment, I really dislike capitalizing Arbitrary Nouns in sentences anyway ;-) 10:52:52 <FLHerne> I know some games do it, but it annoys me :p 10:53:40 <FLHerne> (well noun phrase there) 10:54:02 <mcbanhas> I think that for resource names at least, it is important 10:54:47 <mcbanhas> But I think this is a good standard for building names: if a generic reference, lowercase, if a given name of a building, capitalized 10:54:54 <FLHerne> I don't see why 10:55:15 <FLHerne> With the base cargos, you can see what it's carrying at a glance anyway 10:55:55 <mcbanhas> It's more of a matter of drawing your attention to elements in sentences. 10:56:55 <mcbanhas> Using lowercase for everything can make certain things go a little less noticed. This is why unit names and resource names tend to be capitalized in RTS and such 10:57:00 <FLHerne> Ok, but I don't think that's important enough for usability to overcome it looking horrible 10:57:12 <FLHerne> OpenTTD isn't really an RTS, the player's not in a hurry :P 10:57:15 <mcbanhas> It doesn't look horrible for me. 10:58:22 <FLHerne> Then we disagree 10:58:51 <FLHerne> andythenorth: ^ text formatting bikeshed argument? 10:59:13 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 10:59:19 <andythenorth> just don't make it worse 10:59:23 * andythenorth evaluating CDNs 10:59:28 <andythenorth> not going to join you 10:59:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: My other objection is that the "...of some cargo" strings are provided by grfs 10:59:59 <FLHerne> So if you're using ECS, FIRS, etc. you'll end up with half being capitalized and half not 11:00:04 <FLHerne> Which is even worse 11:00:35 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Oh well, we shall do without your expertise in silly questions :-( 11:04:02 <mcbanhas> Again, I think changing style rules doesn't fall into the same scope as breaking userland. Some mods already break textual consistency by having different capitalization of their own. There was a good example posted the other day here. https://imgur.com/a/Y7fpwjk 11:04:38 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 11:04:45 <mcbanhas> You can see on the vehicles window, the mod text uses sentence capitalization whereas the original text uses title capitalization 11:05:12 <_dp_> hm... I wonder if it's possible to make newgfr with sky instead of water and islands floating in it xD 11:05:18 <mcbanhas> This will always happen. It's inevitable, but avoidable, hence why there is a style guide now so mods can follow it too 11:06:21 <FLHerne> _dp_: It would all look a bit dull, because of water tiles being identical? 11:06:48 <_dp_> FLHerne, there can always be some cloud objects or smth 11:06:48 <FLHerne> You'd need to place a ton of objects or something to make fake clouds in the 'sky' 11:06:55 <FLHerne> ^^ 11:07:06 <_dp_> they can even be industries :p 11:07:10 <mcbanhas> You could place large clouds 11:07:36 <mcbanhas> And make them dynamic objects that move 11:07:42 <mcbanhas> Would be an interesting setting 11:07:48 <mcbanhas> Sorta like Zeal in Chrono Trigger 11:07:48 <FLHerne> Yeah, I keep forgetting NewObjects can be bigger than a couple of tiles, no-one does that 11:07:58 <FLHerne> They can't move, though :P 11:08:28 <FLHerne> Well, they could graphically drift around within their own area, but that would look a bit odd 11:11:34 <mcbanhas> Also, once we're done with style changes, it would actually be neat if a blog post could be made about it, so modders take notice of it and start writing their texts accordingly 11:12:38 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, right now I'm more concerned on how we should spell Game Script 11:12:45 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Like that 11:13:09 <mcbanhas> Some people were saying "GameScript" or Game-Script" 11:13:18 <FLHerne> "Game script" doesn't make sense, and "game script" doesn't stand out enough 11:13:25 <mcbanhas> I don't entirely oppose the former given it woul go along well with NewGRF 11:13:27 <andythenorth> NoGO 11:13:46 <andythenorth> https://docs.openttd.org/gs-api/ 11:13:48 <andythenorth> it's GameScript 11:13:54 <andythenorth> for better or worse 11:14:07 <FLHerne> "GameScript" as TrueBrain pointed out isn't used anywhere atm, and we don't really need *more* variations 11:14:26 <mcbanhas> >"Game script" doesn't make sense, and "game script" doesn't stand out enough <--- This is why I want to capitalize resource names ^^ 11:14:27 <FLHerne> And "Game-Script" was clearly invented by a German speaker p 11:14:44 <Samu> GS 11:15:05 <mcbanhas> Guys, I will leave this one entirely up to you 11:15:12 <mcbanhas> Pick one 11:15:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: It's not obvious that "game script" refers to a particular type of thing, rather than just 'some sort of scripting for games' 11:15:50 <FLHerne> Whereas coal really is just coal 11:15:54 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd 11:15:54 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai|noir 11:16:29 <FLHerne> There's no special OpenTTD concept of "Coal" that players should consider differently from coal in general 11:16:54 <FLHerne> Which is why I dislike it, actually 11:17:18 <FLHerne> OpenTTD (especially the way I tend to play it) tends to be pretty realistic 11:18:22 <FLHerne> My trains aren't carrying the special OTTD resource "Coal", they're just coal trains :P 11:18:41 <_dp_> lol, I was just thinking that openttd can really use some fantasy settings xD 11:18:58 <_dp_> instead of being stuck in this weird realistic-but-not-really spot xD 11:18:59 <FLHerne> (you should probably ask someone else at some point) 11:19:15 <_dp_> except for bloody toyland xD 11:19:38 <FLHerne> I love the fact that no-one remembers that exists 11:19:55 <FLHerne> You could play "The Game", except you lose when you remember there's a Toyland mode 11:20:11 <Samu> GS is AI 11:20:18 <Samu> 's brother 11:20:31 <andythenorth> oof so I just lost 11:20:42 <andythenorth> that's probably months or years you've ruined there FLHerne 11:20:53 <andythenorth> I'd even forgotten about the damn Game 11:22:53 *** tokai has quit IRC 11:23:12 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, it's important to make resource names stand out I think 11:23:50 <mcbanhas> Improves readability of relevant elements 11:24:11 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: You're never going to persuade me, so ask some more people ;-) 11:24:52 <mcbanhas> Can we decide upon a spelling for game script then? 11:24:56 *** Borg has joined #openttd 11:25:04 <Borg> scary..... scaaary.. 11:25:18 <Borg> newgrf_storage.h: ClearChanges() 11:25:24 <Borg> I really.. dont get it... 11:26:44 * _dp_ thinks resources need icons 11:26:57 <mcbanhas> _dp_, i think so to 11:54:30 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 11:54:43 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 12:02:06 <Samu> I tried to investigate this https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/issues/7603 but it's too much for my head 12:21:25 <_dp_> first one may actually be the desync I saw yesterday 12:22:21 <mcbanhas> LordAro, do you prefer Game Script or GameScript? 12:32:32 <andythenorth> Game Script is better 12:32:40 <andythenorth> despite what I said earlier about official docs 12:33:26 <andythenorth> oof I'd rather not have to fix this though https://wiki.openttd.org/NoGo 12:33:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/nml] FLHerne commented on pull request #142: Fix #139: Make --cache-dir work and don't create a directory when --no-cache is given. https://git.io/JfBW2 12:33:54 <mcbanhas> I can fix that wiki doc 12:33:56 <LordAro> mcbanhas: yeah, Game Script is better 12:34:37 <andythenorth> I think that wiki page has a full bingo board 12:34:52 <andythenorth> every possible permutation of Gamescript Game Script gamescript etc 12:35:10 <LordAro> :D 12:35:41 <mcbanhas> LordAro, alright. I'll just do some extra changes to building name capitalization and then submit one more version, which hopefully will be the final one 12:36:00 <mcbanhas> (for the capitalization changes that is) 12:36:25 <mcbanhas> Then batch two with all the rewrites will be pushed afterwards. It's gonna be fun. 12:37:00 <FLHerne> LordAro: Do you have an opinion on capitalizing cargo names? 12:37:33 <FLHerne> I strongly dislike "137 tons of Coal", but mcbanhas is equally adamant that it's necessary 12:37:49 <andythenorth> well I won't be changing FIRS for that 12:37:52 <FLHerne> So needs a tie-breaker 12:37:54 <andythenorth> it's not worth a proper noun 12:38:12 <LordAro> yeah, it is a bit odd like that 12:38:14 <andythenorth> I go back and forth in changelogs etc on capitalising cargos and industries 12:38:30 <LordAro> i get the argument, but yeah, 'coal' 12:38:44 <mcbanhas> technically you only have to change the capitalization in game andythenorth 12:38:48 <andythenorth> in a changelog I would write 'New cargo: Coal' 12:38:52 <mcbanhas> documentation you can write whatever you want 12:39:03 <andythenorth> but I would also write: 'Icons for coal, steel, sheep' etc 12:39:14 <andythenorth> very inconsistent 12:39:35 <Samu> when in doubt, capitalize everything 12:39:36 <FLHerne> Oh, capitalization after a colon was the other thing we disagreed about and haven't already settled 12:40:36 <FLHerne> There's a change "Warning: Server administrators may..." to "Warning: server administrators may...", and that just looks wrong to me 12:40:54 <FLHerne> Although it's true that some manuals of style prefer the latter 12:40:57 <andythenorth> I thought GB English settled that one 12:41:08 <andythenorth> I was never aware of it being ok to capitalise non-nouns there 12:41:15 <andythenorth> I didn't really do English in school though 12:41:35 <FLHerne> Well, it's a noun phrase :P 12:41:36 <andythenorth> hmm 12:41:40 <andythenorth> I didn't really do school 12:41:42 <andythenorth> fixed it 12:41:46 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I'm with the most manuals of style on that one: you don't capitalize after a colon unless it's a title or a paragraph break 12:41:50 <FLHerne> "Server administrators", I mean 12:42:17 * andythenorth school attendance GCSE year: 50% 12:42:19 <andythenorth> hurrah 12:42:26 * andythenorth found school boring 12:42:34 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I looked at Chicago, it also says "introduces more than one sentence" or so 12:42:37 <FLHerne> Of course, this is one 12:42:57 <mcbanhas> Can you show me the link 12:43:13 <FLHerne> https://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/book/ed17/part2/ch06/psec063.html 12:43:26 <FLHerne> s/more than one/two or more/, so same meaning 12:44:20 <mcbanhas> I can't open that. You have paid subscription? 12:44:35 <mcbanhas> oh wait there's a 30 day free trial 12:45:31 <FLHerne> Yes, that 12:45:45 <FLHerne> (so we have to get this done within 30 days :D) 12:45:59 <FLHerne> Well, 29, because I subscribed yesterday to see what it said 12:49:08 <andythenorth> mumble https://bordeure.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/the-economist-style-guide.pdf 12:51:12 <mcbanhas> It's not introducing two or more sentences in this case though. 12:51:48 <FLHerne> " 12:51:50 <FLHerne> The mystery was explained: The impala 12:51:51 <FLHerne> on the menu was an animal, not a car. The British would treat this 12:51:53 <FLHerne> as a simple sentence with only an initial capital letter. 12:51:54 <FLHerne> " 12:52:23 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Ok, I think the written authorities are conclusively on your side here also 12:53:13 <mcbanhas> I wish I would've finished the chapter on punctuation now. 12:53:25 <FLHerne> ^that follows "When a colon precedes a full sentence or question rather than a phrase, Americans sometimes follow the colon with a capital letter." 12:53:35 <FLHerne> in andythenorth's link 12:53:39 <mcbanhas> andythenorth, thank you for the link, this is a very nice resource. 12:53:49 <andythenorth> p. 115 12:54:17 <andythenorth> I own the actual book paid for several times over, I don't feel bad sharing that PDF :) 12:54:18 <mcbanhas> Yeah, I'm aware, but this is EN-UK language we're editing here. 12:54:37 <FLHerne> My quote was from p144 12:54:51 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Yes, that's why I said "Ok, I think the written authorities are conclusively on your side" 12:55:08 <mcbanhas> Alright 12:56:46 <mcbanhas> So what do you guys want for capitalizing resources again? 12:59:08 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: I think LordAro, andythenorth and I were all against it? 12:59:24 <FLHerne> I might be more vehemently against it than them though 13:00:41 <FLHerne> I expect frosch would be against it, given his previous opinions about NewGRF compatibility, but he's not here 13:02:47 *** supermop_Home_ has joined #openttd 13:03:12 <supermop_Home_> hi 13:09:09 *** glx has joined #openttd 13:09:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v glx 13:35:46 *** snail_UES_ has joined #openttd 13:39:38 *** nielsm has joined #openttd 13:40:53 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 13:46:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <FLHerne> I strongly dislike "137 tons of Coal", but mcbanhas is equally adamant that it's necessary <-- as a german, i have no problem with that, but it doesn't look right for the english that i learned 13:49:53 <FLHerne> There's no question it's grammatically wrong, the suggestion is that capitalizing it makes it easier for players to recognize the information 13:50:34 <FLHerne> (which it probably does, but IMO not enough to be worth it) 13:59:11 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino opened pull request #8146: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBuR 13:59:23 <mcbanhas> There's is currently an inconsistency with some lines though, have a look. 13:59:35 <mcbanhas> This line STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT :All but {CARGO_LIST} 13:59:42 <mcbanhas> Produces this 14:00:28 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8146: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBu2 14:01:04 <mcbanhas> https://i.imgur.com/w5maEoc.png 14:02:00 <supermop_Home_> really you could hand truck a couple barrels into the parcels area of those power cars 14:02:01 <mcbanhas> There's no way around this unless we produce a bunch of new, uncapitalized strings for every resource. 14:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> you can already do that, with "cases" 14:02:49 <mcbanhas> supermop_Home_, as p/ the current events in the oil industry, definitely, haha 14:04:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8105: Fix: OpenGFX download link did no longer work. https://git.io/JfBuD 14:04:55 <Eddi|zuHause> not suggesting that this would be a route to pursue, but you can do "STR_WHATEVER" and "STR_WHATEVER.capital" 14:05:21 <Eddi|zuHause> with a bit of extra fuzz 14:06:01 <mcbanhas> Yeah that's what I'm saying, but that would mean adding more strings, and it would mean mods would also have to add a lot more strings, as opposed to just regularizing the use of capitals for resources 14:06:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino closed pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBuR 14:06:44 <Eddi|zuHause> this should have no effect on existing mods, or other languages 14:06:45 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBuQ 14:07:39 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro reopened pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBuR 14:07:40 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBu5 14:08:04 <Eddi|zuHause> but, i really shouldn't get involved in this discussion, as i'm not going to play the game in english 14:08:26 <Eddi|zuHause> and there's no question on how to do this in german 14:09:32 <mcbanhas> There's a third possibility 14:09:57 <mcbanhas> We make an uncapitalized string for every resource 14:10:26 <mcbanhas> And we make a generic STR_QUANTITY_ string 14:11:06 <mcbanhas> Although the plurals would have to be adjusted accordingly 14:11:59 <mcbanhas> Tbh it's much easier to just make resources capitalized and it comes with readability benefits 14:13:29 <mcbanhas> There is a fourth option, though 14:13:56 <mcbanhas> we can rewrite STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT with colons 14:14:25 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 14:14:27 <mcbanhas> So it would be something like All except: Oil 14:14:43 <mcbanhas> No wait, that wont do 14:14:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i also thought of that, but that is a design choice, not a style choice, and would have to be made consistent across all languages 14:15:14 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Doesn't that contradict the previous discussion? 14:15:44 <FLHerne> fragments after a colon should definitely not be capitalized 14:16:00 <FLHerne> (and the colon looks odd anyway) 14:16:10 <mcbanhas> Not necessarily. If introducing lists of items, capitalization after colons is fine. But it wont do for another reason. There's colons already being using in the UI label "refittable to:" 14:16:11 <FLHerne> Should just be lowercase there too 14:16:34 <mcbanhas> So that's out of the picture 14:16:39 <FLHerne> "All but oil" is fine 14:17:02 <supermop_Home_> FLHerne i would certainly expect list items following a colon to be capitalized 14:17:12 <mcbanhas> Then we need a bunch of new strings to make it lowercase 14:17:43 <mcbanhas> But frankly, just making resources capitalized makes more sense now 14:18:17 <mcbanhas> I was actually close to conceding to lowercase until I saw this string 14:18:22 <supermop_Home_> there is certainly a difference between the grammar taught in school that you might write a book with, and a functional style to produce a quickly readable UI 14:18:26 <mcbanhas> And maybe there are more 14:18:28 <FLHerne> I don't see why you need new strings for that? 14:18:51 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, look at how the string works 14:19:09 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/JfBzZ 14:19:37 <mcbanhas> STR_PURCHASE_INFO_ALL_BUT :All but {CARGO_LIST} 14:21:53 <planetmaker> Hm, do we accept new townname lists now all of a sudden? #8146 14:23:27 <nielsm> pretty sure that should be a newgrf 14:23:38 <planetmaker> that was my immediate thought, too 14:24:04 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBzP 14:26:20 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] planetmaker commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBzS 14:27:40 <LordAro> i did wonder 14:27:56 <LordAro> but since it wasn't altering an existing list... 14:29:33 <planetmaker> I don't think it sets good precedent. The existing lists are bad. Very bad for the map sizes we support. So starting with better lists (like this) will immediately spawn bug reprots and feature requests for the existing 14:30:38 <FLHerne> planetmaker: I don't really see why that's a problem, given that they're very bad :p 14:30:44 <planetmaker> IMHO the better approach would be to somewhat integrate the search for newgrf townnames even more closely... like tying in a content search for those where townnames are added (that's unfortunately in a completely different place than all other newgrfs) 14:30:55 <FLHerne> There must be *some* way to not break compatibility 14:31:04 <planetmaker> FLHerne, yes... NewGRFs ;) 14:31:22 <FLHerne> (e.g. the suggestion to use the existing list first, then any new components) 14:31:27 <mcbanhas> Then we gotta throw away all international list names. 14:31:35 <supermop_Home_> planetmaker or quietly improve some of the bad lists and strenuously deny that you ever did? 14:31:35 <planetmaker> But you must retain the lists which you ever implemented for eternity in order to keep savegame load capability 14:31:38 <FLHerne> planetmaker: But that gives a very bad default experience in most languages 14:31:48 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, I agree 14:31:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not opposed to adding new lists, but we should reconsider the idea to make snapshots of the current generators, and reimplement thtem in a futureproof manner 14:32:00 <planetmaker> improving means basically "add another with a version check for that language". That gets really messy quickly 14:32:16 <FLHerne> planetmaker: > (e.g. the suggestion to use the existing list first, then any new components) ? 14:32:42 <planetmaker> that's not how it works @FLHerne . There is logic in them. They're not just stupid lists 14:32:48 <FLHerne> The existing stupid names are a given, and just as bad in so-called "English" as everything else 14:32:56 <planetmaker> names are composed 14:33:02 <FLHerne> I know 14:33:17 <FLHerne> But still, there's a finite and enumerable number of composable names, which is the problem 14:33:24 <planetmaker> not really 14:33:32 <FLHerne> Most non-English languages have too few for current possible map sizes 14:33:53 <planetmaker> you can have composition rules as you like. It's not strictly countable nor is the number of elements predictable 14:34:08 <planetmaker> countable. But not finite necessarily :P 14:34:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really true 14:34:44 <FLHerne> Having a fallback "the classic generator couldn't produce another name, so use a new one" shoul fix it without breaking old saves 14:34:56 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 14:34:57 <FLHerne> Er, how can they possibly not be finite? 14:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no loop system, it's always going to be finite 14:35:31 <nielsm> well I suppose max 4.2 billion is finite 14:35:44 <nielsm> (if enough compositions are provided) 14:35:50 <nielsm> compositions/components 14:35:54 <planetmaker> :) 14:36:00 <FLHerne> nielsm: For the hypothetical languages with 4.2 billion, there's no problem 14:36:06 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino opened pull request #8147: Release/1.10 https://git.io/JfBgI 14:36:11 <FLHerne> The problem is Finnish where there are 300 or something 14:36:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can always give an upper bound on the number of combinations 14:36:17 <nielsm> but yes it's possible to calculate the max number of names generatable by each generator 14:36:29 <FLHerne> Because that means large maps flat-out don't work with Finnish selected 14:36:41 <planetmaker> yes. But that means you cannot fix it in terms of logic 14:36:41 <FLHerne> (well, can't generate a suitable number of towns) 14:36:53 <FLHerne> planetmaker: Why? 14:37:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed pull request #8147: Release/1.10 https://git.io/JfBgI 14:37:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on pull request #8147: Release/1.10 https://git.io/JfBgt 14:37:08 <planetmaker> because you need to keep the old for savegame reasons 14:37:45 <planetmaker> as not names are saved but indices into the generator logic 14:38:04 <FLHerne> planetmaker: Right, so only use the new generator for names beyond what the old one can generate...? 14:38:09 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd 14:38:12 <nielsm> TrueBrain: how about extenting bananas 1.5 with a calculator for townname grf's how many names it can possibly make? :D 14:38:30 <LordAro> also into the entirely wrong branch 14:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> we need 2 things: 1) to make snapshots of the current generators, for converting old savegames, and 2) implement the system that future changes don't affect savegames 14:38:34 <planetmaker> :D I like that suggestion ^^^ 14:38:48 <planetmaker> and eddi's, too 14:39:01 <nielsm> I really think we should change towns to always store the generated name as text 14:39:18 <Eddi|zuHause> 2) would be achived by converting the seeds to text on generation, not on display 14:39:22 <planetmaker> Possibly @nielsm 14:39:26 <nielsm> storing a generation seed made sense in 1994, it doesn't in 2020 14:39:32 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBgc 14:40:17 <planetmaker> You are totally right. Because then... Townname NewGRFs don't even need to be part of the savegame 14:40:32 <planetmaker> which would be a win 14:41:05 <planetmaker> And as for townname generators: it might be possible to rip-out the old generators and replace them by NewGRFs which OpenTTD ships with by default 14:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that would be a side effect 14:41:31 <planetmaker> Then one could on that approach start to ship with improved generators at the same time 14:41:46 <planetmaker> without technical debt (provided names are stored in savegames) 14:41:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure converting them to NewGRFs makes a lot of sense. we don't do that for the default vehicles etc. 14:42:16 <nielsm> town name generators might need to stay with the save for games where you can found towns 14:42:17 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, I actually think it would be a good solution, too 14:42:33 <planetmaker> hm... founding towns. forgot that 14:42:37 <Eddi|zuHause> also, this would make it difficult to deprecate some of the old generators if we make new versions 14:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i think converting them to NewGRFs is an abstraction layer too far 14:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it causes all kinds of followup issues like, why do we include some NewGRFs and not others? 14:46:14 <planetmaker> would be part of base set. We do that 14:46:27 <Eddi|zuHause> no, we don't 14:53:31 <mcbanhas> I think that whether or not content X is a NewGRF isn't an ideal standard on what should go with the core package or not. 14:54:56 <planetmaker> how do you define "core"? 14:55:05 <planetmaker> The core game works just fine as-is 15:02:13 <supermop_Home_> can the old bad generators just be changed to created towns like Madrid 2 when they run out of names? 15:03:37 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 15:04:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/JfB2c 15:04:54 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home_: no, because often there are weights applied that make sure some names appear more often. 15:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop_Home_: changing the semantics of that from "make sure this name appears on the map" to "clutter the map with only this name" is not a good idea 15:09:39 <supermop_Home_> how do town name newgrfs that concact name parts handle weights? 15:24:12 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 15:29:01 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, going back to ccapitalization, I agree with lowercasing the resorurce types, but we're def gonna need some new strings. Moreover, I found a similar inconsistency with industry names, and we're gonna need lowercase names for them too. 15:31:32 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: It looks like that's technically feasible 15:31:41 <FLHerne> But yeah, it might be a pain :-/ 15:32:13 * FLHerne wonders why there's a whole lot of separate _SINGULAR_ and _PLURAL_ strings for cargos 15:32:40 <FLHerne> There's a better mechanism for that... 15:32:40 <mcbanhas> It's because of the wagon capacities 15:32:43 <FLHerne> Legacy, I suppose 15:34:39 <mcbanhas> STR_FORMAT_INDUSTRY_NAME :{TOWN} {STRING} 15:34:48 <mcbanhas> This is problematic 15:34:55 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Normally you's just use {P y ies} or so, like in the quantities 15:35:23 <FLHerne> So I don't know why industries have a completely duplicated set of codes 15:35:41 <FLHerne> *cargos 15:35:56 <mcbanhas> yeah some cleanup seems needed 15:36:03 <FLHerne> Oh, maybe because they're included into other strings? I don't know if you can specify plurality there 15:36:22 <FLHerne> Eddi|zuHause: ^langfile puzzlement 15:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> {P ...} only works when you have a parameter that is actually a number 15:38:07 <FLHerne> Hm, ok 15:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> so not if you're talking about unspecified quantities 15:38:23 <mcbanhas> Right now I'm concerned over the fact that the industry map legend is pulling industry names from strings such as STR_INDUSTRY_NAME_COAL_MINE :Coal Mine, which are fully capitalized. 15:39:08 <mcbanhas> whereas you got legend specific strings such as STR_SMALLMAP_LEGENDA_ROADS :{TINY_FONT}{BLACK}Roads 15:39:26 <mcbanhas> There should be the same for industries 15:40:31 <FLHerne> Hm 15:40:51 <FLHerne> Duplicating all the strings for that purpose would make translation harder, though :-/ 15:40:58 <mcbanhas> For now I'm gonna change all resource names back into lowercase so we can at least submit what capitalizations can be handled. 15:41:20 <mcbanhas> Not harder, only a bit more time consuming 15:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, if you want to vary capitalization, you should look at cases 15:41:32 <Eddi|zuHause> that should not affect translations 15:42:02 <FLHerne> Yeah, might as well go ahead with the obvious improvements, and leave the can'o'worms ones for later 15:42:13 <mcbanhas> Yes 15:42:22 <mcbanhas> So for now, unfortunately, there will be inconsistencies 15:43:41 <mcbanhas> Urgh, one question, wouldn't replacing the way some strings are built break mods though? 15:45:01 <mcbanhas> Say we have an industry mod that depends on STR_FORMAT_INDUSTRY_NAME :{TOWN} {STRING} to set its new industry names 15:46:04 <mcbanhas> We alter this format so it doesn't do that and instead builds industry names like "{TOWN} Coal Mine" 15:46:19 *** k-man has quit IRC 15:46:28 <mcbanhas> This would force modders to change their string format too, right? 15:47:37 <FLHerne> There's a subset of strings that NewGRFs can use https://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/TextIDs 15:48:20 <mcbanhas> meaning? 15:48:49 *** k-man has joined #openttd 15:48:58 *** cHawk- has quit IRC 15:49:01 <FLHerne> Hm, I don't know how to tell which of them can be used in Action0 15:50:01 <FLHerne> "In action 0 only a subset of the original strings can be accessed. These are more or less the string which have no additional parameters, e.g. plain cargo/house/industry names." <- i.e. changing parameters in strings that have them shouldn't generally be a problem 15:50:19 <FLHerne> But ask someone who actually knows ;-) 15:50:38 <mcbanhas> such as? 15:50:51 <FLHerne> Eddi again, I guess 15:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that page is more about a list of mappings that OpenTTD bothered to match with the original TTD string IDs 15:57:51 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, right now the industry map is pulling its legend from directly from industry names. What I'm saying is that there should be legend-specific strings instead the same way you have for the vehicles map. 15:58:33 <mcbanhas> For instance you have STR_SMALLMAP_LEGENDA_ROAD_VEHICLES :{TINY_FONT}{BLACK}Road vehicles 15:59:05 <mcbanhas> There should also be something like STR_SMALLMAP_LEGENDA_COAL_MINE :{TINY_FONT}{BLACK}Coal mine 15:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rule that out of scope of whatever you're trying to do now 16:00:01 <mcbanhas> For now, I have no other choice 16:00:32 *** gelignite has joined #openttd 16:00:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] rasputino commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBVl 16:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> there is always a choice 16:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause> every set of rules you come up with will be either inconsistent or incomplete (paraphrasing Gödel) 16:02:14 <mcbanhas> Only if we can avoid it 16:04:38 *** Flygon has quit IRC 16:04:53 <nielsm> can we just close that spanish town names PR with "make a newgrf, it's very much okay to have multiple alternative for the same language/culture/region" 16:05:18 <Eddi|zuHause> https://github.com/OpenTTD/OpenTTD/blob/master/src/newgrf.cpp#L509 <-- btw, this is the (somewhat convoluted) list of original strings that newgrfs can actually reference 16:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> nielsm: yes-ish, but we should still work on the flexibility to deprecate the existing town name generators that are inadequate 16:08:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bazzlewazzle opened issue #8148: OpenTTD Crash https://git.io/JfBVi 16:11:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8148: OpenTTD Crash https://git.io/JfBVi 16:11:43 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh closed issue #8148: OpenTTD Crash https://git.io/JfBVi 16:12:26 <nielsm> lol the crash log says "Machine: Intel 80486" 16:12:34 <nielsm> I'd like to see you run macos on an actual 486 16:14:49 <FLHerne> nielsm: That was a thing, I think? 16:16:55 <FLHerne> nielsm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_project 16:17:06 <FLHerne> "Achieving their deadline goal and receiving their bonuses,[4] the developers eventually reached a point where they could boot an Intel 486 PC (with very specific hardware) into System 7.1" 16:17:23 <FLHerne> And you can run OpenTTD on hardware from that era, I've done it :P 16:18:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bazzlewazzle commented on issue #8148: OpenTTD Crash https://git.io/JfBVi 16:19:31 <FLHerne> I thought a couple of the licensed '90s Mac clones used Intel hardware, but apparently not 16:20:16 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8148: OpenTTD Crash https://git.io/JfBVi 16:24:21 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] bazzlewazzle commented on issue #8148: OpenTTD Crash https://git.io/JfBVi 16:25:08 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] nielsmh commented on issue #8148: OpenTTD Crash https://git.io/JfBVi 16:33:06 *** plastic has joined #openttd 16:34:44 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 16:34:58 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 16:36:51 *** plstc has quit IRC 16:48:48 *** plastic has quit IRC 16:49:24 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] embeddedt commented on issue #8066: 1.10.1 crashes on start in OS X 10.12.6 https://git.io/JvA3B 16:51:56 *** Artea has quit IRC 16:51:58 *** plstc has joined #openttd 16:54:41 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, there are unfortunately more instances were cargo names are used capitalized by default https://i.imgur.com/w2RIjEX.png 16:58:05 <andythenorth> that's a list 16:58:08 <andythenorth> capitalising is fine 16:58:17 <andythenorth> like in the 'Requires:' list in industry window 16:58:30 <mcbanhas> https://imgur.com/a/9ek9U6X 16:58:32 <andythenorth> only difference is linebreak vs. commas 16:58:36 <mcbanhas> newspapers too 16:58:58 <andythenorth> that's a faff 16:59:05 <andythenorth> no real newspaper would write Iron Ore 16:59:09 <mcbanhas> a what? 16:59:16 <andythenorth> a tedious case 16:59:49 <mcbanhas> ok but then I'll have to change all of these too 17:00:49 <andythenorth> I'd say it's diminishing returns 17:02:39 <andythenorth> I'm very not minded to see the newgrf spec extended to support lower case cargo names 17:02:52 <andythenorth> it's already pretty tedious setting all the newgrf cargo strings 17:08:15 *** Artea has joined #openttd 17:21:16 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd 17:28:22 <supermop_Home_> list items should always be capitalized 17:28:25 *** Wolf01 has joined #openttd 17:30:38 *** Samu_ has joined #openttd 17:32:01 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBKn 17:36:21 *** Samu has quit IRC 17:37:55 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n 17:41:42 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n 17:45:48 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] DorpsGek pushed 1 commits to master https://git.io/JfBKp 17:45:48 <DorpsGek_III> - Update: Translations from eints (by translators) 17:47:30 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfB6T 17:47:31 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] LordAro closed pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfBuR 17:49:26 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] glx22 commented on pull request #8105: Fix: OpenGFX download link did no longer work. https://git.io/JfB6Y 17:49:54 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 updated pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/Jf82n 17:51:35 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] sheepo99 commented on pull request #8144: Change: Improved English texts - capitalization. https://git.io/JfB6C 17:51:47 <DorpsGek_III> [OpenTTD/OpenTTD] James103 commented on pull request #8146: Feature: Added Spanish town names https://git.io/JfB6l 17:52:20 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Well, half the time they're already lowercase? 17:52:59 <FLHerne> Hm, FIRS has 17:53:16 <FLHerne> STR_CARGO_NAME_BAUXITE :Bauxite 17:53:34 <FLHerne> STR_CARGO_UNIT_BAUXITE :{WEIGHT} of bauxite 17:53:50 <FLHerne> So, yes 17:55:04 <mcbanhas> We'll think about it some other time. This will imply adding a bunch of strings which will piss off some people 17:56:24 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: Your latest push has some stray cargo capitalization changes (for two-word cargos)? 17:56:37 <mcbanhas> where? 17:56:53 <FLHerne> "Iron Ore" -> "Iron ore", etc 17:57:14 <mcbanhas> Well yeah, bc that makes it consistent with the way you want it 17:57:38 <mcbanhas> Otherwise you get this https://imgur.com/a/9ek9U6X 17:57:55 <FLHerne> Hm, I'm not sure if that works in all contexts... 17:58:17 <mcbanhas> Ok but then we cannot have some strings with it capitalized and others without it 17:58:32 <mcbanhas> this is why I first want resources names to be capitalized. 17:59:03 <mcbanhas> IIRC these instances are only used in a couple of dropdowns and newspaper titles 17:59:24 <FLHerne> Yeah, e.g. in {CARGO_LIST} that'll give "Accepts: Coal, Iron ore, Copper ore" or something 17:59:39 <FLHerne> If I understand correctly 17:59:49 <mcbanhas> Ok but that's acceptable 18:00:00 <FLHerne> No, that's worse than either 18:00:59 <mcbanhas> Well I cannot simply capitalization on some and not on others 18:01:42 <FLHerne> Capitalized random noun phrases upset me, capitalized *parts* of noun phrases is just silly :p 18:02:26 <mcbanhas> Technically they are items on a list, they do not need to be fully capitalized 18:02:49 <mcbanhas> If you can find one instance of it appearing in a middle of a sentence, that's a different story 18:03:03 *** Progman has joined #openttd 18:03:07 <FLHerne> Yes, they need to be not-capitalized 18:03:21 <FLHerne> But half-capitalized is worse than fully capitalized 18:03:33 <supermop_Home_> andythenorth haven't done any grf work since getting this computer, is there a fast way to load the ttd pallete from the color table of an indexed file into your photoshop swatches? 18:04:01 <mcbanhas> It's not half-capitalized. We're simply applying title-style capitalizion to resource names 18:04:12 <supermop_Home_> FLHerne why would list items be not capitalized? 18:04:13 <mcbanhas> Say, for example, we're applying it to building names 18:04:21 <FLHerne> You can't do that, they're noun phrases 18:04:58 <FLHerne> Capitalizing just the adjective of a noun phrase is definitely wrong 18:05:24 <FLHerne> Hm, is that explanation remotely sane? 18:05:29 <supermop_Home_> nope 18:05:45 <supermop_Home_> information design is different from written grammar 18:06:17 <FLHerne> I think it is, given they're not at the start of the sentence 18:06:59 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 18:07:54 <mcbanhas> If the items of a list do not follow tile capitalization, this is how they will look in a list separated by commas. It's effectively the same as if it was a dropdown list 18:08:45 <mcbanhas> But then again, I can always go back to capitalize resources like I originally wanted. Saves me the trouble of eventually requesting for lowercase version strings 18:10:21 <mcbanhas> Plus like andythenorth confirmed, capitalized resources would look bad on newspaper titles 18:11:14 <FLHerne> I really don't understand what you're trying to say now 18:12:10 <FLHerne> If cargo names are lowercase by default, the obvious way to write such a list would be "Accepts: coal, iron ore, copper ore" 18:12:35 <mcbanhas> You're seing that field, as a sentence, not as a list 18:12:41 <mcbanhas> It's effectively a list 18:12:46 <FLHerne> And they wouldn't be capitalized in newspapers either, unless they happened to start a sentence 18:13:06 <FLHerne> Yes, there are implementation difficulties, which is why I thought we'd agreed to put this aside for now 18:13:12 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, they always do now 18:13:25 <FLHerne> The correct capitalization of "copper ore" is "Copper Ore" 18:13:45 <FLHerne> There's no situation in which "Copper ore" is right, except the start of a sentence 18:13:51 <mcbanhas> I will quote what supermop_Home_ was saying 18:13:53 <mcbanhas> information design is different from written grammar 18:14:03 <mcbanhas> You gotta understand this 18:14:33 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, OR at a list item 18:14:39 <FLHerne> No 18:14:42 <mcbanhas> You gotta picture it as being something like this: 18:14:46 <LordAro> aren't you the one trying to force a consistent grammar on all strings, regardless of usage? 18:14:47 <mcbanhas> Accepts: 18:14:50 <mcbanhas> - Coal 18:14:52 <mcbanhas> - Iron 18:14:54 <FLHerne> The correct capitalization in a list would be "Copper Ore", like we have now 18:15:12 <FLHerne> (or not-capitalized, like I'd prefer) 18:16:10 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: That way is fine, because each line is pretty much its own sentence 18:17:19 <Speeder> openttd doesn't support diagonal rivers? 18:17:27 <Speeder> only stair-case shaped ones? 18:17:32 <Speeder> also no floodfill for rivers? 18:17:39 <LordAro> Speeder: correct 18:17:56 <LordAro> "floodfill" is done by the worldgen 18:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically the river GRF can provide more diagonal-ish shapes 18:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't place anything like a rail on the other halftile, like on shores 18:18:44 <Speeder> it would be extremely handy if I could hold control when placing rivers and it would floodfill the area 18:18:50 <Speeder> seemly like it happens on coasts 18:29:17 <mcbanhas> FLHerne, then you gotta pick whether you want messed up newspaper titles or comma lists that are not to you liking. 18:29:46 <FLHerne> mcbanhas: The newpaper titles [as they are now] are much less bad 18:30:17 <nielsm> 18:30:18 <nielsm> 18:30:19 <nielsm> 18:30:20 <nielsm> 18:30:21 <nielsm> 18:30:22 <nielsm> the real solution is to replace all instances of cargo names with icons 18:30:28 <nielsm> uh... sorry about thatr 18:30:42 <TrueBrain> now go sit in the corner :P 18:31:46 <FLHerne> nielsm: How is andy going to make 64 different tiny FIRS-cargo icons that are all easily distinguished? :-/ 18:31:55 <FLHerne> He's good, but not *that* goo 18:31:57 <FLHerne> d 18:32:20 <nielsm> also that suggestion may not have been entirely serious 18:32:25 <mcbanhas> nielsm, not a bad idea. Not sure if it would fly with opengfx tho 18:33:13 <supermop_Home_> do 3 track lines ever provide any benefit? 18:34:20 <FLHerne> supermop_Home_: Not for breakdowns 18:34:38 <nielsm> mcbanhas: as FLHerne points out the major issue with it is newgrf support 18:34:51 <FLHerne> Sometimes you need two tracks for loaded trains and one for empty, if cargo weight multiplier is turned up 18:35:12 <FLHerne> 3 tracks through stations can make sense too 18:36:02 <mcbanhas> I do think power types (steam, diesel) should at least be replaced with icons 18:36:31 <mcbanhas> In practice it works very well in the XUSSR set 18:37:08 <Eddi|zuHause> mcbanhas: i have a feeling you get side tracked a lot :p 18:37:35 <mcbanhas> Eddi|zuHause, I feel like talking of something besides grammar 18:37:38 <andythenorth> supermop_Home_ did you get a palette? 18:37:45 <andythenorth> I have a .act file 18:40:46 <andythenorth> I should do closing animations for FIRS industries https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-52667652/spectacular-demolition-at-german-nuclear-site 18:42:23 *** Progman has quit IRC 18:44:03 <FLHerne> andythenorth: You still haven't done nuclear cargos for FIRS :p 18:44:48 <andythenorth> that UK Realism set has them though 18:44:54 <andythenorth> if you really want them 18:45:45 <andythenorth> slightly related https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bachmann-2x-FNA-Nuclear-Flask-Wagon-DRS-38-346A-38-347/202991350022?hash=item2f433a3106:g:0KEAAOSwT~1evYO4 18:45:49 <andythenorth> probably not buying those 18:46:00 * andythenorth has gone ebay train mad 18:46:19 <andythenorth> dangerously I am now trying to recreate Iron Horse in OO 18:46:30 <FLHerne> Oh dear 18:48:55 <FLHerne> Hm, last time I used my waterproof Kindle case, it leaked and I had to peel the Kindle apart to drain the water out 18:49:07 <FLHerne> So...do I want to risk it again? :-/ 18:49:29 <FLHerne> I *think* it was just a misaligned O-ring... 18:50:07 <andythenorth> ouch 18:56:39 <_dp_> I'd probably prefer icons along with cargo name everywhere 18:56:41 <FLHerne> So...does anyone want to actually play OTTD? :D 18:56:53 <_dp_> but need good icons, not those piles of random pixels there are now 18:59:18 <Borg> FLHerne: I play :) right now.. honestly.. 18:59:24 <Borg> testing my BSPI v2.00 18:59:36 <FLHerne> Borg: Oh, you made that? 18:59:39 <Borg> yeah.. 18:59:44 <FLHerne> I was just looking at current BSPI the other day 18:59:56 <Borg> for now I play solo.. all seems to work.. correctly.. so I might spawn new server soon 19:00:08 <FLHerne> It's got some really interesting features. Great work! :-) 19:00:15 <Borg> thx :) 19:00:50 <Borg> yeah.. I added Fertility for organic industries as well... (a bit lerger pool).. 19:01:03 <Borg> so... even more chaotic gameplay now :D 19:01:09 <FLHerne> Does v2 have user-friendlier parameters (i.e. using Action14?) 19:01:17 <Borg> oh... no.. not yet... 19:01:25 <Borg> I should migrate it to GRFv8 then.... 19:01:28 <Borg> but im afraid ;) 19:01:42 <FLHerne> Setting individual bits in parameters is a weird experience, it's like being back in 2008 :p 19:01:56 <Borg> hehe.. yeah. but there are just 4 options.. so its not that hard... 19:02:01 <Borg> unless I want to add more parameters 19:02:48 <FLHerne> I suspect many users don't know about adding bits together to set parameter values ;-) 19:03:17 <Borg> heh ;) 19:03:18 <FLHerne> Not *everyone* playing OTTD is a programmer, just a disproportionately large subset 19:04:39 <Borg> yeah.. maybe I will migrate to v8.. then.. 19:04:48 <Borg> but this mean shitload more testing... 19:06:18 <FLHerne> You could redo it all in NML, but then you'd have different problems :p 19:06:34 <Borg> NML requires python.. yuck.. 19:06:40 <Borg> im happy w/ my pseudo NFO ;) 19:08:22 <frosch123> Borg: A14 is older than GRFv8 19:08:44 <frosch123> though I have no idea why you used GRFv7 to write something in 2019 19:08:54 <Borg> GRFv6 actually.. 19:09:06 <frosch123> GRFv6 for industries? that's rough 19:09:18 <Borg> well. dunno.. maybe because I always want to cover oldest stuff I can 19:09:57 *** cHawk- has joined #openttd 19:10:11 <frosch123> also, not using nml for industrires :p industries are probably the strongest feature of nml 19:11:13 <Borg> frosch123: correct me if I am wrong.. but isnt NML a compiler to NFO? 19:11:55 <frosch123> yes, but there are things were a compiler is more handy than in other cases 19:12:10 <FLHerne> Borg: It can compile directly to grf, but pretty much yes 19:12:57 <Borg> yeah...well.. I prefer to work closer to the core ;) 19:13:06 <frosch123> nml's unique feature is the support for real expressions. and those are mostly used by industries 19:13:28 <frosch123> Borg: sure, but GRFv7 was developed for industries :p 19:13:47 <Borg> too late now to rewrite I guess :) 19:14:13 <Borg> but.. I once, for test.. changed GRFv6 to GRFv8... and all stuff worked... 19:14:24 <frosch123> hmm, actually, i think i got that order wrong. 19:14:40 <Borg> I just had to sanitize CBs results (8bit vs 15bit)... 19:14:43 <frosch123> industries made GRFv7 necessary for vehicles 19:15:05 <Borg> and fix.. cargoids.... AFAIR.. 19:19:15 <frosch123> GRFv7 is early 2006 19:19:35 <Borg> frosch123: I remember I was confused by cargoids. GRFv6 vs GRFv8.. 19:19:35 <frosch123> ottd was 2 :p 19:19:45 <Borg> so I decide to use v6.. as it worked.. 19:22:21 <Borg> anyway.. nite 19:23:27 *** Borg has quit IRC 19:24:23 <supermop_Home_> the stations need more trim i guess 19:25:25 <supermop_Home_> maybe some CC painted doors or window frames in the brick arches 19:26:40 *** Progman has joined #openttd 19:43:02 *** iSoSyS has joined #openttd 19:50:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i should not have checked why i put people on ignore lists... 19:51:41 <supermop_Home_> i assume it's because of my inane musings Eddi|zuHause 19:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> sure :p 19:57:30 <Eddi|zuHause> no, but i checked whether i can now unignore borg because he switched to a sane NFO version. but turns out that was not the only reason why i ignored him 20:26:48 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 20:47:44 *** andythenorth has quit IRC 20:50:23 *** Smedles has quit IRC 20:51:25 *** frosch123 has quit IRC 20:51:39 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 20:58:05 *** Smedles has quit IRC 20:59:19 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:02:47 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:04:01 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:07:51 *** Wormnest has joined #openttd 21:09:29 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:10:44 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:17:20 *** Wolf01 has quit IRC 21:19:11 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:20:25 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:21:31 *** WormnestAndroid has quit IRC 21:22:18 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:22:36 *** WormnestAndroid has joined #openttd 21:22:39 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:30:06 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:31:23 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:38:19 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:39:34 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 21:40:21 <Samu_> bed time, cya 21:40:25 *** Samu_ has quit IRC 21:46:18 *** Smedles_ has joined #openttd 21:49:52 *** Smedles has quit IRC 21:59:13 *** Smedles_ has quit IRC 22:00:29 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 22:04:25 *** Smedles has quit IRC 22:05:39 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 22:05:52 *** nielsm has quit IRC 22:09:53 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC 22:21:07 *** Smedles has quit IRC 22:22:22 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 22:26:54 *** Wormnest has quit IRC 22:29:21 *** Smedles has quit IRC 22:30:36 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 22:34:03 *** Smedles has quit IRC 22:34:52 *** iSoSyS has quit IRC 22:35:19 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 22:36:16 *** Progman has quit IRC 22:42:46 *** Smedles has quit IRC 22:44:02 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 22:58:58 *** Smedles has quit IRC 23:00:14 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 23:04:40 *** Smedles has quit IRC 23:07:43 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 23:18:06 *** Smedles has quit IRC 23:19:23 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 23:29:18 *** Smedles has quit IRC 23:42:32 *** mcbanhas has quit IRC 23:43:24 *** Smedles has joined #openttd 23:59:22 *** Smedles has quit IRC