Log for #openttd on 23rd July 2009:
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00:01:59  *** AdditionalData [] has joined #openttd
00:02:06  <AdditionalData> Hi there
00:02:11  <Yrol> hello AdditionalData
00:02:20  <AdditionalData> Everyone okay?
00:03:49  <AdditionalData> I will take that as "We've all been shot"
00:04:23  <Yrol> i take that as you being impatient :o)
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00:09:21  <AdditionalData> haha :D
00:09:28  <AdditionalData> Any developers here?
00:09:58  <Yrol> you mean.. alive ones?
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00:10:46  <Yrol> just ask your question :o)
00:12:04  <AdditionalData> yes, alive developers?
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00:12:24  <AdditionalData> Hello Rubidium
00:12:37  <Rubidium> hi
00:13:33  <AdditionalData> What features are you interested in implementing in OpenTTD?
00:13:38  <AdditionalData> (I sound like a reporter)
00:14:13  <Yrol> °giggles°
00:14:17  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16923 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp waypoint_cmd.cpp waypoint_func.h): -Codechange: move Cmd*Buoy* to waypoint_cmd.cpp and make them behave more like waypoints, e.g. reuse station signs of recently deleted buoys
00:14:49  <Yrol> (AdditionalData) being able to resize and move every window by default.
00:15:11  <Rubidium> whatever I'm in the mood for
00:15:42  <Rubidium> or something that kills mosquitos by thought, but that's not really 'in OpenTTD'
00:20:11  <AdditionalData> Ah, lol, thanks
00:21:20  <Eddi|zuHause> you need more than a level two telepath to influence lesser creatures
00:21:52  <Yrol> oh... a thing that annoys me quite some... why is it so, that we cant use edgescrolling, if there is a thing above the acutal landscape? with edgescrolling on, you only can scroll to the left and right, if you have no windows open, as the top and bottom GUI blocks scrolling.
00:22:09  <Yrol> ( and every window that touches the border does that too actually )
00:23:59  <AdditionalData> maybe it's so you dont accidentally scroll when clicking a button next to the edge of the screen?
00:26:02  <Yrol> (AdditionalData) hm, that sounds logical. however... if you are used to edgescrolling-games, or use edgescrolling, you basically are aware about that and move the mouse anyways more careful i woujld guess.
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00:35:25  <AdditionalData> (Yrol) Yes, but bear in mind that some people may be running a high resolution on a small screen (such as a laptop) which can make the buttons very small.
00:35:55  <AdditionalData> and if only 2/3 of the button is useful before the screen starts scrolling, that's frustrating
00:38:06  <Aali> on the other hand, edge-scrolling is useless if it only works in some directions
00:38:42  <Aali> I think that would be a lot more frustrating actually
00:38:46  <Aali> I never use it though
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00:45:22  <Yrol> (AdditionalData) not everyone has a 50' LCD...... it would be quite wrong to steer the development of a game in a way that only rich people can "use" it :o) its a small matter though, really. im not interested in breaking off a war about it.
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00:52:05  <AdditionalData> It might be best to have your idea as a switch in the game settings
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00:52:37  <AdditionalData> "Do not allow window objects to affect scrolling" or something like that
00:52:49  <Yrol> (AdditionalData) of course. i would do it onyl that way, so every user has a choice.
00:53:31  <AdditionalData> Are you a developer Yrol? I'm not really sure.
00:53:36  <Yrol> but, if i could make it, i would change something else about openttd.
00:54:26  <Yrol> (AdditionalData) i only have ideas. sadly, not the means to make them come true. so, you could say im a developer without tools.
01:05:07  <AdditionalData> Ah
01:05:40  <AdditionalData> i guess it's something you've got to wrok at before you can participate in development
01:05:47  <AdditionalData> *work
01:06:01  <AdditionalData> like walking before you can run
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06:47:59  <blathijs> Rubidium: Hey, you removed
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07:00:16  <TrueBrain> poor blathijs
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07:02:10  <Donald__> hello, is there change to get computer ai in multiplayer game ?
07:03:07  <TrueBrain> Donald__: upgrade to 0.7.1, and you can
07:03:42  <Donald__> I have that versio. Where i can actice computer ai ?
07:03:56  <TrueBrain> download them
07:04:04  <TrueBrain> via Content Service (or what is its name)
07:04:31  <Donald__> ok, then where i can active this contend to this multiplayer game ?
07:04:38  <Donald__> content :D
07:04:57  <TrueBrain> enable the switch which says: allow AIs in multiplayer
07:05:07  <TrueBrain> make sure the difficulty settings have an AI (all on the server)
07:05:10  <TrueBrain> and it will start
07:05:17  <TrueBrain> if you can't wait, enter in the console on the server: start_ai
07:05:40  <Donald__> ok thanks .. I have to check that :)
07:05:55  <Forked> Good morning :)
07:06:04  <TrueBrain> good morning to you too Forked
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07:45:05  <planetmaker> moin
07:45:41  <TrueBrain> IT IS A PLANETMAKER!!!!! :)
07:45:44  * TrueBrain makes a YEAH sound
07:46:07  <planetmaker> oh, a true brain. Beware the fakes, though ;)
07:46:15  <TrueBrain> yeah, they tend to be around
07:46:24  <planetmaker> lately quite a lot
07:48:16  <TrueBrain> shall we flame them? :P
07:48:19  <ddfreyne> you from Magrathea?
07:48:55  <TrueBrain> then I would send you two torpedos
07:49:08  <Prof_Frink> Oh no, not again
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08:08:54  <fjb> moin
08:09:15  <TrueBrain> oh no, a fjb
08:09:28  <fjb> Oh yes
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08:19:11  <TrueBrain> wb reldred, we almost missed you :)
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08:29:59  <Ammler> good day you guys.
08:31:25  <TrueBrain> morning Ammler
08:31:28  <TrueBrain> how are you this morning?
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08:33:06  <Ammler> this morning is fine, thanks, how is you?
08:33:24  <TrueBrain> good good :) Breaking my brain over programming problems .. always good to wake up with :)
08:33:26  <Ammler> oh, you are around quite long already :-)
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08:33:51  <Ammler> using netbeans now?
08:34:05  <TrueBrain> yup, works very well I have to say
08:34:07  <TrueBrain> a bit slow from time to time
08:37:47  <TrueBrain> and it makes mistakes .. but that we all do :p
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08:41:25  <Rubidium> blathijs: no, I've moved it
08:41:32  <blathijs> Rubidium: where to?
08:41:58  * fonsinchen uses eclipse
08:42:04  <Rubidium> s@debian@ports/debian@
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08:47:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16924 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix (r16922): selling or sending to depot, what's the difference? :)
08:47:40  <TrueBrain> oeh, I know thatone!
08:48:11  <Rubidium> so fetch your cookie at albert
08:49:04  * TrueBrain runs to Alberth
08:49:08  <TrueBrain> Alberth Alberth Alberth Alberth Alberth Alberth Alberth
08:49:10  <TrueBrain> I WANT A COOKIE!!!
08:49:18  <Noldo> low on sugar are you?
08:49:23  <TrueBrain> low?
08:49:42  <Rubidium> "zo high als een Vlaamse papegaai" ;)
08:49:47  <TrueBrain> hahahaha
08:50:04  <fjb> Become a web browser and you get lots of cookies.
08:50:11  <TrueBrain> oeh, yes please
08:50:15  <TrueBrain> how can I become one? (Liza mode)
08:50:18  * Alberth locks cookies until TB calmed down
08:50:24  <TrueBrain> :'(
08:50:29  <TrueBrain> Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium
08:50:35  <TrueBrain> Alberth doesn't want to give me my promised cookie :(
08:50:56  <fjb> Liza must have impressed you.
08:51:03  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: try
08:51:07  <TrueBrain> fjb: in ways I can't describe
08:51:19  <Alberth> TrueBrain: programming so early in the morning makes you a bit hyper, doesn't it?
08:51:21  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: okay .. to who can I send the bill? :)
08:51:31  <TrueBrain> Alberth: only in the morning? :)
08:52:00  <Alberth> we can always generalize later for a 2nd article :p
08:52:25  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: 3354XN 6?
08:52:41  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: LOL! Touche
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09:11:18  <TrueBrain> I .... see ... the Westwood logo!!! :O :) :) :) :) :)
09:11:20  * TrueBrain makes his happy dance
09:11:22  <TrueBrain> omg ...
09:12:34  <Forked> good old westwood
09:17:05  <Alberth> you deserve a cookie!
09:17:13  * Alberth gives cookie to TrueBrain
09:17:27  <TrueBrain> THANK YOU!! :)
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09:46:54  <TrueBrain> I am so happy :) :)
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09:51:13  <Ammler> :-)
09:51:18  <Svish|eee> :-)
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10:44:08  <dihedral> [11:17:13] * Alberth gives cookie to TrueBrain <- reminds me of kronk :-P
10:44:38  <TrueBrain> good morning to you too dihedral
10:44:46  <dihedral> hello TrueBrain
10:44:48  <dihedral> :-)
10:44:52  <dihedral> how is you?
10:45:02  <TrueBrain> good :) I saw the Westwood logo, so I am all happy :)
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10:47:55  <Alberth> dihedral: seems like a nice guy :)  he also knows squirrel: '...and his ability to "speak Squirrel." ' (
10:48:28  <dihedral> Alberth: The Emperor's New Groove
10:48:33  <dihedral> TrueBrain, coool :-)
10:48:48  <Alberth> oh dear, a fan :)
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11:49:06  <Yrol> hello every body and every mind :o) anyone working with turoise-SVN?
11:50:22  <planetmaker> Yrol, you should ask the question you want to ask and not useless meta-questions
11:51:41  <TrueBrain> Anyone working with a computer? Yes? Working with an OS? Yes? Working with Windows? Yes? Working with a 32bit or 64bit version newer than 98 but older than 7? Yes? Working with GUI applications? Yes? Working with OpenTTD? Yes? Working with the source of OpenTTD? Yes? Working with SVN? Yes? Working with a GUI for SVN? Yes? Working with TortoiseSVN? Yes?
11:51:45  <TrueBrain> yeah .. can be a bit annoying :)
11:51:55  <Yrol> in an environment, where the people i see are present, i would agree with you, planetmaker. in an environment, where only 10% or so of the gathered people probably read my thigns, i tend to first check on if it is worth typing 5463 words.
11:52:17  <TrueBrain> Yrol: I do expect 5463 words from you now, you do understand that, right?
11:52:29  <Yrol> oh noes :o(
11:52:47  * planetmaker hugs TrueBrain
11:53:04  <planetmaker> I'll copy & paste it and pipe it through wc :-)
11:53:47  <planetmaker> Yrol, but then you expect other people to waste time with useless chatter and reading pointless questions. Is that fair?
11:54:05  <planetmaker> After all it's you who wants obviously something answered. Not we.
11:54:20  <blathijs> Yrol: The problem is, that of those 10%, less than 1% will probably reply to your meta questions, even while the other 9% could have answered the real question :-)
11:54:26  <KenjiE20> plus when the 'other' people come back, they get utterly confused when they can't find the original question
11:54:37  <Rubidium> planetmaker: and thus we continue with useless chatter about the pointlessness of his questions...
11:54:47  <planetmaker> hehe :-)
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11:54:54  <TrueBrain> aren't we one happy family
11:54:57  <TrueBrain> oh .. then Chruker joined
11:55:05  <planetmaker> Rubidium, I still believe in (some) people being able to learn.
11:55:10  <KenjiE20> lol TrueBrain
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11:55:16  <Chruker> oh snap
11:55:28  <planetmaker> yes, I know, I'm naive.
11:55:50  <TrueBrain> I love you anyway planetmaker
11:55:58  <planetmaker> and I remember you telling me the same things, btw, Rubidium :-)
11:56:17  <Yrol> is it possible to get everything in svn:// downloaded with turtoise-SVN? i only want to use SVN for downloading, i am in no place to uplaod changed things as i am still wet behind my cpp ears
11:56:41  <TrueBrain> as long as you don't checkout that URL, you should be fine
11:56:47  <TrueBrain> read a howto how SVN works
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11:57:31  <Rubidium> Yrol: the former is possible, just not with TortoiseSVN. But then, you don't need everything in OpenTTD's SVN repository
11:57:40  <Yrol> TrueBrain:i am confused now, is not "checkout" the usual way to "get" the source?
11:57:50  <TrueBrain> Yrol: well, the URL you suggest is EVERYTHING
11:57:53  <TrueBrain> which .. well .. is a lot
11:57:55  <Yrol> yes.
11:57:56  <TrueBrain> and a bit useless
11:58:03  <TrueBrain> you are better off using something like svn://
11:58:15  <TrueBrain> or for all I care: svn://
11:58:20  <Chruker> Just be sure to not checkout using the svn root. Or else you'll end up with downloading nearly 2gb of the various versions :-)
11:58:33  <planetmaker> :-D
11:58:34  <Yrol> okay. mmh yummy...2GB
11:58:38  <planetmaker> you tried, Chruker ?
11:58:44  <Chruker> yes :-)
11:58:48  <TrueBrain> I should start banning people for trying it ....
11:58:49  <planetmaker> :-O
11:58:57  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, oh, no :-)
11:59:40  <Chruker> luckily it did it with roughly 6:1 compression so it only clocked up about 300 mb download.
11:59:42  <planetmaker> there might be good reason to allow a complete co
11:59:53  <planetmaker> e.g. establishing a mirror
12:00:16  <Rubidium> Yrol: you wanted to do a checkout of the whole 'current' repository, which includes all releases since 0.3.4 or so, which is 53 releases. That would mean, together with the other branches that you'd get about 60 times more than what you need
12:00:36  <Yrol> °nods°
12:00:41  <KenjiE20> isn't the website also in there?
12:00:50  <planetmaker> ^
12:01:11  <planetmaker>
12:01:23  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: we don't need people to establish a mirror :p
12:01:23  <planetmaker> ^ that should show what you'd get roughtly
12:01:37  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, well... :-) so what?
12:01:53  <TrueBrain> so I should ban people for it :p
12:01:55  <TrueBrain> MWHAHAHA
12:02:21  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16925 /trunk/src/ (station_cmd.cpp waypoint_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r16909): guard commands more against using waypoints as stations and/or accidentally reusing waypoints for stations or vice versa.
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12:04:46  <Yrol> hm, i just downloaded the source only, but i wont be able to easily apply those diffs then with SVN, i think.
12:05:26  <planetmaker> Yrol, what address did you checkout?
12:05:28  <Alberth> you apply diffs with patch, not with SVN
12:06:23  <Yrol> planetmaker, none yet, i used the links in the last URL you posted.
12:07:35  <Alberth> those are mercurial links, not SVN links.
12:09:30  <Yrol> about your other question, planetmaker... i thought, IRC "is" for chatting, so yes, i kinda expect people who are there to talk.
12:14:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16926 /trunk/src/station_cmd.cpp:
12:14:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix (r16925): if checking whether a station can be adjoined, don't check
12:14:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: whether 'the other station you have already found' to be valid but the station
12:14:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: that you just found. Especially because you won't have found as station until
12:14:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: you have found one.
12:14:17  <Noldo> wwwhat?
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12:41:02  <OwenS> planetmaker: I can think of a worse thing to do. A full git-svn mirror :p
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12:54:24  <Ammler> what a comment :-D
12:55:46  <TrueBrain> in my mind I put tons of worse things in a row
12:55:50  <TrueBrain> decided I should not share most of them :p
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12:57:49  <Ammler> (I meant the comment from rubi)
12:59:38  <Belugas> hello
12:59:45  <TrueBrain> euh .. when did Rubidium last talk ...
12:59:48  <TrueBrain> howdie Belugas :p
13:00:08  <dihedral> TrueBrain, Rubidium mostly talks with his commit messages :-P
13:00:17  <TrueBrain> dihedral: ssttttt :p
13:00:20  <Belugas> 5 minutes ago, somewhere else, TrueBrain
13:00:25  <Belugas> 55
13:00:32  <dihedral> 42
13:00:35  <Belugas> damned keyboard
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13:01:12  <Rubidium> Belugas: lies!
13:04:00  <Belugas> hum?
13:04:08  <Belugas> you dare call me a liar???
13:04:18  <Belugas> this calls for retaliation!
13:04:28  <Belugas> or somethng like that...
13:05:06  <Rubidium> 58:59 before TB asked his question I 'talked' in this channel
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13:05:41  <Rubidium> but then when I said 'Belugas: lies!' I talked 0:00 ago ;)
13:06:04  <Belugas> hehe
13:06:05  <Alberth> you also spoke at the forum
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13:18:55  <planetmaker> <-- I want to see Rubidium proposal implemented NOW!
13:19:00  <planetmaker> May I be so demanding? ;)
13:20:24  <OwenS> lool
13:20:35  <Noldo> of cource you may, provided that you are the implementor
13:21:07  <OwenS> Noldo: I've done it but it won't let me commit. Some silly message about "no changes"
13:21:43  <Alberth> try pressing 'save' in your editor first :p
13:21:43  <planetmaker> Noldo, let me show you you a working implementation:
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13:35:46  <Belugas> mmh... sounds like sarcasmometre not working totally...
13:35:49  <Yrol> glx. its really all about how to install things °sighs° i just reinstalled the whole compiling environment to different and separate directories and now, for the first time in daaays, it worked :o)))
13:50:48  <Markk> This junction can handle dual-headed trains at 160km/h with no problem:
13:50:57  <Markk> WHat do you guys think?
13:50:58  <Markk> :)
13:51:37  <Yrol> too big?
13:51:48  <Rubidium> Yrol: you installed stuff on Windows without rebooting in between, right?
13:52:31  <Markk> Yrol: Can you make it smaller with the same capacity and handle of speed?
13:52:42  <Markk> I think it was a little too small
13:52:51  <Markk> You can make it bigger if you want faster trains
13:53:22  <Yrol> (Rubidium) i rebooted a few times now and then, but the baseproblem was the various folders with sdk-things
13:55:40  <Yrol> (Markk) im just thinking, it is a bit too big to fit into a map, you kinda can only use it in special maps which are only made for such constructions, aye? and without some kind of blueprintsystem (ability to create schemata and use them instead of rebuilding the whole thing ) in place ( yet ) it would take ages to build it more than once on a regular base
13:57:40  <Markk> Nah, took like, 10m
13:57:43  <Markk> From scrap
13:57:58  <Markk> Had a little bit boring at work, so tried this
13:58:04  <Yrol> however... it looks amazing :o) i am having big problems with the whole railplanning and all that signalling. gladly, PBS is there now! :o))
13:58:11  <Markk> Haha
13:58:13  <Markk> Yeah
13:58:15  <Markk> PBS is love
13:58:16  <Markk>
13:58:18  <Markk> Look at that
13:58:32  <Markk> They're bigger and more complex
13:58:53  <Belugas> haaa... the good old times when pbs was not there... how fun it was back then...
13:59:57  <Markk> Haha
14:00:13  <Yrol> hm, Markk, as it seems, that you have a bit of knowledge... i have a tiny problem with a station near a city which undertunnels it. lets see, if i get a screenshot uplodaded somewhere
14:00:25  <Markk> Use
14:00:36  <Markk> I can look at it
14:00:37  <Markk> :)
14:00:47  <Markk> Upload the savegame otherwise
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14:02:31  <OwenS> Markk: Many #ottdc junctions are huge because of balancing (or unabalncing in the SML case) in order to meet our huuge loads
14:02:52  <Markk> Yeah
14:03:17  <planetmaker> and because of the doubling in order to keep a constant signal density of 1 / 2 tiles
14:03:47  <OwenS> And because often they grow organically when they start to die under pressure
14:04:23  <planetmaker> I wouldn't say it happens often. Only with bad builders :-P
14:04:25  <Yrol> hmmmm "You have asked Firefox to connect
14:04:25  <Yrol> securely to, but we can't confirm that your connection is secure.
14:04:26  <Yrol> "
14:04:39  <Markk> Use the fallback-uploader
14:04:45  <Markk> (It's under the usual)
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14:06:22  <Yrol> (Markk) here is my station
14:06:56  <Markk> Mkay
14:06:58  <Yrol> how can i make sure, that if a train needs servicing, it would take the depot in the station?
14:07:02  <Markk> What's the problem
14:07:19  <Markk> That's not a good stationlayout if you ask me btw
14:07:34  <Markk> Oh
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14:08:14  <Markk> You can't do that if a train has taken up the platform in the middle
14:08:42  <Belugas> hey!... let go my platform, you dirty train!!
14:08:57  <Markk> :D
14:10:11  <Yrol> (Markk) i am not a openttd-hardcoreplayer :o) i know that there are prolly 5 better ways to do such a station. yes, that i know about, but... there seems to be a priorityproblem too, the train never would go to that depot, ( imgaine the other depot being not there ) but actually to a depot at the other station ( some 200 tiles away ) because the train doesnt "see" that depot as it is too many tiles away from the statiosn entrance. ( i dont know if that range
14:10:55  <Markk> DOn't know about that, ask here instead
14:10:58  <Markk> I have too go btw
14:11:02  <Markk> Cya guise
14:11:07  <Yrol> bye Markk
14:13:54  <Yrol> is there somewhere a description of how a train decides to which depot it will go? does it have to do with railpenalties?
14:14:33  <Eddi|zuHause> honestly... what a silly station...
14:14:44  <Yrol> its noted :o)
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14:15:44  <Yrol> does that devalidate my question?
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14:16:03  <Eddi|zuHause> why would i care about your question? :p
14:16:51  <Alberth> Yrol: most likely the pathfinder finds one.
14:17:55  <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) because a personal disposition should not be taken into account?
14:20:02  <Yrol> Alberth, yes. but how? it seems, that, if the train decides it has to go to a depot, it looks around within a certain radius of tiles ( or a specific penatlylimit ) and if within that radius it cant see a depot, it looks for the next one
14:20:29  <planetmaker> 14 tiles
14:20:50  <Belugas> the fun of ottd is not to have the best station/junctin/network according to the others, but to experiment and find the proper setup suited for your own needs
14:20:54  <Belugas> my opinion
14:21:03  <Belugas> "Am I good?"....
14:21:37  <Alberth> Yrol: " looks for the next one" <-- I think it simply tries again some time later. Not sure about that though.
14:21:39  * planetmaker pats Belugas . Yes, you're a good boy :-P
14:21:57  <Yrol> (Belugas) exactly. i build not by "website-galleries of the msot useful stations" but by my own preferences.
14:21:58  <Belugas> purrrrrr purrrrrrr
14:25:38  <Yrol> planetmaker, but railwaypenalties are also taken into the search? so a depot which is nearer but at the end of a station would still not be used, instead a similar depot at the beginning of a station would be used, if within 14 tiles?
14:26:14  <planetmaker> no idea
14:27:58  <Belugas> yeeeekk...  that sounds like precise micro-management to me
14:28:23  <Belugas> why not put depots before and after stations?
14:28:30  <planetmaker> also, I don't care. If a train needs servicing, I give it explicit orders to do so when and where.
14:29:35  <Belugas> hey Train, time to go for your poopooo
14:29:46  <Belugas> ho.. shit... that's a train... not a kid...
14:29:48  <Alberth> Yrol: a pathfinder uses those penalties, so I suppose so (2 times).
14:29:50  * Belugas ducks
14:30:40  <Alberth> not that I care, I trust a train will find a suitable depot.
14:30:45  <Yrol> Belugas, in the provided screenshot, thats easy, i jsut wold set it up right or left of the track in front of the station, between those two signals. but, when i build 4 or more tracks ( 2 rightway, 2 leftway ) i get into problems, as then it may be, that the depot again is beyond the 14 tiles limit
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14:32:04  <Yrol> basically, i just build along without any "ridiculous tilecounting" , but do so, if something seems not to work
14:32:43  <Belugas> that's the fun with that game, everyone plays it the way he feels the best :D
14:32:52  <Yrol> yup :o)
14:34:06  <Belugas> my son loves planting trees before placing a station.  I told him it was useless, he does not care ;)
14:34:10  <Belugas> he just likes doing it
14:35:04  <Yrol> it gives a station a nice scent, so more passengers will gather there, or, the workers at the coalmine wil lwork faster and more happy.
14:35:15  <Markk> :D
14:36:50  <Belugas> someone should create a grf for vineyards and boots where they are selling wine...
14:37:06  <Belugas> mmh... didn't George created a beer factory for hotels?
14:37:34  <Yrol> nah... then the wine tastes like leather. it has to be stomped barefeet
14:38:13  <Yrol> oh. .you meant "booths", not "boots"
14:38:25  <Markk> :D
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14:39:19  <Alberth> could be a nice replacement for a farm
14:39:23  <Markk> :)
14:39:46  <Belugas> ooops... booths
14:39:58  <Belugas> indeed Alberth :)
14:40:26  <Yrol> mmh yes... and sean connery tends to it as a lil tiny stickfigure ( when do we finally get pedestrians in openttd? )
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14:47:01  <Yrol> °waves° thanks for the help, see you...
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14:49:33  <glx> [16:34:17] <@Belugas> my son loves planting trees before placing a station.  I told him it was useless, he does not care ;) <-- it's a good method to make the town happy before building :)
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14:50:13  <Rubidium> Belugas: you still haven't understand that he wants to live in a tree house?
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14:52:07  <Belugas> he has already one, and a huge one that is...
14:52:28  <Belugas> all hand made, with 4"x4" wood beams
14:52:34  <Belugas> spoiled bratt..
14:53:37  <Belugas> glx, can you raise your rating in a town where you ahve not buit anythuing yet?
14:53:43  <Belugas> i'm not sure... i'm really asking
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15:35:11  <Belugas> technical documentation... how much do i love doing that (NOT!)
15:39:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16927 /trunk/src/ (ai/ai_info_dummy.cpp lang/english.txt): -Change: make the 'there is no AI' error message translatable
15:44:41  * planetmaker goes translating the new string :-)
15:55:06  <Liza> meowoyawn :x
15:55:18  <Liza> another day :)
16:06:20  <Belugas> tell me about it :S
16:06:39  <Belugas> ho.. no.. please... don't!
16:07:43  <Sacro>
16:07:45  <Sacro> erm
16:07:48  <Sacro> even
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16:55:52  <fjb_> Belugas: You can.
16:56:06  <frosch123> yes, he can?
16:56:20  <fjb_> Yes.
16:56:53  <fjb_> Moin frosch123, btw.
16:57:09  <frosch123> moin :)
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16:58:42  <Belugas> no i can't
16:58:45  <Belugas> and i wont
17:01:34  <fjb_> You can raise your rating in a town where you have not build anything yet. At least per bribing (if you don't get caught).
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17:05:54  <Chruker> What feature is Zutty using to display the lines on this image:
17:06:48  <glx> he just build lines
17:06:51  <Rubidium> he probably made a lot of signs and then zoomed out very far and then resized
17:07:06  *** OwenSX is now known as OwenS
17:07:15  <glx> ha yes, signs are the other option
17:08:24  <Chruker> argh rats, I thought it was something fancier
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17:24:57  <Nemoder> I'm working on a server mod but I'm a little confused with the code, if I want to do something like SubtractMoneyFromCompany() how do I update clients that this has happened, or is it not possible without altering clients?
17:25:31  <planetmaker> the latter
17:25:35  <Nemoder> :(
17:26:08  <planetmaker> changing gameplay always requires server and client to be of the same version and source base
17:26:41  <Ammler> Alberth: can't we use a special sprite instead of the X for the close issue?
17:26:51  <Ammler> #3033
17:29:51  <Alberth> Euhm, I don't understand that question, isn't the X a sprite? and what is a 'special sprite'?
17:30:50  <Ammler> well, we can't change that "x" but we could make a special "x" for the close
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17:33:47  <Ammler> oh, is it only on old windows systems?
17:33:50  <Rubidium> Alberth: yeah, lets make the close window sprite a special sprite
17:34:53  <Alberth> Ammler: Apparently, we can :)
17:34:55  * planetmaker isn't sure about the readings on the irony detector
17:36:59  * Rubidium proposes string code 0xAD
17:37:25  <planetmaker> :-)
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17:40:24  <planetmaker> Not sure, right now the "x" right from the alphabet is used, Rubidium, Alberth ?
17:41:12  <planetmaker> Excuse my ignorance, how do the other string codes go into a font?
17:42:00  <planetmaker> I guess they just are to be added... like the other symbols... or does OpenTTD define them independent of the font?
17:42:03  <planetmaker> Hm...
17:42:40  <planetmaker>
17:45:21  <Ammler> I guess, it would become a Action5 sprtie
17:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r16928 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by SmatZ
17:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by Yexo
17:46:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 6 changes by agenthh
17:46:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 5 changes by glx
17:46:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:46:37  <Rubidium>,90,143 <- for what it's worth
17:47:09  <planetmaker> :-D
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17:47:45  <planetmaker> hm... I guess that's it then... already... hm... and someone copy&pasted.
17:48:50  <frosch123> turn it into a xp-like big red cross, and i will never consider using opengfx
17:49:03  <planetmaker> he
17:49:49  <Alberth> xX at a sign, at an edit box, and at the close box
17:50:26  <Alberth> (with OpenGFX set)
17:50:32  <frosch123> how could planetmaker confuse "..." with "x" ?
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17:51:00  <Rubidium> Alberth: all those X-es are definitely the same ;)
17:51:14  <Alberth> Yeah, I thought so already :)
17:51:15  <planetmaker> same width
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17:54:11  <planetmaker> uhm... but... the X has the same width as the cross in the window title shown in the bottom of that screenshot of Alberth's
17:55:10  <Alberth> oh noes, somebody made a symmetrical X for the close-cross
17:55:53  <planetmaker> <--- but yeah... one wider than original
17:56:46  <Alberth> svn blame src/widgets/close-cross.png :p
17:58:37  <planetmaker> hm... but using another character than the default x makes sense... you want a cross and not an X :-)
17:59:28  <Ammler> I am fully confused, can't determine, what is fun, what is serious.
17:59:45  * Alberth agrees with planetmaker
18:00:51  <Alberth> Ammler: as far as I can see, there are 3 'x' thingies, the lower case letter, the upper case letter and the closebox cross. see my xxx-enlarged.png
18:01:25  <Ammler> Alberth: those are already in the base grf?
18:01:54  <Ammler> those 3 rubi showed
18:02:23  <Alberth> I hope the former two are in the font that you use.
18:02:25  <planetmaker> Alberth, yes, seems like
18:02:28  <Ammler> so we just have to make the close "x" smaller, right?
18:02:58  <Alberth> that's one of the options I mentioned in 3033, yes
18:03:12  <planetmaker> The "close x" is sprite #153 as Rubi showed
18:03:19  <Ammler> he, well, that should be possible, I thought, it belongs to the font
18:03:24  <planetmaker> s/153/143/
18:04:44  <Ammler> but if we would make it smaller, your new widget windows might look uglier with opengfx?
18:05:17  * Rubidium wonders what's the point in writing Rubi; tab completion gets the whole nick much faster and if you've studied a bit you'd know the proper abbreviation of the word
18:05:25  <planetmaker> Ammler, not really. But it would be a non-symmetrical cross :-)
18:05:51  <Alberth> euh? nested widget windows ask the sprite for its size and adapts to it.
18:06:12  <planetmaker> it would rather solve it when implemented for that widget :-)
18:06:15  <Ammler> we should just try then :-)
18:06:48  <planetmaker> hm, indeed.
18:06:50  <glx> Rubidium: do you hl on Rb ?
18:06:54  <Alberth> you can see that with the currently converted windows that do show the wide X
18:07:10  <Rubidium> glx: no :)
18:09:12  <Rubidium> I haven't been bored/bothered enough to set a highlight on that
18:12:07  <frosch123> it is stupid to highlight on short stuff like e.g. pm :p
18:12:56  <planetmaker> :-)
18:13:02  <Ammler> dunno, if he does, but he should ;-)
18:13:04  <planetmaker> and no, it didn't work here
18:13:15  <Ammler> :-)
18:13:39  <planetmaker> but it's not used as often really... just English time sucks
18:20:22  <Ammler> :-)
18:20:28  <planetmaker> Alberth, is there already a window which is fully converted?
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18:20:36  <planetmaker> maybe the rail toolbar?
18:20:41  <Ammler> is it a copyright violation to use the same x as ttd?
18:20:47  <Alberth> town directory
18:20:51  <Alberth> signal gui
18:21:12  <Alberth> intro-screen :D
18:21:29  <planetmaker> haha :-) Ok. Thanks
18:21:33  <Ammler> no window on the intro?
18:21:54  <Alberth> just for Ammler: s/screen/window/
18:22:27  <Ammler> ?
18:22:47  <planetmaker> Ammler, the main menu has no close box...
18:22:49  <Ammler> can you close the intro-screen :P
18:23:54  <Alberth> yes, there is a big yellow bar at the bottom with 'quit' on it. Strange place for a close button, but he, it works
18:24:06  <planetmaker> :-P
18:24:32  <planetmaker> Actually something I sometimes which for - but not _G_UI related: command+w leaves the current game :-)
18:24:47  <planetmaker> but I guess, if I want that, it's my damn task :-P
18:26:31  <planetmaker> or rather Strg+W on other systems then :-)
18:30:47  <Ammler> ok, I have the X back, shall I commit?
18:31:35  <planetmaker> opengfx?
18:31:52  <Ammler> yes
18:32:17  <planetmaker> I don't mind :-) And yes, looks better, and that's what it is about
18:32:51  <planetmaker> we can still revert it when the GUI is changed completely to the new system :-)
18:33:12  <fjb_> Apropos GUI, is there a way to switch between a fullsreen X11 application and the desktop?
18:33:43  <planetmaker> fjb_, your configured shortcut key...
18:34:26  <fjb_> Now I must find a place where to configure such thing.
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18:37:01  <Rubidium> depending on how the desk is located, a fierce sweeping motion over the desk will bring you from the fullscreen X11 application to the desktop
18:37:02  <planetmaker> the usual thing I do is go to the task bar and choose an empty desktop :-)
18:38:17  <fjb_> Rubidium: My desk is way too cluttered. :-)
18:38:56  <fjb_> Usual full screen applications don't show a task bar.
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18:40:00  <planetmaker> fjb_, my task bar becomes visible, if I approach the lower screen border...
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18:42:39  <fjb_> Some games catch that event (flight simutaors and such).
18:43:23  <planetmaker> right. I guess these things are excluded on workplace PCs :-)
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18:46:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r16929 /trunk/src/engine.cpp: -Change: There is no point in not randomising engine introduction-date before 1922. Instead disable the randomisation for the first two years after game-start, so you do not have to wait for the first engine.
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19:32:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r16930 /trunk/src/ (68 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: more StringID name unification and grouping
19:40:36  <Belugas> hhoooo.... who remembers the very first mp3 song they downloaded ?
19:41:03  <Belugas> mine was a rammstein song, with napster
19:41:55  <OwenS> Ooh thats a good one. I don't know
19:41:55  <Alberth> I remember not downloading any mp3 song
19:42:14  <OwenS> I'd hazard a guess of it being Eiffel 65's Blue though, judging by how long ago it would be
19:42:52  <Belugas> Alberth, i always buy records of the artitsts that really turn me on.  Got a big pile of cds at home...
19:43:52  <Belugas> OwenS, got me on unknown grounds
19:45:32  <OwenS> Huh?
19:47:47  <Belugas> Eiffel 65 is not within my music scope
19:47:51  <Belugas> like...
19:47:56  <Belugas> no idea what it is
19:48:43  <OwenS> 'Eiffel 65 was a Grammy-nominated Italian electronic dance three-piece group, formed in the late 1990s and best known for their international hit "Blue (Da Ba Dee)". Their other hit singles include "Move Your Body" and "Too Much of Heaven"' (Wikipedia)
19:49:33  <OwenS> Not too much to my liking these days... My tastes have changed
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19:55:39  <Belugas> they all do :)
19:55:45  <Belugas> so do mine
19:56:02  <Belugas> somehow, Slayer is not as appealing as it was back then ^_^
19:56:45  <Pygma> Oh Blue, I remember that
19:56:53  <Pygma> Though no idea what my first download was
19:57:33  <glx> OwenS: too bad now I have the song in my head
19:59:46  <OwenS> glx: Solution is to play music :P
20:01:17  <Alberth> typically another song than the one in your head :p
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20:01:45  <Belugas> play music!!  Yeah !! Good idea!!!
20:01:53  <Belugas> let's go home and grab a guit!!!!
20:02:10  <Belugas> or a synht or a sax or a flute or whatever
20:06:12  <OwenS> I should have said listen to music :p
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20:10:06  <Belugas> gnegnegne...  you said PLAY!!
20:10:11  <Belugas> i like to PLAY
20:10:15  <Belugas> toum te doum
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20:56:21  <fonsinchen> what happened to Station::IsBuoy()?
20:56:30  <fonsinchen> is there a replacement somewhere?
20:57:19  <planetmaker> waypoint
20:58:22  <fonsinchen> lots of changes there lately ...
20:59:23  <planetmaker>
21:01:44  <fonsinchen> that's not the one removing Station::IsBuoy(), but thanks ...
21:05:20  <Liza> fonsinchen, typo, Station::IsBoy()
21:05:44  <fonsinchen> Liza, please ...
21:05:51  <Liza> hm?
21:06:06  <SmatZ> :-p
21:06:11  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
21:06:12  <SmatZ> :)
21:06:14  <fonsinchen> So if an order has OT_GOTO_STATION I can be sure that it's no buoy now, correct?
21:06:29  <SmatZ> yes
21:07:39  *** Azrael- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:11:32  <planetmaker> <-- sorry, was this revision @ fonsinchen
21:13:29  <fonsinchen> and if (st->facilities & FACIL_WAYPOINT) == 0) I can be sure a BaseStation st is a real station, correct?
21:13:51  *** DephNet[Paul] [] has joined #openttd
21:16:10  <planetmaker> sounds reasonable,
21:16:50  <fonsinchen> thanks
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21:50:44  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
21:50:52  <PeterT> hi
21:51:07  <Nite_Owl> Hello PeterT
21:51:35  <PeterT> did i post this correctly?
21:52:19  <PeterT> Anyone?
21:53:16  <glx> missing crash.log and crash.dmp
21:54:39  <PeterT> where can i get that?
21:54:51  <glx> in install dir
21:55:22  <PeterT> can i edit that?
21:55:27  <PeterT> the log i sent
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21:56:00  <Nite_Owl> easier to just attach the files
21:56:12  <PeterT> yes, edit it, and attach it
21:56:26  <PeterT> i just re installed, lets see if it still does it
21:56:29  <glx> you can't edit, but you can attach in a comment
21:59:15  <PeterT> there ya go
21:59:18  <PeterT>
22:00:49  <PeterT> better?
22:01:07  <PeterT> going to sleep, there is your crash report
22:01:09  *** PeterT [~Peter@] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:01:38  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r16931 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup (r16922): one semicolon too much
22:03:04  <OwenS> "C:\Windows\system32\avgrsstx.dll handle: 6C1B0000 size: 11952 crc: FEFAE0A9 date: 2009-07-11 16:36:26" <- Why do I think OpenTTD didn't load that?
22:04:58  <SmatZ> why should it?
22:05:12  <SmatZ> is that some antivirus library?
22:06:06  <OwenS> AVG8 apparently injects it into every process
22:06:07  <glx> it is, but the log shows all loaded modules IIRC
22:07:43  <OwenS> In other words theres foreign code you can't look at inside your process. Sigh.
22:08:10  <glx> well you can't look in windows dll either by default
22:08:15  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: you're better of using Station::IsExpected(<base station>)
22:08:21  *** KUDr [] has joined #openttd
22:08:34  <fonsinchen> for what?
22:08:44  <fonsinchen> ah
22:08:54  <Rubidium> to check whether it's a real station
22:09:18  <OwenS> glx: MS will give you full debug symbols. AVG? I doubt it
22:09:40  <glx> anyway the crash is not in avg ;)
22:09:57  <fonsinchen> nice, thanks
22:10:03  <Xaroth> the address points to the ottd executable
22:10:21  <glx> it's an assert in ottd as said in the log
22:10:41  <OwenS> And wheres your proof there isn't a pointer bug inside the AVG executable corrupting RAM?
22:11:00  <Xaroth> C0000005 at 0040DA6A
22:11:01  <Xaroth> openttd.exe handle: 00400000 size: 2630656
22:11:22  <Xaroth> I have a hunch that 00400000 + 2630656 < 0040DA6A
22:11:49  <OwenS> It's probably not, but it's still annoying when code is injected into you without warning. At least when it's analyzing you from another process bugs have a harder time trashing your RAM
22:12:00  *** DephNet[Paul] [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
22:12:14  <Rubidium> AVG probably gets loaded because it's loaded into some core Windows dll
22:12:36  <Nite_Owl> AVG 8 has a tendency to do that
22:12:51  <OwenS> No, they're injecting the DLL from their own process
22:12:55  *** DephNet[Paul] [] has joined #openttd
22:12:57  <Xaroth> I think that's the whole concept of anti virus ...
22:13:17  *** fonsinchen [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:14:10  <OwenS> Most AV software scans you from it's own process
22:14:50  <Xaroth> Things are more accessible if you're inside of it ;)
22:15:18  <glx> I hate when pointers are involved
22:15:25  <glx> I cannot get any info
22:15:42  <Nite_Owl> AVG 8 and Symantec/Norton tend to be a lot more intrusive into your system then others
22:16:42  <glx> norton is worse
22:16:45  <OwenS> Couldn't OpenTTD be built so on a crash it calls the minidump writer code?
22:17:14  <glx> OwenS: it does, nut we don't dump the ram
22:17:17  *** Yexo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:17:26  <Nite_Owl> they stick their anti-virus tendrils into all sorts of places that are not necessary
22:17:33  <glx> dmp would be too big
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22:19:43  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: there is a fly ON my screen!!!!
22:19:58  <TrueBrain> (oeh, that is just mean)
22:19:58  <Eddi|zuHause> yay for you :p
22:20:23  <Eddi|zuHause> did you try hunting it with your mouse?
22:20:35  <TrueBrain> haha, he didn't like that :p
22:23:53  <Nite_Owl> Use you chopsticks Mr. Muyaki
22:23:58  <Nite_Owl> *your
22:24:14  * OwenS wonders how the x86 jit is coming
22:25:48  <Nite_Owl> Hmmm - maybe that was a bit too obscure (as usual)
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22:26:21  <TrueBrain> OwenS: _very_ good
22:26:28  <TrueBrain> I saw the WestWood logo today :)
22:26:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r16932 /trunk/src/lang/ (51 files in 2 dirs):
22:26:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
22:26:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: all languages - update for latest commits which moved around lots of strings
22:26:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 5 changes by Yexo
22:26:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 1 changes by CyberKenny
22:26:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 1 changes by kkmic
22:26:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
22:26:44  <OwenS> :D
22:26:53  <OwenS> I haven't seen that in a while thinking about it
22:27:03  <TrueBrain> I now only figured out it has a custom INT8
22:27:16  <TrueBrain> (dune2 sets all INT via INT21 call, but INT8 it writes directly in the IVT/IDT)
22:27:26  <OwenS> heh lol
22:27:29  <TrueBrain> and somehow it breaks ... dunno why :(
22:27:52  <TrueBrain> but anyway, I solved all my overlay problems by simply calculating a XOR CRC of the code I was about to execute, and match it :)
22:27:57  <TrueBrain> works PERFECT :)
22:28:14  <OwenS> At this point I'm wondering if it would have been easier for you to just bung in the Bochs BIOS code and emulate the hardware :p
22:28:36  <TrueBrain> considered it, well, DosBox in this case (as it contains the DOS stuff too)
22:28:52  <OwenS> I suppose in this case DosBox yes :p
22:28:54  <TrueBrain> but the DosBox code SUCKS ASS!!!!!!
22:29:04  <TrueBrain> one line they write 0xb7, the next 0xB7
22:29:14  <TrueBrain> and that is just the start of the uglyness they call code :s
22:29:25  <OwenS> lol
22:29:33  <Rubidium> be happy the don't mix 100 and 099 ;)
22:29:38  <TrueBrain> really, it is a disaster to read their code
22:29:47  <Rubidium> hmm, rather 077 ;)
22:29:56  <OwenS> I'm personally partial to 0xB7 style
22:30:06  <TrueBrain> I use that myself too
22:30:09  <TrueBrain> but I don't care what you do
22:30:21  <TrueBrain> just .. 1 style
22:30:22  <TrueBrain> readable code :s
22:30:41  <Rubidium> I don't think OpenTTD's style is uniform either
22:30:42  <OwenS> And make it so a tidier works fine on it if your style doesn't match mine closely =P
22:31:27  *** goodger [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:31:31  <Rubidium> oh, I'm certain OpenTTD's style isn't uniform
22:32:22  <TrueBrain> but okay, I can look past poorly written code
22:32:24  <TrueBrain> it is .. acceptable
22:32:28  <TrueBrain> that you use in one case << 4
22:32:30  <TrueBrain> and in the other * 16
22:32:32  <TrueBrain> I can live with that
22:32:45  <TrueBrain> then I hopen a file, and I read:
22:32:47  <TrueBrain> #define VGAREG_SEQU_DATA               0x3c5
22:32:48  <TrueBrain> so I think, wow, useful
22:32:55  <TrueBrain> lets look in the code for VGAREG_SEQU_DATA
22:33:01  <TrueBrain> nowhere to be found
22:33:04  <OwenS> lol
22:33:07  <TrueBrain> everywhere they use HARDCODED values again
22:33:12  <TrueBrain> grr
22:33:38  <TrueBrain> but well, okay, maybe they are in the middle of going from one method to the other
22:33:39  <TrueBrain> fine fine
22:33:59  <TrueBrain> absolute lack of spaces .. fine .. k&r has that too
22:34:05  *** KUDr [] has quit []
22:34:22  <TrueBrain>  val=((val >> vga.config.data_rotate) | (val << (8-vga.config.data_rotate)));
22:34:30  <TrueBrain> then I start to wonder what I am reading .. but okay ... possible
22:35:34  <OwenS> I'm surprised I actually understand what VGA component they're implementing there
22:35:55  <TrueBrain> IO_Write(0x3ce,0x8);Bit8u mask=128>>(x&7);IO_Write(0x3cf,mask);
22:36:00  <TrueBrain> but those lines .. those lines just do it for me
22:36:13  <TrueBrain> in reality the IO_Write just calls a function which puts something (well, those 2 combined) in a struct they keep
22:36:19  <Eddi|zuHause> that looks funny ;)
22:36:20  <TrueBrain> it is such a FUCKED UP way of doing it
22:36:28  <TrueBrain> unreadable, and COMPLETELY unclear what the fuck is going on
22:36:33  <TrueBrain> 0x8 ... yeah ... that ... sure ...
22:36:52  <TrueBrain> so DosBox, great code, I am VERY happy they created it
22:36:56  <TrueBrain> codewise ..... not so much
22:37:10  <OwenS> Perhaps look at DosEmu?
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22:40:26  <TrueBrain> hmm .. nice .. tnx OwenS :)
22:40:27  <OwenS> DosEmu > DosBox in the case you're running on i386 (On anything else, inc x86_64, you don't have v8086 mode and thats a moto point)
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22:40:51  <TrueBrain> I didn't understand what you were trying to say
22:40:52  <TrueBrain> but good for you :p
22:41:49  <Liza> but does it have c64 mode?
22:42:03  <TrueBrain> oh my .. it is still here :S
22:42:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i tried DosEmu once, but it didn't work very well...
22:42:18  <Liza> oh, you don't want me here...
22:42:28  <Liza> ;_;
22:42:32  *** Liza [] has quit []
22:42:33  <OwenS> DosEmu uses the "v8086" processor mode to emulate stuff. This only works in protected (not long) mode
22:42:51  <TrueBrain> ah, so not on my CPU :p
22:42:59  <Eddi|zuHause> so... i finished watching firefly, what is there left to do now in this world?
22:43:10  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: good serie .. good serie
22:43:12  <OwenS> It works on 64-bit processors with an i386 os :p
22:43:16  <OwenS> Agreed on that
22:43:21  <OwenS> And, Eddi|zuHause, Serenity? :p
22:43:25  <TrueBrain> OwenS: true .. so not working here ;)
22:43:32  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, of course...
22:43:39  <TrueBrain> Serentiy is just a double episode :p
22:44:27  <TrueBrain> bah, dosemu has stuff in asm
22:44:29  <TrueBrain> harder to read
22:44:31  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: watch 'Dead like me'?
22:44:44  <OwenS> Serenity is good though. I have it on BluRay =)
22:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> already done that...
22:45:18  <Eddi|zuHause> but didn't they want to do a film about that, too?
22:45:27  <TrueBrain> movie sucks
22:45:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i have never seen that one...
22:45:30  <TrueBrain> nothing ... interesting
22:47:33  <TrueBrain> I btw love the logo of DOSBox :p
22:48:10  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: watch the full 'series' of "As the world turns" and "The bold and the beautiful"
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22:48:43  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure i know these...
22:48:51  <Xaroth> I doubt you want to know those
22:48:53  <TrueBrain> LOL!
22:48:55  <TrueBrain> SOAPS!!!! :)
22:49:01  <Rubidium> well, it's 'only' 19.000 episodes
22:49:03  <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause: Try "Goede tijden, slechte tijden" .
22:50:01  <OwenS> It's beaten by the american "Guiding Light", the world's single longest narritive, which predates the TV, and which comes to an end in September, adding an element of slight doability to it
22:50:08  <OwenS> (Well, would be doable if all the epsiodes existed)
22:50:26  <dihedral> @seen Yex*
22:50:26  <DorpsGek> dihedral: Yex* could be Yexo (1 day, 1 hour, 41 minutes, and 59 seconds ago) or Yexo_ (3 weeks, 6 days, 11 hours, 21 minutes, and 48 seconds ago)
22:51:08  <OwenS> Theres also a webcomic somewhere with an episode for every day in since 9999BC
22:51:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i was thinking of doctor who, which also must be like 700 episodes... but i didn't find a full pack anywhere ;)
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22:51:40  <TrueBrain> dihedral: go to bed :p
22:52:42  <OwenS> Baah. Dr Who isn't proper sci-fi :p
22:52:48  <Nite_Owl> Have you ever seen the very early Doctor Who episodes?
22:53:00  <OwenS> You mean the edutainment ones?
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22:53:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think they were ever shown in germany
22:53:30  <Nite_Owl> When the Doctor was a Grandfather traveling around with his Granddaughter
22:53:35  <OwenS> For British Sci-Fi... nothing beats Red Dwar
22:53:36  <OwenS> f
22:54:01  <Eddi|zuHause> the sad thing is... there is only one german sci-fi series...
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22:55:29  <OwenS> Red Dwarf and Dr Who are the only Brit Sci-Fi series I know... The first is a sitcom and the second so soft it makes Star Wars look like rock
22:55:43  <TrueBrain> OwenS: dosemu has less comments, so I guess dosbox is more useful after all .. oh well :) Tomorrow I have a nice 'find the bug' day ... guess I will write a test-platform which tests all the opcodes (if they are decoded correctly, and execute correctly :p) .. never tested that :) Today I found out the documentation I used mixed loopnz and loopz ... oopsie! :p
22:55:48  <Nite_Owl> The actor playing The Doctor in the original episodes was really bad in a physically hammy sort of way
22:56:05  *** DephNet[Paul] [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
22:56:06  <Rubidium> OwenS: it's still better sci-fi than no sci-fi
22:56:11  <Nite_Owl> sort of like a silent film actor
22:56:11  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Ouch
22:57:05  <TrueBrain> OwenS: and I need to find out when INT8 is called, what is on the stack as 'cs:ip' pair :p
22:57:20  <Nite_Owl> they ran them once as a marathon many moons ago here in the US
22:58:15  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Generally it would be on the stack, or do you mean the code to vector to?
22:58:28  <TrueBrain> I mean the content of those 2 values :p
22:58:39  <OwenS> So the ones for the interrupt handler
22:58:49  <TrueBrain> (when calling an INT, it pushes flags, cs and ip on the stack .. but INT8 comes from inside the system, so what does he push on it?)
22:59:04  <TrueBrain> when the app does an INT it is obvious
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22:59:21  <OwenS> Ooh of course... Int 8 will be a hardware interrupt
22:59:27  <TrueBrain> yup
22:59:29  <TrueBrain> timer
22:59:38  <TrueBrain> (sorry, I considered that obvious, but it of course is not :))
22:59:46  <Nite_Owl> Need to feed - later all
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22:59:57  <OwenS> Sorry; I'm used to protected mode/etc where int0-31 are reserved =P
23:00:06  <OwenS> It will push whatever the code is executing when the timer interrupt fires... aka it's random :p
23:00:26  <TrueBrain> yeah, but I tihnk Dune2 uses the CS part to see what overlay it is executing or something
23:00:32  <TrueBrain> not sure yet .. something fishy is going on there :p
23:00:37  <OwenS> So... In other words... you need to reverse engineer CS:IP from the running code :P
23:00:51  <TrueBrain> I do that all over the place .. well .. good estimates anyway :p
23:02:56  <OwenS> I've been diagramming my processor... well, some parts end up quite messy =P:
23:03:36  <TrueBrain> pdf .. do you have any idea the troubles I need to go through to just open that document?
23:04:11  <Rubidium> go to your neighbour?
23:04:17  <OwenS> No. On Windows I'd understand the Adobe Reader hatred... but Linux? Okular and Evince work
23:04:29  <OwenS> Would you prefer an ODG? :p
23:04:50  <TrueBrain> OwenS: it is more like: download file, start kpdf (means starting KDE background shit)
23:04:58  *** paul__ [] has joined #openttd
23:05:02  <TrueBrain> but mostly the part I need to find a tmp folder again
23:05:09  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: then use xpdf ;)
23:05:14  <OwenS> Aah. I run KDE4 all the time so...
23:05:58  <TrueBrain> looks easy enough, your PDF :P
23:06:30  <OwenS> I haven't finished the microcode yet, so I probably have a few more lines to shove in :p
23:06:46  <TrueBrain> I remember my final design of something simular ...
23:07:01  <TrueBrain> I also remember that I forgot a bus between C and the ALU ...
23:07:09  <OwenS> Heh
23:07:15  <TrueBrain> which didn't allow me to do one microcode in the time I would want it to run
23:07:20  <OwenS> Crap so did I! :p
23:07:34  <OwenS> Carry should go into the C bus just to be more confusing...
23:07:44  <TrueBrain> so it took 2 cycles more .. but worse: I had to use 7 bits for line indication of the microcode :(
23:07:44  *** Azrael- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:07:53  <TrueBrain> hehehe :) Glad to be of some help ;)
23:08:10  <TrueBrain> (going from 6 bits to 7 bits for just 1 microcode SUCKS!)
23:08:16  <OwenS> Incidentally, my ALU has 3 output busses
23:08:17  <TrueBrain> solved it by removed the HALT command .. haha :)
23:08:48  <TrueBrain> (my english sucks)
23:08:57  *** paul__ [] has quit []
23:09:02  <TrueBrain> OwenS: what will your CPU do?
23:09:28  <OwenS> 32-bit pipelined in-order RISC; nothing special other than built in fixed point primitives
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23:09:51  <TrueBrain> you going to build it too, or just program it?
23:10:02  <OwenS> Verilog, then FPGA
23:11:02  <OwenS> Theres probably more complexity to go on that diagram yet for interlocks...
23:11:31  <TrueBrain> on the list, thngs you want to avoid, number N .. :p
23:11:32  *** paul_ [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
23:11:41  <TrueBrain> I love how I solved FPU opcodes ...
23:11:47  <TrueBrain> NoSuchOpcode
23:11:48  <TrueBrain> WHOHO! :)
23:11:51  <OwenS> lool same
23:11:58  <OwenS> I'm reserving opcode space for them
23:12:13  <OwenS> Just like I'm reserving space for DIV
23:12:16  <TrueBrain> FPU .. the most worthless piece of shit in your whole computer :p Mwhahahaha :)
23:12:39  <TrueBrain> (design-wise, that is)
23:12:40  <OwenS> Though I may actually manage to microprogram a slow multicycle DIV with a little bit of complexity
23:12:43  <Rubidium> tss... TrueBrain that's lame; just tranform the FPU opcodes into INT opcodes and say the point floated away
23:13:13  <TrueBrain> OwenS: 8086 takes .. what .. 60 cycles to do DIV? :p
23:13:37  <TrueBrain> OwenS: be careful, microcode is expensive :)
23:14:17  <OwenS> TrueBrain: On an FPGA, I can just use a 512x36 dual port blockram as a 256x72 :P
23:14:29  <OwenS> I think mine actually take longer, simply because the pipeline implies lots of stalls waiting for results :P
23:14:39  <TrueBrain> either way .. today I build 3 boulders .. needless to say, I am going to find my bed :)
23:14:53  <TrueBrain> OwenS: that of course is always an option ;)
23:15:22  <OwenS> I currently have no plans for an update microcode instruction though =)
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23:15:32  <TrueBrain> reflash it? :p
23:15:37  <OwenS> Pretty much :P
23:15:51  <TrueBrain> nice security risk
23:16:03  <TrueBrain> an opcode which reads a piece of ram for its new microcode
23:16:04  <TrueBrain> heheheh
23:16:10  <OwenS> Not really if it's privileged
23:16:14  <OwenS> x86 has updatable microcode
23:16:30  <TrueBrain> yeah, by manual override
23:16:38  <TrueBrain> not possible via software ports (not alone, anyway)
23:16:51  <OwenS> It is. Linux does it for Intel and AMD CPUs at boot if their microcode is out of date
23:17:00  <TrueBrain> REALLY?!
23:17:00  <OwenS> They store microcode in RAM though, so it doesn't last
23:17:13  <TrueBrain> as then I can fuck up a computer REALLY easy
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23:17:17  <TrueBrain> for ever!!!! :p
23:17:23  <TrueBrain> plug in USB, boot
23:17:25  <TrueBrain> lalalala
23:17:28  <OwenS> Copy from masked ROM at startup
23:17:36  <TrueBrain> fair enough ;)
23:17:41  <TrueBrain> so not really updatable
23:17:46  <TrueBrain> just temporary possible to override :p
23:17:51  <OwenS> Yeah. To fix bugs :P
23:17:58  <TrueBrain> (update suggest permanent :p)
23:18:06  <TrueBrain> hot-fix ;)
23:18:38  <OwenS> Not surprising considering microcode is code (has bugs), written in an assembler (more bugs) which is horrible to work with (even more) :P
23:18:47  <TrueBrain> written in asm?
23:18:51  <TrueBrain> I had to do it on a whole other level :p
23:19:08  <OwenS> Written in microassembler ;-)
23:19:10  <TrueBrain> but yeah, it has bugs :p
23:19:36  <TrueBrain> I had 64bit per instruction I believe ... I still shiffer by the idea
23:19:41  <TrueBrain> no idea how I ever managed to program that bitch :p
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23:19:59  <OwenS> I think I'll have the same. Thats why I'm gonna be hugging my microassembler :p
23:20:15  <TrueBrain> I had to write bits .....
23:20:27  <TrueBrain> still, besides a few ops, it worked flawless :p
23:20:56  <OwenS> I may, to add fun, add a 16-bit "compressed code" mode like ARM Thumb :P
23:20:56  <TrueBrain> anyway ... going to bed ... my eyes are shutting already :)
23:21:00  <OwenS> Heh
23:21:02  <OwenS> Night
23:21:03  <TrueBrain> sorry OwenS, I enjoy this conversation :)
23:21:09  <TrueBrain> but .. well ... :)
23:21:15  <OwenS> :-)
23:21:31  <TrueBrain> enjoy your fun .. tomorrow I am going to enjoy mine again :)
23:21:50  <TrueBrain> Hope I can get this INT8 going correctly .... means Dune2 is almost playable :p :p (haha, like if :))
23:21:51  <Xaroth> nn TB
23:21:57  <Xaroth> ooo
23:21:58  <Xaroth> Dune
23:22:11  * Xaroth can't wait for OpenDune tbqfh.
23:22:21  <TrueBrain> haha :)
23:22:39  <TrueBrain> who knows .... if I ever can find enough time, and figure out the legal status of such work based on decompiled code ... ;)
23:23:04  <TrueBrain> (well, the Dutch law is very clear on the subject ... which isn't really helping :p)
23:23:39  <TrueBrain> oh, need sleep .. night! :)
23:24:24  <Xaroth> isn't it possible to make a .. 'clone' ? :P
23:24:30  <Xaroth> but good point, nn :)
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23:25:01  <Xaroth> (I'd even be tempted to learn C/C++ if it concerned making a dune game :P )
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