Log for #openttd on 7th June 2009:
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00:00:09  <dragonhorseboy> I do use my single-platform layout a lot if the cities are suitable on the skirt tho ;)
00:01:59  <Eddi|zuHause> <dragonhorseboy> theholyduck here's first one uploaded... <- really, which kind of ancient version are you using...
00:02:12  <Eddi|zuHause> even the elrail-elevation is all wrong...
00:02:58  <dragonhorseboy> its not standard grf.. did you even looked at the track ties?
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00:03:37  <Eddi|zuHause> not talking about the grf...
00:03:52  <dragonhorseboy> well the grf set the custom bridges anyway so there
00:04:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm talking about the height of the catenary
00:04:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the grf has nothing to do with that
00:04:35  <Eddi|zuHause> it was an ancient error in openttd
00:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> which got fixed years ago
00:04:45  <dragonhorseboy> umm you're contradicting yourself.. grf = replaces original sprites&elevation
00:04:57  <Eddi|zuHause> no
00:05:05  <Eddi|zuHause> the grf can only replace the sprites
00:05:09  <Eddi|zuHause> not fix the elevation
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00:06:35  <dragonhorseboy> (its even in the parameters to 1. use default ottd or new style with fixed heads 2. default or new wires)
00:06:51  <petern> Maybe it's r8930 ;p
00:06:59  <dragonhorseboy> petern..nope
00:08:13  <petern> r11054 fixed what Eddi|zuHause is talking about
00:08:33  <dragonhorseboy> and I could had fixed it too if I was bothered setting the parameters to 1 + 1
00:09:16  <dragonhorseboy> its only 0+1 now
00:10:23  <dragonhorseboy> 0.5.3 doesn't even want to display anything at all anyway
00:10:49  <dragonhorseboy> brb
00:10:53  <petern> ...
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00:17:06  <dragonhorseboy> back
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00:31:07  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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01:19:23  <Lakie> planetmaker: when compiling do you use the
01:22:13  <glx> I use "make -f PREFIX:= CP_TO_EXE:="
01:22:52  <glx> (so it finds gcc and doesn't copy exe to exe :) )
01:46:00  <Lakie> Can't see why that'd have issues
01:46:09  <Lakie> Use a similar line here and it builds fine
01:46:14  <Lakie> (cygwin though)
01:52:23  <glx> msys
01:52:56  <glx> so makefile thinks I'm on linux trying to crosscompile :)
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01:54:01  <glx> and I need to tell it I'm not
02:03:54  <Sacro> "Members I Currently Like: Bennythenoob, 2007Alain2007, Eddi  "
02:04:09  <Sacro> poor chap, he has no sense
02:05:13  <Eddi|zuHause> it was funnier when i was on the "hate" side :p
02:06:23  <Sacro> haha
02:06:30  <Sacro> now you're grouped with a noob and a spammer
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02:12:48  <Eddi|zuHause> <- something for your good dragon-friend ;)
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02:13:06  <Sacro> welshdragon:
02:21:32  <De_Ghosty> is site down?
02:23:20  <Sacro> De_Ghosty:
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07:50:22  <Fogel> hello
07:50:56  <Fogel> does tunnel/station have built-in signals like depots?
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07:56:20  <Aali> no
07:57:20  <Fogel> :<
07:58:57  <Fogel> any ideas how to make sth like metro, 2x2 stations, without destroying too much buildings??
07:59:02  <Fogel> s/??/?
08:14:59  <Ammler> tunnels and pbs
08:16:28  <andythenorth_> correct me if I'm being foolish...with pbs, platform exit/entrance signals don't seem to be needed?
08:18:33  <Forked> you need the exit one, else the train will reserve a path beyond the station?
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08:23:18  <andythenorth_> Forked:  (tests in game) you're quite right.
08:23:29  <Forked> :)
08:26:07  <andythenorth_> just seen something new in nightlies (r16470)...far end, near end, middle station routing??
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08:29:57  <_ln> remember to vote, citizens
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08:36:31  <planetmaker> Rubidium: thanks for the nforenum binary! :)
08:40:55  <andythenorth_> Rubidium: second thanks here :)
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08:56:53  <Fogel> ihaw! i just found polish train set!
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09:58:50  <Xaroth> dihedral: yer nightly build thingie went awol i think.. it's showing revision 'r' :o
10:00:07  <Rubidium> planetmaker/andythenorth: has it been tested whether it works?
10:00:30  <planetmaker> Rubidium: initially I though 'all fine'. I managed to hit an assertion though right now
10:01:18  <planetmaker> NFORenum v3.4.6 r2117 - Copyright 2004-2009 Dale McCoy.
10:01:20  <planetmaker> Error: String 3207996 does not exist.
10:01:21  <planetmaker> messages.cpp:143: failed assertion `false'
10:01:23  <planetmaker> make: *** [sprites/firs.nfo] Abort trap
10:02:11  <planetmaker> with current checkout of the firs repository: hg clone
10:03:42  <planetmaker> I'll test with windows, too
10:04:30  <frosch123> works for me
10:05:01  <Rubidium> could be some big endian issue
10:05:38  <planetmaker> well. windows r2114 works fine
10:06:20  <Rubidium> are you running on PPC?
10:06:33  <planetmaker> it's an intel mac with 10.4.11 running
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10:07:42  <Rubidium> oh, then I've got no idea ;)
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10:07:59  <planetmaker> he... :S
10:09:31  <planetmaker> same on other grs or rather nfo files
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10:29:48  <Rubidium> planetmaker: make: *** No rule to make target `sprites/nfo/.pnfo', needed by `grf'.  Stop.
10:29:53  <Rubidium> that doesn't sound good
10:29:58  <planetmaker> ups.
10:30:07  <planetmaker> seems like I have it and then messed around
10:30:17  <planetmaker> touch it and it should work, though
10:30:48  <Rubidium> an empty file?
10:31:00  <planetmaker> yup
10:31:30  <planetmaker> it shouldn't be included / generated. But obviously is.
10:31:40  <Rubidium> okay, nforenum r2117 works fine for me
10:32:06  <planetmaker> on the pearpc?
10:32:15  <planetmaker> or lin / win?
10:32:21  <Rubidium> pearpc fails for me, just plain linux
10:32:33  <planetmaker> yeah, I expect that. r2117 is the same as r2116
10:32:42  <Rubidium> on x86/amd64
10:32:42  <planetmaker> just makefile difference for cleaning
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10:41:58  <Rubidium> planetmaker: does work? If not then I got no clue how to fix and/or debug it
10:43:31  <Xaroth> AutoTTD done \o/
10:48:13  <planetmaker> Rubidium: I'm afraid that whatever you changed didn't solve the assert.
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11:07:39  <Rubidium> planetmaker: then you better remove the binary ;)
11:07:53  <planetmaker> indeed
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13:25:45  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: frosch * r16528 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Fix [FS#2959]: Draw PBS reservation as groundsprite resp. childsprite of foundation/bridgehead.
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13:29:22  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: yexo * r16529 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_station.cpp: -Fix [NoAI]: StationIDs from oilrigs were not considered valid by the API.
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14:34:56  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: alberth * r16530 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix [FS#2964], (r16501): Deduct additional widget length given away to a child from the total (Hirundo).
14:36:01  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... the longest part of voting is folding that huge sheet of paper until it fits into the slot...
14:40:00  <Alberth> Especially since 'it should be folded such that the candidates are not visible'. That didn't quite work, the paper was too thin.
14:42:28  <glx> that's why we use envelopes
14:43:24  <frosch123> yeah, last time it was only folded two or three times, this time 5 or 6 :)
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14:50:12  <planetmaker> hehe. Yes, I was a bit amazed by the size of the paper sheet.
14:50:42  <planetmaker> but folding 3 times sufficed: 2^3 = 8 :P
14:51:15  <planetmaker> but it fit through the slot of the ballot box just, not much space left left and right of it.
14:52:01  <KingJ> This the Euro elections?
14:52:36  <frosch123> yes
14:53:00  <KingJ> Voted last thursday, huge ballot paper too
14:53:29  <frosch123> in most countries you can only wait on the last sunday
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14:53:38  <frosch123> s/wait/vote/
14:54:05  <Eddi|zuHause> german election law says that any elections must be on a sunday
14:57:09  <Rubidium> to get a strong separation of state and church?
14:58:29  <Rubidium> or doesn't the church in Germany say that one shouldn't work on Sunday?
14:58:31  <frosch123> hehe, voting is restricted to 10am to 11am, either vote or go to church :)
14:58:43  <KingJ> Tough choice ;P
14:58:59  <Rubidium> except when you're priest, then you have to work on Sunday... something's messed up I'd say
14:59:12  <frosch123> or housewife
15:05:51  <glx> the range here is 8am to 8pm
15:06:12  <glx> though for smaller towns it ends at 6pm
15:12:14  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, the sunday is protected as a working-free day, so voting should be on sunday because people have enough spare time to go to vote
15:13:24  <Eddi|zuHause> and there is no such thing as a strong separation of state and church... for example the church tax is collected by state institutions
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15:26:46  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16531 /branches/0.7/src/ (11 files in 3 dirs):
15:26:46  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk:
15:26:46  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] StationIDs from oilrigs were not considered valid by the API (r16529)
15:26:46  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Draw PBS reservation as groundsprite resp. childsprite of foundation/bridgehead [FS#2959] (r16528)
15:26:46  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: Missing guards in the NoAI API making it possible to hit an assert in OpenTTD [FS#2963] (r16524)
15:26:47  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Possible assert in AI debug window when an AI was stopped an a human company took its CompanyID [FS#2962] (r16522)
15:26:49  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] Make sure AIBridge::BuildBridge returns what the documentation says it does (r16520)
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15:43:59  <Hirundo> Alberth: suggestion: NWidgetBase::GetRect() <- returns a rectangle (Rect) with top/left/right/bottom like the old widgets
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15:47:07  <Rubidium> did he just try to fork the internet and run it dedicated?
15:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> is that such a bad idea? :p
15:53:32  <Rubidium> depends on what kind of forking has been done
15:54:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "if i format my harddrive, does the internet stay on it?"
15:54:49  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: yexo * r16532 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqvm.cpp: -Fix [Squirrel]: Don't copy an object when we just checked that the pointer to it is NULL
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16:25:12  <Alberth> Hirundo: why would that be needed?
16:27:11  <Hirundo> Not really any more, I developed a workaround which turned out to be better than the original idea :)
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16:27:26  <Hirundo> Still, it could save a bit of code duplication
16:28:39  <Hirundo> Is it true / intended that new widgets react differently when clicking on widgets of type WWT_EMPTY?
16:30:40  <Alberth> the intention is to eliminate them (i think their only purpose is to fill some places in the widget array to prevent other widgets from shifting)
16:31:03  <Alberth> I see no use for them in the nested widgets
16:31:47  <Hirundo> I currently use them to align some stuff (icons and text) in vertical columns
16:32:01  <Hirundo> Should I see this as obsolete / deprecated ?
16:32:24  <glx> I used WWT_EMPTY for virtual columns (text alignment)
16:32:55  <Alberth> one should use NWID_SPACER for alignment
16:33:14  <glx> with spacers too :)
16:33:37  <glx> WWT_EMPTY is useful to draw string on panels
16:34:40  <Hirundo> are spacer widgets included in the nested_array, or are they only used during initialization?
16:35:09  <Alberth> they are part of the tree, and can fill and/or resize
16:35:42  <Hirundo> I'll try them
16:36:18  <Alberth> they are currently not in the nested array, but at least the stacked widgets seem useful to have there, so who knows.
16:37:06  <Alberth> any particular reason they should be in the nested_array?
16:37:29  <Hirundo> to access their coordinates, so I can draw strings on them
16:37:54  <Alberth> why not use a label for that?
16:38:38  <glx> for some windows it's "impossible"
16:39:22  <Hirundo> ^^ The layout is similar to the finances window, many lines of text arranged in columns
16:39:33  <glx> like when you have to draw unknown number of line in a column
16:40:38  <glx> well it's possible to generate the window dynamically
16:40:38  <Alberth> our widgets w.r.t. text are very limited atm, I agree we need to expand there so more complex output is possible
16:44:34  <Alberth> this weekend, I read an article about Qt4, that allows html in the text for layout etc. That could be a direction (although it would be necessary to always generate the whole contents as text first, which seems less than optimal).
16:45:07  <planetmaker> hehe. qt4-ify openttd :)
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16:45:24  <Rubidium> please not html... then they want CSS too and then they want to be able to browse, so they want javascript and plugin support too
16:45:35  <planetmaker> lol :)
16:45:43  <Alberth> we'll use squirrel ;)
16:46:25  <Alberth> but yeah, html seems too complicated for our purposes.
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17:46:26  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: translators * r16533 /trunk/src/lang/ (4 files in 2 dirs):
17:46:26  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: -Update: WebTranslator2 update to 2009-06-07 17:45:47
17:46:26  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: icelandic - 8 fixed, 50 changed by scrooge (58)
17:46:26  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: russian - 8 fixed, 28 changed by Lone Wolf (36)
17:46:26  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: serbian - 100 fixed by etran (100)
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18:23:08  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
18:23:57  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: ever considered getting a more stable connection?
18:25:56  <dihedral> hoo hoo
18:26:32  <Nite_Owl> Hello dihedral
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18:31:29  <planetmaker> hm... may OpenTTD assert, if I delete files in the newgrf / data folder while the newgrf window is open?
18:32:06  <blathijs> planetmaker: OpenTTD should never assert, whatever you do
18:32:24  <blathijs> (okay, if you manually flip bits in OpenTTD's memory, then perhaps it is allowed to assert)
18:32:59  <planetmaker> I just had the newgrf selection window open and then in the file system manager deleted a newgrf.
18:33:31  <planetmaker> .../src/fileio.cpp:340: failed assertion `f != NULL'
18:33:54  <planetmaker> it's a modified version and I'll test it in unmodified trunk, though
18:36:27  <planetmaker> hm, another person got the same with unmodified trunk
18:37:57  <blathijs> Doesn't surprise me that it breaks, but it should be fixed I guess
18:38:11  <planetmaker> I'm not overly surprised either :)
18:38:26  <planetmaker> I'll make a report
18:39:32  <frosch123> also specify whether plain newgrf or tar :)
18:39:56  <andythenorth> I get a similar newgrf window crash with r16470 and r15297 (both mac).  applies to both grf and .tar.  reproducible.
18:44:45  <planetmaker> frosch123: thanks for the pointer, would have forgotten :) . It's a tar here
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18:58:02  <planetmaker> but report submitted.
19:01:52  <Nite_Owl> Ooo - a but report - who's but got reported is the question
19:02:32  <Rubidium> most of the files that are removed cause trouble with OpenTTD
19:05:53  <planetmaker> well. can be expected, sort of.
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19:06:20  <planetmaker> but a crash when re-scanning the file list is a bit unexpected
19:07:15  <planetmaker> especially as sometimes it becomes necessary to remove files in order to get the correct version ;)
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19:11:24  <planetmaker> Rubidium: how much effort is it for you to make nforenum r2120?
19:12:49  <Eddi|zuHause> would it make sense to make "nightly" builds in the compile farm?
19:14:15  <Rubidium> could be done, but it requires some changes to the make system of nforenum/grfcodec
19:14:35  <Rubidium> also grfcodec uses asm and I don't know how well that's portable to ppc
19:14:45  <planetmaker> It's an interesting idea, IMO, though
19:15:27  <planetmaker> at least grfcodec runs here. But it's an intel mac
19:18:22  <DaleStan> The asm that grfcodec uses should be pretty portable; there's no code in there. At most, there's a label, a 32-bit length, and a string of that length. The string happens to be the output of the linker, but that shouldn't be an issue, provided it exists.
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19:18:59  <planetmaker> :O
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19:19:11  <DaleStan> :O
19:19:26  <DaleStan> The length might have to be endian-swapped.
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19:20:17  <Rubidium> and for OSX there's fat binaries (PPC + i686)
19:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> why does a string have to be given in asm?
19:20:32  <Rubidium> and I don't know whether UPX plays nice with that
19:21:00  <planetmaker> Rubidium: nothing bad happens, though, if for this case there'd be separate binaries, I think
19:21:21  <Rubidium> planetmaker: then 'point and drool' won't work anymore
19:21:28  <Rubidium> for half of the users
19:21:30  <planetmaker> but upx worked on my grfcodec here.
19:21:45  <planetmaker> yes. But people who "point and drool" don't code nfo either
19:21:57  <Rubidium> although, point and drool and console tools don't work together
19:22:20  <planetmaker> :)
19:23:22  <DaleStan> <Eddi|zuHause> why does a string have to be given in asm? <-- Because C and C++ don't have a verb for "copy this file byte-for-byte into the output binary".
19:23:51  <DaleStan> Or if they do, I don't know it.
19:24:08  <Rubidium> planetmaker: try
19:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what you do with that string
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19:24:32  <DaleStan> It could be massaged through Perl, I suppose.
19:24:34  <planetmaker> Rubidium: compiled with DEBUG=1 ?
19:24:38  <Rubidium> yup
19:24:45  <planetmaker> thanks. I'll test right away
19:25:14  <DaleStan> It's a executable, so grfdiff can make .EXEs instead of GRDs.
19:25:37  <DaleStan> Rubidium, planetmaker: Thanks for going bug-hunting for me.
19:26:10  <planetmaker> well, no worries. I have a kinda big self-interest in solving that :)
19:26:27  <Eddi|zuHause> does anyone even use grfdiff?
19:27:25  <planetmaker> now... that's interesting:
19:27:28  <planetmaker> NFORENUM processing:
19:27:30  <planetmaker> renum -w 141 sprites/firs.nfo
19:27:32  <planetmaker> NFORenum v3.4.6 r2120 - Copyright 2004-2009 Dale McCoy.
19:27:33  <planetmaker> Could not open output file "sprites/" for input "sprites/firs.nfo".
19:27:35  <planetmaker> make: [sprites/firs.nfo] Error 6 (ignored)
19:29:02  <planetmaker> I really wonder why that file cannot be opened.
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19:29:40  <planetmaker> both win and mac compile on the same directory
19:30:05  <frosch123> what about eol style?
19:30:06  <planetmaker> it's in my home directory in my mac account (win is a VM with access there)
19:30:35  <DaleStan> What happens if you $ touch sprites/
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19:32:12  <planetmaker> DaleStan: same thing
19:33:55  <DaleStan> No. What was the output of touch? Did it work?
19:34:09  <planetmaker> well. no output.
19:34:16  <planetmaker> so, yes, it worked:
19:35:54  <Rubidium> could it be that I 'just' copied the boost headers from debian?
19:37:26  <planetmaker> hm... I wondered the same when grfcodec didn't work in my VM. I used the 'mac' boost library there
19:37:37  <planetmaker> *compilation of grfcodec
19:38:10  <planetmaker> but let's not disgress from renum for now :)
19:39:25  <Rubidium> <- messed a bit with the compiler flags
19:39:31  <Rubidium> it's i686 only
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19:40:33  <DaleStan> <boost headers> <-- Unlikely. NFORenum uses standard C and C++ for file IO, not boost.
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19:48:05  <planetmaker> testing...
19:50:27  <planetmaker> ... with the same result, still.
19:52:06  <DaleStan> Rubidium: Can you compile with this patch applied? (With or without DEBUG; that was for getting more information out of the "String <something> does not exist." message.)
19:54:05  <Rubidium> planetmaker: new binary with ^
19:55:08  <Rubidium> DaleStan: pastebin destroys patch files as it sees @@ as magic 'key' for highlighting and the download then has @@@@ which patch doesn't understand
19:56:31  <DaleStan> Oh. I guess I shouldn't have shoved the extra @@ in there, then. That @@@@ is my fault, not pastebin's.
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20:01:29  <planetmaker> hm... Could not open output file "sprites/" for input "sprites/firs.nfo".
20:01:31  <planetmaker> Unknown error: 0
20:01:32  <planetmaker> make: [sprites/firs.nfo] Error 6 (ignored)
20:04:10  <planetmaker> so... except the "Unknown error: 0" the same basically. ^ DaleStan
20:04:41  <DaleStan> *pout*
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20:12:58  <_ln> Hirundo: does the peer hate you?
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20:15:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Peer is angry because he lost the election
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20:20:38  <CIA-3> OpenTTD: yexo * r16534 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqstate.cpp: -Fix [Squirrel] [FS#2942]: fix crash that occured when an AI was halted while one or more generators were still in a 'running' state
20:21:20  <andythenorth> opinions?
20:23:41  <_ln> it contains the r-word.
20:23:59  <andythenorth> yup, not liking that much  :P
20:24:19  <_ln> you'd better hope it's night-time in Qu?bec.
20:24:24  <andythenorth> he he
20:24:57  <andythenorth> I don't care how realistic RV acceleration is.  But it would be nice to have reasons to use one 35t truck instead of another...
20:25:05  <andythenorth> like one is faster, but can't climb hills
20:25:07  <andythenorth> etc
20:25:16  <Yexo> andythenorth: I share your opinion
20:25:26  <Yexo> as do several others, or it would have been implemented already
20:25:43  <Yexo> but I can't remember who exactly, need to search my logs for that
20:26:05  <andythenorth> I know it's not easy, I've read hertjogan's patch
20:26:27  <andythenorth> but real physics aren't needed (unless they offer the easiest implementation)
20:27:20  <glx> call it improved instead realistic ;)
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20:30:10  <Eddi|zuHause> what's the problem with sharing the rv physics with the train physics code?
20:30:35  <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, the word "realistic" should be removed from both features
20:30:45  <andythenorth> glx: 'improved' would be exactly right.  currently a 90t coal hauler travels up an n-tile hill at the same speed as a 22-bag mail truck.  And as newgrf author, there's *nothing* I can do about that :(
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20:31:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i suggest calling the physics models "simple" and "advanced"
20:32:21  <andythenorth>
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20:35:45  <andythenorth>
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20:41:57  <Hirundo> How about an acceleration callback for vehicles?
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20:43:59  <andythenorth> just looking again at
20:44:19  <andythenorth> I wouldn't need air drag, but Roujin's hover bus might :)
20:45:38  <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: i have a feeling things called as often as vehicle acceleration should not be done via callbacks
20:45:58  <petern> i did rv acceleration some when
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20:47:03  <andythenorth> seems like the newgrf specs contain already everything required...
20:47:19  <andythenorth> ...but it's a long time since I did real physics (10 years)
20:47:29  <andythenorth> at school
20:49:39  <andythenorth> key variables seem to be weight, horsepower and tractive effort?
20:50:44  <andythenorth> but even t/e might not be required.  Just using hp would give gameplay differences between vehicles with same capacity.
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20:52:00  <andythenorth> it's all about gameplay.  balls to the realism :)
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20:54:18  <Eddi|zuHause> TE is more relevant with trains, where you have rather low steel on steel friction
20:54:39  <Eddi|zuHause> with trucks you have rubber on cobblestone or rubber on asphalt friction
20:54:42  <andythenorth> well, in the picture linked above, how about low steel on ice friction :)
20:54:52  <andythenorth> (would need roadtypes though) :D
20:55:03  <Eddi|zuHause> that's actually a funny idea, to make friction depend on roadtype ;)
20:55:20  <andythenorth> it's what I would implement in HEQS if we had the possibility
20:57:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that picture does not indicate anything like steel on ice
20:57:54  <andythenorth> the one featuring the bulldozer on snowy roads?
20:59:00  <glx> considering its weight and speed, it doesn't matter if the road is snowy or not :)
20:59:34  <Eddi|zuHause> but a crawler is not moved by friction
21:00:05  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: weight alone???
21:00:11  <glx> it probably runs better on snow though
21:00:21  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's the shape that matters there
21:01:17  <andythenorth> crawlers/bulldozders rely mostly on weight.  the general rule is "you can't push anything heavier than the bulldozer"
21:02:24  <andythenorth> as you'd see if you hang out a bit on this site  :)
21:03:48  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: brain-experiment: imagine trying to move a paper that is lying on the ground by a) putting your flat hand on the paper, and moving your hand, or b) picking an edge of the paper with two fingers and dragging the paper by these fingers
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21:04:40  <Eddi|zuHause> both are "hand on paper friction", but one method works significantly better than the other
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21:05:22  <Eddi|zuHause> it's difficult to explain technical stuff in a foreign language
21:05:23  *** Hirundo__ is now known as Hirundo
21:05:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you don't know enough words...
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21:07:01  <andythenorth> you mean that the contact area of rubber tyres is tiny, whereas the contact area of crawler tracks is relatively huge?
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21:08:07  <andythenorth> a large truck tyre often has a contact area of only square cm, where a crawler track may have square m.
21:08:42  <andythenorth> I feel we are only slightly off topic here :)  If I was coding the newgrf to implement this, it would be on topic, right? :)
21:08:50  <Eddi|zuHause> no, it's not the contact area, it's the angle of the force vs the contact area.
21:08:54  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like spikes
21:09:57  <andythenorth> you mean the grousers push? Seems you're right.
21:14:46  <andythenorth> petern: any sign of that rv acceleration code? ;)
21:15:06  <andythenorth> or is it lost in the depths of time?
21:16:50  <andythenorth> for the record, I would really ***not*** be in favour having to code the contact area or angle of force for RVs :D
21:18:26  <Rubidium> but without it it isn't "realistic"
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21:20:11  <Rubidium> actually, the concept of slipstreaming should be introduced too
21:20:36  <Prof_Frink> :o Rubidium said the "R" word!
21:21:04  <Eddi|zuHause> but it was in quotes
21:21:22  <Prof_Frink> Not to be confused with the portland "R" word.
21:21:27  <Eddi|zuHause> it's the same as with the only-english-rule...
21:22:29  <andythenorth> Rubidium: how about head wind (slows your trucks down)?  Or side wind (knocks all your trucks off bridges)?
21:22:54  <andythenorth> sheep in the road?
21:23:30  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's a discussion about weather in the german forum, you wanna join? :p
21:23:58  <andythenorth> nah really really no.  thanks though ;)
21:24:21  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: I'm thinking something similar, but for trains in autumn.
21:25:14  <andythenorth> Rubidium: ?? "andythenorth: it's all about gameplay.  balls to the realism [21:52]"   :O
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21:32:01  <Rubidium> sheep on the road can only happens when you run through farm land and then the production of the farm is reduced
21:33:51  <andythenorth> I have to draw some sheep.  And code a sheep farm.
21:33:52  <andythenorth> If anyone can provide me with a callback between an industry, disasters, road vehicles and road tile graphics, I'll be delighted to try and code sheep escaping in nfo.  I may go insane trying though.
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21:39:55  <Nite_Owl> would the escaping sheep be pixelated
21:40:41  <Eddi|zuHause> no, they could too easily be identified as being photoshopped
21:40:54  <Prof_Frink> photosheeped.
21:41:54  <Nite_Owl> baaaaaad puns
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21:45:42  <andythenorth> the escaping sheep would probably occupy approx 1 pixel at TTD scale.
21:46:02  <andythenorth> they might look a bit like snow.  Maybe tell the weather people, perhaps we could collaborate after all.
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21:47:56  <Yexo> "Why is there snow on that road tiles?" "The sheep from next door escaped"
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21:49:10  <Eddi|zuHause> anyone remembers the cute little pigs in Siedler?
21:49:32  <Prof_Frink> No. Noone does.
21:49:58  <Nite_Owl> ISR has cows and pigs
21:50:10  <Bjarni>  <Rubidium> sheep on the road can only happens when you run through farm land and then the production of the farm is reduced <-- either that or you happen to be travelling in other countries like Iceland or New Zealand
21:50:36  <Rubidium> Bjarni: s/countries/farms/
21:50:37  <andythenorth> or Wales.  Where I went today.
21:51:15  <Bjarni> I was once forced to stop in Iceland. I was travelling on main road #1 and it was completely blocked by sheep
21:51:33  <Prof_Frink> I've had to stop for sheep in the Lakes.
21:52:47  <Bjarni> the Lakes?
21:52:50  <Eddi|zuHause> we didn't have sheep in eastern germany
21:52:58  <Eddi|zuHause> we had nothing :(
21:52:59  <Prof_Frink> the Lakes.
21:53:29  <Bjarni> if you didn't have sheep, did you end up being naked due to lack of wool?
21:53:31  <Prof_Frink> The national park in Cumbria with one lake in it.
21:53:43  <Bjarni> Prof_Frink: ahh
21:53:56  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, lots of people were naked
21:54:06  <Eddi|zuHause> and each year they seemed to gather at the beach
21:54:15  <Prof_Frink> And quite a few meres, waters and tarns.
21:55:19  <andythenorth> going back to the sheep thing, it might depend on this :D
21:55:34  <Bjarni> Eddi|zuHause: FYI nudism was invented in Berlin. A doctor recommended it against certain illnesses
21:55:55  <Bjarni> (maybe getting rid of a corset and the smoke did the trick though)
21:56:16  <Bjarni> so I wouldn't be surprised if people in DDR did nudism for health reasons
21:56:44  <Eddi|zuHause> it originally was forbidden, but it grew more and more popular
21:57:06  <Eddi|zuHause> somehow, that suddenly ended after The Change
21:57:11  <DaleStan> planetmaker: ping. If you're still around, I have another diff I'd like Rubidium to compile for you and for you to test:
21:57:25  <andythenorth> DaleStan: he went to bed.
21:57:32  <andythenorth> he had a hard day.  helping me ;)
21:57:33  <Bjarni> call him :P
21:57:49  <Bjarni> I had a hard day too and I'm still here
21:57:50  <DaleStan> Bother. Well, I still have a diff.
21:58:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i fell down the stairs, beat that...
21:58:45  <andythenorth> Bjarni: you weren't helping me understand hg and make.  Try it some time, it's probably very frustrating :P
21:58:58  <andythenorth> I fell up the stairs?
21:59:03  <andythenorth> (I really did)
21:59:15  <Bjarni> I did too o_O
21:59:30  <Bjarni> well I tripped while going upstairs
21:59:31  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but that usually does not hurt as much
21:59:38  <DaleStan> planetmaker: Also, can any programs other than NFORenum open sprites/ for writing? Strictly, touch just writes to the directory, and doesn't even have to read the file.
22:00:00  <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: I nearly fell off a cliff?
22:00:19  <andythenorth> DaleStan: let me see if I can check
22:00:42  <Bjarni>  <Eddi|zuHause> i fell down the stairs, beat that... <-- so did my cousin. It took him more than an hour before he woke up >_<
22:02:14  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i managed to fall on my ass...
22:02:32  <Prof_Frink> What a conveniently-placed donkey.
22:02:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and interestingly, i managed to stop before hitting the end of the stairs
22:04:13  <Bjarni> <andythenorth> Bjarni: you weren't helping me understand hg and make. <--- I was driving all day... so much traffic and so many people disobeying traffic laws D:
22:04:26  <Bjarni> beats explaining stuff to people on IRC
22:04:52  <Bjarni> I can't get physically hurt on IRC if I or somebody else makes a mistake
22:06:16  <andythenorth> DaleStan: sorry no dice helping.  I don't have pm's file, and crossover (mac wine) isn't working for reasons that are probably science, but look like magic
22:07:10  <Eddi|zuHause> the difference between science and magic is the educational level of the observer
22:07:37  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: Shout at orudge if wine doesn't work.
22:08:08  <andythenorth> nah not fair to make it his problem.  I'll sort it out, but not before tomorrow.
22:08:10  <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> i fell down the stairs, beat that... <-- I did that 4 times (4 different stairs)
22:08:44  <Eddi|zuHause> what is a few simple instructions in an SPS IDE for me, translates to magical switching of valves for the factory worker
22:08:53  <andythenorth> bed time for me
22:09:30  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: He's got a job with CodeWeavers.
22:09:55  <Prof_Frink> glx: You really should've taken the lift.
22:10:10  <glx> no lift in the house
22:10:40  <glx> one of them is only 3 steps (but I was young)
22:12:04  <Bjarni> a single step is more dangerous than 30 steps
22:12:08  <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: I imagine his job doesn't extend to removing incorrect \ characters from my paths in crossover commands?
22:12:10  <Bjarni> you overlook the small stairs
22:12:37  <Bjarni> so I will make a staircase with 3000 steps and nobody will overlook it and it will be really safe :p
22:13:09  <glx> call it a ramp :)
22:13:33  <Bjarni> I was considering that
22:13:46  <andythenorth> bye
22:13:47  <Bjarni> but I was also considering a rack track
22:14:17  <Bjarni> it looks like it's rails, but it got something uneven that gears can attach to
22:14:35  <Bjarni> hmm
22:14:41  <Bjarni> new idea
22:14:59  <Bjarni> if a woman talks about her stairs, ask her "are you happy with your rack?" :P
22:15:14  * Prof_Frink is unhappy with his rack
22:15:28  <Prof_Frink> I lost my rock 10 on Saturday.
22:15:32  *** andythenorth [] has quit [Quit: andythenorth]
22:15:46  <Bjarni> ?
22:16:03  <Bjarni> sometimes Welsh people say ununderstandable stuff :/
22:16:17  <Bjarni> I have no idea what the last line is supposed to mean
22:19:01  <Prof_Frink> Welsh?
22:19:25  <Bjarni> aren't you Welsh?
22:19:37  <Prof_Frink> No.
22:19:46  <Bjarni> oops
22:19:52  *** Progman [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:19:52  <Nite_Owl> He is rock climber
22:20:20  <Bjarni> I thought you lived in Wales
22:20:38  <Prof_Frink> Nope, Dorset.
22:20:56  <Bjarni> why do you live there???
22:20:56  <Nite_Owl> on the rocks
22:21:20  <Prof_Frink> Because I have a job here, and there's cliffs.
22:21:29  <Bjarni> fair enough
22:22:17  *** Cybertinus [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:22:23  <Nite_Owl> shaken not stirred
22:24:01  <Nite_Owl> need to feed - later all
22:24:04  *** Nite_Owl [] has quit [Quit: Read You Soon]
22:24:25  * Bjarni wonders if Dorset is in Cornwall
22:25:22  <Bjarni> nope
22:25:43  <Bjarni> maybe I should have looked it up before writing anything
22:25:57  <Bjarni> writing something and then looking it up looks silly :p
22:26:05  <Sacro> Dorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrset?
22:26:19  <Bjarni> Doorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrstep?
22:31:12  *** Zahl [] has quit [Quit: *schiel*]
22:33:30  <petern> zummerzet
22:35:06  <Sacro> zomg a BJARNI :D
22:39:04  <Bjarni> A Bjarni?
22:39:08  <Bjarni> there can be only one
22:39:18  <Sacro> thank god :D
22:39:23  * orudge shouts at Prof_Frink
22:39:27  *** orudge is now known as Bjarni2
22:39:30  <Bjarni2> la la la
22:39:34  *** Sacro is now known as Bjarni3
22:39:37  <Bjarni2> :o
22:39:38  *** Bjarni2 is now known as orudge
22:39:43  *** Bjarni3 is now known as Sacro
22:39:50  <Bjarni> ...
22:40:17  <Bjarni> that wasn't very nice
22:40:29  <Bjarni> I was about to behead you guys
22:40:41  <orudge> that wouldn't be fun
22:41:03  <Bjarni> speak for yourself
22:42:12  <Bjarni> orudge: you work for CodeWeaver now?
22:42:20  <orudge> well
22:42:21  <orudge> not yet
22:42:34  <orudge> but I should be soon, yes
22:42:37  <orudge> after graduation and suchlike
22:42:55  <Bjarni> and CodeWeaver agrees on this?
22:43:09  <orudge> they offered me the job :p
22:43:37  <Xaroth> isn't CodeWeaver something like wine?
22:43:55  <orudge> yes
22:43:58  <orudge> well
22:43:59  <orudge> they work on Wine
22:44:01  <Xaroth> ah, nice
22:44:03  <orudge> and CodeWeavers
22:44:04  <orudge> er
22:44:05  <orudge> CrossOver
22:44:58  <Bjarni> I like the concept of CrossOver
22:45:20  <Bjarni> but right now I have little use for it
22:46:03  <Bjarni> I mean if I need windows then I most likely need 3D graphics or something and that takes priority from multitasking so I just dualboot
22:46:30  <Xaroth> my boss uses vmWare Fusion for running windows stuff on his mac
22:46:47  <Xaroth> then again he has a beast of a mac and can run two os' at once like that
22:46:57  <Xaroth> .. and he doesn't even game on it :/
22:47:01  <Bjarni> that's also an ok solution
22:47:29  <Bjarni> I think Parallels are better at gaming, but I'm not sure
22:47:55  * Xaroth shrugs
22:47:57  <Bjarni> <Xaroth> .. and he doesn't even game on it :/ <--- freak
22:48:09  <Xaroth> he's just nutters.. 20g ram, 2 cpus, 2 gfx cards, 2 32" screens
22:48:12  <Xaroth> and NO GAMES
22:48:37  <Bjarni> what does he use it for?
22:48:40  <Bjarni> mail?
22:48:47  <Xaroth> mostly, yes
22:49:06  <Bjarni> err... I was just joking o_O
22:49:12  <Xaroth> well one boss uses his beast for mail and office stuff
22:49:17  <Xaroth> other one actually likes to photoshop a bit
22:49:21  <Xaroth> he does photography as a hobby
22:49:38  <Xaroth> i think it started out more as a epeen contest
22:49:41  <Bjarni> do any of them use it for work related tasks?
22:49:50  <Xaroth> they both use it for work related tasks
22:49:57  <Xaroth> and that's about it
22:50:13  <Xaroth> watching the servers, mailing customers, browsing a bit
22:50:17  <Bjarni> I meant work related tasks, which wouldn't work well on my mac
22:50:22  *** Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: Restarting]
22:51:00  * Xaroth shrugs
22:51:06  <Xaroth> I'm stuck to windoze .. vmware infrastructure client doesn't like to run well on unix
22:51:51  <Xaroth> though my work machine has vmware workstation on it with an ubuntu installl running on that for when i do lots of stuff on linux machines
22:51:59  <Xaroth> just works better than running 50000000 putty screens
22:52:46  <Bjarni> install ubuntu as main OS instead :p
22:53:52  <Xaroth> nah, i have to do too much windows related crap
22:54:03  <Xaroth> i would if it was feasable
22:55:02  <Bjarni> I recently switched to open office. Turns out that it appears to be better than MS office
22:55:13  *** PeterT [] has joined #openttd
22:55:16  <Xaroth> ugh, i finally got used to the crappy ribbon bar
22:55:23  <Bjarni> first of all MS didn't bother to translate their package
22:55:26  <PeterT> sup
22:55:39  <PeterT> anyone care to join my server?
22:55:45  <Bjarni> no
22:55:46  <Xaroth> I think they just wanted to piss everybody off by hiding ALL the buttons and call it 'efficient' .
22:56:21  <kennobaka> I just hide it and type, since that's what I really want out of a word processor
22:56:34  <Bjarni> hiding buttons to make efficient....
22:56:44  <Bjarni> my next app will not have any buttons at all
23:02:16  *** Lakie [~Lakie@] has joined #openttd
23:07:43  <theholyduck> i wish closed source developement would be more open source like in terms of quality
23:08:08  <theholyduck> i'm betatesting this mmo. and it consitently crashes in some areas
23:08:22  <theholyduck> and laaaagg ;(
23:08:44  <PeterT> hey duck
23:08:48  <PeterT> join my server
23:08:54  <PeterT> !  SimulationNation
23:08:57  <PeterT> USA Map
23:08:59  <theholyduck> PeterT, been running long?
23:09:04  <PeterT> no
23:09:06  <PeterT> just started
23:09:11  <PeterT> no one is on
23:09:15  <PeterT> check it out
23:09:26  <theholyduck> lawl. i cant find my 0.7.0
23:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> no closed source development company would survive long enough to get this level of quality control from a handful of developers
23:09:46  <theholyduck> Eddi|zuHause, well i gave them the hint to maybe atleast use a bug-tracker
23:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> four eyes see more than two, they say
23:09:51  <theholyduck> so users could elaborate on eachothers
23:10:33  <theholyduck> but i mean, if any open source project besides ubuntu called this beta
23:10:35  <theholyduck> they would be shot
23:11:49  <Eddi|zuHause> there is a huge number of buggy open source projects
23:12:03  <Eddi|zuHause> there is also a huge number of unsuccessful open source projects
23:12:03  <theholyduck> Eddi|zuHause, well yeah but they call themself alpha or pre-alpha
23:12:16  <theholyduck> beta in my book denotes some quality
23:12:41  <Eddi|zuHause> quality is subjective
23:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> besides, what was considered beta quality 20 years ago is now shipped as final
23:13:19  <Eddi|zuHause> with a patch on release day
23:13:33  <Eddi|zuHause> simply because patches can be more easily distributed
23:13:46  <Eddi|zuHause> so beta quality lowers accordingly
23:15:24  <Bjarni> goodnight
23:15:25  *** Bjarni [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
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23:18:06  <PeterT> `night
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