Log for #openttd on 31st July 2009:
Times are UTC Toggle Colours
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00:01:01  <OwenS> It takes a goods train 126 days per direction :p
00:01:07  <Rubidium> ~25% of that bandwidth if bananas (over 190 days)
00:01:34  <Rubidium> which includes a long time where bananas didn't exist yet
00:02:17  <OwenS> @calc 365/(2*126)
00:02:17  <DorpsGek> OwenS: 1.44841269841
00:02:28  <OwenS> So one of said goods trains does one and a half deliveries a year
00:02:43  <OwenS> Hmm... Whats that thing people call realism? :P
00:03:19  <Rubidium> unreal
00:04:00  <OwenS> I think the realism stopped... about the time we got stations bigger than the towns they service
00:04:20  <Rubidium> I think realism never started
00:04:51  <keoz> realism is like a limit in a function, to which we should tend, even if we know it is unreachable
00:05:11  <Rubidium> and I'm not going to react for a while as I'm going to bed; I wonder if Belugas likes that kind of realism
00:05:36  <OwenS> TTD on a more realistic scale would be interesting though
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01:27:39  <Eddi|zuHause> i think i'm going to kill those people at seagate who sent me this hard drive...
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01:28:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and (unrelated) how can one screw up his kernel installation so it says "unknown file system: ext3"?
01:36:21  <Sacro> `hahahah
01:36:30  <Sacro> mkinitcpio borked?
01:36:33  <Sacro> missing modules?
01:42:40  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the modules were missing
01:43:15  <Eddi|zuHause> but try to get the kernel installed again when you cannot mount /boot, and don't have the exact .rpm that was installed there :p
01:46:10  <Sacro> but fucked there then
01:46:12  <Sacro> *bit
01:50:09  <Eddi|zuHause> well, i managed to install the .rpm that i had, and then got grub to boot from the / partition
01:50:16  <Eddi|zuHause> which wasn't that easy either
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01:50:41  <Eddi|zuHause> and then roleback of all the other changes that i tried to solve the problem with
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01:51:14  <kodmaster> !help
01:51:14  *** kodmaster was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
01:51:43  <Priski> hehe
01:51:56  <Priski> those are too common here?
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01:52:34  <Sacro> not that commmon
01:55:13  <Eddi|zuHause> especially !password started to get annoying
01:56:05  <Sacro> Yeah that one did
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09:26:09  <TrueBrain> morning all
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09:28:13  <Rubidium> hai
09:29:36  <TrueBrain> we had this class and exam for which ALL people failed
09:29:49  <TrueBrain> now the professor tries to correct that problem, by giving more material
09:29:51  <TrueBrain> even more unreadable
09:30:03  <TrueBrain> when will this person understand that what he tells us, is not understandable ?
09:30:33  <Rubidium> I think that's something he does not understand
09:31:39  <TrueBrain> he promised the head of the dep that he would do more his best in giving more detail .. he just gave the answers to the last test .. yeah .. that might work .. NOT
09:32:01  <Rubidium> if the next exam uses the exact same test, then it might
09:32:14  <TrueBrain> even then, I am unsure I will have everything correct :p
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10:42:57  <planetmaker> moin moin
10:45:00  <TrueBrain> it is a planetmaker!
10:45:04  <TrueBrain> I wonder if tdev had any time today
10:45:24  <tdev> hey TrueBrain :D
10:45:29  <tdev> im all yours ;)
10:45:39  <TrueBrain>
10:53:24  <planetmaker> haha :-) selling oneself to slave labour ;-)
10:54:15  <TrueBrain> ghehe :)
10:56:19  <Noldo> Would it be possible that someone would use some other language as the main language
10:56:34  <TrueBrain> lol
10:56:43  <TrueBrain> that is the strangest question ever, I believe :)
10:56:47  <TrueBrain> what do you mean exactly Noldo? :)
10:57:02  <Noldo> in the WebTranslator I mean
10:57:10  <Noldo> "Automatic mark strings as 'suspicious' when English changes"
10:57:22  <TrueBrain> Noldo: still I don't get it ;)
10:57:31  <Noldo> that was the line that triggered the question
10:57:45  <TrueBrain> oh, s/English/main language/
10:57:56  <Noldo> yes
10:58:12  <TrueBrain> base language, in fact
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10:58:53  <Noldo> so is it possible to use something other that english?
10:59:14  <planetmaker> Noldo, you can - as project leader - define your "main language"
10:59:36  <planetmaker> All translations though, orient themselves on that language. And markings only depend upon changes in the "main language"
10:59:47  <planetmaker> (if I understood it right :-) )
11:03:16  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: you did
11:03:30  <TrueBrain> nowhere in the code is ever defined which language is the base language
11:03:47  <planetmaker> it's just a filename, I guess :-)
11:03:58  <TrueBrain> depends :)
11:04:04  <TrueBrain> gettext has the base language in every file
11:04:07  <planetmaker> he :-)
11:04:11  <TrueBrain> where OpenTTD has it in a single file once
11:04:14  <TrueBrain> (and uses keys)
11:04:33  <TrueBrain> NewGRF has another way
11:04:39  <TrueBrain> so it is not that simple ;)
11:05:16  <planetmaker> You plan to translate NewGRF with wt3?
11:05:26  <TrueBrain> well, plan is a big word
11:05:29  <TrueBrain> but it will be capable
11:05:39  <TrueBrain> (if someone would write the in/out related to it)
11:06:11  <planetmaker> Hm... would be interesting.
11:06:24  <TrueBrain> what I read on it, it just works like: name.grf and name_trans.grf
11:06:25  <planetmaker> My current newgrf projects have a separate file for each language
11:06:29  <TrueBrain> where the latter can do all the translations for the first
11:06:35  <planetmaker> but not each string needs translation.
11:06:41  <planetmaker> Having a web interface for that would rock
11:07:18  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I see no reason why WT3.1 wouldn't be able to support it
11:07:33  <planetmaker> hm... that's definitely then something to try.
11:07:40  <planetmaker> WT3.1 service at the devzone :-)
11:07:55  <TrueBrain> someone only has to explain to me in details what needs to be done :)
11:07:56  <planetmaker> Another incentive to host repositories there :-P
11:08:08  <TrueBrain> but as this plugin system allows that later, it will be done later ;)
11:08:11  <planetmaker> That I can do, I think.
11:08:28  <planetmaker> Reasonable nfo structure given, the string handling in nfo isn't difficult at all.
11:09:20  <planetmaker> <-- like that it's already quite easy
11:09:41  <TrueBrain> does NewGRF have all languages OpenTTD has?
11:10:02  <planetmaker> hm... I guess not all.
11:10:04  <planetmaker> But most
11:10:18  <TrueBrain> well, that is something that should be fixed
11:10:28  <TrueBrain> and some kind of standard should be created for this
11:10:32  <planetmaker> easily done. Pro'ly just needs defining in the specs.
11:10:36  <planetmaker> e.g. updating the wiki
11:10:49  <TrueBrain> like in the link you just gave, are comments
11:10:53  <planetmaker>
11:11:00  <TrueBrain> either those need to made some kind of standard
11:11:05  <TrueBrain> or it should work directly on .grf files
11:11:28  <TrueBrain> list seems up-to-date :)
11:11:31  <planetmaker> yes. The link I gave is not pure NFO. It's processed by a makefile into nfo
11:11:47  <planetmaker> e.g. replacing the stringIDs etc
11:11:47  <TrueBrain> but okay, lets do that after I have a working system ;)
11:11:56  <planetmaker> he, indeed :-)
11:12:26  <TrueBrain> today I will be extending the script, api, and plugin system a bit
11:12:36  <TrueBrain> after which I should be able to start working on OpenTTD language files ..
11:13:02  <planetmaker> :-)
11:13:23  <TrueBrain> Noldo: if you have any other questions, please let me know :)
11:18:26  * Ammler still thinks, the langaug
11:18:29  <Ammler> m?h
11:18:46  <Ammler> just ignore me :-)
11:18:46  <planetmaker> muh
11:19:36  <Ammler> why is backspace that close to the enter key?
11:25:03  <TrueBrain> because you should just speak your mind
11:25:07  <TrueBrain> it wants you to know that :)
11:25:42  <Rubidium> planetmaker: name me one (official) OpenTTD language that isn't supported by NewGRF
11:27:57  <Ammler> 2nd try; /me thinks, the language files should be distributed seperately, possible with bananas, isn't?
11:28:18  <Rubidium> did write something down a while ago for Miham IIRC about NewGRF translations:
11:29:20  <planetmaker> Rubidium, I guess I cannot. I just wasn't sure that all official OpenTTD languages have found already their way into the NewGRF specs
11:29:36  <planetmaker> That's why I phrased it more cautiously. :-) A look at that page told me different
11:30:10  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I tend to agree with you on that, as mostly it doesn't require permission of the original author
11:30:24  <Ammler> "We should use FF for the default English strings. That way that string is always used as "catch all" string. It needs to be the first string, otherwise it overrides all" <-- still valid?
11:30:31  <Rubidium> <- I like the laziness of the OpenGFX authors ;)
11:30:52  <Ammler> specially the "needs to be first"
11:31:11  <Ammler> because then pm needs to resort ;-)
11:31:45  <Rubidium> planetmaker: OpenTTD has the GRF ID language ID for the language in the language files
11:32:03  <Ammler> TrueBrain: yes, specially CC-ND grfs
11:32:12  <planetmaker> Rubidium, right :-) I wasn't aware that it's 100% the same
11:32:21  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: do you agree on what Ammler says?
11:32:23  <Ammler> but also the openttd core translations.
11:33:08  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: if it's silence I have to agree on, then yes
11:33:15  <planetmaker> btw, I try with the translation possibilities for the NewGRFs which use "my" makefile the same: a file which defines the langID in the header and the the STRING_ID follows with a translation, one each line
11:33:21  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: fair enough:
11:33:23  <TrueBrain> [13:27] <Ammler> 2nd try; /me thinks, the language files should be distributed seperately, possible with bananas, isn't?
11:33:47  <Rubidium> what language files is he talking about?
11:33:55  <TrueBrain> newgrf .. like what we are talking about
11:34:16  <planetmaker> I wished there were means to not blow up the newgrf size by all translations, but make them external...
11:34:17  <TrueBrain> dunno where I read it yesterday, but as I said before: name.grf and name_trans.grf
11:34:20  <TrueBrain> the latter with translations
11:34:40  <planetmaker> hm... maybe there is means by add-on newgrf. But... can that then be used in a network game when the server hasn't that newgrf?
11:34:40  <Ammler> TrueBrain: you mean one grf for ALL translations?
11:34:51  <TrueBrain> Ammler: that is what the TTDp website suggests, yes
11:35:09  <Ammler> ah, I thought about name_de.grf
11:35:13  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: static newgrfs? (I don't know, I know almost nothing about grfs)
11:35:26  <Rubidium> I'd personally go for: "no", but that is 'only' because NewGRFs (e.g. name.grf) change over time adding/removing features (i.e. changing StringIDs), making the translation sound like gibberish
11:35:51  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: true; but if you split it, you don't need permission of the original author ;)
11:36:01  <Ammler> to make the tanslation universal, you should use the grf direclty as base.
11:36:21  <Ammler> decode->translate encode a new file
11:36:25  <planetmaker> Rubidium, that could be helped by querying the newgrf to be translated.
11:36:34  <planetmaker> and de-activation, if the version doesn't match
11:36:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: what part of the NewGRF do you intend to query?
11:37:21  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: true, but I think that totally wrong translations are a bigger problem than no translation
11:37:39  <planetmaker> Rubidium, good question. But it could e.g. query the name. Which can hold the version
11:37:45  <Rubidium> e.g. translating 'steel' to 'vee'/'vieh'
11:37:53  <planetmaker> it needs to be tailored. But it can be done, I guess.
11:37:54  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: so that is something that we need to protect :)
11:38:00  <planetmaker> I've never tried anything like that, though
11:38:05  <TrueBrain> md5 of the grf in the translation, or what ever :p
11:38:20  <planetmaker> TrueBrain, that'd be too strict IMO :-) But should work, too
11:38:26  <planetmaker> most easy, I guess
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11:38:38  <TrueBrain> for OpenTTD language files we make a 'number' from all stuff too
11:38:39  <Ammler> well, we really would like a version info in the grfs anyway.
11:38:45  <TrueBrain> which is 'unique' for a given english.txt
11:38:56  <Rubidium> yup, a hash of the base file is the easiest way
11:39:12  <TrueBrain> as I think embeding the translation in the grf is not really the way to go
11:39:25  <blathijs> TrueBrain: Why not?
11:39:26  <planetmaker> ^ I agree. At least if it gets many
11:39:27  <Ammler> md5 hash doesn't show, which is the newer version.
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11:39:36  <TrueBrain> blathijs: it bloats the grf unneeded
11:39:50  <planetmaker> Ammler, that doesn't matter too much, if the newgrf tells its name with action 08
11:39:52  <Rubidium> from a 'simple' user point of view adding the languages to the NewGRF is the best way
11:40:10  <blathijs> TrueBrain: You mean in actual file size? I'd expect translations to be minimal compared to the size of sprites?
11:40:15  <planetmaker> then it needs a GUI way to add static NewGRF
11:40:20  <TrueBrain> blathijs: no, I don't really care about filesize
11:40:25  <Rubidium> even so, what's the size of the translation vs the size of the rest of the file?
11:40:25  <TrueBrain> I mean, we have, what, 50 languages now?
11:40:29  <TrueBrain> translations will come in over time
11:40:33  <TrueBrain> you need to keep on updating your base grf
11:40:36  <TrueBrain> while nothing changes
11:40:41  <TrueBrain> most users will find that annoying and weird
11:40:50  <TrueBrain> (in my opinion ;))
11:41:06  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: most users will find it annoying and weird if they have to 'search' for a translation file
11:41:10  <Ammler> or you wait with adding the translation until you have a "worthful" update.
11:41:12  <blathijs> That makes sense. Splitting them allows you to update the (small) translations without having to redownload the (big) grf itself
11:41:18  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is why it should be made simple ;)
11:41:24  <TrueBrain> blathijs: exactly
11:41:47  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: how simple can it be made? Because it'll be at least as complex as bananas
11:41:58  <Rubidium> which a major number of the users doesn't use
11:41:59  <TrueBrain> <- that suggested _trans btw
11:42:43  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: the best option in my opinion would be something as simple as this: when a user loads a grf, known at BaNaNaS, and you have a language loaded, and we know the translation for that grf for that language, we suggest the user to download it
11:42:46  <TrueBrain> or something in that
11:42:54  <TrueBrain> but that makes it very BaNaNaS depending
11:43:28  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: we suggest people to download an AI, yet we get lots of people complaining they can't find an AI
11:43:47  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is because I think the game should give a popup when it tries to start a game with an AI while there aren't any AIs
11:43:51  <TrueBrain> giving the Content Download screen
11:43:56  <TrueBrain> and pointing to where to download
11:44:00  <TrueBrain> (if that isn't done already :p)
11:44:09  <Rubidium> and it would mean that you need to send an awful lot of information about NewGRFs to the client
11:44:27  <TrueBrain> huh? Did you read the same text as I wrote?
11:44:39  <TrueBrain> client sends to Content Service -> grf + language
11:44:47  <TrueBrain> servers send back: I have translation for you
11:45:02  <TrueBrain> but okay .. that is just my simple look on this
11:45:38  <Ammler> well, just download the translation, if available
11:46:04  <TrueBrain> Ammler: there needs to be some chatter to acknowledge for what it needs a translation ;)
11:47:01  <Ammler> that is the big issue on current bananans you need to click too many times for just saying "downlaod the needed grfs"
11:47:04  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: but I also showed you we can even make it on-demand downloading of translations ;) :)
11:47:27  <TrueBrain> (I can make such silly patches :) Ghehehehe :))
11:47:29  <Ammler> well, at least, what the ps players complain about,
11:47:43  <blathijs> ps?
11:47:50  <Ammler> cooop public server
11:48:00  <TrueBrain> Ammler: you should avoid words like 'ps' ;)
11:48:11  <TrueBrain> words .. letters :p
11:48:42  <Rubidium> how do NewGRFs handle defining the same string for the same language twice?
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11:52:39  <Rubidium> that might give some troubles when the main GRF contains translations and you load a _trans.grf that does the same
11:52:55  <TrueBrain> something to fix, I guess? :)
11:54:40  <Rubidium> generally redefining stuff in NewGRF context means you've made a mistake, so I'm not quite sure whether ignoring such checks for mistakes is a good idea
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11:55:28  <TrueBrain> if it comes from another grf?
11:55:36  <Ammler> hmm, doesn't it just override, if not 7F or FF
11:56:07  <planetmaker> <Rubidium> how do NewGRFs handle defining the same string for the same language twice? <-- iirc the last instance overrides the previous ones
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12:00:29  <Ammler> <-- using this tool does confim override, imo.
12:04:04  <Ammler> the german tanslator thread is silly, why do you discuss there in english, all contributors there speak german. :-)
12:04:36  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I am glad they do
12:04:40  <TrueBrain> means I can follow it from time to time
12:04:50  <Ammler> yeah, it is funny :-)
12:05:17  * Rubidium gives TrueBrain an cookie ;)
12:05:32  <TrueBrain> for what?
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12:05:46  * Ammler wonders if the Austrian Roujin doesn't need a de_AT language
12:06:32  *** paul_ [] has joined #openttd
12:06:54  <Ammler> @seen Roujin
12:06:55  <DorpsGek> Ammler: Roujin was last seen in #openttd 5 weeks, 1 day, 12 hours, 53 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <Roujin> can anyone give me some pointers how to handle utf8 strings in openttd (I'd like to print them to a file)? This is what I currently have:  Obviously it doesn't work with utf8 and writes some ascii garbage in the places where non-ascii chars are
12:06:59  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: System Administrator Appreciation Day (a cookie is one of their gift ideas)
12:07:10  <TrueBrain> Ah :) A bit late, but yeah, tnx :)
12:07:11  <TrueBrain> you too ;)
12:07:33  <Rubidium> why late? You haven't had your afternoon tea yet, right?
12:07:40  <TrueBrain> true
12:07:42  <TrueBrain> I will keep it for that
12:07:44  <TrueBrain> in my special box
12:11:00  <Ammler> btw. if you will support "sub" languages like de_CH, you might also think about bind the region settings to the language files, something Eddi some time ago suggested already.
12:11:47  *** DephNet[Paul] [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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12:15:44  <TrueBrain> who can think up a better solution for this:
12:15:46  <TrueBrain> translator/ core.subproject.create OpenTTD trunk -- openttd.base=english subversion.path=trunk/lang subversion.revision=1
12:16:03  <TrueBrain> this tells the system to create a subproject for project OpenTTD with the name trunk, and gives the other parameters to the plugins named
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12:21:06  <TrueBrain> tdev: I thought you said you were all mine :'( Hehe :) Oh well :) I tried ;)
12:21:35  <tdev> i was fighting with AS script generators for cpp
12:21:40  <tdev> reading your page :)
12:21:43  <TrueBrain> :p
12:22:08  <TrueBrain> we can btw talk it over in #webtranslator, if yuo like .. here is fine by me too, as it still is OpenTTD related ;)
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12:38:25  <Belugas> hello
12:38:31  * TrueBrain hugs Belugas
12:38:35  <TrueBrain> it is always so nice to see you
12:38:40  <TrueBrain> I start all smiling and stuff
12:38:50  <Belugas> whou hou!
12:39:08  <Belugas> i like when people react that way to my entrance :D
12:39:21  <Belugas> imagine if we are face to face one day ;)
12:40:04  <Rubidium> guess we need a OTTDconf0A
12:40:30  <TrueBrain> Belugas: I guess then it is all over :p
12:40:33  <TrueBrain> magic gone :)
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12:42:36  <Belugas> somehow, i don't believe that for even a fraction of a second
12:42:40  <Rubidium> so... which airliner would like to sponsor a bunch of people from all over Europe flying to Canada?
12:42:51  <Rubidium> (and possibly back)
12:42:52  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: private jet?
12:42:53  <Belugas> or.. the other way around...
12:44:59  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: not necessarily, I accept JAL scheduled flights too
12:45:44  <Rubidium> if they've got economy business (2 economy seats per person) or economy first class seats (3+ economy sets per person)
12:48:48  <Rubidium> as replacement for Canada I'm also willing to accept Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Norway or Hawaii
12:49:47  <TrueBrain> Hawaii
12:49:51  <TrueBrain> sounds reasonable
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12:50:44  <Forked> Norway, weee
12:51:45  <Belugas> if it happens at Hawaii, even if i'm there, you will not see me
12:51:48  <Belugas> as ...
12:51:50  <Belugas> i'll be...
12:51:53  <TrueBrain> I will join you on that ;)
12:51:55  <Belugas> well... yuo know...
12:52:00  <Belugas> you hou!
12:52:24  <Rubidium> Belugas: only means that we need a bit more sophisticated 'working' environment
12:52:32  <Yrol> hello :o) i just revereted my trunk via SVN to r16750 and applied a patch for that version, now, when i compile it, i get massive errors where i dont get any, if i compile the current trunk. whats happening there?
12:52:41  <Rubidium> though the water cooled machinery is nice ;)
12:52:51  <Belugas> lol!
12:53:29  <Belugas> Yrol, could be so many things... who knows
12:55:31  <Yrol> i guess so, yes. but to me it slowly seems, that there is some hidden line in everything openttd.. and it says to my pc "DONT compile!!!"
12:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause2> assert_compile(name!="Yrol")?
12:57:44  <Yrol> how funny
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12:59:53  <Eddi|zuHause2> <Rubidium> guess we need a OTTDconf0A <- you mean you want to discuss things that will go into version 0.A? :p
13:00:04  <Belugas> Yrol, it compiles everytime i try at home... soo...
13:00:13  <Belugas> cristal ball!
13:00:48  <Yrol> (Belugas) of course it does, you dont use win32, right? ;o)
13:01:08  <Belugas> MSVC
13:01:13  <Belugas> on xp
13:01:21  <Eddi|zuHause2> when Belugas is a Delphi person, he is raher likely to use windows
13:01:38  <Belugas> yup
13:01:39  <Belugas> quite
13:01:51  <Eddi|zuHause2> +t
13:01:54  * Belugas gives a "t"
13:01:57  <Belugas> too late :(
13:01:59  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
13:02:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i didn't have tea in a while...
13:02:30  <z-MaTRiX> brb
13:02:42  * TrueBrain gives Eddi|zuHause a nice cup of tea
13:02:47  <TrueBrain> I have the cookies
13:02:51  <TrueBrain> Rubidium gave them to me :)
13:03:05  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i know how to get these ;)
13:03:06  <Yrol> (Belugas) i dont understand it though, if the current, newest source compiles well, shouldnt then some ageold version also compile?
13:03:41  <TrueBrain> Yrol: if your new car runs fine
13:03:42  <Eddi|zuHause> Yrol: you're applying a custom patch that we do not know anything about...
13:03:45  <TrueBrain> should you old car run fine too?
13:03:59  <TrueBrain> what kind of nonsense is that ...
13:04:30  <Eddi|zuHause> nor is "it doesn't work" a proper error message
13:04:30  <Belugas> whatever the revision, nothing is garanteed to be compilable
13:04:34  <Rubidium> Yrol: 16754 compiled on MSVC
13:04:34  <dihedral> @seen yexo
13:04:35  <DorpsGek> dihedral: yexo was last seen in #openttd 17 hours, 22 minutes, and 29 seconds ago: <Yexo> I vote for complete ban of Alain from the development forum. <- You have my vote :)
13:04:38  <dihedral> :-(
13:04:40  <Belugas> we did break trunk quite oftenly
13:04:55  <Rubidium> I don't see any compile fixes since 16750, so there must be something wrong with your environment/source
13:06:20  <Yrol> TrueBrain, sure, the way you twist my sentence, it makes no sense. but a car doesnt run itself.. "I" run the car and i run an old car aswell as a new car.
13:06:22  <Alberth> Yrol: not always; c++ compilers change, even the C++ language changes
13:06:37  <Yrol> (Eddi|zuHause) im not asking for help, thius i dont need a 50 page-errordescriptnio
13:07:45  <TrueBrain> Yrol: you clearly don't understand how this works :)
13:08:01  <Eddi|zuHause> and your analogy isn't valid. if you learned how to drive an automatic (new) car, you don't know how to drive a manual (old) car
13:08:02  <TrueBrain> Yrol: but if you didn't got it yet: we can't help you as you are very vague
13:08:06  * Rubidium would like Yrol drive a T-Ford
13:08:17  <Rubidium> +to see
13:08:33  <Eddi|zuHause> or a car where the gears are not synchronised
13:08:57  <Eddi|zuHause> there're many ways to break old cars when you are not used to them
13:08:58  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: well, striclty only the first 2 are synced
13:09:06  <TrueBrain> but yeah ... I wouldn't like it when they were not :p
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13:17:09  <Svenska> hi
13:17:21  <Svenska> i'm using openttd 0.7.1 stable (debian squeeze)
13:17:31  <Svenska> can i use fluidsynth in openttd to get the midi music working?
13:18:00  <Eddi|zuHause> you could check the docs for "extmidi"
13:18:13  <Svenska> timidity hangs after i quit openttd, then the sound card stops working until reboot
13:18:40  <Svenska> what is extmidi?
13:18:42  <dihedral> burn the songs to a cd, and play them on your stereo
13:18:52  <Svenska> bad idea -> no stereo :)
13:18:57  <dihedral> ext(ernal) midi
13:19:37  <dihedral> copy them to your ipod, mp3 palyer, or whatever else you might have... perhaps a walkman
13:19:49  <Rubidium> extmidi is OpenTTD's way of calling an external application for playing the midi
13:20:02  <Rubidium> by default extmidi calls timidity
13:20:27  <blathijs> You can pass it a "cmd" option to make it use another program (e.g., fluidsynth)
13:20:28  <z-MaTRiX> hi
13:20:41  <Svenska> ah...
13:20:41  <z-MaTRiX> just got a replacement hdd
13:20:47  <blathijs> Rubidium probably knows how to pass an option to an output driver, I don't have openttd handy to check :-)
13:20:51  <Svenska> thanks for now
13:23:28  <Rubidium> Svenska: try openttd -m extmidi:cmd=fluidsynth (or whatever the name is)
13:25:47  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17001 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: replace some more assert(0)s to NOT_REACHED() and document why they (assert(0)) have to stay for the remaining cases.
13:26:44  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: it is just one case! :p (the latter)
13:27:26  <Svenska> Rubidium: thank you, i'll try
13:27:33  <Svenska> for now it doesn't work
13:27:48  <Svenska> i put "extmidi = fluidsynth -l -a alsa -i /usr/share/sounds/sf2/FluidR3_GM.sf2" in my openttd.cfg
13:28:35  <Svenska> which works from console; is there some kind of debug output?
13:29:35  <Rubidium> Svenska: extmidi isn't a used setting in 0.7/trunk
13:29:43  <Rubidium> as a result it isn't used
13:29:57  <Svenska> oh; cause "extmidi = timidity" was in there before
13:30:23  <Svenska> your command doesn't work
13:30:28  <Rubidium> Svenska: that's from 'long' ago
13:30:58  <Svenska> is there a replacement setting or is it gone?
13:31:56  <Rubidium> IIRC it's part of music_driver, but if my command doesn't work, then setting the same in music_driver doesn't work either
13:32:15  <Rubidium> though I'm trying to get it installed on my computer to fiddle a bit
13:36:36  <Yrol> TrueBrain, it certainly is the case, that i dont understand how programming and compiling works, nevertheless i try, i still try since a year or so, regardless of the difficulties i find put in my way by code as well as people. thats, in the end, why i AM here, to ask, to learn how to get stuff working without being helped learnign to walk. if then some people think, how a question is asked is wrong, sorry, they can roll up their oh so holy pamphlet of that
13:37:05  <TrueBrain> Yrol: lol .. ever considerd and read what we try to tell you? Give us some more clues what you are trying
13:37:10  <TrueBrain> we can't help you with: IT DOESNT WORK
13:37:27  <TrueBrain> but .. I tried to say that in 3 different ways now .. I will just give up :)
13:38:32  <Svenska> Rubidium: "cmd" may only accept one word, not a complete command line
13:38:44  <Svenska> using a script which just calls fluidsynth works
13:38:55  <Svenska> but when I quit openttd, the song plays to its end :)
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13:40:35  <Rubidium> Svenska: then that's probably the simplest way to get it to work
13:41:04  <Svenska> well, openttd does probably not support ALSA midi?
13:41:25  <Rubidium> OpenTTD doesn't do alsa directly
13:41:39  <Svenska> then same question for SDL probably
13:41:44  <TrueBrain> <- nice website :)
13:42:09  <Svenska> another question: can I get the fonts larger (without changing resolution) ?
13:42:14  <Rubidium> Svenska: SDL doesn't do midi
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13:42:33  <Rubidium> Svenska: openttd does support allegro midi though
13:42:54  <TrueBrain> hmm .. when I don't send any music to my boxes, I receive AM over it ...
13:43:26  <Svenska> i'll have a look, thank you
13:43:41  <z-MaTRiX> brb
13:43:43  <Svenska> but still: is there a way to enlarge the fonts?
13:43:50  <z-MaTRiX> haveaniceprogramming
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13:45:30  <Rubidium> Svenska: yes and no; you can enlarge the fonts, but the GUI doesn't scale (yet), as a result enlarging the font doesn't have much benefit in making stuff more legible
13:45:47  <Svenska> is this planned?
13:45:59  <Rubidium> yes
13:46:02  <Svenska> (even now, the german texts are getting out of their boxes)
13:46:27  <Svenska> for 0.8.0 ? ;-)
13:46:47  <Rubidium> probably partially
13:47:01  <Rubidium> but that all depends on how much time the dev can put into it
13:47:34  <Svenska> okay, 'cause the fonts are way to small for me and resolution changing is, there's simply not enough space
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13:48:05  <Rubidium> that happens when games are designed on 640x480
13:48:35  <Svenska> okay, i wish you a nice afternoon/evening then
13:50:01  <Svenska> bye
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13:50:05  <Rubidium> ciao
13:50:11  <Rubidium> yay... too late again!
13:50:17  <Rubidium> I'm getting good at that
13:50:57  <TrueBrain> being late?
13:50:59  <TrueBrain> getting late?
13:51:04  <TrueBrain> oh .. I should stop thinking :)
13:52:07  <Rubidium> as long as I'm not "the late Rubidium" everything's fine (by me at least)
13:52:22  <TrueBrain> ghehe :)
13:53:03  <OwenS> English is so full of funny euphanisms for death (And I know I spelt that horrably wrong)
13:54:47  *** z-MaTRiX [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
13:56:17  <OwenS> And is it just me or is "MPEG-4 Advanced Simple Profile" a really stupid name? :p
13:56:27  <TrueBrain> I agree
13:56:47  <OwenS> ... never mind that H.264 is also MPEG-4 (Sooo much confusion could have been saved if that had been MPEG-5...)
13:57:08  <OwenS> And, incidentally, WTF happened to MPEG-3? :p
13:57:43  <OwenS> Though I'm kinda hoping Dirac becomes popular
13:57:55  <TrueBrain> Dirac?
13:58:01  <OwenS>
13:58:13  <OwenS> Royalty free codec by the BBC with better than h.264 efficiency
13:58:36  <TrueBrain> ah ;)
13:58:59  <OwenS> All the fuss over the useless Theora and everyone forgets Dirac
13:59:32  <OwenS> (And Theora is really useles; you can't use decode hardware designed for any of the MPEG family of codecs with it - you can DIrac - cause apparently they wanted to make it different in every possible way)
14:04:14  <TrueBrain> Theora .. Dirac .. who makes up those names?!
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14:04:48  *** Svish|eee [~Svish@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
14:05:02  <OwenS> Dirac is named after scientist Paul Dirac :P
14:06:51  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
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14:37:21  <TrueBrain> it is too hot outside :(
14:37:48  <Azrael-> That's why going outside is a bad idea.
14:37:57  <TrueBrain> one needs to do shopping at some point
14:38:05  <TrueBrain> besides, it is getting inside :s
14:38:13  <planetmaker> good point.
14:38:48  <Azrael-> Can't you order your shopping on the internet?
14:38:58  <TrueBrain> not if I want it in by today
14:39:08  <Azrael-> If I was ever in a position of responsibility (and I sure hope I never am) then I'd just order it online.
14:39:13  *** Yrol [] has quit [Quit: MOOOOOOOOOO?????]
14:39:35  <planetmaker> "Without a problem we can't say anything about the real problem." <-- Yexo, you're sure you don't want to replace one word?
14:39:36  <Azrael-> Hah! "Moooooo?". What excellent wit.
14:40:43  <TrueBrain> "hy i AM here, to ask, to learn how to get stuff working without being helped learnign to walk" <- I liked this quote more :) Reads to me: I WANT YOU TO DO IT :p
14:41:52  <planetmaker> thread? ^
14:41:58  <TrueBrain> this channel, a while ago
14:42:05  <planetmaker> he :-P
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14:42:23  <planetmaker> good one indeed.
14:50:37  <Xaroth> TrueBrain: it done yet?
14:50:43  <TrueBrain> nope
14:50:45  <TrueBrain> not fixed
14:50:45  <Xaroth> :(
14:50:47  <TrueBrain> can't find it
14:59:15  <TrueBrain> Xaroth: I wish I did ... but I really am out of ideas :(
14:59:32  <Belugas> Getting better (or worse) everytime : "Hi all i will this be the best way over going about geting trains to over take each other on a net work"
14:59:37  <Belugas> WHAT???????
14:59:49  <TrueBrain> haha :)
15:00:01  <TrueBrain> the bigger this community gets, the more insane the questions become :)
15:02:19  <Forked> damn community and their people :\
15:02:29  <Forked> s/their/it's*
15:02:33  <TrueBrain> lets ban them all
15:02:39  <TrueBrain> starting with dihedral
15:02:40  <TrueBrain> (hihi :))
15:02:42  * TrueBrain hugs dihedral
15:02:58  <Forked> not the worst choice ;p
15:02:59  * Forked hids
15:03:04  <Forked> damn laptop keyboard.. HIDES.
15:11:18  *** Forked [] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:14:24  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:21:05  <OwenS> I wish less wikis used the Monobook style. It's monotonous...
15:21:27  <TrueBrain> hehe
15:21:32  <TrueBrain> start a campaign :)
15:21:57  <OwenS> It's even more common than SubSilver is/was for PHPbb2...
15:23:46  *** Chruker [] has joined #openttd
15:24:05  <valhallasw> OwenS: are there mediawiki skin pages? :P
15:24:14  <valhallasw> I mean, phpBB has a large skin-building-community
15:25:41  <OwenS> valhallasw: I presume there are :P
15:26:02  <OwenS> Even more silly though, I've seen a Monobook styled PMWiki...
15:28:57  <valhallasw> Belugas: probably related to
15:29:06  <valhallasw> without the double paste...
15:29:17  <Belugas> mmh?
15:29:24  * Belugas shall look
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15:30:18  <Belugas> valhallasw, you mean Alain-machin attempt to write something in english?
15:30:22  <valhallasw> yeah
15:30:44  <valhallasw> sorry, I didn't make that clear
15:31:12  <Belugas> so we are required to start up a commitee everytime this !@#$%&* is saying somethng on the web in order to decrypt it?
15:31:27  <Belugas> it is pure non sens
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15:34:18  <valhallasw> so is his savegame *grin*
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15:56:08  <Belugas> mmh... buy a vehicle or build a vehicle
15:59:15  <Lakie> For language purposes, I think "buy" is more correct.
15:59:32  <Lakie> As you usually buy them from the manfactor who has built it?
16:00:57  <Lakie> And since you could be buy already made vehicles or have them made for you, it becomes ambious if you go below the buy from manfactor level.
16:01:52  <TrueBrain> wow, I had to check this really was #openttd .. the most sensible argumentation I have seen all week :)
16:02:04  <TrueBrain> +1 kudo to Lakie :)
16:03:15  <Lakie> Heh
16:05:02  <TrueBrain> (I hope it was clear I was not being sarcastic of which I know is rare for me :))
16:07:14  <Lakie> I was just thinking of how its done in reality, and what would be simplest to understand.
16:09:12  <Belugas> good point Lakie
16:09:37  <Belugas> planetmaker raised the issue, i'm "thinking" out loud
16:10:28  <Lakie> Hehe
16:11:35  <Belugas> it does make more sens since we(user-wise) are transportation companies, not manufacturers
16:11:48  <Belugas> WHERE'S THE TRUCK PLANT???
16:11:58  <Lakie> Heh, in a void?
16:12:12  <Lakie> We have portals called depots to them.
16:12:14  * Lakie hides
16:12:32  <Belugas> yeah :D
16:13:22  <Belugas> mh... not Yeah to Hiding.. Yeah to portals...
16:13:30  <Belugas> arffff
16:14:09  <Lakie> Heh
16:14:52  <Lakie> Did planetmaker want to know for translating or customizing?
16:15:27  <Belugas> neither
16:15:33  <Belugas> correction of trunk
16:15:47  <Belugas> there's an SF patch for that
16:16:00  <Lakie> Hmmm... ok
16:16:09  <Belugas>
16:16:14  * Lakie should really keep more up to date with OpenTTD.
16:16:24  <Belugas> that's what i try to do :D
16:17:08  <Lakie> It does change pretty fast, has quite a massive development rate though. :)
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16:19:26  <Chruker> Can anybody recommend a good client-server like program for windows for watching TV over LANs?
16:19:53  <Belugas> true Lakie, SO true
16:20:25  <Belugas> Chruker, usually, when i want TV, i go in my living room...
16:20:51  <Chruker> well, good for you
16:28:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17002 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Change: also support distant join for waypoints
16:29:29  * Alberth thinks of suggesting a security web-cam to make sure the TV does not move without you noticing it.
16:30:39  <TrueBrain> lol @ Alberth
16:35:57  <Ammler> [18:28] <Belugas> [18:16:09] <-- shouldn't the patch also change the keys, else it is just a task for tanslator,?
16:41:52  <planetmaker> That is IMO just a task for translators
16:42:55  <planetmaker> But english.txt isn't translated and it's the example which tranlators usually follow
16:43:03  <Belugas> it could, dunno
16:43:05  <planetmaker> And I think it itself could be made more consistant
16:43:32  <planetmaker> it's really a no-issue, but well :-)
16:43:46  <Belugas> for sure, making english change will "force" other translators to consider
16:43:56  <planetmaker> exactly :-)
16:44:44  <planetmaker> and, well. Still, a transport company rather buys than builds vehicles :-)
16:45:00  <planetmaker> After all we get ingame also an offer to buy and test them prior to market release
16:45:09  <planetmaker> If we built them ourselves, that wouldn't happen
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16:45:50  <TrueBrain> mornign Yexo
16:46:05  <Yexo> hello TrueBrain
16:47:33  <Ammler> [18:44] <Belugas> for sure, making english change will "force" other translators to consider <-- Also, if you keep the key?
16:47:39  <Yexo> thanks for the message planetmaker
16:47:47  <planetmaker> hm... but I start to see what you mean with "change the keys", Ammler :-)
16:47:52  <planetmaker> Yexo: you're welcome
16:48:22  <planetmaker> Ammler: they're notified of changed strings
16:48:42  <planetmaker> or at least there's a category "changed strings" or "strings needing attention"
16:48:55  <planetmaker> it's good practise to check them from time to time as translator ;-)
16:49:20  <Rubidium> isn't that the 'default' on you get to when going in the editor?
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16:49:43  <planetmaker> dunno. May even be :-)
16:49:49  <planetmaker> I'd have said "all strings" though
16:49:52  <Ammler> ah ok, then it might make sense, not changing the key :-)
16:50:29  <Rubidium> if there are no missing strings/strings needed attention that'd be the case
16:50:33  <planetmaker> Ammler: that could be done, too. But then it should be done in all languages. So that no action from a translator is required. But rather only asked for
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16:52:10  <Ammler> planetmaker: but then, will it still be makred as "needs attention"?
16:52:22  <planetmaker> dunno
16:52:35  <TMS> How do I start a dedicated server to run in the background?
16:52:39  <TMS> I don't want it hogging the command line.
16:52:44  <Yexo> ./openttd -D &
16:52:53  <Ammler> TMS: I wouldn't recommend that, use screen instead.
16:53:04  <Yexo> but I agree with Ammler
16:53:34  <TMS> Why would you recommend against it?
16:53:51  <planetmaker> it may have interesting output :-)
16:54:06  <TMS> But doesn't it log everything?
16:54:12  <planetmaker> and it might help to be able to act as the server itself
16:54:14  <Ammler> console sometimes is more comfort than rcon
16:54:14  <TMS> I mean, surely it does, being a server and all.
16:54:26  <planetmaker> why should it log?
16:54:42  <TMS> In case a bug occurs, and you need logs of what happened?
16:54:47  <Yexo> TMS: OpenTTD doesn't log any output to a file by default
16:55:02  <planetmaker> that's why screen is so handy :-)
16:55:28  <Yexo> you could also redirect all console output
16:55:32  <Ammler> TMS: your server isn't windows?
16:55:40  <TMS> ...No.
16:55:47  <Belugas> ho... SHAME ON YOU!
16:55:48  <TMS> It's ... Debian.
16:55:57  <TMS> Console-only Debian.
16:56:12  <TrueBrain> TMS: btw, to answer your question: ./openttd -D -f forks
16:56:54  <Belugas> forks?
16:56:56  <Belugas> works?
16:57:07  <Belugas> breaks?
16:57:07  <TrueBrain> Belugas: you fork a process
16:57:20  <Belugas> lies!
16:57:23  <TrueBrain> okay
16:57:24  <TMS> right, I also need to load a savegame on startup, and have it reload everytime the server auto-resets
16:57:24  <Belugas> i fork a knoife
16:57:26  <TMS> Can this be done?
16:57:28  <Belugas> knife
16:57:46  <Rubidium> "imagine there is no fork"... "oh, you're using Windows?"
16:57:53  <planetmaker> TMS: it can.
16:57:58  <Belugas> hehehe
16:58:04  <planetmaker> best way to control is autopilot+
16:58:08  <planetmaker> ap+
16:58:22  <planetmaker> it's a wrapper tcl script
16:58:53  <TMS> assuming that means I should run apt-get install python ;)
16:59:02  <Ammler> tcl
16:59:11  <TMS> oh, yeah'
16:59:18  <Ammler> and expect
16:59:20  <TMS> Silly me.
17:00:22  <Ammler> then you would be able to control over IRC and give rcon to every op in the channel
17:01:06  <TMS> conveniently enough, I run an IRC server on the same machine
17:01:12  <TMS> (not the one I'm typing on)
17:01:37  <planetmaker> obviously. you're on an oftc server here :-)
17:02:07  <TMS> ;)
17:02:47  *** Svish|eee [~Svish@] has joined #openttd
17:03:19  <Ammler> oh, btw. creating logs is as easy just pipe the output to file...
17:03:40  <TMS> openttd -D > log.txt
17:03:43  <TMS> simple as that
17:03:58  <Ammler> 1>log 2>error
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17:16:40  <TMS> planetmaker: should I use autopilot or ap+?
17:18:08  <OwenS> Does OpenTTD require custom ACKs of every packet or something? Cause otherwise I can't understand how my download speed is sooo slow with OpenTTD compared to everything else
17:19:06  <TrueBrain> yes, we send an ACK of an ACK of an ACK, just to ACK to ACK :p
17:19:08  <TrueBrain> gheheh :)
17:19:14  <TrueBrain> maybe you just have a bad peering :)
17:19:30  <OwenS> Same server is fast via HTTP
17:19:34  <OwenS> Just something funky :p
17:19:39  <TrueBrain> that is your ISP by friend :)
17:19:43  <TrueBrain> 'torrent' limitation
17:19:48  <TrueBrain> by = my
17:19:50  <TrueBrain> lol
17:20:00  <Ammler> [19:16] <TMS> planetmaker: should I use autopilot or ap+? <-- +
17:20:08  <TMS> k then
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17:21:02  <Ammler> TMS:
17:21:38  <OwenS> TrueBrain: If it were a torrent limitation I wouldn't be able to torrent well :p
17:21:52  <TrueBrain> maybe it runs at the same speed? :p
17:22:24  <TrueBrain> the only 'problem' the content service can have, that it always sends a packet of N size
17:22:33  <TrueBrain> (doesn't grow or shrinks depending on the speed)
17:22:41  <OwenS> I was refering to the save game download
17:22:42  <TrueBrain> or either way, last time I looked at the code :p
17:22:55  <TrueBrain> then you were unclear :p
17:23:02  <TrueBrain> in that case again: peering ;)
17:25:57  <OwenS> 3 (  151.733 ms  151.700 ms  153.575 ms <- First hop off my premisis... OUCH
17:26:08  <TrueBrain> l)
17:26:10  <TrueBrain> ;)
17:26:11  <TrueBrain> as said: peering
17:26:22  <TrueBrain> happens
17:26:24  <OwenS> Thats not peering. Thats ISP suckage
17:26:31  <TrueBrain> depends on what is 2) and 4)
17:27:01  <TMS> Ah crap, where do I download Autopilot?
17:27:04  <OwenS> 2) 4)
17:27:10  <TMS> I'm on the main Autopilot page, nothing's here about downloading.
17:27:15  <TrueBrain> OwenS: hostmasks .. but I can lok those up myself :p
17:27:30  <Ammler> TMS: svn
17:27:43  <TMS> oh boy, svn.
17:28:04  <Ammler> well, there is also a zip of the source
17:28:13  <OwenS> 150ms first hop latency... BT, I SO HATE YOU
17:28:30  <TMS> What's the SVN server?
17:28:45  <TrueBrain> OwenS: well, that is terrible, yes :p
17:29:40  <OwenS> Even worse: 400ms before it leaves sheffield. WTF is it doing in sheffield anyway? Why is my connection running on ATM so far?
17:30:47  <Ammler> TMS: the link is on the bottom of that page
17:30:51  <TrueBrain> OwenS: don't try to understand peering :)
17:30:52  <TMS> k, thanks
17:31:02  <TrueBrain> (it always takes the cheapest route :))
17:31:16  <OwenS> Within their network all routes should be equal cost!
17:31:28  <TrueBrain> depending on utilization, that might or might not be true :)
17:31:36  <OwenS> 150ms me to them; 400ms to the edge of the building; 450ms to london; 600ms to nl; 650ms to server
17:31:39  <TrueBrain> I even offload traffic over other connections within our network if it is needed :p
17:31:59  <TrueBrain> 150 from london to AMS-IX?
17:32:03  <TrueBrain> that is VERY poor performance :p
17:32:08  <OwenS> Telehouse London to AMS-IX, yes
17:32:19  <TrueBrain> euhm .. I reach that in 4ms, in worst case :p
17:32:29  <TrueBrain> sometimes 6 .. around this time :p
17:32:53  <OwenS> Though I must say that some routers appear to be being lazy in responding to pings
17:34:14  <TrueBrain> isn't that normal? :)
17:34:34  <OwenS> I mean very very lazy
17:34:43  <OwenS> As in I get large variations between hops :p
17:35:16  <TMS> uhh
17:35:21  <TMS> Once I've started a dedicated server
17:35:32  <TMS> how do I disable it/restart it if it's running in the background?
17:35:53  <Ammler> so you won't use ap+?
17:36:04  <TMS> nah, I'll just use cron
17:36:09  <TrueBrain> TMS: for that you need the console
17:36:35  <TMS> So there's no way to stop the process without using a console?
17:36:47  <TMS> That's... not very good. :/
17:36:53  <Ammler> ap+ has also a api to support kill signals for combine with cron. ;-)
17:36:55  <TrueBrain> make a patch
17:37:43  <OwenS> I need to get us switched onto Virgin Media.
17:37:45  <TMS> I'm having a hard time getting TCL working, and the fact that you have to use SVN to get the files isn't helping.
17:37:53  <OwenS> 20MB via DOCCIS (I.E. actually delivered)
17:38:11  <TrueBrain> TMS: apt-get install subversion
17:38:15  <TrueBrain> should't be that much of a problem ;)
17:38:29  <Ammler> well, I offered you the source as zip or what ever...
17:38:30  <OwenS> apt-get install tcl expect  :p
17:38:38  <TMS> I mean I don't know how to use svn :(
17:38:39  <TrueBrain> OwenS: I love this country ... internet works here :) Well, unless you take a REALLY crappy ISP :p
17:38:48  <TrueBrain> TMS: svn checkout svn://<url here>
17:39:02  <OwenS> TrueBrain: BT should have a good network. Reality says otherwise...
17:39:12  <Ammler> .nl has a bit trouble with reverse DNS
17:39:13  <TrueBrain> OwenS: I run within 4ms to AMS-IX :p
17:39:25  <TrueBrain> Ammler: lol, what a weird thing to say
17:39:32  <TrueBrain> clearly you don't understand reverse DNS requests :)
17:40:07  <OwenS> PTR some.domain.any.tld.
17:40:53  <TrueBrain> and those arpa requests are deligated along the chain to the AS, and ISP, (and possible the user)
17:41:07  <TrueBrain> which means you can in no way ever say that .nl has trouble with reverse DNS
17:41:08  <Ammler> Jul 21 23:30:26 mozart sshd[12235]: Address 82.x.x.x, but this does not map back to the address - POSSIBLE BREAK-IN ATTEMPT! <-- mostly from .nl domains.
17:41:13  <TrueBrain> as it is NOT grouped by that
17:41:23  <TrueBrain> Ammler: so based on ONE entry, you make an assumption?
17:41:33  <TrueBrain> you don't deserve a cookie today, you are a bad sysop :)
17:41:35  <Ammler> no, 2 of our members have that
17:41:40  <Ammler> both are dutch :-)
17:41:46  <TrueBrain> just means an ISP fucked up
17:41:51  <TrueBrain> which is not unusual
17:42:49  <valhallasw> Ammler: cable providers fucking up
17:42:51  <valhallasw> ^^
17:42:51  <TrueBrain> Ammler: I know 2 black people who has done jail: ALL black people have done jail
17:42:55  <TrueBrain> I mean .. wtf?
17:43:01  <Ammler> :-D
17:43:11  <TrueBrain> don't make stupid generalizations
17:43:14  <TrueBrain> makes you look stupid
17:43:15  <OwenS> Reminds me to update my server's RDNS
17:43:20  <OwenS> TrueBrain: 4ms to AMS-IX? I get 202ms to edge of LINX and 198ms to AMS-IX
17:43:25  <TrueBrain> OwenS: hehe, I did just that too :p :p
17:43:27  <Ammler> TrueBrain: you began with
17:44:05  <TrueBrain> OwenS: within 20 meters of copper, I run on fiber (all the way to the AS, and on)
17:44:08  <TrueBrain> so it is not really fair ;)
17:44:20  <OwenS> I think I have 3 miles of copper...
17:44:38  <OwenS> Thats as-the-crow-flies, not actual length..
17:44:45  <TrueBrain> the copper allows me 100 mbit/s, the fiber 1 gbit/s (up to the local POP), after that it is 40 gbit/s :p
17:44:53  <OwenS> Virgin Media I'd have about 5 meters of copper...
17:45:02  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: 20 meters? most colocated boxes have more copper than that :P
17:45:21  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: most likely :)
17:45:25  <TrueBrain> well, not really
17:45:26  <OwenS> (5 meters of DOCCIS over copper coax anyway)
17:45:26  <TrueBrain> depends :p
17:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r17003 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 5 changes by habell
17:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
17:45:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 4 changes by planetmaker
17:45:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: indonesian - 21 changes by prof
17:45:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 6 changes by SupSuper
17:45:35  <valhallasw> yeah, I realized that when I said it :P
17:45:39  <TrueBrain> most racks have fibers nowedays
17:45:40  <OwenS> (Fiber-to-the-pedestal)
17:45:44  <TMS> You guys said is the SVN url
17:45:47  <TMS> that's an HTTP version
17:45:50  <TMS> I need the raw SVN url
17:46:04  <Ammler> svn supports http
17:46:15  <valhallasw> hmm, leidenuniv ip? :P
17:46:18  <TrueBrain> TMS: try before complain
17:46:20  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: dah
17:46:25  <OwenS> TMS: Thats an SVN Webdav URL...
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17:46:36  <hermy> Télécharger ce script / Download this script / Transfiera esta mIRC escritura / Laden Sie diesen Index herunter
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17:46:41  <TMS> well, that's the one that the page provided to me
17:46:57  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: student housing .. so copper till the box in my hallway, fiber to uni, fiber to surfnet :p
17:47:04  <Ammler> cool, first time, our +m worked :-)
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17:47:21  <OwenS> TMS: svn co autopilot
17:47:26  <Ammler> [19:46] --> hermy hat den Kanal betreten (~smerek@
17:47:27  <Yexo> Existing translations: "Geef plaatsnamen weer
17:47:28  <Yexo> ", "Geef stationsnamen weer
17:47:28  <Yexo> ". let's be consistent, lets add "Namen controlepost weergegeven
17:47:28  <Yexo> "
17:47:28  <Ammler> [19:46] <-- hermy hat den Kanal verlassen.
17:47:43  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: right :P
17:48:07  <TrueBrain> Ammler: what are you babbling?
17:48:11  <TrueBrain> @mode +m
17:48:14  *** mode/#openttd [+m] by DorpsGek
17:48:25  *** mode/#openttd [-m] by DorpsGek
17:48:25  <Ammler> well, first time I saw it working.
17:48:28  <TrueBrain> doesn't look like it was +m, was it?
17:48:47  <Ammler> TrueBrain: we use +m on #openttdcoop
17:49:05  <TrueBrain> ah, yes, sorry, my cristal ball indeed told me that
17:49:07  <TrueBrain> my mistake
17:49:49  <Ammler> well, it was SmatZyIdea
17:50:08  <TrueBrain> you do understand I am complainnig about your absolute lack of putting things in perspective for us?
17:50:14  <TrueBrain> and that you just started to babble something? :)
17:50:25  * Yexo goes changing all newly translated strings :(
17:50:27  <TrueBrain> (worse: you started to talk non-english :p)
17:50:55  <TrueBrain> Yexo: good luck :)
17:51:02  <OwenS> I wish HE or such 100mb/s pipes were cheaper. Dealing directly with a backbone provider would be awesome. Getting a public IPv4 range even more so :P
17:51:09  <Yexo> TrueBrain: just the 5 strings from this commit
17:51:19  <OwenS> (And I mean orders of magnitude cheaper :P )
17:51:27  <TrueBrain> OwenS: lol ... why you want a public ipv4 RANGE?
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17:51:32  <TrueBrain> for that we have datacenters :p
17:51:48  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Datacenters don't make very good places to work :p
17:51:58  <TrueBrain> OwenS: to work you only need 1 IP :)
17:52:07  <TrueBrain> never needed more .. :p
17:52:32  <OwenS> Need? No. Want? Yes. Would be convinient :p
17:52:39  <TrueBrain> for what? :)
17:52:44  <TrueBrain> I really wonder, for what do you need it?
17:52:53  <OwenS> Assigning my virtual machines IPs :p
17:53:06  <TrueBrain> for that, you have datacenters :p
17:53:07  <valhallasw> why would you want to use external ips for that?
17:53:08  <TrueBrain> ghehe
17:53:11  <TrueBrain> use IPv6 ;)
17:53:15  <valhallasw> or NAT :P
17:54:13  <Yexo> "Eerst trein controlepost verwijderd" <- what kind of Dutch is that?
17:54:27  <TrueBrain> potjes nederlands :p
17:54:31  <valhallasw> kill-it-with-fire-dutch :p
17:54:33  <TrueBrain> poor Yexo .. he has work to do :)
17:54:52  <TrueBrain> looks like me trying to translate :p
17:54:57  <Yexo> I don't mind a bit translating, but I hate having to fix translations because somebody is very inconsistent
17:55:03  <TrueBrain> (dyslectic, always fun to read back what I wrote :))
17:55:31  <TrueBrain> Yexo: I am just happy WT3 shows you it is inconsistent :p
17:56:01  <Yexo> actually the commit diff showed me it was inconsistent :p
17:56:07  <TrueBrain> doh :'(
17:56:08  <TrueBrain> hehe
17:56:10  <TrueBrain> was worth a shot :)
17:56:16  <Yexo> but wt3 makes it easy to look up the already existing translations, and to fix it :)
17:58:19  <OwenS> Other BT complaints: Shitty router which they "upgrade" the firmware on (Crippling features) without asking; The whole Phorm affair; don't support IP multicast; etc
17:58:34  <TrueBrain> poor OwenS
17:58:38  <TrueBrain> I think you should start your own ISP
17:58:46  <TrueBrain> sounds like you make a shot with decent quality :)
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17:59:33  <Yexo> hmm, a decent translations for "sign", I don't like "bord", but maybe it's the best there is
17:59:53  <OwenS> I also wish routers supported SCTP. Being able to use it instead of TCP would rock...
17:59:59  <TrueBrain> Yexo: cant think up a better
18:01:48  <OwenS> While I think about it... Doesn't every IPv6 /48 come with a /64 of multicast addresses?
18:02:17  <TrueBrain> can't remember last time I used multicast .. :)
18:02:40  <OwenS> Would this be related to the fact no ISPs support it? :p
18:02:58  <OwenS> Which is quite silly as it would help them a lot...
18:03:01  <TrueBrain> for what is it ever useful? :)
18:03:09  <TrueBrain> radio and tv .. for that it can be useful :p
18:03:39  <Alberth> brb
18:05:27  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: try multicast on campzone and see if the crew comes hunting you :p
18:05:36  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: there is a good idea :)
18:06:03  <valhallasw> (someone tried that. some routers convert multicast to unicast. chaos ensues)
18:06:15  <OwenS> lol
18:06:27  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: I expected more of them :)
18:06:34  <TrueBrain> we filter all multicast away at router
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18:07:12  <valhallasw> er, wait
18:07:14  <valhallasw> s/routers/switches
18:07:20  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: even worse
18:07:51  <valhallasw> but the new network setup is quite nice.. routed, but allowing for broadcast
18:07:56  <OwenS> WTF is a switch doing interpreting multicast traffic? :p
18:08:03  <TrueBrain> OwenS: I wonder about that too
18:08:08  <TrueBrain> a layer3 switch might do that
18:08:10  <TrueBrain> but even then ...
18:08:18  <valhallasw> acting stupid, probably
18:08:23  <OwenS> But a layer 3 switch is really just a fast but limited router
18:08:32  <TrueBrain> very true; still a switch ;)
18:08:38  <TrueBrain> a l2 switch should never touch traffic in that way
18:08:48  <TrueBrain> just put the multicast on all ports, and let that be it
18:09:33  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: hehe, allowing broadcast is useful yes :p
18:09:40  <TMS> Where is openttd.cfg stored in Linux?
18:09:46  <OwenS> Or, if it's being fancy, IGMP snoop to decide where the multicast should go. But convert to unicast? WTF? Your clients are gonna be confused!
18:09:46  <TrueBrain> TMS: ~/.openttd
18:09:52  <TMS> right, thanks
18:10:29  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: I believe we just called the netops of campzone retards :p :p :p
18:10:51  <TrueBrain> truth is, never been there
18:10:57  <TrueBrain> I don't know the size of the network they try to setup
18:11:04  <TrueBrain> last LAN party I arranged had 100 clients
18:11:15  <TrueBrain> some catalyst 2950, and we were done
18:11:17  <valhallasw> the backbone is fine. It's the people using their own switches :P
18:11:34  <valhallasw> afair
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18:11:50  <OwenS> Thats where you wish Ethernet had TTL
18:11:58  <TrueBrain> it has hopcount
18:12:00  <TrueBrain> :p
18:12:15  <TrueBrain> I once spend 2 hours tracing a packet that was bouncing on and off switches ..
18:12:20  <TrueBrain> not something you wish to do every day :)
18:12:20  <OwenS> lol
18:12:29  <TrueBrain> switched off the complete network to get ride of the packet :p
18:12:59  <TrueBrain> so I agree on the TTL :P
18:12:59  <OwenS> If I were setting up their network, I'd set the hopcount on all packets going to users to be 1 from the end. I.E, don't use your own switches :P
18:13:15  <TrueBrain> OwenS: nasty ;)
18:13:32  <TrueBrain> although easy to fix (from the cilent point of view)
18:13:59  <OwenS> Alternatively, set it to 2 from the end so it can't come back :p
18:14:20  <TrueBrain> hmm .. my roommates filled up 500 GB of shit in the last 3 weeks ...
18:15:33  <OwenS> owenshep@Asuka:~$ zfs list
18:15:34  <OwenS> media                        381G  1.41T   381G  /var/media
18:15:53  <OwenS> I had arround 500GB before I made a mistake with debian-installer :'(
18:16:08  <TrueBrain> auch
18:16:17  <TrueBrain> I allocated 500G for my roommates to use
18:16:23  <TrueBrain> they tend to fill it up ... quickly :s
18:16:31  <valhallasw> rm -rf
18:16:33  <valhallasw> fixed \o/
18:16:33  <OwenS> (381GB used, 1.41TB free, 381GB "refer", whatever it is)
18:16:57  <TrueBrain> OwenS: free? Not total size?
18:17:07  *** Azrael [] has joined #openttd
18:17:24  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: read too much BOFH?
18:17:29  <OwenS> TrueBrain: That gets confusing when a volume has a quota assigned or such :p
18:17:32  <TrueBrain> btw, valhallasw, when is campzone?
18:17:43  <valhallasw> I have no idea
18:17:55  <OwenS> TrueBrain: should explain it :p
18:18:08  <valhallasw> :D
18:18:27  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: 31 jul-10 aug
18:18:34  <TrueBrain> ah, today :p
18:18:36  <OwenS> But, zpool list: media  1.81T   381G  1.44T    20%  ONLINE  -
18:18:46  <valhallasw> OwenS: outdated \o
18:18:47  <OwenS> 1.81Tb of storage
18:18:47  <TMS> k then
18:18:50  <TMS> this is strange.
18:18:52  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: aren't you at it? :p
18:18:56  <TMS> I tried starting a dedicated server
18:18:58  <valhallasw> no ^__^
18:19:08  <TMS> and now whenever I try to connect, it tells me "Network Game Syncrhonization Failed"
18:19:14  <valhallasw> I've got *vacation*
18:19:15  <valhallasw> finally
18:19:17  <valhallasw> so
18:19:18  <TrueBrain> hehe
18:19:18  <valhallasw> no
18:19:24  <TrueBrain> how far are you? (study-wise)
18:19:25  <TMS> Why is this?
18:19:25  <valhallasw> I'm not gonna sit in a tent and play computer games
18:19:48  <valhallasw> next year I'm going to finish my bachelors (astrophysics/physics)
18:19:58  <TrueBrain> I remember what you did ;)
18:20:05  <TrueBrain> nice :) I hope you make it :)
18:20:14  <OwenS> Astrophysics/physics? Good choice. What I'm gonna be going for =)
18:20:18  <TrueBrain> already any idea on what you are going to do your bachelor project?
18:20:41  <valhallasw> LOFAR is the only combined project that sounds interesting
18:20:50  <TrueBrain> OwenS: worst part about this is, I did astro for a few years at the same place valhallasw went .. yet we never met :p
18:20:59  <OwenS> lol
18:21:00  <TrueBrain> LOFAR, don't get me started on LOFAR :p
18:21:25  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: but yeah, interesting subject :)
18:22:29  <TrueBrain> OwenS: truth there, I wonder if any of us in here would regornise the other when standing in front of you :p
18:22:48  <TrueBrain> last time in class I had someone saying: OpenTTD is such a cool game, I wish I knew how to get my patch applied!
18:22:50  <OwenS> That is a point :p
18:22:52  <TrueBrain> I had to laugh .. really hard :)
18:22:54  <OwenS> lool
18:23:32  <OwenS> Small world indeed
18:23:35  <TrueBrain> it is that the patch really sucked ..... :p
18:23:41  <valhallasw> TrueBrain: Huygens, 3rd floor, in front of the door is a solution :P
18:23:49  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: yeah, I looked it over once
18:23:55  <valhallasw> I you'd really care :P
18:24:00  <TrueBrain> but forgot your name .. only knew it was with an M
18:24:02  *** Azrael- [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:24:04  <TrueBrain> my picture isn't up there :p :p :p
18:24:10  <valhallasw> doh.
18:24:34  <TrueBrain> next year I have to pass EM1 and KM1 (yeah, go figure), so I will be around more .. will look :p
18:24:54  <valhallasw> LOL
18:24:57  <OwenS> orudge will probably be delighted to know that St Andrews is the university it looks like I most want to go to :p
18:25:19  <TrueBrain> OwenS: I will sure to notify him intime, so he could give you a ..... warm welcome
18:25:21  <TrueBrain> with cold water :p
18:25:45  <OwenS> TrueBrain: He won't be there :p
18:26:08  <OwenS> Well... unless he's doing a postgraduate :P
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18:26:56  <valhallasw> Afstandsbepaling van M3 (NGC 5272) via RR Lyrae
18:26:58  <valhallasw> dumdumdum.
18:27:06  <TrueBrain> don't peek in my user folder
18:27:07  <TrueBrain> it is rude
18:27:07  <Forconin> Anyone experienced any problems with diff_custom in openttd.cfg lately?
18:27:09  <OwenS> Would always be fun to meet him of course :p
18:27:14  <Forconin> 100% sure i turned off breakdowns
18:27:14  <valhallasw> I'm not. Just googling :P
18:27:16  <TrueBrain> Forconin: yeah, it no longer exists
18:27:19  <Forconin> but my planes are still breaking down
18:27:32  <Forconin> TrueBrain: Aw, crap
18:27:46  <TrueBrain> look at the wiki, it will tell you all you want to know
18:27:53  <TrueBrain> valhallasw: ghehe :)
18:27:57  <Forconin> I looked at the wiki. That's where i found it.
18:28:13  <TrueBrain> start the game with a GUI, and switch it off ;)
18:28:36  <Forconin> no GUI, dedicated server.
18:28:47  <Yexo> Forconin: what wiki page?
18:28:48  <OwenS> Forconin: Copy a cfg from your local machine then
18:28:49  <TrueBrain> Forconin: then I can't help you :) (wish has to do with my lack of knowledge :))
18:29:04  <Yexo> diff_custom is obsolete since somewhere before 0.7
18:29:12  <Forconin> Ok, thanks guys. :)
18:29:24  <Yexo> it's replaced by the [difficulty] section
18:29:36  <Yexo> but what wiki page did you find it on?
18:30:30  <OwenS> LOL. "At the ISPA Awards, The Internet Villain went to Stephen Conroy and the Australian Government, for continuing to promote network-level blocking despite significant national and international opposition."
18:31:00  <valhallasw> ah, there we go
18:31:11  <TrueBrain> you finally found a picture of me?
18:31:14  <valhallasw> yes
18:31:17  <TrueBrain> should be easy, as I have a few on :p
18:31:20  <valhallasw> DLF almanak :p
18:31:20  <valhallasw> doh.
18:31:21  <TrueBrain> show me :)
18:31:22  <valhallasw> :D
18:31:23  <TrueBrain> LOL!
18:31:26  <TrueBrain> almanak, yeah, they have one :)
18:31:34  <TrueBrain>
18:31:36  <TrueBrain> to make it easier ;)
18:31:43  <TrueBrain> some are really old btw :p
18:32:16  <Tekky> Is it true that in 30 minutes the next nightly will be built?
18:32:27  <TrueBrain> Tekky: it is more that 30 minutes ago it started
18:32:33  <TrueBrain> I thikn in 7 minutes it will be done?
18:32:43  <Tekky> Ah, thanks :)
18:37:17  <Rubidium> I vote for it to be finished at 20:46
18:37:28  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I thought you made it faster? :)
18:37:51  <Rubidium> yeah, from 48 to 46! ;)
18:37:58  <TrueBrain> lol :)
18:39:55  <Rubidium> though I have to agree... the newly added Dutch strings are, except 1, inconsistent with the already existing ones
18:40:01  <Rubidium> bad habell
18:40:35  <Rubidium> "waypoint" is an Indonesian word?
18:40:58  <TrueBrain> they just added it to the dictonary ;)
18:43:06  <OwenS> <-- ROFLMAO
18:43:27  <TrueBrain> hehe
18:43:42  <OwenS> I also like the Sony one:
18:43:48  <OwenS> even
18:44:21  <TrueBrain> lol
18:44:55  <KingJ> Saw that article last night, pretty amazing
18:45:29  <planetmaker> TMS: ap+ is the successor of autopilot
18:46:04  <OwenS> I must say, in delivering my Mini-ITX, eBuyer shipped me it in 4 boxes 4 days. 2 boxes big enough to contain all the parts...
18:47:20  <KingJ> I had dell deliver 3 replacement PDA styluses in a large box, with the 3 styluses tucked under the bottom flap
18:49:08  <Tekky> Yay, the nightly build is completed. :-) Now it is time to test the new feature for distant joins of waypoints. Thanks for your work on implementing it, Rubidium.
18:52:08  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: afaik the campzone is right now
18:52:20  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: we established that, yes ;)
18:52:36  <planetmaker> he :-P I'm not through the backlog :-P
18:52:42  <TrueBrain> :)
18:52:46  <TrueBrain> that you read it in so much detail .. ;)
18:52:50  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I usually just skim it, unless highlighted ;)
18:53:06  <planetmaker> yeah. Usually. Today is unusual :-)
18:53:10  <TrueBrain> Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium Rubidium
18:53:16  <TrueBrain> this is going to be fun :)
18:53:20  <Forconin> hmm
18:53:28  <Forconin> Can't seem to get [Difficulty] to work
18:53:29  <Forconin> weird
18:53:30  <TrueBrain> (I expect a kick now .. somehow :p)
18:53:35  <TrueBrain> Forconin: which version do you use?
18:53:39  <Forconin> 0.7.1
18:53:41  <Forconin> Linux
18:53:45  <Forconin> or
18:53:47  <Forconin> it works
18:53:53  <Forconin> but it resets itself every time i start the server
18:54:02  <Forconin> hm
18:54:03  <TrueBrain> don't load a game ;)
18:54:07  <Forconin> maybe diff_level doing it?
18:54:07  <planetmaker> :-)
18:54:19  <planetmaker> loaded games override cfg
18:54:22  <Rubidium> Forconin: a) is there diff_custom lingering around in the config file? b) is diff_level != 3?
18:54:25  <Forconin> No loading
18:54:30  <Forconin> diff_level it was
18:54:32  <Forconin> thanks
18:54:51  <planetmaker> :-) Seems like easy help... :-P
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18:56:16  <Tekky> Oh, in the latest nightly build, OpenTTD crashes when I bulldoze my old single-tile waypoint. However, when I remove the waypoint using the waypoint tool (instead of the bulldoze tool), it doesn't crash. I'll make a ticket on and attach my savegame.
18:58:17  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:58:29  <planetmaker> :D @ Tekky
18:58:41  <planetmaker> ok, no good point to upgrade, I guess :-)
18:59:19  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it's never a good point to upgrade!
19:00:36  <Tekky> Ah, if I save the game and then load the game again and only then bulldoze the waypoint, the game does not crash.
19:01:16  * Tekky is opening a ticket on
19:01:24  *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
19:02:17  <Eddi|zuHause> so the fault is upon loading old savegames?
19:02:47  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yup, though saving and reloading will fix it
19:03:05  <Tekky> Eddi|zuHause: Yes, well, the savegame is not that old. It is about one or two weeks old.
19:03:23  <Eddi|zuHause> well, "old" being "last savegame version bump"
19:04:45  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17004 /trunk/src/saveload/ (station_sl.cpp waypoint_sl.cpp): -Fix (r16909): StationRect of loading buoys/waypoints wasn't correctly set when loading 'old' games.
19:07:01  <Tekky> Oh, the bug is fixed already? :) Hehe, Rubidium is fixing bugs faster than I can report them to :)
19:08:12  <Rubidium> Tekky: possibly, I'm not 100% sure
19:08:28  <Rubidium> though you should test r17004 with your savegame
19:09:19  <Rubidium> planetmaker: if you load a post 16909 savegame there should be no problem with the waypoint deletion
19:09:31  <Belugas> but but but... he need to compile it!!
19:09:59  <Rubidium> compiling doesn't take that long
19:10:01  <Tekky> Hmmmm, now I must either await the next nightly build or set up my compiler for building OpenTTD (which I must do soon anzwa
19:10:12  <Tekky> anzwa = anyway (typo)
19:10:27  <Eddi|zuHause> wrong keyboard :p
19:10:48  <Yexo> or download yesterdays nightly and play with that
19:10:48  <TrueBrain> anzwa anzwa anzwa!
19:10:51  <TrueBrain> wassenaar!
19:11:06  <Eddi|zuHause> ok... that's too much for me...
19:11:08  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: definitely, wassen is naar
19:11:09  <Tekky> Yexo: Yesterday's nightly has the same problem.
19:11:17  <Yexo> hmm, right
19:11:17  <Belugas> wazzupmaaaaaan?
19:11:42  <Yexo> but just saving the game and reloading is did fix the problem, so why not do that?
19:12:15  *** Polygon [] has joined #openttd
19:12:40  <Eddi|zuHause> <- interesting :p
19:13:09  <TrueBrain> indeed
19:13:14  <TrueBrain> you found a language where it meant something
19:13:16  <TrueBrain> very interesting
19:14:11  *** Tekky_ [] has joined #openttd
19:14:20  <Tekky_> Yexo: Well, it did not crash when I did that, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the savegame is not corrupted.
19:14:47  <Yexo> the stationrect is not saved in the savegame, so it's correct as soon as you load it
19:15:00  *** thisismynick [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
19:15:38  <TrueBrain> what is your nick?
19:16:10  <Tekky_> Mine? I just got disconnected and my IRC client is waiting for my other nick to get kicked.
19:16:32  <Eddi|zuHause> no, not yours.
19:16:45  *** Tekky was kicked from #openttd by Belugas [your wish is my command]
19:17:08  <Rubidium> very honoured sys admin, would you please me by taking a look why doesn't work?
19:17:32  <TrueBrain> I guess he means me
19:17:45  <Belugas> too precise a request to me honoured
19:17:52  <Tekky_> Ah, thanks Belugas.
19:17:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: prime example of requesting a secondary thing when that secondary thing is not even suitible to solve the original problem
19:18:15  <Belugas> -i+a
19:18:20  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: the VPS is crashed .. completely :p
19:18:22  <TrueBrain> out of memoryu
19:18:27  <TrueBrain> stupid Apache ....
19:18:30  <Eddi|zuHause> suitable?
19:18:37  <Belugas> i think
19:18:38  <Eddi|zuHause> i'll always mix that up ;)
19:19:23  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: there you go
19:19:51  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: thanks :)
19:19:53  *** Tekky_ is now known as Tekky
19:20:01  <Rubidium> if you want a cookie, you've got to come and get it
19:20:06  <Rubidium> before I eat it ;)
19:20:06  <TrueBrain> tempting
19:20:15  <TrueBrain> but I think you eat it in those 3 hours
19:20:19  * Rubidium slaps the spammer that killed
19:21:07  <TrueBrain> yup
19:21:11  <TrueBrain> I should move it to django ...
19:21:13  <TrueBrain> too lazy
19:21:14  <TrueBrain> WT3.1 first
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19:24:37  <OwenS> I wish PBS could do path sharing, as if "You can follow this path as long as you do not exceed X speed"
19:25:27  <Belugas> interesting... we have lost all http connectivity in here.  we can use ftp, https, but not http protocols
19:25:48  <OwenS> Belugas: Your ISP may use transparent HTTP proxying
19:25:59  <TrueBrain> I think his company does :p
19:26:27  <Rubidium> I remember doing that at high school... to block chat sites
19:26:46  <Rubidium> the French teacher didn't like it
19:27:06  <TrueBrain> she couldn't chat? :)
19:27:21  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: no, we had to look for some castle
19:27:21  <Ammler> OwenS: check for advance signals or such like.
19:28:10  <OwenS> wha?
19:28:40  <Rubidium> for the ones that don't know French, ch?teau is French for castle and in URLs that's usually written as chateau
19:28:45  <OwenS> lol
19:29:00  <TrueBrain> oh, they blocked 'chat' specificly
19:29:02  <OwenS> My highschool blocked wikipedia...
19:29:03  <TrueBrain> now it makes sense
19:30:06  <Ammler> OwenS: a patch from michi_cc to extend yapp
19:30:28  <OwenS> aah
19:30:41  <Rubidium> not to mention that me being part admin caused the backup (of the new sysadmin) to fail for about a year
19:30:48  <Ammler> there is also a similar patch, something like "longer path signal"
19:31:42  <OwenS> I was an admin at my school. The sysadmin did not know this for quite a while. He was not amused :P
19:31:52  <Rubidium> we had a course Arabic, so we had one computer with an Arabic office, so we had Arabic filenames... that broke the backup
19:32:02  <OwenS> lol
19:32:36  <TrueBrain> OwenS: last time I had a punk ass gaining admin rights on the local machine (which, for the record, is dead easy on any windows machine) and failed to tell me that ... well .. lets say he had a really horrible month
19:32:51  <OwenS> Not local machine
19:32:52  <TrueBrain> I don't appreciate it when someone hacks my network and doesn't tell me about it .. then tries to do all innocente and sweet ...
19:32:54  <OwenS> Really bad syadmin :p
19:33:08  <OwenS> TBH place was more secure after I was through with it
19:33:11  <TrueBrain> he had a really horrible month ... really horrible ....
19:33:19  <OwenS> The number of shares which I disabled global write access on was ridiculous
19:33:31  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
19:33:36  <TrueBrain> if you find a security problem, fine. REPORT IT
19:33:48  <OwenS> TrueBrain: This was a while ago...
19:33:54  <TrueBrain> asses of 16 year thinking they own the world :p
19:34:17  *** Belugas [~belugas@] has joined #openttd
19:34:20  *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ
19:34:31  <TrueBrain> OwenS: well, I became sysop there by walking into the sysops office and showing him how I could shut down the network with 2 commands :p
19:34:50  <Rubidium> and as icing on the cake... if the (new) sysadmin didn't know how to fix something, they asked me
19:35:01  <Alberth1> :)
19:35:01  <TrueBrain> ghehe :)
19:35:02  <OwenS> Our sysadmin was... the kind who would yell at you if you told him that kind of thing
19:35:18  <OwenS> Then report you further up. Then drag you through hell
19:35:28  <Forconin> Hm, question: Will it ever be possible to have more than 8 companies in a game?
19:35:31  <TrueBrain> if you would not tell me right away, I would do the same :)
19:35:37  <TrueBrain> Forconin: yes; you can have 15
19:35:38  <OwenS> If you did tell him
19:35:48  <Forconin> TrueBrain: You can?
19:35:52  <Forconin> Hm, nice.
19:36:03  <TrueBrain> but if you are a bit reasonable sysop, and someone tells you before or right after, you let him help you :)
19:36:14  <TrueBrain> one of those 16 years old once defaced the school website
19:36:15  * Rubidium remembers jolting the sysadmin to get an OS upgrade ;)
19:36:19  <TrueBrain> he came to me within the hour
19:36:22  <TrueBrain> I had a good long laugh :)
19:36:31  <OwenS> lol
19:36:32  <TrueBrain> he had a very good next month ;)
19:37:19  <TrueBrain> I respect that, if someone defaces a website, and tells you about it :) And makes the deface .. well .. funny :p
19:37:42  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: what? MSDos 3.1 not good enough for you? :p
19:37:44  <OwenS> That reminds me, when I get back, to prod the college sysadmins that they're running a version of apache with lots of security holes
19:37:55  <Rubidium> ... buying a *completely* new network, including computers, and then install Windows 95 on then when Windows XP was about to be released
19:37:58  <TrueBrain> OwenS: you can remove 'a version of'
19:38:12  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: ghehe :)
19:38:18  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Theres running apache. Then theres running a 1 year old version of apache.
19:38:23  <Rubidium> the computers came with Windows 2000
19:38:25  <OwenS> Apache/win32 for that matter...
19:38:43  <TrueBrain> either way .. I was about to write the import of WT3.1 ...
19:38:56  <OwenS> I also should complain about the fact that they can't deploy .net properly
19:39:06  <OwenS> (Their deployment has all the language files broken...)
19:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> fuck... i think the HD is completely dead now
19:39:53  <OwenS> Final complaint: They still have machines with IE6...
19:39:54  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: didn't I told you to send it back? :p
19:40:07  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that is easier said than done
19:40:11  <TrueBrain> OwenS: rolling out .NET in a sane way is IMPOSSIBLE
19:40:19  <TrueBrain> OwenS: same as deploying both Office 2003 and Office 2007
19:40:23  <TrueBrain> which is impossible :s
19:40:36  <TrueBrain> by documentation only Outlook should be the problem .. in reality, it is much bigger
19:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and from "i can't read a sector" to "disk doesn't start up" is kind of a huge jump so suddenly...
19:40:51  <TrueBrain> at the subject, Acrobat Reader 9 can't be used with roaming profiles (Windows AD)
19:40:56  <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Not really. "I can't read a sector" means disk is almost dead
19:41:08  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: pick it up, 10cm above the ground, drop it
19:41:09  <TrueBrain> try again :p
19:41:19  <TrueBrain> OwenS: it was the replacement disk :p
19:41:26  <OwenS> lol
19:42:02  <OwenS> Speaking of Office 2007. I was not pleased when said school sysadmin rolled out Office 2007. Without leaving the prior version there. Two weeks before a coursework deadline
19:42:20  <TrueBrain> :s
19:42:22  <TrueBrain> that is just bad timing
19:42:46  <OwenS> Well, correction: Two weeks before everyone's coursework deadlines
19:43:04  <OwenS> In one month there was a two week holiday and all the coursework would be over. Could he not wait? ...
19:43:28  <TrueBrain> that said: there is never a good timing for such upgrades
19:44:04  <TrueBrain> I once tried to do a network upgrade ... I requested a timeslot for it ... there was NO timeslot for it granted within the next 4 weeks, including weekends and evenings (up to 21:00, I refuse to work after that)
19:44:24  <TrueBrain> (and then you need to know me .. I just pulled the plug the other day and did the replacement :p)
19:44:35  <TrueBrain> "yeah, it failed, it was good we had the replacement ready!"
19:45:31  <Eddi|zuHause> <OwenS> Eddi|zuHause: Not really. "I can't read a sector" means disk is almost dead <- yes, but they are kind of completely different failure classes... one is the failure of the magnetic part, and one is the failure of the mechanic part...
19:45:49  <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: stricly, the first can also be mechanic
19:45:52  <TrueBrain> but I tend to agree with you ;)
19:47:44  <OwenS> I tend to run a SMART analysis every now and again so I know "Hmm, better get a second spare in for the RAID array"
19:50:23  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17005 /trunk/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Add [NoAI]: AIAbstractList::SORT_ASCENDING / SORT_DESCENDING
19:51:07  <OwenS> Thinking of it... I ought to learn how to do Linux softraid rebuilds :p
19:51:39  <TrueBrain> haha, not so easy as one might hope :p
19:51:46  <OwenS> Heh
19:52:01  <OwenS> So not like Solaris ZFS ones - put the new disk in, and tell it taht it's a replacement :p
19:52:19  <TrueBrain> well .. first of all, you need hotswap for that
19:52:21  <TrueBrain> so SATA :p
19:52:25  <TrueBrain> second ... no :p
19:52:37  <OwenS> Solaris ZFS you can even have hot spares in :p
19:52:52  <TrueBrain> yeah, we call it RAID-5
19:52:54  <TrueBrain> but okay
19:53:03  <TrueBrain> well, not by definition
19:53:12  <TrueBrain> hmm .. no, that is bullshit
19:53:15  <TrueBrain> you can always have a hot spare
19:53:33  <OwenS> ZFS does RAID-Z, which is like RAID-5 but faster :p
19:53:44  <TrueBrain> yeah, ZFS is so great :p
19:53:46  <TrueBrain> lol
19:54:05  <OwenS> Available on OS X, FreeBSD and Solaris... but not Linux...
19:54:05  <TrueBrain> but yeah, linux softraid needs ... knowing :p
19:54:36  <TrueBrain> last time we had a drive that failed
19:54:39  <TrueBrain> it just took down the whole machine
19:54:51  <TrueBrain> the softraid kept on trying to access the drive .. over and over and over and over
19:55:33  <OwenS> Reminds me of the mobo I had on which the southbridge went funky
19:55:46  <OwenS> That was fun to diagnose
19:55:48  <TrueBrain> OwenS: sure you are not Bjarni?
19:55:54  <OwenS> lol
19:56:04  <planetmaker> Rubidium: I mainly meant the nightlies. A public server needs those revisions :-)
19:56:23  <OwenS> My desktop has it's RAID array split between a parallel and serial ATA drive as a result of that...
19:56:57  <Rubidium> planetmaker: for the server the fix doesn't matter, because it won't get it, unless you load a pre r16909 savegame
19:57:05  <OwenS> Controller gave the same indications as for a failed HD...
19:57:11  <planetmaker> Rubidium: sure it does
19:57:24  <planetmaker> oh. pre 909
19:57:25  <Rubidium> planetmaker: why?
19:57:26  <planetmaker> no.
19:57:33  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17006 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_map.hpp ai_map.hpp.sq squirrel_export.awk): -Fix (r17005): gcc compile failure
19:57:34  <planetmaker> we're at 973
19:57:59  <Rubidium> and I also said that loading a pre 16909 savegame in 16704, saving it and reloading works around the problem too
19:59:06  <TrueBrain>     utils.TellExtensions("SubProjectInitialize", subProject, argv = argv)
19:59:08  <TrueBrain> TypeError: TellExtensions() got multiple values for keyword argument 'argv'
19:59:10  <TrueBrain> django can be so retarted
20:02:37  <OwenS> TrueBrain: Meh. At least it's not C++ template errors
20:02:43  <OwenS> 20 lines before you even get there :p
20:06:56  <OwenS> Im sure OpenTTD developers are used to C++ errors though :p
20:08:31  <TrueBrain> you learn to read through them :)
20:10:37  <OwenS> Or rather ignore the "Instantiated from here, instantiated from there, instantiated from over here"
20:10:54  <TrueBrain> # Doesn't it make you sad, to see so much love denied, see nothing but a shadowman inside
20:11:01  <TrueBrain> OwenS: exactly!
20:11:26  <Alberth1> and substitute your own nice template type name back in the error mesg before reading it :p
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20:22:03  <TrueBrain> WHIIIIEEEEEeeeeeee, importing english.txt works :)
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20:25:31  * planetmaker hugs TrueBrain :-)
20:25:33  <planetmaker> nice!
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20:27:18  <TrueBrain> enough creativity for today :)
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20:31:55  <TrueBrain> hmm .. that I receive AM is starting to be annoying me ... even when playing sound I hear the radio over the boxes :s
20:34:06  <Eddi|zuHause> hehe, i had that too ;)
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20:43:32  <Zuu> Whoo, dragable waypoints :-)
20:43:41  <TrueBrain> yeah, Rubidium is the best :)
20:44:09  <Zuu> Saw on the logs what was to come, and today we got to test it. :-)
20:45:44  <OwenS> Whoa. OpenTTD at 5spf. Didn't think I'd ever see that happen
20:45:49  <OwenS> (Yes, thats seconds per frame)
20:45:57  <TrueBrain> does it have a fps?
20:46:17  <OwenS> I don't know the actual FPS... but it's beyond unusable
20:46:30  <TrueBrain> no worries, it has a fps :)
20:46:43  <TrueBrain> tps, in our case :p (ticks)
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21:11:58  <Belugas> holly macaroni!!!
21:12:02  * Belugas runs home
21:12:04  <TrueBrain> where?
21:12:05  <TrueBrain> where?
21:12:07  <TrueBrain> oeh, good luck
21:12:10  <TrueBrain> can I suggest to take the car?
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21:19:11  <TrueBrain> boring in here
21:20:14  <frosch123> if you are bored, sometimes it helps to highlight sacro
21:20:15  <TrueBrain> "OpenTTD won't open!" <- /me gniffels at the name
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21:20:23  <TrueBrain> Sacro Sacro Sacro Sacro Sacro Sacro Sacro
21:20:56  <Aali> Mushroom Mushroom
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21:31:34  <Rubidium> DaleStan: reworks the grfcodec makefiles to be like nforenum's. In effect it adds Makefile.local.sample so you can override Makefile stuff without changing one of the versioned Makefiles. It also improves out-of-the-box MinGW compilation
21:32:02  <Rubidium> whether cygwin compilation still works I don't know; I don't have that installed
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21:34:57  <Rubidium> the compile farm also works with those Makefiles ( )
21:35:09  <Rubidium> the only question is whether all the right files are included in the bundle
21:35:35  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: did you manual put the files there? Else the index is broken :(
21:36:23  <TrueBrain> or you didn't have installed the proper callback script? :)
21:36:28  <TrueBrain> (too lazy to check :p)
21:36:32  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: no, I disabled the callback script
21:36:35  <TrueBrain> ah ;)
21:36:57  <TrueBrain> pfew ;)
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21:42:11  <TrueBrain> good night all
21:42:21  <Rubidium> night TrueBrain
21:42:26  <OwenS> night
21:42:35  <Zuu> Good night TrueBrain
21:43:03  <Zuu> I'm soon of to the beach. :-)
21:51:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17007 /trunk/src/lang/serbian.txt: -Fix (r15896): WT2 reverted the ISO code of Serbian
21:52:16  <OwenS> Aww HLL
21:52:27  <OwenS> Who invented Boost::Bind? WHO? BECAUSE IT GENERATES THE MOST OBTUSE ERRORS
21:55:05  <Rubidium> OwenS: Peter Dimov, David Abrahams or Multi Media Ltd.
21:55:49  <OwenS> "/usr/include/boost/bind/bind_template.hpp", line 90:     Where: Instantiated from boost::_bi::bind_t<void, boost::_mfi::mf3<void,::smart_ban_plugin, std::pair<libtorrent::piece_block,::smart_ban_plugin::block_entry>, int, const libtorrent::disk_io_job&>, boost::_bi::list4<boost::_bi::value<boost::shared_ptr<::smart_ban_plugin>>, boost::_bi::value<std::pair<const libtorrent::piece_block,::smart_ban_plugin::block_entry>>,
21:55:51  <OwenS> boost::arg<1>, boost::arg<2>>>::operator()<int, libtorrent::disk_io_job>(int&, const libtorrent::disk_io_job&).    <-- I mean, seriously?
21:56:27  <Rubidium> never seen GCC's STL ones?
21:56:29  *** Zuu [~Zuu@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:56:39  <OwenS> Rubidium: Yes. They're less obtuse!
21:59:11  <Rubidium> you can scrap David Abrahams from the list of suspects
22:00:18  <Rubidium> @calc 39/1255
22:00:18  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0310756972112
22:01:30  <Rubidium> 3% comments, well... if you may classify them as comments; I'd classify 11 (<1%) as comments (for the initial commit of bind.hpp)
22:03:09  <Rubidium> @calc 56/1733
22:03:10  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0323139065205
22:03:25  <Rubidium> oh, it did improve slightly for trunk's version ;)
22:04:46  <OwenS> I will never use Boost willingly. Theres using templates... and theres abusing them to a nonproductive extent
22:05:15  <OwenS> I don't doubt it's got lots of great features. But 10 page errors are not my idea of fun
22:05:39  <OwenS> And, tbh, most of the useful stuff is in Qt anyway
22:08:32  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r17008 /trunk/src/ (rail_gui.cpp window_gui.h): -Fix [FS#3061]: Resize matrix in station build window vertically according to font height.
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22:23:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17009 /branches/0.7/ (7 files in 5 dirs):
22:23:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [0.7] -Backport from trunk/prepare for release:
22:23:31  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Vehicles would wait "very long" when they had nothing to unload and gradual loading was disabled [FS#3054] (r16933)
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22:30:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17010 /tags/0.7.2/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Release: 0.7.2
22:31:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17011 /trunk/ (14 files in 4 dirs):
22:31:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Change [NoAI]: Add AIBaseStation as a parentclass for AIStation and AIWaypoint, and move GetName, SetName and GetLocation to AIBaseStation
22:31:06  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: Remove (nearly) all references to WaypointID and replace them with StationID
22:31:50  <Eddi|zuHause> those releases really drown in here :p
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22:38:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17012 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_basestation.cpp ai_basestation.hpp ai_basestation.hpp.sq): -Add [NoAI]: AIBaseStation::GetConstructionDate
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23:14:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17013 /trunk/src/script/squirrel_helper.hpp:
23:14:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Fix [FS#3074]: concatenating strings in Squirrel when non-ASCII strings were
23:14:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: received from OpenTTD failed. The number of bytes in an UTF-8 encoded string
23:14:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: isn't always the same as the number of characters in the decoded (into wchars)
23:14:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: string
23:23:01  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r17014 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (ai_engine.cpp ai_engine.hpp ai_engine.hpp.sq): -Add [NoAI]: AIEngine::GetDesignDate
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23:54:56  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r17015 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_content.cpp: -Fix [FS#3075]: infinite recursion in content dependency checking
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