Log for #openttd on 4th March 2009:
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00:00:20  <Eddi|zuHause> chris sawyer did not write all of openttd
00:00:26  <Brokkoli> thats true
00:00:55  <Brokkoli> but i think 10 person years would do it..
00:01:00  <Brokkoli> still a lot of time ;)
00:01:17  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you think that 10 person years are...
00:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> PS: that does not include designing the graphics
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00:03:41  <Brokkoli> 10 person years = 10 persons, 1 year, about 200 days * 8 hours
00:04:22  <Brokkoli> yes graphics are another big thing
00:06:24  <SmatZ> 10 person years = 3652 programmers, 1 day ... simple as that
00:06:39  <Brokkoli> lol exactly
00:06:58  <Brokkoli> or 5258880 programmers, 1 minute
00:07:08  <SmatZ> 8-)
00:07:09  <Aali> so all we have to do is find 3652 people, great
00:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> so, 10 persons, makes 80 person-hours per day, makes 16000 person-hours during this 1 year, so each developer needs to write on average 10 loc per hour. if you then factor in that not all persons involved in the project would actually contribute code, and there is management overhead and stuff, i don't think you can assume 10 loc per hour
00:07:51  <Eddi|zuHause> plus, you need a factor of 2 for unforseen problems
00:08:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather go with the ohloh estimate than yours
00:08:34  <Brokkoli> depends on the programmers skills ;)
00:08:59  <Eddi|zuHause> that makes the programmers more expensive
00:09:11  <Brokkoli> thats true
00:09:12  <SmatZ> live long and prosper, COCOMO
00:09:49  <Bjarni> SmatZ: V
00:09:53  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i learned that at some point, throwing more people at a project will not make it finish faster anymore ;)
00:10:06  <Brokkoli> so no 5258880 programmers?
00:10:12  <SmatZ> hehe :)
00:11:11  <SmatZ> if I were paid by what cocomo says, I would be a millionare already
00:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: not all costs for a developer are actually his wage
00:12:12  <Eddi|zuHause> there are equipment costs and stuff
00:12:20  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause:
00:12:33  <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: true, I need a new BMW every year ;)
00:12:45  <RS-SM> You sound like my uncle
00:12:45  <Brokkoli> ok we need 5 million computers now
00:12:52  <RS-SM> Brokkoli: make a virus
00:12:53  <SmatZ> :-p
00:12:59  <Brokkoli> great idea
00:13:00  <RS-SM> then use botnets?
00:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you need an office, a desk, a decent computer with two monitors
00:13:07  <Brokkoli> may i include it in openttd?
00:13:13  <RS-SM> make it so
00:13:15  <Rubidium> SmatZ: I wouldn't need a BMW every year
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00:13:26  <Rubidium> only a driver with his 'tools' ;)
00:13:29  <RS-SM> my dream for open TTD though
00:13:33  <SmatZ> hehehe :)
00:13:35  <RS-SM> underground stations
00:13:40  <Suicide_King> hey
00:13:41  <Brokkoli> two monitors?
00:13:46  <RS-SM> could it be done?
00:13:52  <SmatZ> RS-SM: sure
00:14:20  <Suicide_King> is there any way to see what new servers are starting up?
00:14:21  <Eddi|zuHause> Brokkoli: at the company i am, all developers (who asked for it) have got a second monitor approved
00:14:25  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15605 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h misc_gui.cpp network/network_gui.cpp): -Codechange: constify a function
00:14:43  <Eddi|zuHause> more space -> easier development
00:14:45  <RS-SM> dual monitors rock for editing
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00:14:57  <RS-SM> it makes it easer to actually see what you are working with
00:15:01  <Brokkoli> yes
00:15:11  <KingJ> I have dual monitors, 24" wasn't enough :P Added a second 19"
00:15:15  <SmatZ> it's true there are big and good enough for development monitors for <200E nowadays
00:15:26  <RS-SM> What programmes do you code
00:15:39  <Eddi|zuHause> does that matter?
00:15:50  <Sacro> RS-SM: programs
00:15:50  <RS-SM> no, no
00:16:11  <RS-SM> I will use the english of the british isles, it reads better
00:16:26  <Sacro> where are you from?
00:16:37  <RS-SM> I am stuck in USA land
00:16:49  * KingJ waves a british flag
00:16:57  <Sacro> well you are using the wrong spelling
00:17:02  <RS-SM> Oh?
00:17:04  <Sacro> programmes are on TCV
00:17:05  <Sacro> *TV
00:17:12  <Sacro> programs are on a computer
00:17:16  <Bjarni> *TGV
00:17:29  <Sacro> hush Bjarni
00:17:30  <RS-SM> ah open TTD
00:18:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15606 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fileio_func.h): -Codechange: make it possible to not recursively search with the file scanner (i.e. only search a single directory).
00:19:05  <Bjarni> <RS-SM> I am stuck in USA land <-- I'm so sorry but I can't do anything to fix that issue. You will have to work on that yourself
00:19:07  <Bjarni> :P
00:19:53  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15607 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Codechange: support searching files without filtering on extension.
00:20:14  <Bjarni> just wondering. Why aren't you guys sleeping right now?
00:20:33  <Bjarni> I know I should be, but I slept during the afternoon so...
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00:21:37  <KingJ> It's only 00:20, psh
00:22:52  <Brokkoli> 1:20 here
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01:10:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15608 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h): -Codechange: use the file scanner to find the files for the saveload window.
01:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> next step: scenarios ;)
01:14:30  <Brokkoli> *g*
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04:05:43  <Suicide_King> hey, anyone starting a game?
04:08:43  <Suicide_King> let me qualify that - is there a better way to find games that are starting up, other than looking through the servers the game can find and hoping that there is one with a current date close to the start date?
04:09:03  <Suicide_King> it's more fun to join a game that's starting, rather than one where there's already a winner
04:12:34  <Suicide_King> so... is this the right channel to ask these questions or is there somewhere it would be better that I went?
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07:43:46  <Yexo> good morning
07:47:55  <petern> god
07:48:01  <petern> how did yapf get in? :p
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07:49:04  <Alystair> ow.
07:50:14  <Noldo> petern: it's a mess?
07:52:15  <Alystair> how do donations work for OTD?
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08:02:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r15609 /trunk/src/yapf/ (13 files): -Fix: Code style...
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08:06:03  <petern> Comment style is a different matter, though...
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08:25:47  <dihedral> trallalla
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08:35:20  <Timitry> Heyho!
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08:36:31  * dihedral hides
08:37:31  <Timitry> Just a question... In this thread: it has been proposed that OpenTTD gets a new defautl background. Now i'm wondering... Is there any chance that could happen, if the new background would just be amazing (and without newGrfs, too)?
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08:50:04  <dihedral> that would be something either answered in the other thread where someone tried to make a competition, or answered by the dev's
08:50:30  <dihedral> however, you can replace that intro game yourself in your own client ;-)
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09:03:29  <Timitry> Ups, disconnect... Anyone wrote anything on that Intro-Screen topic here? :)
09:03:32  <petern> nope
09:03:46  <petern> only that it's been proposed before and there wasn't a new one
09:03:47  <Timitry> dihedral: Yes, i know that, and i was hoping for an answer of the devs :)
09:03:52  <petern> so i wouldn't worry about it
09:04:46  <Timitry> So there won't be a new one? :(
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09:11:21  <dihedral> what is wrong with the current one?
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09:13:26  <Timitry> 1. It's quite empty at higher resolutions, 2. we had it a long time now, and it kinda gets boring, 3. it could show more great features :)
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09:15:55  <dihedral> 4. how long do you actually spend looking at the intro game?
09:16:21  <dihedral> it's a intro background to the game, not a movie
09:17:51  <Timitry> Still it could be made more interesting
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09:18:35  <Timitry> And consider new players, the first thing they see of OpenTTD is the background, which could possibly show them a lot of the possibilities they have with that great game
09:19:41  <Progman> Timitry: iirc the mainmenu background game is used for old savegame checks
09:20:35  <Yexo> Progman: even if that was true, it wouldn't matter
09:20:45  <Progman> to automatically get a check if old savegames can still be loaded
09:20:52  <Yexo> having another default intro game doesn't mean the current intro game is thrown away
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09:29:50  <dihedral> Timitry: what other games have you played in the past 2 years?
09:30:08  <Timitry> Well, couldn't that also still be checked by just loading that savegame? Or one just replaces the opntitle.dat with the old one... Question is, how often are changes being made which can possibly break savegame compatibility, and how often do you need to check if the old one does still work?
09:30:18  <Timitry> Quite a few... Why?
09:30:35  <dihedral> tell me about their background of the main menu
09:30:42  <dihedral> or at least think about it ;-)
09:31:24  <dihedral> the intro screen is not there to help noobs
09:31:35  <dihedral> that's is what a wiki is there for
09:32:46  <dihedral> + the intro game, if it were that interesting that you could see and watch a bunch of stuff on max res, the cpu usage is also something to consider!
09:33:22  <dihedral> hey, openttd can run on a low-cpu machine, only issue, the intro game needs 4 times as much!
09:33:43  <dihedral> \o/
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09:37:53  <Timitry> dihedral: "tell me about their background of the main menu" ---> CSS: Just a simple picture, showing two soldiers with weapons + armor.  GTA4: Showing latest news and a featured video...
09:38:45  <Timitry> And well, the memory usage is a valid argument, i guess, but the new intro screen does not neccessarily have to be much more cpu-consuming than the old one
09:40:37  <Ammler> Timitry: maybe the easiest would be to have a cfg setting, where you could change the intro save.
09:41:25  <planetmaker> may the settings jungle live long and prosper :P
09:42:23  <dihedral> yay
09:42:26  <dihedral> hey ho pm :-)
09:43:26  <planetmaker> good day dihedral good day all :)
09:47:04  <dihedral> Timitry: make an intro game
09:47:21  <dihedral> just dont be disappointed if the devs dont include it
09:51:17  <Ammler> I liked Roujin's patch, where the menu jumps from sign to sign, nice to watch MZ games with.
09:52:12  <Ammler> dunno, if that patch is still up2date.
09:53:43  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15610 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change: allow loading of heightmaps and savegames (any form) that are in .tar files
09:56:49  <Ammler> something for the cpp, planetmaker ;-)
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09:57:22  <planetmaker> o_O
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09:57:39  * planetmaker hugs Rubidium
09:58:32  <planetmaker> Ammler: well... I've no personal use for setting for different title screens
09:59:12  <dihedral> ./openttd -n <host>[:<port>][#<company>]
09:59:19  <dihedral> i dont even see the intro game :-P
10:00:48  <Ammler> well, me neither
10:01:01  <Ammler> just the jumper from sign to sign was neat.
10:01:32  <planetmaker> it's an interesting idea, yeah
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10:02:14  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15611 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Change: when sorting files on modification date and the modification date is equal sort on the title so reversing the sorting direction actually reverses the order the listed files
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10:55:24  <dihedral> hihi - for the title screen - 10 ships and yapf enabled :-D
11:01:51  <dihedral> could there be a place on bananas for 32bpp graphics?
11:02:44  <Rubidium> maybe in the (far) future
11:02:58  <Eddi|zuHause> i really think, 32bpp graphics should (from a user point of view) treated like base graphics
11:03:09  <Eddi|zuHause> +be
11:05:57  <petern> what, all of them?
11:06:40  <Rubidium> yeah, and then crash OpenTTD because they haven't implemented the question mark yet
11:06:42  <petern> i think you mean they should be able to be used as base graphics in an obg, rather than treating them as base graphics
11:07:30  <petern> invalid argument
11:07:37  <petern> the same applies to grf base graphics
11:08:27  <Rubidium> trueish, but that set has sprites for everything (some black though), but I haven't seen one 'set' of 32 bpp graphics
11:08:36  <petern> "that" ?
11:08:56  <Rubidium> the only replacement check
11:09:09  <Rubidium> s/check/set/ ;)
11:09:10  <petern> i would say that a question mark sprite would get implemented pretty quickly if it was supported
11:09:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i really mean the user interface (bananas, game setting, .obg file), not the internal handling
11:09:31  <petern> Eddi|zuHause: wrong
11:09:42  <petern> you can have 32bpp graphics to replace newgrf files too...
11:09:48  <petern> that wouldn't fit in with base graphics
11:09:59  <petern> s/files/graphics/
11:10:53  <Rubidium> even for base graphics replacement a *real* 8bpp graphics replacement set is needed
11:11:19  <Rubidium> or you must find some way to make 32bpp newgrfs
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11:26:32  * dihedral would not mind having all the tar's rather than skimming through all 200 pages of that thread....
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11:27:48  <Rubidium> well, quite a large amount of them won't work in stock OpenTTD
11:28:07  <Rubidium> then a similarly large amount won't work in that patched version
11:28:23  <dihedral> great
11:28:29  <dihedral> wha't stops them from working?
11:28:38  <Rubidium> and another large bunch won't work in either and need egladil's version
11:28:49  <Rubidium> dihedral: sprites being 4 times too big/small
11:29:01  <dihedral> ouch
11:29:08  <Noldo> are they for the zoomlevelpatch
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11:36:02  <planetmaker> he, yeah. Seems all of them. Or at least most.
11:36:07  <planetmaker> Dunno actually why...
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11:37:15  <petern> artists using 32bpp seem to believe they must use a renderer and must create giant graphics
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11:41:07  <MrFrans> right, to big is not so much a issue, they can be easily resized. I suppose that is why they do the big render.
11:42:58  <MrFrans> I just wish they would put some dirt on the vehicles. They all look like they just rolled out of the factory. Also very plasticy. It doesn't have to be like that.
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11:48:01  <dihedral> ^^
11:48:10  <fjb> Hello
11:52:14  <racetrack> hello
11:52:21  <racetrack> I'm new here
11:52:31  <racetrack> but finally wanted to share something I've been working on for the past few days
11:52:34  <racetrack>
11:53:00  <racetrack> still a way off from finished, but at least its demo-quality now
11:54:32  <Timitry> boom
11:54:36  <Timitry> hehe
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11:54:58  <racetrack> hehe yeah
11:55:00  <dihedral> racetrack: what is your goal?
11:55:04  <Timitry> Wow, looks good, and i certainly like it :)
11:55:05  <racetrack> made me chuckle
11:55:13  <planetmaker> interesting
11:55:28  <planetmaker> can the trains leave on the other side?
11:55:37  <Timitry> Was about to post that question :D
11:55:45  <Timitry> Not yet, it seems
11:56:00  <racetrack> dihedral: having a depot on a siding or something, drive in the bottom, get a service, leave from the top and on your way
11:56:06  <racetrack> planetmaker, Timitry: not yet
11:56:10  <racetrack> thats next
11:56:25  <racetrack> turning is hardcoded into the depot code
11:56:28  <racetrack> (quite reasonably)
11:56:35  <Timitry> That'd be awesome...
11:56:36  <racetrack> needs a little pathfinding on exit instead
11:56:39  <dihedral> and following yapf?
11:56:45  <Timitry> And then longer depots
11:56:45  <racetrack> yeah
11:56:46  <Timitry> :)
11:56:50  <racetrack> it'll just call "the pathfinder"
11:56:52  <racetrack> whoever he is today
11:57:00  <dihedral> why do you need longer depots?
11:57:09  <racetrack> eyecandy aiui
11:57:10  <Timitry> Else it looks ugly :)
11:57:11  <racetrack> I don't need them
11:57:13  <dihedral> depends on the settings
11:57:19  <racetrack> but thats for someone else to do
11:57:26  <dihedral> Timitry: a bunch of stuff 'looks ugly'
11:57:36  <racetrack> with a slightly larger sprite and a run of dtdepots you could fake it
11:57:49  <dihedral> great!!!!
11:57:51  <racetrack> but I don't much care about it
11:58:07  <Timitry> If you have a 20-tile train vanishing in a 1-tile depot and then come out on the other side of it ;-) I know that's the case now, too ;)
11:58:23  <Eddi|zuHause> what exactly is that video supposed to show?
11:58:37  <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause: it can enter a depot from either side
11:58:39  <racetrack> Eddi|zuHause: that you can enter a single depot from either side
11:58:42  <racetrack> thats all I have so far
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11:59:10  <dihedral> well.... at least you got thus far without bombarding the forums ^^
11:59:24  <racetrack> yeah
11:59:29  <planetmaker> teeh
11:59:31  <racetrack> I've been around many forums in my time
11:59:36  <racetrack> they're all the same
11:59:39  <racetrack> so my approach stays the same
11:59:40  <planetmaker> ?
11:59:46  <racetrack> actually do something before you say you're going to do something :P
11:59:58  <planetmaker> which is quite a reasonable approach :)
12:00:02  <racetrack> I'll post about it once I have a finished patch that people can actually use
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12:00:02  <racetrack> haha
12:00:03  <dihedral> yes
12:00:10  <dihedral> people should follow that approach more often
12:00:35  <dihedral> hmmm.... i'm gonna make a patch pack... how do i compile? i cannot find the option in the tortoise menu
12:01:08  <Rubidium> dihedral: don't be stupid... OSX doesn't have tortoise
12:01:37  <planetmaker> he managed somehow, though. Though I have the feeling the patches are non-conflicting ones :)
12:01:38  <dihedral> ^^
12:02:19  <dihedral> and updated to the rev he's using
12:02:23  <Timitry> About that eyecandy: If you got that far that a train can enter one side and leave on the other, *someone* (like always not myself :D) could make a grf which has a larger depot (already exists) and the depot as station - that way you could place a depot somewhere, and fake-depots aka stations before and after it, and you would get a long depot, which consists of 1 depot tile and a bunch of station tiles :)
12:03:00  <racetrack> Timitry: sounds painful. go for it :)
12:03:14  <dihedral> just so you can be lazy and not have to service your trains?
12:03:23  <Timitry> Would probably not even be too hard... :)
12:03:29  <Timitry> No, so it would look good
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12:05:16  <dihedral> if you want it to look good, get some 32bpp stuff done
12:05:27  <dihedral> or make that comic stuff for ottd
12:05:38  <planetmaker> ^^
12:05:56  <Timitry> Those two threads are exactly what i meant:
12:06:04  <Timitry>
12:06:05  <planetmaker> I also see someone got another task.
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12:06:08  * planetmaker pities him
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12:06:41  <racetrack> Timitry: yeah I saw those when I went searching before I started
12:07:45  <racetrack> as long as depots defy the laws of physics I'll just keep using single tiles .. don't much care about pretty
12:07:58  <racetrack> if anyone ever makes functional depots/switching yards/turntables/etc, then maybe :P
12:08:19  <dihedral> which laws of physics are you referring to?
12:08:35  <Timitry> Those trains just go underground in the depots :D
12:08:45  <Timitry> make a curve and come out again :D
12:08:49  <Rubidium> tardis!
12:09:00  <dihedral> tunnels dont do much different
12:09:05  <racetrack> the ones that don't typically allow twenty billion tonnes of scrap metal to exist at a single point in space
12:09:11  <racetrack> call me a purist if you like ;)
12:10:16  <Timitry> afk, grabbing some food
12:10:21  <Timitry> Döööööner
12:10:55  <dihedral> nobody!
12:12:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "the first airport should have the full town as catchment area", "i want intercontinental airports in 1950"...
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12:13:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea how to reply to that
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12:22:14  <dihedral> @seen celestar
12:22:14  <DorpsGek> dihedral: celestar was last seen in #openttd 1 week, 4 days, 22 hours, 23 minutes, and 48 seconds ago: <Celestar> even debug outputs are stderr aren'T they?
12:29:58  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: sometimes silence is the best answer :P
12:34:49  <dihedral> planetmaker: or "not in the near future"
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12:39:59  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: or just point out distant join stations.
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12:47:48  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: actually, I sort of agree;
12:47:52  <[wito]> airport progression is a bit slow
12:48:21  <Eddi|zuHause> that's part of the point of aircraft...
12:48:30  <[wito]> I'd go so far as to say that it might be off by as much as 20 years
12:48:45  <[wito]> wait
12:48:56  <[wito]> the point of aircraft is being gibbed until about 1990? :P
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13:00:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the point of aircraft is that there is a limit to the unlimited money printing machine
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13:02:09  <[wito]> well
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13:02:39  <[wito]> Bigger 'small' airports eariler would still be sensible, I feel
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13:35:35  <dihedral> \o/
13:39:49  <planetmaker> [wito]: then we need newgrf (air)ports
13:40:00  <dihedral> <- ....
13:40:37  <planetmaker> life is a bitch :)
13:45:26  <dihedral> mathe is too
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14:03:31  <planetmaker> math is logical. Bitches not :P
14:03:50  <Eddi|zuHause> i love maths, bitches not ;)
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14:26:36  <[wito]> Is there a hard-upper-limit for distances for which subsidies are offered?
14:27:21  <Rubidium> yes
14:27:57  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15612 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Codechange: unduplicate directory creation
14:28:16  <Sacro> INT_MAX?
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14:29:01  * Rubidium was thinking about roughly MapSizeX() + MapSizeY()
14:29:09  <Sacro> ah, yes
14:29:14  <Sacro> shouldn't be bigger than that
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14:45:59  <[wito]> :P
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15:48:56  <[wito]> hmm
15:49:23  <[wito]> am I right in thinking that 'Safe Waiting Positions' can block merges but not branches?
15:49:46  <Eddi|zuHause> what?
15:50:22  <[wito]> if a train is stopped partway through a merge, that piece of track cannot be utilized until that train moves anyway, right?
15:50:51  <petern> ...
15:50:59  <[wito]> that is, none of the mergin tracks...
15:51:02  <[wito]> or...?
15:51:05  <petern> ...
15:51:11  <[wito]> STOP LOOKING AT ME LIKE THAT!
15:51:18  * [wito] hides in a corner, crying
15:51:32  <Eddi|zuHause> what does that have to do with merging or branching?
15:52:11  <petern> a safe waiting point, in pbs terms, is whereever you place your signal...
15:52:27  <[wito]> right
15:52:36  <petern> it's up to you to decide what is or isn't safe
15:52:44  <[wito]> but it can also seen opposite terms:
15:52:48  <petern> or what is and what isn't blocked
15:52:54  <[wito]> you only place signals at safe waiting places
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15:54:05  <Eddi|zuHause> in that sense, merges are more safe than branches, yes
15:54:58  <Belugas> i'd rather be on a tree
15:55:08  <Belugas> branches are not safe, they can break
15:55:16  <Eddi|zuHause> not during thunderstorms
15:56:59  <Belugas> :)
15:57:27  <petern> I WANT TO BE
15:57:29  <petern> A TREEEEEE
15:58:03  <Rubidium> petern: what kind of tree?
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16:00:00  <Rubidium> or should I say: doo dub doo duh?
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16:04:52  <petern> binary tree
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16:14:39  <Belugas> shaking the tree
16:15:18  <Eddi|zuHause> # another tree, that wanted to be
16:15:25  <Eddi|zuHause> # a sturdy boat, on the gentle sea
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16:22:17  <Cybertinus> hello
16:23:09  <Cybertinus> I'm trying to get the game music going on Linux
16:23:30  <Cybertinus> Easy Peasy 1.0 I'm running (formerly known as Ubuntu NBR)
16:23:53  <Cybertinus> but all that happens when I start the music is that it loops trough the playlist very fast
16:23:59  <Cybertinus> it doesn't play anything
16:24:24  <Cybertinus> I have downloaded the gm/ folder and put everything in /usr/share/games/openttd/gm
16:24:30  <Rubidium> do you have timidity installed?
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16:24:47  <Cybertinus> let me chec
16:24:47  <Cybertinus> k
16:25:28  <Cybertinus> no, that isn't installed :)
16:26:21  <Cybertinus> I will install that when I get home and try again :)
16:27:59  <petern> also be aware of audio mixing capabilities. many linux sound drivers only allow audio output to be opened once
16:30:33  <Cybertinus> petern: I don't that that is the problem now
16:30:50  <Cybertinus> I do hear the sound effects (trains leaving stations, boats leaving ports, things like that)
16:31:04  <Cybertinus> but I'm afk again
16:31:11  <Cybertinus> talk to you tonight
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16:31:22  <Cybertinus> I will let you know of the installation of timidity has some effect
16:31:43  <petern> yes but when you through the music into the equation, that's two audio outputs
16:31:46  <glx> it should increase cpu usage ;)
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16:55:48  <Burns> hi, i have a "neeewb" question about the alternative soundpack, how to use it in for ex the latest nightly, where should you but all these wav files?
16:56:15  <glx> there are no alternative soundpacks
16:56:39  <glx> or you must apply a patch and recompile first
16:57:17  <Burns> so there is no direct support in the latest nightly for use with these?, litle hard to compile patches in win32 :S
16:57:38  <pavel1269> why so?
16:58:53  <Burns> can you give me a simple 3step list how to download and install all requerid libs and packages for compiling this game so go ahead :)
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16:59:29  <glx>
17:02:17  <Burns> so the answer is no then :)
17:04:35  <Belugas> the answer is yes, if you mean giving you a way to know by yourself
17:05:03  <Belugas> the answer is no, if you mean effortless receving the info
17:05:09  <Burns> i think its strange that this project have been going for so long and still dont have  free sounds
17:05:34  <Belugas> we were waiting for you to complete it
17:05:53  <Burns> i only know java, sry...
17:06:25  <Burns> if it was made in java i could give you a working sound option tomorow
17:06:31  <pavel1269> :-)
17:06:40  <Belugas> jave????
17:06:43  <Burns> i hate C compilers in windows
17:06:53  <planetmaker> I only know how to make a fire in a cave....
17:06:53  <pavel1269> MSVS is good one
17:07:00  <Burns> there are no "functioning" options that are free
17:07:02  <pavel1269> the only good one i come across :-/
17:07:11  <petern> there is no problem with using different sounds
17:07:18  <petern> just there are no different sound sets
17:07:22  <Ammler> or none
17:07:31  <Sacro> Burns: errm, all functioning C compilers are free
17:07:34  <Sacro> GCC, MSVC
17:07:38  <petern> all?
17:07:41  <Sacro> well
17:07:42  <Sacro> those 2 :p
17:07:48  <pavel1269> MSVC ftw
17:08:07  <Burns> micro$ofts crap that everyone use isnt directly free in, or have i missed something?
17:08:22  <Sacro> express editions
17:08:24  <Sacro> actually
17:08:32  <Sacro> they've always released the compiler for free
17:08:34  <glx> and mingw/msys is free too
17:08:36  <Sacro> it's the IDE they charge for
17:08:45  <pavel1269> atm i must use C++ builder, u have never seen so bad C compiler
17:09:20  <Burns> i have never got any c compiler to work in windows, i havnt realytried because of the poor documentations and usability of the crap
17:09:32  <pavel1269> :-)
17:09:35  <planetmaker> <-- if you don't make money with it, Sacro, intels compiler are also free
17:09:45  <Sacro> planetmaker: indeed
17:09:51  <Sacro> there are no other worthwhile compilers
17:10:01  <Sacro> zomg fortran
17:10:08  * planetmaker just saw that they're available also for macos... hm...
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17:10:51  <Burns> i have a dev-cpp compiler i got from school 7 years ago that can compile hello world that we learned at that time :)
17:11:10  <pavel1269> :D
17:11:27  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a good start :p
17:11:46  <Burns> if you have used java and netbeans you can only laugh at the poor crap that is avaible for c
17:11:52  <Eddi|zuHause> now teach it templates and the right libraries, and you can go ahead and compile openttd :p
17:12:13  <glx> Burns: dev-cpp is built around mingw/msys ;)
17:16:29  <Burns> so if i dont have the original game there is no way to start this game? so my girlfriend has to live without ttd for the rest of her life now? poor girl....
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17:17:23  <pavel1269> why cant u just get the original game?
17:17:39  <pavel1269> its abadoned ... not officialy thought
17:17:57  <planetmaker> or download opengfx pack and be fine
17:18:15  <planetmaker> you'll have to live w/o sound, though
17:18:29  <Burns> i have it at my dad, original copy :) and i have the files on my computer. but my point is for those who dont bought the game 10 years ago they have to be able to play it also
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17:19:35  <Eddi|zuHause> sounds are not essential to playing the game
17:20:34  <Burns> there is a bug, if you dont have a the game wont start, you can manualy put a empty file and it will start but there is no how to on it in any supplied manuals or anything, it should at least say somewhere how to start without sound
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17:21:16  <Burns> or it should just warn as it does when you have a corrupt or empty
17:22:38  <[wito]>
17:23:03  <Burns> how long have openTTD project been going on? and why have noone ever thought of these things before?
17:23:14  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: Is my assertion that there are too many signals true?
17:23:24  <Sacro> hardly too many
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17:23:51  <pavel1269> [wito]: its useless
17:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> they are on the wrong side
17:24:01  <pavel1269> its generaly good, but .... useless
17:24:02  <[wito]> the intersection or the signalling? :P
17:24:03  <Sacro> its useless what?
17:24:09  <pavel1269> intersection ...
17:24:29  <pavel1269> i imagine it whole stucked ....
17:24:47  <pavel1269> hey, they r going on wrong sides! :D
17:25:10  <[wito]> LHD FTW
17:25:12  <[wito]> :P
17:25:16  <pavel1269> LHD?
17:25:19  <pavel1269> ahh
17:25:21  <pavel1269> left ...
17:25:24  <[wito]> Left-Hand Drive
17:26:10  <[wito]> I'm so used to it I usually run into big trouble when trying to read screenshots. ;D
17:26:24  * pavel1269 's searching for some screans
17:27:18  <petern> "stucked"?
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17:28:18  <pavel1269> lol, found some .... also useless :P
17:28:19  <pavel1269>
17:28:30  <[wito]> actually, In my experience the cloverleaf almost never causes gridlock
17:28:32  <[wito]> s
17:28:59  <[wito]> and it functions as a reversal in all directions
17:30:47  <[wito]> pavel1269: heh, simple junctions FTW
17:31:10  <[wito]> the lol ones aren't all that bad with PBS, tho'
17:31:18  <[wito]> they are pretty bad, but not terribad
17:31:31  <[wito]> as they only block one direction at a time
17:35:37  <pavel1269> ye, i used them to test .... ots from time, when PBS was new
17:35:42  <pavel1269> *its
17:36:48  <pavel1269> i stopped compilind ottd with my patch pack, i dont compile anymore and now i dont play anymore ... i want to get to it, but not enought time :(
17:37:04  <pavel1269> ottd is great game ... :-)
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17:48:44  <[wito]> argh
17:48:56  <[wito]> how do you keep vehicles from reloading the cargo they just onloaded?
17:49:46  <KenjiE20> [wito], "no loading"
17:50:20  <Rubidium> Burns, what about: install wubi ( & start it, open console, sudo apt-get install g++ libsdl-dev zlib1g-dev libpng-dev libfreetype6-dev libfontconfig-dev
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17:50:33  <Rubidium> that install all libraries that are needed to compile OpenTTD
17:51:14  <[wito]> KenjiE20: well, it's a bit more complicated, I suppose
17:51:27  <[wito]> If I have a two-way line between two cities
17:51:32  <KenjiE20> not particulary
17:51:39  <[wito]> consisting of a train station and an airport station in each
17:51:56  <KenjiE20> oh, this quandry
17:52:04  <[wito]> I want to move People from Town A -> Airport A -> Airport B -> Town B
17:52:08  <[wito]> that's simple enough
17:52:28  <[wito]> but I also want to move people along the same route, the other way
17:52:33  <Ammler> [wito]: cargodest
17:52:37  <[wito]> which is a bit more troublesome. :P
17:52:43  <KenjiE20> yea, there's no way around it, save removing the airport or using cargodest atm
17:52:56  <[wito]> cargodest is not in trunk, is it?
17:53:20  <KenjiE20> nope, it's branched
17:53:34  <[wito]> not even in nightlies?
17:53:54  <KenjiE20> that is trunk
17:54:11  <[wito]> right. :P
17:54:53  <Belugas> what????  nightlies are generated from trunk's code???
17:55:03  <Belugas> ho boy...
17:55:10  <Ammler> you could "simulate" your situation with tansfer at airports and no loading
17:55:31  <Ammler> but then the Airport->Town is empty
17:55:36  <Rubidium> [wito]: I'd say it's a frequently asked question, but then my only proof for that is a wiki:
17:56:13  <[wito]> actually, nightlies are trunk in any project; I'm just thick. :P
17:56:20  <Ammler> (but if you are a good "roleplayer", it should be fine enough ;-)
17:56:31  <Rubidium> [wito]: that
17:56:35  <Rubidium> [wito]: that's not true
17:58:45  <Ammler> KenjiE20: you could also make 2 Airports per town and using one for drop the other for pickup
17:59:02  <Rubidium> gcc makes 'nightlies' of several branches, we've been making nightlies of branches
17:59:03  <KenjiE20> if it's big enough to get around the noise limit
17:59:18  <Burns> Rubidium: thx for tips with wubi, i will take a look at it, but it doesnt solve my problem. i have vmware so i can always get linux going if i want to
17:59:21  <Ammler> it would look a littly funny, if the planes fly from  one to the other adjacent :-)
17:59:23  <KenjiE20> or far enough away
17:59:28  <[wito]> KenjiE20: or the trains are fast enough to move people a lot of squares to city center
17:59:46  <[wito]> what's the distance limit for airports?
17:59:56  <[wito]> that is, how close can two airports be?
18:00:06  <Ammler> KenjiE20: build those outside of the authority region.
18:00:40  <Ammler> they could be adjacent, I guess
18:01:21  <Ammler> we have done such scenarios with trains already
18:02:05  <[wito]> well, the airport express train isn't a big deal setting up,
18:02:25  <[wito]> but what sticks in my craw is sending empty trains to the airport in once city and sending empty trains to town in another
18:02:30  <Ammler> the only silly thing is planes need to switch the airport
18:02:48  <Ammler> they can't just "drive" to the other
18:03:54  <[wito]> yeah
18:04:05  <[wito]> that is silly
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18:05:16  <[wito]> but there is an option
18:05:32  <[wito]> if you have two airports in each of the towns involved, that is
18:06:08  <[wito]> if each of them has a nearby industry (like a factory or fruit plantation) you can refit the planes
18:06:18  <[wito]> transport some goods (or fruit) to the other town
18:06:22  <[wito]> and fly them back full of people
18:06:39  <[wito]> and it only costs, what, £20k per round-trip? ;P
18:06:41  <Ammler> well, that is sillier ;-)
18:07:20  <Ammler> then the best is let local transport drive empty to the town
18:07:44  <[wito]> but then the two-way problem persists
18:08:03  <Ammler> why?
18:08:29  <[wito]> if any transport is allowed two-way transport, it breaks down
18:08:41  <[wito]> because they will keep reloading themselves with their own unloaded passengers
18:08:57  <Ammler> not if the airport accept pass
18:09:10  <Ammler> then they will be dropped after unloading
18:09:35  <[wito]> true
18:09:51  <Ammler> that is how feeder systems works
18:11:02  <[wito]> hmm
18:11:07  <[wito]> brb, shop. :P
18:11:20  <Ammler> maybe it is possible to make a cargodest light, which only doesn't load the same cargo on the same vehicle.
18:12:17  <Ammler> but then you will get the pass from the bus in unloaded 1 tick before you.
18:13:01  <Rubidium> Ammler: and then two planes with the same order unload simultaniously and load eachother's cargo
18:13:09  <Ammler> yeah
18:13:18  <Rubidium> ergo: a cargodest light doesn't fix it
18:13:25  <Ammler> you would need to extend it to orders and have almost cargodest :-)
18:14:21  <[wito]> well, one very simple sollution
18:14:37  <[wito]> is to at airports never load transfer passengers that are from any station in the same town
18:15:35  <Rubidium> so when you come from an oil rig you aren't allowed to be transfered onto a plane?
18:16:35  <[wito]> hmm
18:16:40  <[wito]> let me expand on that. :P
18:17:15  <[wito]> "At airports to never load passengers that are from a station in the same town onto anything other than a plane or helicopter."
18:18:04  <[wito]> and never load onto planes or helicopters transfer passengers from different towns
18:18:12  <[wito]> which wouldn't work all that well either. :P
18:18:49  <pavel1269> "boat 9 come back. boat 9, come back!" "we have just 8 boats" "oh, boat 6, any problems?"
18:19:10  <[wito]> haha
18:19:28  <pavel1269> :-)
18:19:53  <[wito]> "At airports, never load passengers onto the same kind of transportation they arrived with unless no other mode of transportation is available."
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18:21:39  <Rubidium> so no hub-and-spoke network?
18:21:40  <[wito]> "Never load passengers onto a vehicle whose orders would bring them back to their origin."!
18:21:45  <[wito]> That last one!
18:22:53  <Rubidium> a->b->c->d->b->c->d->b->c->d <- they never go back to their origin
18:23:36  <[wito]> true, but if they are transfered in a circle like that, something is amiss somewhere in the basic layout of your network. :P
18:24:04  <[wito]> I think you will agree?
18:24:11  <[wito]> anyway, brb
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18:35:21  <Belugas> yuo're funny, [wito].  Very entertaining :)  Keep on!  I like to laugh a bit :D
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18:38:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r15613 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
18:38:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-03-04 18:38:03
18:38:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 fixed by UltimateSephiroth (1)
18:38:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 fixed by glx (1)
18:38:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 17 changed by planetmaker (17)
18:38:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: icelandic - 73 fixed by pall (73)
18:38:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 fixed by lorenzodv (1)
18:39:27  <Ammler> planetmaker: is rewriting german.txt?
18:39:35  <planetmaker> :D
18:40:05  <planetmaker> I think some improvements were made the last days....
18:40:17  <Ammler> around 50-100 changes
18:40:20  <planetmaker> changes at least :)
18:40:52  <planetmaker> go and check it out, Ammler and tell me your opinion :)
18:41:05  <planetmaker> rather 100 than 50 changes, yes
18:41:14  <Ammler> oh, german is a foreign language like english :P
18:41:22  <planetmaker> tsk...
18:41:59  <planetmaker> you still didn't properly translate to Swiss German ;)
18:42:03  <Ammler> well not like but ...
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18:42:37  <Ammler> I asked at the german forums, but there arent't interests
18:43:11  <planetmaker> maybe... for your self-indulgence? :)
18:43:20  <Ammler> and it is quite hard to chose one "dialect"
18:43:45  <planetmaker> he... yeah
18:44:03  <Ammler> as we use also german for inter-communication
18:44:12  <planetmaker> Many changes are changes which fix the German translation to a more consistant usage of certain style and words
18:44:19  <Ammler> (or however that is called)
18:45:06  <Ammler> (you do not liek some swiss tv shows, because you don't like the dialect the moderator speaks.)
18:45:59  <planetmaker> he :)
18:48:55  <Ammler>
18:49:18  <Ammler>
18:53:45  <Ammler> iirc, I did also ask at tt-forums
18:55:51  <KingJ> Anyone know what might cause trams/road vehicles to not load balance between paralell drive-through stations?
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18:56:05  <glx> yes it's a known bug
18:56:44  <KingJ> Ah, ok
18:58:59  <[wito]> Eureka!
18:59:41  <[wito]> All airports (except international and intercontinental) operate with two passenger pools:
18:59:54  <[wito]> Arrivals (where everyone that arrive by plane are put)
19:00:15  <[wito]> and Departures (where everyone arriving by local transportation, including copter, ends up)
19:00:44  <Ammler> you mean 2 stations per airport?
19:01:03  <[wito]> planes only draw passengers from the departures pool, local transport (including copters) only from arrivals
19:01:10  <[wito]> Ammler: more of an internal thing, I was thinking
19:01:24  <[wito]> all other cargo would be put in one pool
19:01:41  <[wito]> for interncontinental and international there would have to be, of course, 4 pools
19:01:48  <[wito]> two for small planes, two for big ones
19:01:48  <Rubidium> so a non inter.*al airport can't have plane-plane transfers?
19:01:58  <Rubidium> or aircraft-aircraft transfers for that matter
19:02:25  <[wito]> inter.*al airports would only have transfers from small to big planes, and big to small planes
19:02:42  <Rubidium> and what makes the inter.*al airports special w.r.t. transfers?
19:03:12  <Rubidium> it's not like big planes only do the inter.*al transport and the small planes only the local transport
19:03:17  <[wito]> Rubidium: In a large network, you would have a few huge airports, and several small ones?
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19:03:32  <Ammler> [wito]: don't define the pools per station, just make it possible to have more cargo-pools or buffers or however ;-)
19:03:45  <Ammler> which are chosesable per orderlist
19:03:54  <Rubidium> it all ends up with implementing some sort of cargodest
19:04:17  <Rubidium> so better implement that than those untransparant and complex (ununderstandable) schemes
19:04:21  <[wito]> actually, this is just Arrivals/Departures for airports. :P
19:04:38  <Rubidium> but *WHY* airports?
19:04:46  <Rubidium> train stations have the same problem
19:04:51  <Rubidium> so do those things called docks
19:04:52  <Ammler> airport is just a station
19:04:59  <Rubidium> and even those things called road stops
19:05:35  <[wito]> why airports?
19:05:39  <[wito]> WHY AIRPORTS?
19:05:43  <[wito]> Airports because:
19:06:15  <[wito]> Now that airport placement is goverened by noise level, the airport is the most likely station to be outside of town catechement area, and unable to accept passengers in its own right
19:06:31  <[wito]> making it the most likely station to be problematic in this type of feeder scenario
19:06:31  <Rubidium> *you* want to play with airports in a specific way
19:07:28  <kosher> May I ask a question: Why when I set up a goods route, when goods get transferred from refinery to ship by trucks, then by ship, and finally by another truck, I pay instead of getting income at tle last truck?
19:07:50  <[wito]> kosher: you're moving the goods too slow
19:08:05  <[wito]> meaning that when you get paid for transfer early on, you're overcompensated
19:08:13  <Rubidium> which means you are only interested in 'fixing' your problem for your case
19:08:24  <Rubidium> kosher: because you don't understand how the transfer system works
19:09:04  <[wito]> Rubidium: so no other "Advanced Setting (nice new name, btw. :)" has ever started out as a sollution to a specific problem experienced by a specific player?
19:09:46  <kosher> thx [wito]
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19:09:58  <Cutter> hi
19:10:21  <Cutter> is it possible to prevent trains from turning back when they wait too long?
19:10:23  <Rubidium> [wito]: yes, but they became a solution for all modes of transport before they got added
19:10:41  <Rubidium> Cutter: set the 'wait for signal' timeout to 255
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19:11:04  <Cutter> that's in minutes?
19:11:26  <Rubidium> no, some arbitrary internal unit
19:11:31  <Cutter> ok thanks
19:11:40  <Rubidium> 255 is the magic number for never turn around
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19:12:06  <Rubidium> there's like 3 wait for signal settings for different types of signals
19:12:45  <Cutter> is it possible to let trains run at full speed through stations?
19:13:32  <[wito]> Cutter: add Non-stop to the order
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19:14:04  <Cutter> [wito]: IIRC trains don't stop but still slow down in this case
19:14:22  <[wito]> Cutter: not in my experience
19:14:29  <Rubidium> reduce the number of (sharp) corners in the station's entrance
19:14:36  <[wito]> that too
19:15:32  <Cutter> k thx
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19:17:35  <Cutter> are transfers really profitable?
19:18:46  <Rubidium> yes
19:18:47  <planetmaker> they are just there to annoy inexperienced players :)
19:18:53  <pavel1269> :-)
19:19:11  <[wito]> I find that they are generally profitable mostly when involving a feeder service
19:19:50  <planetmaker> that's their use :)
19:20:02  <[wito]> for single-source-single-target transport (except oil from oil rigs) I try to avoid it where possible
19:20:12  <planetmaker> those orders make sure you have _loads_ of passengers waiting at your big intercity station
19:20:35  <planetmaker> and then the ICE picks them up and drops them w/o transfer at its destination
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19:22:01  <[wito]> ICE ICE baby!
19:22:22  <planetmaker> tgv, shinkansen, ...
19:22:40  <planetmaker> ... all with an on-board bistro serving ice :P
19:22:44  <planetmaker> cream
19:22:51  <[wito]> hehe
19:24:06  <[wito]> hmm
19:24:26  <[wito]> to grow, a desert town requires food and water delivered inside the same month?
19:24:28  <Eddi|zuHause> ice cream, you scream!
19:25:52  <energetic> is it already possible to transfer back in 07?
19:25:56  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: planetmaker, just reading the german forums about pbs ;-)
19:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> <Ammler> <- the canonical phrase to comment that picture is "HÀ?"
19:27:21  <Ammler> My dialect needs some "À" :-)
19:27:30  <Brokkoli> *g*
19:27:58  <Brokkoli> which region of the swiss is that?
19:28:19  <planetmaker> he @ Ammler
19:28:21  <planetmaker> :)
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19:29:03  <Ammler> Brokkoli: Amden
19:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause> is that in any kind related to your name?
19:29:31  <planetmaker> Die Grafik "" kann nicht angezeigt werden, weil sie Fehler enthÀlt.
19:30:00  <Ammler> Ammler call people from Amden "Ammler"
19:30:14  <Brokkoli> ok i understand ;)
19:30:14  <planetmaker> he... now it works... :)
19:30:40  <planetmaker> hehe. Nice, nice!
19:30:55  <Ammler> but if you go one village out from Amden, language changed and we are "Amdener"
19:31:17  <Ammler> well, Amden is somehow...
19:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a problem in mountaneous regions, "neighbouring" villages are typically in separate valleys, and thus rather isolated
19:32:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so the languages evolve differently
19:36:57  <energetic> I was talking about ottd with a friend of mine, and we asked ourselves what 'vision' the ottd project has - what does it aim for other then having fun? is there some kind of mission statement?
19:37:15  <el_en> *than
19:37:37  <Ammler> energetic: become tycoon, I guess
19:37:43  <planetmaker> don't mention the war :)
19:38:05  <pavel1269> anyone know game Constructor?
19:38:11  <el_en> energetic: the conclusion that it aims for fun is made by you, it's not a generally accepted fact.
19:38:23  <Ammler> :-D
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19:38:53  <pavel1269> there was the coolest mission specific system i ever occurd ... dynamic missions ftw :-)
19:38:58  <planetmaker> lol @ pavel1269
19:39:02  <energetic> true, very true. Am I not right with the fun part?
19:39:13  <pavel1269> planetmaker: what?
19:39:19  <pavel1269> u know that game? :-)
19:39:31  <planetmaker> ah... sorry, mixed it up with "Transporter" :P
19:39:39  <energetic> *pavel1269 joins #Constructor
19:39:58  <energetic> ;)
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19:40:35  <pavel1269> contructor where? quakenet?
19:40:49  <el_en> i wonder if e.g. Tron even knew what 'fun' means.
19:40:49  <Rexxars> constructor was awesome
19:41:11  <pavel1269> ye
19:41:25  <Sacro> <3 Transporter
19:42:24  <pavel1269> "<energetic> *pavel1269 joins #Constructor
19:42:28  <pavel1269> wtf u mean by that? :P
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19:43:10  <energetic> oh, just kidding
19:43:14  *** wollollo [] has joined #openttd
19:43:30  <energetic> next time i'll come up with better jokes ;)
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19:45:56  <Eddi|zuHause> there are no "better jokes" only "better places to tell some jokes"
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19:46:11  <energetic> haha
19:50:20  <energetic> But today is a sad day
19:50:49  <Ammler> hehe, is that forum amusing...
19:51:11  <Ammler> # "herunterladend"... "anfordernd"... also der Übersetzer gehört echt mal geköpft...
19:51:48  <Ammler> was that you planetmaker?
19:52:20  <energetic> dihedral, you here?
19:53:17  <Ammler> [20:53] [Away] dihedral is away: "knock knock - aint there" (what a client do you use?)
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19:59:27  <[wito]> Time-tabling: How useful is it?
19:59:30  <energetic> Ammler: it's just me acting as a newbie in IRC.
19:59:36  <energetic> very usefull in certain cases
19:59:47  <el_en> *useful
19:59:56  <energetic> *useful.
20:00:25  <energetic> for example: you service a town of 2,000. you bring the passengers to a town with 500 inhabitants
20:01:08  <energetic> since "full load" here on both stations will for sure cause a jam at the smaller town, "full load" at the big town, and not full load prevents this
20:01:37  <energetic> but then the ratings drop at the small town, causing little pasengers to be transported from the small town
20:01:40  <planetmaker> Ammler: no, that was done prior to me, I think. Though I might be responsible for one :P
20:01:47  <planetmaker> But then only copying bad style :)
20:02:03  <Ammler> energetic: it really depense on the client, on some clients you need to ask the nick (whois) how his "status" is, mine does show that (dih is greyed), but my client makes around 10 times more traffic then the usual clients (background traffic)
20:02:07  <energetic> solution: timetable trains to wait 5-10 days at the smaller station, now ratings will usually stay above 60%
20:02:33  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: the builtin timetabling is of rather limited use, but the "improved timetable management" is really great
20:03:06  <Cybertinus> Rubidium: thnx for the timidity tip. I installed it, and now the music works :D
20:03:11  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: trains waiting for each other and such?
20:03:23  <energetic> Ammler: I did not realize I simply could click on the user and start a private conversation
20:03:38  <Ammler> then you would see it too, I guess...
20:03:39  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: the first obvious improvement is vehicles on shared orders being spread out equally
20:03:41  <energetic> well, that part I knew, but not that he would autoreply with that answer.
20:04:17  <[wito]> Eddi|zuHause: so three water tanker trains on a 3 month time table would ensure monthly water?
20:04:19  <[wito]> Sweet
20:04:31  <energetic> no
20:05:17  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but only with improved timetabling (or much micromanagement with the current timetabling)
20:05:18  <energetic> crashes, network hickups, jams, also: towns need every 20 days water, not every 30 days iirc
20:05:29  <Ammler> planetmaker: the funny part was more the reaction of Eddi|zuHause :-)
20:05:55  <energetic> using timetabling you can boost the efficiency of your trains in some cases up to about 50%
20:06:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, it was not the first time i mentioned the low quality of that window
20:07:16  <Eddi|zuHause> [wito]: what the default timetabling is seriously lacking is synchronising timetables between different vehicles
20:07:30  <energetic> wito: to ensure monthly water, best is to drop water at a station, and then transfer it by truck into town. since the truck can handle only a small percentage of the water train cargo, it should be still busy when the next water dropoff occurs
20:07:55  <energetic> same goes for food & goods
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20:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. "express train leaves at 12:05, freight train leaves at 12:10"
20:08:48  <energetic> it however does affect your revenue a few percent
20:09:01  <energetic> since food/goods/water comes on its destination later
20:10:10  <energetic> but the best use of timetabling i found is growing towns with buses
20:14:33  <Cutter> energetic: why do you need timetables in this case?
20:15:30  <energetic> in certain cases timetabling helps ensuring stations are serviced every 20 days
20:16:14  <energetic> ie a bus stop  only generating 5 pax/mo, are best configured to wait like 10 days, if you buy 2 buses
20:16:32  <energetic> sometimes they drive behind each other, and 20 days arent met
20:16:55  <Belugas> yeah!!!!
20:17:03  <Belugas> Scotland Shame!!!
20:18:45  <energetic> usually, you would buy enough buses to make sure that 20 days are met. But sometimes, you dont have the money, or the town layout is weird and the bus needs to drive around the whole town
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20:20:00  <Cutter> a "max waiting time at stations" setting would be way simpler
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20:21:01  <Cutter> than timetables which you have to reset everytime you change the orders
20:21:51  <Belugas> [15:21] <Cutter> a "max waiting time at stations" setting would be way simpler <---  buhwhahahaha!!!!!
20:21:55  <Belugas> let's go boy :D
20:21:59  <Belugas> dig in the sources!
20:24:09  <energetic> Belugas, is your airplane available in grf already? from ur avatar on the forum?
20:24:17  <energetic> (the airplane carrying airplane)
20:24:40  <Ammler> energetic: maybe the russian set?
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20:24:59  <energetic> may be?
20:25:31  <Ammler> I know it has big planes, just not how big they are ;-)
20:25:41  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i have a problem now... Pro7 is showing the pushing daisies episodes that did not air in english... should i really bother with the translated version?
20:26:09  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: download the torrent ;-)
20:26:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: "did not air" typically means "there is no such torrent"
20:26:45  <Belugas> energetic, i do not know, at all...  Actually, that avatar was in reaction ot a comment from Eddi|zuHause :)  Initially, it was a real beluga, the white dolphin without wing
20:26:54  <Ammler> "the scene" might have the english version too.
20:27:30  <Eddi|zuHause> what? i have never commented your avatar, Belugas... maybe you mix people up?
20:28:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: it's not like i did not check that already :p
20:28:11  <Ammler> :-)
20:29:01  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause: i'm 99.9% sure it was you.  You said that whenever you saw me coming inline, you were thinking of that plane :)
20:29:06  <Belugas> long time ago... i'd say
20:29:21  <Ammler> at least from the tracker I use, they seed it with 2 languages
20:29:32  <Ammler> which episode are you looking for?
20:30:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: i am 99.9% sure that it was not me, because i am not a plane guy at all...
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20:31:17  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: 11-13
20:31:25  <Belugas> well... memory failed me
20:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> of season 2
20:31:27  <Belugas> sorry for that
20:31:52  <pavel1269> omg, i said that, rly long time ago (6months?), and u wasnt here belugas!
20:32:09  <pavel1269> i remember, cos everytime i see u, i remember that white plane :-)
20:32:37  <Cutter> <energetic> in certain cases timetabling helps ensuring stations are serviced every 20 days <-- where is it written that towns should be serviced every 20 days?
20:32:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: afair you already had that plane avatar when i first visited the forum (that must be over 2 years ago)
20:32:44  <Eddi|zuHause> (or 3?)
20:33:13  <Cutter> energetic: or is it an arbitrary delay?
20:33:14  <Belugas> pavel1269, you might have, but you're not the one who triggered the change :)
20:33:22  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause, might be 3 years indeed
20:33:37  <Belugas> around 0.3.6, iirc
20:33:45  <pavel1269> what change btw? :P
20:33:54  <Belugas> of avatar
20:34:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i joined this channel between 0.4.0 and 0.4.5
20:34:35  <pavel1269> i ma visiting forums since 0.3.0 :-)
20:35:10  <pavel1269> what ... belugas no more ottd dev?
20:36:07  <Belugas> hu???
20:36:14  <pavel1269> hmm, u r not in group, but u still have that title ...
20:36:24  <Belugas> in group???
20:36:32  <Belugas> ho... moderator...
20:36:37  <Belugas> i never was a moderator
20:36:39  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: season 2 might be only german, didn't download yet.
20:36:45  <pavel1269> y, moderator :-)
20:36:52  <Belugas> lucky for quite a bunch of newbies...
20:36:58  <pavel1269> :D
20:37:07  <Ammler> german only
20:37:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: they are the 3 last episodes of the series, they did not air in america (and afaik it is also not planned), so they will only be available on the DVD
20:37:48  <pavel1269> btw, is there a way to apply patch with MSVC?
20:38:11  <Ammler> is that serie canceled?
20:38:36  <Ammler> I thought, it is so successful
20:38:39  <pavel1269> i am lookign forward to compile my versions again, but ... i dont want 1program for getting sources, 1for appling patch, 1 for editing, 1for compiling ,,,
20:39:26  <Rubidium> compiling consists actually already of 4 programs (or even more)
20:40:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: first season was successful, second season not.
20:40:23  <pavel1269> but, i ses only one ? :-)
20:40:26  <pavel1269> *ses
20:40:28  <pavel1269> *see
20:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, it is cancelled
20:40:29  <pavel1269> wtf
20:40:36  <energetic> Cutter: it is in the code. Its not writte, and I will update the wiki page soon
20:40:47  <energetic> if I have all info complete
20:41:01  <Rubidium> everything that some people find great are not well watched by the 'morons' that like things like idols ;)
20:41:34  <Rubidium> gets cancelled prematurely
20:41:38  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it is very sad...
20:42:40  <Ammler> Odyssey 5
20:42:55  <Ammler> dunno, if I spelled it right
20:43:08  <energetic> to be complete: minimum 5 stations serviced (load/unload) every 20 days in a town, with lotsa road blocks (2x2) grows towns fastest
20:43:10  <planetmaker> Raumpatrolie Orion :P
20:43:21  <energetic> some is influenced by difficulty settings
20:43:27  <Ammler> planetmaker: I am currently wathicng U.F.O.
20:43:47  <planetmaker> :) Me the BSG 2003, first season :)
20:43:49  <Ammler> from around 1970
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20:45:29  <Ammler> BSG is one of the tv shows, I lwatch immediately if available
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20:46:10  <Ammler> s04e17 was the last, iirc
20:46:15  <Progman> planetmaker: I got all episodes of Orion on dvd ;)
20:46:26  <Progman> _ALL_
20:46:33  <el_en> Ammler: last of the last or latest?
20:46:49  <Ammler> hmm
20:47:09  <Ammler> the last one might be the latest
20:49:11  <Ammler> planetmaker: there are around 7 episodes?
20:49:23  <Ammler> Progman: I meant
20:51:22  <Eddi|zuHause> afaik BSG, like the other typical SciFi series, have 20 episodes per season
20:51:56  <Ammler> yep, but orion isn't that typical ;-)
20:52:12  <Ammler> ah you meant 17
20:52:41  <Rubidium> roughly 15-25 episodes per season is common for American series, 5-15 is common for British series (e.g. Dr Who)
20:52:49  <Eddi|zuHause> "SciFi" being the tv channel
20:53:25  <Eddi|zuHause> other comparable SciFi series being SG1 and SGA
20:53:34  <Ammler> StarTrek
20:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> StarTrek was not a series of the SciFi channel
20:54:02  <Ammler> how can you list SciFi series without StarTrek ;-)
20:54:07  <Eddi|zuHause> StarTrek (except Voyager) was produced directly for syndication
20:54:37  <Ammler> oh, you meant it that way.
20:54:39  <Eddi|zuHause> Voyager (and "Enterprise") was then produced for UPN
20:55:23  <Rubidium> starwreck!
20:55:37  <Ammler> :-)
20:55:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that is a finnish show :p
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20:56:16  <Ammler> I have some StarTrek episods translated in "schwÀbisch"
20:57:18  <el_en> i'm not quite sure, but star wreck may well be the first finnish scifi movie ever.
20:59:55  <Eddi|zuHause> the only recent german movie that comes remotely close to "SciFi" is "(T)Raumschiff Surprise - Periode 1"
21:01:12  <Eddi|zuHause> the whole scifi and fantasy sector is heavily underrepresented in germany, spread over all mediums (book, tv, cinema)
21:02:29  <el_en> nobody wants scifi when there's reality tv.
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21:05:42  <Ammler> is there a scifi show after Orion?
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21:07:21  <Ammler> there was something nice with "the global leader group" as bad guys
21:07:39  <Ammler> how are they called again?
21:08:36  <planetmaker> sci-fi with one of the biggest impacts was "war of the worlds" - as radio transmission back then.
21:08:43  <planetmaker> it's awesome and well made :)
21:10:43  <[wito]> For the record; Season 4 of BSG has 20 epis., and is the last season
21:11:06  <[wito]> and apparently, either E20 or E20.5 is going to be an extended-length special
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21:47:33  <Cutter> I came across this situation:
21:47:48  <Cutter> two ports quite far from a town
21:48:23  <Cutter> I have to use buses to tranfer people from the towns to the ports
21:49:36  <Cutter> now how to tell the boat to take unload passengers, then take passengers but not the one they just unloaded
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21:50:38  <Cutter> *how to tell the boat to load passengers but not the passengers it just unloaded
21:51:43  <Yexo> that's currently not possible
21:52:14  <[wito]> heh
21:52:21  <[wito]> I had exactly the same question earler
21:52:23  <[wito]> earlier
21:53:09  <Cutter> ok
21:53:18  <Yexo> you can work around it by having two docks on each side (one for unloading, one for loading)
21:53:21  <Cutter> I guess I'll have to make two ports
21:53:29  <Cutter> yeah
21:53:35  <Cutter> thx
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21:56:01  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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21:56:20  <Yexo> hello Nite_Owl
21:56:45  <Nite_Owl> Hello Yexo
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22:01:15  <Ammler> is Kejhic sometimes around here?
22:04:21  <Nite_Owl> Just to be clear my nick has nothing to do with a similarly named character in the upcoming "Watchman" movie. My nick is far older then that character even going back to the original graphic novel.
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22:12:50  <Ammler> STR_NETWORK_CLIENT_COMPANY_JOIN                                 :*** {STRING} ist der Firma #{2:NUM} beigetregen <-- where do you collect translation bugs?
22:14:27  <Progman> FS or via email to the translator
22:14:50  <Ammler> are you a translator, too?
22:15:33  <Ammler> well, then, planetmaker ^ ;-)
22:15:51  <Yexo> or ask for a translater account and fix them yourself
22:16:12  <Ammler> Yexo: my language isn't there :-)
22:16:15  <planetmaker> just make a note in either the German forums or in tt-forums in the German translations thread
22:16:22  <Rubidium> or go to that forum topic for german translations
22:17:56  <planetmaker> :) that's what I meant with ...or tt-forums... :)
22:18:23  <Ammler> planetmaker: do you have that one already or shall I post it?
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22:30:09  <planetmaker> please post it
22:30:22  <planetmaker> ^Ammler
22:30:35  <planetmaker> good night for today to all of you
22:30:43  <Ammler> already done :-)
22:30:48  <planetmaker> :)
22:31:04  <Ammler> patches woudn't help I guess
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22:31:44  <Nite_Owl> good night planetmaker
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22:37:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15614 /trunk/src/ai/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Add [NoAI]: AIVehicleList_Group(group_id) and AIVehicleList_DefaultGroup(vehicle_type).
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23:12:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15615 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fios.cpp):
23:12:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Feature: show scenarios/heightmaps from both your home directory and installation directory.
23:12:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change [FS#2692]: make it more likely that scenarios are saved to the directory
23:12:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: where openttd.cfg is and not the installation directory (gives problems with
23:12:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: e.g. Vista). The working directory still overrides the openttd.cfg directory
23:12:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: though, but only if it has a scenario directory.
23:13:02  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r15616 /trunk/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change [API CHANGE]: Rename AIOrder::ChangeOrder() to AIOrder::SetOrderFlags().
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23:32:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15617 /trunk/src/ (misc_cmd.cpp newgrf_engine.cpp train_cmd.cpp vehicle_base.h): -Change [FS#2694]: vehicle variables 40-43 weren't cached (though spec stated they are). Caching these variables can yield a 10+% speed increase when those vehicle variables are queried often.
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23:47:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r15618 /trunk/ ( bin/ bin/scenario/):
23:47:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Cleanup: remove unneeded (empty) scenario directory.
23:47:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Note: as you might know subversion has the tendency to also remove unversioned files when a directory is removed, so scenarios and heightmaps in that directory will be gone too.
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23:48:31  <Aali> ouch
23:48:37  <Aali> people will hate you for that
23:49:09  <Aali> (even though it's 100% their own fault they lost data)
23:49:19  <Rubidium> did I warn them?
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23:59:34  <glx> who reads log before updating?

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