Log for #openttd on 8th April 2008:
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01:42:19  <gebi> hi all :)
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07:19:15  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12623 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (5 files): [NoAI] -Add: support for GetLastError in AIOrder.
07:19:41  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r12624 /trunk/src/ (rail.h table/railtypes.h): -Codechange: Make drawing of catenary an attribute of rail types, instead of deciding by the rail type directly.
07:24:45  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12625 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (12 files): [NoAI] -Add: support for GetLastError in AIRoad. Patch by Morloth.
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10:57:54  <HMage> ЌяЌя, всеЌ прОвет
10:58:31  <peter1138> realy
10:58:38  * Brianetta nods, sagely
10:59:01  <Brianetta> всеЌ прОвет indeed.
10:59:14  <Forked> I see question marks
10:59:31  <Brianetta> Forked: You need a font with Cyrillic character in it to see them.
10:59:50  <ln-> and UTF-8.
10:59:50  <Forked> I don't think that would really help me =)
11:00:00  <Brianetta> If you're in MS land, there's an Ariel unicode one with all sorts of fun characters.
11:00:11  <Brianetta> It really helps one be more expressive with smileys.
11:00:18  <Noldo> :D
11:00:21  <Brianetta> Especially the aboriginal Canadian characters.
11:00:38  <Forked> I take it as an "it's already translated to something I can understand" thing. I would read it as all questionmarks anyway
11:01:32  <Brianetta> Forked: The advantage of seeing the actual characters is that you can take a stab at the language, for pasting into dodgy online language tools.
11:01:40  <bowman> in ms land, mirc has auto font linking if your chosen font lacks the unicode ranges it encounters
11:01:51  <Brianetta> It's worth knowing if it's Russian, Korean or Bengali...
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11:07:41  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12626 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: [NoAI] -Fix r12623: use tabs in front of lines, not spaces
11:13:50  <HMage> Brianetta: I sometimes stumble upon people that think that russian is something like this -- Íå îÞÚáÚòåñÌ â âûáîðå ðîóòåðà!
11:14:27  <HMage> it's from russian forum that sends windows-1252 encoding in it's headers, but internet exploder defaults to regional settings (windows-1251)
11:14:30  <ln-> Brianetta: Ariel is the mermaid, Arial is the font.
11:14:43  <peter1138> windows-1252 should be banned
11:14:58  <peter1138> (and all other non-utf-8 encodings, of course)
11:14:58  <Brianetta> ln-: Whatever.  I use Helvetica, because I live in the Free World.
11:15:07  <HMage> so people from outside ex-USSR see this gibberish, and people using anything besides IE see that gibberish too.
11:15:41  <HMage> and those who don't speak russian think it's genuine russian text exactly how it should ook like ;D
11:15:54  <Ammler> Brianetta: hmm, Helvetica is from Helvetia, isn't?
11:21:33  * HMage typed that gibberish into http://www.artlebedev.ru/tools/decoder/ --> "Не ПшОбОтесь в выбПре рПутера!"
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11:23:02  <SpComb> Brianetta: do you have any experience with the compatibility of the openttd console across OpenTTD versions?
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11:23:37  <SpComb> i.e. does autopilot have to do things differently based on the OpenTTD version, or is that not an issue at all, or do you use workarounds?
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11:35:59  <Brianetta> SpComb: A little
11:36:18  <SpComb> how big of an issue is it?
11:36:41  <Brianetta> Not particularly.  There are some commands missing in older versions, and screenshots have gone missing now.
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11:47:12  <shodan> hey, I've got an idea that might be a good addition to openttd
11:47:22  <shodan> where's the best place to have a chat about it?
11:47:31  <Noldo> the forums propably
11:47:43  <Noldo> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=32
11:47:49  <shodan> cheers
11:48:25  <shodan> do the devs tend to play around there?
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11:54:44  <kloopy> shodan, yeah they do... what's the idea though? :)
11:55:08  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: truebrain * r12627 /branches/noai/src/ai/api/ (5 files): [NoAI] -Fix: last few commits missed some comments around enums
11:58:51  <SpComb> shodan: you'll get faster feedback here
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12:17:30  <shodan> hi again
12:17:40  <shodan> been searching the forums, I don't think it's been suggested before
12:17:49  <shodan> I was thinking of a multiplayer component
12:19:41  <Rubidium> and what would such component do?
12:20:16  <peter1138> componentise!
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12:22:36  <SpComb> shodan: component?
12:23:30  <shodan> oops sorry, distracted in another window :)
12:23:41  <shodan> well, I was thinking along the lines of an account server
12:24:02  <Vikthor> that was already suggested
12:24:08  <shodan> not required, but if you are part of it you don't have to type in your details all the time
12:24:09  <SpComb> depending on what you mean with an "account server", things in a similar vein have been discussed
12:24:16  <shodan> + stats could be graphed
12:24:17  <shodan> hmm
12:24:25  <shodan> oh
12:24:33  <shodan> was it a positive discussion?
12:24:49  <SpComb> well, it was along the lines of having a registration system so you could ban people easier
12:25:14  <shodan> I'm a webdev by trade now, I was thinking openttd could make calls to a webservice while joining a multiplayer server if account creds have been supplied
12:25:35  <shodan> 've not touched C for a long time though so haven't looked into the openttd part
12:25:54  <shodan> I'm not thinking about 'global' bans but it's a logical extension
12:26:02  <Ammller> Isn't there a wikipage about that, or a tt-thread
12:26:06  <Rubidium> looks like (way) too much effort for little gain
12:27:11  <shodan> hmm
12:27:12  <Rubidium> cause you're essentially blocking out the good guys (that start OTTD for the first time) and you do only make trashing games slightly harder
12:27:23  <Rubidium> slighty being *very* slightly
12:27:32  <shodan> how so?
12:27:48  <Rubidium> well, new users have to register somewhere
12:27:54  <shodan> oh
12:28:01  <Rubidium> which makes it hard
12:28:02  <shodan> I wasn't thinking of it as a mandatory thing
12:28:15  <SpComb> then it wouldn't be very effective for stopping trolls
12:28:17  <Rubidium> bad guys just register loads of accounts and trash lots of servers
12:28:28  <shodan> yeah, I've seen that once
12:28:35  <SpComb> the technical issues aren't that hard to solve, the problem is with the social issues
12:28:52  <SpComb> as for stats... counting those reliably would be difficult
12:28:59  <shodan> i understand but I don't think we're on the same page, I'm not thinking about an account-management kinda thing
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12:30:17  <shodan> almost like the notion of ranked/unranked servers
12:30:38  <SpComb> I was thinking of BF2 as well
12:30:47  <SpComb> and wondering how they handle it
12:31:04  <SpComb> OpenTTD's open-source, so you can't just rely on obfucsating the server and hoping that nobody takes the effort to crack it
12:31:13  <shodan> hehe
12:31:29  <shodan> good on 'em if they do, ruins the fun for them
12:31:30  <Ammller> maybe, we just need a "global" black- and whitelist (whitelisted are those who identified over pw or key)
12:31:38  <shodan> it'd be like playing in god-mode
12:31:41  <SpComb> Ammller: karma :P
12:32:04  <SpComb> if you say "PlayerName++" in a chat, then they get more karma, vv for "PlayerName--"
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12:33:25  <Ammller> I am quite sure, someone already did a proposal for that...
12:33:55  <Gekz> :o
12:35:11  <SpComb> entirely likely
12:35:30  <shodan> eg, a server is started and the 'enable global user account' tick-box is selected. If a client has defined their account details, they can log on while connecting such a server. the server can tick the account server now and then with things like client joined, client parted, occassional individual stats
12:36:18  <shodan> there's a slight protection against fraudsters then as the server can then compare connection time vs information received
12:36:19  * Rubidium might have very good stats pretty quickly ;)
12:36:40  <shodan> I realise it's pretty frivilous but the idea is to increase the community aspect
12:37:17  <Rubidium> a community without proper *long term* administration is going to fail horribly
12:37:33  <shodan> you guys ;)
12:37:53  <shodan> glass half full/empty
12:38:05  <SpComb> it's a very difficult thing to implement
12:39:23  <shodan> I guess I don't know the openttd side
12:39:50  <shodan> as for the external webside, POP
12:40:33  <HMage> do I understand correctly that this idea ties an individual to a specific account for the purposes of filtering malicious people on public servers?
12:40:56  <shodan> HMage: not in my idea
12:41:36  <SpComb> ok, well, it's easy to implement, but very difficult to design
12:41:47  <shodan> The only example I can think of for something similar would be for BF2
12:42:07  <shodan> main page: http://bf2s.com/ ; detailed player stats: http://bf2s.com/player/44336562/
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12:42:10  <HMage> shodan: BF2 has the luxury of tying individuals to their CD-Keys.
12:42:15  <shodan> yeah
12:42:37  <HMage> open-source game can't have that
12:42:38  <shodan> for such a system like this, people would sign up their own account - non-mandatory
12:42:53  <shodan> they could have more than one if they wanted
12:43:14  <HMage> shodan: can you give me a bottom line what benefits this will have for me as a player?
12:43:42  <shodan> if you were interested in comparing how you play compared to other players, this could help
12:44:09  <Ammller> HMage: you do not need to enter passwords for servers or your company anymore :-)
12:44:17  <HMage> shodan: this comparison would be true only if server settings are 100% exact
12:44:43  <HMage> plus -- there are modified servers in existence
12:44:51  <shodan> frivilous stats would be more general, like time played, fav vehicles, fav servers, whether/where you are currently logged in
12:45:05  <HMage> ah, ok
12:45:42  <shodan> and the default pic company/manager name is what enthused me because it's such a damn handy addition! :)
12:45:55  <shodan> i always hated changing those
12:46:39  <HMage> shodan: if you need default pic and manager name only, I'd guess this feature will be finished a lot sooner :)
12:46:59  <HMage> ie, feature for saving default company name, manager's pic and manager name
12:47:00  <shodan> every year stats could be taken, for instance vehicles built in that year, their type etc - from this you could see trends and plot them to compare
12:47:14  <shodan> for instance, about when does a player usually add a few planes to their company
12:47:28  <shodan> or how long does it take a player to make their first m
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12:48:15  <HMage> shodan: still, first million and when planes are started to be used varies a lot from server settings, even a custom map would influence this
12:48:30  <shodan> yep
12:48:37  <shodan> every game is diff
12:48:38  <HMage> so, to gather a good representative stats, player'll need to play a hundred games
12:48:44  <shodan> i'm not only talking multiplayer either
12:49:13  <Rubidium> and who's going to host the massive datacenter to handle that information?
12:49:18  <shodan> could also be used for trends like most common GRFs, least-used vehicles
12:49:33  <shodan> Rubidium: ah, well, that was something I wanted to find out
12:49:49  <shodan> how many openttd players are there etc
12:49:50  <HMage> game's free, hosting is not
12:50:02  <shodan> yeah
12:50:28  <shodan> but having to worried about super hosting wouldn't be required for quite some time
12:50:29  <Rubidium> favorite vehicle would cause all bought vehicles to be send to the server in some sort of string representation (vehicle IDs are pointless)
12:50:52  <shodan> esp. with a sign-in system
12:51:09  <shodan> i was thinking every year the game could generate these stats and upload
12:51:20  <shodan> the server only needs to store the historical data and mine that
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12:51:34  <HMage> shodan: did you ponder how much stats and how big it'll be per player per year per game?
12:52:00  <shodan> yep
12:52:05  <shodan> I'm thinking pretty small
12:52:35  <shodan> if the data was generated at year end in game then sent to server or stored for sending later on...
12:52:36  <HMage> I still don't like the idea of having another centralised server
12:52:50  <shodan> hmm
12:52:52  <Rubidium> quit
12:53:12  <shodan> Rubidium: ?
12:53:18  <HMage> shodan: hint, I'm not a dev, I'm just trying to help you formulate
12:53:21  <shodan> forget a /?
12:53:25  <shodan> HMage: please do
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12:53:53  <shodan> but I don't quite understand your concern over it because it's not necessary for game play or has any on-game effect
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12:54:34  <shodan> i mean, banning by logged-in user account could be a later development but that would only be useful for 'ranked' servers
12:54:41  <HMage> I'm placing myself in dev's shoes. I'm gonna need a separate database, I'll need to maintain that, not to mention to develop all this.
12:54:46  <shodan> (ranked used for lack of better term)
12:55:13  <shodan> in terms of dev work, I'm volunteering to offer my services for the web side of things
12:55:36  <shodan> I've not touched C for a long time though
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12:58:08  <HMage> shodan: it's a long-term feature, this means a volunteer will need to stay on this feature for long time. I'd not risk implementin this feature to see it abandoned. I'm not suggesting you would quit for malicious reasons, but things happen. I had to quit volunteering for another game project just because I suddenly have negative free time per day.
12:58:33  <HMage> for over two months and things aren't gonna change
12:58:44  <HMage> so I'd understand, for example, if devs would play on safe side
12:59:27  <HMage> sorry, no offense. I might have sounded harsh.
13:00:26  <Rubidium> shodan: nah, screen was misbehaving on me together with the internet connection
13:02:36  <HMage> the idea is good, so good that it's been proposed before numerous times. it's the technical and management details that prevent this from happening.
13:02:47  <HMage> yet
13:04:32  <Rubidium> the stats would need a server with enough space, which means it isn't one of 'ours'.
13:05:03  <Rubidium> making the stats as a company is tricky too because if you make money Atari might have a reason to kill OTTD
13:06:06  <Rubidium> the whole authentication stuff seems interesting, but then people want to allow banning based on that system... but that will not work, so they are still not happy with the system
13:07:57  <HMage> I'd simplify. Just a button with a textbox in server list. 'Your client id is: <128bit hex>' -- text. 'Generate new client id' -- button.
13:08:05  <Rubidium> and it means there needs to be some authentication server with registration.
13:08:17  <HMage> no logging in, no passwords
13:08:20  <Rubidium> HMage: people post that file in bug reports
13:08:44  <shodan> (I'm here still, reading and thinking!)
13:08:49  <HMage> Rubidium: erm. what?
13:09:47  <HMage> Rubidium: I'm not sure what you said, sorry.
13:10:06  <Rubidium> that id is in the config, which gets posted in bugreports
13:10:30  <Rubidium> unless you're going to write even more config files and such
13:11:40  <HMage> I see. Is it generated randomly?
13:11:49  <shodan> so why not a traditional web signup?
13:11:51  <Rubidium> not quite either
13:11:59  <HMage> I mean, is it unique enough to be used as a tie for stats?
13:12:00  <shodan> that way it's still definately an opt-in process
13:12:07  <Rubidium> HMage: probably not
13:12:38  <Rubidium> shodan: stats needs somebody to donate a server+bandwidth for infinity
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13:13:43  <shodan> yeah
13:14:07  <shodan> I have personal hosting that would suffice for a while with a max cap of users
13:14:10  <HMage> shodan: because user accounts are not that necessary, plus people will want to ban by username. That's security through obscurity since nothing stops the person from registering a new account.
13:14:14  <shodan> not a dedicated machine or anything
13:15:01  <Rubidium> not to mention that security though obscurity is worse than no security at all
13:15:04  <HMage> making it a little less personal will get rid of the wish to ban by client_id, since it's so easy (1 click!) to generate one
13:15:27  <HMage> to generate new one*
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13:15:39  <SpComb> well, the register-a-new-account can't be something that you do with two clicks of the mouse
13:15:50  <SpComb> and if you were to tie that in with some kind of reputation system, it might work
13:15:54  <HMage> but won't stop malicious people
13:16:08  <Rubidium> SpComb: registering a gmail account doesn't even require clicking!
13:16:12  <SpComb> if you make it difficult enough most of them will stop, and it doesn't need to be *that* difficult
13:16:15  <shodan> hmm, i still don't like the idea of an optional system being used to affect game play (ban/kick or whatever)
13:16:31  <shodan> apart from the company details being populated by a webservice call
13:16:33  <SpComb> Rubidium: I'm willing to bet that after registering their fifth gmail account most trolls would give up
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13:17:05  <HMage> shodan: that's the management detail that kicks in. This method of identification just asks for a ban feature
13:17:07  <SpComb> settings like manager name/face/etc could be implemented client-side
13:17:52  <SpComb> as for stats, the issue is that it would be pretty darn hard to keep them uncorruptable, so it would be difficult to have a top-ten list or such
13:18:23  <Rubidium> again, it would require administration
13:18:26  <HMage> and since ban feature isn't reliable unlike current paid games provide, it's better to not have it.
13:18:47  <SpComb> but informational things like favourite server etc... well... those could be client-side as well
13:18:47  <shodan> but what about offline-play tracking too?
13:18:58  <glx> offline is offline
13:19:08  <shodan> SpComb: yep, but harder to share and compare to other players
13:19:09  <SpComb> instead of the paid-game thing you could have karma/reputation tracking/ISK/web of trust
13:19:10  <HMage> in offline you can cheat :)
13:19:30  <SpComb> shodan: the client could hand them over to the stats server, the openttd server wouldn't really need to do anything
13:19:52  <HMage> SpComb: that brings the inequality problem. I'm a new user and I have the karma of potential malicious user unless I prove otherwise.
13:20:06  <glx> <SpComb> settings like manager name/face/etc could be implemented client-side <-- and you can already save and load face from config
13:20:26  <glx> same for player name in MP
13:20:31  <Rubidium> which you can't because you're already banned
13:21:15  <Rubidium> therefor, it lowers the number of 'bad quys' a little, but it stops 'new guys' from using multiplayer games.
13:21:25  <Rubidium> ergo... bad idea
13:22:09  <Rubidium> and all games with not karma limit would be infested with people trashing games and such
13:22:42  <glx> the only "safe" thing is server password and company password
13:23:16  <HMage> shodan: bear with us :)
13:23:26  <Rubidium> + someone who's actually doing the administration of the server
13:23:42  <Rubidium> and not someone who starts a server and doesn't look back at his/her server
13:23:53  <Rubidium> like probably 165 of the 175 servers do
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13:24:58  <HMage> shodan: stats would need to be a little less centralised. For example, generated from logs (like quake 3 has via third-party tools)
13:25:24  <HMage> and saved on client's computer
13:25:32  <HMage> in html, for example
13:26:08  <HMage> you still can compare with your friends
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13:29:18  <SpComb> zero-karma should still let you play, trolls would just quickly get negative karma
13:29:53  <SpComb> and as I said, it would be perfectly possible to just make a new account, but I think as long as it's not entirely trivial, most people would just stop doing it pretty quickly
13:30:03  <SpComb> not sure what benefits positive karma would give you
13:30:20  <SpComb> servers/companies that require positive karma to join would be a bit problematic
13:31:13  <SpComb> the point is, you don't need to make it impossible to troll to stop the trolls
13:31:22  <SpComb> you just need to make it slightly harder
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13:33:06  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12628 /trunk/src/ (order_cmd.cpp order_gui.cpp): -Fix: TTDP compatible non-stop wasn't handled properly.
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13:34:06  <Rubidium> slightly harder means people can't just start OTTD and start playing a MP game
13:34:20  <HMage> SpComb: you know, you underestimate trolls. If you make registration too hard, normal people will get affected.
13:34:44  <HMage> This kind of situation is in CD copy-protection business. WTH I need to insert a CD to play?
13:35:00  <glx> use a nocd :)
13:35:06  <HMage> not to mention I'll have problems if I use SCSI cd.
13:35:27  <shodan> good discussion
13:35:28  <HMage> or through some other controller
13:36:09  <HMage> most copy protections even requires you to use IDE drive if you have one IDE and one SCSI
13:36:10  <SpComb> after registering and playing for an evening or two you would be in a good enough standing to not ever worry about it anymore
13:36:14  <SpComb> a player only has to register once
13:36:15  <HMage> even require*
13:36:31  <HMage> SpComb: where? on troll-infested servers?
13:36:36  <shodan> may I ask, are the people in discussion here from the open source/linux world?
13:36:46  <HMage> I am
13:36:56  <HMage> but I'm not in discussion :P
13:37:13  <SpComb> HMage: I doubt trolls would get very much enjoyment out of trolling each other
13:37:40  <HMage> SpComb: one is enough, you know :)
13:37:46  <hylje> SpComb: that's what 4chan is fueled by, don't underestimate it
13:37:47  <Rubidium> SpComb: so IF I play one evening nice, I can play bad the next evening (rinse'n'repeat)
13:37:59  <glx> HMage: because most virtual drivers are scsi ones
13:38:05  <SpComb> perhaps the karma-concept is too complicated
13:38:17  <SpComb> e.g. BF2 has a vote-kick, but I've never actually used it myself
13:38:29  <HMage> glx: I know, but that's exactly how translates to customer, he is restricted with what he can do.
13:38:32  <SpComb> but I know it's abuseable as well
13:38:38  <Rubidium> three bad guys, two good -> byebye good guys
13:38:45  <shodan> this is good discussion (the best I've seen in an open source env before)
13:38:55  <Rubidium> easy way to kill all underpopulated servers though
13:38:57  <HMage> There's a limit. Customer can say "I'll play another game then, if this requires so much hassle."
13:39:00  <SpComb> Rubidium: would you want to play on a server that has more bad guys that good guys anyways?
13:39:13  <SpComb> HMage: they only have to register once
13:39:24  <SpComb> it's not like they have to register again every time they want to play
13:39:51  <SpComb> if registration is optional, you'd need some incentive to register though
13:40:37  <Ammller> well, best thing is to have MANY admins with rcon, so the server is always under watching eyes. :-)
13:41:01  <Rubidium> SpComb: how long does it take 3 people to join a 2 people server?
13:41:05  <Ammller> ir you trust someone, give him rcon...
13:41:11  <Maedhros> or even one person joining three times
13:42:00  <shodan> if they are logged in, that can be checked
13:42:01  <SpComb> Rubidium: organized trolling is an issue, it's not possible to come up with a solution that won't fail in the face of a determined, organized group of people with enough time on their hands
13:42:15  <HMage> SpComb: as an admin, I'm free to do what I wish with my server, so to get rid of trolls I'll ban by karma. I'll get karma of the first troll I see and ban by it. Incidentally, he'll have the karma of a newbie since he'd just registered.
13:42:43  <shodan> again, i think a different system is being discussed here, this is a user management system under discussion
13:42:57  <HMage> this procedure is easy to come up with, and I'm sure 90% of admins will do
13:43:00  <Ammller> but advantage would now be, if we could ban that troll too, without seeing him on our server :-)
13:43:09  <Rubidium> (which is as usually leading to nowhere)
13:43:40  <HMage> shodan: client authentication is tied to user management, you know :)
13:43:41  <SpComb> HMage: you wouldn't ban a user because they have zero karma, you would ban them if they start trolling, which would cause their karma to drop
13:44:05  <shodan> haha but what if that system you are authenticating to is seperate to the game
13:44:21  <HMage> SpComb: I don't want to see any trolls. Since this troll will register himself a new account easily.
13:44:33  <HMage> Since, ... easily, I'll ban by karma.
13:44:44  <Ammller> HMage: he needs also a new IP
13:44:58  <Ammller> thats not that easy for eveyone
13:44:59  <HMage> Ammller: disconnect from his provider and connect
13:45:07  <HMage> use socks proxy
13:45:08  <HMage> etc
13:45:12  <HMage> lots of tools for that
13:45:16  <HMage> and very easy to use
13:45:23  <SpComb> I do believe that needing to register a new account (get new dynamic IP, new name, new gmail, etc etc) is enough bother that most people would be dissuaded by it
13:45:37  <Ammller> indeed
13:45:42  <HMage> SpComb: most normal people, do you know the mentality of a troll?
13:45:45  <Rubidium> (except the trolls)
13:46:09  <SpComb> I'm guessing based on what I've seen of them, I don't play enough OpenTTD online to really know how it works in practice
13:46:22  <HMage> Rubidium: I remember you being a server admin, is that correct?
13:46:42  <HMage> openttd server*
13:46:49  <SpComb> you just have to remove the motivation that the trolls have
13:47:17  <Rubidium> if you mean by that that I had a MP server running a few times, then yes... if you mean it was for something more stable than testing desyncs/masterserver changes, then no
13:47:19  <SpComb> if they have to constantly spend five minutes creating a new account every time they mess up one game, ...
13:47:39  <SpComb> compared to now where they can just join the next server and do it again
13:48:04  <Rubidium> SpComb: the more they have to do to troll, the more they like to troll because it gives them more status in their troll-world.
13:48:16  <Rubidium> so making it harder might actually increase the number of troll-attacks
13:48:22  <SpComb> is the OpenTTD-troll community really that organized? ^^
13:48:23  <Ammller> another "good" troll protection is using nightlies, we had only 2 bans since I know at #openttdcoop
13:48:26  <Ammller> ;-)
13:49:32  <shodan> I have been an admin/mod at a big australian forum for a long time, http://pcpowerplay.com.au/forum
13:49:37  <HMage> http://www.urban75.com/Mag/troll.html
13:49:43  <SpComb> that's the negative karma aspect... now if you came up with something for positive karma, you might be even further along
13:49:47  <shodan> I can't see trolls being that prevalent, esp in a niche game like openttd
13:50:51  <HMage> shodan: I remember times when every public game would have a screwed terrain
13:51:10  <HMage> trolls would start a new company, spend bucks on terrain, make the company bankrupt, rinse, repeat
13:51:16  <SpComb> that's usenet trolls, which is quite different from OpenTTD trolls
13:51:25  <SpComb> I gather the way openttd trolling works is that you destroy the landscape in some way
13:51:25  <HMage> I know, wrong url
13:52:02  <HMage> then we should use another term perhaps?
13:52:07  <HMage> hooligans? vandals?
13:52:09  <SpComb> hmm... you could have something with the vote-kick whereby the number of votes needed to kick someone depends on how strong their company is
13:52:15  <SpComb> vandals is good
13:52:42  <SpComb> so to kick someone who has fifty trains, you would need everyone to agree
13:52:57  <SpComb> to kick someone who doesn't have a single train and the only thing they've done is landscaping, you'd only need a couple votes
13:53:15  <shodan> but that's out of scope for a stats system :)
13:53:27  <HMage> I know, shodan :)
13:53:31  <SpComb> yeah, I'm not really talking about the same thing you are anymore
13:53:55  <HMage> that's the normal that topic slides from subject to subject
13:54:01  <HMage> that's normal*
13:54:14  <shodan> yeah :)
13:54:18  <HMage> as for stats, I'd say we don't need log in system
13:54:29  <shodan> oooh, I'm on openttdcoop TS for the first time
13:54:32  <shodan> I wish I spoke dutch
13:54:36  <HMage> :D
13:54:43  <HMage> say something in english
13:55:00  <SpComb> and if someone is kicked that way, then it affects how they can join other servers
13:55:14  <SpComb> I figure that might be a working system
13:55:24  <HMage> SpComb: it's a good idea
13:55:34  <SpComb> take the two-players-playing-on-a-server-three-vandals-join thing
13:55:46  <SpComb> we assume the two players have built up their networks and are actively playing
13:55:57  <hylje> (a)social networks
13:56:07  <SpComb> the three trolls would first need to play and build a succesful network to compete with the other two before they could have any chance of vote-kicking them out
13:56:18  <HMage> SpComb: there's a potential issue of abuse of this system
13:56:50  <SpComb> specific scenarios?
13:57:05  <Gekz> some guy has all the trains
13:57:08  <Gekz> and kicks his competitors
13:57:13  <Gekz> just because hes a homo.
13:57:14  <SpComb> if he wants to play alone...
13:57:24  <HMage> on a public server
13:57:27  <HMage> alone
13:57:36  <Gekz> thats what single player is for
13:57:37  <HMage> public server+alone don't mix I think :)
13:57:54  <Gekz> better idea: server admin with /kick for noobs
13:57:56  <Gekz> the end.
13:57:57  <SpComb> well, you would measure the succesful-network of both the kick-voter and the kick-voted
13:59:01  <SpComb> Gekz: yes, and that probably works fine for servers where you constantly have admins hanging around
13:59:04  <HMage> another scenario: two people join, play with each other, wait till other players leave their companies, start vandalising and kicking all new players
13:59:10  <SpComb> and that's a valid solution
13:59:36  <Gekz> you could limit it to one kick per 10 years
13:59:39  <HMage> but it's a little far-fetched
13:59:57  <Gekz> or better yet
14:00:05  <Gekz> just disable terraforming and land purchasing
14:00:08  <SpComb> well hey, we're getting the trolls to actually play the game now
14:00:09  <Gekz> make it "realistic"
14:00:17  <SpComb> I'd say that's a better position than what we have right now
14:00:21  <Gekz> slap them with a fine
14:00:24  <Gekz> :P
14:00:31  <SpComb> where they just join and vandalise... as opposed to joining, playing, and then vandalising
14:00:54  <HMage> I've just been thinking about what Gekz spoke of, what about limiting number of terraforming per year?
14:01:07  <HMage> since most games don't need any heavy terraforming for short periods of time
14:01:25  <HMage> say, 20 tiles per year are allowed, you build up your limit if you don't use it
14:01:34  <Gekz> cool
14:01:38  <Gekz> patchpatchpatch
14:01:45  <Belugas> or another suggestion i liked, when you dig, you will have to dump dirt somewhere else :)
14:01:51  <SpComb> ...leave a client idling for twenty years and then boom
14:01:55  <Gekz> Belugas: the sea
14:01:56  <Gekz> the end.
14:02:08  <Belugas> well... that just makes new land :P
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14:02:31  <HMage> SpComb: well, twenty years is longer than 1 month :)
14:02:41  * SpComb thinks that the vote-kick idea has potential
14:02:50  <Gekz> potential to be abused
14:03:10  <HMage> plus give the admin a config option to tweak the number per year, and disable accumulation
14:03:15  *** GoneWacko [~gonewacko@adsl-58.36.Static.ssp.fi] has quit [Quit: You just lost the game]
14:03:22  <HMage> ability to disable accumulation*
14:03:53  <Gekz> lol
14:04:04  <Gekz> 30 a year is fine
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14:04:11  <Gekz> and you could make it accumulate to max 100
14:04:15  <Gekz> or whatever
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14:04:37  <HMage> good idea too.
14:04:55  <Gekz> you could make it that if someone terraforms too much in a cities land, they get a restriction
14:05:04  <Gekz> and they cant purchase land or terraform there
14:05:05  <Gekz> :P
14:05:09  * Gekz is cruel.
14:05:27  <HMage> SpComb: vote-kick is a working idea, quake 3 had vote-kick and there wasn't much grief
14:05:45  <Gekz> HMage: quake3 has servres with 30 people
14:05:47  <Gekz> not just 3
14:05:50  <HMage> there was no weight of the vote, though
14:06:03  <Gekz> plus, you cant grief on quake3
14:06:08  <Gekz> you can just get pwned and cry
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14:06:12  <SpComb> I think it might work particularly well with OpenTTD because vandals affect all players, and you can have heuristics to detect who might be trolling and who might not be
14:06:14  <Gekz> there is no comparison
14:06:41  <Gekz> with enough safeguards, the kick systemm could work
14:06:42  <HMage> Gekz: erm, right. still, I remember using vote-kick for some occasions
14:07:03  <Gekz> such as once per 10 years
14:07:05  <SpComb> but it does open up the build-up-an-empire-and-then-votekick-every-new-person-out
14:07:06  <HMage> because people connected and used slots while standing there
14:07:21  <HMage> and doing nothing
14:07:21  <SpComb> Gekz: with good enough heuristics
14:07:23  <Gekz> SpComb: dont give someone an advantage over others
14:07:26  <SpComb> what kind of actions does vandalism involve?
14:07:29  <Gekz> you just dont allow kicks for the first 10 years
14:07:32  <Gekz> erm
14:07:34  <Gekz> first 1 year
14:07:38  <Gekz> of a company''s existance
14:07:45  <Gekz> so they cant go "I R TROLL, KICK KICK KICK"
14:07:59  <Gekz> SpComb: purchasing land
14:08:00  <HMage> I think of the first 5 years of company's existence, I would just forbid landscaping COMPLETELY
14:08:05  <Gekz> terraforming randomly
14:08:11  <Gekz> placing stations blocking yours
14:08:22  <Gekz> HMage: nice idea
14:08:27  <Gekz> HMage: OH
14:08:30  <Gekz> they could apply for a permit
14:08:34  <SpComb> so things like purchasing land and terraforming randomly could make you easier to vote-kick, getting profit and such would make it harder
14:08:38  <Gekz> and the other companies vote
14:08:41  <Gekz> }:)
14:08:45  <HMage> :D
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14:09:17  <Gekz> SpComb: purchasing land such as the end of your station
14:09:20  <Gekz> or where you are building tracks
14:09:21  <HMage> Gekz: to be even more cruel, I'd suggest for a permit Per town :D
14:09:28  <Gekz> HMage: oh man that is cruel
14:09:33  <Gekz> HMage: permit to build one station
14:09:39  <Gekz> HMage: one SQUARE of a station
14:09:40  <HMage> permit to buy a train
14:09:49  <HMage> permit to buy permit
14:09:50  <Gekz> permit to build a road xD
14:09:53  <Gekz> LOL
14:10:46  <HMage> shodan: you're still with us?
14:11:41  * Belugas can see the number of AIs getting kicked skyrocketting :)
14:11:50  <Gekz> ln-: Du spreche Deutsch!
14:12:03  <Gekz> shh, dont correct the typo
14:12:04  <Gekz> its a test
14:12:17  <HMage> Gekz: you just gave out yourself :)
14:12:23  <Gekz> lol
14:12:28  <shodan> I sam
14:12:35  <shodan> er I am sorry
14:12:35  <Gekz> He sam!
14:12:35  <Gekz> lol
14:12:37  <shodan> haha
14:12:38  <HMage> me sam
14:12:44  <HMage> you sam
14:12:47  <Gekz> we all sam
14:12:49  <Gekz> for I sam
14:12:50  <shodan> Gekz: your nick is very familiar
14:12:55  <shodan> Sam likes ham
14:12:57  <Gekz> shodan: enguard
14:12:59  <shodan> <suess>
14:13:11  <Gekz> shodan: freenode
14:13:16  <shodan> i knew it
14:13:22  <Gekz> lol
14:13:24  <shodan> <-- optimus
14:13:30  <Gekz> oh dear.
14:13:34  <Gekz> you're australia
14:13:35  <Gekz> n
14:13:42  <HMage> I'm russia
14:13:43  <HMage> n
14:13:47  <Gekz> and you be a hater.
14:14:30  <shodan> I was just speaking to dutch people on the openttdcoop teamspeak server though
14:14:33  <shodan> nice people
14:14:35  * HMage has to regretfully announce that he has to leave
14:14:41  <HMage> ...and make some tea
14:14:46  <shodan> didn't seem to be on drugs at all, top gear has lied to me
14:14:47  <Gekz> HMage: good night chap
14:14:52  <shodan> HMage: thanks for the chat tonight
14:14:56  <shodan> I've saved this log
14:14:59  <shodan> I will consider it
14:15:00  <Gekz> lol
14:15:12  * HMage likes psychological tricks :)
14:15:14  <Gekz> hows ##australia
14:15:25  <shodan> dunno, freenode has split
14:15:33  <Gekz> how so
14:15:57  <shodan> netsplit
14:16:18  <Gekz> lolcats
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14:24:22  <ln-> does someone have an optimus keyboard?
14:24:31  <Gekz> ln-: Ich!
14:24:47  <ln-> no you don't, next.
14:25:27  <Gekz> ICH
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14:28:36  <HMage> ln-: I'm thinking about getting one, but it's price is 90% of my monthly salary
14:29:36  <HMage> so I won't get it soon :)
14:29:52  <shodan> what if you got a dead pixel? :)
14:30:01  <ln-> Yes, it costs more than a decent, brand new computer, which undoubtedly limits people's willingness to buy it.
14:30:06  <SpComb> replace the key with one of the spares that they ship with the keyboard
14:30:57  <HMage> anyway, I see this keyboard as a toy
14:31:01  *** frosch123 [~mtce@kolmogoroff.math.tu-clausthal.de] has joined #openttd
14:31:09  <HMage> since I can't put any functional use of this
14:31:46  <ln-> When can we expect OpenTTD support for Optimus?
14:32:00  <mrfrenzy> when you donate a keyboard to the devs?
14:32:12  * mrfrenzy signs up as openttd ui dev ;)
14:32:15  <HMage> ln-: it's up to the Optimus software, they create presets, not software developers
14:32:54  <Belugas> ln-, on my schedule, it is noted to commit it on 5 july 2035
14:32:55  <HMage> there's software that runs resident and watches which window is in front, and sets keyboard icons
14:33:21  <HMage> plus optimus users can create their own presets easily
14:33:25  <ln-> HMage: But isn't the idea that the key icons can be changed by applications, on-the-fly?
14:33:34  <HMage> ln-: it's not done by applications
14:33:43  <HMage> it's done by software that comes with the keyboard
14:34:48  <HMage> so all openttd devs need is a list of hotkeys and their icons
14:34:57  <ln-> HMage: hmm, i suppose there is no technical reason (in hardware) why it couldn't be eventually done by an application? (perhaps with 3rd party drivers, but still)
14:35:05  <HMage> none
14:37:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> <ln-> Brianetta: Ariel is the mermaid, Arial is the font. <- no, Ariel is the washing powder, Arielle is the mermaid
14:39:16  <HMage> ln-: to be honest, I don't even know if any software supports the keyboard besides the one that comes with it, and I suspect it's windows only
14:39:57  <ln-> some sources say Mac OS X, too.
14:40:07  <HMage> yup, maxosx is on the page
14:40:19  <HMage> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus/downloads/optimus-maximus-manual-eng.pdf
14:40:43  <ln-> Eddi|zuHause3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel_%28The_Little_Mermaid%29
14:42:04  <HMage> Avoid contact with liquids; do not use
14:42:04  <HMage> the keyboard in high humidity (e.g. bathroom)
14:42:04  <HMage> as it creates risk of fire or electric
14:42:05  <HMage> shock.
14:43:33  <Eddi|zuHause3> ln-: hm, then they changed that in german
14:43:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariel vs. http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arielle
14:45:00  <HMage> As it seems, the optimus keyboard is quite fragile
14:45:08  <shodan> gnight
14:45:09  <shodan> ta again
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14:45:33  <HMage> I spilt coffee/tea/water/alcohol/etc. on the keyboard
14:45:33  <HMage> Quickly turn off the keyboard, remove all the keys or at least the keys from
14:45:33  <HMage> the wet part. Carefully dry the keyboard and do not turn it on for a few days
14:45:34  <HMage> as it may cause damage if there is still liquid left inside.
14:45:38  <ln-> and optimus is not physically compatible with a lot of european layouts, which i find strange.
14:45:41  <Eddi|zuHause3> HMage: do not feed it after midnight?
14:46:14  <HMage> Eddi|zuHause3: it dislikes water very much
14:46:52  <HMage> there's silicone grease which you may get yourself dirty with while replacing keys, the keyboard might become dirty with the same grease if you don't replace keys properly
14:47:05  <HMage> one failed key will make whole keyboard inoperable
14:47:06  <HMage> etc
14:47:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> sounds like a maintenance nightmare
14:47:47  <HMage> yeah, and you need to place it very securely somewhere
14:48:20  <HMage> else it might fall and break
14:48:54  <HMage> byebye typing with keyboard on my knees :)
14:49:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> i drop things all the time...
14:49:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> especially if they are wireless
14:50:43  <HMage> yeah, if I drop this keyboard and it breaks, byebye 1564.72 US$
14:51:07  <ln-> that's what home insurance is for.
14:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> that's only like 500€ :p
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14:51:24  <HMage> 1257.14 €
14:51:55  <Eddi|zuHause3> 1 500 US$ = 955.474871 € says google
14:52:14  <HMage> http://store.artlebedev.com/computer_add-ons/optimus/
14:52:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> they are screwing you
14:52:23  <HMage> select 113-button one
14:52:42  <HMage> the price is actually in russian rubles
14:54:22  <HMage> 44000/23.5330=1869.71
14:54:27  <HMage> that's usd
14:54:48  <HMage> 1187.80 in euros
14:54:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> 44 000.00 Russian rubles = 1 188.80438 €
14:54:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> 44 000.00 Russian rubles = 1 866.304 US$
14:55:35  <HMage> so, US price is a bargain now :)
14:55:56  <ln-> whaat, the vast majority of the buttons are not "active" by default
14:56:07  <HMage> 1565 US$ vs 1870 US$
14:56:27  <HMage> ln-: where?
14:57:03  <ln-> oh, with some interpretations of "default"
14:57:12  <ln-> at the store
14:59:16  <HMage> ln-: the one with one active key is 13000 rub
14:59:47  <HMage> the one with ten -- 16850 rub
15:00:03  <HMage> with 47 -- 28100
15:00:12  <HMage> all 113 -- 44000
15:00:49  <HMage> I might be wrong with software, actually
15:01:00  <HMage> seems like it reprograms the keyboard
15:01:22  <HMage> I don't know how keyboard knows about current foreground window, though
15:01:41  <ln-> who the hell wants only one active key?
15:01:48  <ln-> is that good for anything?
15:03:23  <Eddi|zuHause3> you could display stuff in the spacebar
15:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> like current song playing and stuff
15:05:07  <HMage> "402345$, 135 trains, 5 aircrafts."
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15:06:13  <Eddi|zuHause3> well, it'd only make sense for stuff that you might want to do while not looking at the screen anyway
15:06:52  <HMage> I don't look at the keyboard at all :D
15:07:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> i mean, like, when the screen is turned off
15:08:12  <HMage> still makes no sense
15:08:21  <HMage> if I turn off the screen that means I don't wan to look at the output of my pc
15:08:25  <HMage> want*
15:08:31  <HMage> no matter where it is
15:10:10  <Eddi|zuHause3> no, when the screen is turned off (or not available), it means, i don't USUALLY want to see the output, but when i occasionally want to, i not necessarily want to go through the trouble of switching it on / attaching one
15:10:37  <Eddi|zuHause3> like on a "headless" server, i could attach the keyboard, and display the last two lines of the console
15:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> to get a tiny overview about what is going on
15:11:36  <HMage> optimus mini would be more suitable then :)
15:11:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> i can more easily attach a portable USB keyboard than a full blown monitor
15:11:37  <HMage> http://www.artlebedev.com/everything/optimus-mini/
15:12:25  <HMage> so, no need for a keyboard with one key unless I plan to expand
15:12:26  <Eddi|zuHause3> or like my previous example, to control the music player, i don't need to switch on the monitor
15:12:47  <Eddi|zuHause3> but i occasionally want to get a little bit of information
15:13:06  <HMage> typical multimedia keyboard + optimus mini
15:13:19  <HMage> less fragile
15:13:30  <HMage> and no need to keep all eggs in one basket :)
15:13:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> less baskets to carry ;)
15:14:12  <HMage> I'll prefer the safer side
15:14:25  <HMage> if I drop one basket, I won't lose all my eggs
15:14:42  <HMage> just the half
15:14:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> or if you drop no baskets, you don't lose any eggs
15:15:02  <HMage> things happen
15:15:07  <HMage> keyboards drop :)
15:15:15  <HMage> optimus is fragile
15:15:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> depending on the value of the eggs, you should really improve on the dropping issue
15:17:17  <HMage> accidents happen
15:17:38  <HMage> I'd prefer it to be a calculated risk than a devastating incident
15:17:56  <HMage> it's kind of a safety net
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15:23:22  * HMage walks around in circles
15:26:31  <vodi> how can i update to 0.6.0 on debian lenny?
15:26:57  <Rubidium> download the debian package from the website and install that
15:27:44  <vodi> shouldn't it come as update?
15:27:47  <Ammller> Isn't there a command like "apt up openttd" ?
15:28:01  <peter1138> if there's an update, you'll get it
15:28:15  <vodi> in de repo's is only 0.5.3
15:28:17  <peter1138> if there isn't, you'll have to do it manually
15:28:33  <peter1138> it's not up to was what appears in debian
15:28:38  <peter1138> er
15:28:39  <peter1138> s/was/us/
15:28:49  <Ammller> can't you include sourceforge as repo?
15:29:45  <vodi> i don't think that sf.net is a repo
15:29:55  <HMage> vodi: are you on unstable?
15:30:00  <vodi> no, lenny
15:30:07  <HMage> lenny as in ..?
15:30:11  <HMage> oldstable?
15:30:39  <vodi> testing
15:30:51  <HMage> ah
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15:31:34  <HMage> it takes some time and numerous conditions for package to get into testing from unstable
15:32:25  <HMage> unstable has 0.6.0-2
15:32:31  <HMage> http://packages.debian.org/sid/openttd
15:32:46  <vodi> is ok...
15:32:57  <vodi> i think i'm downloading the .deb from sf.net
15:33:01  <HMage> you can download just the deb and install it with dpkg -i
15:33:38  <vodi> is ok
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15:38:31  <peter1138> gdebi :D
15:38:47  <vodi> no, dpkg -i
15:40:25  <peter1138> heh, ok ok
15:40:45  * peter1138 ponders the feasibility of providing an apt source
15:41:30  <hylje> it would be most apt
15:41:35  <peter1138> hurr hurr
15:41:48  <Rubidium> vodi, the excuses Debian gives for not putting OpenTTD in testing: http://bjorn.haxx.se/debian/testing.pl?package=openttd
15:41:55  <HMage> I'm actually surpsised there are still some debian users
15:42:40  <Rubidium> 0.6% of the people that installed popcon on Debian have OpenTTD installed
15:43:15  <HMage> I've installed popcon and I don't have openttd installed, since I us debian as a server ;D
15:43:20  <HMage> I use*
15:43:29  <HMage> not openttd kind of server
15:43:30  <ln-> bad excuse
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15:43:51  <HMage> I just didn't launch openttd for over 6 months, is that a good excuse? :)
15:44:01  <Rubidium> HMage: so you're one of the 80000 people that installed popcon
15:44:09  <HMage> yup
15:44:19  * HMage re-checks
15:44:38  <HMage> yup, installed
15:48:56  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r12629 /trunk/src/ (8 files):
15:48:56  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Codechange: Split VehicleNeedsService() into Vehicle::NeedsServicing() and Vehicle::NeedsAutomaticServicing().
15:48:56  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Fix (r11052): Disable servicing by service-interval if a vehicle has depot orders.
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16:12:43  *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
16:15:43  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: maedhros * r12630 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r12600): Missing 'break' made it impossible to add waypoints to vehicle orders.
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16:22:45  *** mode/#openttd [+o Bjarni] by ChanServ
16:23:04  <ln-> 0x50a41673.virnxx14.adsl-dhcp.tele.dk!
16:23:29  <Bjarni> gee that looks familiar
16:23:53  <Bjarni> I know the guy who hides behind that address. He is a really nice guy
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16:25:05  <skidd13> hmm 1352930931
16:25:30  <Bjarni> 1352930931 bottles of beer on the wall
16:25:39  <Bjarni> this could take a while
16:25:47  <Noldo> is it IP adderss in hex?
16:25:55  <skidd13> 0x50a41673 in dec -> 1352930931
16:30:14  <peter1138> STOP!
16:30:24  <peter1138> YOU'RE BROADCASTING YOUR INTERNET NUMBER TO THE WORLD!
16:30:37  <Kloopy> It's probably been discussed before, but how easy would it be to compile OTTD without all the graphics on linux to have a dedicate server for machines without X?
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16:31:32  <frosch123> what's wrong with posting "127.0.0.1"?
16:34:23  <peter1138> Kloopy: THERE'S A CONFIGURE OPTION FOR IT
16:34:24  <peter1138> ERR
16:34:27  <peter1138> whoops :o
16:34:43  <Bjarni> peter1138: please keep it down
16:34:51  <skidd13> peter1138: is your capslock broken? ;)
16:34:57  <peter1138> Bjarni, i can't when i think of you
16:35:22  <Bjarni> no matter how loud you yell your voice can't reach me
16:35:28  <Kloopy> hehe.. I didn't realise that! Awesome... I've never compiled the game before so didn't realise. Unless I'm really dense, there's no binary download for dedicated-without-X version.
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16:59:20  <Wolf01> hello
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17:51:54  <Noldo> does anyone know if the song on TTD soundtrack were composed for the game or if any of them older stuff
17:51:54  *** Brianetta [~brian@77-103-231-158.cable.ubr05.benw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd
17:52:12  <orudge> they're all composed for the game, as far as I know, Noldo
17:52:14  <orudge> by John Broomhall
18:16:09  * CARST is playing Counter-Strike: Source on :THM: | cs_office | Stats | TheHitmen.de | Tick100 (85.14.229.222:27015) (Password none) with HLSW (www.hlsw.net)
18:16:27  <Noldo> now that's interesting
18:16:42  <hylje> insightful even
18:18:36  * SpComb played CS:S on sunday
18:18:50  <SpComb> it's quite a bit of a better game than CS 1.5 which I'm used to
18:19:23  * Belugas played WHSOAP on sunday. Lots of fun :)
18:19:53  <Noldo> what about teewars?
18:24:07  * CARST returned from playing Counter-Strike: Source with HLSW (www.hlsw.de)
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18:39:11  * CARST is playing Counter-Strike: Source on :THM: | cs_office | Stats | TheHitmen.de | Tick100 (85.14.229.222:27015) (Password none) with HLSW (www.hlsw.net)
18:39:48  <Rubidium> CARST is getting kicked if he continues spamming with that
18:41:10  <Patrick`> wow, CS:S
18:41:15  <Patrick`> guess somebody never tried TF2
18:41:31  <hylje> CoD4: Grenade Warfare
18:41:40  <Patrick`> portal2
18:49:43  <Patrick`> we have an option to display signals on the wrong side, right?
18:49:46  <Patrick`> it's not a server var
18:53:37  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12631 /trunk/src/aircraft_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#1911]: sometimes aircraft couldn't find their way to their depot.
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19:03:27  <wleader> I have a question about a change made to the trunk in revision 12561. The change added the use of INT16_MAX and INT16_MIN which on my machine do not appear to be defined.
19:06:12  <wleader> Which honestly seems really odd, since INT_MAX and INT_MIN are defined.
19:06:29  <Noldo> what is your system?
19:07:13  <wleader> I'm compiling with MSVC++ Express 2005.
19:07:58  <wleader> limits.h does have SHRT_MIN and SHRT_MAX which contain the values one would expect for 16 bits.
19:08:16  <Belugas> tried to clean and to build?  I compiled flawlessly yesterday
19:08:44  *** Morloth [~bram@53542231.cable.casema.nl] has joined #openttd
19:09:01  <wleader> Yes Belugas.
19:09:12  <Belugas> clean trunk?
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19:10:01  <Rubidium> wleader: shorts aren't necessarily 16 bits on all platforms
19:10:55  <Rubidium> but INT16_MAX/INT16_MIN are defined on your system (or rather by OTTD)
19:11:05  <Rubidium> unless your MSVC doesn't tell it's compiling as MSVC
19:11:25  <wleader> Thats why I am weirded out. It should be defined on my system, but its not.
19:12:04  <Rubidium> INT16_MAX/INT16_MIN are not defined by your 'system' (i.e. Microsoft), they are by stdafx.h in trunk/src/
19:17:16  <wleader> downloaded a new stdafx.h from the repository. That seems to have fixed it. I wonder how it got broken in the first place.
19:20:04  <Rubidium> by not using svn or applying someone's patch that reverted that change
19:21:08  <wleader> At least I learned something.
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19:34:51  <HMage> яЌяЌ. всеЌ спПкПйМПй МПчО. goodnight
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19:37:01  * CARST returned from playing Counter-Strike: Source with HLSW (www.hlsw.de)
19:40:19  *** CARST was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [You have been warned]
19:40:36  <mrfrenzy> I was gonna say something about him being in the wrong channel ;)
19:41:27  <Belugas> now, he has all the luxury to play that game quietly :S
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19:53:14  <Patrick`> is autoreplace broken? it seems to operate holistically
19:53:28  <Patrick`> I do "send all trains for servicing" and a year later half of them aren't up
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19:54:21  <Patrick`> bollocks, I just ran out of money
19:55:10  <Belugas> holistically... a new one.. i prefered the "entropic" one :D
19:56:09  <SpComb> hmm
19:56:19  <SpComb> openttd's surprisingly light in terms of running inside a chroot
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20:10:03  <ln-> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Caroline-Migros-p1000507.jpg
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21:29:10  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: smatz * r12632 /trunk/src/tunnelbridge_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r12547): with invisible catenary, trams were be drawn over a bridge
21:29:54  <peter1138> were be?
21:30:08  <SmatZ> oh my
21:30:21  <SmatZ> why do I do that stupid typos
21:30:40  <SmatZ> ... (changed could -> were, but didn't remove 'be')
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21:37:41  <wleader> Huzzah, I got YAPP, Paxdest, and all my patched to build together on recent trunk code.
21:37:45  * wleader does a dance of joy
21:39:37  <SpComb> http://pb.paivola.fi/574 <-- mm... chrooted, unionfs'd openttd
21:41:30  * SpComb plans to start the development of the new version of MyOTTD by offering raw access to openttd.cfg, the console, and such
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21:48:47  <Allometry> !password
21:48:47  *** Allometry was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
21:48:56  *** Sacro` is now known as Sacro
21:49:34  <Eddi|zuHause3> it worked! :p
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21:55:21  <Diadem> Question: I accidently pressed the 'send to servicing' button... Is there any way to undo this command?
21:55:28  <Diadem> Gonna cost me a couple of hundred million I fear :(
21:55:34  *** Osai^Kendo is now known as Osai
21:56:34  <Patrick`> what, because of network disruption?
21:57:13  <SmatZ> Diadem: disable autoreplace and autorenew...
21:57:22  <SmatZ> then it won't cost you that much
21:57:33  <Diadem> No it's the network disruption it's gonna create
21:57:41  <Diadem> gonna take 2 years for my network to reestablish itself ;)
21:57:49  <Diadem> Trains will start taking wrong turns to reach depots etc
21:58:05  <Patrick`> reload from a save
21:58:18  <Patrick`> I actually prefer to build with rails now
21:58:30  <Patrick`> I used to use monorail - I got more money but train networks just "look" fuller
21:58:40  <Patrick`> I meant magletv
21:58:48  <Diadem> Hmmm
21:58:54  <Diadem> save is quite a long time ago
21:59:03  <Diadem> gonna have to manually cancel depot order on 539 trains I guess
21:59:23  <Patrick`> what size of map
21:59:27  <Patrick`> and what industry density
21:59:35  <Patrick`> I always get bored after 100 or so trains
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21:59:56  <Patrick`> in fact, is it a lot of hassle to fire us a save? I'm really curious about how people run big networks
22:01:44  <Diadem> 1024x1024
22:01:55  <Diadem> high industry, low towns
22:02:04  <Diadem> And I'm just in the started stages really :)
22:03:17  <Diadem> sending you latest savegame
22:03:23  <Diadem> (the one with the depot order :P)
22:03:29  <Eddi|zuHause3> i prefer high towns [villages], few cities [like 1 in 40] and few industries [they close down before you can connect them anyway]
22:03:57  <Diadem> hehe
22:04:09  <Diadem> I'm currently working on connecting *all* iron ore mines to the same steel mill
22:04:40  <Diadem> 81/106 hooked up at the moment
22:04:44  *** thgerg1 [~Administr@dsl51B60EC5.pool.t-online.hu] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
22:04:57  <Diadem> 200 steel trains to transport all the steel :P
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22:05:27  <SmatZ> :)
22:05:28  <glx> that's why autosave is nice
22:05:34  <Patrick`> Diadem: won't be able to look at it for ages
22:05:37  <Patrick`> Diadem: that's insane!
22:05:45  <Patrick`> I always go for low density just to have something to do
22:05:48  <Patrick`> and so they don't get in the way
22:06:13  <Diadem> glx: oh wait, I have autosave
22:06:15  <Diadem> glx: good idea
22:06:17  <Eddi|zuHause3> i just think the game creates way too many secondary industries
22:06:18  *** CARST [~carstenr@dslb-088-073-084-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd
22:06:18  <SmatZ> hehe
22:06:35  <Diadem> thanks!
22:06:43  <Diadem> it's only 18 days old. That's only 3 stations :)
22:07:16  <Diadem> Patrick`: My trains are too slow for my network size really. Takes aaages I need like 4 trains even on a mine that produces 20 ore a month
22:07:27  <Diadem> Patrick`: But once I get faster trains my income should go up and up :)
22:08:01  * Diadem only does industry. I always kill towns off
22:08:08  <Wolf01|AWAY> 'night
22:08:12  *** Wolf01|AWAY [~wolf01@79.30.232.177] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
22:08:20  <Diadem> I usually only have a few towns in a corner somewhere where I put an airport, so I let those grow
22:08:27  <Diadem> the rest I kill if they are in the way, and ignore otherwise
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22:09:48  <SmatZ> Diadem: hope you won't reach int64 money limit :)
22:09:56  <SmatZ> if you are playing with planespeed = 1/1
22:10:09  <SmatZ> and inflation
22:10:16  <Diadem> hehe
22:10:20  *** wleader [wleader@twleader.plus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:10:34  <Diadem> surely int64 ain't possible
22:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause3> use feeder services
22:10:52  <Eddi|zuHause3> collect ore with short trains on hub stations
22:11:01  <Eddi|zuHause3> send huge trains to the steel mill
22:11:08  <Diadem> int 64 would be 9 billion billion
22:11:11  <Diadem> that's a lot of money :)
22:11:13  <SmatZ> :-)
22:11:18  <Diadem> Eddi|zuHause3: I use feeders a lot
22:11:28  <Diadem> Eddi|zuHause3: TL5 for normal trains and TL7 for the steel (and later goods) trains
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22:14:32  <Diadem> Int64 is too low by the way. My physics program ran over the limit :-(
22:14:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%201.%20Jul%201981.png <- i use like 5 tiles for feeders and 10 tiles for network trains
22:15:55  <Patrick`> mmm
22:16:23  <Patrick`> Eddi|zuHause3: ooh, good call
22:16:40  <Patrick`> a feeder won't actually waste that much more time
22:16:40  <Diadem> 10 tiles? or 10 wagons?
22:16:56  <Diadem> 10 tiles is soooo slow :)
22:16:58  <Patrick`> there's something romantic in having a massive network of individual trains all crossing the map
22:17:00  <SmatZ> Diadem: typedef unsigned int __attribute__ ((mode (TI))) int128; should work on GCC if you have a 64bit machine ;-)
22:17:04  <Patrick`> but feeder is probably more realistic
22:17:16  <SmatZ> *uint128
22:17:22  <Patrick`> more realistic? I meant more efficient for huuuuuuuuuuuuge maps
22:17:44  * SmatZ really likes big everything...
22:17:47  <SmatZ> big maps
22:17:51  <SmatZ> for example :)
22:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause3> i only serve like 10 industries anyway... i am more the passenger type
22:17:55  <peter1138> big penises
22:17:55  <SmatZ> 16384x16384
22:18:01  <SmatZ> nonono :-x
22:18:03  * peter1138 likes 128x128 maps
22:18:04  <Rubidium> big desyncs
22:18:12  <peter1138> they're a real challenge
22:18:28  <Eddi|zuHause3> i don't want challenge, i want complexity
22:18:39  <SmatZ> Rubidium: do you think big maps will be included in 0.7?
22:18:58  <peter1138> we've already got big maps
22:19:09  <Eddi|zuHause3> Diadem: look at the picture, it's 1 engine (E 94) and 18 wagons
22:19:20  <SmatZ> peter1138: I like building long train routes :) slow trains travel two years over 2048x2048 maps...
22:19:29  <SmatZ> peter1138: I mean BIG then :)
22:19:36  <Eddi|zuHause3> SmatZ: use daylength ;)
22:20:08  <Diadem> feeders don't save trains though. Not really. You still need to transport all the stuff the entire distance. You just do it in stages
22:20:09  <SmatZ> :-)
22:20:12  <Patrick`> I wnat complexity
22:20:12  <Diadem> But they give you better station rates
22:20:18  <Patrick`> I want something looking col
22:20:32  <Patrick`> Diadem: well, you have a higher line capacity long-distance
22:20:44  <Patrick`> and you save trains
22:20:51  <peter1138> 2048x2048 IS big
22:20:51  <Eddi|zuHause3> Patrick`: i believe we have very different views on what is "complex" and "looks cool" ;)
22:21:03  <Patrick`> hmm
22:21:15  <Patrick`> lots of tracks squirming over each other, with trains flowing like sand through fingertips
22:21:37  <SmatZ> peter1138: not for everyone...
22:22:13  *** XeryusTC is now known as Xeryus|bnc
22:22:30  <Eddi|zuHause3> i mean, like... www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Ravenswald%20Transport,%2017.%20Okt%201981.png
22:23:16  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause3: nice one, really
22:24:11  <Eddi|zuHause3> i love double tracks ;)
22:24:27  <Diadem> SmatZ: I do have a int128 computer. Though I don't think my university server is. Hmm. Can you use int128 on a 32 bit computer?
22:24:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> and i definitely need passenger destinations in this game
22:24:57  <Eddi|zuHause3> Diadem: sure, when the compiler figures out to store it in 4 int32s
22:25:11  <SmatZ> Diadem: gcc will complain about it, it won't compile that :-x
22:25:49  <Eddi|zuHause3> but you'll definitely have to sacrifice speed because of non-nativeness of the data type
22:26:16  <Diadem> Hmm
22:26:32  <Diadem> Actually I wonder if int128 is enough
22:26:44  * peter1138 ponders playing freeciv, where maps are less than 100x100
22:26:48  <Eddi|zuHause3> and at that point, you'd probably better off using a "BigInt" data type that supports the full integer range (-oo..+oo)
22:27:05  <Eddi|zuHause3> +be
22:27:21  <Diadem> double should be big enough. But slower
22:27:41  <Diadem> Gonna be using numbers in the area of e^200 :-)
22:27:59  <SmatZ> hmm I should do something with that half-snow track patch :-x  http://88.146.45.107/ttd/snow3.png
22:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause3> Diadem: then floats are probably the more sensible way to go
22:28:43  <peter1138> gmp :o
22:29:06  <Diadem> Eddi|zuHause3: Just slower. Int multiplication is a lot faster than double multiplication
22:29:26  <Patrick`> try to top out an arbirary precision money counter
22:29:38  <Eddi|zuHause3> Diadem: not when you want to multiply 500 (binary) digit numbers
22:30:01  <Patrick`> 2 gigs of ram filled withhex digits of money owned
22:30:36  <SmatZ> :-)
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22:32:07  <Diadem> Eddi|zuHause3: Well my program will be fast enough anyway. One of the fastest. Using the best random number generator :)
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22:41:27  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r12633 /trunk/src/ (order_base.h order_cmd.cpp): -Fix: could not make a (go-to) depot order.
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22:44:46  <Diadem> well gtg guys
22:44:48  <Diadem> cya around!
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22:49:38  <Sacro> "Now it’s time to check for collisions between the plane and the buildings. Add these lines before the ‘return 0’ line:"
22:50:45  <SmatZ> Sacro: is it from tt-forums?
22:51:06  <Sacro> SmatZ: no, an XNA tutorial
22:52:02  <SmatZ> Sacro: ok... people at tt-forums have strange ideas sometimes :)
22:52:26  <Sacro> SmatZ: lol
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22:54:43  <Eddi|zuHause3> planes crashing into buildings makes no sense when you can't control the type of buildings around the airport (like in SC2000)
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