Log for #openttd on 19th February 2009:
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00:12:07  <Felicitus> Yexo: are you still here?
00:12:22  <Yexo> I'm still here
00:12:48  <Felicitus> i'm wondering why exceptions are printed in the console if they were caught
00:13:43  <Rubidium> probably because exceptions are printed once thrown instead of when not caught by the AI
00:13:54  <Yexo> iirc it wan't possible to disable printing it when the error was caught. It was either printing all of them or printing no errors at all
00:14:03  <Felicitus> hmm
00:14:07  <Felicitus> thats a little problem for me :)
00:14:19  <Felicitus> seems that i have to avoid exceptions
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00:15:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15518 /trunk/src/ (npf.cpp pathfind.h ship_cmd.cpp yapf/yapf_destrail.hpp): -Fix [FS#2631]: use distance to closest station tile as estimate for YAPF too (NPF already does so). This makes it behave 'better' with wide stations.
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00:26:42  <Felicitus> hmm...would it be possible to add a method to AIError to temporarly suspend printing exception messages to the console? Something like AIError.debugExceptions(true|false) ?
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00:32:36  <Bjarni> night
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00:33:05  <Yexo> Felicitus: that is possible, but imo unwanted behaviour
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00:33:29  <Eddi|zuHause> the ignore function on the forum goes not far enough... by... err... far...
00:34:37  <Rubidium> tlue vely tlue
00:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> i do not want threads of ignored persons to appear on the forum listing
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00:35:08  <Eddi|zuHause> and i want to ignore any threads which have "mac os" in their title
00:35:17  <Eddi|zuHause> and i want to ignore certain subforums...
00:35:39  <Rubidium> like suggestions?
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00:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, anything that is tempting to click on it, when it says "new posts here"
00:36:21  <Felicitus> Yexo: the problem is, my station builder uses alot of this.assert2(this.BuildRailTrack(-1,0, 2)); - and assert2 simply throws an exception if the tile cannot be built, so i can catch that exception later and see if something went wrong. the other way would be to add an if-check to each of the build steps, but that is alot of overhead for the programmer
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00:37:07  <Eddi|zuHause> Felicitus: asserts are not for exception handling
00:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> asserts are for programming mistakes
00:37:28  <Yexo> Felicitus: "if (!functioncall()) return false;" or "this.assert2(functioncall());" <- not much difference
00:37:30  <Eddi|zuHause> not for checking
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00:37:35  <Felicitu1> whoops
00:37:39  <Felicitu1> Eddi|zuHause: i know. but its easiest to throw an exception in the assert2 method
00:38:06  <Yexo> and about not printing the call stack: as some point someone will forget to enable it again and his AI will crashing without him knowing
00:38:38  <Felicitu1> hmm good point
00:39:14  <Felicitu1> but to print out each and every exception is also a littlebit overflows the debug console even if the exceptions are caught
00:40:01  <Felicitu1> and to make things worse, the ai debug console seems to limit at some point - that's why i didnt see my debug print statements and because of that i got confused, failing to see that the real problem is at another position
00:40:48  <Yexo> you can redirect the output to the ingame console, that one has a much higher limit (it won't split messages from other AIs though)
00:41:16  <Yexo> and if you really think exceptions generate too much output, simply don't use them :p
00:41:22  <Felicitu1> yes, but it seems that the ingame console doesn't receive print() and AILog.*-messages
00:41:45  <Felicitu1> well, i really have no clue how to solve it cleanly. exceptions provide a pretty nice control flow at that point
00:41:45  <Yexo> use "debug_level ai=5" first
00:42:48  <Yexo> and mind that using print() is discouraged
00:43:03  <Felicitu1> yes, i use it only for quick debug hacks
00:43:17  <Yexo> it works now, but it's not in the api docs, and if the regression test didn't use it I'd already have removed it
00:43:41  <Felicitu1> ah okay, now i got the stuff in the ingame console. that helps
00:44:05  <Felicitu1> but i have to avoid exceptions now...makes no sense to spam any log full with caught exceptions :(
00:44:26  <Felicitu1> that least 20 statements per station type wrapped around with if's :(
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00:46:45  <Rubidium> why does this make me think of people coding like:
00:47:25  <Felicitus> thats really horrible
00:48:17  <Felicitus> that's how it look in the station builder:
00:49:10  <Felicitus> the station builder supports a test mode, which makes assert2 to throw an exception, avoiding to execute the other build statements because they are not needed anymore, and the test returns false
00:49:12  <Yexo> Felicitus: I still fail to see the problem with "if (!function) return false;" there
00:49:48  <Eddi|zuHause> eh? "who needs len(array) when you can catch boundary exception"?
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00:50:13  <SmatZ> hehe :)
00:50:16  <Felicitus> Yexo: of course, it's valid, but the station you see there is just a simple station...imagine a larger station, wrapping each and every build command with an if is well...impractical
00:50:27  <Rubidium> doesn't look nicer?
00:50:42  <Yexo> so instead of wrapping every buid command with an if you have no problem wrapping it with "this.assert2"?
00:51:01  <Felicitus> good point yexo
00:51:03  <Eddi|zuHause> the funny thing about that is, it will also catch out-of-bounds exceptison in "ToString()", and you'll never know
00:51:55  <Felicitus> Rubidium: does it stop executing the calls if one of them returns false?
00:52:00  <SmatZ> :-D @ Eddi
00:52:06  <Yexo> Felicitus: yes it does
00:52:15  <Felicitus> thats an idea
00:52:37  <Felicitus> and it would be easy to implement in the station parser
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00:54:52  <Felicitus> oh that now that i talk of it: it isn't possible to write to external files with the AI, right? because i dump the commands required for the station to the console, but everything is prefixed with dbg: [ai] [1] [P]
00:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> you can redirect the ingame console to a file
00:55:25  <Felicitus> -that
00:55:39  <Yexo> you can use a simple sed script to rememove that prefix
00:55:49  <Rubidium> | sed 's/dbg: .ai. .1. .P.//'
00:55:54  <Felicitus> oh thanks
00:56:00  <Felicitus> i'm not into regular expressions at all
00:56:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's alright, you could as well use AWK ;)
00:56:45  <Felicitus> hehe
00:56:56  <Rubidium> or perl
00:57:20  <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, perl is one huge regexp :p
00:57:25  <SmatZ> :o)
00:58:31  <Rubidium> or cut
00:59:14  <Rubidium> or any text editor with block selection
01:00:34  <Felicitus> i think block selection is on the wishlist for eclipse for a very long time
01:01:06  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, night
01:01:13  <Felicitus> good night
01:02:03  <Felicitus> jesus
01:02:17  <Felicitus> block selection is on the wishlist for eclipse since 2002 :)
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01:09:02  <Yexo> good night all
01:11:01  <Felicitus> good night Yexo
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01:16:56  <Sacro>
01:16:59  * Sacro headbangs
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01:52:13  <welshdragon> anybody here that can help me with PBS?
01:52:31  <welshdragon> i think i may have done it wrong xD
01:52:52  <Elukka> maybe
01:52:59  <Elukka> what are you having problems with?
01:53:11  <welshdragon> -i'll show you
01:53:20  <Sacro> welshdragon: course you've done it wrong
01:53:24  <Sacro> 'tard :P
01:53:32  <welshdragon> wow
01:53:44  <Sacro> mwahahaha :D
01:53:52  <welshdragon> way to gett me back for earlier Sacro
01:54:00  <Sacro> i forgot about earlier
01:55:47  <Sacro> hehe
01:55:50  * Sacro yawns
01:56:01  * Sacro cuddles up to Belugas
01:56:32  <welshdragon> Elukka, < ALL PLATFORRMS ARE BI DIRECTIONAL
01:56:37  <welshdragon> oops, caps
01:57:08  <Elukka> umm, it's way too small to see the signals
01:57:15  <Sacro> ouch
01:57:19  <Sacro> fail
01:57:24  <Elukka> but i'll show what i did
01:57:25  <welshdragon> it shouldn't be
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01:57:36  <Sacro> facebook has compressed the image
01:57:42  <Elukka>
01:57:44  <welshdragon> sigh
01:57:46  <Elukka> see beathwaite springs
01:57:50  <Sacro>
01:57:58  <Elukka> normal PBS signals towards the station platform in both ends
01:58:25  <Felicitus> uhm
01:58:30  <Elukka> the one-ways on the outgoing and incoming tracks are only to make sure they dont go on the wrong rails
01:58:37  <Felicitus> that reminds me of getting started with pbs :)
01:58:49  <Elukka> pbs is easier than normal signals
01:58:54  <Elukka> in my experience anyway
01:59:10  <Felicitus> i only placed 2 pbs in my whole life :)
01:59:12  <Felicitus> so far
02:00:10  <Felicitus> but i dont think there's a way around pbs for my ai :)
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02:03:52  <welshdragon> Elukka, thanks, uit worked
02:04:02  <welshdragon> noew to resatrt services :)
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02:45:21  * Sacro peruses the gsoc site
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05:31:36  <Felicitus> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
05:31:48  <Felicitus> there seems to be no API call to get the power of an engine :(
05:37:48  <Forked> morning
05:43:20  <Felicitus> good morning Forked
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06:15:25  <SJrX> Hmmmmm I have copied the data/ and gm/ folders from my windows copy to my ~/.openttd/ file but openttd says they can't be found?
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06:29:51  <Rubidium> maybe the files/directories use strange capitalisation
06:30:06  <SJrX> yeah it's possible
06:30:44  <Rubidium> or you don't have read access to the files (can sometimes happen when copying stuff from a non-unixy file system)
06:31:22  <Rubidium> Felicitus: add whatever you're missing to
06:31:55  <SJrX> Your 'OPENTTDW.GRF' file is corrupted or missing! This file was part of your installation.
06:32:41  <Rubidium> that file shouldn't be in your home directory's data dir
06:33:30  <SJrX> weird
06:33:30  <Rubidium> you probably copied that from Windows and the version you were using there differs
06:33:34  <SJrX> no I didn't
06:34:05  <SJrX> b6689105405fa3ea34cb8a5543633d29  OPENTTDW.GRF
06:34:10  <SJrX> that's the md5
06:35:25  <SJrX> Time to not use the deb
06:35:33  <Rubidium> that's 0.7.0-beta1/recent trunk
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06:39:29  <SJrX> Yeah
06:39:47  <SJrX> If I want music I just put the gm file either in the gm subdirectory or in ~/.openttd?
06:40:12  <Rubidium> gm file? singular?
06:40:21  <SJrX> folder*
06:40:40  <Rubidium> the folder called gm should be in .openttd
06:40:55  <Rubidium> and make sure you've got timidity installed if you want it played
06:41:21  <Rubidium> and be *very* aware that timidity uses a *LOT* of CPU
06:41:52  <SJrX> really?
06:42:00  <SJrX> that sucks
06:45:53  <Rubidium> just do timidity and see it 'waste' CPU
06:47:45  <Felicitus> Rubidium: too late, i already filed a feature request:)
06:48:39  <Yexo> good morning
06:48:45  <Felicitus> good morning yexo
06:49:18  <Felicitus> but until such a function is available, the ai is pretty lost in evaluating the trains :(
06:49:23  <Yexo> Felicitus: "This function is not exhaustive; a true here does not mean that the vehicle can pull the wagons, a false does mean it can't.". So what needs to be done from the AI programmer's side? <- You should call that result, if it returns false, it can't be attached
06:49:33  <Yexo> if it returns true, you should try and see whether it works
06:49:41  <Felicitus> Yexo: oh ok :)
06:50:12  <Felicitus> in simple words: trust "false", don't trust "true"
06:50:19  <Yexo> that's not perfect, but implementing a perfect function is impossible, since the newgrf can base it's decisions on a lot of things
06:50:27  <Yexo> Felicitus: exactly :)
06:50:27  <Felicitus> yes i guessed that
06:50:54  <Felicitus> i learned two weeks ago that newgrfs can do alot of things
06:51:17  <Yexo> about the power of a train engine, do you only need that in AIEngine or also in AIVehicle? (only for new engines or also the total value for an existing train?)
06:51:33  <Felicitus> i was playing on a modded server, of course i picked the train which had a good reliability, good power and was cheap - until i found out that i cannot attach coal waggons to it :)
06:52:01  <Felicitus> well, for now i just need the power of the engine for new vehicle
06:52:13  <Felicitus> so that the ai can estimate how performant it is
06:52:29  <Felicitus> but i think i need to dig into the openttd core, especially on where the acceleration is calculated
06:52:29  <SJrX> wow lol it's using 25% of my CPU
06:52:31  <SJrX> why is it so bad
06:52:49  <Rubidium> refitting may change power too, but there's no way to find out how much until you do it
06:53:25  <Felicitus> yes, but usually the value which the "new engine" window shows is the one to use in the calculation
06:53:32  <Rubidium> SJrX: when you know, please tell us
06:54:06  <SJrX> lol touche
06:54:08  <SJrX> You guys do good work
06:54:50  <SJrX> Damn I remember having this problem, that I wanted to fix with PBS, but now I can't find the save game, and since I named all my companies the same in all it's just a nightmare
06:54:59  <SJrX> it's weird I remember some of these games from over the years
06:55:31  <Felicitus> SJrX: i noticed that also. i still remember some of my games on kurt's
06:56:35  <SJrX> Found it
06:57:13  <SJrX> Hmmmm I think it's time to start a new game
06:59:31  <Felicitus> Yexo: now that i think of it, it might be also a good idea to retrieve the weight also. i guess it's taken into the calculation how quick a train accelerates, right?
07:00:22  <Rubidium> yes, but depending on the model it's done differently
07:00:40  <Rubidium> but then, so is maximum tractive effort
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07:01:16  <Felicitus> well i dont need exact numbers, just a rough estimate
07:02:56  <Felicitus> so the power should be enough to start off with
07:02:57  <Rubidium> max tractive effort can be very important for acceleration
07:03:33  <Felicitus> hmm, i never had a detail look at that
07:03:51  <Yexo> Felicitus: I don't like half work, so I'll take a look and add several functions, ie GetPower, GetMaxTractiveEffort, GetWeight, etc. (dunno if there is more)
07:03:59  <Felicitus> Yexo: that's great
07:04:59  <Felicitus> Rubidium: if the AI would take *everything* into account, it would never be beatable, so i want to beheave it not so precisely
07:05:23  <Rubidium> if the AI takes everything into account it'd be way too slow
07:05:31  <Felicitus> yes, probably
07:06:32  <Felicitus> but it already beat me in picking the starting spots around 9/10 times :)
07:07:09  <Felicitus> and the one time i won was because a new power station at the opposite map corner was built
07:08:33  <Rubidium> just play like 'rondje (om de kerk)' and you'll beat the AI (assuming you can handle that strategy)
07:08:54  <Felicitus> what's that exactly?
07:09:15  <Rubidium> an AI that's like a parasite
07:10:03  <Felicitus> uhm where can i find information about that? google only spits out dutch sites
07:10:30  <Felicitus> ah
07:10:31  <Felicitus> found it
07:10:51  <Rubidium> ?
07:13:36  <Felicitus> well, i consider selling vehicles at the end as abuse, and neither i nor my engine will do that :)
07:14:06  <Felicitus> how about adding an initial worth loss of the vehicle? :)
07:14:34  <Felicitus> s/worth/value
07:15:59  <Rubidium> has been propose a few times already
07:16:04  <Felicitus> wow, gentoo has a current ebuild for openttd! yay!
07:16:10  <Rubidium> need to implement it in a proper way
07:16:34  <Rubidium> what do you mean with proper?
07:17:13  <Felicitus> that would be great. its already forbidden to sell trains at the end of the line (also called one-way trains) on many servers, but it can't be checked properly by the server :( so many people abuse the rule
07:17:24  <Felicitus> Rubidium: huh?
07:17:55  <Rubidium> s/proper/current/ :)
07:18:36  <Felicitus> current=0.6.3
07:19:02  <Rubidium> yeah, took only 4 months to get through their political games
07:19:19  <Felicitus> ah, thats why
07:20:05  <Felicitus> usually i play on windows, but now i'm on gentoo for the ai development and i havent played a single game for like one week now
07:20:11  <Felicitus> my ranking on kurt's is...well...bad :)
07:20:44  <Rubidium> still dislike gentoo's mutilations
07:21:29  <Felicitus> hmm i'm used to it. as i need unusual configurations on a daily basis, i'm sticking with it since several years now
07:21:42  <Felicitus> if i need some kind of standard configuration, i pick windows ;)
07:21:47  <Rubidium> <- for if you want something that doesn't take 4 months to update
07:22:03  <Rubidium> or rather, it took 6 months to get updated, but that's another story
07:22:14  <Felicitus> :)
07:22:38  <Felicitus> well i use trunk for ai development, so i dont really need the overlay
07:23:17  <Felicitus> hmm how does that sound? reliability 70%, speed 10%, cost 20% when valuating trains?
07:24:18  <Rubidium> depends on the settings
07:24:31  <Rubidium> breakdowns turned off: reliability 0%
07:24:39  <Felicitus> that's a good point
07:27:34  <Felicitus> thanks for the pointer :)
07:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> imho, the reliability should not decrease when breakdowns are off
07:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> solves other things like suggestions for station rating
07:29:57  <Eddi|zuHause> and letting a vehicle leave the depot should reduce value by 20%
07:40:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15519 /trunk/ (14 files in 4 dirs): -Add [NoAI]: support for waypoints by adding AIRail::Build/Remove RailWaypoint, AIWaypoint and AIWaypointList.
07:46:14  <Felicitus> yay
07:46:18  <Felicitus> much thanks Yexo
07:46:42  <Felicitus> $beers["yexo"]++
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08:07:39  <Felicitus> urx - squirrel has got pow() defined in its standard libraries :(
08:08:10  <Yexo> Felicitus: that doens't mean it's available for an AI
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08:08:24  <Yexo> nearly all of the standard squirrel libraries are disabled
08:08:38  <Felicitus> yes, thats why i wrote "urx" :)
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08:15:32  <planetmaker> good morning
08:17:13  <Rubidium> afternoon planetmaker ;)
08:19:18  <dihedral> morning
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08:32:21  <planetmaker> <--- hehe @ dihedral . You're absolutely right
08:32:34  <Felicitus> i hate squirrel
08:32:38  <Felicitus> quote: Statics are read-only.
08:33:04  <Felicitus> do i have to use globals? :(
08:33:36  <dihedral> Felicitus, are you a php guy by any chance?
08:34:09  <Felicitus> dihedral: yep
08:34:16  <Felicitus> oh you mean because i used the term static? :)
08:34:17  <dihedral> planetmaker, i only had intended to write the first to lines, but then the thoughts just started flowing :-P
08:34:31  <dihedral> Felicitus, no, not just :-P
08:34:45  <dihedral> and the term static is used in many languages
08:34:50  <Felicitus> why else, dihedral ?
08:35:29  <dihedral> but you asked if you had to use globals, because of $beers["yexo"]++, and other stuff
08:35:32  <dihedral> just kinda sticks out
08:35:36  <Felicitus> :)
08:35:51  <dihedral> and you should avoid globals in php also ;-)
08:35:56  <dihedral> just a wee hint on the side :-P
08:36:15  <Felicitus> well, i have grown up with basic and then c/c++, but i did alot of php development recently - primarly for business purposes
08:36:28  <Felicitus> dihedral: well, i want to AVOID globals, that's why i was wondering that statics are read only
08:36:49  <dihedral> it's just a trade of a language ;-)
08:37:02  <Felicitus> and when i have a look at other php projects, i believe i am the only guy who writes OO code
08:37:10  <dihedral> ...?
08:37:20  <dihedral> then i you are looking at the wrong stuff
08:37:36  <dihedral> and for sure you have not met DASPRiD
08:37:53  <Felicitus> well, look at phpmyadmin, contenido, typo3, phpbb etc etc
08:37:54  <dihedral> besides, if it's OO for php4, it sucks :-P
08:38:08  <dihedral> typo is OO!
08:38:10  <Felicitus> its not even procedural code, it's...well...mixed up
08:38:11  <dihedral> as is typolight
08:38:11  <Felicitus> it is?
08:38:24  <dihedral> typolight in fact will blow your mind
08:38:41  <Felicitus> last time i looked at typo3 (i have to admit it was several years ago) i found functions everywhere
08:38:48  <Felicitus> but almost no classes :)
08:39:20  <DASPRiD> Just writing OOP ist nothing special, having a good MVC structure is important.
08:39:34  <Felicitus> yes, DASPRiD
08:39:47  <Felicitus> and a good object model
08:40:18  <Felicitus> by the way, dihedral, i'm still waiting for a CMS which uses the ExtJS library
08:40:36  <DASPRiD> all those named projects are simply old, in that time, neither OOP nor MVC was important in any kind
08:40:44  <DASPRiD> ExtJs...
08:41:00  <Felicitus> i'm using that for my current project -
08:41:28  <DASPRiD> 403 Forbidden - One of the most interesting projects ;P
08:41:48  <Felicitus> whoops
08:41:56  <dihedral> yes, there seem to be quite a few of them, or of their parent project 404
08:41:57  <Felicitus>
08:42:13  <Felicitus> copy'n'paste for beginners - dont try that at home, kids
08:42:22  <Felicitus> (a shame i dont know my own URLs :)
08:42:45  <dihedral> device manager for switches? in php?
08:42:47  <dihedral> .....
08:42:49  <dihedral> right
08:43:36  <DASPRiD> Looks weird / wired
08:43:41  <Felicitus> dihedral: what you see is where you can design the switch. and actually that piece runs 100% in the browser. saving/loading devices is done via ajax
08:44:38  <DASPRiD> ajax is so 1990' :/
08:44:55  <Felicitus> what would you use? ;)
08:44:59  <DASPRiD> json
08:45:11  <Felicitus> uhm...
08:45:13  <Felicitus> aha
08:45:15  <db48x> ajaj is the new thing
08:45:23  <DASPRiD> db48x, correct
08:45:25  <dihedral> i wrote a hardware configurator for appliances once
08:45:30  <dihedral> for the last company i worked for
08:45:33  <Felicitus> well, yes, actually it is ajaj then
08:45:41  <dihedral> it's online
08:45:46  <Felicitus> now that you say
08:45:48  <dihedral> it runs 100% with oo js
08:46:03  <dihedral> only downside, the company never populated it with the data
08:46:07  <DASPRiD> talking about oo js:
08:46:34  <Felicitus> dihedral: that's what I'm heading for also. i started the project a few years ago, and did stuff here and there, but now it's time to put the whole thing on a completely new platform
08:47:02  <Felicitus> for example, the canvas support for the device editor is oo, but the rest of the platform isn't
08:47:16  <dihedral> my highscore has been saved, Darkvater
08:47:17  <dihedral> ops
08:47:18  <dihedral> DASPRiD,
08:47:27  <DASPRiD> dihedral, first level? ;)
08:47:42  <Felicitus> by the way, if someone wants to try that device editor yourself: then
08:47:55  <Felicitus> DAMN
08:48:12  <Felicitus> even
08:49:06  <db48x> otoh, ajaj is a really terrible name
08:49:18  <db48x> it's a name for a thing that doesn't need a name
08:49:20  <DASPRiD> db48x, that's why everyone just calls it json
08:49:30  <DASPRiD> frddy vs json
08:49:40  <Felicitus> ciwyw :)
08:51:22  <DASPRiD> heh i made dihedral addicted i guess
08:54:34  <Felicitus> hmm, so let's get back to the original topic: if i have a squirrel class with a static function, and i need to cache data between the calls of that function, how would i do that? i dont want to use globals
08:54:40  <Felicitus> DASPRiD: yes its nice :)
08:56:05  <DASPRiD> yet nobody solved the last level ;)
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08:58:53  <Yexo> Felicitus: you'll have to use a global in some way or another
08:59:03  <DASPRiD> not actually
08:59:21  <DASPRiD> The registry design pattern helps you out at that point
08:59:28  <DASPRiD> at least until namespaces come into game
08:59:37  <Felicitus> hmm
09:00:05  <Rubidium> a variable of a static class is in effect a global too
09:00:38  <Felicitus> Rubidium: yes, but i see it as some kind of "private" to that class, more or less protected from the rest
09:01:00  <Rubidium> true
09:01:44  <Felicitus> and even php5 supports private static on attributes, which makes it exclusive to that class
09:01:48  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15520 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (15 files): -Cleanup [NoAI]: Fix some typos, unify the comment style and update some documentation since a few enums have been renamed.
09:03:55  <DASPRiD> correct, take a look at Zend_Registry:
09:06:42  <Felicitus> and i can't await php 5.3 - finally they introduce namespaces
09:08:15  <Felicitus> and i can start my new project. until then i need to wait until php 5.3 builds on my box or continue working on the felicitusAI :)
09:09:49  <DASPRiD> dihedral, are you trying to solve the sunshine level?
09:10:01  <DASPRiD> Felicitus, heh, probably learn something useful until then... like zend framework ;)
09:10:52  <Felicitus> DASPRiD: i know the zend framework
09:11:21  <Felicitus> but since i was using portions of contenido as base for my work, i could not use it
09:11:47  <DASPRiD> well, you can always use single components of zend framework, thanks to it's use-at-will structure
09:12:42  * DASPRiD listens to: Amon Amarth - Varyags of Miklagaard
09:12:48  <Felicitus> yes and no - many patterns of what zend provides are already implemented in contenido
09:13:26  <DASPRiD> yeah and so you can use the components of ZF which supply the missing patterns
09:16:18  <planetmaker> DASPRiD: what's the aim of this klotski-game?
09:16:28  <Felicitus> there's nothing that comes into my mind which could be replaced by zf easily, and the last projects i did were pretty much implemented without any modifications to the core
09:16:59  <Felicitus> and as i see, there's still no ORM provided by zend :(
09:17:04  <DASPRiD> Felicitus, don't know, how about for example Zend_Uri?
09:17:11  <DASPRiD> or ZendX_Console_Process_Unix ;)
09:17:15  <DASPRiD> planetmaker, guess :)
09:17:45  <planetmaker> some kind of final configuration...
09:18:14  <Felicitus> DASPRiD: actually no. the only thing where URIs are processed is actually on the client (js) side - the rest goes via web services, and the web service is integrated within contenido
09:18:31  <DASPRiD> planetmaker, move marked block to green area
09:18:55  <planetmaker> ah... the marked block... :)
09:18:58  <DASPRiD> ;)
09:20:10  <Felicitus> hmm...there's no platform where someone can start working with (like a PHP-based system) and then evolve to a better performance platform later (like java or c/c++) when the business grows?
09:20:51  <Felicitus> and the actual application logic is implemented in some kind of meta-language?
09:20:51  <DASPRiD> well, java-bridge?
09:21:21  <Felicitus> no that's not what i mean
09:22:07  <DASPRiD> ah i c what you mean
09:22:20  <DASPRiD> the interpreter beeing written in language a) and b)?
09:22:27  <Felicitus> yes
09:22:37  <Felicitus> plus the environment, like persistence and application layer
09:22:39  <DASPRiD> tho, why should you start with the slowest interpreter
09:22:59  <DASPRiD> there's not persistence in web ;)
09:23:03  <Felicitus> because the business is small and you can't afford an own server
09:24:01  <Felicitus> i have had the problem myself - i'm currently implementing the network monitoring system in PHP, because I a) want to run it on my web server, b) i probably want to license it to customers and c) i maybe want to give it out as open source
09:24:06  <DASPRiD> well i don't know such a platfrom
09:24:34  <Felicitus> most people only have PHP on their server, but customers want to be sure that the software also runs well, and they don't really want a PHP cluster :)
09:25:03  <Felicitus> the pattern which would describe my approach is "implement once - serve many" :)
09:27:18  <Felicitus> or some kind of meta-language, which can generate code automatically - just like the UML->(language XY) generators, but not for the class design, but for the actual implementation
09:28:21  <DASPRiD> then you could simply write a php2cpp converter ;)
09:28:46  <Felicitus> ;)
09:29:02  <Felicitus> and what if my customer already has a big java cluster running? :)
09:29:15  <DASPRiD> then you go on with your next projects: php2java
09:29:18  <DASPRiD> simple, eh? ;)
09:29:21  <Felicitus> :P
09:29:40  <Felicitus> or i embed squirrel everywhere :)
09:29:53  <DASPRiD> or you write everything in brainfuck
09:30:04  <DASPRiD> writing brainfuck interpreters is easy
09:30:07  <Felicitus> hehe
09:30:24  <dihedral> <- Roest: Uh Uh Uh.... i wanna play too :-D
09:30:38  <DASPRiD> dihedral, wb ;)
09:31:13  <DASPRiD> you didnt solve the last level :x
09:32:58  <dihedral> i was close, but i need to work
09:33:05  <dihedral> well 'close' being on a very good way :-P
09:33:10  <DASPRiD> hehe
09:33:13  <DASPRiD> you will get more levels later
09:33:18  <dihedral> had all the little blocks down by the big fat boy
09:33:22  <DASPRiD> is yet reserved ;)
09:33:24  <DASPRiD> nice
09:33:26  <dihedral> i will not try later ;-)
09:33:31  <DASPRiD> :D
09:33:43  <Felicitus> DASPRiD:
09:33:49  <Felicitus> that's what i described :D
09:33:51  <dihedral> i need to work (aka looking at openttd source or tcl stuff :-P)
09:33:52  <DASPRiD> you could try to cheat into the highscore
09:34:02  <DASPRiD> but thats not possible, the server validates all your moves ;)
09:34:18  <dihedral> sure i can cheat into the highscore
09:34:20  <dihedral> that is very easy
09:34:41  <dihedral> just need a http proxy :-P
09:34:51  <dihedral> and then resend the data with invalid time stamps
09:35:00  <dihedral> (manipulated rather)
09:35:07  <DASPRiD> dihedral, doesnt work ;)
09:35:17  <dihedral> and why would that not work?
09:35:20  <DASPRiD> you have to send a valid movement-list to the server
09:35:42  <DASPRiD> because it tests all moves and checks if the goal is met
09:36:49  <dihedral> DASPRiD, that is what i just described to you - a simple http replay with manipulated timestamps
09:37:17  <DASPRiD> how does that get you into the highscore? :x
09:37:30  <dihedral> sending valid moves, in very short time
09:37:34  <dihedral> ;-)
09:37:42  <DASPRiD> well for valid moves, you first have to solve the puzzle ;)
09:37:55  <dihedral> .... did you read what i said or did you just reply?
09:38:07  <DASPRiD> probably either i or you dont get it :)
09:38:20  <dihedral> you can capture sent packets and resend them!
09:38:37  <dihedral> so you solve the puzzle in as much time as you like, whilst caputuring the communication between you and the server
09:39:03  <dihedral> all you then need to do is manipulate the packets and resend them, while your session is still valid
09:39:24  <dihedral> so you have then solved the puzzle in less time, with valid moves.
09:39:39  <dihedral> and it would look very funny if i solve the puzzle with 3k moves and 2 seconds ;-)
09:39:39  <DASPRiD> i dont get the sense of the resend packets somehow
09:39:51  <DASPRiD> ah i c what you want
09:40:01  <DASPRiD> nope that doesnt work :)
09:40:19  <DASPRiD> the time counter runs on server side, connected with a game id, which you get at start of the game
09:40:39  <dihedral> so i start the game from the proxy, then replay my moves
09:40:52  <DASPRiD> that could actually work
09:41:23  <DASPRiD> but still you have the problem in solving the puzzle itself ;)
09:41:25  <dihedral> Roest is funny
09:41:39  <Roest> what why
09:41:41  <dihedral> while he is connected to irc he reads less of the conversations than when he is not :-D
09:42:04  * dihedral chuckles
09:42:27  <Roest> sure you talking about me?
09:43:48  <dihedral> ^^
09:45:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15521 /trunk/src/ (build_vehicle_gui.cpp engine.cpp engine_base.h): -Codechange: add helper function to get the display tractive effort of a vehicle.
10:05:57  <Felicitus> wow - seems that the SpiderMonkey js engine is supported in all major programming languages, it seems that a PHP pecl module is also prepared :)
10:13:43  <dihedral> now that will make your app widely used! relying on a pecl module!
10:14:56  <dihedral>[1].jpg
10:15:30  <Felicitus> yes, that's what i thought also now
10:15:43  <Felicitus> if it was in the core - yes
10:17:41  <petern> hmm, Rubidium, where does that patch lead? i have an already working "realistic" acceleration patch...
10:18:29  <Rubidium> giving AIs the possibility to compare on maxte
10:18:38  <petern> arrr
10:18:47  <petern> cool
10:19:07  <Rubidium> hmm, probably should've written engine instead of vehicle
10:21:09  <Rubidium> it's just to prevent duplication of some code from the build vehicle gui
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10:34:40  <dihedral> planetmaker, how about we start a 'user flaming' thread :-D
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10:39:37  <dihedral> is distant join station available to AI's?
10:41:12  <Rubidium> yup
10:43:55  <dihedral> nice
10:46:12  <petern> hmm?
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11:12:37  <dihedral> what is this silly JacobD88-thing anyway?
11:13:04  <Felicitus> ok that's nice - felicitusAI now picks the best available train available based on cost, reliability and max speed
11:13:19  <Felicitus> as soon as Yexo has implemented the power thing, it's nearly perfect :)
11:14:36  <dihedral> enjoying your progress it seems ;-)
11:15:10  * dihedral wait's for 'scotty beam me up' AI, which uses the advantage of station_spread + distant join stations to the full
11:15:51  <Felicitus> well, i actually already use portions of that to calculate the maximum station length and when it upgrades/extends one station type to another
11:18:34  <dihedral> <- can _anybody_ make heads or tails of this?
11:19:22  <Noldo> no
11:19:22  <Rubidium> dihedral: yes; you just need to invert the online-translator and ask a Hungarian
11:19:54  <dihedral> does somebody have a hungarian i could ask?
11:20:13  <Rubidium> no, don't own one (yet)
11:20:38  <dihedral> when you have one, could you let me know what that guy is trying to express?
11:20:43  <petern> Darkvater?
11:21:31  <dihedral> he's no hungarian is he? :-P
11:22:46  <dihedral>|de|The%20%22%20Downloadable%20contents%20be%20%22%20window%201%20such%20button%20%22%20designate%20the%20designation%20beside%20%22%20button%20what%20every%20either%20(for%20instance.%3A%20His%20every%20designation).
11:23:19  <dihedral> makes a wee bit more sense, but on a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being the least sense it makes it's still at -90
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11:25:54  <dihedral> <- well then i take it that's a friendly response :-P
11:26:53  <Rubidium> I think he wants a "select all" button
11:27:43  <dihedral> " designate the designation beside " <- you get that out of this?
11:27:45  <Forked> wow. I have a grand total of 22 posts.. I rock
11:27:59  <dihedral> or "button what every either"
11:28:30  <dihedral> "window 1 such button" <- that kinda sais nothing either
11:28:56  <dihedral> a window with only one button? a window that looks just like one button? he has a button in a window?
11:29:03  * dihedral is totally confuddled
11:29:13  <Forked> dihedral: I responded to that thread with a suggestion.
11:29:38  <Rubidium> I really think he wants 1 button to select everything in the download content window
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11:35:04  <dihedral> some advertising....:
11:35:09  <dihedral> thank you :-P
11:35:39  <dihedral> Rubidium, now please mangle a response that he will understand :-D
11:39:03  <Rubidium> no, non, nein, nee, never, n3v4h, nooit, ...
11:39:35  <dihedral> noite?
11:39:45  <dihedral> :-P
11:39:58  <dihedral> Rubidium, quite simple, reverse the steps you did to find out what he means
11:40:08  <dihedral> or pipe it through 'kenny' :-P
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11:40:32  <dihedral> mmm = a, mmp = b, mmf = c, mpm = d .......
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11:43:12  <DASPRiD> dihedral, o.0
11:43:24  <DASPRiD> mfm = e?
11:44:30  <DASPRiD> or mpp = e?
11:46:35  <FloSoft> I have one crash here: Depot, in front of it I have a pbs signal - soon as a train goes into the depot, it crashes in TrainMovedChangeSignals with an assertion in IsValidTile
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11:48:05  <dihedral> lovely
11:48:25  <FloSoft> okay it crashes before trainmovedchangesingals
11:48:34  <FloSoft> i'll try to find it exactly
11:52:17  <FloSoft> aaah - it was a sharedinfrastructure-patch-error ;)
11:52:43  <dihedral> you report bugs on patched games??
11:53:02  * dihedral applauds
11:53:17  <FloSoft> dihedral: yea i first used the wrong binary, sorry
11:53:30  <FloSoft> thought i used the non patched binary to debug
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13:23:37  <dihedral> Roest, i shall try to make you 'smile':
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13:53:31  <Roest> dihedral lol
13:53:55  <NukeBuster|laptop> :)
13:57:24  <dihedral> LapBuster|nuke :-P
14:01:00  <NukeBuster|laptop> :)
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14:13:16  <NukeBuster|laptop> dihedral, i notice you are really busy with that Alain guy.
14:29:00  <Sacro> hmm... what happened to Karen
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14:34:51  <petern> who?
14:35:49  <Rubidium> when?
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14:44:39  <Sacro>!
14:45:56  <Rubidium> looks kinda like hungarian to me
14:47:24  <petern> grr, the backlight on my small monitor is flickering :/
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14:47:32  <petern> seems to be dependent on screen changes though
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14:49:31  <dihedral> NukeBuster|laptop, Alain is quite annoying
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14:55:12  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15522 /extra/masterserver_updater/src/contentserver/ (contentserver.h handler.cpp main.cpp tcp.cpp): [MSU] -Change: uncomplexify the content server a bit, but use a more memory (and hope it doesn't get OOM-killed ;)).
14:55:33  <Sacro> Rubidium: that's not a word
14:55:52  <Forked> and I think you're missing the word "bit" (more memory) :-)
14:55:54  <Sacro> "uncomplicate" is what you mean
14:56:13  <Rubidium> Sacro: what's a word and what isn't?
14:57:11  <dihedral> a word of one syllable is a primitive :-P
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14:57:39  <Sacro> Rubidium: "uncomplexify"
14:58:00  <Rubidium> dihedral: Guy Steele?
14:58:36  <dihedral> Rubidium, yep
14:58:51  <dihedral> after all, you posted the link
14:58:55  <Rubidium> so uncomplexify is both a word and not a word, interesting
14:59:21  <dihedral> just needs defining :-P
15:00:34  <Rubidium> uncomplexify: the process of making something less complex.
15:00:45  <dihedral> complex then also needs defining
15:00:47  <Rubidium> so, now it's in Sacro's vocabulary
15:00:49  <dihedral> it's 2 sylibils
15:00:58  <dihedral> oh no Rubidium
15:01:07  <dihedral> Sacro is a wimp :-D
15:01:19  <Rubidium> I've chosen the primitives to be 'simple english words'
15:01:27  <petern> jessica alba is in sacro's "vocabulary"
15:01:44  <dihedral> primitives
15:04:07  <DASPRiD> dihedral,
15:04:12  <DASPRiD> inserted all levels
15:04:44  <Rubidium> oh, the primitives are even part of Charles K. Ogden's Basic English
15:14:52  <petern> uncomplexify?
15:16:48  *** Sedontane [] has joined #openttd
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15:16:53  <Sedontane> Hiya
15:17:02  <Rubidium> petern: you know I like to introduce new words, right?
15:17:16  <dsoxygen> hi there
15:17:23  <petern> introducify
15:17:43  <petern> while we're at it
15:17:44  <Sedontane> Can anyone instruct me on how to get my compiled version of OpenTTD to stop saying norev000
15:18:02  <dsoxygen> is there any possibility to manage a openttd ded sever by a other program with DDE?
15:18:30  <Rubidium> Sedontane: easiest is using a subversion checkout instead of downloading the sources from the website
15:18:47  <Sedontane> I did use svn
15:18:53  <Sedontane> TortoiseSVN
15:19:05  <petern> dsoxygen, no
15:19:11  <petern> (does DDE still exist, even?)
15:19:18  <Rubidium> what is DDE?
15:19:27  <dsoxygen> not realy ;)
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15:19:32  <Rubidium> Devil's Disaster Environment?
15:19:39  <dsoxygen> lol
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15:21:08  <Rubidium> to use DDE you need to write a DDE <-> OpenTTD console wrapper application
15:21:28  <Rubidium> Sedontane: what compiler?
15:21:44  <Sedontane> Vis Studio 2009 Professional
15:22:24  <planetmaker> dsoxygen: you might want to take a look at autopilot or ap+ and the openttdlib
15:22:34  <Rubidium> it should be able to detect tortoise, unless it's registry settings are screwed up
15:22:59  <Sedontane> only reason im compiling is there seems to be no way to get old nightlies now - and coop has a (recent) old nightly
15:23:19  <dsoxygen> ok thx for the hints
15:23:19  <dsoxygen> by
15:23:24  <Rubidium> doesn't have it anymore?
15:23:25  <petern>
15:23:26  <petern> yeah
15:23:29  <petern> none there :o
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15:24:08  <petern> do you need r1? hehe
15:24:09  <Sedontane> ah
15:24:16  <Sedontane> lol
15:24:30  <Rubidium> petern: more than ~2-3 months old are only the sources
15:24:36  <Sedontane> couldnt find it - there is no obvious link to there on the site
15:24:36  <petern> :D
15:24:40  <petern> which are a lie
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15:24:57  <petern> because there weren't proper nightlies in those dark ages
15:25:30  <Rubidium> true; we kinda reconstructed it
15:27:47  <Sedontane> got it
15:28:13  <Sedontane> cheers guys
15:29:11  <planetmaker> DASPRiD: ha, "success" was really a success :P
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15:30:26  <DASPRiD> hehe
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15:43:35  <petern> HUGE SUCCESS
15:55:41  <DASPRiD> orly?
15:58:45  <petern> what svn clients are there for windows other than tortoise?
15:58:56  <Sacro> svn
15:59:05  <Sacro> ankhsvn
15:59:12  <Sacro> well, that's VS plugin
15:59:21  <Roest> subversive, but that's an eclipse plugin
15:59:21  <DASPRiD> rapidsvn
15:59:31  <DASPRiD> (standalone gui)
15:59:41  <DASPRiD> and svn console client itself for sure
15:59:57  <petern> ankhsvn's shit :D
16:00:00  <petern> and not what i need
16:00:43  <Roest> i have yet to find a way to apply a patch and edit conflicts with ankh
16:02:37  <dihedral> petern, what you wanting to do?
16:03:18  <DASPRiD> petern, and what about my suggestions?
16:05:56  <petern> trying it
16:09:14  *** Sedontane [] has left #openttd []
16:09:39  <Belugas> VisualSVN
16:11:01  <glx> but it doesn't work with express versions
16:11:57  *** Yexo_ [] has joined #openttd
16:16:00  <Belugas> ho...
16:16:07  <Belugas> that's ... unfortunate
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16:22:12  <Roest> hmm interesting, who's that alain guy dihedral is speaking of
16:22:37  <dihedral> what me? where?
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16:26:58  <Roest>
16:33:53  <dihedral> Roest, yes? :-P
16:34:38  <petern> yeah well i'm not using MSVC
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16:35:15  <petern> i need it on a server where i don't want all tortoise's bloat in there
16:35:28  <glx> then just use svn CLI
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16:35:59  <petern> well rapidsvn already did the trick
16:39:47  <dihedral> all gui stuff is 'bloated' :-D
16:42:17  <DASPRiD> dihedral, but rapidsvn is nice and cross-platform :P
16:43:32  <glx> svn is too
16:48:20  <DASPRiD> glx, no argument against rapidsvn ;)
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16:50:37  <dihedral> DASPRiD, cli counts
16:51:40  <DASPRiD> anyway, i prefer subversive in zsfe :)
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16:53:44  <dihedral> svn gui clients is only for people who cannot read unified diff format and dont know how to edit conflicts in vim
16:53:57  <dihedral> :-P
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16:55:43  <Sacro> hehe
16:55:45  <Sacro> <3 vim
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16:58:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15523 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
16:58:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-02-19 16:58:17
16:58:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 3 fixed, 8 changed by Ludslad (11)
16:58:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 14 fixed by t2t2 (14)
16:58:51  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 1 changed by v3rb0 (1)
16:58:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: luxembourgish - 336 fixed by Gubius (336)
17:00:42  <Sacro> that's not a real language
17:01:22  *** frosch123 [] has joined #openttd
17:06:29  <NukeBuster|laptop> There should be a swedish shef language ;)
17:08:26  *** Darkvater [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
17:09:40  <Mortomes> Make it happen
17:10:49  *** Swallow [] has joined #openttd
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17:13:40  <Belugas> i solve conflicts in Notepad++, in Tortoise, in VisualSVN... am i a bad person??
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17:16:02  <glx> I use notepad++ too :)
17:16:12  <glx> svn starts it directly
17:20:28  <Eddi|zuHause> you use windows, you can only be evil :p
17:20:33  <Eddi|zuHause> or mad
17:20:37  <Eddi|zuHause> or both
17:21:09  <Belugas> I love Notepad++ :D  it's quick, it's simple, it has nice highlights...
17:21:33  <Belugas> i'm not ONLY using windows, Eddi|zuHause :)  My laptop is on Ubuntu
17:21:44  <Belugas> AND Xp
17:21:47  <Belugas> but...
17:22:07  <Belugas> it's recent ;)
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17:52:23  <Wolf01> hello
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17:54:15  <dihedral> 0118 999 881 999 119 725
17:54:41  <Eddi|zuHause> that's an awfully long phone number
17:55:12  <glx> lol
17:56:17  <dihedral> 3
17:56:38  <dihedral>
17:58:23  <glx> nice one
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17:59:48  <Eddi|zuHause> see... it actually WAS a phone number :p
18:02:03  <dihedral> i just want those number sung out, as a ringtone for my mobile....
18:02:09  <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i think i am psychic... when watching that sketch i though "they need to make a joke about '911', too"
18:02:39  <dihedral> it was your female intuition
18:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, even my maths teacher told that to me
18:05:30  <dihedral> HAHA
18:05:34  <dihedral> you bitch :-P
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18:41:50  <el_en>
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18:58:16  <energetic> any past efforts for a scrpting system to make ur own levels?
18:58:30  <energetic> (or level sequences)
18:59:07  *** Yexo_ is now known as Yexo
18:59:25  <Yexo> energetic: I don't know about any
18:59:38  <Belugas> i don't even know what you are talking about
19:00:07  <energetic> like the NOAI system, only for level scripting instead of creating AIs
19:00:31  <Belugas> what is level scrpting?
19:00:38  <Yexo> energetic: you're talking about creating scenarios goals right?
19:00:51  <planetmaker> g'evening
19:00:57  <Yexo> hello planetmaker
19:01:02  <energetic> level scripting -> create a system where you can make interactive scenarios
19:01:19  <energetic> eg goal is to make 10 trains, earn 2M/y
19:01:46  <energetic> hi
19:02:10  *** DaleStan [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:02:37  <energetic> Yexo: yes :)
19:02:53  <energetic> Belugas: U understand it now?
19:03:13  <Belugas> YOU
19:03:15  <Belugas> not U
19:03:24  <energetic> y not?
19:03:31  <Belugas> Yo MAN, watsup?
19:03:37  <Belugas> pffff
19:03:56  <Belugas> yes, i do understand now. no, nobody cared on working on this
19:03:57  <energetic> its just chatlanguage? often used words making them very short?
19:04:15  <Belugas> no, it's american slang and it's not welcome in here
19:04:25  <energetic> "wtf r u talkin bout" is nicely short :P
19:04:35  <planetmaker> energetic: you may understand it. None native speakers may not.
19:04:59  *** RS-SM [~RSCN@216-165-16-61.DYNAPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #openttd
19:05:11  <Belugas> do you find a kick nice?
19:05:23  * planetmaker hugs Belugas
19:05:27  <Mortomes> It's also a nice sore to the eye.
19:05:44  <Alberth> and very difficult to read
19:06:00  <energetic> do you find a kick nice? -> that was for me?
19:06:15  <energetic> well, I have no problem conforming to some standard whatsoever
19:06:29  <energetic> but I was under the impression that this _was_ the standard :P
19:06:44  <glx> not here :)
19:06:52  <planetmaker> luckily :)
19:07:54  <Alberth> energetic: the only other scripting effort I am aware of, is an attempt to implement NewGRF callbacks in a script. It didn't get very far (luckily imho)
19:08:37  <energetic> are there any plans or opinions about such an effort?
19:08:39  *** Dred_furst [] has joined #openttd
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19:09:25  <Jolteon> Howdy.
19:09:28  <Jolteon> I need some help.
19:09:34  <Jolteon> I can't build planes D:
19:09:44  <Jolteon> Just says "can't build aircraft"
19:09:44  <Jolteon> d:
19:09:49  <planetmaker> set the maximum allowed number of planes to > 0
19:10:04  <planetmaker> and make sure that the game year is such that planes are available
19:10:16  <planetmaker> 1850 obviously there won't be planes
19:10:17  <Alberth> energetic: not sure what the gain would be, everybody gets very rich in a few years, so what kind of goals are left then?
19:11:09  <energetic> thats exactly the reason why you want such a system, I think. e.g. create levels where you can set custom goals with custom metrics
19:11:24  <energetic> ie. make an island with coal mines impossible to start with
19:11:34  <energetic> and have a goal transporting x coal/month
19:12:30  <energetic> or like a newbie system where you can start with a 64x64 level explaining basics
19:12:57  <energetic> when he connected the two coal mines, the level becomes an 128x128 sized one with the network still on it.
19:13:34  <energetic> when he successfully meets goal2, level is again elnarged, goal harder (or based on current network)
19:14:04  <energetic> adaptive decisionmaking for ie disasters (player is going well -> more disasters, bad player-> less disasters
19:14:12  <planetmaker> btw, Jolteon , plane availability depends upon the plane newGRF(s) loaded - if any.
19:14:17  <Alberth> energetic: a script for demo-ing some things (eg laying down rails) would be nice. newbies get heavily confused with the basics.
19:14:43  <Mortomes> Wasn't there a basic demo for that in the original ttd?
19:14:54  <Alberth> yes, there was
19:15:02  <energetic> yeah. this way they can learn it all while having fun and a concise nice goal to motivate them
19:15:24  <energetic> yapf, yapp, junctions, etcetc
19:15:37  <Alberth> not sure whether you should dynamically set new goals, but I guess it is possible.
19:15:49  <energetic> well a lot is possible
19:15:59  <Ammler> iirc, Truebrain has a patch for
19:16:03  <energetic> but i would love to see some very challneging maps
19:16:20  <Ammler> quite old rev, but :-)
19:16:20  <energetic> maps who are hard for very experienced players
19:16:55  <energetic> eg have company value of 10M within ten year on a given map
19:18:28  <energetic> but also a lot of ingame gimmicks, such as different town authorities some very reluctant to change, some dont care
19:19:12  *** RS-SM [~RSCN@216-165-16-61.DYNAPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [Quit: RS-SM]
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19:21:45  <Alberth> personally, I don't care much for goals, so no idea whether such goals are useful
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19:22:37  <welshdragon> is there a server that can host a map for me and Eoin?
19:22:58  <Eoin> or can i increase the connection tick limit?
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19:41:21  <Sacro> Eoin: you can increase the tick limit
19:41:36  <Eoin> ive already figure out how
19:41:36  <Eoin> :)
19:44:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15524 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add [NoAI]: AIEngine::GetPower, AIEngine::GetWeight and AIEngine::GetMaxTractiveEffort.
19:45:32  *** edeca [] has joined #openttd
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19:45:51  <Sacro> I found a bug in 0.7.0-beta1 :D
19:45:55  * Sacro dances
19:46:02  * Sacro wants Bjarni to fix it
19:49:48  <Eoin> what is it xD
19:52:31  <petern> @seen bjarni
19:52:31  <DorpsGek> petern: bjarni was last seen in #openttd 19 hours, 19 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <Bjarni> night
19:53:05  <svip> @seen svip
19:53:05  <DorpsGek> svip: svip was last seen in #openttd 6 days, 22 hours, 9 minutes, and 38 seconds ago: <svip> :S
19:53:15  <svip> Man, I have been gone a long time.
19:53:27  <petern> @seen peter1138
19:53:27  <DorpsGek> petern: peter1138 was last seen in #openttd 20 weeks, 0 days, 9 hours, 5 minutes, and 19 seconds ago: <peter1138> Hmm, seems OpenTTD's config rewrites the files that stall...
19:55:13  <Bjarni> hello petern
19:55:35  <Sacro> @seen Karen
19:55:35  <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen Karen.
19:55:45  <Sacro> @seen patchbot
19:55:46  <DorpsGek> Sacro: I have not seen patchbot.
19:55:48  <Sacro> hmm
19:55:49  <Bjarni> @seen boobs
19:55:49  <DorpsGek> Bjarni: I have not seen boobs.
19:55:54  <Sacro> @seen Bjarni
19:55:54  <DorpsGek> Sacro: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 4 seconds ago: <Bjarni> @seen boobs
19:56:02  <Sacro> i do love boobs
19:56:03  <Bjarni> looks like that bot is blind
19:56:12  <Bjarni> it's on the internet after all and still....
19:57:05  <frosch123> Bjarni: wrong question
19:57:11  <frosch123> @seen someone
19:57:11  <DorpsGek> frosch123: someone was last seen in #openttd 1 year, 3 weeks, 5 days, 1 hour, 4 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: * Someone here is gay
20:00:22  <welshdragon> lol
20:02:32  <petern> # don't give up, cos you have friends
20:03:02  <welshdragon> can we ave speed limits?
20:03:24  <Roest> who'd want that?
20:03:34  <welshdragon> me :P
20:03:41  <planetmaker> speak slower, please, welshdragon - you're beyond the speed limit of talking ;)
20:04:03  <welshdragon> planetmaker: haha
20:05:29  <Eoin> welshdragon
20:05:30  <Eoin> save game
20:05:37  *** George34 [~George@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
20:05:39  <welshdragon> Eoin: in a sec
20:05:44  *** George [~George@] has joined #openttd
20:05:44  <welshdragon> i'm on t'loo
20:05:50  <Eoin> oo errr
20:07:06  <Jolteon> kthx.
20:08:12  <welshdragon> o_O
20:08:49  <Eoin> save already!
20:08:50  <Eoin> i got praccie
20:09:53  *** bayo_O [] has joined #openttd
20:10:16  <bayo_O> hello
20:11:14  <bayo_O> iv got problem to use OpenTTD with OpenGFX is anybody can help me?
20:11:56  <Alberth> bayo_O: don't ask to ask, just ask
20:12:36  <Wolf01> I wonder if I can use it to play OTTD
20:13:06  <Alberth> welshdragon: there is a speed limit setting for railroad cars in 'advanced settings'
20:13:30  <glx> bayo_O: is your problem the black boxes?
20:14:23  <bayo_O> i install 0.7.0-beta1, copy the OpenGFX_Alpha4.2.tar into /data
20:14:26  <welshdragon> Alberth: i wast thinking of setting by signals
20:14:47  <glx> why not use content downloader instead?
20:14:58  <bayo_O> it said  "cannot open the file"
20:15:13  <glx> you still need this file from TTD CD
20:15:26  <Yexo> doesn't an empty file work too?
20:15:27  <Alberth> welshdragon: we need to have traffic light signals
20:15:30  <glx> opengfx is only about graphics, not sound
20:15:52  <bayo_O> hooo ok :D
20:15:59  <glx> Yexo: yes empty works, but then we'll get complains about no sound ;)
20:16:21  <welshdragon> Alberth: yes, those would be good too
20:17:13  <bayo_O> well it work with a dummy file... thanks a lot for your help
20:18:58  <Alberth> welshdragon: we don't have speeding signals
20:20:37  <welshdragon> Alberth: i thought it might be easier than having a separate speed limit sign
20:20:44  <petern> # big time
20:20:46  <welshdragon> although they could be quite easy to draw
20:20:55  <petern> # i'm on my way, i'm making it (big time)
20:21:31  <el_en> what are the black boxes anyway? they make opengfx look like a japanese porn movie.
20:21:47  <petern> they are censorship boxes
20:22:02  <Alberth> welshdragon: we should have ones with a camera that flash when a train goes too fast, so we can bill the player
20:22:38  <welshdragon> Alberth: that's too far
20:22:47  <Alberth> el_en: also known as black holes that the graphic artists didn't fill in yet
20:22:47  <welshdragon> maybe for RV's
20:23:49  <Alberth> welshdragon: we could use Roujin's city traffic light
20:25:21  <welshdragon> Alberth: hmm
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20:28:19  <glx> el_en: they are just TODO sprites
20:29:06  <glx> better have black boxes than big red questionmarks :)
20:33:23  <Belugas> or big crashes...
20:33:37  <petern> the bulge
20:33:38  <petern> in my
20:33:46  <petern> big big big big big big big big crahes
20:33:51  <Belugas> :)
20:33:54  <petern> CRASHES
20:34:09  <Belugas> ain't PN, It;s  PG!
20:34:17  <petern> yeah
20:34:23  <petern> he has a cool first name :D
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20:40:48  <el_en> oh no, Bjarni crashed.
20:41:27  <Belugas> i know quite a few Peter in the music industry....
20:42:03  <frosch123> does Moby count as a belugas?
20:42:39  <Rubidium> year, with a bit of royal plural it does ;)
20:42:42  <Belugas> not at all you young man!
20:43:15  <Belugas> in french, it's a cachalot
20:43:17  <Belugas> albinos
20:43:22  <Belugas> not a beluga
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20:43:59  <Belugas> ah... yes... a sperm whale
20:44:03  <el_en> Airbus Beluga is a cool plane.
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21:00:48  <planetmaker> he, yeah.
21:00:59  <planetmaker> Quite impressive, if you've been standing in one.
21:01:36  <el_en> I've seen one irl, twice.
21:01:59  <el_en> Over here, in Turku, Finland.
21:02:27  <svip> Why does everyone live in Turku?!
21:03:58  <el_en> Not everyone on this channel.
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21:16:16  <KingJ> My network card (bge0) is listed in Assign Interfaces, but if I do a ifconfig it only shows fwip0 and lo0
21:16:58  <KingJ> Of course i'm talking in completely the wrong channel, sorry
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21:26:21  <Belugas> i've seen quite a few belugas, this summer.  As well as some megapteres.  But never sperm whales.  they do not come deep enough
21:26:23  <Belugas> too bad
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21:30:52  <Wolf01> about that topic with the strange language: there are other translation suggestions?
21:31:39  <Wolf01> I think that "dog I icecream have want Obama, button example, what" could be more understandable
21:32:20  <Rubidium> translate it back into hungarian and then to your language; might give a better translation
21:32:42  <Sacro> my god...
21:32:53  <Sacro> limitation disturbs me very sprites :(
21:33:58  <Wolf01> I once tried to translate a text 5 or 6 times from italian to english and back to italian... the meaning of the resulting sentence had nothing to do with the starting sentence
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21:37:46  <NightKhaos> Hey everybody
21:39:45  <Wolf01> google translator speaks like Yoda
21:39:52  <Wolf01> hey NightKhaos
21:41:32  <Rubidium> Wolf01: do it correctly if you do it; like Yoda Google translator speaks
21:41:45  <Wolf01> ahaha
21:42:48  <Wolf01> AH! got it! Rubidium you are a genius
21:43:36  <Rubidium> yes, a genius I am
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21:44:09  <Wolf01> "The content should be "similar to a window, press 1" to designate designate "button, or by all (for example: He is the description for each)."
21:44:35  <Wolf01> english->hungarian->italian->english eheh :D
21:45:14  <Wolf01> it still doesn't mean anything, but at least it's readable :P
21:54:58  <dihedral> ;-)
21:56:55  <Eddi|zuHause> if you want that they build it for you, press 1
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22:12:44  <NightKhaos> I wish there was a copy and paste function... or have I missed it?
22:12:56  <Rubidium> yes
22:13:28  <NightKhaos> erm which one?
22:13:36  <Wolf01> A or B, yes
22:13:41  <dihedral>
22:13:42  <dihedral> :-)
22:13:47  <dihedral> hihi
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22:14:29  <Rubidium> the former isn't a question
22:15:02  <NightKhaos> ... okay, is there a missing copy or paste function?
22:15:29  <Eddi|zuHause> if there was, it wouldn't be missing
22:18:18  <smallfly> dihedral, SirkoZ seemed to have some good arguments. why do you prefer excluding the copy&paste function?
22:18:19  <NightKhaos> ahh it's in miniN...
22:19:16  <Yexo> NightKhaos: MiniIN is ancient
22:20:42  <NightKhaos> "apparently" it's in MiniN.
22:20:56  <Wolf01> 'notte
22:21:39  <Rubidium> it's kinda in the forum too
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22:22:07  <Wolf01> ok, you understood... I greet the italian channels in english and the english channels in italian... I'm really tired
22:22:17  <Wolf01> 'night
22:22:23  <Rubidium> night
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22:50:07  <dihedral> <- LOL
22:50:21  <dihedral> just darn right great!
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22:54:36  <Elukka> what?
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23:10:35  <el_en> did they (the germans) dub the korean and/or french in Lost?
23:10:44  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15525 /trunk/src/saveload/ai_sl.cpp: -Fix: Don't try to find the AIs the server runs when joining a mp server.
23:13:09  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15526 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_order.cpp ai_order.hpp ai_order.hpp.sq): -Add [NoAI]: Support for conditional orders.
23:16:14  <el_en> haben die deutschen die koreanisch oder französisch im Lost gedubben?
23:22:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15527 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix (r15526): A ')' too much.
23:22:58  <Eddi|zuHause> el_en: no
23:23:08  <Eddi|zuHause> they subtitled it
23:24:01  <Eddi|zuHause> also, "dubben" is a weak verb, so it is "gedubbt" ;)
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23:25:06  <Eddi|zuHause> (there are more oddities in that sentence)
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23:25:43  <el_en> ah, they're not completely out of their minds then, despite Heroes.
23:26:30  <glx> here they subtitled japanese in Heroes
23:26:53  <glx> same goes for korean in Lost
23:27:05  <Eddi|zuHause> let's not think about heroes...
23:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause> we bury that far far away in our minds
23:27:22  <el_en> glx: what about the french in lost? (season 5 episode 4, 5)
23:27:38  <glx> hmm I will see this summer :)
23:28:08  <Eddi|zuHause> there were french parts before...
23:28:31  <Eddi|zuHause> like the broadcast message
23:28:44  <el_en> oh yes
23:29:11  <Eddi|zuHause> and when Rousseau first appeared
23:29:15  <glx> oh the message was in german IIRC :)
23:29:55  <el_en> what's "the french chick" in french? :)
23:30:44  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: if the message was german, and the message was from Rousseau, what was Rousseau speaking then?
23:31:21  <el_en> "the french chick" is how hugo called rousseau.
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23:33:09  <glx> she's german
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23:33:24  <el_en> is she even Rousseau?
23:33:30  <glx> yes
23:33:33  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i presume that's close enough ;)
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23:37:12  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
23:37:19  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone else getting timeouts on the forum?
23:37:57  <Nite_Owl> I just left it - no problems here
23:38:10  <dihedral> can someone create a forum for Alain ;-)
23:38:57  <dihedral> or do you think a thread is enough :-P
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23:42:18  <Rubidium> because constantly complaining about him is equally annoying
23:42:24  <Eddi|zuHause> well... someone decided to encourage him... that's what's the outcome of this is
23:42:34  <dihedral> sorry ;-)
23:42:49  <Nite_Owl> Let him play out his patch pack fantasy and like all of the others it will die a slow, agonizing death due to upkeep problems
23:43:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the miniin did not die slowly
23:43:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it was a definite and controlled end
23:44:55  <Rubidium> well...
23:44:58  <Nite_Owl> that is true - I revise the above to read "like a majority of the others"
23:45:04  <dihedral> you did have a few more poeple working on it
23:45:16  <dihedral> and they did have a bit more understanding of what they were doing
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23:45:34  <Rubidium> MiniIN was dead quite long before the real end
23:45:44  <planetmaker> [00:42]	<Eddi|zuHause>	well... someone decided to encourage him... that's what's the outcome of this is <--- he, sorry
23:45:49  <Rubidium> it was just 'backporting' 0.6 bugfixes
23:46:45  <dihedral> i've followed SmatZ' advice ;-)
23:46:51  <glx> and the "author" of miniin often ask us to do his job ;)
23:47:02  <dihedral> really?
23:47:03  <dihedral> ouch
23:47:26  <glx> he was usually unable to do a sync correctly
23:47:31  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i remember back when i ported the bridge patch, it was not accepted because "the end" was already decided
23:48:09  <glx> even worse when we introduced the new window system
23:48:42  <Rubidium> new window system during miniin?
23:49:13  <glx> there was big feature during miniin but maybe it was not this one
23:49:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i though "new window system" was a C++ thing
23:49:30  <Rubidium> oh, maybe the widget accessor functions
23:49:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole "made a class of the XYZ window" stuff
23:49:55  <glx> and c++ move definitely killed it
23:50:18  <glx> ha right it was widget accessors
23:51:08  <glx> btw miniin was just unmaintainable
23:51:20  <dihedral> too fat
23:51:38  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the "mini" part was a misnomer, really ;)
23:51:38  <glx> worse patch in it was infrastructure sharing
23:51:52  <glx> conflicts everywhere when syncing
23:51:58  <dihedral> hehe
23:52:28  <planetmaker> he...
23:52:42  <planetmaker> that feature is indeed a bitch when it comes to syncing
23:53:09  <Eddi|zuHause> you shoul commit it to trunk already ;)
23:53:21  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: in the current form?!
23:53:24  <Eddi|zuHause> ;)
23:53:29  <glx> no way :)
23:53:38  <dihedral> that'd be pretty bold.... and ... well... stupid :-P
23:54:10  <el_en> infrastructure sharing should be in trunk to avoid unnecessary patching and conflicts.
23:54:30  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, perhaps it's less work to commit truck to the IS patch :-D
23:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> buut!!! it is so community wanted patch!!!
23:54:37  <planetmaker> el_en: did you read the patch's source code?!
23:54:54  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, hehe
23:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and it is "well tested" :p
23:55:03  <glx> even in MP ;)
23:55:05  <el_en> planetmaker: nope, and i don't mean that particular patch would be the one, but i mean infrastructure sharing as a concept.
23:55:10  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: it IS well tested.
23:55:14  <dihedral> did SirkoZ write it?
23:55:17  <dihedral> :-P
23:55:22  <planetmaker> But... test results are not always what you hope for :P
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23:58:31  <planetmaker> el_en: it's an intriguing feature, for sure :)
23:58:45  <planetmaker> as is cargodest :P

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