Log for #openttd on 16th February 2008:
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00:10:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r12155 /trunk/src/ (ai/default/default.cpp airport_gui.cpp station_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r12154): some warnings (always compile before commit)
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00:47:03  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r12156 /trunk/src/core/random_func.hpp: -Fix (r11454): Chance16I was now biased towards zero - round to nearest now
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00:53:29  <Jhs> hi. i'm trying to find the newgrf folder on linux, but can't locate it. do i have to create it? i've seen in ~/.openttd and /usr/share/games/openttd, but there's nothing there
00:54:05  <Jhs> ah nevermind
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00:54:27  <Jhs> "read the guide before asking" is a good idea
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00:55:13  <glx> it's data in these dirs ;)
00:55:41  <glx> one is for only you, the other is for all
00:56:33  <Jhs> in other words, it doesn't mattere where i put it? ;)
00:57:43  <glx> it's easier to put them in your "personal" dir, as you usually don't have write access in the "global" one
00:58:33  <glx> but indeed it doesn't matter, openttd can find them in both
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01:05:01  <Eddi|zuHause2> openttd will search all subdirectories of 'data'
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02:25:32  <DJ-Nekkid> hi all!
02:25:56  <DJ-Nekkid> **
02:26:21  <UnderBuilder> question: can be the canals graphics be redone by using the leppka's water with the canals borders?
02:26:40  <DJ-Nekkid> i have no idea!
02:26:48  <DJ-Nekkid> gimme a year!
02:29:08  <UnderBuilder> or the borders were taken also from the original game?
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02:33:42  <toms> good job guys
02:33:49  <toms> i was up till 3am playing openttd :D
02:33:54  <DJ-Nekkid> oki, im kinda durnk here, but afaik is the lepekkas water made from scratch
02:34:09  <DJ-Nekkid> toms: o3.32:40
02:34:12  <DJ-Nekkid> that is
02:34:27  <DJ-Nekkid> but is that late?
02:34:40  <DJ-Nekkid> it isn't late until when the sun set ...
02:34:48  <toms> yeah
02:34:54  <toms> but im normally in bed at 11pm
02:35:03  <toms> i played network with a friend in the UK
02:35:04  <DJ-Nekkid> thats the weekdays
02:35:08  <toms> silky smooth
02:35:29  <DJ-Nekkid> ottd is the new mmorpg!
02:35:42  <toms> it is truly awesome
02:35:51  <DJ-Nekkid> just that the "world" reset every 7th day or something
02:36:15  <toms> resets ?
02:36:24  <toms> as in the date?
02:36:40  <DJ-Nekkid> and none of thoose epic armor, or choosen armor, or alien armor, or 8th tier ultrablaster or some shit isnt worth everything
02:37:30  <toms> haha you must be drunk, i cant understand what you are on about  :P
02:37:35  <DJ-Nekkid> pint is toms;
02:37:39  <DJ-Nekkid> yes im drunk*!
02:37:43  <DJ-Nekkid> the point is;
02:37:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r12157 /trunk/src/ (table/unmovable_land.h unmovable_cmd.cpp):
02:37:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Remove a structure definition and replace it with another one closely matching
02:37:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Replace two magic numbers with according sprite names
02:38:06  <DJ-Nekkid> in every mmorpg all you need to be uuba' is;
02:38:30  <DJ-Nekkid> the best armor, best weapon and shit
02:38:57  <DJ-Nekkid> in opencoop or whatever coop-server, what you need is skills to make the "best" station
02:39:26  <DJ-Nekkid> or junction
02:39:30  <toms> yes
02:39:30  <DJ-Nekkid> or merge
02:39:37  <DJ-Nekkid> or things
02:39:49  <DJ-Nekkid> no "uber" items make you better
02:40:09  <toms> haha
02:40:10  <toms> that is true
02:40:22  <toms> strategy is my type of game
02:40:25  <DJ-Nekkid> it's just abot skills, and the ability to cooperte
02:40:31  <DJ-Nekkid> cooperate
02:40:34  <toms> i used to play the original ttd for hours on end back in the day
02:40:35  <DJ-Nekkid> ish word
02:40:57  <DJ-Nekkid> didnt we all when we were 13 or 15, 10-12 years ago
02:41:07  <toms> i installed windows 98 in a VM the other day hoping to play the original
02:41:16  <toms> but it didnt work too well, then i found openttd and i was saved
02:41:21  <DJ-Nekkid> then we played quake and plew eachother to pieces
02:41:30  <toms> lol
02:41:42  <DJ-Nekkid> and then some more ttd
02:41:45  <toms> "teach you to steal my coal!"
02:41:45  <DJ-Nekkid> or settlers 2
02:41:49  <toms> yes
02:41:53  <toms> settlers was also good
02:42:32  <DJ-Nekkid> slettlers 2 > settlers 1
02:42:40  <DJ-Nekkid> but settlers 2 > settlers 3+
02:42:59  <toms> haha
02:43:41  <DJ-Nekkid> hehe!
02:43:54  <toms> are you in norway?
02:43:59  <toms> my mum is from norway
02:44:08  <DJ-Nekkid> im norwegian
02:44:19  <DJ-Nekkid> live and work in norway
02:44:36  <DJ-Nekkid> and im from norway
02:45:19  <DJ-Nekkid> tho; my dad is english... but he's liveed in norway as well the past ... 26ish years ... tho; his norweegian suck, i prefer to speak enlish to him
02:45:22  <DJ-Nekkid> english
02:45:43  <toms> haha
02:46:56  <DJ-Nekkid> asl? *try to check you out*
02:48:02  <toms> haha
02:48:13  <toms> 24 m australia
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02:53:35  <DJ-Nekkid> oki...
02:53:51  <DJ-Nekkid> so you are like late into sunday aleardy!
02:54:13  <DJ-Nekkid> *drink some water from the friday partying*
02:54:29  <toms> nah, 1:30pm on saturday
02:54:54  <DJ-Nekkid> almost
02:54:56  <DJ-Nekkid> ehm
02:55:02  <DJ-Nekkid> like hanvover-time?
02:55:05  <DJ-Nekkid> *hang*
02:55:12  <toms> nope
02:55:22  <toms> cause i dont get that drunk  :)
02:56:27  <DJ-Nekkid> ah!!!!!!!!
02:56:28  <DJ-Nekkid> wise!
02:56:54  <DJ-Nekkid> wish i had the same tactic!
02:57:21  <toms> lol
02:57:35  <DJ-Nekkid> tho; im 2-3 years older; so i should know better
02:57:43  <DJ-Nekkid> (tho, i don't)
02:59:02  <toms> heh
02:59:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> <toms> i installed windows 98 in a VM the other day hoping to play the original  <- try dosbox
03:01:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r12158 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp:
03:01:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: merge all the sprite recolouring mapping under a single function
03:01:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix: Handle the bridge recolouring mapping as the other features. Although not specified by the specs, it seems to be implicit.
03:01:19  <DJ-Nekkid> gl? hf=
03:01:20  <DJ-Nekkid> ?
03:01:36  <DJ-Nekkid> <3 ms windows "student version"
03:02:03  <DJ-Nekkid> (and milk, and wife's pussy)
03:02:39  <DJ-Nekkid> and
03:02:40  <DJ-Nekkid> beer
03:02:44  <DJ-Nekkid> and, brown cheese
03:03:10  <DJ-Nekkid> and ... salami "pÞlse" (sausage or someting) on ... round pieces
03:03:28  <DJ-Nekkid> and star trek!
03:03:41  <DJ-Nekkid> *not beeing steriotypical geekÆ
03:03:43  <DJ-Nekkid> Æ
03:03:45  <DJ-Nekkid> *
03:03:46  <DJ-Nekkid> ffs
03:03:51  <DJ-Nekkid> ^^
03:04:24  <toms> ive never watched a single episode of star trek
03:04:38  <toms> and i dont think ive seen a single episode of star wars from start to finish
03:05:03  <DJ-Nekkid> SW dont come in episodes, thoose come in movies
03:05:29  <DJ-Nekkid> imho!
03:05:53  <DJ-Nekkid> however;
03:07:04  <DJ-Nekkid> star trek is a future prediction, and star wars is a saga compared to for example l.o.t.s
03:10:37  <DJ-Nekkid> lotr that is
03:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> star wars is a fairy tale, it starts with "once upon a time"
03:11:54  <DJ-Nekkid> aka saga? right?
03:13:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belugas * r12159 /trunk/src/town_gui.cpp:
03:13:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Enumify some widget magical numbers
03:13:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: apply a bit of code style. Mostly re-indenting switch cases
03:13:18  <DJ-Nekkid> kinda like 47 books, 300 pages, witchcraft housewife porn series*
03:13:22  <Belugas> Saga?  good band
03:13:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> "... und wenn sie nicht gestorben sind, dann leben sie heute noch"
03:14:02  <DJ-Nekkid> (ref; sagaen om isfolket ... or ... the saga about the icepeople ... or something
03:15:29  <DJ-Nekkid>
03:15:31  <UnderBuilder> I used to love civ2
03:16:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> civ2 an TT, probably the games i spent the most time with
03:17:22  <UnderBuilder> civ2 is a great game, TT too, why not make TTciv?
03:17:51  <DJ-Nekkid> ociv2? ;) eithyerway. g'night
03:17:52  <UnderBuilder> lol
03:18:13  <UnderBuilder> that's a bad thing from actual games...
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03:18:43  <DJ-Nekkid> problem with civ2, once railroad is invented, the games gets either fun or too timeconsuming ...
03:18:49  <DJ-Nekkid> but as i saied, gnight
03:19:16  <UnderBuilder> they pick up two good games and from them they make one new that usually becomes a bullshit
03:19:40  <UnderBuilder> most times they pickup totally different games
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04:55:06  <PooFondu> I want to castrate a niggger and fry his balls before eating them.  Then I can fuccck my little niggger biitch faaagg every night. ....Pumpin my dildo til he bleeds.  Niggger eunuchs for my muff   ohhh yeahh
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05:02:52  <PooFondu> ISLE OF MAN - June 1, 2006 - At a press conference today, Canonical CEO and Free Software spokesniggger Mark Shuttleworth announced the immediate availability of version 6.06 of the Ubuntu Linux distribution. The latest version, known by its code name, "The Diaper Drake," includes special features designed to make Linux easier and more comfortable for nigggers the world over.
05:02:59  <PooFondu> "Niggggers have always had trouble understanding new technology," Shuttleworth began. "Computers are no exception. Some people have said this is because niggggers are dumb, but I believe the real problem is that technology has traditionally been designed for white people. Ubuntu changes all that. It was developed from the ground up with niggggers in mind. It will usher in a whole new era of Afro-ergonomic computing."
05:03:04  <PooFondu> Shuttleworth presented an overview of some of the features users could expect in the latest version of Ubuntu, including an Ebonics-to-English converter, African "tribal beats" sound and desktop theme, and a collection of rap music and gay pornography, "which of course will be encoded using patent and royalty-free formats," Shuttleworth added, smiling. He proceeded to elaborate, but Impress crashed at that
05:03:09  <PooFondu>  point.
05:03:11  <PooFondu> "But this release isn't just about new features," Shuttleworth said, making a quick segue to the humanitarian and ideological concept behind Ubuntu. "This new version brings black men closer together than ever in the spirit of Ubuntu." Shuttleworth then demonstrated the concept of Ubuntu by getting on his knees and sucking a young black boy's erect penis.
05:03:57  <toms> right ...
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05:26:26  <Gekz> he spammed everywhere with it
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05:36:31  <toms> yeah i figured
05:36:49  <toms> havnt used a public IRC server in quite a while, forgot that sort of junk went on  :P
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06:00:45  <Forked> dumdidum
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06:02:24  <Gekz> toms: that's the first time I've seen pure stupidity like that though
06:05:18  <a1270> You haven't been on dalnet then.
06:12:36  <Forked> or efnet back in the days..
06:23:46  <Gekz> lol
06:23:51  <Gekz> I dont do drugs.
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07:49:33  <Wolf01> hello
07:49:39  <Gonozal_VIII> hi
07:50:16  * Wolf01 looks outside the window
07:50:20  <Wolf01> today is a good day to purchase an xbox360
07:50:36  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't like consoles
07:53:31  <Wolf01> i don't like people, but i talk to them :P
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08:06:31  <toms> 16:36 < Gekz> toms: that's the first time I've seen pure stupidity like that though
08:06:34  <toms> 16:39 < a1270> You haven't been on dalnet then.
08:06:36  <toms> ive been to dalnet
08:06:39  <toms> 16:46 < Forked> or efnet back in the days..
08:06:41  <toms> heh
08:06:46  <toms> years and years ago
08:06:50  <toms> i was there for a couple of mintes
08:06:54  <toms> then left
08:08:11  <Forked> hehe
08:08:44  <toms> dont think ive been to efnet though
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08:17:24  <Wolf01> ethical question: i know there is another italian TT forum linked into the ottd wiki, do you think there is any problem if i link mine too?
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09:57:12  <Alberth> Does anyone know when to use v->service_interval vs _patches.servint_* (ie what is each var used for?), in particular in the decision to perform periodic maintenance?
09:58:01  <Gonozal_VIII> _patches is the patch setting (default stuff) and v is the vehicle
10:01:02  <Alberth> when the patch is 0, it seems no maintenance is performed. In addition, when creating a vehicle, the patch setting is copied to the vehicle. So what should happen when I set the patch value to 0, create a vehicle, then set the patch value to non-zero?
10:01:59  <Alberth> or can I not change the patch setting during a game?
10:02:36  <Gonozal_VIII> i consider that a flaw in the system, you can't change the value to 0 without setting the default to 0 and you can't raise 0 to 10...
10:02:40  <Alberth> PS note the word **should**
10:05:11  <Gonozal_VIII> and 15... you can set the default to 15 but not ingame... inconsistant
10:06:03  <Alberth> what you say is that my scenario should be allowed, but it isn't atm
10:06:12  <Gonozal_VIII> yes
10:06:29  <Gonozal_VIII> vehicle built with default 0 stays at 0
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10:07:16  <LordAzamath> hello
10:07:17  <Alberth> ack, the patch setting is never copied to v during its life time.
10:07:23  <Alberth> hai
10:07:29  <Gonozal_VIII> hi la
10:07:51  <Alberth> shoud the v->service_interval be eliminated then?
10:08:26  <Alberth> (difficult questions early in the morning :) )
10:08:41  <Gonozal_VIII> should be able to use the current default value
10:09:21  <Gonozal_VIII> service interval for a vehicle set to default... you change default... all vehicles with default change too
10:09:29  <LordAzamath> hmm.. I've had less time recently.. and now find the thread not updated at all..
10:09:48  <LordAzamath> the 8bpp replacement
10:10:46  <Gonozal_VIII> there's no parking space in front of hangar doors^^
10:10:49  <Alberth> Gonozal_VIII: I understand. Is there a way to check whether a v has a non-default setting (oher than v->service_interval != _patches.servint_*) ?
10:11:45  <Gonozal_VIII> enumify the values of service_interval and use one of them as "default"
10:13:35  <Alberth> can I not set arbitrary service_intervals for each of the vehicle types? (specified in days orso?). Makes enumifying a bit hard... ;)
10:13:56  <LordAzamath> there's no parking space in front of hangar doors^^ ??
10:14:12  <LordAzamath> what was that about?
10:14:17  <Gonozal_VIII> your reply to the military thingy
10:14:30  <LordAzamath> only it's  not a hangar
10:15:32  <Gonozal_VIII> of course it's a hangar, there's doors where ufos come out ;-) can't park in front of that
10:16:34  <LordAzamath> hmm.. I'm now going to code this_: I think, but which one will be TIM?
10:16:42  <LordAzamath> what do you want?
10:17:37  <Gonozal_VIII> values could be default, 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 10, 15,... 50, 60, 70.. 150, 175, 200... 300, 350, 400... 800
10:18:37  <Tefad> 9001 ?
10:18:52  <Gonozal_VIII> 9001?
10:19:02  <Alberth> Gonozal_VIII: Tnx for all info, lots to think about
10:20:23  <Alberth> 9001: ISO certified :)
10:21:20  <Alberth> (you wouldn't want to build an UFO without ISO-certification, would you?)
10:22:00  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
10:23:09  <Maedhros> British Rail patented a flying saucer, at one point
10:24:08  <Alberth> Put it at the building, something like
10:27:06  <Wolf01> the video might be cool... without those glowing and colourful effects -_-'''
10:30:00  <Gonozal_VIII> yay openttd videos
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12:20:01  <Gonozal_VIII> nobody here all the time?
12:20:16  <yorick> nope
12:20:25  <Prof_Frink> I'm never here.
12:21:52  <Tekky> I'm not here, either :)
12:21:54  <peter1138> LordAzamath, the bottom one is TIM
12:22:10  <Gonozal_VIII> tim is tgv
12:22:20  <LordAzamath> can't speak to me, I'm not here
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12:22:31  <LordAzamath> ^^
12:23:22  <LordAzamath> peter1138: I just wanted to know which one you preferred.. and now I have already coded the ifrst one, so I won't be dong the other..
12:23:44  * peter1138 wonders if Tekky has curses any updates to YAPP
12:24:11  <peter1138> LordAzamath, no reason to not have them all ;)
12:24:28  <LordAzamath> oh yes there is
12:25:26  <LordAzamath> in replacement set it's sprite replacement 0A.. I doubt you can have two alternate versions with ActionA :P
12:26:06  <peter1138> Use it later
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13:04:10  <Gonozal_VIII> poor forum was hurt
13:04:18  <Gonozal_VIII> bleeding background all over the page
13:05:42  <peter1138> Can you hear me Major Tom?
13:06:35  <Gonozal_VIII> good song :-)
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13:22:54  <dih> @seen Bjarni
13:22:54  <DorpsGek> dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 16 hours, 10 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Bjarni> besides spelled in a stupid way
13:23:04  <dih> get in here...!
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14:50:23  <Alberth> It seems that "p->engine_renew_months" (for autorenewal) means number of months *after* max-age (aircraft_cmd.cpp, line 1577). Naively, I would expect *before*. Which is it supposed to be?
14:51:06  <Gonozal_VIII> you can set if from -12 to 12
14:51:27  <Gonozal_VIII> -12 after is 12 before :-)
14:51:39  <Alberth> that's what I wanted to know.
14:51:41  <Alberth> tnx
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14:59:06  <Alberth> hmm, text in the 'configure patches' window is broken then. It says "Autorenew when vehicle is 6 months before/after max age". The "before/" text should be deleted imho
15:00:36  <Gonozal_VIII> best would be to change from before to after when you get past 0
15:00:49  <Gonozal_VIII> no negatives
15:01:18  <Alberth> that would be ideal indeed
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15:56:58  <LordAzamath> does anyone know what is the sprite 674 in trg1r.pcx for?
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16:02:03  <Gonozal_VIII> nothing
16:02:09  <Gonozal_VIII> not used in the code
16:02:26  <LordAzamath> kinda weird sprite I should say..
16:02:30  <Gonozal_VIII> doesn't have a name in sprites.h and doesn't appear in the sourcefiles
16:02:52  <LordAzamath> Gonozal_VIII: Does sprites.h count all sprites that are used?
16:03:26  <Gonozal_VIII> nope
16:03:33  <Gonozal_VIII> gives some of them names
16:04:35  <Gonozal_VIII> 	SPR_SELECT_TILE  = 752,
16:04:35  <Gonozal_VIII> 	SPR_DOT          = 774, // corner marker for lower/raise land
16:04:35  <Gonozal_VIII> 	SPR_DOT_SMALL    = 4078,
16:04:35  <Gonozal_VIII> 	SPR_WHITE_POINT  = 4079,
16:04:38  <Gonozal_VIII> like that
16:04:55  <LordAzamath> but not all?
16:05:06  <Gonozal_VIII> nope
16:05:19  <LordAzamath> gahh why am I asking, I've got the svn source here anyway :D
16:05:27  <Gonozal_VIII> but every set afaik
16:05:44  <Gonozal_VIII> first sprite in a set has name, others are name + n
16:05:57  <LordAzamath> hmm
16:05:58  <LordAzamath> ok
16:07:20  <Gonozal_VIII> for example terrain sprites... only the flat ones have a name
16:07:42  <Rippsy> Will openttd.exe in 0.6.0b3 load a openttd.cfg from its root dir over one it finds in mydocs/openttd?
16:07:53  <Gonozal_VIII> yes
16:08:02  <LordAzamath> if it has one in installation dir then yes
16:08:42  <LordAzamath> wtf? Gonozal_VIII, a n00b needs help
16:08:52  <Rippsy> ty :)
16:08:53  <LordAzamath> where exactly is sprites.h?
16:08:57  <Gonozal_VIII> table
16:09:15  <Gonozal_VIII> src/table
16:09:32  <LordAzamath> ok... n00b got help :)
16:09:38  <Gonozal_VIII> hehe
16:10:54  <Gonozal_VIII> but i didn't find 674 anywhere in the code
16:11:22  <LordAzamath> hmm.. I like this part of sprites.h
16:11:23  <LordAzamath>  * All sprites which are described here are referenced only one to a handful of times * throughout the code. When introducing new sprite enums, use meaningful names. * Don't be lazy and typing, and only use abbrevations when their meaning is clear or * the length of the enum would get out of hand. In that case EXPLAIN THE ABBREVATION * IN THIS FILE, and perhaps add some comments in the code where it is used. * Now, don't whine about thi
16:11:23  <LordAzamath>  30 characters in length. If your editor doen't help you simplifying your work, * get a proper editor. If your Operating Systems don't have any decent editors, * get a proper Operating System.
16:11:28  <Gonozal_VIII> i doubt it's char sprite + something...
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16:12:38  <LordAzamath> well it looks like some kind of colour table, but if it aint used, it's ok :)
16:13:02  <LordAzamath> my first guess was that it has something to do with company colour overlay.
16:13:08  <Gonozal_VIII> i don't think it really matters for the replacement stuff
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16:13:21  <LordAzamath> me neither
16:13:23  <Gonozal_VIII> single pixels..
16:13:39  <LordAzamath> but it's just an interesting sprite :D
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16:17:18  <LordAzamath> so actually trg1r is FULL of sprites that are never used?
16:17:32  <Gonozal_VIII> yep^^
16:17:40  <LordAzamath> like... 93 - 127
16:17:41  <LordAzamath> :P
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16:18:26  <LordAzamath> I think it's just there to make something like contious actionA harder :P
16:19:43  <Gonozal_VIII> well... those are nice... transparent pixels... very important...
16:20:20  <LordAzamath> what about 675-678?
16:20:28  <Gonozal_VIII> baaah
16:20:35  <LordAzamath> I couldn't find them in sprites.h either
16:20:40  <Gonozal_VIII> you keep askin that stuff right after i closed the image
16:21:02  <Gonozal_VIII> like... a second after i closed it
16:21:44  <LordAzamath> hehe
16:21:49  <LordAzamath> don't close it :P
16:22:13  <Gonozal_VIII> -678?
16:22:40  <LordAzamath> 675 676 677 678
16:22:42  <Gonozal_VIII> ah that stuff
16:22:56  <Gonozal_VIII> some kind of background thingy...
16:23:05  <LordAzamath> seems like some sort of glass
16:24:02  <LordAzamath> but where is it used?
16:24:28  <Gonozal_VIII> why should i know that?
16:24:58  <LordAzamath> I thought maybe you have seen it somewhere in-game
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16:32:56  <remaxim> hi Belugas
16:35:47  <peter1138> He is not usually around at the weekend.
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16:41:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r12160 /trunk/src/ (saveload.cpp waypoint.cpp waypoint.h): -Fix [FS#1744]: remove the arbitrary limit of 64 waypoints per town, so weird things won't happen anymore
16:41:24  <Gonozal_VIII> 64 waypoints per town...
16:41:35  <Gonozal_VIII> does anybody actually reach that limit?
16:41:44  <SmatZ> if you did, the game crashed
16:41:51  <ben_goodger> Gonozal_VIII: of course not
16:42:03  <glx> because it created a 65th waypoint
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16:42:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: 1 town, lots of industries?
16:42:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> huge map?
16:43:08  <Gonozal_VIII> huge map with 1 town?
16:43:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> not that i would play that way, but i have seen people talk about playing like that
16:43:28  <Gonozal_VIII> well ok... possible
16:44:01  <Gonozal_VIII> crashing is always bad, even if it's very unlikely to happen...
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16:53:36  <SmatZ> crashing is bad when there can be people who want to destroy the game
16:54:03  <Gonozal_VIII> oh multiplayer, i see, i see
16:54:25  <Gonozal_VIII> like the double engine endless loop thingy
16:55:26  <glx> or the remove rail on buildings ;)
16:55:37  <Gonozal_VIII> is that fixed?
16:55:44  <glx> in trunk yes
16:55:59  <Gonozal_VIII> goody
16:57:56  <SmatZ> that "removing rail on buildings" wouldn't be that bad as releases are often build without asserts
16:58:28  <glx> well asserts are there for a good reason :)
16:58:36  <Gonozal_VIII> not that one^^
16:58:46  <glx> as without assert you could corrupt the map array
16:59:01  <SmatZ> yeah, but in this case, it was harmless :)
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17:00:20  <Morloth> Good day to you all :)
17:00:25  <SmatZ> hello Morloth
17:00:26  <Gonozal_VIII> hi
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17:10:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r12161 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix: towns will no longer build houses > 1x1 there where should be road (with 2x2, 3x3 grid town layouts)
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17:11:55  <yorick> :)
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17:16:00  <LordAzamath> hmm.. is there any good way to see if a sprite is used in-game? and when it is, then where?
17:16:24  <LordAzamath> because I constantly fail to find some items..
17:16:57  <Alberth> how do you search?
17:17:21  <LordAzamath> first way.. look around in sprites.h
17:17:26  <Alberth> a number over all files would be my idea
17:17:41  <LordAzamath> second way, look around in-game
17:17:42  <Alberth> (add 'search for' in front)
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17:18:42  <Alberth> you mean a sprite itself, and not its number/identification
17:19:49  <LordAzamath> where certain sprite is used
17:19:54  <LordAzamath> for example 816
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17:20:04  <LordAzamath> 681*
17:20:10  <LordAzamath> in trg1r.grf
17:20:19  <LordAzamath> I can't find it
17:20:25  <LordAzamath> that's the trashcan
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17:22:15  <Alberth> have a sprite that you can find?
17:22:45  <Alberth> (assuming the other ones are near)
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17:26:31  <LordAzamath> well.. yes.
17:26:53  <LordAzamath> there are just few onws I can't :P
17:27:45  <LordAzamath> actually, I have a hunch that sprite 681 isn't used anywhere
17:28:30  <Alberth> the number is not used at least (in sprite context), it seems
17:28:58  <Alberth> (neither decimal nor hexadecimal)
17:29:46  <Gonozal_VIII> no hex in the code
17:30:02  <Gonozal_VIII> well.. string names have some hex
17:30:22  <Alberth> and constants (maybe only bits)?
17:30:49  <Alberth> Argh!! "cmdcost = DoCommand(0, replace_engine, 0, DC_QUERY_COST, CMD_BUILD_AIRCRAFT);" doesn't work :(
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17:31:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> <LordAzamath> that's the trashcan <-- it was used in the depot window
17:31:09  <LordAzamath> ha.
17:31:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> but the sprites got replaced
17:31:15  <LordAzamath> not anymore
17:31:25  <LordAzamath> I just found it out ott
17:31:28  <LordAzamath> too*
17:31:38  <LordAzamath> so this won't be needed :)
17:31:54  <Alberth> I need another way to estimate replacement costs, obviously......
17:32:15  <Alberth> LordAzamath: One more sprite free for use!
17:32:26  <LordAzamath> ?
17:32:39  <Gonozal_VIII> it doesn't work that way
17:32:55  <Alberth> You weren't collecting free sprites? :)
17:33:04  <LordAzamath> one more sprite not to replace :D
17:33:16  <Alberth> ah!
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17:33:51  <peter1138> Trashcan used to be used in the depot window
17:34:12  <peter1138> And hex numbers are used for sprite IDs all over the place...
17:34:50  <LordAzamath> but no trashcan anymore
17:35:03  <LordAzamath> I mark it as such now :)
17:36:01  <laz0r> hi, I've asked this question in the past, and remember getting an answer, but I forgot it... I would like to know if there are binary builds for linux available that are _not_ in the form of a .deb/.rpm/whatever, just a tarball?
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17:36:40  <glx> nightlies are
17:37:28  <laz0r> no, i would like the stable and beta releases
17:37:40  <laz0r> s/and/or
17:37:44  <glx> only source is available as tarball
17:38:46  <Alberth> Does tarball of binaries not have lots of library dependencies?
17:39:24  <laz0r> that would depend on openttds dependencies i guess
17:40:01  <laz0r> what does openttd depend on? SDL?
17:40:06  <Alberth> tarball does't keep dependencies like .deb/.rpm does
17:40:21  <Alberth> % ldd openttd
17:40:21  <Alberth> =>  (0x00110000)
17:40:21  <Alberth> => /usr/lib/ (0x03078000)
17:40:21  <Alberth> => /lib/ (0x00a23000)
17:40:21  <Alberth> => /lib/ (0x00292000)
17:40:22  <Alberth>" target="_blank"> => /usr/lib/" target="_blank"> (0x076d7000)
17:40:22  <Alberth> => /lib/ (0x00a3d000)
17:40:24  <Alberth> => /usr/lib/ (0x00c24000)
17:40:24  <Alberth> => /usr/lib/ (0x00c4c000)
17:40:26  <Alberth> => /usr/lib/ (0x00b98000)
17:40:26  <Alberth> => /lib/ (0x009f1000)
17:40:28  <Alberth> => /lib/ (0x0089b000)
17:40:28  <Alberth> => /lib/ (0x00ce3000)
17:40:30  <Alberth>         /lib/ (0x0087c000)
17:40:30  <Alberth> => /lib/ (0x00a1c000)
17:40:32  <Alberth> => /lib/ (0x00b75000)
17:40:36  <Alberth> that enough?
17:40:47  <laz0r> i've seen more
17:40:48  <Prof_Frink> zomfsm flood
17:40:59  <laz0r> still i would just like a simple tarball...
17:41:01  *** Alberth was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [next time use :)]
17:42:01  <glx> hmm no autorejoin
17:42:14  <peter1138> Good riddance ;)
17:42:32  * Prof_Frink goves DorpsGek a cookie
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17:46:29  <saati> what is openttd doing with expat?
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17:48:03  <glx> freetype dependancy IIRC
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17:50:39  <Rippsy> Anyone available who can try to connect to my server please? its running 0.6.0b3
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17:54:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r12162 /trunk/src/town_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1757]: towns shouldn't build over houses owned by another town
18:11:04  <Morloth> Btw, are the docs at : updated automagically if a new version of the NoAI branch become available?
18:11:20  <glx> dunno
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18:18:02  <VLengoc> Hi
18:18:40  <Gonozal_VIII> hi
18:18:42  <SmatZ> hello
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18:53:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> hmm...,%2018.%20Dez%201982.png <- that is the closest i could get to a subway line... there must be better ways... did anybody make a station set that looks like it has buildings or road on top of it?
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18:54:17  <Axamentia> eddi ive been thinking of making a subway station grf
18:54:59  <Axamentia> i allready use gare central to make low level stations then put road round it
18:56:00  <Axamentia> only issue is putting signals
18:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> yeah, that won't go away ;)
18:56:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> you could build bridges there
18:56:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> to hide them
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18:57:10  <Axamentia> Thats a mint idea eddi
18:58:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> also a "problem", a subway would usually use 3rd rail, not catenary
18:58:10  <LordAzamath> what is tubular bridge in real life?
18:58:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> what is a real life?
18:59:18  <LordAzamath> arghh!! you're a geek, next please
18:59:44  <LordAzamath> Actually I need some reference picture for tubular steel bridge
18:59:45  <ln-> LordAzamath: future technology
19:00:03  <LordAzamath> so I have to use original sprites as reference?
19:00:14  <LordAzamath> oh gashh..
19:00:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> the tubular bridges were originally used for the mars set
19:00:30  <Gonozal_VIII> i think of it as some metal cage thingy
19:00:35  <LordAzamath> hmm
19:00:47  <LordAzamath> a 'future thing' indeed :P
19:00:52  <Axamentia> Actually there was an orginal bridge in 1850
19:01:11  <Axamentia> Designed by stephenson
19:01:14  <LordAzamath> I saw that 10mins ago already :
19:01:16  <LordAzamath> :P
19:01:48  <Gonozal_VIII> it's transparent ingame so it's not like that
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19:02:03  <Axamentia> lol yeah
19:02:19  <Axamentia> But it would be the nearist Real life tech out there
19:02:41  <LordAzamath> ^^
19:02:47  <LordAzamath> wikipedia LIES
19:03:00  <LordAzamath> if it's not like Open, it's wrong
19:03:08  <ln-> LordAzamath: this is as good source as possible, the bridge is in Scotland:
19:04:48  *** DJ-Nekk|d [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:04:54  <LordAzamath> aghh..
19:05:15  <LordAzamath> I've tried to draw several things whole today
19:05:21  <LordAzamath> and I have failed
19:05:45  <Gonozal_VIII> that's a nice bridge
19:05:53  *** Phantasm [] has joined #openttd
19:06:08  <LordAzamath> It really sucks actually when I spend a lot time doing something, what just doesn't come right..
19:06:14  <Axamentia> Its a very nice bridge crossing it as well!!
19:07:49  <Gonozal_VIII> looks like they used the wrong value for gravity while constructing it or something^^
19:08:30  <Gonozal_VIII> like 100 instead of the usual 10
19:08:41  <Gonozal_VIII> (rounded up 9,81)
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19:09:50  <LordAzamath> gravitation constant? sounds like that :D 9.8 N/kg
19:10:20  <Gonozal_VIII> m/s²
19:10:25  <Gonozal_VIII> but yes^^
19:10:41  <Gonozal_VIII> in construction they use 10
19:11:19  <Gonozal_VIII> and multiply with an extra factor usually somewhere around 1,5 - 2
19:12:08  <Gonozal_VIII> at least that's what i learned in school
19:12:33  <Axamentia> The other great briidge from that age
19:12:55  <Gonozal_VIII> quite massive too
19:13:40  <Axamentia>
19:13:43  <Gonozal_VIII> i guess materials were not that good back then, no computer simulations and of course cheaper labour
19:14:42  <Gonozal_VIII> that one looks less overdimensioned
19:14:42  <Axamentia> Lol computers didnt even exist, it was all mental calculations, the engineers designed the thing
19:14:59  <Gonozal_VIII> i know that :P
19:15:18  <Axamentia> Most engineers back then, also went for grandure, as opposed to simplicity as they wanted legacy's
19:15:21  <LordAzamath> Gonozal_VIII: m/s2? where m would be? where S would be?
19:15:35  <Gonozal_VIII> meter and seconds
19:15:47  <LordAzamath> gravity?
19:15:50  <LordAzamath> wtf?
19:15:59  <Gonozal_VIII> acceleration in free fall
19:16:42  <LordAzamath> gravitation constant is 10Newtons/kg
19:16:55  <LordAzamath> new ton.. hmm
19:16:58  <Gonozal_VIII> and newton is?
19:17:04  <saati> N/kg == m/s^2
19:17:18  <saati> N is m*kg/s^2
19:17:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> 1N is defined as n*kg/s^2
19:17:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> s/n/m/
19:17:45  <Gonozal_VIII> see... divide by kg, same thing
19:18:34  <LordAzamath> hmm
19:19:13  <LordAzamath> It's our first year, we're learning physics..
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19:19:25  <LordAzamath> so the things I know, I know
19:19:35  <LordAzamath> but other things are totally black holes
19:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can express almost all advanced physics units with the base units m, s, kg and A
19:19:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> "first year" of what?
19:20:00  <ben_goodger> LordAzamath: there's nothing total about a black whole :P
19:20:13  <ben_goodger> *hole
19:20:22  <LordAzamath> first year of learning physics in school
19:20:25  <LordAzamath> 8th grade
19:20:54  <De_Ghost> a?
19:20:55  <LordAzamath> we learned chemistry/physics previous year too, but it was under other subject
19:21:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> at least i don't know any unit that cannot be expressed with these
19:21:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> A, not a
19:21:10  <De_Ghost> A?
19:21:14  <De_Ghost> is what again?
19:21:15  <LordAzamath> what is A?
19:21:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> 1a=10m^2
19:21:28  <De_Ghost> area?
19:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> AmpÚre
19:21:41  <De_Ghost> o
19:21:43  <De_Ghost> no
19:21:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> unit of current
19:21:48  <De_Ghost> what about coulumbs?
19:22:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> you mean Coulombs ;)
19:22:08  <saati> Eddi|zuHause3: you need K and mol too
19:22:10  <De_Ghost> 1 electron have like 1.2 -19 C
19:22:16  <ben_goodger> the base units are m, kg, s, A, K, mol, cd
19:22:17  <De_Ghost> mol is not a unit
19:22:24  <ben_goodger> it is a unit
19:22:29  <saati> it's a unit
19:22:30  <De_Ghost> no... it's a concept
19:22:35  <ben_goodger> it's a unit.
19:22:41  <saati> all units are concepts
19:22:47  <De_Ghost> not really
19:22:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, it's a modificator
19:22:53  <De_Ghost> mol is a middle step
19:22:59  <ben_goodger> the coulomb is an amp second
19:23:00  <De_Ghost> to simpify things
19:23:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> lik kilo is 1000
19:23:06  <saati> okay but you still need K
19:23:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> mol is <very huge number>
19:23:15  <De_Ghost> is it
19:23:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, K
19:23:20  <saati> ~6*10^23
19:23:21  <saati> mol
19:23:23  <De_Ghost> i though amp is charge per second
19:23:24  <LordAzamath> stfu, you are confuzing me.. and I don't like chemics
19:23:31  <LordAzamath> nor physics
19:23:37  <LordAzamath> ^^
19:23:47  <ln-> LordAzamath: it's chemistry
19:23:49  <De_Ghost> amp is not the base
19:23:53  <De_Ghost> coulumb is the bas
19:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> but you could try to express K by J
19:24:05  <ben_goodger> De_Ghost: no, the amp is the base
19:24:06  <saati> the SI base is A
19:24:14  <saati> you could use C as the base
19:24:16  <LordAzamath> LordAzamath wrote: "we learned chemistry/physics previous year too, but it was under other subject"
19:24:19  <saati> it does not matter
19:24:23  <LordAzamath> I know
19:24:28  <De_Ghost> under religion?
19:24:31  <LordAzamath> but it's shorter
19:24:32  <De_Ghost> GOD MADE IT THAT WAY
19:24:33  <De_Ghost> lol
19:24:51  <ben_goodger> A=Cs, C=A/s
19:25:00  <LordAzamath> De_Ghost: We don't study religion
19:25:00  <Axamentia> gah
19:25:11  <LordAzamath> A=CounterStrike
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19:25:15  <fjb> Hello
19:25:18  <saati> what is .ee?
19:25:19  <LordAzamath> hello
19:25:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> estonia
19:25:32  <De_Ghost> i though es is estonia
19:25:33  <LordAzamath> saati: .ee is domain name for Estonia
19:25:36  <Gonozal_VIII> bunnyland
19:25:39  <LordAzamath> es is Spain
19:25:41  <LordAzamath> I think
19:25:48  <saati> yes it is
19:26:10  <LordAzamath> and estonia is ee or sometimes et
19:26:20  <saati> it has two tlds?
19:26:21  <ln-> LordAzamath: wrong
19:26:26  <ln-> it doesn't.
19:26:32  <LordAzamath> very rarely
19:26:32  <ln-> et is the LANGUAGE code.
19:26:39  <LordAzamath> so what
19:26:48  <LordAzamath> I said domain names are ee
19:26:57  * Axamentia wishes musical units where as organized sometimes
19:27:17  <LordAzamath> but estonia has abbrevitation of et too
19:27:41  <saati> okay but the original question was about the tld of your host
19:27:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> what's on the international car signs for estonia?
19:28:06  <Prof_Frink> ln-: And the language code "uk" is Ukranian.
19:28:17  <ben_goodger> Axamentia: decimalising musical notation wouldn't work, unfortunately
19:28:32  <LordAzamath> ofcourse, you don't have United Kingdom language.. :P
19:28:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, decimalise the octave :p
19:28:55  <LordAzamath> what's on the international car signs for estonia?>>> EST
19:28:55  <ben_goodger> .uk does belong to the UK, though
19:28:56  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause3: Holly did that when he was bored
19:28:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> that'll be fun ;)
19:29:06  <Axamentia> ben: very true, decimalising music, would be intresting
19:29:09  <Prof_Frink> ben_goodger: indeed.
19:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause3> holly who?
19:29:21  <VLengoc> ?
19:29:25  <Prof_Frink> Holly.
19:29:28  <LordAzamath> holly dolly
19:29:30  <VLengoc> lol
19:29:40  <Prof_Frink> The computer of the JMC Red Dwarf
19:29:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> LordAzamath: no, that is hello dolly ;)
19:29:43  <VLengoc> ive been installing opensuse.
19:29:55  <saati> why suse
19:29:59  <VLengoc> ubuntu
19:30:03  <VLengoc> was crap
19:30:07  <saati> we have a saying about suse in our language
19:30:08  <saati> suse sose
19:30:13  <VLengoc> k
19:30:14  <saati> it means suse never
19:30:15  <saati> :)
19:30:32  <VLengoc> i tell you what
19:30:55  <VLengoc> it takes along time to boot up ;(
19:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause3> how often do you boot?
19:31:22  <VLengoc> ive just installed it
19:31:26  <VLengoc> on virtual pc 2007
19:31:30  <LordAzamath> Eddi|zuHause3:
19:31:45  <LordAzamath> and that's ON-topic youtube link :P
19:32:06  <Eddi|zuHause3> oh no!!
19:32:15  <VLengoc> what>?
19:32:43  <LordAzamath> I know Eddi|zuHause3, it's my favourite too... NOOT
19:32:45  <LordAzamath> !!
19:33:40  <VLengoc> that vid is just...strange
19:35:25  <ln-> another on-topic yt link:
19:36:00  <VLengoc> opensuse is stil loading
19:36:04  <VLengoc> *sigh*
19:36:30  <Axamentia> Omg that holly folly thing hurts my ears
19:36:58  <LordAzamath> ln-: How come it's on-topic?
19:37:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> VLengoc: you make a test in a virtual pc, and then complain that it is slow? get serious...
19:37:09  <VLengoc> lol
19:37:14  <LordAzamath> it's like.... 20 years old commercial
19:37:27  <LordAzamath> or more
19:37:52  <LordAzamath> anyway, older than me :D
19:38:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> you had commercials 20 years ago?
19:39:09  <VLengoc> lol
19:39:20  <saati> i remember some
19:39:30  <saati> actually i remember one
19:39:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, honestly... here, commercials were considered "western imperialistic brainwashing" or something
19:39:47  <saati> it was about how secure our nuclear power plant was
19:40:10  <saati> after chernobyl they thought they have to tell that to everyone :)
19:40:44  <saati> Eddi|zuHause3: we were in the eastern block too
19:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> radiation from Tschernobyl skipped the GDR :p
19:40:55  <saati> and there were some commercials here
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19:41:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> saati: yes, i know, that is why i was asking
19:41:27  * LordAzamath started 64*64 map
19:41:35  <Eddi|zuHause3> the opinion around here was that socialistic communities do not need commercials
19:42:23  <saati> i dont remember the opinion, just seeing some, and i know from archives there were before i was born too
19:42:47  <saati> not for western thing tough
19:42:52  <saati> things
19:42:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> of course not ;)
19:43:41  <saati> i am glad it collapsed before i was 5
19:44:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> there used to be commercials in the 50s and 60s, but they were abolished
19:45:08  <saati> you lived in the ddr?
19:46:04  <ln->
19:46:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes
19:47:09  <saati> they named a memory type after it :)
19:47:14  <saati> it still survives :)
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19:48:58  <ln-> also DDR:
19:49:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> "Werbefilme wurden ab 1976 nicht mehr im Fernsehen oder Kino ausgestrahlt"
19:53:16  <saati> what does that mean?
19:54:02  <Eddi|zuHause3> means that commercials stopped to be shown in 1976
19:54:12  <saati> ic
19:54:44  <saati> bye
19:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> inofficially, because it makes no sense to show commercials for products that are not available anyway ;) (like you needed to wait up to 18 years to get a car)
19:55:58  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: but wasn't Nintendo advertising Wii in the UK less than 6 months ago despite it not being available
19:56:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't think east german reasoning propagated to japanese companies very much ;)
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20:00:59  <peter1138> "stopped to be shown"? heh
20:05:06  *** yorick [] has quit [Quit:  cya all]
20:10:14  <ln->
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20:21:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> yes, that was the east german airline
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20:29:51  <Wolf01> 'night
20:29:56  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
20:34:24  <ln->
20:39:32  <fjb>
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21:11:22  <LordAzamath> why are everybody so quiet?
21:11:22  <LordAzamath> I'm not that scary, am I?
21:11:31  <Axamentia> lmao
21:14:56  <LordAzamath> ok good night
21:15:06  <LordAzamath> you can now start talking ^^
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21:15:53  <ben_goodger> hmm
21:16:32  <ben_goodger> is there any plan to make openttd's scale more realistic? maybe add more angles to the rendering engine so that corners are turned as smoothly in RCT?
21:16:39  <ln-> no.
21:16:50  <SmatZ> :-)
21:16:51  <ben_goodger> oh.
21:16:56  <ben_goodger> well, that's unfortunate
21:17:22  * SmatZ is often thinking about replying just "no" to a questiong at tt-forums. But then, he decides not to do that...
21:17:37  <ben_goodger> mmm
21:17:59  <ben_goodger> nothing came of the effort to develop a 3d TTD clone by the forum members then
21:18:19  <ben_goodger> also unfortunate
21:18:56  <SmatZ> 3D GUI, or whole 3D map?
21:19:10  <ben_goodger> the whole hog
21:20:35  <ben_goodger> 32-bit on-the-fly-rendered scalable 3D graphics, done in opengl with shiney graphical realism, better physics, etc
21:20:49  <SmatZ> :-)
21:20:50  <ben_goodger> curvy tracks
21:20:51  <Axamentia> how long do you have ben?
21:21:09  <ben_goodger> until about four AM UCT, why?
21:21:27  <ln-> i thought the answer was expected in centimeters.
21:21:31  <Axamentia> It takes a long time to make one model with real pysics, nevermind the engine requiredfor it
21:22:14  <ben_goodger> I was under the impression (from my physics classes) that classical mechanics was reasonably easy
21:22:16  <Axamentia> it would be nice, but a lot of work
21:22:35  <ben_goodger> I could probably assemble a decent movement model in about a week, given data
21:23:23  <Axamentia> And it would have to be deffinatly rendered by the gpu
21:23:38  <ben_goodger> yes. that's the actual hard bit.
21:24:24  <ben_goodger> physics isn't a problem, building a 3d engine from scratch (since nobody could agree to use ogre or blender) _is)
21:24:36  <ben_goodger> ho hum
21:25:03  <Axamentia> 3d engines are not easy to build! most modern games, even use engines by other software houses
21:25:17  <ln-> what would the poor children in africa think about writing a 3d engine from scratch?
21:25:17  <ben_goodger> I just said that
21:26:17  <peter1138> Well, isn't there Transport Empire?
21:26:57  <ben_goodger> ln-: the poor children in africa would need a number of years of training before they understood the term "3d engine"
21:27:51  <ben_goodger> and I think transport empire is what I'm talking about
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21:28:16  <ben_goodger> oh..
21:28:26  <ben_goodger> I thought it was abandoned, but here it is all working again
21:28:57  <ln-> is there any code in Transport Empire yet?
21:29:20  <ben_goodger> can't tell
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21:29:39  <remaxim> hi Belugas, are you somewhere near?
21:29:51  <ben_goodger> you'd need a degree in theology to derive some sort of definite information from the forums if you hadn't taken part in the discussions
21:31:35  <peter1138> Plus they've made it difficult to post there...
21:31:48  <ben_goodger> looks like things are happening
21:31:52  <ben_goodger> and someone has taken charge.
21:32:25  <ben_goodger> now we just need to wait about five years before the project is declared dead again *cough*blackmesasource*cough*
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21:33:57  <ln-> btwbtw, does there happen to be a sort of "terrain library" for drawing tile-based worlds in OpenGL?
21:34:26  <ln-> and handling things like translating mouse coordinates to tile coordinates.
21:36:21  <ben_goodger> ah, yes, here's your rant on it being hard to reply
21:36:36  <ben_goodger> ln-: ogre has that built-in
21:36:56  <ben_goodger> or at least it has a heightmap style thingie that you can link to coordinate placement systems
21:37:59  <ln-> the last time i looked at ogre it was so hard to build and run the sample programs that i decided to wait a few years.
21:38:22  <ben_goodger> depends on your environment
21:38:42  <ben_goodger> reports from my friend seem to suggest that ogre throws rocks at you if you're using VB
21:39:24  <ln-> i use this thing called "linux"
21:39:31  <ben_goodger> VS, rather
21:39:35  <ben_goodger> and, oh
21:39:41  <ben_goodger> I also use linux
21:39:57  <ben_goodger> linux format ran a story on it recently, it didn't seem that difficult to actually program with
21:40:14  <ben_goodger> I haven't tried running the sample programs on linux [nvidia]
21:52:26  <fjb> The next problem will be the number of vehicles in an active TTD game. You have to calculate the physics for some hundred vehicles every tick.
21:52:26  <ben_goodger> well...
21:52:26  <ben_goodger> they can only follow certain paths
21:52:26  <ben_goodger> that removes most of the calculation.
21:52:34  <ben_goodger> the speed is quite easy once you've done that...
21:52:37  <fjb> How many vehicles did you have in your games yet?
21:53:11  <ben_goodger> about three hundred
21:53:33  <fjb> I have senn more in some network games.
21:53:33  <ben_goodger> nobody has yet derived a Competition Commission to prevent me from buying and asset-stripping my competitors
21:54:44  <ben_goodger> there is nothing evil in physics
21:55:14  <fjb> A full 3D OpenTTD would require far more CPU power than the latest shooters.
21:55:25  <ben_goodger> the only things to do are multiplication, division and very basic trigonometric functions if you want those
21:55:27  <Axamentia> fjb agreed
21:55:55  <ben_goodger> I don't see that it would
21:55:59  <Axamentia> even some of the modern fps genre 3d games, struggle, unless played on top end computers
21:56:02  <glx> <fjb> A full 3D OpenTTD would require far more CPU power than the latest shooters. <-- 3D cards are made for that :)
21:56:24  <ben_goodger> openttd has quite a complex acceleration algorithm nowadays, and it manages fine
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21:56:46  <peter1138> Complex and crap
21:56:57  <ben_goodger> well...
21:56:58  <fjb> I don't think that you couls offload everything to the §D card, even if some get physics engines.
21:57:23  <ben_goodger> I think it's only crap considering the scale
21:57:33  <ben_goodger> we have trains the size of office blocks
21:57:43  <Axamentia> The load for 1000+ vechs in motion, would be huge
21:57:44  <Sacro> !seen blathijs
21:57:53  <Sacro> @seen blathijs
21:57:53  <DorpsGek> Sacro: blathijs was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 3 hours, 17 minutes, and 1 second ago: * blathijs has never heard of the term
21:58:03  <ben_goodger> there is also the matter of there only being 45-degree turns and constant uphill grades
21:58:10  <fjb> Civilisation has military units the size of a whole town. Who cares?
21:58:34  <ben_goodger> fjb: well, those military units aren't being asked to move realistically
21:58:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> civilisation was never meant to be scaled :)
21:58:49  <fjb> TTD neither...
21:59:00  <Axamentia> Realistic scale is good, but sometimes artistic license for gameplays sake, makes things more playable
21:59:07  <Eddi|zuHause3> berlin has the size of entire germany ;)
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21:59:38  <fjb> And think about how many tiles a map would require...
21:59:55  <ben_goodger> tiles are for early-nineties sims
21:59:59  <Eddi|zuHause3> civ has no 2048x2048 maps ;)
22:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> TT _is_ an early nineties sim
22:00:29  <ben_goodger> let me introduce you to Cartesian geometry and the decimal system
22:00:35  <ben_goodger> :P
22:01:24  <Eddi|zuHause3> floating point arithmetics is bad for multiplayer
22:01:36  <peter1138> All things for a new game from scratch.
22:01:52  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: counter-strike seems to manage fine
22:02:00  <fjb> And only for a few high end computers.
22:02:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> counterstrike has no 8MB game state to synchronise every tick
22:02:23  <fjb> ben_goodger: Count the movable things in counter strike.
22:02:42  <fjb> How many players are in counterstrike at the same time?
22:02:59  <ben_goodger> fjb: a few hundred moving things tends to be the maximum before it slows down, and you can have about thirty players
22:03:07  <fjb> And how big is the map in a counter strike game?
22:03:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> counterstrike has no dynamically changing map
22:03:44  <Eddi|zuHause3> a 2048x2048 map has 2 million objects before any player even doing anything
22:03:49  <ben_goodger> fjb: it doesn't have a tiled map. it uses the decimal system
22:03:52  <Axamentia> and Npc items tend to have stored location co-ordinated, and are only generated when in view
22:03:57  * SpComb creates a custom hardware ttd acceleration chip
22:04:14  <fjb> ben_goodger: A counterstrike player is equal to a TTD vehicle. Think about counterstrike with 1000 players in one game.
22:04:17  <SmatZ> is Random() needed in CS? everything is handled by the server anyway (the decision if you hit someone)
22:04:30  <ben_goodger> no, it's not
22:04:43  <ben_goodger> a CS player is completely different to a TTD vehicle
22:04:57  <fjb> ben_goodger: Where is the difference?
22:05:06  <ben_goodger> a TTD vehicle is a ridiculously simple thing to make a physics model for. believe me, I'm a physics student
22:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> now again: 100 dynamic objects in CS, several million objects on a TT map
22:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause3> which one is easier to synchronize?
22:05:36  <fjb> ben_goodger: You will write the new physics engine for OpenTTD? Great.
22:05:47  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: TT using a proper game engine would _not_ _be_ _using_ _a_ _map_
22:06:10  <Axamentia> Ben: the physics may be simple, calculating a vast quantity of them and thier locations isnt
22:06:14  <Eddi|zuHause3> ben_goodger: you still have several million trees and houses
22:06:15  <ben_goodger> fjb: no, you can just vastly simplify one of the many open-source ones
22:06:35  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: trees and houses aren't physics objects
22:06:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> that each grow individually
22:07:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> they are part of the game state, that needs synchronizing
22:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause3> every single bit of the game state must be the same on every client
22:08:05  <ben_goodger> hmm
22:08:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> you can't have that with rounding errors
22:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> that turn out differently on every possible CPU
22:08:49  <ben_goodger> sorry, what part of this problem is somehow caused by using a 3d engine?
22:08:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is why you can never ever use floating point arithmetics
22:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> the problem is that you cannot shove that amount of data over the network, so everything must be calculated on each client
22:09:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> in exactly the same way
22:09:48  <ben_goodger> right...
22:10:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> floating point arithmetics cannot guarantee that
22:10:25  <ben_goodger> so how is this only a problem when using a tile-less 3d engine?
22:10:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> when using tiles, you only have integer numbers
22:11:07  <peter1138> tile-less can be integer
22:11:11  <ben_goodger> yes...
22:11:27  <peter1138> you can emulate decimals
22:11:28  <ben_goodger> so when the front of the train is between tiles, or at one end of a tile, what then?
22:11:42  <Prof_Frink> Don't count tiles.
22:11:49  <Prof_Frink> Count blades of grass
22:12:01  <Axamentia> lol
22:12:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> peter1138: yes, but which "established" physics/graphics engine does that?
22:12:10  <ben_goodger> it's a serious question
22:12:19  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause3,  no idea...
22:12:40  <peter1138> ben_goodger, there is no between tiles :)
22:12:50  <ben_goodger> there bloody well is
22:12:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> ben_goodger: currently, a tile is separated into individual steps (like 32)
22:13:03  <ben_goodger> right
22:13:41  <ben_goodger> so the train is in position 542268 and one thirty-second
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22:14:05  <peter1138> Unless by between you mean inside...
22:14:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> ben_goodger: in the gamebalance branch there was introduced a fixed-point arithmetics
22:14:10  <ben_goodger> I do
22:14:37  <ben_goodger> sorry, there's fixed-point as well?
22:14:47  <ben_goodger> I don't know a great deal about the numerical systems of C
22:14:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> it doesn't have anything to do with C
22:15:25  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause3, OpenGL is generally used with floats, but works perfectly well with integers...
22:15:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> fixed point is mainly an integer, where you assume the "0" bit is somewhere in the middle
22:15:43  <ben_goodger> it has everything to do with C, unless you're machine-coding your own numerical system
22:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> so if normal integer is "0000."
22:15:55  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: right... no problems there
22:15:58  <Eddi|zuHause3> fixed point can be "00.00"
22:16:24  <ben_goodger> yep
22:16:26  <peter1138> The only problem is this will not happen in a TTD-based game, heh...
22:16:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> the point does not shift anywhere, like with floating point, where you also encode the position of the point dynamically (exponent)
22:16:45  <ben_goodger> ok
22:17:03  <Eddi|zuHause3> C does not natively offer fixed point arithmetics
22:17:07  <ben_goodger> can you have the point position as 0?
22:17:21  <Eddi|zuHause3> it's purely a user interpretation of the integer type
22:17:32  <ben_goodger> ok then
22:17:45  <peter1138> Remind me what bit of the argument this is about? :p
22:18:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> i am just explaining facts, not arguing ;)
22:19:44  <ben_goodger> peter1138: it's whether using a cartesian decimal system instead of a tile system will introduce random error to multiplayer systems, which must always produce the same calculation result as it is impossible to sync the state every few milliseconds
22:20:48  <peter1138> Right. Not with fixed point or integer arithmetic...
22:20:53  <Eddi|zuHause3> but to come back to your initial thought, how should a "physics engine" improve the way trackbits are stored in the map, without making it exponentially bigger?
22:21:08  <ben_goodger> trackbits? map?
22:22:17  <peter1138> Well, track layout needs to be stored somewhere.
22:22:39  <ben_goodger> oh
22:22:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, you do need a way to store where the track is, which direction it takes, and which track sections are adjacent to it
22:23:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> currently, each tile can have 6 possible "track bits"
22:23:14  <ben_goodger> you keep the track as a vector
22:23:42  <ben_goodger> bezier, probably
22:23:46  <Eddi|zuHause3> fine, but how do you efficiently get a track from the coordinates?
22:24:03  <ben_goodger> I don't follow
22:24:04  <Eddi|zuHause3> to e.g. find out wether you can build something there?
22:24:09  <ben_goodger> oh, right.
22:24:18  <ben_goodger> collision detection
22:24:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> key word there is "efficiently"
22:24:52  <ben_goodger> mmm
22:25:12  <ben_goodger> I don't know how efficient collision detection works, but it must work, otherwise stuff wouldn't be based on it
22:25:23  <peter1138> You can use a hash of all objects which intersect an area (like a tile, really...)
22:25:25  <Eddi|zuHause3> collision detection (of trains) is one of the most time consuming algorithms in openttd
22:25:56  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: not actual collisions ("three die in fireball, humpington transport bankrupted")
22:26:30  <ben_goodger> presumably this slowness results from the fractions-of-a-tile mechanism that is being used
22:26:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it's the same algorithm
22:27:08  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, "fraction of a tile" is the same as "fixed point arithmetics"
22:27:31  <peter1138> Or integer...
22:27:33  <ben_goodger> stuff is generally a lot faster when using vectors. you can use all sorts of complicated mathematical tricks that are beyond my knowledge and eradicate the need for a lot of computation
22:28:03  <ben_goodger> you could, for instance, evaluate the track function
22:29:03  <ben_goodger> so if the track is of form y=23.4x² and you want to check (12,3.7634) you can put that x value in and see if it comes up with that y
22:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> "the track"... how do you model switches and crossings then?
22:29:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r12163 /trunk/src/vehicle.cpp: -Fix [FS#1705]: if a train is 'stopping' when entering a depot, do not let it leave again
22:29:45  <ben_goodger> i.e. does 23.4*12² = 3.7634? obviously not
22:30:16  <ben_goodger> I'm not sure how switches and such are modelled
22:30:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> ben_goodger: the problem with collision detection that way is, that objects extend in more than one dimension
22:31:18  <Eddi|zuHause3> a track has 2 dimensions, first the direction of travel, and second the width of the track
22:31:20  <ben_goodger> Eddi|zuHause3: yes. you would need to find the equations of the parallel line
22:31:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> a vehicle has 3 dimensions
22:31:50  <peter1138> Finding equations... heh
22:31:53  <Gonozal_VIII> all trains have the same width
22:31:59  <fjb> No
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22:32:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> and you have to check these equations for every single combination of objects you have
22:32:20  <ben_goodger> finding the equations wouldn't be that difficult
22:32:38  <ben_goodger> anyway, my knowledge of this is exceedingly vague. you should ask
22:32:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> that is O(n^2) in the number of objects
22:32:56  <ben_goodger> you should ask  PJayTycy, rather
22:33:06  <ben_goodger> and you should also see
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22:33:50  <Eddi|zuHause3> this last fact is the really problematic one
22:33:51  * ben_goodger wanders off humming
22:36:25  * ben_goodger returns with overdiluted apple squash
22:36:29  <ben_goodger> what last fact?
22:36:45  <Eddi|zuHause3> the O(n^2) complexity
22:37:15  <ben_goodger> ah
22:37:41  <Gonozal_VIII> btw how is the position of a vehicle on the map stored?
22:37:58  <ben_goodger> where f(n) = O(n²) what is f(n), O and n?
22:38:20  <ben_goodger> Gonozal_VIII: it should be stored as a distance along a track in a particular direction
22:38:52  <Eddi|zuHause3>
22:39:13  <ben_goodger> well, yes...
22:39:24  <ben_goodger> but what are the variables referring to
22:39:25  <ben_goodger> ?
22:39:44  <ben_goodger> anyway, it doesn't much matter
22:39:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> n is the number of (vector-)objects in the game
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22:40:20  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: v->x_position or something
22:40:35  <Gonozal_VIII> 16 bit?
22:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: and a GetVehicleFromTile() function
22:41:08  <ben_goodger> we're abandoning tiles, remember
22:41:12  <Eddi|zuHause3> Gonozal_VIII: ever heard of grep?
22:41:16  <ben_goodger> or do you mean in the current codebase?
22:42:05  <Gonozal_VIII> ok.. vectors
22:42:32  <Eddi|zuHause3> ben_goodger: actually, you the only thing you can do is redefining the "resolution" of tiles, as long as you have integers, you have tiles
22:42:54  <ben_goodger> well, yes
22:42:59  <ben_goodger> but you needn't put anything on them
22:43:19  <Gonozal_VIII> you do
22:43:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> and you still have 10 million trees to put somewhere
22:43:35  <ben_goodger> and there are multiple tile resolutions operating simultaneously
22:43:44  <ben_goodger> anyway, it's not terribly relevant
22:47:27  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, i am not fundamentally against vector operations, but you still have not shown any evidence that you can do this remotely as efficient as the current system
22:48:38  <Gonozal_VIII> pathfinding could work good with vectors
22:49:22  <Gonozal_VIII> but drawing and storing all the stuff.. i don't know
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23:09:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12164 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r12137, FS#1775]: Variable scope bug crept in
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23:23:45  <dih> @seen Bjarni
23:23:46  <DorpsGek> dih: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 1 day, 2 hours, 10 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Bjarni> besides spelled in a stupid way
23:23:50  <dih> :-(
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23:51:17  <fjb> Is there a maximum number of stations per town?
23:53:20  <Tekky> I think there is the maximum of one airport per town.
23:53:39  <ln-> per company
23:53:51  <Tekky> but I don't know of any limit of train stations or bus stops.
23:53:57  <fjb> I know, only two airports. But I thought about bus stops.
23:55:59  <Sionide> there's a limit when it runs out of names isn't there?
23:56:08  <Sionide> rename some stations to other things..
23:56:12  <Sionide> or has that been fixed?
23:57:16  <fjb> That has been fixed.
23:58:51  * Sionide is quite behind the times
23:58:58  <Sionide> it's hard to keep up with small changes like that!

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