Log for #openttd on 2nd November 2008:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
00:02:29  * TrueBrain wonders if he should replace his own lexer with bison+flex ... generates more complex code, more lines, less readable, slightly slower .. but more compatible/changable ...
00:03:30  <Eddi|zuHause> who cares how big or complex generated code is?
00:03:55  <TrueBrain> NoAI already increases compile time of OpenTTD with 30+%
00:04:17  <frosch123> what's wrong with your own lexer?
00:04:45  <TrueBrain> well, it is slightly more difficult to add things
00:04:57  <TrueBrain> flex/bison makes that REALLY easy
00:05:09  <TrueBrain> and, allows tree-like syntax analyzes
00:05:30  <TrueBrain> my own lexer is a lineair structure, will never allow any real syntax analyzes
00:05:42  <TrueBrain> but I guess we can build a tree out of it too, as a side-step .. just slightly more complex :)
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00:11:30  <TrueBrain> so there is nothing wrong with the current lexer in NAIL, I just wonder if bison/flex isn't a more logic solution .. hmm ..
00:11:37  <Char2> wheee, ECS is pretty tough compared to normal game
00:12:23  * frosch123 is tires
00:12:26  <frosch123> *d
00:12:29  <frosch123> night
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00:17:50  <Wolf01> 'night
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00:24:59  <Char2> anyone still awake?
00:25:57  <TrueBrain> nope
00:26:01  <Char2> great :)
00:26:23  <welshdragon> nope
00:26:26  <Char2> question: are you building statues of the company owner in the cities?
00:26:35  <Char2> cause it increases the rating at your stations
00:26:38  <welshdragon> answer: yes
00:26:41  <TrueBrain> no, I always build them of my oponent
00:27:06  <Char2> uhmmmm.... this was an honest question, you know, so an honest answer would have been nice ;)
00:27:25  <ln> it's always a statue of Bjarni.
00:27:26  <welshdragon> and i gave you an answer: yes
00:27:27  <TrueBrain> well, I thought it was funny :)
00:29:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i agree ;)
00:30:31  <welshdragon> so do i actually
00:30:47  <TrueBrain> so it is just Char2 ;)
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00:37:38  * fjb agrees too.
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00:57:06  <Char2> well
00:57:14  * Char2 starts building statues all around
00:57:26  <Char2> what happens if you have multiple statues in one city?
00:58:34  <TrueBrain> your city gets really ugly
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01:02:27  <kunwon1> the city goes under because it can't afford the statue tax
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01:16:10  <Eddi|zuHause2> would be a really bad oversight if that was possible...
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01:21:40  <kunwon1> Why? If you fill a city up with statues, you deserve whatever happens. Egotism will not be tolerated!
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01:40:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, i suppose the bonus is added only once...
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09:53:35  <Celestar> \o
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10:50:14  <Progman> is there a reason for a red topic instead of a normal one?
10:58:17  <ln> the october revolution
10:58:51  * Doorslammer hides
10:59:30  <Rubidium> red topic?
10:59:57  <ln> i don't see such either.
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11:05:39  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r14553 /trunk/src/ (stdafx.h string_func.h): -Doc: Add some doxygen comments
11:10:00  <roboboy> gnight
11:10:16  <roboboy> no red topic either
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11:15:49  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: rubidium * r14554 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Fix: languages using longer gender names than strgen supports.
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11:20:28  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r14555 /trunk/src/ (23 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: replace ttd_strlcat and ttd_strlcpy with strecat and strecpy where direct conversion is possible
11:20:51  <Progman> the topic is in xchat written in red (and starts with ".6.3 ..." instead of "0.6.3 ...")
11:21:53  <Rubidium> blame your chat client; we don't set a color for the topic
11:22:01  <Belugas> the topic on mIRC is white on blue background.  You should check your setting
11:22:06  <Belugas> hello
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11:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause2> i'm feeling so old fashoned with a black topic on gray background
11:23:27  <Rubidium> gray topic on a blue background ;)
11:23:57  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: frosch * r14556 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Fix (r14533): Bounding box with height > TILE_HEIGHT could cause circular dependencies with surrounding bridges.
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11:23:59  <Belugas> anyone remember the orange/black screens?
11:24:07  <Belugas> or even the green ones?
11:24:09  <Belugas> heheh
11:24:14  <Progman> strange, its the only channel with a red topic o_O
11:24:39  <Eddi|zuHause2> well, that's for the topic in the topic, the topic in the chat buffer is green with a sprinkle of blue on white background
11:25:55  <frosch123> Belugas: orange was called amber here :)
11:26:18  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, "Bernstein"
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11:29:47  <Zahl> i had a green one.. all the letters were doing belly-dance on it
11:29:49  <Eddi|zuHause2> god i hate this... the whole house smells like delicious food, but it isn't ready for another hour...
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11:41:27  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: skidd13 * r14557 /trunk/src/string.cpp: -Codechange: Remove a redundant line of code
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11:44:05  <Alberth> Belugas: yes, my first monitor was a green/black one
11:44:48  <Prof_Frink> Mmm, Green & Black
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12:16:11  <TrueBrain> morning all
12:16:22  <Rubidium> afternoon TrueBrain
12:19:14  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: ever found the time to look at AIOrder? :)
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12:24:15  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: no :( haven't found the time to make a test AI yet
12:24:41  <TrueBrain> :( Too bad
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12:39:28  <George_> Hey, who has used my nick?
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12:42:57  <petern> probably some guy called george
12:45:19  <George_> Fine, how can I contact him?
12:45:26  <Ammler> George_: don't use registered nicks: /ns info <nick>
12:45:43  <George_>  /ns info <nick>
12:46:19  <TrueBrain> you want to make a clame on the oh-so-common name George? Good luck :)
12:46:28  <Ammler> your clients might not be able to interprete /ns: /nickserv info
12:46:48  <Prof_Frink> or possibly even /msg nickserv info
12:46:51  <Ammler> '/msg nickserv
12:46:57  <Ammler> :-)
12:47:13  <Ammler> my client does that for me ;-)
12:47:44  <yorick> hm, the guy currently using the nickname isn't even the one that claimed it with nickserv
12:49:52  <George_> Sorry, this is my first IRC attempt. What should I do to change my nick to "George"?
12:50:27  <TrueBrain> if it is taken, bad luck, pick an ither name
12:50:46  <George_> How can read messages, which were posted before I've joined?
12:50:51  <TrueBrain> not
12:50:51  <SpComb> Logs:
12:50:51  <yorick> !logs
12:50:54  <Ammler> George_: use same nick as you do on forums
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12:51:17  <TrueBrain> George_: and for that and all your other questions, use and read the basics of IRC
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12:52:26  <George_> Unfortunately my forum nick is "George" and I have problems to set the same one here :(
12:53:06  <Wolf01> hello
12:53:14  <TrueBrain> morning Wolf01
12:53:29  <George_> And how can I add a spell checker here? Ops, I did it already :)
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12:55:11  <Prof_Frink> A spell checker in IRC? Isn't that like a smoke alarm in Hades?
12:55:32  <TrueBrain> hehe @ Prof_Frink
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12:59:05  <George> Hm. After quit I could change the nick to George :)
12:59:21  <yorick> but you can't keep it
12:59:24  <George> It will take time to understand how it works.
12:59:33  <yorick> the guy who claimed it can just take it back
13:00:18  <George> And what can I do make this name mine? at least at #openttd and #tycoon?
13:00:25  <yorick> you can't
13:00:38  <yorick> you need to get another one
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13:01:22  <George> And why do people say these IRC are so good? My first step gave more trouble than benefit :(
13:01:35  <TrueBrain> because you failed to read a manual?
13:01:51  <Doorslammer> We thought the same about you
13:02:02  <TrueBrain> hehe @ Doorslammer
13:02:06  <George> What do you mean OTHER ONE? All the TTD community knows George, why should use other nickname?
13:02:20  <TrueBrain> poor thing
13:02:22  <TrueBrain> not a single clue
13:02:47  <stillunknown> An irc server hosts many channels.
13:02:53  <George> 2Doorslammer: What do you mean by that?
13:03:17  <Doorslammer> Dont slag off IRC, it works for the rest of us
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13:03:52  <George> 2TrueBrain: How reading the manual would protect the name?
13:04:02  <stillunknown> George: what you want is like me saying that i have the name George somewhere and want it on tt-forums too
13:04:04  <TrueBrain> not; at least it would give you an understanding that you are talking gibberish
13:04:07  <Ammler> George: are you ECS George?
13:04:21  <Doorslammer> Inexcusable if he is
13:04:53  <yorick> -NickServ- Nickname information for George (george)
13:04:53  <yorick> -NickServ-         Last seen: Sun 02 Mar 2008 05:58:34 +0000 (8m 2d 07:04:56 ago)
13:05:58  <George> > <Doorslammer>	Dont slag off IRC, it works for the rest of us
13:06:00  <George> I didn't start yet, but if you are unhappy to see me here ... Just tell
13:06:20  <yorick> you show up and the first thing you do is complain
13:06:31  <George> Yes, I'm George, the author of LV and ECS.
13:06:44  <Ammler> he, nice. :-)
13:07:10  <Doorslammer> Not that Im unhappy you are here, just rather unhappy that someone who has much forum experience complain worse than some new people
13:07:48  <TrueBrain> Doorslammer: well, this in fact is a all time low for me :)
13:07:49  <George> It is not a complain yet, it is a help request.
13:08:28  <Ammler> just use an alternative name like TTGeorge or Geor9e or what ever...
13:08:56  <frosch123> or George123 :p
13:08:59  <George> But how would other understand that this is the same George?
13:09:10  <Ammler> and register with /msg nickserv register"
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13:09:23  <Ammler> they will very soon know you as that...
13:09:25  <frosch123> sometimes it is not that bad, when not everyone knows that I am frosch :)
13:10:03  <TrueBrain> frosch123: you are 'frosch'? Wow .... :p
13:10:04  <TrueBrain> haha
13:10:21  <George> 2Frosch. Thank you for your fix.
13:10:23  <George> But why?
13:10:27  <frosch123> well, I also highlight on "frosh" in the mean time
13:10:55  <Ammler> George: the network has more then just those 2 channels...
13:11:10  <Doorslammer> My name is in half and changes to something almost unrelated when the original times out
13:11:10  <Ammler> and evey nick is unique on the whole network
13:11:37  <George> Is it possible to have different "George" s on different channels?
13:12:02  <TrueBrain> again, read any IRC manual
13:12:03  <Ammler> that is what we tried to tell you, it isn't
13:13:35  <George> It will take time. As for now belugas said me to join IRC to see FS2334 discussion. But I could not find it yet :(
13:15:24  <George> frosch, where is the discussion belugas was telling me about?
13:16:54  <stillunknown> irc is real time, meaning you'll have to find/wait for belugas
13:16:59  <frosch123> hehe, that was a non-public discussion
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13:17:56  <frosch123> but George, we were mainly wondering how useful the results 0xD, 0xE and 0xF are.
13:18:25  <frosch123> I.e. to my knowledge they only work when you are using a production callback and have "automatic multiplier handling" enabled
13:18:47  <George> how can I join that non-public discussion
13:19:29  <frosch123> but when you already use a production callback, you can also just store your own multiplier in some persistent register, and multiply however you like inside the production callback
13:19:57  <George> I'd like to say that they are very useful for ECS vectors. Every mine uses them and I plan to use it for every industry in the future.
13:20:00  <frosch123> btw. that would also allow changing production of different output cargos independent from each other
13:20:28  <frosch123> but do you agree, that they are not very useful when an industry produces more than one cargo?
13:21:29  <George> Yes, I can use industry register instead of var 93, but I do not think that is the best way.
13:22:22  <frosch123> well, "the best way" was the whole point of the discussion, and we got no result :)
13:23:04  <George> No, in ECS vectors every industry that has 2 outputs, has them linked, so for me var 93 is ok
13:24:38  <George> And what were the arguments? How can I read your non-public discussions? Could you authorize me to your non-public channel?
13:25:50  <frosch123> another question was, which register to use
13:26:06  <frosch123> I would like when the textref stack would be uses consistently accross all callbacks
13:26:42  <frosch123> though the stringID in register 0x100 might be some special case
13:27:24  <George> As i wrote, selecting registers is up to devs team
13:28:25  <frosch123> however, generally there is no real argument against 0xF, as 0xD and 0xE are already there
13:28:39  <George> On the GRF side every register is good as soon as it is documented and unchanged ;)
13:28:42  <frosch123> so it could somewhat finish that stuff
13:30:05  <George> Should I read it as you've decided to implement it?
13:31:02  <frosch123> well, we agreed on "yes", but not on "how" :)
13:31:17  <George> Thank you!
13:31:42  <George> Let me know if you need a GRF to test.
13:32:10  <frosch123> err, of course we also have no plan for "when"
13:33:24  <George> I didn't say that I'm supposing to see it in trunk today ;)
13:34:47  <frosch123> however, your info, that your output rates are linked by a constant factor, is also useful :)#
13:35:27  <George> For me it is Ok when devs say "We decided to implement it". My GRFs took over 3 years to do, devs would be definitely faster :lol:
13:35:57  <George> Feel free to ask me any question about ECS vectors
13:38:06  <George> Just to note. Linked do not mean equal. Proportions are defined by income cargo and % transported. var 93 defines only the max values.
13:38:57  <George> So, how can I join your devs channel? What steps should I do?
13:39:52  <yorick> you need to ask them for the name and hope they let you in
13:39:56  <frosch123> usual approach is to fix about 20 FS tasks using our coding style and get them committed
13:40:15  <frosch123> or you code some nice feature, that gets committed, and prove that you support your code
13:40:33  <yorick> and if they don't, which is usually the case, you can use frosch's approach
13:44:13  <George> I do not plan to become a dev, because that would stop GRF developing. Is it possible to join the channel for the GRF coder, not an OTTD dev?
13:44:46  <frosch123> what's wrong with this channel?
13:46:33  <George> Because I can't read those discussions here, which belugas is referring to. With the same effect I can use no IRC channel and wait for belugas mail.
13:47:18  <yorick> could hope they forget to add +s some day, then looking in the channel list and join that channel, with them banning you <-- my approach
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13:48:51  <George> The goal in my joining IRC was to take part in your discussions about my requests to help you understand them better.
13:49:13  <frosch123> well, I guess I already replayed the discussion
13:49:25  <frosch123> and I learned how ECS uses the variable currently
13:49:26  <yorick> everything they say in the dev channel should not matter to you..
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13:51:15  <George> As belugas wrote: "Explanation will be sent to the other devs."
13:51:17  <George> So I decided why not to do it myself?
13:51:34  <George> yorick>	everything they say in the dev channel should not matter to you..
13:51:35  <George> What do you mean?
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13:51:48  <Char> re
13:51:49  <yorick> the dev channel is ment to be private for them
13:52:08  <yorick> if you just join that, there is no use for a secret coder hideout
13:53:35  <George> Well, if devs prefer to use guessing about my intentions after my requests - it is their solution. But, IMHO, asking me is much easier :roll:
13:53:59  <frosch123> isn't that what belugas was doing?
13:54:15  <TrueBrain> George: sometimes it is a good idea not to listen to yorick ;)
13:54:41  <yorick> George: don't use forum smileys at irc, it burns!
13:56:03  <Doorslammer> Just sometimes?
13:56:08  <George> 2frosch: Well, if you find that a better way, it is you decision, I should not change it. I just was willing to help. Sorry if did something wrong.
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13:56:47  <frosch123> no, it's just that there is no real difference between discussion with belugas or with all
13:57:00  <George> Is there a list of available smiles? Chatzilla shows :) ;) :( as images
13:57:47  <yorick> George: =), :D, D:, :|, :P, :-P, :-), ;-), :-(, ;-(, ;(
13:57:56  <Aali> here's a list of smileys that display images in my client:
13:58:23  <Doorslammer> Yorick has gone schizophrenic on us :S
13:58:34  <yorick> invisible smilies
13:58:52  <George> Strange. I understood this
13:58:54  <George> belugas> BY the way, you should notice that all our communications (with other devs, i mean) are done on IRC. One day, you should really try to useit. IT would make your life far easier. And don't tellm e about the language barrier. There are users who speak far worse english than you can imagine ;)
13:58:56  <George> as inviting to the channel.
13:59:00  <Doorslammer>    <--- Im sticking my tongue out at you stealthily
13:59:21  <frosch123> George: he mean't this channel :)
13:59:35  <yorick> meant*
13:59:47  <George> 2yorick: Chatzilla has showed only the last one as the image
13:59:47  <frosch123> and he said it for the same reason as phone is sometimes more useful than a letter
14:01:26  <George> Sorry, but what would be the use of me at this channel, when you discuss a question in the other? Confused.
14:01:27  <Doorslammer> No one has ever bombed a phone call, for instance
14:03:09  <yorick> George: that they can move the discussion *here* for you to see it
14:04:26  <George> But how can I know that a time came to join in discussion if I do not see it? Confused.
14:05:11  <George> Also, if they move it, I can't see the previous posts, which were done in the private channel?
14:05:28  <yorick> ...
14:06:06  <TrueBrain> George: for the last time: read a IRC newbie manual
14:06:12  <yorick> an*
14:06:24  <TrueBrain> @kban yorick 3600 we told you too many times to stop doing that
14:06:25  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!] by DorpsGek
14:06:25  <George> Point a good short one ;)
14:06:26  *** yorick was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [we told you too many times to stop doing that]
14:07:11  <TrueBrain> or something? :p
14:07:15  <TrueBrain> (seriously work ;))
14:08:57  <George> I'm already reading . Can't say that it is very clean from the first read
14:09:00  <rortom> yorick is sometimes ..... :|
14:09:39  <Doorslammer> ... a tit
14:10:06  <TrueBrain> George: okay, because it is you, let me explain a few things: IRC is a real time env. Like a conversaion you are having in a crowdy room. If you are not in the room when the speaker is saying something, you missed it, and you can't get it back
14:10:17  <TrueBrain> it is not like a forum, there are no stickies on the wall which tell you what is said
14:10:38  <TrueBrain> so any previous discusion is lost, and lost for ever, besides the summary in the minds of the people in the room
14:11:00  <TrueBrain> what Belugas meant, was for you to join here, so when ever he is around (or who ever wants to conitnue on it), have you in the room, so you can participate
14:11:06  <George> that is bad because of time zones :(
14:11:19  <TrueBrain> in no way Belugas meant that he wanted you to read back the discussion that had already happened
14:11:22  <TrueBrain> a bit clear to you now? :)
14:11:29  <TrueBrain> in general we do just fine :)
14:12:44  <TrueBrain> then it needs to be noted that this channel is logged, and can be read back (like yorick is doing now), but that is most of the time impossible to read back; also, the developers channel is not publicly logged (for various of reasons)
14:13:25  <George> I understood this already, the problem was how to use this right way. Today is Sunday and I have time to be online at this time, but in most days this would not happen.
14:13:48  <TrueBrain> and Belugas is rarely online on a sunday
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14:13:53  <TrueBrain> so that makes the situation sligthly less useful ;)
14:14:09  <George> This is what I was afraid of :(
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15:10:00  <George> What is better - to be connected IRC while being of-line personally or connect IRC for chating that would happen once a week or so? Is there some way to make e-mail notification to join IRC now? So I could join IRC only when my participation is required?
15:14:22  <Aali> If you can, stay connected 24/7
15:15:01  <Aali> your client should tell you when someone says your name, so you can answer peoples questions whenever you have time
15:15:42  <George> My PC is 24/7 and chatzilla can be always open. But me myself would appear rarely.
15:16:41  *** NukeBuster [~NukeBuste@] has quit [Quit:]
15:17:18  <George> Well, Try saying my name, I'll look how would it tell me about it, please.
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15:18:46  <Aali> George
15:18:57  <Aali> there should be some kind of highlighting
15:19:05  <yorick> George
15:19:32  <George> It blinks orange. Well. I'll make a try with it.
15:19:41  <Aali> additionally, you should be able to mark yourself as away, and your client should then be able to provide a backlog of highlighted messages when you come back
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15:19:58  <Aali> atleast mine does
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15:21:02  <George> And what would happen if my nick would become changed? (As it was stated above, nick George does not belong to me)
15:21:39  <Aali> there's probably an option to add additional words to highlight on
15:22:00  <Aali> so adding George would make sure its always highlighted
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15:24:56  <George> Does anybody has chatzilla? If yes, could you point me highlighted tab? I could not find it from the first attempt.
15:27:19  <Sacro> heh, how long before the usual "George" appears
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15:27:34  <Ammler> George: I know at least one other german who does use that nick too :-)
15:28:11  <ln> i know one who is the president of a big north american country.
15:29:18  <Ammler> well, I meant in this channel...
15:30:22  <Ammler> oh, he is only in the coop channel... :-)
15:30:54  <George> Fine, but what should I do?
15:31:02  <Ammler> register...
15:31:34  <George> where?
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15:31:51  <Ammler> here :-)
15:32:21  <ln> Ammler is trying to confuse you.
15:32:52  <George> How?
15:33:08  <Ammler> '/msg nickserv register
15:34:40  <Ammler> ups, I didn't read him proper, he is called gregor, so nvm.
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15:38:50  <George> It says
15:38:52  <George> > Nickname George is already registered. If this is your nickname you may try IDENTIFY instead. If this is not your nickname then it may have been registered by someone else first. Please choose another nickname and try again, or if you believe this nickname to be unused, contact network support.
15:38:54  <George> What to do?
15:39:03  <Aali> is there no way to redefine an action3 of a vehicle in another grf without including the sprites?
15:39:30  <George> I could not find a way to do it
15:39:36  <frosch123> Aali: no, there isn't
15:40:17  <Ammler> George: /nick <othernick>
15:40:39  <Aali> seems like that should be doable
15:40:57  <frosch123> Aali: btw. vehicles are already special, as you can modify action0 from outside. you cannot do that for houses and industries.
15:40:58  <George> 2frosh: Is there a way to use default graphics for a vehicle for one cargo and new graphics for the other cargo?
15:41:16  <Aali> frosch123: i see
15:42:03  <George> Ammler: And what?
15:42:44  <Ammler> ah well, keep your nick as it is, George...
15:43:38  <Aali> thats the final nail in my ECS adapter coffin then :P
15:43:45  <frosch123> George: no, also that is not possible
15:45:06  <George> I supposed that. Let me dream about a day when I could define vehicles graphics as good as houses and industries :(
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17:06:43  <Aali> oh hey, George, while you're here, i've got a problem with ECS
17:07:00  <Aali> industries aren't accepting cargo from the chemical vector
17:07:15  <Aali> its listed as a resource, but they never accept it
17:07:37  <Aali> glass works wont take potash, power plant wont take oil
17:11:06  <Aali> oh and banks want me to transport gold, not valuables, in temperate
17:14:17  <TrueBrain> so to summarize it, you didn't load ECS :p
17:15:08  <Aali> very funny, but no, all the other vectors work
17:15:33  <TrueBrain> tnx, I know I am very funny :)
17:16:53  <George> Potash bug is reported. I did not test the fix yet, Let me know if this GRF fixes potash problem
17:18:03  <George> Power plant accepts oil after 1950 as soon as one of coal image is replaced with a tank image
17:21:26  <George> Bank and gold mine are controlled with parameter 0. See for details
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17:24:26  <Ammler> George: some of the ECS graphics aren't that "TTDish", are there plans to replace them?
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17:26:45  <George> Yes, as soon as some one would draw it :)
17:27:20  <Ammler> hmm, I guess, there would be some drawer, if you would make a request :-)
17:27:28  <Aali> ah, right, i see my power plant just changed
17:27:30  <Aali> nice
17:27:37  <Aali> didn't even know you could do that
17:28:12  <Ammler> ECS is one best documented GRFSets...
17:28:17  <Ammler> of
17:28:48  <Aali> the
17:28:54  <Ammler> :-)
17:29:47  <George> Unfortunately not. Any help with documentation or drawing is welcome
17:30:31  <Ammler> what is missing on the documentation?
17:31:10  <Aali> oh and i read somewhere on the wiki that ECS could stop working in 2100-something
17:31:20  <Aali> is that true? what happens?
17:31:34  <George> a lot. for example
17:33:01  <George> I hope beta 5 should not. beta 4 worked only between 1920 and 2050. Hope beta 5 would work. Anyway, bug reports are welcome
17:33:22  <Aali> right
17:33:28  <Aali> we'll see
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17:42:42  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r14558 /trunk/src/rail_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r13957): Converting the track type of a tunnel/bridge could cause trains to get stuck.
17:43:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> "the best" does not mean it is actually "good", just that all others are worse :p
17:43:36  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause2: true words
17:44:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> just like <insert favorite religion/os/editor> is "the best" :p
17:45:09  <Sacro> Christianity/ArchLinux/vim
17:46:20  <Ammler> I said "_one_ of the"
17:47:06  <Eddi|zuHause2> yeah, that's a direct lemma, because if you are not "the best", you are actually even worse
17:48:24  <Ammler> true :-)
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17:52:24  <Aali> George: that did indeed fix the potash issue, but the old chemical vector is very outdated, isn't it?
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18:04:36  <George> Yes, but the new one does not contain potash.
18:05:10  <Aali> indeed
18:05:18  <Aali> and thats a shame
18:06:05  <George> unfortunately, there is a 32 slot limit. I can't change that
18:06:27  <Aali> but the new chemical vector doesn't add any new cargoes?
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18:17:27  <fjb> Hello
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18:21:55  <Aali> George: so why were they (potash&sulphur) removed from the new vector?
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18:22:54  <George> Because I plan to use them in the other place (Town vector)
18:23:32  <Aali> i see
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18:51:45  <Aali> George: in the fund new industry window, the description for sawmills is in french :P my ottd is in english
18:54:57  <George> Fixed
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19:32:38  <CIA-5> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r14559 /trunk/src/ (train_cmd.cpp vehicle.cpp): -Fix [FS#2387]: A train could be blocked inside a depot if it was reversed just after leaving the depot.
19:34:27  <Aali> George: i also managed to get a NOT_REACHED crash in GetStringsWithArgs after building a tourist centre in the scenario editor, might not be your fault though
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19:37:07  <George> Unfortunately there is not enough information here. Can you reproduce it? If yes, send a scenario and a place where putting a castle crashes a game.
19:37:40  <Aali> yeah, i'm working on it
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19:39:14  <Aali> it is indeed reproducible
19:40:08  <frosch123> then post it on
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19:57:15  <Aali> seems to be a bad error message somewhere
19:58:14  <Aali> (only way i've been able to reproduce it is trying to build tourist centers at random)
19:59:10  <George> I'm writing abstract industry code and would like to ask. How many times should industry production be higher in 2050 than in 1920 at the highest production level?
19:59:12  <George> I selected 25, but isn't it too much? I mean 1000 units in 1920-th and 25000 units in 2050. and even more in the later years.
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20:05:20  <Ammler> George: you do not allow multiple industries benear each other, so a little bit more then default would be nice
20:05:35  <Ammler> default is 4k, iirc
20:06:11  <Ammler> 25k is quite much more :-)
20:06:27  <George> I meant PROCESSING industry
20:06:34  <Ammler> oh
20:06:44  <Ammler> well, then 25k is fine, imo.
20:07:09  <George> Default ones were unlimited (and some users archived 32K AFAIR)
20:07:36  <Ammler> coop industries are around 10-20k
20:08:09  <Ammler> can't remember, we ever reached 20k
20:09:11  <Ammler> btw. I miss a switch on ECS to build same industry together
20:09:19  <George> Well, my question was about production change during time, meaning modern industries use modern technologies and having higher production.
20:09:30  <George> there is no switch like taht
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20:10:18  <Ammler> I wouldn't miss it, if there would be one :P
20:11:06  <Ammler> you need quite a lot primary resource to reach 10k or more
20:11:31  <Ammler> so I think, you could hold it lower...
20:11:47  <George> in 2050-th?
20:11:55  <Ammler> yes.
20:12:22  <George> how low? what are values for 1920, 1950, 2000, 2050?
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20:13:14  <Ammler> I would more like if you need to build a 2. identical processing industrie
20:13:15  <frosch123> productivity increased by a average of 1.8% in the last decades
20:13:28  <frosch123> (1.8% per year)
20:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> !calc 1.018**130
20:14:19  <Eddi|zuHause2> @calc 1.018**130
20:14:19  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause2: 10.1674288062
20:14:20  <frosch123> so 130 years from 1920 to 2050 would be about factor 10
20:14:45  <Mark> Ammler: we reached 30k several times
20:14:53  <Mark> game 60, for example
20:15:23  <Ammler> that was the 2k trains game?
20:15:28  <Mark> no
20:15:37  <George> What for do you a need a switch to build industries nearby? You have irregular stations which can spread wide enough.
20:15:45  <Mark> 66 it was, not 60
20:15:50  <Eddi|zuHause2> the change is probably more drastic during the 19th century
20:16:07  <Mark> this one
20:16:13  <Ammler> George: yeah pre1920 industry would rock :-)
20:16:30  <Aali> still can't reproduce it reliably, but i got some more info
20:16:42  <Aali> its trying to fetch string 216 from the GRF
20:17:20  <Aali> and that in turn triggers some bad stuff
20:17:49  <Aali> probably because there's some garbage in the string
20:17:52  <Eddi|zuHause2> Ammler: for a timescale like that, it should not be the same industries producing different amounts, it should rather be different industries which probably should be much smaller area-wise
20:18:20  <George> I decided that per 1925-th production would be a constant :)
20:19:30  <Eddi|zuHause2> if you play a game in 18xx, you really need tiny industries that you can deliver locally
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20:19:48  <Eddi|zuHause2> so you need small industries, but a lot of them, forming a very fine grid
20:20:08  <George> 2Eddi|zuHause2: But I can't change industry size in game. I can force the old industry to close, while the new one would have a different size, but me doubts a player would like such behaviour.
20:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> then, as the technology evolves, you can start bringing more cargo over longer distances
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20:21:24  <Eddi|zuHause2> George: why not? it is done with oil wells and oil rigs in the original game, too
20:21:43  <George> So. Would users like that in 1920-th / 1950-th old industries would close down and new ones would appear?
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20:22:03  <Ammler> tobacco/spice
20:22:24  <George> And did you like it? I never transported oil from oil wells in temperate.
20:22:42  <Eddi|zuHause2> you don't necessarily need to force the old industries to close, it would just get not lucrative for the player to serve such tiny amounts of cargo anymore
20:22:50  <frosch123> George: IMO that depends on how long they are available
20:23:10  <frosch123> i.e. the oil wells only decrease production in original game
20:23:35  <frosch123> but when they would behave normal from 1850 - 1950, things would be different
20:23:35  <George> 2frosch: and what do you suggest?
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20:24:41  <Eddi|zuHause2> George: may i suggest you an IRC gimmick that nearly all clients support? when you want to type a nickname of a person in the chat, type their starting letters, and then press the <tab> key
20:24:44  <frosch123> and someone who starts with horses and 10 kmh trains in 1800 has to replace his whole network anyway at some point
20:25:02  <Eddi|zuHause2> and leave out this "2", that is very disturbing...
20:25:06  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
20:25:12  <frosch123> lol
20:25:26  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean the other 2 ;)
20:25:28  <Ammler> :-D
20:25:35  <TrueBrain> now that is worth a quote ;)
20:25:51  <George> well, what amounts of production are good for which time?
20:26:17  <Ammler> 19th century
20:26:20  <Eddi|zuHause> that depends very much on player's taste
20:26:30  <George> Eddi|zuHause: thank you
20:26:49  <Ammler> around a 1/10 of 1950
20:27:21  <SmatZ> for me, 2000 production is fine, no matter what time it is...
20:27:40  <Ammler> poor horses :P
20:27:57  <SmatZ> :-)
20:28:05  <SmatZ> there are tons of them
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20:28:11  * frosch123 hates primary industries producing more than 1000 units
20:28:14  <SmatZ> you can "build" them ;)
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20:28:36  <frosch123> when playing with a wagon speed limit of 80 or 120 kmh, I need a whole track to only service a single industry
20:28:36  <SmatZ> why, frosch123? because 1 platform loading station isn't enough?
20:28:47  <frosch123> I would not care about the platform
20:28:51  <George> frosch123: we are speaking about SECONDARY industries
20:28:52  <SmatZ> :)
20:28:59  <SmatZ> ah...
20:29:05  * SmatZ goes back to work :)
20:29:16  <Ammler> well, but 2. depense on 1.
20:29:30  <frosch123> but at some point there is no sense in a network, when a single industry needs its own track
20:29:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd say on average, you should have 10 primary industries to serve 1 secondary industry
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20:30:13  <Eddi|zuHause> so 1000 is fine when each primary industry provides 100
20:30:33  <frosch123> George: well, the difference is, that I control how much secondary industries produce, by stopping delivering them
20:30:38  <Eddi|zuHause> for horse carriages, you cannot expect them to haul 100 items per month, though
20:30:41  <George> Eddi|zuHause: I planned 3-7 primary for 1 secondary in average, but the number should grow during gameplay
20:31:15  <Eddi|zuHause> George: keep in mind that the production of primary industries also rises
20:31:38  <George> but less than secondary ones.
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20:33:18  <George> frosch123: So, how many items should it produce on the highest level before 1900, in 1920, 1950, 2000, 2050?
20:33:29  <frosch123> well for farms one could say, 9 of 10 close down from 1860 to 1950, and the other increase production by factor 50 or so
20:34:22  <George> 50? Interesting. Do you have the same statistics for other industries?
20:34:38  <frosch123> err, that was a wild guess of my imagination :)
20:35:00  <George> :))))
20:35:35  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the number of people working in agriculture did decrease from something like 90% to 4% in the last 200 years
20:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> which was the start of all this industrialisation mess in the first place, increasing the efficiency of agriculture ;)
20:36:49  <George> frosch123: BTW that would require OTTDs code to have different amount of industries to generate before 1900, and after 1920.
20:38:56  <frosch123> <- at the bottom is some table, the last column "ΔPi" is the increment rate of productivity
20:39:12  <frosch123>
20:39:20  <frosch123> stupid client
20:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> i could imagine giving the industries some overall "weight", so not all industries are considered equal with regard to industry generation... so you could have 100 farms or 5 factories with the same industry density setting
20:39:52  <Ammler> but don't look to deep in that :-)
20:40:10  <Ammler> else you should read Belugas nice text about R*
20:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause> this is not about r*, it is about gameplay balance
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20:46:24  <George> I read that text. But that does not remove the idea
20:46:34  <Zuu> Is anyone aware of a stand-alone program to query a OpenTTD server of the info that can be optained from it? I'm aware of OpenTTDLib in php, which is a possibility by making a php-file that takes ip and port as input and deliveries the result from the OpenTTD server.
20:47:05  <TrueBrain> I never read anyone making a true stand-alone application doing that, besides OpenTTD itself
20:47:10  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: what are you actually asking?
20:47:20  <TrueBrain> (well, and except ottd-update (part of MasterServer))
20:48:20  <Zuu> A solution to get the version of an OpenTTD server form a stand-alone program.
20:48:29  <Ammler> Zuu: there is something with python too
20:48:38  <Zuu> Ammler: Ok.
20:48:58  <TrueBrain> Zuu:
20:50:07  <Zuu> TrueBrain: That looks interesting, thank you.
20:50:25  <TrueBrain> it is what fills
20:52:02  <ln>,3998907
20:52:14  <George> would 2K in 1920 and 14k in 2050 be Ok?
20:52:46  <Ammler> if you can build a 2. in 2050 :-)
20:53:25  <Ammler> but well, ECS is very hard to manage anyway.
20:54:25  <George> Ammler: What is wrong?
20:54:35  <Ammler> nothing wrong
20:54:48  <Ammler> just not that easy as default, which is fine, imo.
20:55:33  <Ammler> I guess, there is no server using ECS atm.
20:59:07  <frosch123> gnight
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21:08:30  <Eddi|zuHause> ln: where do you always get the scariest news from?
21:11:57  <ln> the Internet Relay Chat
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21:19:14  <Wolf01> 'night
21:19:18  *** Wolf01 [] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.]
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21:23:09  <ln> he just can't leave silently.
21:26:54  <Eddi|zuHause> at least he is quick to be buried
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21:57:05  <George> frosch:
21:57:07  <George> Looks Like I got the similar bug for industry construction
21:57:08  <George>   308 * 21	 04 0A FF 01 E5 DC "ÞCement works" 00
21:57:10  <George>   309 * 21	 04 0A 82 01 E5 DC "ÞZementfabrik" 00
21:57:11  <George>   310 * 24	 04 0A 83 01 E5 DC "ÞUsine de béton" 00
21:57:13  <George>   311 * 18	 04 0A 84 01 E5 DC "ÞCementera" 00
21:57:14  <George>   312 * 38	 04 0A 87 01 E5 DC "ÞЊеЌеМтМый завПЎ" 00
21:57:16  <George>   313 * 28	 04 0A A7 01 E5 DC "ÞFabbrica di cemento" 00
21:57:17  <George> OTTD Error text: String 0xDCE5 isinvalid. Probably because an old version of the .lng file.
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21:58:47  <Rubidium> George: don't expect frosch to read that
21:58:58  <Celestar> \o
21:59:07  <Aali> yeah, he's not here
21:59:11  <Rubidium> evening Celestar
21:59:28  <Aali> but there's something going on with the strings in ECS, thats for sure
21:59:39  <ln> *that's
21:59:47  <Aali> i posted my issue on flyspray
22:00:47  <Eddi|zuHause> but nobody points out the grammatical error in the error message :p
22:01:28  *** Aylomen [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:01:39  <ln> *of
22:03:02  * Celestar 's sick in bed :(
22:03:25  * TrueBrain hopes Celestar feels better very soon
22:03:31  <TrueBrain> on the good side, you now have time for cargodest ;)
22:03:32  <TrueBrain> hehe
22:03:45  <ln> please state the nature of the medical emergency!
22:04:39  <Celestar> ln: I'm shitting about half a liter of water per hour ...
22:05:21  <Eddi|zuHause> thanks for that image
22:05:28  <thingwath> in bed?
22:05:30  <ln> that's... hmm, hopefully your nearest emergency medical hologram can help :/
22:05:58  <Celestar> I'm commuting between the bed and the loo
22:05:59  <Celestar> :P
22:06:23  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
22:06:26  <Celestar> without the laptop I might add
22:06:28  <Rubidium> I hope DB doesn't charge too much for that
22:06:36  <Celestar> Rubidium: DB?
22:06:54  <stillunknown> Deutsche Bahn i guess
22:06:55  <Rubidium> you're not commuting by train? ;)
22:07:07  <Celestar> er nope ^^
22:07:37  <thingwath> Week ago I had a plan to use trolleybus for trips to WC.
22:07:50  <Celestar> hey they found 6 more planets this week ^^
22:10:44  <Rubidium> only 6?
22:10:56  <Rubidium> and they say there are billions of them
22:12:14  <Celestar> that's not a bad rate for the crude instruments we have, that can mostly detect massive planets in close orbits (which are theoretically rare)
22:13:18  <Celestar> I think I'll call it a day
22:13:24  <Celestar> cu tomorrow
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22:35:37  <Char> re
22:37:21  <TrueBrain> ra
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22:37:34  <Aali> ro
22:38:53  <ln> ir
22:42:36  <Sacro|Laptop> ru
22:43:25  <thingwath> ry(chlik)
22:44:05  <Eddi|zuHause> frÃŒstÃŒk?
22:44:48  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: isn't it a little late/early for that?
22:44:54  <TrueBrain> Kung Fu Panda .. would that be any good movie :s
22:45:41  <Rubidium> better than burn after reading
22:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> <- Rubidium: it's a parody on turkish and morning TV, which explains the weird spelling ;)
22:49:24  * Rubidium likes bernie und ert more
22:49:46  <Eddi|zuHause> different parody :p
22:49:52  <Rubidium> true
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23:06:44  *** Zuu [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:07:19  <Aali> wow, what is up with these horse carriages
23:07:26  <TrueBrain> Friend of mine starts to play OpenTTD ... she starts to complain she can't build busses ... so after a few basic questions, I ask: what year are you in .. 1892 ... and you wonder why you can't build busses? Hehe ...
23:07:53  <Aali> its like they're skipping orders with every other frame
23:08:27  <Aali> which means they just keep going around randomly, never stopping at any stations
23:09:01  <Eddi|zuHause> falling asleep on the "D" key?
23:09:18  <Aali> happens to all five of them
23:09:27  <Aali> trains work fine, trying faster vehicles
23:09:37  <Eddi|zuHause> wrong kind of station?
23:09:54  <Rubidium> or... unreachable station
23:09:58  <Aali> you can't even give orders if your stations are wrong
23:10:14  <Aali> the stations really shouldn't be unreachable
23:10:21  <Eddi|zuHause> or someone screwed up with multistop reservation?
23:10:39  <Aali> i have 10 tiles of road between two simple lorry stations
23:11:32  <Aali> hmm
23:11:42  <Aali> trucks of the same speed do work
23:12:00  <Aali> am i supposed to build some special type of stations for horse carriages?
23:13:14  *** Vikthor [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:13:27  <ln> does someone have a link to Obama's "informercial" in HD?
23:14:36  *** lobstah is now known as lobster
23:14:59  <TrueBrain> try building busstations? :p
23:15:28  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it gets confused with cargo refits?
23:15:30  <Rubidium> try building drive through stops
23:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> or that
23:15:40  <Aali> ah, no they're articulated
23:15:50  <Aali> Rubidium: spot on
23:17:04  <Aali> heh, broken horse carriages are drawn without the horses
23:17:31  <Aali> with improved breakdowns you get ghost carriages that move on their own :D
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23:21:16  <SmatZ> hehe
23:21:30  <SmatZ> horses died, waiting for new ones
23:21:51  <SmatZ> better than horses with smoke...
23:22:23  <TrueBrain> lol
23:23:05  <SmatZ> :-)
23:23:33  <Aali> actually, they do smoke too
23:23:43  <TrueBrain> bad for your health
23:24:08  <Aali> when they have a "mechanical failure" which is basically the same as a vanilla breakdown
23:24:23  <thingwath> to burn them is easier than to burry them
23:24:57  <SmatZ> hmm strange, in my version of LV4, there is both smoke and horsies
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23:35:30  <Char> carriages?
23:35:35  <Char> what kind of version is that?
23:35:45  <Aali> its a grf
23:35:49  <Char> LV4?
23:35:52  <Aali> egrvts
23:37:35  <Char> hmmm
23:37:38  <Char> looks nice
23:39:04  <Char> i wonder if it is possible to play the game solely with road vehicles
23:39:23  <TrueBrain> of course it is
23:39:23  <Char> no trains :P
23:39:24  <Aali> of course it is
23:39:26  <Char> well
23:39:27  <Char> i mean
23:39:30  <TrueBrain> lol @ Aali :)
23:39:32  <Char> usefully playable
23:39:34  <Char> like
23:39:52  <Char> can you support a 1000+ goods/month factory with it?
23:40:38  <Aali> the only bad thing about RVs is that you can't control them in the same way you can control your trains
23:41:54  <SmatZ> multistop is limited to 16 loading bays / station
23:42:15  <Aali> but you can always have more stations
23:42:21  <SmatZ> yeah :)
23:42:50  <Aali> 16 loading bays with high traffic is bound to cause some serious jamming too
23:43:04  <Char> ;)
23:43:14  <Char> my trains jam as well, so....
23:46:47  <Aali> Char:
23:47:09  <Aali> download the save for PSG111 and have a look
23:47:47  <Char> wow
23:50:19  <Char> thats horribly slow :P
23:51:11  <Eddi|zuHause> TT was horribly slow with 80 trains on my 386 DX25
23:51:30  <Char> good thing with RVs is that you do not need any signalling
23:51:55  <Char> TT was pretty okay if you had not too many trains on my 386 DX40
23:51:56  <Aali> bad thing with RVs is that you can't do any signaling
23:52:28  <Eddi|zuHause> 40 is significantly more than 25
23:52:30  <Char> the 368 SX25 processor which was in that computer earlier (and the 8x 128KB RAM) was slower though
23:52:55  <Char> that thing had a turbo switch which you had to switch on to get 25 MHz
23:53:03  <Char> otherwise it was running with 8 MHz
23:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause> even on my 486 SX25 laptop it was significantly faster
23:53:25  <Char> hmmm
23:53:48  <Char> you remember the games that did not have any kind of control for the speed they were running at?
23:53:53  <Char> just running as fast as it got?
23:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:54:02  <Char> like... nibbles for example :P
23:54:11  <Eddi|zuHause> i usually started those under windows, so they run slower :p
23:54:24  <Char> which kindof sucked at 25 MHz but was pretty okay at 8 MHz
23:54:29  <Char> hmmm
23:54:42  <Char> and warcraft1 was running much faster at my friends 486
23:54:46  <Eddi|zuHause> my computer did not have a turbo button
23:54:53  <Char> too bad ;)
23:55:17  <Eddi|zuHause> it was worse when my brother thought he found the turbo button
23:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> but it was the reset button...
23:55:27  <Char> ;)
23:55:31  <Char> hmmm
23:55:38  <TrueBrain> hmm .. turbo button ...
23:55:53  <Char> i remember that the computer did not turn off when you pressed the power button but only when you released it
23:55:55  <Eddi|zuHause> which he of course had to press immediately before i had a chance to correct him...
23:56:12  <TrueBrain> Char: pretty normal for mechanical switches :)
23:56:12  <Char> so i remember pushing the power button and then realizing that i should not yet switch off
23:56:16  <Eddi|zuHause> that is normal
23:56:17  <Char> so i had to hold that thing
23:56:23  <Char> for a while.....
23:56:28  <TrueBrain> we all been there :)
23:56:43  <Char> until i realized that if you were quick enough you could release it and press it again without the computer going off
23:56:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but mine was not such a pushing switch, so it was different
23:57:11  <Char> hmmm
23:57:13  <TrueBrain> before that I had a real switch
23:57:16  <TrueBrain> not a press button :p
23:57:27  <Char> the best switch i ever had though was much later
23:57:37  <Char> on a pentium3 or something like that
23:58:20  <Char> a friend of mine had a computer on his desk which did not have any case.... otherwise it was fine though. problem was that without a case, you did not have any power switch
23:58:25  <Char> so you could not turn it on
23:58:34  <Eddi|zuHause> my father loved the power switch on his Colani tower, because he could switch it with his big toe
23:58:35  <thingwath> screwdriver...
23:58:46  <Char> however, the power switch basically does nothing else than connect the pins on the mainboard
23:58:53  <Char> yes, a screwdriver worked pretty well ;)
23:59:06  <Char> Eddi|zuHause: rofl
23:59:08  <TrueBrain> I still do that when working on a computer
23:59:15  * thingwath loves screwdrivers
23:59:17  <TrueBrain> the reset button only works a bit more annoying
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23:59:43  <TrueBrain> nothing a jumper can't fix ;)

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