Log for #openttd on 22nd June 2006:
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04:57:06  <roboman> hello
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07:03:33  <roboman> does openttd have custom bridge heads
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07:13:33  <roboman> does openttd have custom bridgeheads
07:14:24  <peter1138> no
07:14:34  <peter1138> it could have, it's written
07:14:53  <peter1138> but we decided to wait for the new bridge stuff
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07:15:21  <roboman> didnt think so, ill go tell dalestan for telling someone to use something requireing cbhs in ottd
07:16:35  <roboman> he made the screenie with ttdp
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08:34:57  <Zavior> What year does monorail/maglev come available?
08:36:05  <peter1138> with the standard vehicles, around 2000 for monorail, and 2020 for maglev
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08:39:25  <ln-> what if one could invest some money in R&D and obtain maglevs and other stuff earlier?
08:40:18  <peter1138> then we'd have to mess with introduction dates all over the place
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08:56:16  <TheMask96> ln-: great idea to have some R&D investments... question I've got is who would do the R&D? your own company or some other?... would the technology also become available for other players?
08:58:00  <peter1138> ah, then you need to write the patent office simulation
08:58:23  <TheMask96> lol :)
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09:18:53  <ln-> TheMask96: i'd say the technology wouldn't be available for other players until after 5..10 years.
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09:35:29  <TheMask96> ln-: it is a normal period i think 5 - 10 years... it is nowadays also used for patents I think...
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09:36:34  <TheMask96> ln-: what should happen if 2 companies invested money in R&D, would they both get the 5-10 year head-start?
09:38:20  <ln-> i didn't think that far yet.
09:38:31  <Rubidium> ofcourse not, one company will be lucky, the other will have to wait 5-10 years till the patent expires
09:39:36  <Rubidium> though, maybe the other companies would be able to use the new technology in license (so they pay a little extra for having maglev, before the patents expire)
09:41:44  <TheMask96> Rubidium: also a good idea I think...
09:41:53  <Rubidium> too the company that has the patent ofcourse
09:43:01  <TheMask96> only problem in this is, that if you are the richest company (probably winning already), you have enough money to put in R&D, and you make even more money because of people buying your license...
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09:44:00  <Rubidium> isn't that happening in real life already?
09:44:46  <TheMask96> yes and no... there are also small companies that develop great things and become bigger because they have a patent :)
09:45:49  <Rubidium> but that is the chance part; if you invest a lot of money, you'll get a higher chance to get a develop a patentable technology
09:46:54  <TheMask96> Rubidium: great, I didn't thought of that, I was thinking that if someone spend $money in R&D he would get the technology ;)
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09:53:18  <Richk67_wrk> all this would mean is that the richest player buys up all the patents, making it impossible for a late-joining player to have *any* little bonus.... if this were on a server, i would avoid that server like the plague
09:53:31  <Zavior> Humm
09:54:00  <Prof_Frink> Richk67_wrk: What TTD needs isn't patents, it's startup grants
09:54:29  <Prof_Frink> If there's an uberhuge company, you get some money at the start just for providing competition
09:54:49  <TheMask96> yes... that would be fair too I think...
09:54:52  <Richk67_wrk> we already have loans and subsidies ... i dont think anyone needs a startup grant
09:55:23  <Richk67_wrk> ah... gotcha... yes, i can see a benefit to that
09:55:44  <Richk67_wrk> brb work
09:55:51  <TheMask96> :)
09:57:16  <TheMask96> I'd still like to have the possebility to merge companies in to one company... it happends a lot that I want to leave after playing for some hours, and nobody wants to work in my company... but there would be enough companies that would like to merge I think...
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10:11:22  <SirkoZ> Hello!
10:12:11  <SirkoZ> how could I express the distance from one to another town center in the code?
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10:27:55  <Trenskow>
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10:35:19  <Zavior> 2006 and still no monorail :/
10:35:33  <Prof_Frink> Zavior: what graphics set?
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10:37:17  <Zavior> The one that is in use in brianetta's nightl
10:37:18  <Zavior> y
10:37:35  <SpComb> boo
10:44:51  <peter1138> ukrs has no monorail
10:45:47  <Zavior> So i'll have to wait for maglev then
10:46:04  <Zavior> Any info about date?
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10:48:14  <TheMask96> 2020 probably
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10:49:24  <peter1138> it says on the info page
10:49:34  <roboman> try
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11:01:58  <Zavior> Thanks
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11:15:14  <Sacro> afternoon all
11:16:47  <peter1138> hello sacro
11:16:56  <Sacro> hey peter1138, how are you?
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11:21:42  <peter1138> alright
11:24:54  <peter1138> # into the white
11:25:00  <peter1138> hmm
11:25:08  <Sacro> not sure what your on about now :S
11:25:09  <peter1138> not very imaginative lyrics.. oh well
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11:29:31  <peter1138> hmm, who has stuff?
11:31:08  <Sacro> orudge does i belive
11:31:35  <Maedhros> i do, if it helps
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11:33:22  <Sacro> hmm, my mate seems to think he's getting OpenTTD for the X-Box
11:35:44  <SpComb> if his xbox runs linux
11:36:09  <Sacro> SpComb: apparently built using the XDK
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11:46:57  <Sacro> oooh /me spies GPL breaking
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11:48:56  <peter1138> hmm
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11:49:03  <peter1138> harddrive-light-stuck-on time
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12:22:57  <Xaroth> Richk67_wrk: got a few bugs with miniIN, dunno if they are trunk-related or miniIN :o
12:23:19  <Xaroth> 1) I noticed a company went bankrupt, news said <company> got bought by <company> (same company)
12:23:46  <Xaroth> 2) New Railway Locomotive now availible - Railway locomotive .. while when you click to show full news you see the actual train name.
12:26:20  * ln- is sitting in a bus and downloading OpenTTD.
12:28:03  <Brianetta> ln-: GSM? GPRS?
12:31:58  <Prof_Frink> Warbussing?
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12:38:40  <Richk67_wrk> xaroth: look like trunk bugs to me... nothing special about 2) at all... 1) could be subsidiaries patch, but unlikely
12:38:45  <ln-> gprs
12:47:43  <Xaroth> k
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13:06:01  <Xaroth> Richk67_wrk: Somehow 1 construction with presignals does work with a trunk-build, yet on miniIN it doesn't seem to work at all.. I'll look into it when i'm back home to provide screenies etc etc
13:07:46  <Xaroth> signals (or presignals for that matter, tried both) at entrance, presignals/signals just before the line connects so the trains can choose platform.. yet if both platforms are full all 3 entry lines' signals show green
13:07:55  * Sacro has just got a copy of 0.3.4 for the X-Box
13:08:17  <Zavior> Mini-in has pbs I think
13:08:20  <Zavior> Could that be it?
13:08:34  <Xaroth> might be
13:08:38  * Xaroth shrugs
13:08:54  <Xaroth> miniIN can also have a severe case of PMS :P
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13:13:09  <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't that be red then? :p
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14:03:36  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: no, that'd be the fun-week-of-the-month
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14:15:09  <CIA-14> belugas * r5334 /branch/newgrf_lab/ (currency.c currency.h newgrf.c):
14:15:09  <CIA-14> [newgrf_lab] Feature : Currency intro date is now available to be set, for each currency.
14:15:09  <CIA-14> This corrects commit r5332, who was an error of understanding the mechanism.
14:15:09  <CIA-14> It still needs testing
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14:15:36  <peter1138> who?
14:15:38  <peter1138> which :P
14:16:08  <Belugas> what?
14:17:03  <Belugas> I NEEEEED a grf who specifies Euro Introduction and replacement!!!!  PLEEEEEASE
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14:39:08  <Hackykid> hmmm, newgrf_lab?
14:39:40  <Hackykid> Belugas: make one? :-p
14:40:24  <Belugas> kind of a stupid way to test it...  I did that for newhouses back then, and it was not properly written :(
14:40:46  <Belugas> therefor, i'd prefer something that is proven to work :)
14:40:54  <Hackykid> wll, load the same grf in ttdp of course
14:41:00  <Hackykid> and prove it works yourself :-p
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14:41:53  <Belugas> means i have to install it :S
14:42:16  <Belugas> not that I hate ttdpatch, i just never touched it
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14:42:21  <Hackykid> hehe
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14:42:35  <Hackykid> well, i did i for just things like this
14:43:40  <Belugas> i might end up doing it, if i have to.  But...
14:44:09  <Hackykid> you might try asking for a grf in #tycoon, they know more about grf;s there i think
14:44:47  <Belugas> i did, a few minutes ago
14:44:49  <Belugas> and...
14:44:51  <Belugas> i wait...
14:44:51  <Hackykid> ah
14:45:38  <Belugas> they all watch the games, maybe!
14:45:48  <Belugas> or even better : there is no grf that does it!!!!
14:45:59  <Belugas> That, I doubt, by the way
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15:01:55  <init> I noticed that the bridge branch had been merged into the trunk, but I could not make it work. Was the code removed again?
15:02:47  <Hackykid> yeah
15:03:04  <init> Any special reason?
15:03:51  <Hackykid> no idea
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15:04:56  <Belugas> the creator of the branch (Tron) removed it.  The merge was premature, according to him.
15:05:09  <Richk67_wrk> the bridge branch was not ready - it had problems that the main author didnt want in trunk... his choice
15:06:43  <Trenskow> who is the main author ?
15:06:52  <Richk67_wrk> Tron
15:06:56  <Brianetta> Weird decision, frankly.  The trunk isn't meant to be a stable release; it's the development version.
15:07:02  <init> Okay. I'll just hope it'll be ready soon, it looked cool. Building bridges over diagonal track has been a personal wish for quite long. :)
15:07:39  <Brianetta> Devs seem to think that the nightly build should be release-stable, that the trunk should only have completed features merged into it.
15:07:51  <Hackykid> Brianetta: well, dunno, theres something to be said for developing such big features in a seperate branch
15:07:52  <Brianetta> I think they've lost track of what a development version is.
15:08:02  <Hackykid> and merging when they are *finished*
15:08:02  <Brianetta> Hackykid: It's hardly a big feature
15:08:06  <Richk67_wrk> brianetta - its the same with TGP ... it looks good when it works, but until KUDr's improvements it definitely was not ready for trunk IMO... even tho many people asked for it to go in
15:08:21  <init> Brianetta: I'd say that the SVN version has been remarkably stable, I can usually just pick the latest with few, if any, problems
15:08:39  <Brianetta> Things should be developed in trunk, and if the public doesn't want to risk an unstable build, they should run a release.
15:08:59  <Brianetta> init: That's just it.  The SVN is kept stable, which seems to be odd.
15:09:04  <Hackykid> heh, that would suck
15:09:19  <Brianetta> Hackykid: It's how the rest of the FOSS world works.
15:09:36  <Hackykid> so? :-p
15:09:37  <Brianetta> You can check out a CVS version of any big app, but it's not even guaranteed to compile.
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15:10:11  <Richk67_wrk> what i find weirder is that when a release is done, it isnt trunk... its a separate entity with selected patches backported from trunk
15:10:45  <Brianetta> Richk67_wrk: That's the same as the Linux kernel, though
15:10:55  <Brianetta> Fixes get backported
15:11:07  <Brianetta> New features wait for a future release with a new version number
15:11:23  <Brianetta> 0.4.x is a past release
15:11:32  <Brianetta> Trunk will never be 0.4, it's 0.5pre
15:12:02  <Hackykid> well, before a release was just a tag of the current /trunk
15:12:13  <Brianetta> yes, which was good
15:12:20  <Brianetta> but not backport friendly
15:13:05  <Hackykid> hmm, yeah
15:13:38  <Hackykid> the thing is, even a new release exists of backports now, while that isnt really needed?
15:13:51  <Hackykid> hmm, dunno though
15:14:10  <Brianetta> It's good that the stable branch (0.4) is being maintained
15:14:19  <Hackykid> yeah
15:14:22  <blathijs> Brianetta: the danger of developing features in trunk is that they are not finished by the time the next release is due
15:14:33  <Brianetta> blathijs: Timetables? hah
15:14:55  <blathijs> Brianetta: okay, by the time that we want to release a new feature
15:14:59  <Brianetta> Most dev teams call a feature freeze when a release is due
15:15:04  <blathijs> like PBS for example
15:15:20  <Brianetta> PBS was a massive example of backpedalling
15:15:21  <Brianetta> It's rare
15:15:25  <Brianetta> even for OpenTTD
15:15:40  <Hackykid> backpedalling?
15:15:49  <Richk67_wrk> lol - feature freeze... (definition of trunk ;) )
15:16:12  <blathijs> Brianetta: True, but by not developing big features in trunk, you prevent them
15:16:52  <blathijs> Brianetta: also, you want to keep the trunk stable, at least make sure it always compiles
15:17:06  <Brianetta> blathijs: It's still extremely non-standard, and also means you can't test interoperability of features until they're complete.  If they don't interoperate, you're back to square one
15:17:08  <blathijs> since committing something that breaks compilation hinders other developers
15:17:16  <Brianetta> something needs rewriting, and the test cycle MUST start again
15:17:38  <blathijs> Brianetta: you can, by keeping the branch up to date?
15:17:54  <Brianetta> blathijs: Which branch?
15:18:03  <Hackykid> he means if two seperate features each in their own branch
15:18:06  <Brianetta> Say TGP conflicts at some fundamental level with bridges
15:18:08  <blathijs> ah, like that
15:18:10  <blathijs> true
15:18:19  <Brianetta> Unlikely, I know
15:19:17  <blathijs> still, a valid point :-)
15:20:06  * Richk67_wrk points to MiniIN ... this is where it can serve as a testbed for the interoperability... IMO many of the patches in it are no-brainers for trunk inclusion
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15:21:11  <Brianetta> Richk67_wrk: Getting any patch included in the trunk is like getting a personal reply to fan mail sent to a band like U2
15:21:22  <Brianetta> Unlikely in the extreme, but has happened on occasion
15:21:30  <Hackykid> hehe
15:21:44  <Richk67_wrk> lol - dont i know it
15:21:46  <Hackykid> you just need to be lucky :-p
15:22:30  <Brianetta> Does the Minty have any place in the development process, or did they just provide a branch as a favour?
15:22:31  <Hackykid> the first patch i ever made got included (rewritten a bit, but heh) after only 2 weeks or so
15:22:36  <Hackykid> that was lucky :-)
15:22:39  <Richk67_wrk> favour
15:23:15  <Richk67_wrk> but i think they like the idea of someone else (ie. me) doing all the pre-flight integration checks, like no trailing spaces etc
15:23:33  <Brianetta> As long as they listen to your recommendations
15:23:36  <Richk67_wrk> so if they want to pinch a patch into trunk, it is easier from MiniIN
15:23:41  <Richk67_wrk> LOL
15:24:16  <Richk67_wrk> i may (may) be commiting New Airports to trunk real soon... its in last stages
15:24:19  <init> Brianetta: I agree on the difficulty of getting a patch included in the trunk. I had a bugfix that i bugged the devs about several times, and they promised to look at it every time, but then nothing happened. I still have to patch openttd manually every time I get a new rev, since the bug makes it unplayable.
15:24:36  <Brianetta> Which bug?
15:24:41  <Brianetta> It's not one that affects me
15:24:48  <Hackykid> hmm, bugfixes usually get included a lot faster...
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15:25:12  <Richk67_wrk> its the "when init starts a game, detect the name "init" and award £1,000,000 bonus" ;)
15:25:31  <init> Brianetta: It's a bug in the mouse input handling system, where events are lost of mouse down and up are handled in the same while loop
15:25:54  <Hackykid> eh? that still isnt fixed?
15:26:00  <init> Nopw
15:26:02  <init> Nope
15:26:11  <Hackykid> heh
15:26:31  <Brianetta> Is that why clicks sometimes don't work?
15:26:36  <Brianetta> I always wondered
15:27:19  <init> Brianetta: It is
15:27:36  <SpComb> let's bug the devs collaboratively now!
15:28:34  <init> Brianetta: The input processing loop sets a flag when a mouse button down is received, and clears it when an up event is received. If both events are in the queue when it is processed, the game never notices the event, and it appears "lost".
15:28:53  <init> SpComb: Are you also affected?
15:29:18  <SpComb> no, I don't play OpenTTD
15:29:27  <SpComb> but community action is always effective!
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15:29:56  <init> I might need to update the patch...didn't actually play openttd long enough to bother since about r47xx...
15:31:24  <init> I just recently built it when I saw the messages and screenshots about the new bridge over diagonal tracks feature, and at the same time I noticed to my disdain that my bugfix still wasn't implemented...
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15:33:46  <Belugas> I want a grf with currencies feature : Action 00, feature 08, props 0A.. 0F.  Any suggestions?
15:37:36  <init> It seems the patch was not updated since r4287, which was in the beginning of April this year. It does not apply cleanly, so I have to fix it, which I'll do during the weekend. If it haven't been included for more than one year, I'm sure it can wait a few days...:)
15:38:34  <Hackykid> well, you can not at least get it included in MiniIN
15:38:52  <Hackykid> that takes a lot less time :-)
15:38:57  <Hackykid> s/not/now
15:38:59  <Hackykid> oops
15:41:45  <paulsen> I got a dedicated server installed now
15:41:53  <paulsen> next question is how I can load in a scenario of choice
15:42:12  <paulsen> I'd like a scenario like the openttdcoop is.. trains-only
15:43:22  <Brianetta> scenarios are loaded as if they were saved games with -g
15:43:45  <Brianetta> trains only can also be specified by settings in your server's openttd.cfg
15:44:34  <peter1138> Belugas: grfcrawler, or #tycoon
15:44:41  <peter1138> oh, you tried ther ;p
15:45:11  <Brianetta> grfcrawler still needs a license field
15:45:40  <Belugas> grfcrawler, should try it...
15:47:18  <init> Hackykid: What is MiniIN?
15:47:54  <Noldo> init: svn log might tell
15:48:24  <Hackykid> a branch with lots of new stuff
15:49:21  <Hackykid> experimental new features and other things
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15:50:51  <init> Hackykid: Ah
15:52:58  <Richk67_wrk> new terrains, new airports, subsidiaries, loads of nice goodies ;)
15:55:08  <init> I'm getting the MiniIN branch now, I'll try it during the weekend.
15:56:17  <Richk67_wrk> if you want an executable from this mornings build (twice a week), then try
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16:15:55  <init> I don't need an executable, I know how to build openttd. Besides, if I should adapt my bugfix for MiniIN, I need the source...
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16:16:50  <Richk67_wrk> i only offered... ah well... so much for being helpful
16:18:05  <Eddi|zuHause> no good deed stays unpunished ;)
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16:45:03  <Wolf01> we
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16:57:30  <anboni> Richk67_wrk, ping?
16:58:08  <Richk67_wrk> pong
16:58:30  <SpComb> round-trip time: 38 seconds
16:58:48  <anboni> did you catch my updated patch for loading indicators? no new features, but code is decent now :)
16:59:13  <Richk67_wrk> i saw some posts flying around... ill update tonight probably
16:59:21  <anboni> okies :)
17:00:15  <anboni> the next step is to see what needs to be done to get it considered for inclusion in trunk :)
17:00:30  <Prof_Frink> anboni: sacrifice a cow to the devs
17:00:31  <Richk67_wrk> bribe the local authority ;)
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17:01:20  <anboni> Richk67_wrk, do i want to know what the possible penalties are for said bribe?:)
17:01:49  <Richk67_wrk> dunno, but it seems to take forever otherwise ;
17:01:51  <Richk67_wrk> ;)
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17:03:25  <Zavior> Mmmm
17:03:26  <Zavior> Ice tea.
17:07:06  <Richk67_wrk> home time... cya
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17:11:47  <anboni> Someone informed GWB that 4 Brazilian soldiers had been killed in Iraq.  GW blanched, and started to shake.  Everyone was dismayed, and Bush turned to Rummy and said, "Exacly how many IS a brazilian?"
17:12:37  <Zavior> ;D
17:13:09  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe ;)
17:15:24  <SpComb> ye olde
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17:17:20  <Wolf01> "Your test-if-4-bits-are-equals doesn't work. Retry|Ignore|Fail?" R
17:22:41  * Sacro has chocolate coated coffee beans
17:22:48  <Wolf01> :Q_
17:23:33  <hylje> :o
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17:24:42  <_bitwise> what was the default mapsize for the original ttd? 256x256?
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17:25:13  <peter1138> yes
17:25:51  <hylje> is there any improvements to road stuff in any newgrf or so
17:26:09  <hylje> i want to be able to make a transport empire with just trucks
17:26:25  <Zavior> Not an effective one
17:27:19  <hylje> :x
17:27:43  <hylje> is there a limit on vehicles
17:27:55  <hylje> i remember crashing ottd once with too many trucks on one route
17:28:23  <anboni> peter1138, do you think it would be possible to make railway track change color (or draw a simple line on it), to display the path a train intends to take?
17:28:47  <hylje> anboni: or show the intended path in advance when a train is selected
17:29:15  <peter1138> no
17:29:34  <anboni> bummer
17:30:14  <peter1138> well. you could cache the pathfinder result with the vehicle
17:30:20  <peter1138> and draw that
17:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> you could try changing the palette of the track or ground sprites
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17:30:54  <peter1138> but it would probably change at the next junction
17:31:01  <Eddi|zuHause> well... if celestar starts to work on these new signals, parts of the path should be stored
17:31:28  <anboni> peter1138, yeah, it would.. but the idea is to have the game display the intended path, as a debugging option for pathfinding, TBS/PBS, etc
17:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause> that path would not change anymore, and pathfinding would be done from the end of this fixed path
17:32:23  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, storing the path would be at the same place where currently the engine and wagon positions are stored
17:32:57  <Eddi|zuHause> so you store current position (engine), past position (wagons) and future position (fixed path) of the train
17:36:20  <anboni> peter1138, what would you think are the possibilities for drawing that path?
17:36:50  <Hackykid> you could do it like pbs did
17:36:59  <Hackykid> ie, darken the rails
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17:37:16  <anboni> ooh, you mean there's working code already?:)
17:37:42  <Hackykid> well, changing the way rails are draws is easy
17:37:48  <Hackykid> knowing when to do that is not, heh
17:38:40  <anboni> obviously:) but if the mechanism is in place, it might make it easier to at least debug the code that determines when to change colors :)
17:41:19  <Wolf01> what does it mean "right shift count >= width of type"?
17:41:45  <Eddi|zuHause> that you right shift more bits than the type has
17:41:53  <Wolf01> if ((GB(_display_opt,DO_TRANS_TREES,DO_TRANS_BUILDINGS)==0) || (GB(_display_opt,DO_TRANS_TREES,DO_TRANS_BUILDINGS)==15) ) {
17:41:54  <Wolf01> i'm doing this
17:42:00  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. x >> 10 with a 8 bit type
17:42:08  <Wolf01> uhm
17:42:22  <Hackykid> what are ,DO_TRANS_TREES,DO_TRANS_BUILDINGS ?
17:42:39  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it must be ",DO_TRANS_BUILDINGS-DO_TRANS_TREES)"
17:43:11  <Wolf01> do_trans_trees is 1<<7, do_trans_buildings is 1<<10
17:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> GB(var,7,4)
17:43:27  <Hackykid> yes
17:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> not GB(var,7,10)
17:43:39  <Wolf01> ah, ok
17:43:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it is not from, to
17:43:45  <Hackykid> amd mot GB(var,1<<7,1<<10) either
17:43:46  <Eddi|zuHause> but from, how many
17:43:51  <Hackykid> *not
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17:45:54  <_bitwise> all the screen shots are "travel on the left side of the road" ish :P
17:46:20  <Eddi|zuHause> all what screenshots?
17:46:53  <Wolf01> ok, now works, thank you
17:47:46  <_bitwise> screen shots section
17:48:26  <_bitwise> maybe they're mostly from the same user
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17:52:24  <Eddi|zuHause> hmzz... how do i make a backup copy of my HD without windows complaining about files in use every 2 seconds?
17:54:25  <Wolf01> norton ghost
17:55:43  *** tokai|3 [] has quit [Connection timed out]
17:56:35  <Wolf01> you place it on a floppy disk, boot your computer with the win98 disk, run the ghost.exe and then disk-to-image your hard drive, you must put the image into a second disk because you can't write on the same disk you are reading
17:57:05  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i'd try something easier first
17:57:24  <Eddi|zuHause> (and free)
17:57:30  <Wolf01> is easy as drinking water
17:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Norton Ghost 10.0, für Windows, deutsch
17:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Einzelplatzversion
17:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> Versandfertig in der Regel am nächsten Werktag  56.95 EUR
17:58:14  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a little expensive for my taste
17:58:18  <Hackykid> you could try xcopy from command prompt or so
17:58:23  <Wolf01> no, not the complete version, only the executable
17:58:24  <Hackykid> i think that just continues on error
17:58:53  <Wolf01> you may try to download hiren's boot cd
17:58:58  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i did not use xcopy in years
17:59:08  <Hackykid> its easy! :-)
17:59:09  <Wolf01> which has many utilities
17:59:53  <Wolf01>
17:59:53  <Hackykid> ah,   /C           Continues copying even if errors occur.
18:00:32  <Hackykid> xcopy source dest /c /s /e
18:00:58  <Hackykid> add /h if you want hidden and system files too
18:01:11  * Ihmemies wants tunnels for ships
18:01:57  * Eddi|zuHause imagines the size of a tunnel holding a big sea tanker
18:02:36  * Wolf01 wants to draw catchement areas for placed stations when placing a station (like locomotion)
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18:03:05  <Hackykid> hmm, did you search the forums for that?
18:03:18  <Hackykid> i seems to remember someone else trying the same thing, dunno how far he got though
18:03:49  <Hackykid> (and was a long time ago, too)
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18:04:54  <Wolf01> maybe was i?
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18:06:33  <Ihmemies> ok
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18:10:34  <Hackykid> Wolf01:
18:10:46  <Hackykid> not exactly what you was looking for, but similar
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18:10:48  <_bitwise> Anyone know what locomotion is like?
18:13:02  <Wolf01> uhm, some months later
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18:14:29  <Wolf01> i think that the two things can be done at the same manner
18:15:24  <Wolf01> or better: my idea use automatically the first idea when placing a new station
18:15:35  <Hackykid> yeah
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18:28:48  <_bitwise> can openttd handle > 8bpp graphics?
18:29:04  <Eddi|zuHause> _bitwise: try the 32bpp branch
18:29:35  <_bitwise> Eddi|zuHause: hmm.. is the art worth it?
18:29:37  <_bitwise> :)
18:30:06  <Eddi|zuHause> err... i don't understand the question
18:30:51  <_bitwise> sorry, let me be more specific
18:31:04  <_bitwise> can openttd handle sprites with more than 256 colors?
18:31:17  <_bitwise> and if so, is there new artwork that takes advantage of it?
18:31:28  * _bitwise is looking at the grfx section of the wiki.
18:34:27  <_bitwise> hmm, looks like its still _very_ much a work in progress.
18:36:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i assume, as soon as the new graphics are done, it will be called openTTD 1.0
18:37:30  <peter1138> at the current rate, that will be a very long time away
18:37:45  <Eddi|zuHause> right :)
18:42:54  <peter1138> that's so nice
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18:59:45  <_bitwise> looks like most of the good looking art is being done by
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19:52:17  <paulsen> Can anyone recommend a good, challenging scenario to use on a dedicated server?
19:52:23  <paulsen> (it has to be a large one)
19:53:12  <glx> mountains ?
19:54:24  <paulsen> i like flat land alot more really
19:54:42  <glx> flat is not challenging :)
19:54:42  <peter1138> flat isn't usually challenging :)
19:55:19  <paulsen> well
19:55:35  <paulsen> I'm thinking like.. scenario who doesnt have a overflood of cities and industry
19:55:37  <[Shaman]> try high amounts of water and high amounts of hills
19:55:39  <paulsen> no planes allowed etc
19:55:43  <[Shaman]> makes it a real challenge.
19:55:50  <[Shaman]> low cities, low industries
19:55:56  <[Shaman]> 10x10 map
19:56:05  <hylje> 1x1 ftw
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20:41:20  <Belugas> welcome back Tron
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20:53:54  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:03:27  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5335 /trunk/newgrf_engine.c: - Newgrf: correct spelling of hangar
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21:15:35  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5336 /trunk/ (5 files): - NewGRF: draw custom helicopter rotor sprites in vehicle info window, ensuring the correct direction is used (inspiration from mart3p)
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21:23:46  <Brianetta> No new nightly?
21:23:56  <Brianetta> All's quite in svnland
21:25:53  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5337 /trunk/ (newgrf_engine.c newgrf_spritegroup.h): - NewGRF: pass the engine type to the engine resolver, to allow support for variable 7F for unbuilt vehicles (mart3p)
21:31:11  <CIA-3> peter1138 * r5338 /trunk/newgrf_engine.c: - NewGRF: add support for vehicle variable 48, vehicle type info (more mart3p)
21:31:40  <peter1138> that should get mart3p busy
21:38:30  <[Shaman]> lol
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21:45:14  <Ihmemies> "take the mick" == ??
21:45:20  <Ihmemies> i'm not that good with these english idioms
21:47:23  <Tefad> take the mike
21:47:30  <Tefad> you have the floor
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21:47:46  <Tefad> be the center of attention for a while
21:47:51  <Tefad> i think anyway
21:48:02  <bulio> are there any games similar to openttd and TTD that I could try?
21:48:13  <anboni> locomotion
21:48:15  <anboni> transport giant
21:48:19  <bulio> or something to spice up the openttd gameplay
21:48:25  <anboni> those are two that come to mind
21:48:32  <bulio> I want a little bit of newer stuff
21:48:41  <bulio> maybe different cars and stuff
21:48:55  <Hackykid> try miniin branch if you havent yet
21:49:04  <Hackykid> and some grf files for new gfx
21:49:13  <bulio> ok
21:49:14  <anboni> in that case, you should browse the forums a bit more.. there's some new stuff to be had there (new graphics, most notably)
21:49:32  <Ihmemies> ok
21:49:34  <bulio> damn
21:50:09  <bulio> can't play transport giant
21:50:14  <bulio> I only have a 4mb agp card
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21:51:14  <anboni> in my opinion, you're not missing out on much with that :) while it looks a lot better (like.. 10 years better), the gameplay of OTTD hasnt been matched in any other game i've seen so far
21:52:20  <bulio> yeah, true
21:52:29  <bulio> I need to find a very flat map
21:52:42  <bulio> to play around making latrge train stations
21:52:57  <anboni> get the MiniIN branch Hackykid mentioned... it includes a new map generator which is a lot more configurable than the original
21:52:57  <bulio> I haven't built much more than 2 line tracks with 2 locomotions
21:53:19  <bulio> where can I get it?
21:53:22  <anboni> hmm
21:53:26  <Ihmemies> are boobs related?
21:53:43  <Brianetta> That sandbox game is too slow for me
21:53:45  <bulio> I'll be back soon
21:53:49  <bulio> thanks for everything
21:53:56  <Brianetta> Half the letters I type are ignores
21:53:56  <Ihmemies> Brianetta, you have too slow pc!
21:54:06  <Brianetta> Ihmemies: It's a faster PC than the server
21:54:15  <Ihmemies> or.. connection.. ! or maybe hte server yeats all the power from your connection :D
21:54:19  <Ihmemies> and causes that lag
21:54:33  <Brianetta> How would the server eat the power?
21:54:38  <Brianetta> It's 500 miles away
21:54:55  <Hackykid>
21:55:06  <Ihmemies> you never know
21:55:11  <anboni> bulio, i dont have the download location for MiniIN at hand, but if you search the forum (or wait for Hackykid to respond) you should find it :)
21:55:22  <Hackykid> hehe, lol :-p
21:55:29  <baske> small question: is CopyFileA() a linux compatible way to copy a file?
21:55:43  <Hackykid> it was still in my irc backlog :-)
21:55:50  <anboni> that helps :)
21:57:06  <Ihmemies> would be nice if that savegame made it's way to the wiki
21:57:17  <Ihmemies> with a screen from mlh01a-c
21:57:21  <Ihmemies> off
21:57:51  <XeryusTC> <Brianetta> That sandbox game is too slow for me <- you're not the only one with that problem
21:58:08  <Ihmemies> amd x2 power!
21:58:26  <XeryusTC> but it is caused by server lag, i played the game in sp and it worked fine
21:58:54  <Ihmemies> why it then priorizes always me to #1? :P
21:59:21  <Brianetta> yes, server lag
21:59:35  <Brianetta> the game's priority has been lowered
21:59:47  <Brianetta> because I can't really afford to burn CPU on it
21:59:54  <Ihmemies> :(
22:00:09  <XeryusTC> an obvious thing to do with such an amount of trains ;)
22:00:15  <Ihmemies> what else you run on that server then, more important stuff I mean :)
22:00:39  <Brianetta> Ihmemies: It has several web sites on it
22:00:47  <Ihmemies> pfft
22:00:55  <Ihmemies> some cs clan sites, of course
22:00:55  <Brianetta> it also handles several people's email
22:01:02  <Brianetta> cs clan sites?
22:01:04  <Brianetta> None of them
22:01:17  <Brianetta> It has my nightclub
22:01:23  <Brianetta> a popular X2 site
22:01:37  <Brianetta> a couple of small businesses run by friends
22:01:51  <Ihmemies> ok ok you don't have to prove it :)
22:02:19  <Brianetta> and....
22:02:23  <Brianetta> my nightly
22:02:24  <Brianetta> (:
22:03:10  <XeryusTC> Brianetta: is the MS running on your other server then?
22:03:23  <Brianetta> No
22:03:27  <Brianetta> It's on the same machine
22:03:38  <Brianetta> but it's nowhere near as painful as the sandbox
22:03:44  <Brianetta> even when both are busy
22:04:07  <XeryusTC> some people expected too much of the server when they wanted 1000+ trains :P
22:04:25  <Brianetta> sandbox has about 800 trains too many for the network
22:04:41  <Brianetta> The network needs to be able to handle so many trains, and frankly it's not
22:04:42  <glx> [23:55:41] <baske> small question: is CopyFileA() a linux compatible way to copy a file? <-- that's windows only I think
22:04:43  <XeryusTC> i know, but nobody wants to do train management
22:04:49  <Ihmemies> we demand a dedicated server for sandbox!
22:04:52  <XeryusTC> and if you do it someone else will just buy some new trains
22:04:54  <Ihmemies> so we could ahve 5000 trains
22:05:07  <XeryusTC> Ihmemies: you're going to pay for one?
22:05:19  <Brianetta> Ihmemies: There are plenty of inexpensive providers
22:05:23  <baske> glx: thankx. any general alternatives available?
22:05:49  <XeryusTC> i *could* host a server when TRoS gets popular and we get a dedicated server
22:06:54  <Ihmemies> XeryusTC, pay? I thought servers jsut come from *somewhere*
22:07:23  <XeryusTC> Ihmemies: they do, but that would involve hacking and that's illegal
22:07:43  <Ihmemies> duhh
22:07:51  <Ihmemies> how boring :(
22:07:58  * Brianetta listens to an MP3 RSS feed with his Sony PSP
22:08:18  <paulsen> hm
22:08:20  <Ihmemies> np: Eternal Tears Of Sorrow - Angelheart, Ravenheart (Act 1), np time!
22:08:26  <paulsen> if you buy shares in a opponents company
22:08:35  <paulsen> do you get any kind of income from the competitor?
22:08:37  <Ihmemies> you can sell them later on for much $$$? :/
22:08:45  <XeryusTC> no
22:08:47  <Brianetta> paulsen: No, it's basically a bit crap
22:08:58  <paulsen> roger
22:09:29  <paulsen> does openttd per default permit buying 100% shares of a competitor (in multiplayer)?
22:09:31  <Ihmemies> if it allowed others to leech money from me, that'd mean my company would be family run business :)
22:10:08  <XeryusTC> paulsen: no
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22:10:34  <[Shaman]> 100% == merger
22:10:48  *** Trenskow [n=outlet@] has quit ["Read error: Connection reset by sortepeer"]
22:10:50  <[Shaman]> so that'd become awkward in MP
22:11:18  <paulsen> so it stops at 75%, or do the companies merge (and both players gain control of the new company)?
22:11:25  <Brianetta> It stops
22:11:28  <[Shaman]> stops
22:11:29  <paulsen> ok
22:11:57  <paulsen> bah. the only sad part about TTD is the easyness of making money with planes
22:12:01  <Brianetta> It was originally coded by Chris Sawyer as a feature to bullet-point on the back of the box
22:12:33  <[Shaman]> heh
22:12:40  <paulsen> I have 1.5billion dollars
22:12:48  <paulsen> and this game has been running for ~20hours
22:13:01  <paulsen> my competitor (a multiplayer friend) has 4 times as much
22:13:02  <paulsen> :<
22:13:03  <[Shaman]> On big maps I usually end up around 2005 making 100m/year
22:13:11  <[Shaman]> <3 MiniIN
22:13:14  <[Shaman]> big airport ftw :P
22:13:18  <paulsen> well
22:13:23  <paulsen> the int. airport is really sweet
22:13:29  <paulsen> but its too easy to make money :(
22:13:33  <[Shaman]> heh
22:13:51  <paulsen> I have trains rolling into a competitors town, carrying 1000 passengers per ride
22:13:53  <[Shaman]> it is, but wait 10 years with an airfield near 2 towns
22:14:01  <[Shaman]> they will crawl around it and you'll be stuck with overflow
22:14:07  <[Shaman]> meaning you'll have to buy more planes to fix it
22:14:15  <[Shaman]> giving more money, making the towns grow even MORE
22:14:17  <paulsen> yet the people in the town go in line at the competitors airport (where he has a 30% reputation)
22:14:20  <[Shaman]> it's an endless loop :P
22:14:24  <paulsen> while my trainstation has 97% reputation
22:14:35  <[Shaman]> Buy exclusive transport rights?
22:14:48  <paulsen> costs so insanely much :(
22:14:53  <[Shaman]> costs ya a mil or two, but will stop them from going to yer opponent at all
22:15:11  <[Shaman]> I made an opponent go bankrupt due to that once :P
22:15:12  <paulsen> its mill
22:15:17  <paulsen> in that particular town
22:15:20  <[Shaman]> you have 1.5b!
22:15:26  <[Shaman]> that's small change man :p
22:15:57  <paulsen> I still dont understand why the passengers go to that airport
22:16:00  <[Shaman]> My opponent was focussing on 6 towns with an immense train network, at least 40 trains running between em non-stop
22:16:04  <paulsen> when it has poor rating
22:16:09  <paulsen> while my trainstation has excellent rating
22:16:09  <[Shaman]> so i made an airfield at every town, bought exclusive rights
22:16:35  <paulsen> It seems like passengers like planes more
22:16:38  <paulsen> :|
22:16:41  <[Shaman]> made a fuckton of planes, at the end of the year he had to max out his loan because he kept on buying shit :P
22:17:01  <[Shaman]> airfields have better cover area dude, they attract more people from the surroundings
22:17:22  <paulsen> ah, yes.. forgot about that
22:17:35  <paulsen> bigger trainstations should have bigger coverage area!@
22:17:35  <paulsen> :P
22:17:39  <paulsen> <- train geek
22:17:44  <paulsen> I have like.. 20 planes
22:17:47  <paulsen> he has 80
22:17:59  <[Shaman]> with 80 planes you can easily make.. 30-40m/year
22:18:04  <paulsen> the ones configured for mail transport brings in m every year
22:18:23  <bulio> MiniIN, I have to ocmpile from source?
22:18:26  <paulsen> last year he made 8m
22:18:29  <paulsen> just from planes
22:18:40  <Hackykid> bulio: check out
22:18:45  * [Shaman] thwacks Hackykid
22:18:49  <[Shaman]> 1 second faster! :(
22:19:00  <Hackykid> hehe
22:19:14  <Hackykid> i pressed <up> twice, and there was the link!
22:19:27  <[Shaman]> :/
22:19:37  <[Shaman]> i typed it, was at MiniI .. and you said it :/
22:29:07  <Ihmemies>
22:29:16  <Ihmemies> that transparency patch thread doesn't work :(
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22:30:36  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... if you don't see me for the next couple of weeks, i screwed up with installing ;)
22:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> wish me luck
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22:38:37  <paulsen> does a train use more running-cost money when moving all the time?
22:38:49  <paulsen> (full load versus regular runs)
22:40:48  <[Shaman]> set cost
22:40:57  <[Shaman]> even if it's stopped the whole year
22:40:59  <[Shaman]> it'll cost
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22:44:30  <paulsen> so, if you have a single-track rail with only one train going on it, its no real point to set full load?
22:51:07  <Hackykid> you might get higher ratings
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22:51:37  <Hackykid> as the 'time since train was last here' effect ratings
22:51:45  <Sacro> evening ladies
22:51:50  <Hackykid> and that will then be 0 for a substantion amount of time
22:51:57  <Hackykid> so the avarage might be lower
22:52:10  <Hackykid> hmm
22:52:14  <Hackykid> or something like that
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22:53:09  <RichK67> hi all
22:53:48  <Hackykid> heya RichK67
22:54:51  <RichK67> hmm MiniIN is getting out of sync with trunk :(    more work
22:57:30  <CIA-3> richk * r5339 /branch/TGP/ (debug.c debug.h misc.c): [TGP]: Added new debug category (tgp) to monitor when different phases of terrain generation are reached.
22:58:30  <bulio> what is the difference of minI
22:59:23  <bulio> also, it overwrites the openttd folder?
22:59:46  <RichK67> you can download it to a different folder - much easier
23:00:47  <RichK67> MiniIN provides a blend of interesting patches onto the nightly - so it adds a new terrain generator, more airports, subsidiaries, snow in temperate, pbs, lots of good things :)
23:01:17  <bulio> awesome
23:01:25  <bulio> so make a new folder in program files?
23:01:28  <bulio> put it in there?
23:02:19  <RichK67> or wherever you like - download the latest build from the SVN, or get the twice weekly auto-build at
23:03:08  <RichK67> for more info go to the wiki -
23:03:59  <bulio> great, thanks
23:04:09  <bulio> your a developer of OpenTTD I assume?
23:04:18  <RichK67> i do the MiniIN
23:04:31  <bulio> awesome
23:04:43  <RichK67> and several of the patches - TGP (terrain), New Airports, Snow, etc... :)
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23:06:54  <bulio> tring the game now
23:07:10  <bulio> no music though?
23:07:34  <RichK67> you need the files from the /gm folder of your TTDLX game
23:07:36  <glx> for music you need ttd gm folder
23:07:43  <RichK67> echo....
23:07:53  <bulio> ok
23:08:52  <bulio> hrmm
23:09:00  <bulio> it'd be nice to make a breakdowns patch
23:09:12  <bulio> to decrease the % of breakdowns
23:09:16  <bulio> I always play with them off
23:09:22  <bulio> there's just too many heh
23:09:40  <glx> they depend on engine reliability
23:09:51  <glx> and depot visit frequency
23:11:17  <RichK67> i usually put a mandatory depot visit after exit of loading station (where it has just waited)... it is then in top condition to run to its destination without breakdown... and then i force a mandatory service on the way back... i regularly keep 70%+ reliability
23:12:14  <bulio> what about buildnig stations
23:12:17  <glx> DSSSSRRRRRRSSSSD works well
23:12:30  <bulio> How would I go about building a large station with 16+ tracks?
23:12:32  <glx> for single line
23:12:51  <bulio> double line, but they become large
23:12:53  <bulio> *larger
23:13:00  <glx> you increase station spread?
23:13:05  <valhallazzzw> only 16+? :(
23:13:18  <valhallazzzw> you must be joking 8)
23:13:40  <bulio> how many can you make?
23:13:49  <bulio> I don't mean how to build it
23:13:53  <bulio> I mean how to maintain it
23:14:01  <bulio> with different trains coming from different places
23:14:11  <valhallazzzw> you've got two entrance and two exit tracks
23:14:14  <valhallazzzw> what's the problem?
23:14:27  <glx> use dedicated path could help too
23:14:42  <valhallazzzw> ottdcoop makes larger stations than that :p
23:14:48  <valhallazzzw> but I can't get my openttd atm :/
23:16:02  <[Shaman]> an 8-wide 6 long station would use 16 tracks at least :P
23:16:08  <[Shaman]> 8 entry, 8 exit
23:16:21  <valhallazzzw> erm, no
23:16:23  <[Shaman]> entry>exit combinations work WAY better than entry <> exit
23:16:23  <bulio> can someone send me a map file with some really big and complex train lines?
23:16:29  <bulio> I wanna see how they work
23:16:34  <valhallazzzw> bulio:
23:16:39  <valhallazzzw> there are some nice savegames there :)
23:16:55  <glx> some need a really good CPU though
23:17:16  <glx> ("pile" for example)
23:17:22  <valhallazzzw> don't use NPF
23:17:24  <valhallazzzw> NPF = death
23:17:32  <bulio> how do you share a company?
23:17:45  <RichK67> Pile Transport is my test game to see if the MiniIN is working ;)
23:17:59  <valhallazzzw> :E
23:18:00  <valhallazzzw> :D
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23:18:41  <Brianetta> valhallazzzw: Momentary vampirism?
23:18:49  <valhallazzzw> XD
23:18:52  <arex> what is thought of the best way to make much money in the beginning of a game?
23:19:02  <[Shaman]> :F
23:19:09  <valhallazzzw> coal!
23:19:11  <Brianetta> arex: Coal, wood.
23:19:15  <[Shaman]> coal
23:19:23  <arex> short or long distances?
23:19:23  <bulio> any experienced players wanna play in a co-op game with me now?
23:19:30  * Brianetta is off to bed
23:19:30  <bulio> I just wanna see how some pros do it
23:19:31  <bulio> :)
23:19:41  <Brianetta> Fri Jun 23 00:19:42 BST 2006
23:19:45  <valhallazzzw> soz, no coop installed :(
23:19:48  <Brianetta> It's tomorrow already
23:19:50  <valhallazzzw> 01:19 here :+
23:19:57  <[Shaman]> then a line between a raw material and a factory that turns it into goods ( wood > sawmill, farm > factory), to then combine the goods line to a town.
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23:20:56  <Ihmemies> 180M/year
23:21:02  <[Shaman]> you can basically feed your own goodsline with goods, so if you keep it open for expansion you can link more farms/steel mills to it to increase goods output
23:21:06  <[Shaman]> to then expand the goods line
23:21:15  <arex> yeah, i build like that
23:21:19  <arex> but not in the beginning
23:21:32  <arex> i transport coal now
23:21:38  <Sacro> grrr
23:21:50  <arex> but im not making much money :P
23:21:58  <[Shaman]> RichK67: When using the scenerio editor > random map thingie, it doesn't add the towns/industries.. while it's in the menu.. maybe add town/industry creation or 'disabling' the two boxes
23:22:04  <[Shaman]> it looks confusing now
23:22:20  <[Shaman]> arex: money == distance *speed
23:22:49  <Sacro> [Shaman]: == time?
23:23:01  <[Shaman]> eh, speed/time yeh
23:23:27  <Sacro> oh no, time = distance / speed
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23:23:54  <valhallazzzw> girls = time x money, time = money, girls = money^2, money is the root of all evil, so money=sqrt(evil) && money^2 = evil. Hence girls = evil
23:23:56  <[Shaman]> money == distance / time :P
23:23:57  <valhallazzzw> ^_^
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23:24:16  <[Shaman]> so money == distance * speed ;)
23:24:19  <[Shaman]> confusing, but true :P
23:25:41  <[Shaman]> arex: deliver coal to a power station not -that- close by, and try to optimise the track for speed
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23:26:34  <RichK67> Shaman: in the scenario editor, I will eventually have a whole load of build options, so you can get it to produce a map exactly as if you had done NewGame... its just annoying how clumsy the ScenGen is at the moment
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23:34:57  <Ihmemies> cities grow more effectively if you make own roads?
23:35:12  <Ihmemies> like R__R .. and the city builds R_R (more roads, less room for apartments?
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23:44:52  <bulio> does openttd have pre-signals?
23:45:04  <lws1984> yes
23:45:23  <[Shaman]> [RichK67]: Shaman: in the scenario editor, I will eventually have a whole load of build options, so you can get it to produce a map exactly as if you had done NewGame... its just annoying how clumsy the ScenGen is at the moment << e//
23:45:24  <glx> build a signal, then ctrl-click on it
23:45:43  <[Shaman]> May i suggest 'disallowing' generating certain industries? :P
23:45:50  <[Shaman]> aka you can end up in a coal-only map or summat
23:46:17  <[Shaman]> or you can enable the raw material ones only, and disable the factories that refine them :P
23:46:39  <[Shaman]> would give a new dimension to funding an industry :o
23:48:24  <RichK67> shaman - that is the idea for the TGP v2.0 ScenGen pack ;)
23:48:36  <[Shaman]> xD
23:58:35  <CIA-3> richk * r5340 /branch/MiniIN/ (33 files in 4 dirs): [MiniIN]: Sync with trunk, r5307-r5338.
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