Log for #openttd on 27th December 2007:
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00:00:39  <pv2b> why do people smuggle cigarattes? is there really such a big price diff between countries?
00:01:10  <Gonozal_VIII> yes, two to three times more expensive here
00:01:47  <pv2b> is it really smuggling though? the EU. free trade etc. as long as you don't bring more than for "personal use"... *<:-)
00:02:07  <pv2b> the bringing it over the part prolly isn't too hard
00:02:09  <Eddi|zuHause2> there is no "free trade"
00:02:11  <pv2b> the selling it though.
00:02:25  <Eddi|zuHause2> there is only "free travel"
00:02:40  <Eddi|zuHause2> there are precise rules how much you can bring over the border
00:02:41  <Gonozal_VIII> most of the time the smugglers don't sell it do just anybody
00:02:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> without paying customs fee
00:03:04  <Gonozal_VIII> like czech people that work here and bring in cigarettes for their colleges
00:03:32  <Gonozal_VIII> co-workers...
00:03:34  <Gonozal_VIII> stuff
00:03:35  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
00:04:06  <Gonozal_VIII> they don't run around in the streets with cigarettes under their coat or something...
00:07:25  <Gonozal_VIII> there are no border controls so it's easy for them to fill the trunk with cigarettes and make some easy money
00:08:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, the customs do stop people and make sporadic controls near the border
00:09:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> e.g. near the dutch border, where they stop cars of the "target group" who is likely to smuggle drugs
00:09:49  <Gonozal_VIII> it's not that easy to find a target group for cigarettes, they are normal workers most of the time
00:09:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> they can even collect import taxes on the fuel you got behind the border
00:10:21  <Gonozal_VIII> thousands of workers drive in every day
00:10:24  <pv2b> i've driven through europe a few times (belgium-holland-germany-denmark-sweden)
00:10:29  <pv2b> i don't think i've ever been stopped
00:12:16  <pv2b> at lest two interesting border crossings there
00:12:29  <pv2b> denmark-sweden -- alcohol smuggling possible, and holland-germany
00:13:51  <glx> spain-france is a nice one too
00:14:13  <pv2b> why?
00:14:41  <Gonozal_VIII> everything is very expensive in france
00:16:35  <Gonozal_VIII> i guess the differences will eventually fade away but not in the near future
00:17:33  <glx> if the difference is reduced it won't be in the right way
00:18:08  <Gonozal_VIII> maybe the former poor countries will be richer then because lots of companies moved there...
00:26:21  <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: you have a knack for killing conversations
00:26:33  <Gonozal_VIII> :-(
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00:54:25  <strstrep> Is there a way to force a client to connect to a server with a version mismatch?
00:54:37  <Gonozal_VIII> bad idea?
00:54:45  <strstrep> I'm testing something
00:54:56  <Gonozal_VIII> compile it with forced version...
00:54:58  <Gonozal_VIII> but bad idea
00:55:08  <strstrep> The actual code in the versions is the same.
00:55:14  <Belugas> really bad idea...
00:55:17  <strstrep> I have to do some voodoo for the cross-compile to work correctly.
00:56:34  <Belugas> if same code, why the givl are you doing it???
00:56:38  <Belugas> anyway, i'm not here...
00:56:44  <strstrep> Essentially I want my r11704 client to connect to my r11704M server.
00:56:47  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
00:57:07  <Gonozal_VIII> if it's the same code, then it's not m
00:57:39  <strstrep> I changed some <> to "" in includes
00:57:40  <glx> then you can try to force server rev, but bad things may happen (mainly desyncs)
00:57:59  <glx> why did you do that?
00:58:26  <strstrep> zlib isn't cross-compiled for ARM in my distribution
00:58:28  <glx> <> is used for system includes, "" for custom includes
00:59:52  <SpComb> src/rev.cpp
00:59:59  <strstrep> Thanks
01:00:11  <glx> src/ indeed
01:00:51  <glx> or ./configure --revision=rxxxx
01:00:52  <SpComb> vim -p src/rev.*
01:00:52  <strstrep> Actually, I should be able to change that back if I add -I. (more hackery)
01:01:31  <strstrep> glx: I'm trying to reproduce that industry prospecting bug by hosting the server on an ARM machine I have.
01:01:55  <glx> you can also use LDFLAGS=... ./configure
01:01:57  <strstrep> glx: Then try to poke around and see if I can fix the bug (maybe)
01:02:44  <glx> hmm CFLAGS is better for -I stuff :)
01:02:51  <strstrep> glx: Yes it is ;-)
01:07:05  <strstrep> I probably should create a full cross-compile environment for this, but I was just trying to do a quick-and-dirty job.
01:07:28  <strstrep> Has anyone tried running OpenTTD on arm-linux?
01:07:36  <strstrep> At least the dedicated server?
01:08:58  <Gonozal_VIII> i've never even heard of arm linux
01:09:11  <strstrep> ARM is the hardware platform, Linux is the OS.
01:09:18  <strstrep> ARM is found in a lot of embedded devices.
01:10:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> "25  (c)  B  User-defined bit mask to set when checking veh. var. 42" why is there no link to what variable 42 does?
01:11:05  <roboboy> gmorning
01:11:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> morning, right, it's 2AM
01:11:25  <Gonozal_VIII> nobody knows what 42 does
01:12:56  <Eddi|zuHause2> "42  D  Cargo types transported by consist"
01:14:16  <glx> uu    the result of ORing the bits of prop. 25 from all vehicles in the train
01:14:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> i basically need a name for the variables ;)
01:15:38  <Gonozal_VIII> cargoTypes?^^
01:17:04  <Eddi|zuHause2> do i read this correctly as in "Property 25 defines which cargo types are allowed to be attached"?
01:17:13  <glx> no
01:17:44  <Eddi|zuHause2> then what does this mean?
01:18:49  <glx> say you have a consist ABC, prop 25 is used in a|b|c
01:19:18  <strstrep> Yay, I can reproduce the desync
01:19:22  <glx> and this value is the high byte of callback 42 result
01:20:13  <Eddi|zuHause2> i don't understand...
01:22:20  <glx> well if A prop 25 is 0x01, B prop 25 is 0x04, C prop 25 is 0x10, and you have A-B-C consist, cb 42 result is 0x15xxxxxx
01:24:21  <glx> and it's up to the grf coder to know what it means :)
01:24:36  <strstrep> glx: I think I fixed #1561 - desync when building primary industry.
01:24:57  <strstrep> glx: I can reliably get a desync without the patch, and with the patch, I can reliably not desync.
01:25:00  <glx> you extracted the random calls
01:25:05  <strstrep> glx: Yup
01:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> hm, i think i understand now, but that does not give me a sensible name ;)
01:25:50  <glx> var42 bits
01:26:30  <glx> strstrep: and does it desync if you extract only one call?
01:26:43  <strstrep> I haven't tried that.
01:26:45  <strstrep> It shouldn't desync.
01:27:00  <strstrep> I can test it.
01:27:04  <glx> we tried and it desynced
01:28:29  <Gonozal_VIII> rule: don't do random calls inside function calls :-)
01:29:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> i said that previously ;)
01:29:07  <SmatZ> rule #34
01:29:11  <glx> yes we need to check all random calls :)
01:29:37  <SmatZ> one call to Random() in function parameter shouldn't change anything
01:29:41  <SmatZ> why do you think so?
01:29:54  <SmatZ> I may be wrong of course :)
01:31:06  <strstrep> It's because C does not define an order in which to evaluate arguments to a function call.  Either Random() call could be resolved first.  By taking it out of the function call, the order is forced.
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01:31:25  <SmatZ> strstrep: when there is just one Random() as glx described?
01:31:31  <SmatZ> in the function parameter
01:31:40  <SmatZ> when one of them is removed
01:31:44  <strstrep> Any function call that changes state and depends on that state in C is a bug.
01:31:50  <strstrep> I'm recompiling.
01:32:07  <glx> <-- this one desynced too
01:32:52  <strstrep> tile should be a new variable local to that bracket
01:32:59  <strstrep> Right?
01:33:21  <SmatZ> strstrep: except ugliness of code, no
01:33:30  <SmatZ> and future possible problems
01:33:36  <strstrep> Or is tile not needed to be preserved across that line?
01:33:59  <glx> tile is not used for prospection so it's ok to reuse it
01:34:34  <SmatZ> strstrep: it wouldn't cause desync anyway
01:34:39  <SmatZ> even if it was buggy
01:34:46  <strstrep> It *shouldn't*.
01:34:56  <glx> or the compiler does tricky stuff again :)
01:35:13  <SmatZ> that would be definitelly compiler bug
01:35:30  <strstrep> Marked as volatile maybe?
01:36:00  <glx> like the nice grf stack bug we had because MSVC overoptimised calls
01:36:05  <SmatZ> there are no computed pointers nor threads
01:36:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> <-- comments/errors/suggestions?
01:36:25  <SmatZ> glx: that wasn't compiler bug
01:36:43  <glx> yes it was our code indeed but still
01:36:46  <Gonozal_VIII> no idea what .py is
01:36:52  <strstrep> python
01:37:04  <SmatZ> glx: this is the same case - probably :)
01:37:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's a text file
01:37:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> open in $editor
01:37:25  <strstrep> No desync in my case for a patch very similar to yours.
01:37:35  <strstrep> Only changes would be variable name changes to location,
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01:37:47  <strstrep> And it's locally declared in the for loop as a TileIndex
01:38:07  <SmatZ> I agree that 'tile' shouldn't be used because it is not nice from code readability and possible future problems
01:38:14  <SmatZ> and a little comment would be useful too
01:38:46  <SmatZ> like "do not try to combine these two Random() into the function call, it has undefined behaviour" or so
01:39:05  <SmatZ> if this is really the problem
01:39:24  <SmatZ> and the moving of the Random() somewhere else just doesn't hide original problem
01:39:32  <strstrep> It really is *A* problem.  My testing shows it to be the problem, but glx's testing suggests otherwise.
01:39:50  <SmatZ> because compiler won't do optimisation at that place that is actually wrong too
01:40:33  <SmatZ> strstrep: I agree this has to be fixed - no matter if it fixes FS#1561
01:42:09  <strstrep> Well, it fixes 1561 for me, but I can't say for certain that it is the only fix needed... I haven't tried all platforms.
01:42:19  <glx> Eddi|zuHause3: doesn't look bad
01:42:28  <Gonozal_VIII> eddi, so you replace the hex stuff with names?
01:42:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's the general idea of a higher level language, yes ;)
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01:44:04  <Gonozal_VIII> not really a different language then, only aliases...
01:44:14  <Gonozal_VIII> i like it :-)
01:44:19  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's only part of the work ;)
01:45:23  <glx> strstrep: you could at least follow the style ;)
01:45:29  <Gonozal_VIII> could be enough with a nice client program with some dropdowns where you can select those...
01:45:34  <strstrep> oh, that's right
01:45:39  <strstrep> I should read up on that.
01:45:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> i am NOT going to program an IDE
01:46:08  <Gonozal_VIII> you don't have to
01:46:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> just forget that thought, talk to Wolf01 ;)
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01:46:55  <Gonozal_VIII> what happened with wolf01?
01:47:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> he went to bed?
01:47:17  <strstrep> I must be blind
01:47:23  <strstrep> I can't find the coding style file
01:47:38  <Gonozal_VIII> yes but... why should i talk to him?
01:47:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> he wants a klicki-bunti definition of grfs ;)
01:48:06  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
01:48:19  <Gonozal_VIII> maybe i could hack together something in java...
01:48:44  <SmatZ> strstrep: check wiki
01:48:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> it might be easier once i finish my work
01:49:04  <Gonozal_VIII> i know
01:49:37  <Gonozal_VIII> can't select some stupid hex values that don't say anything from a dropdown...
01:49:59  <strstrep> Spaces around equals?
01:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> wise use of spaces can improve readability
01:51:33  <Gonozal_VIII> i always places spaces around '='
01:51:39  <Gonozal_VIII> -es
01:51:41  <Gonozal_VIII> +e
01:51:44  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
01:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's nice that python disallows assignments in if expressions, because writing "=" instead of "==" is the most common mistake i make
01:52:40  <Gonozal_VIII> i only did that at the beginning...
01:52:48  <Gonozal_VIII> java compiler complains about that
01:53:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> after decades of only programming in Pascal-like languages, i always make that mistake
01:53:54  <Gonozal_VIII> most common mistake for me is to forget the ;
01:54:35  <strstrep> Mmm Perl >:-)
01:55:42  <Gonozal_VIII> when i write something in java it hardly ever compiles on first try because of some missing ;
01:56:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> i rarely do that... except at the end of a block
01:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> pascal did not need ; before "end"
01:56:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> what i occasionally do is try to write ; in python, which does not need it
01:57:02  <Gonozal_VIII> or when i copy and paste stuff around i often copy too much
01:57:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> if (a) {b} else {c} <- and suddenly i forgot two ;
01:58:55  <Gonozal_VIII> i wouldn't write that in a single line...
01:58:59  <strstrep> New patch
01:59:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> doesn't matter
01:59:08  <strstrep> I added a comment, too
01:59:34  <Gonozal_VIII> i know it doesn't matter for the compiler but it matters for me
01:59:57  <Gonozal_VIII> i always make a newline after {
02:00:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, what i mean is "i just wrote it in one line here for compactness, i'd probably split it in a program"
02:00:20  <strstrep> Sorry about that.
02:00:21  <Gonozal_VIII> ah ok
02:00:42  <Eddi|zuHause3> the fact is, i often forget ; before }
02:01:19  <Gonozal_VIII> it's not so easy to forget that, if the } is in another line
02:01:37  <SmatZ> strstrep: no problem, I hope it will help (it should help at least with part of it)...
02:01:37  <SmatZ> night
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02:01:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> unless you learned pascal first ;)
02:02:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> anyway, the = == issue is much more common
02:02:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> i practically make that every time...
02:02:58  <Gonozal_VIII> well... at uni they told us so often about the = == issue that almost nobody made that mistake
02:03:35  <Gonozal_VIII> it was one of the first things they told us
02:03:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> sure, i know the issue
02:03:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> still i make it
02:04:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's one of the reasons why i hate C-style syntax
02:04:26  <Gonozal_VIII> then it's a good thing that it's not allowed and the compiler complains
02:05:03  <Gonozal_VIII> otherwise there would be a lot of strange bugs because of that
02:06:03  <pv2b> i dislike pascal syntax. so many words, so few symbols
02:11:41  <Gonozal_VIII> it's 3 am :O it was 1 am just a few moments ago...
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02:26:29  <strstrep>
02:26:37  <strstrep> sorry, wrong channel
02:27:40  <glx> hehe at least it wasn't the auto-kick command :)
02:28:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> does that actually work meanwhile?
02:30:23  <Gonozal_VIII> !password
02:30:24  *** Gonozal_VIII was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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02:30:32  <Gonozal_VIII> no
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02:46:06  <strstrep> I take it you get that a lot.
02:50:15  <Gonozal_VIII> actually it only happened once afaik
02:57:41  <glx> once we had someone who typed it 3 or 4 times within 30 minutes
02:57:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> once a week you mean
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02:58:55  <Gonozal_VIII> i didn't see any kicks because of that since the script is there (except on purpose)
02:59:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> grep "\!password"* | wc -l
02:59:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> 48
02:59:47  <Gonozal_VIII> ?
03:00:36  <Gonozal_VIII> can that thing also count the kicks?
03:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> grep "\!password"* -A1 | grep geworfen | wc -l
03:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> 6
03:06:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> <-- updated with Vehicle IDs
03:06:53  <Gonozal_VIII> :-)
03:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> now import these names into a definition table...
03:08:15  <Gonozal_VIII> interface where you select the names and it generates the hex...
03:08:19  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
03:08:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> a definition table has to reverse these lists
03:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> but that can be autogenerated easily
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04:47:55  <Gonozal_VIII> """ <-- that's some kind of multi line comment thing?
04:50:35  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm doesn't matter...
04:50:40  <Gonozal_VIII> <-- bed
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09:23:47  <dihedral> hello :-)
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09:39:07  <LA[lord]> hello dihedral
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11:25:46  <ludde> hello
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11:26:34  <dihedral> hello ludde
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11:30:37  <ludde> sup
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11:31:54  <dihedral> not much
11:31:56  <dihedral> just saying hi
11:31:59  <dihedral> 'hi' :-P
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11:32:46  <wiese> hi
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11:35:53  <nzvip> Hehe.
11:35:57  <nzvip> I laughed.
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12:14:39  <Belugas> hello ludde and dihedral
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12:15:42  <dihedral> hello Belugas
12:15:45  <dihedral> how are you?
12:16:51  <SmatZ> hello
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12:28:48  <Digitalfox_> Good morning everybody, or good afternoon or good night :)
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12:47:46  <wiese> hi, may i ask a question? i searched the wiki and wondered if it's possible to have different typs of settings (temperate, sub-tropical,..) on one map
12:48:34  <dihedral> yes you may ask a question
12:48:40  <dihedral> may i give you an answer?
12:49:25  <Digitalfox_> yes you may give an answer dihedral o_O
12:49:29  <wiese> yes please :)
12:50:45  <dihedral> it's not possible :-P
12:51:18  <wiese> damn
12:51:20  <dihedral> Digitalfox_: i was making fun of 'asking to ask a question' :-P
12:51:36  <Digitalfox_> i know and also was i ;)
12:51:46  <dihedral> though you might like the alpine grf wiese
12:53:50  <Digitalfox_> Why can't i change my nickname to Digitalfox without the _ ?? " ===	#openttd.notice You may not change nickname while banned or moderated on a channel (+b/+q/+m)"
12:54:39  <dihedral> haha
12:54:44  <dihedral> where are you from Digitalfox_ ?
12:54:46  <wiese> i like the temperate most :)  but in order of making an europe map, it's very tricky to get the right sort of industrie (because the continent got several typs of settings)
12:54:49  <dihedral> if you dont mind me asking
12:55:02  <Digitalfox_> Portugal, why?
12:55:10  <dihedral> just curious
12:55:12  <ln-> Digitalfox_: there's the answer.
12:55:17  <Digitalfox_> And you?
12:55:21  <dihedral> germany
12:55:37  <Digitalfox_> ln, yeah, but it's damn boring to have to quit and enter the channel again
12:55:58  <Digitalfox_> Just because of ISP timeout
12:56:26  <Digitalfox_> Here our ISP renew our IP every 36H
12:56:27  <dihedral> use /rejoin?
12:56:30  <dihedral> or /reconnect
12:57:11  <Digitalfox_> yeah, i've done that dihedral :)
12:57:31  <dihedral> have you registered your nick with nickserv?
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12:57:50  <Digitalfox_> Also our biggest ISP has this crazy diffrence between nacional traffica and internacional traffic
12:57:56  <Digitalfox_> dihedral: no
12:58:12  <dihedral> talk to nickserv (/msg nickserv help)
12:58:32  <Digitalfox_> So bettwen nacional clientes i can make ilimited trafic. but for interncaional traffic i have 120GB of limit
12:58:46  <dihedral> ?
12:59:07  <ln-> c->t and i -> un
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13:00:09  <dihedral> tlients ??
13:00:30  <wiese> no national
13:00:43  <dihedral> i was pulling ln-'s leg
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13:25:58  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11705 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1557]: trains could have sprites with wrong direction when reversing, also was inconsistent with save/load process (possible desyncs)
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13:35:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r11706 /trunk/src/ (83 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: split vehicle.h and remove another bunch of useless includes.
13:38:57  <roboboy> gnight soon
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14:11:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r11707 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Fix: do not allow refitting flooded (destroyed) vehicles
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14:25:30  <dihedral> how on earth could destroyed vehicles be refitted?
14:26:30  <Belugas> thus the fix ;)
14:28:40  <dihedral> hehe - no
14:28:50  <dihedral> i mean
14:28:56  <dihedral> how was it possible before?
14:29:05  <dihedral> because if it was not possible, why a fix?
14:30:40  <Belugas> if SmatZ fixed it, it means that he has found a way to do so, and i trust him on finding/fixing strange bugs :)
14:31:33  <Vikthor> dihedral: You can have flooded vehicle in depot I believe
14:32:27  <SmatZ> yes, flooded vehicles in depot were reason for some fixes
14:32:31  <SmatZ> eg. they could be sold
14:32:35  <SmatZ> they could be moved
14:32:43  <dihedral> Belugas: i was not trying to say anything against that
14:32:44  <glx> and even if it was not possible using gui, internally it could be possible
14:32:53  <dihedral> just wanted to still my curiosity :-D
14:33:11  <dihedral> glx: yeah - ok :-P
14:34:11  <dihedral> but getting back to what SmatZ found
14:34:15  <dihedral> flooded vehicles in a depot
14:34:20  <Belugas> dihedral: to be honest, i'd rather not know :)
14:34:21  <dihedral> would the depot not be flooded also
14:34:28  <dihedral> Belugas: LOL
14:34:31  <SmatZ> dihedral: things like this were possible earlier too
14:34:41  <SmatZ> you could have some 'ghost' train of flooded wagons ;-)
14:35:08  <SmatZ> dihedral: just try it
14:35:10  <dihedral> hehehe
14:35:22  <dihedral> did it make extra money? :-P
14:35:35  <SmatZ> no :)
14:35:52  <SmatZ> it just caused asserts when multiheaded engine was missing its second part
14:35:59  <dihedral> :-P
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14:38:42  * dihedral greets 'the' Bjarni
14:39:12  * qball hides from 'the' Bjarni
14:39:14  <Bjarni> greetings people
14:39:21  <dihedral> hello
14:39:29  * Bjarni catches qball
14:39:29  * dihedral points at qball
14:39:32  <Bjarni> now pay up
14:39:32  <dihedral> there he is
14:39:55  <dihedral> Bjarni beat me to it :-P
14:42:39  <qball> omg, bjarni catched me...
14:42:46  * qball puts on the armored underwear
14:43:08  <Bjarni> ...
14:43:20  <Bjarni> expecting to be put in jail?
14:43:36  <qball> you know what the judge said, Bjarni. you cannot mollest inocent people
14:43:55  <Bjarni> but I am the law
14:44:06  <Bjarni> however I have no interest in you
14:44:11  <qball> thx god
14:44:12  <Bjarni> besides missing taxes
14:44:34  <dihedral> you guys are odd
14:45:30  <qball> dihedral: be nice..
14:45:33  <qball> we are
14:45:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: egladil * r11708 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ ( -Fix [FS#1598]: Removed include of variables.h as it was no longer needed and caused compilation to fail.
14:46:17  <dihedral> qball: you are odd?
14:46:30  <SmatZ> I am even
14:46:38  <qball> I am complex
14:46:45  <dihedral> qball is femail!
14:46:53  <dihedral> ops - nice typo :-P
14:47:42  * Bjarni fesends qball after making sure it has enough festamps on it
14:48:06  <qball> bah, he directly wants to fondle again
14:49:32  <Bjarni> hey
14:49:51  <Bjarni> I don't sense any sexual feeling regarding sending packages at the post office
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14:51:50  * dihedral is not interested when Bjarni does or does not 'sense secual feelings'
14:52:07  <dihedral> flippen heck - got a typo day....
14:52:35  <Belugas> sexual healing
14:52:36  <Bjarni> I'm not talking about it but it looks like qball wants to
14:53:38  <dihedral> just get yourselves a room will ya?
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14:54:58  <Bjarni> not with him
14:55:00  <Bjarni> he is a guy
14:55:17  <dihedral> not so sure about that
14:55:26  <dihedral> 15:46 < qball> I am complex
14:56:47  <Bjarni> well
14:56:55  <Bjarni> I still don't want to get a room with him
14:57:02  <Bjarni> or her
14:57:03  <Bjarni> or it
14:57:05  <Bjarni> or whatever
14:57:21  <dihedral> you never know what might get revealed :-P
14:58:11  <Bjarni> like in Larry 5 or 6 or whatever it was... he went on a date and his date ended up getting a boner
14:58:18  <Bjarni> talk about a turnoff
14:59:03  <dihedral> hehe - yes
14:59:07  <dihedral> 5
14:59:10  <dihedral> at the beach
14:59:13  <dihedral> :-P
14:59:54  <Bjarni> I can't remember
14:59:57  <Bjarni> it has been a while
15:00:17  <Bjarni> and I didn't even bother to finish any of the games besides the first one
15:00:28  <Bjarni> didn't even try all of them
15:01:08  *** divoafx [~asd@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:01:35  <dihedral> i know because it was the only one i ever played
15:05:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r11709 /trunk/config.lib:
15:05:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#1385 FS#1386]: [OSX] Compiles on Leopard with the default settings
15:05:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change: [OSX] configure will no longer enable static by default
15:05:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  Turns out that Leopard can't handle static builds without the user installing extra libs
15:06:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD:  The tradeoff is that now people might have to enable static manually if moving the binary around
15:06:30  <hylje> apple breaking stuff, news at 11
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15:06:38  <skidd13> evening folks
15:06:52  <dihedral> hello skidd13
15:11:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> i think i have now action8 support in my compiler ;)
15:11:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> 0 * 4 01 00 00 00
15:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> 1 * 91 08 07 54 58 01 01 4E 61 6D 65 20 67 6F 65 73 20 68 65 72 65 00 68 65 72 65 20 79 6F 75 20 63 61 6E 20 77 72 69 74 65 20 61 20 6C 6F 6E 67 65 72 20 64 65 73 63 72 69 70 74 69 6F 6E 0A 69 6E 20 6D 75 6C 74 69 70 6C 65 20 6C 69 6E 65 73 0A 69 66 20 79 6F 75 20 77 61 6E 74 00
15:12:13  <Bjarni> <hylje> apple breaking stuff, news at 11 <-- actually this wouldn't have been a problem if I had just followed Apple's guidelines :P
15:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> output of:
15:12:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> GrfID=('TX\x01\x01','Name goes here',
15:12:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> """here you can write a longer description
15:12:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> in multiple lines
15:12:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> if you want""") #Set the GRFID
15:12:41  <hylje> is that some python
15:12:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is python, yes ;)
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15:13:47  <Bjarni> I thought python had way more sssh sounds in it
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15:13:57  <glx> does it work with empty description?
15:14:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> it should
15:14:25  <Bjarni> should.... how about testing it? :)
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15:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> 0 * 4 01 00 00 00
15:14:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> 1 * 8 08 07 54 58 01 01 00 00
15:15:27  <glx> seems right
15:15:56  <Eddi|zuHause3> next step... action 0
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15:46:53  <LordAzamath> hey
15:47:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: bjarni * r11710 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Feature: [build vehicles windows] added sorting for cost, running costs and speed to road vehicles and ships build windows
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15:48:33  <LordAzamath> what was the last big feature added since r11666
15:48:49  <LordAzamath> I think heree should I update my nightly
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15:51:22  <Bjarni> the nightly builds are made to test changes. That purpose kind of dies if you do not update even for minor changes
15:52:03  <LordAzamath> Yeah, but are what are the biggest changes then
15:52:10  * LordAzamath is too lazy for a changelog
15:52:20  <dihedral> Bjarni: that commit (11710) will that feature be added to the train build list too?
15:52:58  <LordAzamath> !nightly
15:53:21  <LordAzamath> what's the shortcut ffor it?
15:53:44  <skidd13> @nightly
15:53:51  <skidd13> hmm... nope
15:54:10  <skidd13>
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15:55:31  <LordAzamath> it's so great that I no more have to copy all grf files to new binary whenever I dl it :) (I could do that before too, but I wasn't aware of that :))
15:55:46  <dihedral> talking of which
15:55:56  <SmatZ> LordAzamath: because of symlinks?
15:55:58  <Bjarni> dihedral: it was already added to the trains and aircraft windows.... I just forgot to add it to the rest of the windows ages ago
15:56:06  <dihedral> Bjarni: would it not make more sense to have the OpenTTD directory for os x under ~/Library ?
15:56:25  <Bjarni> hmm
15:56:27  <Bjarni> good question
15:56:27  <dihedral> or ~/Library/Application Support/
15:56:35  <dihedral> where everything else is keep too
15:56:45  <dihedral> for linux it uses ~/.openttd
15:56:48  <Bjarni> not everything else
15:56:49  <LordAzamath> smatz, I just hold all grfs (trg1r etc) in local openttd/data
15:56:59  <LordAzamath> dunno what are symlinks :D
15:57:01  <Bjarni> I have seen ~/Documents used for other games as well
15:57:18  <dihedral> really?
15:57:22  <dihedral> ouch
15:57:23  <dihedral> nasty :-P
15:57:52  <Bjarni> if we place it in library then most users will not look at it
15:58:01  <dihedral> they dont anyway!!
15:58:04  <Bjarni> kind of stupid since we add screenshots and stuff
15:58:27  <dihedral> how about a deal...
15:58:43  <dihedral> you change it and i answer all silly user questions that arise because of it :-)
15:59:31  <Bjarni> ohh that reminds me
15:59:41  <LordAzamath> Japan? trains?
15:59:43  <Bjarni> I haven't updated the docs to tell where the files are
15:59:50  * Bjarni slaps LordAzamath
15:59:50  <dihedral> TrueBrain told me to look out for your 'that reminds me' lines
15:59:53  <hylje> LordAzamath: japan is *the* train country
16:00:24  <Bjarni>  <LordAzamath> Japan? trains? <--- no.... but your line did the trick :P
16:00:31  <LordAzamath> hehe
16:00:45  <LordAzamath> because I remember
16:00:52  <Bjarni> you too?
16:00:55  <Bjarni> scary
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16:02:14  <LordAzamath> why don't you have line breaks in changelog which comes bundled with nightly?
16:02:28  * dihedral has no app that saves it's stuff in ~/Documents
16:03:13  <Belugas> BigBB : good luck with your attempt ;)
16:03:37  <BigBB> Hi Belugas thanks :)
16:04:19  <LordAzamath> is this ( ) thing fault of Open or grf?
16:04:42  <Bjarni> dihedral: I have a few.... Lego creations and such
16:05:10  <LordAzamath> you play with legos? wow....Japanese lego trains, perfect for Brickland
16:05:11  <skidd13> LordAzamath: Simple rule if it works in Patch as expected.. it's mostly Opens fault... sad but true
16:05:37  <LordAzamath> ok...
16:05:47  <Belugas> agreed.  But the problem may not be as simple
16:06:02  <Bjarni> dihedral: I have an idea... we could make a poll on the forum and ask people what they prefer... after all the forum contains the majority of users who wants to add grf files and stuff
16:07:24  <LordAzamath> one thing more about action04 fully supported?
16:07:40  <LordAzamath> if it is, then I've got a bug rant
16:07:52  <dihedral> Bjarni: how about we poll asking os x users where they would prefer having their OpenTTD directory
16:08:18  <Bjarni> isn't that what I just said?
16:08:45  <dihedral> i thought you meant people in general
16:08:51  <dihedral> i.e. all openttd players
16:09:03  <dihedral> to see if they use grf's or the OpenTTD directory at all
16:09:04  <Bjarni> surely we will have to say that only OSX users should vote
16:09:05  <dihedral> sorry
16:09:06  <dihedral> my bad
16:09:54  <Bjarni> bbl
16:10:00  <dihedral> cu
16:10:11  <ln-> what are you going to vote about?
16:10:37  <dihedral> where os x users would like to have their OpenTTD directory
16:10:58  <dihedral> in ~/Documents or ~/Library/OpenTTD or ~/Library/Appliaction Support/OpenTTD
16:11:32  <dihedral> ~/Documents/OpenTTD is where it is now
16:12:26  <LordAzamath> anyway, the rant: xx * xx 04 48 80 01  01 58 "Toll Booth" 00 -> should change string transmitter to toll booth
16:12:47  <LordAzamath> Sometime long ago, I asked Pikkabird to test if it worked with patch
16:12:50  <LordAzamath> it did
16:12:54  <LordAzamath> but not in open
16:13:09  <LordAzamath> I can change vehicle names with 04 though
16:13:18  * Belugas thinks it's strange to have stuff saved in something called Library that is not code or binary oriented
16:13:21  <glx> LordAzamath: openttd doesn't support changing generic strings
16:13:29  <LordAzamath> why?
16:13:45  <ln-> somehow i feel ~/Library/OpenTTD is not the right place at least.. or are there other application-specific folders at that level?
16:13:50  <glx> because it requires a lot of changes
16:14:01  <ln-> (too lazy to get the mac and check)
16:14:23  <dihedral> ln- like most application folders....
16:14:25  <LordAzamath> but is it somewhere in ToDo list (however far :D )
16:14:31  <dihedral> for linux the dir is ~/.openttd iirc
16:14:36  <LordAzamath> yes
16:14:53  <LordAzamath> and for win under my documents/OpenTTD
16:15:34  <Belugas> which makes sens...  those are just... documents :)
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16:15:52  <dihedral> yes?
16:16:01  <dihedral> you call all the .grf's documents?
16:16:13  <Belugas> yup
16:16:19  <pv2b> Bjarni: I vote for somewhere in ~/Library
16:16:30  <Belugas> those are not executable code, just documents
16:16:31  <LordAzamath> bjarni is away
16:16:54  <pv2b> i vote... in his absence. *<:-P
16:16:56  <dihedral> Belugas: you call Thunderbirds *.rdf and *.mab files documents
16:17:23  <Belugas> since i'm not aware of those extensions, i can't answer
16:17:40  <ln-> the mac ~/Documents folder is not meant for stuff that cannot be directly opened with any application.
16:17:54  <dihedral> they are the files in thunderbirds 'Profiles' directory
16:18:22  <dihedral> you have a mix of stuff in that folder
16:18:28  <dihedral> (in the OpenTTD folder)
16:18:31  <dihedral> screenshots
16:18:34  <Belugas> which does not help me any more, dihedral
16:18:37  <dihedral> grf's scn's
16:19:08  <dihedral> firefox in linux stores it's profile data in ~/.mozilla
16:19:14  <dihedral> thunderbird in ~/.thunderbird
16:19:25  <dihedral> OpenTTD in ~/.openttd
16:19:33  <Belugas> waht is a profile data?
16:19:36  <LordAzamath> thunderbird is for linux too?
16:19:53  <LordAzamath> that's good :)
16:20:31  <pv2b> ln-: there are plenty of app folders directly under ~/Library
16:20:39  <dihedral> for thunderbird the 'profile data' is e.g. host:port username and password of your mail account
16:20:40  <ln-> pv2b: ok
16:21:02  <Belugas> so, basically, configuration
16:21:03  <dihedral> firefox stores favorites history etc there
16:21:38  <dihedral> and os x _does_ have a differences between data stored in ~/Library and ~/Library/Application Support
16:21:40  <pv2b> savegames under ~/Documents, grf's in the library.
16:21:52  <LordAzamath> do you have some documentation somewhere about which grf actions are supported and which parameers etc? I have been to wiki, but it only mentions actions w/o explanation
16:21:59  <dihedral> pv2b: splitting that up will not be helpful
16:22:12  <Belugas> i agree with dihedral
16:22:26  <Belugas> LordAzamath, yes. let me find it
16:22:28  <pv2b> most games seem to keep data files in ~/Library/Application Support
16:22:51  <pv2b> if you want to be consistent, splitting savegames and grfs up makes sense
16:22:56  <dihedral> define 'most'
16:23:05  <Belugas> LordAzamath:
16:23:09  <pv2b> dihedral: all games i currently have installed
16:23:16  <Belugas> it should be quite up to date
16:23:22  <dihedral> that is not a good definition of 'most games'
16:23:37  <dihedral> as i highly doubt you have 'most' games
16:23:39  <Belugas> pv2b : that is only relevant to your experience.  do not generalize
16:23:53  <pv2b> dihedral: which is why i don't say "most games put".. i said "most games seem to put"
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16:24:14  <dihedral> and that is an assumption - which is why i mention it :-)
16:24:17  <LordAzamath> hmm..I said I've been there :D and with emptiness I meant i.e action 4 is just mentioned with link to specs
16:24:36  <pv2b> many of these games ive only installed and launched maybe once, but these are the games that put their game data in ~/Library/Application Support
16:24:47  <LordAzamath> but nowhere is written (for n00bs like me) what things aren't supported in action4
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16:25:38  <pv2b> Chess (the apple variant), Darwinia, Duke Nukem 3D, everything by Freeverse goes in Freeberse, Quake3, SecondLife, SketchFighgter, SuperTux, everything by Swoop Softare goes in that folder, Wolfenstein ET, X2 - the threat, ...
16:25:53  <pv2b> i can't find a single game directly under ~/Library in fact
16:25:55  <pv2b> on my machine
16:26:21  <dihedral> and where will they put screenshots, savegames, etc?
16:26:31  <LordAzamath> it can't be very on-date, if it says that tram tracks in instance aren't supported
16:26:34  <skidd13> LordAzamath: set the grf debug in console and you get notice which stuff of the GRF is not supported
16:26:56  <pv2b> dihedral: some of them put them in the application folder and don't present a file-browser interface at all to the player
16:27:12  <pv2b> dihedral: some of them save them as "savegame files" and put them wherever the user wants them to be put using a file/save-open metaphor
16:27:17  <pv2b> err
16:27:25  <pv2b> not the application folder, the library/application support folder
16:28:10  <pv2b> lots of games simply have a typical save/load screen
16:28:26  <pv2b> with "slots"
16:28:36  <dihedral> 'lots' as in 'most of _your_ games'
16:28:37  <pv2b> openttd doesn't really work that way, it's more document oriented in its savegame model
16:28:39  <Belugas> LordAzamath: basic rule : it there is nothing written, it mostly mean support
16:28:49  <Belugas> but... never be too sure.
16:28:56  <LordAzamath> yes
16:28:58  <pv2b> dihedral: sure, but i think i have a pretty good sample. if you want to contribute some other data, go ahead
16:29:17  <Belugas> LordAzamath I've tried to veryfy it all, it seems to be consistent
16:29:33  <pv2b> dihedral: also "lots" isn't the same as saying "most".
16:29:56  <dihedral> but it's an assumption none the less :-P
16:30:03  <pv2b> a reasonable assumption
16:30:39  <pv2b> openttd is the only game i have, that i cna think of, that keeps stuff in its own folderin /Applications like that.
16:30:55  <dihedral> there are more :-)
16:31:11  <LordAzamath> because if I hadn't asked pikka to test, I would never had known that I had coded right, because there was nothing written in wiki about action4 support. Back then I though I was hopeless and it was me who screwed up with something
16:31:16  <dihedral> dont remember their names, but i have seen more than just ottd
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16:31:28  <pv2b> dihedral: you're right, i just took a look - seems quake 3 arena does that too, but it also keeps files in library/application support. hmmmm.
16:31:29  <LordAzamath> and I didn't know about grf debug otion
16:31:51  <dihedral> q3a might keep info such as your cd key in there
16:31:56  <pv2b> dihedral: ah, i have two revisions of quake 3 -- an older one and a newer one. the oler ne keeps its crap in the /application folder, the newer one in the lbirary
16:32:05  * Belugas has spotted a not supported case in action 04
16:32:26  <dihedral> Belugas: is that what LordAzamath has been going on about for the last 30 mins?
16:32:26  <LordAzamath> :)
16:32:35  <pv2b> eitehr way, htere needs to be a split between "stock-supplied" files and "user-supplied" files
16:32:50  <dihedral> nope
16:33:01  <dihedral> where do you put Pages custom templates?
16:33:07  <dihedral> :-)
16:33:08  <pv2b> dihedral: i don't have pages istalled
16:33:09  <LordAzamath> no I spotted it when I was doing transmitter replacement to you and pikka said that it worked in patch (renaming)
16:33:29  <dihedral> i do :-P
16:33:36  <pv2b> dihedral: but i bet the stock templates are eitehr i /Library or in the app bundle
16:33:49  <pv2b> the custom ones are in ~/Library i bet... maybe in ~/Documents
16:34:09  <dihedral> nope - not ~/Documents
16:34:27  <pv2b> so somewhere in ~/Library then
16:34:33  <pv2b> since they're user-specific
16:34:50  <pv2b> unless it found its own place to put it
16:35:14  <dihedral> ~/Library/Application Support/iWork/Pages/Templates/My Templates/
16:35:28  <pv2b> yeah, and the stock templates i bet are not there
16:35:36  <pv2b> probably in /Library/Application Support/iWork/Pages/Templates/ if i know apple *<:-)
16:36:06  <pv2b> that -- or in the app bundle
16:36:17  <dihedral> how about /Library?
16:36:26  <pv2b> how about /Library for what?
16:36:49  <dihedral> no - forget it
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16:37:04  <dihedral> their templates are not in /Library
16:37:36  <pv2b> ooh, i hae an expired pages trial install. i'll look in their app bundle.
16:38:01  <pv2b> /Applications/iWork/
16:38:24  <dihedral> so you are saying to have the land folder and shipped data folder in the bundled .app
16:38:38  <dihedral> and all other stuff in ~/Library/OpenTTD
16:38:46  <pv2b> yeah
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16:38:58  <pv2b> actually
16:39:02  <dihedral> sounds good
16:39:03  <pv2b> ~/library/application support/openttd
16:39:05  <pv2b> brb phone
16:39:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... while reading these newgrf specs i repetitively stumble over the same kind of question... like "what are sane values for property 12 (Sprite ID) except FD (use newgrf)"?
16:39:38  <pv2b> back
16:40:20  <pv2b> so yeah, shipped data in the .app and grf in ~/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD
16:40:32  <pv2b> an everything else too, like config
16:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause3> or "in action 2, can i refer back more than the last action 1, how do these values look like"?
16:41:17  <pv2b> the user gets to choose where he puts his savegames anyway, but if it defaults inside Library.... well ok.. in Documents would be more logical... but put it in Library unless you're willing to implement double clicking openttd savegames
16:42:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> pv2b: it should not be too difficult to associate sav files with "openttd -g"
16:42:16  <dihedral> drag sav games onto the .app :-P
16:42:34  <pv2b> dihedral: heh, that acctually works? i never tried it *<:-)
16:43:04  <dihedral> hehe
16:43:11  <dihedral> nope
16:43:16  <dihedral> but it would be fun :-)
16:43:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> that should not immediately work, because you need to specify -g
16:43:35  <dihedral> but then again - i dont play that many sav games
16:44:26  <pv2b> you probalby need to implement however file associations work in osx... probably some crap in the plist file and decoding the argv osx sends you whenever something like that happens
16:44:34  <LordAzamath> hmm..I should probably go back to linux now...brb
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16:48:34  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause3, i can't answer you
16:48:49  <Belugas> not without extended research, anyway
16:49:12  <Belugas> which i do not feel like doing :S
16:49:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, the doc is not very specific sometimes...
16:49:41  <Belugas> it assumes you should know... or as Dalestan mentionned once, that you've read it all first
16:50:17  <pv2b> btw. how old is the master server protocol? i want to find whoever deciced it's be funny to send the IP address in little-endian and the port in big-endian in the same packet
16:50:23  <pv2b> s/it's/it'd/
16:51:10  <Belugas> svn blame, pv2b
16:51:34  <pv2b> that only finds the last person to implement the protocol, not the first person to define it *<:-)
16:51:36  <Belugas> LA[lord], i've updated the wiki, assuming you are LordAzamath ;)
16:51:45  <LA[lord]> I am :)
16:52:03  <pv2b> though that person also deserves a little talking to, the code implementation was misleading
16:52:33  <pv2b> he used TO_LE32 to convert from little-endian to network byte order
16:52:40  <pv2b> or no.
16:52:57  <pv2b> from little-endian to... uh.... something
16:53:15  <pv2b> good thing we have packet sniffers
16:54:26  <LA[lord]> Belugas, if generic strings are "kind of" supported then how do I kind of use it?
16:54:32  <LA[lord]> for action04
16:57:14  <Belugas> if you look at the history, you'll notice the "possibly wrong" section :)
16:57:16  <hylje> one thing came in mind..
16:57:22  <hylje> to free up some road crossing bits
16:57:33  <hylje> only allow the slower (conventional) rail to have crossings at all
16:57:50  <Belugas> LA[lord] i'm at work, right now, and not able to run nor debug stuff
16:58:12  <LA[lord]> ok :)
16:58:28  <hylje> though it'd break old savegames badly :>
16:58:28  <Belugas> hylje, that is NOT a good idea
16:58:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm... how does that look like:
16:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> class MyPassengerWagon(TTDPassengerWagon): #We define a new Passenger wagon, and override the default wagon
16:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause3>     SpriteID=0xFD
16:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause3>     IntroductionDate=1234
16:58:36  <Belugas> i just can imagine the complaints....
16:58:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> turns into:
16:58:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> 2 * 10 00 00 02 01 1B 00 D2 04 12 FD
17:00:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> 1B == ID of the passenger wagon
17:01:58  <Belugas> interesting :)
17:02:14  <Bjarni> back
17:02:39  <Bjarni> looks like this channel wants to use ~/Library so making a poll is a bit pointless
17:03:59  <Bjarni> now the question is... how should I make this change without breaking it for everybody using ~/Documents/OpenTTD
17:04:07  * Belugas does not care much about in which folder osx saves ottd stuff, but would imagine more osx users may have more opinions on forums
17:04:10  <Bjarni> and should we care since it has never been in an official release
17:04:52  * Bjarni heads for the forum
17:07:47  *** LA[lord] [~LAlord]] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:08:34  <pv2b> uh. this code should never have worked to start with. i don't understand why it works.
17:08:57  <pv2b> it's in the server browser -- network_udp.cpp
17:09:57  <Belugas> [12:14] <pv2b> uh. this code should never have worked to start with.  <--- but it does :)
17:10:13  <Belugas> [12:14] <pv2b> ...i don't understand why it works.  <---- now, that is something else :)
17:10:51  <Belugas> for the record, it's quite magical to me too.  But i would not say that it should not work...
17:11:05  <pv2b> take a look at DEF_UDP_RECEIVE_COMMAND(Client, PACKET_UDP_MASTER_RESPONSE_LIST)
17:11:29  <pv2b> on the wire, the fields are sent with the port in the correct byte order (little endian) for the protocol.
17:11:54  <pv2b> the ip address is sent in big endian (so the wrong byte order for the protocol)
17:12:24  <pv2b> so when the packet is received on the machine it has to be converted from "architecture-specific wrong byte order" into network byte order
17:12:50  <pv2b> (you get architecture-specific wrong byte order from p->Recv_uint32())
17:12:57  <pv2b> so... he uses TO_LE32?!
17:13:25  <pv2b> and somehow this works on both big-endian and little-endian machines?
17:15:36  <Belugas> could it be that you have failed to understand a magice here and there?  'Cause it do work
17:15:55  <pv2b> probably
17:16:00  <Belugas> and no, i cannot answer you, i have no knowledge of networking
17:16:09  <pv2b> that, or TO_LE32 is a broken and misleading name for a macro
17:16:25  <Belugas> or adapted to the currently used platform
17:16:39  <Belugas> or it is somewhere else that the magic hapens
17:17:58  *** LordAzamath [] has joined #openttd
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17:18:08  <pv2b> ah. now i see. on a little-endian machine, no byte swap is performed
17:18:11  <SmatZ> pv2b: network byte order is big endian
17:18:21  <pv2b> SmatZ: it is, but the openttd protocol uses little-endian
17:18:31  <Bjarni> how do I change font size on the forum?
17:18:40  <Bjarni> I want the first line to be bigger than the rest
17:18:47  <pv2b> oh, now i think i understand how it works.
17:19:17  <SmatZ> pv2b: sockets and so should be initiated with big endian
17:19:22  <pv2b> SmatZ: yeah, i know
17:19:31  <pv2b> if you perform TO_LE32 on an integer on a big-endian machine, it performs byte swap (converting from HBO to little-endian)
17:19:33  <SmatZ> the datacan be sent in little endian - because mos tof clients use little endian
17:19:46  <SmatZ> and because it is ported from TTD that was using little endian
17:20:00  <pv2b> if on a little-endian machine, it does nothing
17:20:14  <pv2b> so, perform byteswap on a big-endian machie, no byteswap on a little-endian machine
17:20:20  <SmatZ> :)
17:20:31  <pv2b> but if the input is *always* in the wrong byte order:
17:20:45  <pv2b> on a little-endian machine: that's big-endian->big-endian
17:20:52  <pv2b> on a bigg-endian machine: little-endian->big-endian
17:21:02  <pv2b> this should be commented. will you commit a patch if i add a comment? *<:-)
17:21:19  <SmatZ> pv2b: most likely not for one comment
17:21:28  <SmatZ> you can comment whole file :-))))
17:21:34  <Belugas> definitively, if the comment is quite thorough
17:21:34  <Bjarni> that depends on the comment
17:21:47  * Belugas seconds SmatZ :D
17:21:51  <pv2b> okay. i'll get back to you in a few minutes
17:21:58  <pv2b> i have no svn write access so ill have to send it to someone
17:22:07  <Bjarni> you can comment the whole file that quickly???
17:22:16  <SmatZ> :)))
17:22:18  <pv2b> no, just that really confusing part.
17:22:21  <pv2b> the rest is really clear
17:23:10  <pv2b> openttd avoids byte order issues by using an abstraction that converts from little-endian to host byte order before anything else is done, so usually there's no real problems
17:23:47  <SmatZ> similiar thing is done while loading/saving game
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17:25:49  <Bjarni> <-- ok... I made a poll on the forums so now we will see how it turns out
17:26:02  <Bjarni> we can always hope for interesting replies
17:28:06  <ln-> would you mind uppercasing e.g. "application support", now it doesn't stand out as a path name, just random words.
17:29:15  <ln-> and i vote for placing screenshots in ~/Documents/OpenTTD, most other stuff in ~/Application Support/OpenTTD
17:29:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r11711 /trunk/src/ (fios.h functions.h intro_gui.cpp main_gui.cpp misc_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Name the Save Load Dialog Mode enum
17:31:11  <Bjarni> ln-: done
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17:34:04  <Belugas> nice poll, Bjarni, well written :)
17:35:18  <Bjarni> thanks
17:35:19  <Bjarni> I think so too
17:35:37  <Bjarni> specially the part where I claim the rights to ignore the result :P
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17:37:28  <Belugas> yeah :D
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17:43:53  <LA[Lord]> so it's like ask their opinion but do whatever you like? :D
17:45:32  <pv2b> ln-: what about savegames?
17:45:47  <pv2b> ln-: hell, i think screenshots should go on the desktop -- that's mac convention
17:46:07  <Belugas> or rather see what are the different opinions...
17:46:35  <Belugas> and if something very interesting comes up, well... why not :)
17:46:37  <pv2b> i'll post on the forum a bit later as soon as i finish this.
17:47:17  <pv2b> Belugas: like "clearly, we shguldn't be putting all the burden of saving this on the user computer. we need to work on converting openttd into a web2.0 application. then all of these user-side storage issues will just disappear"
17:47:31  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
17:48:14  <Wolf01> hello
17:48:29  <SmatZ> hello Wolf01
17:48:55  * SmatZ just heard "web2.0" buzzword :-x
17:49:03  <Belugas> pv2b : you are strange man...
17:49:17  <pv2b> Belugas: i meant that as a joke. *<:-)
17:49:25  <Wolf01> hi Belugas, had a nice xmas?
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17:49:58  <Belugas> still trying to digest all the good food i've had on my plate, Wolf01 :)  thanks and you?
17:51:17  <Wolf01> yes, some pain in the back thanks to stupid weather, a lot of money spent and the good "lasagne" of my grandmother :)
17:51:17  *** LA[Lord] [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox]]
17:51:44  <Bjarni>  <LA[Lord]> so it's like ask their opinion but do whatever you like? :D <-- it's a guideline. If everybody decides on something then it could be the solution. If 70% says the same but somebody brings up a really good argument telling why it's a bad idea then it's a bad idea
17:51:53  <Bjarni> bahh
17:51:55  <Bjarni> he left
17:52:11  <Bjarni> anyway nobody claims the majority to be right
17:52:31  <pv2b> Bjarni: that's how democracy should work. it'd eliminiate so much stupidity in government.
17:52:41  <Bjarni> if we have a poll where the result is that 2+2=5 it wouldn't make it right just because the majority says so
17:53:26  <Belugas> mmhhh...  a real italian lasagna :D  I'm ready to go eating again ;)
17:53:36  <Bjarni> democracy is a poor type of government but we use it because we lack something better
17:54:35  <Bjarni> dictatorship could be the best one if the people in charge would do the right things but usually they don't and then it ends up being a really bad type of government
17:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's what happened with "communism"
17:55:19  <Bjarni> I mean if you are elected for life then you don't have to think about the next election and you can plan far into the future... something that's rare in democracy where most politicians plans for the next election
17:55:27  *** kbrooks [] has joined #openttd
17:55:40  <kbrooks> hi
17:55:47  <SmatZ> I don't think communism was bad, but it doesn't motivate people to do their best / at least something good :(
17:55:54  <kbrooks> What's up?
17:56:19  <SmatZ> kbrooks:  nothing, really
17:56:29  <Bjarni> Communism didn't give people benefits for being productive so they stopped being productive
17:56:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is true, but that is not the ultimate reason why communism failed
17:56:54  <kbrooks> # there you go
17:57:23  <Bjarni> kind of like the idea where every citizen should get a paycheck and then they can work on what they want.... now how many would work full time in a system like that?
17:57:33  <kbrooks> Bjarni, none
17:57:47  <Bjarni> I think so too
17:58:10  <Bjarni> however there are still some people considering this to be the ultimate solution
17:58:19  <kbrooks> Bjarni, why wouldn't i have the incentive to work full time?
17:58:31  <pv2b> Bjarni: we shouldn'gt have to work full time in todays' society with so much automation
17:58:38  <kbrooks> Bjarni, with the "paycheck" thing
17:58:44  <pv2b> Bjarni: the only reason everybody mostly owrks full time is because of inefficiencies
17:59:05  <kbrooks> Bjarni, would you like to answer my question?
17:59:09  <Bjarni> however those people also claims that we should accept everybody nomatter what political views they have AND they will not allow people to disagree with them
17:59:10  <SmatZ> kbrooks: youtube video codec isn't really suited for ottd graphics
17:59:22  <pv2b> unfortunately, the communist systme didn't really give anybody any incentive to be efficient either, and the time wasn't really ripe for lower working hours either
17:59:57  <Bjarni> "I will not talk to you because I will talk to everybody and I think that you don't want to do that"
18:00:55  <Bjarni>  <kbrooks> Bjarni, would you like to answer my question? <--- it's not that I don't want to do that... I can't
18:01:11  <kbrooks> Bjarni, why not?
18:01:28  <kbrooks> SmatZ, yeah, i notice that
18:01:50  <SmatZ> I think the mayor problem is that people had advantages when they were in the communist party, when they informed the police about somebody doing something "agains the country" etc.
18:02:01  <SmatZ> but now, we have democracy, and this didn't change a lot
18:02:57  <SmatZ> still there are people who are politics because they will have more success in their business this way (know people, have the chance to change laws, ...)
18:03:24  <Bjarni> we have a word for politicians like that
18:03:24  <SmatZ> and now, cameras are "everywhere" - the state doesn't need any informers -
18:03:48  <SmatZ> yes, partially they are called 'lobbists'
18:04:13  <SmatZ> lobbism = new word for bribing
18:04:17  <Bjarni> I meant politicians being in politics because they can get more power/make more money than they could otherwise
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18:04:54  *** dihedral_ is now known as dihedral
18:05:17  <dihedral> :-)
18:05:32  <kbrooks> blah ......
18:05:57  <dihedral> are you talking down on my smily?
18:06:26  <kbrooks> dihedral, no, on politics
18:06:32  <SmatZ> :-)
18:06:37  <dihedral> good answer
18:06:48  *** peter__ [~petern@] has joined #openttd
18:06:52  <kbrooks> i don't like the nature of politics
18:07:18  <Bjarni> The worst kind of politicians are those going into politics because their dad did and then they copy their politics... this means that they can't make compromises because you can make compromises when it comes to your political view, but not when you are following somebody else's political views
18:07:33  <dihedral> you will not like it if i told you that your sentence just was political :-)
18:07:35  <pv2b> any developer online with a windows machine? i need to see that my patch still works a. on a little-endian machine and b. on sometihng else than gcc. (it should, but i want to make sure)
18:08:06  <dihedral> what kind of patch is it?
18:08:06  <kbrooks> dihedral, that's your opinion
18:08:15  <SmatZ> Bjarni: or they try to be better and more famous than their dad - Bush maybe?
18:08:18  <dihedral> ah - and again politics :-P
18:08:23  <pv2b> dihedral: a small refactoring that clarifies a part of the network protocol.
18:08:30  <pv2b> dihedral: zero functional difference.
18:08:31  <kbrooks> dihedral, ... but maybe my sentence was political (including this one?)
18:08:42  <dihedral> nope
18:08:58  <dihedral> Bjarni: did you already create the poll?
18:09:03  <Bjarni> yes
18:09:39  <Bjarni> <SmatZ> Bjarni: or they try to be better and more famous than their dad - Bush maybe? <-- actually I was thinking about some local politicians but Bush is a candidate for this as well
18:10:17  <Bjarni> worst argument I ever heard during an election campaign "vote for me because you know my father"
18:10:23  <Bjarni> one guy actually said this
18:10:51  <pv2b> Bjarni: actually a semivalid argument
18:10:59  <pv2b> Bjarni: disclose your influences, disclose yourself
18:11:01  <SmatZ> :)
18:11:20  <Bjarni> well... might be good if he said anything else as well
18:11:25  <pv2b> it's probably one of the more honest campaign arguments you cna make
18:12:02  <Bjarni> what happened to "if I get elected I will try to do this and this"?
18:12:10  <SmatZ> Bjarni: one politic here had a billboard with his photo and somthing like "I look siliar like politic A, and my name is the same as of politic B" (the sentence was written in a funny way, but still :)
18:12:11  <pv2b> Bjarni: that's just bullshit anyway
18:12:11  <Bjarni> and then actually do it
18:12:26  <Wolf01> Bjarni, what about adding a sort by cargo name to vehicle building windows?
18:12:50  <SmatZ> actually, he died maybe one month ago... he was fixing his car and somebody crashed him :-x
18:12:56  <Bjarni> <pv2b> Bjarni: that's just bullshit anyway <-- during last election only one party didn't change politics during the election and now they are actually doing what they claimed to do during the election
18:13:14  <pv2b> Bjarni: nice. are their policies sane?
18:13:23  <SmatZ> "and now they are actually doing what they claimed to do during the election" unbelievable!
18:13:45  <Bjarni> it's the 3rd largest party in the country so they can actually do stuff
18:13:57  <pv2b> Bjarni: which party?
18:14:06  <Bjarni> DF
18:14:46  <pv2b> Bjarni: that's a sad reflection of politics, that they're your most respectable political party *<:-/
18:15:11  <Bjarni> huh?
18:15:32  <Bjarni> have you ever listened to what they say themselves?
18:16:08  <pv2b> Bjarni: i mean, respectible in the sense of being honest about what they want and what their politics are
18:16:13  <Bjarni> there is a large group of specially Swedish journalists who wants to claim stuff about them that they never say themselves and never tries to do
18:16:14  <pv2b> Bjarni: not in the sense of having sane policy
18:16:34  <Bjarni> I don't know why specially the Swedish media flames them
18:19:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> am i reading this correctly that grfs use \r (0x0D) as newline character internally?
18:20:43  <dihedral> that sounds like the old mac os
18:20:44  <pv2b> Bjarni: sure. i've been to their web site. sounds like pretty much the same fare sd put out on their site here in sweden.
18:21:51  <dihedral> !dihedral
18:22:04  <dihedral> wrong channel :-P
18:22:22  <pv2b> dihedral: you have your own trigger? *<:-)
18:22:37  <dihedral> aye - on openttdcoop
18:23:16  * Bjarni shoots dihedral
18:23:21  <dihedral> ??
18:23:22  <Bjarni> here I have the trigger
18:23:25  <pv2b> anyway, any developer online who uses a windows machine to develop on to test a patch?
18:23:26  <dihedral> LOL
18:23:49  <Bjarni> any developer who use windows..... kind of hard to find
18:24:02  <pv2b> Bjarni: who builds your windows binaries then?
18:24:29  <Bjarni> cross compile xD
18:24:38  <pv2b> all right *<:-)
18:24:44  <SmatZ> pv2b: a compile farm does all this compiling :)
18:24:49  <pv2b> in that case, anyone with a little-endian machine with access to that compiler? *<;-)
18:25:01  <SmatZ> pv2b: what changes did you do?
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18:25:20  <Bjarni> I thought you only added comments
18:25:37  <pv2b> yeah, i thought so too, but i found a way to make the code a lot clearer.
18:25:41  <Bjarni> that's hardly an issue that needs testing on all platforms
18:25:50  <pv2b> no, i just want to make sure i don't break little-endian machines
18:25:56  <peter__> rm *.cpp D:
18:26:24  <Bjarni> rm -fr *
18:26:33  <Bjarni> that should remove all the buggy code
18:27:19  <tokai> peter__: don't forget *.hpp :)
18:27:28  <pv2b> actually openttd uses *.h
18:27:33  <SmatZ> +	 * (port, little-endian) for each pair
18:27:48  <pv2b> SmatZ: that's correct, verified using packet sniffer
18:27:52  <SmatZ> :-x
18:28:06  *** |Jeroen| [] has joined #openttd
18:28:20  <pv2b> everything is sent using the native protocol byte order (little endian) except the ip adress which is sent using the network byte order
18:29:02  <Bjarni> Vocaloid is NOT A HENTAI GAME <--- LOL. It's a voice synthesiser :D
18:29:41  <Bjarni> somebody actually claimed it to be not only a game, but a hentai game.... sometimes the internet scares me
18:30:24  <Gonozal_VIII> only sometimes?
18:31:16  <Bjarni> that depends on what I'm looking at
18:31:51  <Bjarni> if I'm reading or anything else where regular users can say stuff then yes
18:32:06  <Bjarni> if it's something like where only sane people have write access then no
18:32:40  <Gonozal_VIII> your definition of sane includes sacro?
18:32:43  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
18:32:47  <peter__> meh
18:33:05  <Bjarni> last time I checked Sacro lacked write permission to
18:34:43  <dihedral> touch workes for me :-P
18:35:40  <peter__> Bjarni, crap, he's hacked it
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18:42:35  <ln-> 19:45 < pv2b> ln-: what about savegames?  <-- well.. generally you don't copy them out of the dir, so it could be Application Support.
18:42:51  <ln-> also you cannot open savegames directly from Finder
18:44:16  <pv2b> ln-: well, depends who you are. you might want to bring savegames with you on a usb stick or email them. depends what your usage scenarios are
18:44:31  <pv2b> and opening savegames from the finder should be relatively easy to do
18:46:33  <pv2b> is this directory move t hing planned for 0.6?
18:46:36  <pv2b> or for later versions?
18:46:59  <dihedral> yes - but ~/Library/Application Support will confuse people more
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18:47:19  <ln-> eeexcellent
18:48:06  <dihedral> pv2b not planned at all i think
18:48:34  <Bjarni> not planned at all but dihedral wants me to move it
18:48:46  <dihedral> may i rephrase that
18:48:56  <Bjarni> and if it's moved then it's best that it's moved before it is ever released in a stable release
18:49:10  <pv2b> i agree
18:49:13  <Bjarni> so if it's moved then it's planned for 0.6.0
18:49:15  <dihedral> dihedral would appreciate it, if it were moved to ~/Library to 'blend in' a little more
18:49:30  <dihedral> but in no way want's to 'request' anything :-)
18:49:34  <ln-> i vote for c:\openttd
18:49:44  * Bjarni slaps ln-
18:49:48  <Bjarni> mac users only
18:49:50  <Gonozal_VIII> pop up a window where you can select where to save stuff on first start?
18:49:56  <pv2b> ln-: /C:\OPENTTD
18:49:57  * dihedral helps Bjarni with the slapping
18:49:57  <pv2b> *<:D
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18:50:14  <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: uh, no. annoying users is not a good idea.
18:50:20  <Bjarni> and.... if you claim something like that you aren't a mac user
18:50:27  <Bjarni> you could be a mac owner, but not a mac user
18:50:38  <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: just default to ~/Documents/OpenTTD and actually remember where the user goes between sessions
18:50:44  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: that's the most confusing solution of all.
18:51:03  <pv2b> i had some files in another directory for some debug stuff and openttd wouldn't remember where i last opened stuff
18:51:20  <pv2b> Bjarni: oh, btw, the old "free space" bug is still there in the latest 0.6.0-beta2 binary build
18:51:27  <pv2b> Bjarni: (0 bytes free)
18:51:39  <Bjarni> only on 10.3.9
18:51:42  <Bjarni> (I hope)
18:51:44  <pv2b> i'm on 10.4.9
18:51:46  <Gonozal_VIII> most confusing... why?
18:51:47  <pv2b> or not .9
18:51:51  <pv2b> 10.4.11
18:52:06  <Bjarni> PPC?
18:52:12  <pv2b> ppc.
18:52:17  <pv2b> oh
18:52:18  <pv2b> never mind
18:52:22  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: what would you answer to such popup?
18:52:24  <pv2b> i lied... i launched the 0.5 by misteake
18:52:32  <Bjarni> ...
18:52:36  <Gonozal_VIII> select the path...
18:52:53  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: which path?
18:53:02  <pv2b> bbl. food.
18:53:09  <pv2b> sorry for scaring you like that Bjarni *<:-)
18:53:13  <Gonozal_VIII> where the cfg and savegames and so on should be saved...
18:53:31  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: and what path would that be?
18:53:40  <Bjarni> pv2b: I wasn't scared on behalf of OpenTTD... I was scared that user stupidity had struck you as well
18:53:46  <Gonozal_VIII> for me it would be the game dir
18:53:51  <Bjarni> turns out that was the case :(
18:54:26  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: where is the game dir?
18:54:47  <Gonozal_VIII> ? that doesn't matter
18:54:59  <Bjarni> heh... two votes so far and they don't even agree
18:55:39  <Bjarni> no replies either
18:55:47  <Bjarni> so far it's useless :/
18:55:59  * Bjarni gives it some more time
18:56:00  <Bjarni> bbl
18:56:07  <hylje>
18:56:16  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: why ask at all if it doesn't matter?
18:56:42  *** Ikarus-70 [] has joined #openttd
18:56:47  <Ikarus-70> hi
18:56:49  <Gonozal_VIII> :S
18:56:53  <SmatZ> :-D
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18:57:29  <Gonozal_VIII> E:\Spiele\OpenTTD\OpenTTD 11703 <-- well, that's the gamedir for me atm
18:57:37  <SmatZ> 4chan... the place where weird and scary people meet with sexual deviants :-p
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18:58:30  <Ikarus-70> I am still suffering this 0.6.0 always looses connection problem
18:59:02  <ln-> have you seen a doctor about it?
18:59:25  <Ikarus-70> I hope that the best doctor for it is here^^
18:59:26  <Gonozal_VIII> the game could look in that dir for a textfile called path or something and if it doesn't exist ask the user for the path
18:59:38  <hylje> llama
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19:00:52  <ln-> Gonozal_VIII: and that would be terribly confusing.
19:01:07  <Gonozal_VIII> erm... why?
19:02:16  <ln-> does your web browser ask you where to save its settings?
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19:04:19  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't care about where the browser saves its settings but i care where my savegames are
19:05:05  <Belugas> somehow, you can view ottd as a savegame browser ^_^
19:05:16  <dihedral> :-P
19:06:22  * Belugas wonders about usefullness of user-defined-save-space upon installation or first use or whatever
19:06:40  <Belugas> probably a sterile idea after all..
19:06:52  <Belugas> futile, at least...
19:07:22  <dihedral> openttd.cfg section [misc] :-P
19:07:41  <Gonozal_VIII> you can't save in the cfg where to save the cfg^^
19:07:57  <Belugas> [misc]... no way... garbage collection
19:10:18  <SmatZ> :-D
19:11:09  *** |Bastiaan| [] has quit [Quit: KVIrc 3.2.6 Anomalies]
19:16:46  <kyevan> ln-: Actually, many web browsers DO ask, or at least allow you to change it in the config pannels :P
19:16:50  <pv2b> Bjarni: well, i am mostly a user, even if i code sometimes *<:-)
19:17:32  <pv2b> kyevan: 1. firefox. 2.???
19:17:46  *** LA[Lord] [] has joined #openttd
19:18:00  <Gonozal_VIII> what else would you need except firefox?
19:18:19  <pv2b> i mean, what else lets you choose where to keep settings?
19:18:24  <kyevan> Gonozal_VIII: A browser that can run more than ten minutes without leaking memory to the point of needing a reboot :P
19:18:34  <pv2b> firefox has this annoying thing with lock files "omg my settings are locked please choose a profile" thing
19:18:40  <Gonozal_VIII> that's been fixed years ago
19:19:14  <pv2b> i mean, choosing firefox from the ages where that was neccessary to serve as an ideal for how openttd should work is just... no
19:19:15  <kyevan> Also, Opera is closer in rendering to the mobile and embedded Opera varients, for obvious reasons.
19:19:51  *** Ikarus-70 [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
19:20:03  <dihedral> [20:07]	<Gonozal_VIII>	you can't save in the cfg where to save the cfg^^ <--- that was the pun
19:20:21  <pv2b> you can save where to save the cfg in the cfg
19:20:29  <pv2b> you just have to ask the user on startup where the cfg is
19:23:55  <dihedral> defeats the mentioned purpose
19:27:04  <kyevan> But..
19:27:13  <kyevan> Does it matter where the config is saved?
19:27:13  <Gonozal_VIII> but!
19:27:45  <kyevan> Telling it where to put the save files for games, by default, is more like letting you specify the defaut download directory.
19:27:57  <Gonozal_VIII> it seems to matter for mac users (forum)
19:29:21  <dihedral> [20:27]	<Gonozal_VIII>	but! <--- butt :-)
19:30:33  <kyevan> You can't please mac users without driving everyone else crazy.
19:30:47  <Bjarni> damn
19:30:50  <kyevan> Macs, and most of their users, are all about consitancy.
19:30:55  <Bjarni> how did you figure that out?
19:31:21  <kyevan> It's a nice thing, really, unless you're trying to write software that works on more than just macs :P
19:33:57  <Belugas> [14:36] <kyevan> You can't please mac users without driving everyone else crazy.  <--- yes you can. it's called compiler switchs (or something like that)
19:33:57  <Bjarni> this issue will not even affect other platforms
19:33:57  <Bjarni> it's about what to put in a string that only affects OSX
19:34:54  <kyevan> Bjarni: Oh, and you want to keep a proper Aqua interface and somethign that works everywhere in sync? OpenTTD can get away with the built-in thing, because it's a game, but most things can't
19:35:36  * Belugas thinks this whole conversation looks like some shed-painting stuff that Tron explained once...
19:36:27  <Belugas> ho... sorry... bike-shed-painting :D
19:37:03  <peter__> HEY HEY HEY
19:37:11  * peter__ ponders painting his bike shed
19:37:41  <peter__> (except that it's wet and dark, but never mind)
19:37:51  * Belugas is surprised! he does not remember seeen any bike shed on peter__'s garden ;)
19:38:22  <Belugas> -seeen +seeing
19:43:20  <kyevan> Nothin's commin' past that door! Not hell, not water, not the letter G!
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19:46:05  <Bjarni> bike-shed painting?
19:47:56  <Bjarni> anyway I just posted this on the forum to settle the argument once and for all (I hope). I can live with any of the solutions if needed
19:48:09  <Bjarni> but I don't want people complaining all the time
19:50:20  <pv2b> Bjarni: my opinion on the shade of the bike shed posted.
19:54:16  <ln->
19:55:09  <Gonozal_VIII> yay queen
19:56:25  <Wolf01> looooooooool
19:56:30  <pv2b> ln-: flash! ...aa-aaaaah!!!
19:56:36  <pv2b> saviour of the universe!
19:56:44  <pv2b> or something.
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19:57:08  <pv2b> maybe wrong flash though.
19:57:45  <peter__> there is only one flash
19:59:01  <Gonozal_VIII> there's only one queen!
19:59:01  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
19:59:09  <peter__> best sound track ever, of course
19:59:20  <Wolf01> [20:59:08] <Gonozal_VIII> there's only one queen! <- freddy mercury
20:00:15  <pv2b> kyevan: also, you can satisfy mac users on the file plaacement front without driving anybody else. in fact, you could make everybody else very happy by following similar standards.
20:00:40  <pv2b> kyevan:
20:02:39  <Bjarni> dihedral: now see what you started.... now according to the forum we should alter how the path stuff works on all platforms >_<
20:02:46  <pavel1269> wow, i almost prayed for fix whats at r11697, i thought that was due to MSVS :))
20:03:59  <dihedral> Bjarni: ill respond to it...
20:04:31  * Bjarni is not in the mood for coding anything that complex
20:04:38  <Bjarni> and it's likely that I never will be
20:05:59  <kyevan> pv2b: File placement is fairly easy, yes.
20:06:57  <kyevan> Windows, <User Dir>/My Documents/<Program Name>, Unixes, ~/.<Program Name>, Macs have their library directory, which I forget the exact structure of, butanyway.
20:07:09  <pv2b> yeah.
20:07:21  <kyevan> UIs, though, and where data files go, not really.
20:07:24  <pv2b> either way there is a seperation between user data and application data.
20:07:38  <kyevan> You can't even please every unixer on application data :P
20:07:49  <pv2b> bah. /usr/share and ~/.openttd *<;-)
20:07:56  <pv2b> if they don't accept that they can diaf
20:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause3>
20:08:28  <kyevan> pv2b: Oh? What if the data's not installed by the package manager, like in OTTD's case?
20:08:30  <Gonozal_VIII> everything in the game dir on every os, discussion closed^^
20:08:34  <kyevan> /usr/local/share/
20:08:41  <pv2b> kyevan: well, that's waht i meant.
20:08:46  <kyevan> Gonozal_VIII: That's horrible and evil and can not work.
20:08:57  *** skidd13 [] has joined #openttd
20:08:59  <pv2b> kyevan: /usr/local/sharei f manual install, /usr/share if packaged install.
20:08:59  *** HerzogDeXtE1 [] has joined #openttd
20:09:11  <kyevan> Package managers install to /usr/, nothing manualy goes there except in /usr/local/
20:09:48  <Gonozal_VIII> [21:08:46] kyevan: Gonozal_VIII: That's horrible and evil and can not work. <-- so that's a yes then?
20:09:58  <pv2b> i should investigate how hard it would be to hack together a patch to do what i suggest.
20:10:01  <kyevan> And on OS X, that requires breaking the illusion that bundles are one file
20:10:09  <pv2b> kyevan: nah
20:10:21  <pv2b> kyevan: ~?/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD
20:10:32  <kyevan> Eh, true
20:10:39  <Bjarni> this is just great
20:10:48  <Bjarni> now there is one vote on each option :s
20:10:52  <kyevan> but don't put it in ~/ only, the generic files probably belong in the shared library :P
20:11:05  <dihedral> i am against Application Support
20:11:07  <pv2b> Bjarni: 1.5 on ~/L/AS
20:11:40  <kyevan> Honestly, the best solution is have a list of paths it looks in :P
20:11:44  <pv2b> hey, i think i know how this will end up. however whoever codes it makes it *<;-)
20:12:04  <kyevan> For example, on OS X, in the bundel, in /Library/ somewhere, in the ~/Library/ equivelent
20:12:11  <Gonozal_VIII> a text file named "path.txt" in the gamedir :-)
20:12:25  <pv2b> kyevan: that's my suggestion i wrote on the forum too
20:12:27  <Bjarni> it already has a bunch of places to look for files. The question is where the game should place files
20:12:34  <kyevan> Then define a sane override order :)
20:12:49  <pv2b> Bjarni: maybe you could describe how it works now?
20:12:55  <kyevan> Place it in the user's choice, of course >_>
20:13:14  <kyevan> Defaulting to a position in the user directory somewhere.
20:13:28  <pv2b> no. users should not be allowed to choose
20:13:30  <pv2b> users are bloody idiots
20:13:35  <kyevan> (Except on install, where it probably goes in the global thing)
20:14:15  <kyevan> pv2b: If you can't choose, that makes things like running two servers or a server and a client in one user account nearly impossible
20:14:20  *** Zahl [] has joined #openttd
20:14:31  <pv2b> okay. true.
20:14:45  <pv2b> so precede the search path with .
20:15:19  <kyevan> Or give each install a prefix for autocreated files, and save to the same dir
20:15:29  <kyevan> for example, foo_autosave01 and bar_autosave01
20:15:50  <kyevan> defaulting to the empty string :P
20:15:58  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:16:20  <dihedral> guys - it's just to make blend in a little more to more or less standard os x behavior
20:16:49  <kyevan> Anyway, I'm just a user and occasional server op, not really a developer.
20:16:50  <pv2b> kyevan: eh. no. that's just a poor reimplementation of directories
20:17:00  <kyevan> C and ++ make my head hurt
20:17:17  <pv2b> c++ can make anybody's head hurt if used in the right way.
20:17:22  <kyevan> (C++ isn't any better than C, because it hadn't been incremented when it was returned :P)
20:17:36  <dihedral> flamers...
20:17:40  <pv2b> yeah if you think about it like that, C is actually better than C++
20:17:40  <kyevan> Java's pretty horrible, but at least it's MOSTLY objects :P
20:17:42  <LA[Lord]> I have got good new for 8bpp graphics replacement project...we've got Leppka's Water
20:17:55  <pv2b> because C++ is being incremented, and C is already incremented by C++
20:17:59  <Gonozal_VIII> java is cool
20:18:01  <Belugas> youhoyu!
20:18:06  <pv2b> so C == C++ + 1
20:18:17  * Belugas youhoued at LA[Lord] good news...
20:18:27  <kyevan> pv2b: that's the same as ++C
20:18:30  <kyevan> I think.
20:18:40  <Gonozal_VIII> yay water
20:18:45  * pv2b prefers laguages such as objective c and python.
20:18:51  <Belugas> Delphi!
20:18:53  <LA[Lord]> Belugas, that means that you have to include BigBB's patch for missing shores
20:19:00  <LA[Lord]> someday
20:19:09  <kyevan> Belugas: Might as well go all the way and use Visual Basic.
20:19:18  <Belugas> no kidding... as if i was not aware of that, LA[Lord] ;)
20:19:18  <pv2b> visual basic is just crap
20:19:21  <pv2b> delphi is funny
20:19:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> seems i presented my revolutionary concept in the wrong time...
20:19:33  <pv2b> because of its obscurity and its actual relative noncrapness
20:19:34  <Belugas> Visual Basic is insanity
20:19:39  <LA[Lord]> lol
20:20:03  <pv2b> once you get past the fact that it's fucking pascal, i bet delphi isn't half bad actually
20:20:04  <kyevan> Belugas: But if you're going to use a Windows-only tool, might as well use the one that puts money in MS's pockets directly.
20:20:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> seems the channel is busy with irrelevant flamewars of programming languages
20:20:07  <Belugas> Delphi is my tool at work.  and as a band sang a long time ago: "I Know What I Like"
20:20:34  <Gonozal_VIII> oooh that link wasn't about the path thing
20:20:44  <kyevan> Eddi|zuHause3: It's cold outside, the flamewars keep me toasty warm :)
20:21:22  <Belugas> pv2b, Delphi is the tool.  The language is Object Pascal
20:21:51  <Belugas> And fucking is not how I would describe neither Pascal or its obejct flavor
20:21:53  <Belugas> by far not
20:21:59  <Gonozal_VIII> prof says eiffel is best
20:21:59  <pv2b> Belugas: delphi = gcc+emacs. object pascal = c++. right.
20:22:01  <kyevan> Delphi's Windows-only, though, so it could be the best tool in the world and fail instantly
20:22:22  <pv2b> Belugas: i didn't use "fucking" to say it was bad. just as an emphatical *<:-)
20:22:30  <Belugas> ho..
20:22:33  <kyevan> Though I think there was a somewhat-working Free replacement.
20:22:45  <pv2b> wasn't there something called Kylix?
20:22:50  <Belugas> american, aren't you, pv2b?
20:22:52  <pv2b> which was basically delphi for linux? or did i misunderstood.
20:22:55  <pv2b> Belugas: swedish.
20:23:00  <Belugas> fooled me :)
20:23:04  <kyevan> Sure, but Kylix... didn't exactly work well.
20:23:53  <kyevan> Ah, here it is
20:23:54  <kyevan>
20:24:20  <kyevan> One thing I will say, is that Delphi is a fun word to say :P
20:24:38  <pv2b> yeah, i've heard about fp. i just kinda... don't really care for pascal *<:-)
20:24:52  <pv2b> i mean, it's not that pascal is bad, it's because it's different.
20:25:04  <Belugas> you should, if you want to have some good programming reflexes
20:25:11  <kyevan> And yet you like Python?
20:25:13  <Belugas> i love the structure it imposes on you
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20:25:26  <pv2b> i like python because it's actually pretty freeform
20:25:34  * kyevan spent enough time in whitespace hell...
20:25:46  <pv2b> once you get past the fact that you have to keep your indentation properly. (which you should do anyway in any language)
20:25:51  <kyevan> I like Ruby though, which is fairly similar in many respects
20:25:58  <kyevan> pv2b: Sure, I keep my indentation nice
20:26:08  <kyevan> But you screw up in one place and python explode.
20:26:17  <pv2b> ruby isn't half bad either. it's like perl and python's crazy japanese cousin.
20:26:39  <pv2b> i like the way you can generate functions inline with the pipe syntax
20:26:55  <pv2b> and actually use it all the time for creating your own iteration constructs. it's quite mad *<:-)
20:26:59  <kyevan> Only crazy japanese cousins are unlikely for anyone who isn't japanese :P
20:27:09  <dihedral> pvz: your answer in the forums is kinda missing the asked question
20:27:30  <pv2b> dihedral: "where should the files be?" i think i answered that.
20:27:52  <kyevan> Well, on your hard drive, DUH.
20:28:11  <pv2b> kyevan: i have a flash based computer, you insentitive clod.
20:28:13  <pv2b> (well, not really.)
20:28:38  <Bjarni> <pv2b> Bjarni: maybe you could describe how it works now? <-- well... it has a lot of paths to check for files. Highest priority is files next to the bundle (think old style placement), then ~/Library/OpenTTD then inside the bundle. It looks in more locations that I can't remember, something like /usr/local... so it works with the default linux paths as well (I think... didn't check right now)
20:28:41  <kyevan> s/hard drive/main storage device/
20:28:44  <dihedral> ill explain in a sec
20:29:00  <pv2b> Bjarni: that's pretty close to the system i suggest
20:29:13  <pv2b> Bjarni: except screenshots->desktop and savegames->documents/openttd
20:29:34  <kyevan> Yeh, those changes seem fairly maclike.
20:30:03  <Bjarni> except you tell that it should write in different dirs. Currently if there is a file called openttd.cfg next to the bundle it writes all files next to the bundle. If not then it writes all files in ~/Documents/OpenTTD
20:30:21  <pv2b> Bjarni: symlinks *<:D
20:30:27  <kyevan> (the ~/Library/ stuff is mostly "DO NOT TOUCH" for 99% of users, so it's not very good to make users look there)
20:30:40  <Bjarni> you want different default locations based on what files you want to save
20:30:53  <Bjarni> kyevan: that's why I picked Documents in the first place
20:30:57  * pv2b actually came up with a sane solution to this which requires practially no code changes. symbolic links!
20:31:16  <kyevan> Does HFS+ support symlinks, though?
20:31:18  <pv2b> sure
20:31:21  <Bjarni> yeah
20:31:21  <kyevan> I think it does, but.
20:31:26  <Bjarni> it's POSIX
20:31:34  <kyevan> Has it always?
20:31:38  <pv2b> the only thing slightly weird with HFS+ is that it's case-insensitive
20:31:40  <pv2b> (but case-preserving)
20:31:49  <pv2b> yeah, symlinks are pretty much a requirement for a sane unix system to work
20:31:52  <kyevan> pv2b: I think that's switchable,a ctually.
20:31:54  <Bjarni> I can't recall OSX ever having links problems
20:32:07  <pv2b> kyevan: i think it is, but then lots of crazy mac stuff brekas
20:32:08  <pv2b> breaks
20:32:14  <kyevan> But, if you do, Mac code breaks horribly.
20:32:17  <kyevan> pv2b: Right :P
20:32:51  * kyevan goes back to driving Gordon Freeman through college)
20:32:56  <Bjarni> you can actually select if your HFS+ should be case sensitive for some reason
20:33:15  <Bjarni> don't ask me why it's an option you have to select while formatting a drive....
20:33:21  <kyevan> (I got The Sims 2: University for christmas, and somehow wound up creating a Gordon Freeman sim...)
20:33:24  <pv2b> Bjarni: isn't ther esomething equiv to tune2fs?
20:33:55  <Bjarni> there is a lot of stuff available if you know it
20:34:23  <kyevan> Has fuse been ported to OS X, by any chance?
20:34:25  <pv2b> kyevan: yeah
20:34:31  <SpComb> Python!
20:34:39  <pv2b> Bjarni: oh, imagine if you take a case-sensitive volume, and make it case-insensitive
20:34:56  <kyevan> I wish someone would port it to windows... I needs mah sshfs!)
20:34:57  <pv2b> Bjarni: imagine if you have the two files "Lollerskates.txt" and "LOLLERSKATES.TXT" on it.
20:35:02  <pv2b> Bjarni: stuff tends to break.
20:35:13  <kyevan> pv2b: Then you need to go die
20:35:32  <Bjarni> yeah
20:35:36  <kyevan> Having files that differ only in case is TERRIBLE practice, even on case-sensitive file systems :P
20:35:43  <Bjarni> having a file called LOLLERSKATES.TXT....
20:35:45  <Bjarni> geek :P
20:35:53  <kyevan> That too :P
20:36:00  <pv2b> i've seen some software that comes with a "makefile" and a "Makefile"
20:36:06  <SpComb> oletettavas[B0(
20:36:15  <SpComb> grawh
20:36:57  <Gonozal_VIII> it could just attach (1) to the files like ff does when you download stuff with the same name
20:37:22  <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: and break file extentions.
20:37:36  <pv2b> and breaking other hardcoded paths.
20:37:40  <pv2b> it's not trivial.
20:37:40  <Gonozal_VIII> before the .
20:38:06  <Gonozal_VIII> download.file and download(1).file
20:38:07  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
20:38:27  <pv2b> that works as long as nothing has a hardcoded path to that.
20:39:18  <Bjarni> it's damn annoying to use something that can decide to avoid naming conflict by adding .1 without telling you
20:39:21  <Bjarni> I tried that once
20:39:31  <Bjarni> I ended up with .png and .png.1
20:40:02  <Bjarni> it didn't tell me in the first place but when I opened the newest file I opened an old one and was like "wtf"
20:40:11  <Bjarni> until I realised what had happened
20:40:43  <Bjarni> funny thing is that I had to remove the .1 before the app would accept the file again >_<
20:41:07  <Bjarni> now all free software is as good as OpenTTD
20:41:12  <Gonozal_VIII> that's stupid^^
20:41:28  <Bjarni> yeah
20:41:35  <Bjarni> specially because it didn't tell me
20:41:41  <Bjarni> it just did this on it's own
20:42:01  <Bjarni> bbl
20:42:17  <Gonozal_VIII> the (1) stuff also happens without telling but it doesn't change the filetype
20:42:40  <pv2b> the big diff is that changing the filesystem might change some file deep in the system you don't even know about
20:43:46  <Gonozal_VIII> it could generate a log of the resolved conflicts and open it after it's finished
20:44:45  *** lolman [~lolman@adsl-87-102-80-216.karoo.KCOM.COM] has joined #openttd
20:44:58  <pv2b> true.
20:45:11  <pv2b> not an insurmountable problem then. still not worth botherering with.
20:46:11  *** Deathmaker [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:48:50  <LA[Lord]> it seems I've got a problem....I can't draw 8bpp stuff :(
20:49:12  <Gonozal_VIII> why?
20:50:06  <LA[Lord]> dunno, they don't come out nice...
20:50:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: maedhros * r11712 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r9315): Add more house string id ranges to MapGRFStringID so NewGRFs use the proper string ids.
20:50:21  <Belugas> you have to respect the pallette, LA[Lord]
20:50:23  <Belugas> very importnat
20:50:24  <Gonozal_VIII> you have to change the magnification often
20:50:57  <Gonozal_VIII> draw some pixel at 8x, go back to 1x and look at it, zoom back in...
20:51:25  <LA[Lord]> nono I know that...I just don't know how to draw nice things...
20:51:40  <Belugas> ask skidd13 some lessons ;)
20:51:47  <Gonozal_VIII> like i said... zoom around a lot
20:51:52  <LA[Lord]> this should be a lighthouse
20:51:54  <LA[Lord]>
20:52:07  <Gonozal_VIII> looks like a bottle^^
20:52:09  *** G [] has joined #openttd
20:52:41  <LA[Lord]> lol
20:53:59  * LA[Lord] looks around and sees that Skidd13 is online :P
20:54:13  <skidd13> Hu? Whats up?
20:54:46  <skidd13> looks like a bowling pin to me :D
20:54:51  <LA[Lord]> :d
20:55:03  <Gonozal_VIII> you can also draw it bigger, scale it down and fix everything that doesn't look right
20:55:33  <LA[Lord]> Actually, I had something important to you skidd13 too...wait a mom, I'll try to remember
20:55:35  <Gonozal_VIII> if it's easier for you to draw bigger stuff
20:55:59  <Belugas> search for some real lighthouses, scrutinize them, draw them by hand until you know how they are shaped/constructed
20:56:04  <Belugas> then pixelize your ideas :)
20:56:10  <skidd13> The lightning is ok, but the color is IMO wrong.
20:56:22  <skidd13> Belugas: That is not that easy ;)
20:57:06  <Belugas> ha... well... that's how i do my stuff
20:57:09  <Belugas> but ...
20:57:19  <Belugas> it maybe why i've not released anything :D
20:57:24  <Belugas> 'cause it looks baaaaaad
20:58:48  <LA[Lord]> ok skidd I found it...
20:59:13  <LA[Lord]> I have a next idea for 8bpp replacement project..
20:59:23  <LA[Lord]> but these graphics aen't all yours?
20:59:36  <dihedral> oh my word - women talk too much on the phone
20:59:46  <dihedral> na - drop the 'on the phone' part of that
21:01:57  <SmatZ> Viewed 262213 times ]
21:01:58  <SmatZ> wow
21:02:14  <SmatZ> that's even more that 262144
21:02:24  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
21:02:38  <Gonozal_VIII> great observation
21:02:41  <SmatZ> :-)
21:02:59  <dihedral> pv2b: you were missing the point because it was generally about the folder 'OpenTTD' currently located in ~/Documents, and not about every single file in that folde
21:03:00  <SmatZ> @base 10 2 262144
21:03:00  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 1000000000000000000
21:03:01  <dihedral> \r
21:03:44  <SmatZ> @base 10 2 262213
21:03:44  <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 1000000000001000101
21:03:57  <dihedral> "putting it in ~/Library/Application Support/OpenTTD is probably the best" <-- why on earth then vote for 'other' and write a 5 page comment that concludes to that?
21:05:14  <Gonozal_VIII> you know all powers of 2?
21:05:21  <dihedral> pv2b: the entire section "Other operating systems" can be ditched, because that is not of interest
21:05:26  <dihedral> it was solely about os x
21:05:37  <Belugas> shhhhhh dihedral, calm down.  the guy is entitled to tis opinion
21:05:45  <dihedral> yes
21:05:49  <dihedral> i am not getting at it
21:05:57  <dihedral> i am simply explaining a statement i made earlier on
21:06:25  <dihedral> [21:27]	<dihedral>	pvz: your answer in the forums is kinda missing the asked question
21:06:56  <dihedral> just so it was not a statement thrown into the channel, but explained as to what i meant
21:09:10  <pv2b> dihedral: i disagreed with the question which assumes everything *should* be in the same folder.
21:09:35  <pv2b> dihedral: sometimes you simply can't answer a question directly. have you stopped beating your wife?
21:09:50  <Gonozal_VIII> no
21:09:55  <Gonozal_VIII> see, direct answer
21:10:07  *** skidd13 [] has left #openttd [quit:Ping timeout: Hmm ping sucks :D]
21:10:18  <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: true, but the implications that raises can be unintentional.
21:10:33  <dihedral> but you cut it down to one statement, which made clear (as far as i understood it) that ~/Library/Application Support/ was your choice for 'best' place
21:10:36  <ln-> Bjarni: is all the stuff inside the bundle now?
21:10:44  *** DeGhost [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:10:51  <pv2b> dihedral: 'best' place, but i don't think savegames and screenshots should go in there
21:11:40  <dihedral> i stopped beating my wife - i started hitting my dog now
21:11:53  <dihedral> nobody asked for the second part of that
21:11:57  <dihedral> :-P
21:12:08  <dihedral> ok - i am splitting hairs on that one
21:13:41  <pv2b> so yeah, put everythign in application support, except for the savegames and the screenshots
21:13:47  <pv2b> and make it look in the global library too
21:13:49  <pv2b> and i'm happy *<:-)
21:14:33  <dihedral> again - that was not the point of Bjarni's question :-P (yes - i know - you disagree with the entire question)
21:16:26  <joosa_> I have something to say
21:16:33  <joosa_> have a beer and relax
21:16:54  <dihedral> i have something to say too
21:17:13  * dihedral slaps joosa for trying to calm him down, where in fact he is calm and relaxed :-P
21:17:21  <dihedral> nah - just kidding :-P
21:17:26  <joosa_> :-D
21:17:49  <dihedral> if dih uses smilies, he is relaxed
21:17:52  <pv2b> also, i don't drink alcohol, you insensitive slod.
21:17:56  <pv2b> *<;-)
21:18:01  <joosa_> I love it when people include the nose in their smilies
21:18:01  <dihedral> LOL
21:18:12  <dihedral> :-------)
21:18:15  <joosa_> :–––––D
21:18:18  *** Stoffe [~mirc@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:18:32  <dihedral> :(THE NOSE)D
21:18:52  <joosa_> but I'm too dunk to take part in the conversatoon in any other level but discussing the noses
21:18:59  <joosa_> dunk indeed
21:20:54  <pv2b> joosa_: it's a habit i picked up many yeaqrs ago
21:21:06  <joosa_> yeaqrs ubdeed
21:21:17  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
21:21:40  <Gonozal_VIII> is there a drunk - english dictionary somewhere?
21:21:41  <pv2b> ubdeed *<:D
21:21:49  <pv2b> joosa_++
21:25:17  <joosa_> nose
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21:25:17  <pv2b> actually i don't use noses for *<:D, i use them for *<:-) etc though.
21:25:17  <joosa_> :++)
21:25:17  <pv2b> i should play some ttd. anyone want to come? *<:-)
21:25:17  <joosa_> me too, but I have difficulties convincing my friends to play
21:25:36  <peter__> that smiley is bloody stupid
21:26:01  *** joosa_ is now known as joosa
21:26:05  <pv2b> peter__: i disagree. it's perfectly festive.
21:26:17  <joosa> :++) is not, however
21:26:23  <pv2b> ah, all right.
21:26:27  <pv2b> :++) makes little sense
21:26:39  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't know what smiley it was supposed to be, i see a * and the rest converts to a guy with a magician hat
21:26:51  <joosa> maybe the hat has a *
21:26:58  <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: tip. the hat is red.
21:27:13  <Gonozal_VIII> aaaah
21:27:31  <peter__> fire capacitators!
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21:28:25  <pv2b> but in order to play, i need ot find a a nice server to play on, and in that case i probably should at least make sure my simple server filterer utility is at least at a useable state
21:29:25  <Belugas> [16:31] <pv2b> peter__: i disagree. it's perfectly festive.   <--- well.. now that you've told us... It reminded me more of a clown than a Santa ;)
21:29:55  <pv2b> that's what you get for using lossy compression
21:30:07  <pv2b> i thought you'd have picked up on it since tt-forums also has holiday smileys
21:30:22  <Gonozal_VIII> and i don't see how the us guys connect santa with christmas
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21:30:57  <pv2b> i'm from sweden. we have a similar tradition of "tomtar" which has merged into the same image as santa claus.
21:31:12  <pv2b>
21:31:43  <Gonozal_VIII> those are underpants gnomes!
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21:32:36  <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: except they actually have a workable business plan
21:32:43  <peter__> Belugas, yeah, that's what i thought
21:33:21  <Belugas> heheh
21:33:45  <Gonozal_VIII> 1. protect children
21:33:45  <Gonozal_VIII> 2. ???
21:33:45  <Gonozal_VIII> 3. profit!
21:38:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> hm, the ttdpatch wiki seems to be down...
21:38:15  <glx> try wiki2
21:38:45  <dihedral> good night ladies
21:38:48  <LA[Lord]> wiki2 is up
21:38:50  * dihedral grins
21:38:51  <Gonozal_VIII> night
21:38:59  <Gonozal_VIII> <-- not a lady
21:39:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> that reminds me of the simpsons, where homer joins the stonemasons
21:39:08  <LA[Lord]> good night boys girls and dih
21:39:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> "and this is the real number for the emergency call"
21:39:29  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
21:40:19  *** dihedral [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox]]
21:40:19  <Gonozal_VIII> we do!
21:41:28  *** stillunknown [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
21:43:17  <Belugas> time for me to go home.  So good night everyone, if i do not come back
21:43:24  <SmatZ> night Belugas
21:43:28  <Gonozal_VIII> night
21:43:57  <pv2b> nn Belugas
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22:15:38  <Gonozal_VIII> trains on n24
22:16:35  *** Maedhros [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
22:17:30  <Gonozal_VIII> hovertrains :-)
22:17:43  <pv2b> hovercraft on rails?
22:17:47  <pv2b> what is the world coming to.
22:18:07  <Gonozal_VIII> not really..
22:18:17  <Gonozal_VIII> it's about a factory where they build wagons
22:18:26  <pv2b> hovering wagons?
22:18:35  <Gonozal_VIII> they move them around on hovering plates
22:18:59  <pv2b> holy rail wagons on hovercraft batman.
22:19:15  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
22:19:37  <Gonozal_VIII> and now they talk about a 1:50 lego airport
22:19:54  <pv2b> with hovercraft?
22:20:02  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
22:20:12  <Gonozal_VIII> hoverplanes^^
22:20:18  <pv2b> what a stupid idea
22:20:26  <pv2b> why would anyone want a hovering airplane?
22:20:36  <Gonozal_VIII> because!
22:21:08  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm it could start/land on water without the higher friction
22:21:36  <pv2b> uh..... yeah.
22:21:49  <pv2b> got some news. flying boats were a flop.
22:22:43  <Gonozal_VIII> i takes more power to start from water... but not if you hover above it^^
22:23:53  <Gonozal_VIII> hoverplanes could land on water or on grass or asphalt or in the desert without problems :-)
22:24:11  <pv2b> planes already land on grass and asphalt.
22:24:18  <pv2b> without ahving to hover.
22:24:55  <pv2b> in the air such a system would prolly just be dead weight
22:25:10  <Gonozal_VIII> a heavy plane would sink into the ground on grass and break its landing gear
22:25:47  <Gonozal_VIII> yay for hoverplanes!
22:25:58  <Gonozal_VIII> it was your idea anyways ;-)
22:26:00  <pv2b> so bring a sparel anding gear along. i bet it's lighter than making the fucker hover
22:26:06  <pv2b> spare landing gear.
22:26:44  <pv2b> or just d rop whatever you want to deliver on parachutes.
22:27:07  <Gonozal_VIII> you have to land eventually
22:27:20  <pv2b> you'll find a landing strip eventually.
22:28:00  <Gonozal_VIII> yay for hoverplanes!
22:28:04  <pv2b> no
22:28:05  <pv2b> *<:D
22:29:09  <Gonozal_VIII> they're cheating with the lego constructions
22:29:19  <Gonozal_VIII> they use wires
22:29:28  <pv2b> what cheaters.
22:34:33  <LA[Lord]> ok
22:34:42  <LA[Lord]> I completed another version of lighthouse
22:34:44  <LA[Lord]>
22:35:24  <Gonozal_VIII> is that based on a real lighthouse?
22:35:29  <LA[Lord]> no
22:35:33  <LA[Lord]> should it?
22:35:34  <pv2b> that looks... military
22:35:50  <Gonozal_VIII> what's that blue stuff around the middle part?
22:35:56  <pv2b> alien blood
22:36:02  <pv2b> clearly.
22:36:12  <LA[Lord]> windows, gonozal, they're called windows
22:36:21  <Gonozal_VIII> hmm doesn't look like windows
22:36:22  <pv2b> blue windows?
22:36:31  <LA[Lord]> why not?
22:36:40  <LA[Lord]> ye i know they suck
22:36:51  <LA[Lord]> but I had to show whole buliding
22:37:03  <LA[Lord]> coz I go to sleep now I think
22:37:16  <Gonozal_VIII> looks mor like some blue flags that stick out of the wall
22:37:24  <pv2b> or alien blood.
22:37:29  <Gonozal_VIII> or alien blood
22:37:38  <SmatZ> or steps
22:39:03  <LA[Lord]> Anyway, I guess I can change the colours and do sth about those "windows". So wait for some time, I make this and then go to sleep
22:40:17  <Gonozal_VIII> they just don't look like they are in the walls, it looks like something that sticks out
22:41:23  <pv2b> clearly anti-alien spikes.
22:41:38  <Gonozal_VIII> with alien blood on them ;-)
22:41:40  <pv2b> yes.
22:42:29  <pv2b> the red stuff on the bottom is human blood. remains from would be human intruders.
22:42:41  <pv2b> if you look carefully you can see the skulls and bones.
22:42:48  <pv2b> little white specks in a pool of red blood.
22:42:54  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
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22:43:38  <Gonozal_VIII> and the green stuff around the base? different type of alien blood?
22:44:09  <qball> ab-complex
22:45:00  <pv2b> Gonozal_VIII: no, that's just grass.
22:45:11  <pv2b> grows pretty well since it's so fertilised.
22:45:13  <LA[Lord]> it's called grass, gonozal, grass
22:45:17  *** thgergo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:45:19  <Gonozal_VIII> ^^
22:45:23  <LA[Lord]> with alien blood
22:45:44  <Gonozal_VIII> yes i know.. grass grows very fast with blood on it
22:45:51  <pv2b> it's not actually a light house either
22:45:55  <pv2b> it's the ultimate anti alien death raay
22:46:08  <pv2b> sending a bomber to blow up a ufo is so inefficient you see
22:46:13  <LA[Lord]> Codename: Black Mesa West
22:46:16  <Gonozal_VIII> i have some spots with very healthy grass around my house
22:46:19  <pv2b> especially since they fly so slow in the new openttd version
22:46:24  <pv2b> compared to other aircraft that is
22:47:23  <pavel1269> 23:46 <Gonozal_VIII> i have some spots with very healthy grass around my house --- around your hause ... like this:
22:48:04  <Gonozal_VIII> what?
22:48:29  <Bjarni> <ln-> Bjarni: is all the stuff inside the bundle now? <-- all the stuff we distribute and that's needed to make the game work (lng files, grf files and so on). The end user will still have to add files outside the bundle but upgrading is just replacing the bundle
22:48:51  <Bjarni> updating is just drag-n-drop what the user sees as a single file... couldn't be easier
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22:49:19  <pavel1269> gn
22:49:22  <Bjarni> it can even execute directly from the dmg file but it would be silly to mount it each time you want to play ;)
22:49:24  <Gonozal_VIII> night
22:49:25  <ln-> does the end user ever need to modify the stuff inside the bundle?
22:49:31  <Bjarni> no
22:49:35  <Bjarni> night pavel1269
22:49:44  <qball> hmm
22:49:58  *** pavel1269 [] has quit []
22:50:46  <Bjarni> the bundle is designed to make it as easy as possible for the user. Modifying files inside a bundle isn't a trivial thing (unless you know how bundles work) so it's designed in a way that you can but it's not intended to do so
22:51:46  <pv2b> Bjarni: nice. i've alwayss been annoyed at how upgrading sucks
22:51:52  <pv2b> you had to manually replacfe files and stuff
22:51:53  <pv2b> and merge
22:52:20  <pv2b> why is there still a media directory outside the bundle?
22:52:28  <pv2b> and scenario/heightmap empty directories
22:52:33  <Bjarni> I got tired of people failing to upgrade correctly and then they showed up here telling that it failed to open
22:53:19  <Bjarni> you mean in the dmg file?
22:53:26  <pv2b> yeha
22:53:28  <pv2b> yeah.
22:54:24  <Bjarni> hmm
22:54:35  <Bjarni> we don't need the media file on OSX
22:54:39  <Bjarni> *files
22:55:24  <Bjarni> I guess they got introduced during the makefile rewrite
22:55:35  <pv2b> and the scenario/heightmap stuff shouldn't be in that directory anyway
22:55:42  <pv2b> it should be wherever you decide to put it
22:56:20  <Bjarni> I haven't figured out a good installer for the scenarios yet
22:56:32  <pv2b> but the directory is empty anyway
22:56:34  <pv2b> at least in the dmg
22:56:57  <Bjarni> that's because once again I forgot that the files aren't in the checkout and has to be added manually
22:57:06  <Bjarni> which is a pain to do :s
22:57:14  <pv2b> ah.
22:57:36  * Bjarni just got an idea
22:57:43  <pv2b> stick them in the bundle and copy them to the user direcftory at runtime
22:57:50  <Bjarni> I could add adding those files to my new release script
22:58:34  * Bjarni decides to do so
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22:59:33  <LA[Lord]> can Bjarni too comment new alien blood stains @
22:59:38  <LA[Lord]> I updated it :)
23:00:16  <Bjarni> looks.... different
23:00:20  <pv2b> looks better.
23:00:26  <Gonozal_VIII> yes better
23:00:28  <pv2b> the base grass is still a bit mismatched
23:00:32  <pv2b> what's the red stuff?
23:00:39  <Bjarni> blood
23:00:39  <Gonozal_VIII> the windows look like they're in the wall now...
23:01:29  <Gonozal_VIII> the concrete wall still looks very massive
23:01:40  <LA[Lord]> it is stairs, gonozal, stairs
23:01:44  <pv2b> of course, it's a military death ray.
23:01:58  <Gonozal_VIII> stairs?
23:02:11  <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't look like stairs at all
23:02:14  <LA[Lord]> the former windows
23:02:29  <Bjarni> <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't look like stairs at all <-- they do to me
23:02:33  <qball> if windows look odd, call them stairs
23:02:38  <LA[Lord]> Gonozal_VIII>	doesn't look like stairs at all that's because I can't draw
23:02:59  <Bjarni> then it's really good that you make grf files
23:03:01  <Gonozal_VIII> ah the windows... must look closer for that
23:03:16  <Bjarni> they will blend in with the majority of grf files then
23:03:30  * qball wants 32bit
23:03:43  *** stillunknown [] has joined #openttd
23:03:46  * qball remembers playing openttd-32bit
23:04:09  * LA[Lord] wonders why qball doesn't do it now
23:04:10  * Bjarni recalls openttd-32bit to be faster than openttd-8bit
23:04:18  <pv2b> what is openttd-32bit? *<:-)
23:04:25  <LA[Lord]> 32bpp
23:04:29  <Bjarni> OpenTTD with 32 bit graphics
23:04:33  <Gonozal_VIII> wasn't when i tested it bjarni
23:04:35  <Gonozal_VIII> much slower
23:04:38  <Bjarni> it wasn't playable though
23:04:53  <Gonozal_VIII> with the optimized blitter
23:04:54  <Bjarni> but screen drawing was much faster
23:04:55  <LA[Lord]> but it is now
23:05:06  <Gonozal_VIII> sloooow
23:05:11  <Bjarni> but that was the old 32 bit graphics... work stopped on it and we started over
23:05:15  <Bjarni> I can't remember why
23:05:29  <LA[Lord]> maybe because the pixel row error?
23:05:41  <qball> it worked pretty good, and looked good, the parts that where 32bit
23:05:43  <LA[Lord]> your blog says a lot of things
23:05:58  <Bjarni> I have a blog?
23:06:07  <LA[Lord]> developers have
23:06:12  <LA[Lord]>
23:06:49  <LA[Lord]> although it seems only truelight used it
23:07:32  <Bjarni> that could explain why I didn't know it
23:07:39  <Bjarni> btw I lack a login for it :/
23:07:44  <Bjarni> so it's for sure not mine
23:08:04  <LA[Lord]> I guess you can request a login...
23:08:14  <LA[Lord]> you're a dev after all
23:08:28  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't like blogs
23:08:33  <LA[Lord]> and belugas has written too there
23:08:37  <Bjarni> TrueLight retired so now nobody writes in it anymore
23:08:43  <Bjarni> the question is if we should keep it
23:09:03  <Bjarni> last entry was written half a year ago
23:09:07  <pv2b> yay. i get XML from game data.
23:09:20  <pv2b> mostly valid. just need to make sure some strings are xml escaped.
23:11:03  <LA[Lord]> ok..anyway, I go to sleep now
23:11:06  <LA[Lord]> good night
23:11:18  <Gonozal_VIII> 32bpp tubular bridge looks glassy... i thought it was some kind of metal cage thing
23:11:25  <Gonozal_VIII> night
23:11:38  *** LA[Lord] [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.79 [Firefox]]
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23:20:23  <Gonozal_VIII> for some "is there a way to..." questions i just want to reply with "yes" :-)
23:25:17  <Bjarni> is there a way to learn how to pick up rich girls without too much hassle?
23:25:27  <Gonozal_VIII> no :-)
23:25:43  <Bjarni> damn you :P
23:25:59  <Gonozal_VIII>
23:26:00  <Bjarni> at least your answer is trustworthy
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23:29:46  <valhallasw> Gonozal_VIII: that is sooooo dalestan-ish :P
23:30:09  <valhallasw> and Bjarni, check; they probably have an article about that
23:30:52  <Bjarni> but is it working?
23:31:14  <Bjarni> and can I be sure that her mafia father will not hunt me down afterwards?
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23:32:22  <valhallasw> there's probably an article about that, too
23:32:37  <Gonozal_VIII> you didn't say anything about not being killed afterwards
23:33:49  <valhallasw> I mean
23:33:54  <valhallasw> there's an article about "How to Pretend to Be a Girl"
23:34:50  <Gonozal_VIII> can't be too hard, there are lots of "girls" on the intarweb
23:35:02  * valhallasw points to Gonozal_VIII
23:36:00  <Gonozal_VIII> :O how did you find out that i'm a young, rich, hot looking girl that only pretends to be poor and male :O
23:37:01  <Bjarni> <-- heh... that description can't be used to drive out locomotives :P
23:37:15  <Bjarni> *our
23:37:17  <qball> Gonozal_VIII: drawing flames doesn't make you "hot looking"
23:38:59  <Bjarni> I like the warning... you are not allowed to use the info in the article as it would be not only dangerous, but also classified as theft and trespassing
23:39:05  <Bjarni> best article ever
23:39:18  <Bjarni> info is no good (here) and you aren't allowed to use the content of it
23:42:04  *** DeGhost [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:43:31  <Bjarni> <-- hahaha... there really is an article for it xD
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23:45:57  <Bjarni> warning: You might end up marrying a woman that you do not love. This is a good recipe for an unhappy life <--- hehe
23:47:30  <Bjarni> hahaha.... "How to Get Rich Easily"
23:47:34  <Bjarni> 7. Receive a large inheritance.
23:47:46  <Bjarni> gee... I never would have figured that one out on my own :P
23:49:04  <valhallasw> xD
23:50:57  <Gonozal_VIII> Play the lottery with a group <-- so stupid
23:52:11  <Gonozal_VIII> no matter if you play alone or in a group or whatever your chances are always the same
23:53:23  <Bjarni> I will not actually do what it says
23:53:47  <Bjarni> if there really was a web page telling how to get rich quickly without doing shit then everybody would be rich
23:53:51  <Bjarni> that's just not how it works
23:54:21  <Gonozal_VIII> well...
23:54:22  <Gonozal_VIII> [00:47:34] Bjarni: 7. Receive a large inheritance.
23:54:25  <Gonozal_VIII> that works...
23:54:30  <Bjarni> yeah
23:55:01  <Bjarni> my granddad once inherited enough money to buy a new car.
23:55:32  <Bjarni> turned out that a relative who he had never heard about moved to USA and had died of old age without any children
23:55:33  <Gonozal_VIII> from the guy in the usa you never even knew that he existed
23:55:45  <Bjarni> ...
23:55:54  <Bjarni> I guess I told you guys before
23:56:14  <Gonozal_VIII> yes you did
23:56:38  <Bjarni> congratulations
23:56:45  <Bjarni> Gonozal_VIII: you passed the memory test
23:56:47  <Gonozal_VIII> sometimes i remember stuff
23:56:59  <Gonozal_VIII> at random
23:57:00  <Bjarni> how about remembering useful stuff?
23:57:10  <Gonozal_VIII> that's not how it works
23:57:16  <Bjarni> I know
23:57:24  <Bjarni> so I just remember everything
23:57:37  <Bjarni> like....
23:57:43  <Bjarni> you are from the south
23:58:01  <Gonozal_VIII> south?
23:58:12  <Gonozal_VIII> depends on south of what^^
23:58:12  <Bjarni> you live south of me
23:58:41  <Sacro> I'm jammin
23:58:45  <Bjarni> there are two groups of people in here
23:58:47  <Sacro> and i hope you like jammin too
23:58:56  *** Farden [] has quit [Quit: ( :: NoNameScript 4.02 :: )]
23:58:58  <Sacro> Bjarni: normal people and the dutch?
23:59:01  <Gonozal_VIII> you're dutch and i'm austrian so yes... south...
23:59:09  <Bjarni> people living south of me and people who can read this: "hej med dig.... Jeg håber, at du kan lÊse dette"
23:59:15  <Gonozal_VIII> there's not much north for you
23:59:27  * Bjarni slaps Sacro
23:59:33  <Sacro> sorry, danish

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