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00:00:21 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 00:07:50 <orudge> woo, a fresh install of OS/2 actually seems to be working for me now in VMWare 00:09:26 *** vittorio [~vittorio@93-38-74-20.ip69.fastwebnet.it] has joined #openttd 00:09:38 <vittorio> hi 00:09:46 *** vittorio is now known as koda 00:10:12 <koda> first time visit, so nick is wrong ^^ 00:11:01 <PeterT> :-) 00:11:18 <PeterT> orudge: is there any benefit in using OS/2? 00:11:28 <orudge> well 00:11:38 <orudge> I don't use it personally, but I created the OS/2 port of OpenTTD 00:11:42 <orudge> but have been unable to build new binaries for a few months 00:11:49 <orudge> I'd like to get some 0.7.5 and 1.0.0-beta 1 binaries out :) 00:12:24 <PeterT> why do you make binaries for it? 00:12:32 <PeterT> is it a popular system to play openttd on? 00:12:35 <glx> because we have users 00:12:35 <orudge> so that those who do use OS/2 can play OpenTTD 00:12:46 <orudge> OpenTTD is quite popular amongst OS/2 users it seems 00:12:51 <orudge> there aren't that many OS/2 users 00:12:54 <orudge> but there are some :) 00:13:21 <PeterT> is this how ugly all OS/2 desktops are? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Os2W4.png 00:13:35 <orudge> probably 00:13:37 *** Chillosophy [~fu@195-241-120-76.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [] 00:13:42 <_ln> no, that's the Warp 4 desktop 00:13:58 <PeterT> looks quite old 00:14:01 <orudge> well 00:14:02 <orudge> it is quite old 00:14:07 <orudge> eComStation is much more modern 00:14:11 <orudge> www.ecomstation.com 00:14:13 <orudge> although 00:14:14 <orudge> it's still OS/2 00:14:19 <orudge> but you can run many modern apps on it 00:14:31 <orudge> many more than people probably realise 00:14:45 <koda> i've read of the deprecation of the macosx port 00:14:57 <koda> has someone showed up? 00:15:10 <orudge> well, I don't think we have an "official" OS X developer at the moment 00:15:19 <Eddi|zuHause> only a handful of fixes, not an official developer 00:15:28 <PeterT> What happened to Bjarni? 00:15:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and especially noone to code 10.6 support 00:15:47 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: who? :p 00:15:54 <glx> RL issues 00:16:02 <PeterT> the mac osx port guy 00:16:08 * orudge does have a shiny new MacBook Pro with 10.6, but alas, he's not particularly familiar with the OS X-specifics bits of OS X programming :p 00:16:30 <_ln> excuses 00:16:43 <glx> and apple is good at breaking compatibility when API is updated 00:16:48 <orudge> quite 00:16:56 <orudge> of course, I can support OpenTTD on Wine on OS X ;) 00:16:58 <orudge> as hideous as it may be 00:17:11 <koda> well i'm going to check out the sources and see if i can lend a hand :) 00:17:22 <PeterT> I don't understand wine 00:17:24 <PeterT> on linux 00:17:28 <PeterT> running openttd 00:17:35 <PeterT> where is the openttd.cfg? 00:17:40 <PeterT> not in the binary dir, anyways 00:17:40 <orudge> it's wherever you left it 00:17:43 <orudge> well 00:17:52 <orudge> on Windows, openttd.cfg goes into My Documents, I do believe 00:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: same place as on windows 00:17:54 <orudge> by default 00:17:59 <glx> in mydocs 00:18:05 <PeterT> I looked there 00:18:06 <PeterT> well 00:18:11 <PeterT> I'll have to test it again later 00:18:14 <PeterT> I'm on windows now 00:18:46 <glx> anyway why run openttd with wine when there's a native port 00:18:48 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: by default, mydocs is mapped on /home/<user> 00:19:16 <PeterT> anyway why run openttd with wine when there's a native port <-- some libraries aren't statically linked 00:19:32 <glx> compile yourself :) 00:19:39 <glx> it's very easy on linux 00:19:41 *** tdev [~tdev@p508ECE27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:19:47 <PeterT> you don't need to tell me 00:19:52 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: but most distributions offer a correct package 00:20:16 <glx> and now most libs are linked statically IIRC 00:20:30 <glx> especially ICU 00:21:28 <PeterT> IS2.0-beta5 didn't have them statically linked 00:21:43 <glx> it's not official 00:21:53 <glx> I don't care about non official builds :) 00:21:54 <PeterT> keeping in mind IS binaries are compiled with the compile farm, same thing that compiles nightlies.... 00:26:04 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77D56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 00:26:30 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77D77.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 00:27:40 <koda> openttd is the first crossplatform game i see that is not build with cmake 00:27:44 <koda> built* 00:28:01 <orudge> you've not seen many games, perhaps, I guess ;) 00:29:08 <koda> yeah not many :p 00:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's funny that we don't use cmake _because_ of the cross-platform-ness ;) 00:30:15 <koda> what do you mean? 00:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> with cmake it was impossible to set up an osx cross compiler 00:30:53 *** Zuu [Zuu@c-12f6e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:31:54 <koda> ah that's bad :( 00:32:21 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not "bad", we were like the first people to ever try to do that... 00:32:30 <planetmaker> there are not many places which do use a cross compiler 00:32:58 <koda> yeah a native build environment is always better, if possibile 00:33:29 <glx> but we did an impossible thing :) 00:34:08 <koda> i don't get this: 00:34:10 <koda> checking SDL... OSX, skipping 00:34:10 <koda> checking COCOA... found 00:34:21 <orudge> well 00:34:22 <glx> SDL is broken on OSX 00:34:26 <orudge> it's looking for the SDL library, which isn't there 00:34:27 <glx> not our fault 00:34:29 <orudge> oh, well, yes 00:34:40 <koda> what do you mean broken? 00:34:40 <planetmaker> well... not broken. But slower 00:34:46 <planetmaker> you don't use it on windows either 00:34:54 <koda> only on linux? 00:35:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and on half a dozen other platforms 00:35:18 <glx> we can use it on windows (but only for mingw by default, and dynamically loaded) 00:35:40 <PeterT> is the compile farm a dedicated server/computer? 00:35:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes 00:35:51 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 00:35:53 <glx> and it's just a layer around native calls, so better use native calls 00:35:59 <planetmaker> it's certainly glx' laptop or iphone 00:36:24 <PeterT> Lol 00:36:39 <PeterT> well, if I really wanted, I could do it on my laptop 00:36:40 <glx> not really dedicated, but VMs on our server 00:36:50 <PeterT> over a span of weeks 00:37:14 <planetmaker> I only work on my laptop on OpenTTD ;-) 00:37:57 <koda> lol, -I/Users/mike/Documents/darwine/usr/include/libpng12 , any non-mike people will have hard times at compiling :) 00:38:32 <planetmaker> wth is that from? 00:38:52 <koda> from svn in the CFLAGS configure output 00:39:20 <Eddi|zuHause> well, of course, every other person will get a different configure output 00:39:41 <planetmaker> configure does what it says: configure for where it is being built and installed 00:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what configure is for 00:40:02 <koda> yeah, too bad my name is vittorio and i have no user called mike :) 00:40:27 <Eddi|zuHause> then your system is heavily screwed up 00:40:31 <planetmaker> ^ 00:40:44 <PeterT> It's so that your linux doesn't compile windows files 00:40:51 <PeterT> and vice-versa 00:41:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ... and his osx doesn't compile at all :p 00:41:59 <PeterT> nope, osx users must compile with shovel and ax 00:43:39 <koda> well, i got up to the linking stage 00:43:50 <PeterT> let me guess, an error? 00:44:05 <koda> missing png12, but that's fixable 00:44:09 <PeterT> ah 00:44:19 <PeterT> are you compiling clean trunk or a patch build? 00:44:46 <koda> trunk, with some patches at the makefile.src.in 00:44:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know of any mike person ever involved with the build system... 00:44:48 <planetmaker> for that kind of error the question is irrelevant ;-) 00:45:27 <planetmaker> koda: so... you modify makefile.src.in, add a mike there and wonder about? ;-) 00:45:56 <koda> but i did not add any mike :-S 00:46:24 <peter1138> not our fault if your system is messed up :D 00:46:28 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF9BA1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 00:46:43 * koda longs for a cmake build system 00:46:56 <peter1138> pkg-config libpng --cflags 00:46:56 <peter1138> -I/usr/include/libpng12 00:47:13 <peter1138> yours says /Users/mike ... etc 00:48:15 <koda> i'm going to investigate that after i get a working build... 00:48:39 <PeterT> if 00:49:13 <peter1138> well you need that fixed to _get_ a working build 00:49:16 <planetmaker> koda: you can always specify the linker path manually 00:49:35 <planetmaker> maybe you have funny environ settings 00:49:43 <peter1138> btw, is SDL really slower on OSX, or was it just slower on bjarni's system with 8bpp? 00:49:45 <planetmaker> +ment 00:49:50 <peter1138> if it is, as said, just a wrapper... 00:50:17 <Eddi|zuHause> no, it was said: sdl on windows is just a wrapper 00:50:27 <planetmaker> in order to give really an answer I'd have to really test that :-) 00:51:11 *** MyCatSchemes [~mycatverb@5ac7ac11.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:56:39 *** KritiK [~Maxim@78-106-229-213.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 01:05:35 <_ln> koda: build system is not the issue with the Mac version (nor others) 01:06:19 <_ln> koda: besides, cmake is a pain in the ... if you want to compile for a system which doesn't have it installed and you don't have root access. 01:07:25 <koda> ... which is rarely the case 01:07:46 <_ln> depends 01:07:57 <koda> i was just puzzled by the configure script, it's really well done 01:08:22 <koda> but it's the first i analyze so i'm a little lost 01:08:22 <planetmaker> did you try with an unpatched build system? 01:08:38 <planetmaker> e.g. w/o mods to any makefile or so? 01:09:09 <koda> planetmaker: of course, but it fails at crashlog.cpp 01:09:19 <_ln> fails how? 01:09:27 <planetmaker> ^ 01:09:42 <koda> missing includes, png.h and ft2build.h 01:10:05 <koda> i just added the proper dir in the makefile.inc.in 01:10:12 <planetmaker> well, I guess your system is really a bit need of maintenance. 01:10:13 <_ln> hmmm.... hmmmmm. you don't have X11 installed? 01:10:31 <orudge> woo 01:10:32 <planetmaker> did you try sudo port install libpng ? 01:10:35 * orudge should have an OS/2 build again soon :) 01:10:40 <orudge> whether it'll all work or not is nanother matter 01:10:42 <orudge> *another 01:11:51 <koda> lipng is already installed i just don't know how to tell the configure script where it is 01:12:06 <orudge> can you not just download and reinstall libpng? it's not a particularly large library 01:12:19 <glx> configure checks for include and libs usability too 01:12:21 *** roboboy [3aad2910@webchat.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 01:12:34 <glx> it it detected it then it should work 01:13:12 <koda> it detects it, but says it doesn't find it at linking stage 01:13:46 <_ln> orudge: your effort for the OS/2 version is much appreciated although I'm not a regular user anymore, not even on vm. 01:14:18 <orudge> heh, no problem 01:17:44 <_ln> what editor are you using on OS/2, btw? 01:18:36 <orudge> well, so far, I haven't needed to do any major editing. In the past, I've just used e for quick edits, but I can't say I especially like it. Recommendations are appreciated 01:18:40 <orudge> I guess I could probably get vi for OS/2, I'm sure 01:18:57 <koda> vi FTW 01:19:54 *** Chrill [~chrischri@80.216.60.117] has joined #openttd 01:20:04 <_ln> orudge: http://sourceforge.net/projects/efte/ (a fork of the best editor on the planet, FTE) 01:21:01 <_ln> (OS/2 binary is under 1.0 in the Files section) 01:22:59 <koda> cool, compiling out of source fails :\ 01:27:20 <sparr> can anyone recommend a good [semi]public server? I'd like to keep playing multiplayer, but it's too easy for people to ruin the game on completely open servers 01:28:27 <planetmaker> easy-peasy-luckland is constantly advertizing 01:28:59 <PeterT> it's annoying 01:29:07 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B77D77.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 01:29:25 <PeterT> sparr: join #jonty for the answer... 01:30:36 <Xaroth> isn't advertising the channel where he could find such a server, kinda answering him already? 01:30:37 *** KenjiE20|LT [~KenjiE20@host86-170-57-13.range86-170.btcentralplus.com] has joined #openttd 01:30:46 *** nicfer1 [~nicolas@190.50.40.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:31:16 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.19.96.67] has quit [Quit: ????] 01:33:42 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7680C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 01:34:53 <PeterT> Xaroth: No. 01:35:15 <Xaroth> then I agree to disagree. 01:35:59 <orudge> hmm 01:36:03 * orudge twiddles his thumbs while ICU compiles 01:36:42 <PeterT> madness, you say? 01:37:34 <orudge> quite 01:38:59 <peter1138> koda, works here 01:39:13 <koda> must be an osx issue 01:39:18 <peter1138> although it won't run, as some stuff under bin isn't there 01:39:20 <PeterT> Or a koda issue 01:39:22 <Xaroth> osx IS an issue :P 01:39:54 <koda> ok i'm past the linking stage, only 2 symbols missing 01:40:11 <koda> _iconv and _iconv_open 01:41:06 <Eddi|zuHause> your system is seriously screwed up or you simply didn't install all requirements 01:42:02 <koda> and the third option is... 01:42:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ... screw osx 01:42:29 <koda> :D 01:42:33 *** JVassie^ [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:50:36 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:00:53 <koda> ok, linking done 02:01:01 <koda> after that? make bundle? 02:01:13 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-198-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Something strange must have happened...] 02:02:31 <sparr> is it intentional that the city airport limit applies to airports very far away if they are 'claimed' by the city (named after it)? how is such a claim determined? 02:02:52 <glx> koda: cd bin && ./openttd 02:03:07 <PeterT> is there a way to compile only one specific language file, and not all of them? 02:03:20 <glx> yes remove the other 02:03:35 <koda> failed to find a sounds set (etc) 02:03:47 * koda goes reading readme.txt again 02:03:58 <PeterT> well, I haven't modified the others, so it won't compile them, but I don't want to compile the ENTIRE source all over again 02:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> koda: that means it's working ;) 02:04:13 <PeterT> just english.txt -> english.lng 02:04:32 <glx> any change in english.txt means change in strings.h 02:04:46 <PeterT> ah 02:04:47 <glx> implies recompile 02:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> almost all files depend on strings.h 02:05:44 <glx> changes in stdafx.h are nice too :) 02:06:27 <koda> Eddi|zuHause: yep, had any doubts? ;) 02:06:36 <PeterT> what happened: http://paste.openttd.org/220790 02:06:41 <Eddi|zuHause> koda: yes, plenty 02:07:14 <glx> PeterT: wrong syntax in english_us.txt 02:07:18 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: you screwed up the file? 02:07:32 <PeterT> I changed it, yes 02:08:32 <glx> hmm you added UTF8 BOM ? 02:08:41 <PeterT> this is all I changed: http://paste.openttd.org/220791 02:09:07 <glx> -##name English (US) 02:09:07 <glx> +##name English (US) 02:09:14 <glx> yup UTF8 BOM 02:09:31 <glx> blame your text editor :) 02:09:47 <glx> lang files are UTF8 without BOM 02:09:51 <PeterT> ah 02:10:50 *** tdev [~tdev@p508ECE27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:11:06 <PeterT> what do you edit the lang files with? 02:11:22 <glx> MSVC, notepad++, ... 02:11:32 <PeterT> Ok, MSVC it is 02:12:04 <koda> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/24468/screen-capture.png 02:12:37 <PeterT> thanks, it works now! 02:16:31 <koda> file bin/openttd 02:16:32 <koda> openttd: Mach-O 64-bit executable x86_64 02:18:50 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tsch?ss] 02:24:50 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9E90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:26:54 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9D22.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 02:29:53 <PeterT> logo done thanks to glx and Eddi|zuHause: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?p=843964#p843964 02:41:30 <PeterT> it seems koda just got an account 02:41:42 <koda> :) 02:41:51 <PeterT> what are you replying to/ 02:42:06 <koda> this project sounds challenging enough for me to hang around 02:42:18 <PeterT> have you seen my logo? 02:42:29 <PeterT> You have a blank signature, maybe you should add it :-) 02:42:37 <koda> i'm posting some hope in the "future of macosx" :) 02:43:02 <koda> yeah nice logo :D 02:43:11 <PeterT> thanks 02:45:44 *** Majo [~blwyj57@77-253-136-43.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #openttd 02:45:45 <Majo> hi 02:45:59 <Majo> anybody on? I have a quick question 02:47:49 <Chrill> yes? 02:48:05 <Chrill> I'll do my best to help, Majo 02:48:10 <Majo> I downloaded europe map 02:48:27 <Majo> and i've changed date to 2015 so I can build biggest airports 02:48:30 <PeterT> yes 02:48:53 <Majo> but I can't do it anywhere - it flashes me that cities councils are concerned with noise 02:49:09 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, they do that 02:49:13 <Chrill> Advanced Settings 02:49:18 <Chrill> you can turn off the noise level thingie there 02:49:31 <Majo> in economy part? 02:49:40 <PeterT> under stations 02:49:55 <PeterT> Stations -> Allow town restricted noise level, etc.. 02:50:10 *** Chrill [~chrischri@80.216.60.117] has quit [Quit: Sleepsieeee] 02:51:01 <Majo> thanks 02:51:07 <koda> i wonder if i can now try the sdl video backend... 02:51:14 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has quit [Quit: Sleep.] 02:51:20 <Majo> damn, I've searched like for an hour the answer 02:51:21 <orudge> hmm, IPv6 is proving a problem on OS/2 02:51:57 <Majo> thanks, and also congratz for devs for 1.0b! 02:52:16 *** Majo [~blwyj57@77-253-136-43.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [] 02:53:25 <orudge> woo, enough hackery to get the first file to compile 02:54:50 <Eddi|zuHause> can't configure turn off ipv6? 02:55:10 <orudge> nope 02:55:33 *** Splex__ [~splex@n058152254152.netvigator.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:55:42 <orudge> however, some tweaking and adding of stuff to os_abstraction.h in theory should be all I need 02:55:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so all or nothing... 02:55:44 <orudge> let's see how it goes 02:55:52 <orudge> well, that plus a few #ifdefs 02:57:37 <PeterT> @seen koda 02:57:37 <DorpsGek> PeterT: koda was last seen in #openttd 6 minutes and 30 seconds ago: <koda> i wonder if i can now try the sdl video backend... 02:58:02 <koda> hm? 03:01:45 <PeterT> nothing 03:02:04 <PeterT> koda: will you put my logo in your sig? 03:02:55 <koda> PeterT: http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?avatar=29651_1259718482.gif this one? 03:03:22 <koda> PeterT: you wrote "Apple requires you to to purchase a machine for which development is so much harder." 03:03:54 <koda> actually developing for iphone uses 90% the same apis of standard macs 03:04:15 <koda> so if you learn one platform you automatically learn the other one 03:04:25 *** Splex [~splex@pcd345041.netvigator.com] has joined #openttd 03:04:29 <koda> and if wouldn't call that "hard development" :) 03:04:36 <koda> s/if/i/ 03:06:00 <PeterT> macs are stupid 03:06:02 <PeterT> so restricted 03:06:13 <PeterT> they made jailbreaking iPhones/ipods illegal 03:06:26 <PeterT> koda: put this code in your sig 03:06:26 <PeterT> [url=http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=46479][img]http://www.tt-forums.net/download/file.php?id=121962[/img][/url] 03:06:36 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9D22.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Quit: Die Nützlichkeit der Götter war schon immer eine zweifelhafte Sache. Man wusste nie so genau, wie man sie wirksam einsetzen konnte, ohne dass sie gleich b] 03:07:10 *** DarkED [~J@cpe-075-176-105-070.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 03:07:19 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8d77e.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:07:20 <koda> that has nothing to do with development :) 03:07:38 <PeterT> pweez 03:08:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <PeterT> they made jailbreaking iPhones/ipods illegal <-- that's probably void if they wanted to go to court 03:08:43 <Eddi|zuHause> reverse engineering and stuff is legal for "providing compatibility" 03:08:53 <Eddi|zuHause> in most jurisdictions 03:09:01 <PeterT> hopefully it is 03:09:47 *** zodttd2 [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 03:10:17 <PeterT> Nice sig koda 03:10:41 <koda> ;) 03:12:27 *** zodtttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 03:14:01 <koda> avatar uploaded too 03:16:53 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:17:33 <PeterT> Lol avatar 03:17:52 *** zodttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #openttd 03:18:56 *** zodttd2 [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:21:01 <PeterT> i'm off 03:21:05 <PeterT> thanks for the help 03:21:16 <koda> bye PeterT 03:21:22 <PeterT> bye koda 03:21:32 *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: Bye all] 03:24:57 *** zodtttd [~me@user-0c90n1c.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:27:52 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 03:35:11 *** KenjiE20|LT [~KenjiE20@host86-170-57-13.range86-170.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:36:00 <koda> well i'm off too 03:36:02 <koda> bye all 03:36:08 *** koda [~vittorio@93-38-74-20.ip69.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Quit: koda] 03:52:22 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 04:01:46 *** welshdragon [~markmac@client-82-26-76-175.bmly.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: welshdragon] 04:27:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: orudge * r18656 /trunk/src/thread/thread_os2.cpp: -Feature: Add event semaphore support for OS/2 04:32:14 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 04:35:15 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.222.119] has joined #openttd 04:38:25 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:ccef:3c32:fe53:c6cc] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:55:26 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm63.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #openttd 05:15:17 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 05:15:30 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 05:35:19 <orudge> hmm, well, it seems I shall have to do some more tweaking and prodding to get OpenTTD's networking to work properly on a system where IPv6 isn't supported, but that I may do tomorrow 05:50:09 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds] 06:13:42 *** tokai [~tokai@p5B2B2DA3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 06:15:56 *** tokai [~tokai@p5B2B0E69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 06:15:59 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 06:31:05 *** kd5pbo [~kd5pbo@adsl-99-163-83-110.dsl.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 06:45:38 *** worldemar [~woldemar@213.178.46.47] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:11:42 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 07:14:04 *** George [~George@212.113.107.216] has joined #openttd 07:24:22 <roboboy> hello 07:25:37 *** tokai [~tokai@p5B2B0E69.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 07:27:57 *** tokai [~tokai@p5B2B0BF1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 07:28:00 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 07:55:05 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.136.241] has joined #openttd 07:55:51 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@140.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 07:56:11 <Terkhen> good morning 07:56:53 *** Lord [~Lord@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 07:58:09 <andythenorth> morning 08:01:34 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:06:29 *** Lord [~Lord@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 08:06:31 *** Lord [~Lord@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 08:06:34 *** Lord [~Lord@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 08:06:56 *** LordAro [~LordAro@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 08:08:32 *** LordAro [~LordAro@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [] 08:08:51 *** LordAro [~LordAro@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 08:32:00 *** LordAro [~LordAro@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 08:35:11 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 08:37:58 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.136.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:43:26 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@140.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 08:48:14 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:48:16 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.136.241] has joined #openttd 08:49:38 *** JVassie^ [~TheExile^@nelocat2.gotadsl.co.uk] has joined #openttd 08:53:52 <sparr> what is the optimal design for a single track handling two way traffic? 08:54:15 <peter1138> whatever doesn't jam 08:54:45 <sparr> I can't come up with anything that handles more than [the number of parallel tracks at the waiting points]+2 trains 08:54:54 <sparr> err, +1 08:55:19 <sparr> can you be more specific on the topic of what doesn't jam? 08:55:38 <peter1138> you need passing places if you want more 08:56:37 <sparr> yes, but wide passing places? 08:57:24 <sparr> with just one extra track at the passing place i cant find a design that works for more than 3 trains 08:58:37 <roboboy> try using pre signals to block/allow trains in between passing lanes 08:58:59 <peter1138> if you're using path signals properly it won't jam until it's absolutely full 09:00:12 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@39.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 09:00:21 <roboboy> but if the train needs to get in to a passing lane thats taken wont path signals not help? 09:00:56 <sparr> my problem is when there are trains in both passing lanes, and trains on both sides of the passing lanes on the single track 09:01:12 <sparr> if one of those sides is the end of the line, the system jams 09:01:57 <peter1138> roboboy, if it's taken, how will it get in it? 09:02:10 <roboboy> bah 09:02:28 <roboboy> if its in the previous passing lane 09:02:31 <Brianetta> sparr: If you're using path signals, one of the passing tracks should be the single track 09:02:38 <Brianetta> That is, there should only be two signals 09:02:42 <sparr> peter1138: have an example screenshot, server, or save showing the proper way to use path signals? 09:03:03 <sparr> for this, not in general 09:03:19 <sparr> Brianetta: where? 09:03:35 <Brianetta> sparr: At the places in the passing place where you'd like trains to wait. 09:03:40 <Brianetta> That is, the exits. 09:03:48 <Brianetta> One in each direction, usually. 09:04:24 <sparr> if those are the only signals, then won't the first train that enters the track reserve (or block) the entire thing? 09:04:38 <Brianetta> Here's a general rule for path signals: Put them where you want trains to stop. If having a train stop at the signal would get int he way, don't put the signal there. 09:05:34 <Brianetta> Which version of openttd are you using? 09:05:39 <sparr> ha 09:05:52 <sparr> 0.7.5, 0.8-svn, 1.0-svn, and various patched versions 09:06:20 * Brianetta compiles 0.7.5 09:06:39 <Brianetta> I'll make you a saved game with many trains on a basic siongle line 09:06:47 <sparr> thanks 09:06:57 <sparr> i've probably got whatever version you already have compiled 09:07:03 <sparr> if you want to use something other than 0.7.5 09:07:08 <Brianetta> 0.7.1 and some non-recent trunk 09:07:22 <sparr> oh, wow :) 09:07:24 <sparr> maybe not then 09:07:26 <peter1138> sparr, if will load in 0.7.5 09:07:38 * Brianetta is in mid-compile 09:07:43 <Brianetta> won't take ling 09:07:45 <Brianetta> long 09:08:39 <sparr> another item on my simple-patches-to-write list... replace "VERSION MISMATCH" with a message that gives the version the server is using... i hate having to go to the web to find out 09:09:06 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/passing.png 09:09:33 <Brianetta> That's pretty much it 09:09:39 <peter1138> sparr, it's ... shown in the in-game server list 09:09:54 <sparr> ok, mentally adjusting to drive/signals on the left... 09:10:00 <Brianetta> peter1138: Some of us specify the game info on the cammand line 09:10:15 <peter1138> yes, but then you already know the details of the server... 09:10:23 <Brianetta> unless it got upgraded 09:10:32 <sparr> peter1138: in your picture, there is a train approaching from the top right, which has the track reserved up to the signal, yes? 09:10:40 <peter1138> yes 09:10:55 <peter1138> i have another one of those passing spots 09:11:02 <peter1138> and another station of the same size 09:11:07 <peter1138> max capacity is 7 trains 09:11:18 <sparr> so the passing spot is one way... i think i get it 09:12:04 <Brianetta> Making it two-way without having somebody to make decisions (a signalman) isn't practical. All automatic passing places are one way. 09:12:30 <Brianetta> On narrow gauge lines, the points are often spring loaded. 09:15:34 <roboboy> does the dedicated server variant of OpenTTD use significantly less resources? 09:15:47 <sparr> I was trying to signal the "passing track" as two-way 09:15:54 <Brianetta> roboboy: No. 09:16:03 <sparr> instead of having each direction pass on a specific side 09:16:06 <roboboy> ok thanx 09:16:11 <Brianetta> roboboy: It doesn't require an X server, though 09:16:26 <Brianetta> so the machine makes a RAM and CPU saving there 09:16:27 <roboboy> ok 09:16:35 <Brianetta> unless you ruin X anyway 09:16:37 <Brianetta> er 09:16:39 <Brianetta> run X anyway 09:17:18 <Brianetta> sparr: Common practice is to put stations on passing places. These, two, should have two one-way platforms. 09:19:48 *** Ammler [~ammler@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 09:19:48 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 09:20:32 *** Hirundo [~Hirundo@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 09:20:55 *** TrueBrain_ [~truebrain@145.118.72.64] has joined #openttd 09:20:57 *** TrueBrain [~truebrain@145.118.72.64] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:21:06 *** Ammler [~ammler@salieri.openttdcoop.org] has joined #openttd 09:28:00 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd 09:29:59 <sparr> Brianetta: why? 09:30:15 <Brianetta> Be more specific. 09:30:55 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has quit [Quit: Rhamphoryncus] 09:31:43 <sparr> why would you put stations there? 09:32:54 <Brianetta> Because it's likely thst your trains will be stopping there anyway. 09:35:10 <sparr> but there's nothing there for a station to accomplish 09:35:28 <Brianetta> Then you could have thought about your track a little better (: 09:38:15 <sparr> ha 09:38:31 <sparr> the long distance rail intemtionally avoids industries :-p 09:38:40 <sparr> also, spelling failures indicate time to sleep 09:41:29 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-0bf4e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 09:42:46 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]] 09:45:53 *** phalax [~phalax@84.19.128.89] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:46:23 *** phalax [~phalax@84.19.128.89] has joined #openttd 09:52:07 *** tokai [~tokai@p5B2B0BF1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:54:31 *** tokai [~tokai@p5B2B0128.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 09:54:34 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 10:10:12 <sparr> i encountered a bug earlier 10:10:31 <sparr> had an airport with an adjacent bus terminal with an adjacent bus terminal that was not the same station 10:10:45 <sparr> was unable to give a bus orders to visit the first (attached to the airport) bus terminal 10:11:02 <sparr> clicking on the terminal or the airport (with the Go To cursor) had no effect 10:11:11 <sparr> going to try to duplicate it when i get a chance, then file a bug report with a save 10:13:09 *** Doorslammer [~monarodoo@119.11.27.45] has joined #openttd 10:13:18 *** Coco-Banana-Man [~Stephan.D@p5B2D9D22.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 10:15:43 *** Doorslammer [~monarodoo@119.11.27.45] has quit [] 10:26:25 *** Taytay [~quassel@fantominus.titilambert.org] has joined #openttd 10:26:52 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:26:54 <Taytay> hey, is there cargo destination in svn ? 10:29:35 <Zuu> Not in trunk if that is what you are trying to say. 10:30:23 <Zuu> There is the cargoist project, but they use git (not svn) and it is separate from the trunk. 10:31:42 <Taytay> Zuu: ok ! where can i find the repo ? I just found a mercurial on the wiki, but there is an error when i launch make 10:33:03 <Zuu> Check the development forum (forum 33) 10:33:23 <Taytay> oki ! thanks 10:33:39 <jonty-comp> there's bundles on the openttdcoop compile farm 10:33:41 <jonty-comp> http://bundles.openttdcoop.org/cargodist/g714743faM-cargodist/ 10:39:10 <Zuu> I'd recommend reading the first post in the cargodist thread at least: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=41992 10:39:22 <Zuu> There you get an introduction to the work. 10:47:53 *** NeosaD [~Alty@182.Red-81-43-201.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #openttd 10:47:54 <NeosaD> Buenas!!!! 10:48:01 <NeosaD> ;) 10:48:19 <__ln> buenos d?as 10:54:26 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1EEF5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 11:11:23 *** welshdragon [~markmac@client-82-26-76-175.bmly.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 11:24:49 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has joined #openttd 11:26:33 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-088-069-248-014.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 11:36:33 *** Elessar [FzWDLksbpB@2001:41d0:1:d1a4::12] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:38:31 *** Elessar [jmr3OiJZdO@verne.ortolo.eu] has joined #openttd 11:38:56 *** Zuu [~Zuu@c-0bf4e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:39:40 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tsch?ss] 11:40:51 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 12:06:37 *** DarkED [~J@cpe-075-176-105-070.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 12:15:34 *** KenjiE20 [~KenjiE20@92.19.96.67] has joined #openttd 12:16:22 *** DarkED [~J@cpe-075-176-105-070.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 12:18:45 *** SHADOW-XIII [~Miranda@cpc2-lewi3-0-0-cust462.bmly.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 12:18:55 <SHADOW-XIII> hi guys 12:20:00 <SHADOW-XIII> just wanted to ask about availability of OTTD for ARM chips (linux) ? no chance for official support with everyday builds ? 12:21:18 <Rubidium> SHADOW-XIII: use Debian 12:22:07 <Rubidium> https://buildd.debian.org/build.php?&pkg=openttd&arch=armel <- they've got binaries since 0.6.0 12:23:10 <Rubidium> adding it to our compile farm is tricky because there are quite a few distributions and... at least two flavours of arm binaries 12:23:28 <Rubidium> https://buildd.debian.org/build.php?&pkg=openttd&arch=arm <- the other flavour of arm (has binaries 0.5.0-0.6.3) 12:41:39 <FauxFaux> Cough opensuse build service cough. 12:44:46 *** SHADOW-XIV [~Miranda@cpc2-lewi3-0-0-cust462.bmly.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 12:46:10 *** zar [seppa3@hopeatilhi.cs.tut.fi] has joined #openttd 12:46:14 <SHADOW-XIV> Rubidium: but nothing close to nightly one ... :/ 12:46:19 <SHADOW-XIV> like beta 1.0 12:46:25 <zar> hello 12:46:33 <planetmaker> build it yourself, SHADOW-XI 12:46:48 <planetmaker> salut zar 12:48:13 *** tokai [~tokai@p5B2B0128.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:49:15 *** welshdragon [~markmac@client-82-26-76-175.bmly.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: welshdragon] 12:49:42 *** welshdragon [~markmac@client-82-26-76-175.bmly.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 12:50:22 *** SHADOW-XIII [~Miranda@cpc2-lewi3-0-0-cust462.bmly.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:50:28 *** tokai [~tokai@p5B2B31B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 12:50:31 *** mode/#openttd [+v tokai] by ChanServ 12:52:11 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF995E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 12:59:48 <SHADOW-XIV> http://www.gamertagradio.com/forums/showthread.php?p=76097#post76097 OnLive in action, 48minutes video 13:17:27 *** SHADOW-XIV [~Miranda@cpc2-lewi3-0-0-cust462.bmly.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, THE BEST ! - http://miranda-im.org] 13:19:27 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@155.157.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd 13:21:17 *** lugo [~lugo@mgdb-4db8c43b.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 13:25:40 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:49be:ee4e:79b2:18ed] has joined #openttd 13:25:43 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 13:28:08 *** Varivar [~Varivar@ip5653c04a.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 13:28:48 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7680C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 13:29:19 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 13:31:14 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7680C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 13:32:08 *** Lakie [~Lakie@91.84.251.149] has joined #openttd 13:33:22 *** Varivar [~Varivar@ip5653c04a.direct-adsl.nl] has left #openttd [Ik ga weg] 13:34:26 *** Fuco [~dota.keys@188.123.106.105] has joined #openttd 13:36:49 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.136.241] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 13:38:12 *** lobstar [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 13:43:21 *** lobster [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:55:56 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 14:04:14 <Belugas> hello 14:05:36 <planetmaker> buenos dias, Belugas 14:07:27 *** jpm_ [~pekka@kone.suomen4g.fi] has joined #openttd 14:08:48 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.136.241] has joined #openttd 14:09:18 *** jpm [~pekka@kone.suomen4g.fi] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:11:40 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.222.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:13:47 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.222.119] has joined #openttd 14:22:18 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.222.119] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:24:05 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has joined #openttd 14:24:13 *** ecke [~ecke@211.143.broadband13.iol.cz] has joined #openttd 14:24:20 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.222.119] has joined #openttd 14:24:44 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7680C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:25:45 <michi_cc> orudge: You might want to look at os/2 clipboard stuff, it's probably broken. I looked at it while doing the OSX clipboard support and to me it seems to use some ansi encoding and not utf-8. 14:26:14 *** vittorio [~vittorio@93-38-35-79.ip68.fastwebnet.it] has joined #openttd 14:26:30 <vittorio> hi 14:26:38 <vittorio> ... wrong nick again 14:26:41 *** vittorio is now known as koda 14:29:59 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7458F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:30:50 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7458F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:33:43 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:34:19 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7458F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:37:26 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.136.241] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 14:40:41 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has joined #openttd 14:40:53 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7458F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 14:42:17 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7458F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 14:47:15 *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 15:00:32 *** Netsplit joule.oftc.net <-> solenoid.oftc.net quits: Eddi|zuHause, zar, JVassie^, |Jeroen|, dihedral, planetmaker, Osai, HerzogDeXtEr, bartaway, edeca, (+20 more, use /NETSPLIT to show all of them) 15:00:48 *** Netsplit over, joins: welshdragon, Coco-Banana-Man, JVassie^, planetmaker, XeryusTC, SmatZ, Andel, Eddi|zuHause, HerzogDeXtEr, jpm_ (+20 more) 15:06:56 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:10:17 *** Varivar [~Varivar@ip5653c04a.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #openttd 15:11:54 *** Chrill [~chrischri@80.216.60.117] has joined #openttd 15:13:56 <PeterT> orudge: is OS/2 free? 15:14:12 <__ln> of course not. 15:14:28 <PeterT> screw it then 15:19:27 <Belugas> o_O 15:20:12 <Belugas> so... screw Windows, screw MacOS, screw... what else??? Gaz, food, books, clothes... 15:20:30 <blathijs> TrueBrain_: Would it be a good idea to add a Ubuntu build in addition to the Debian Lenny build? Ubuntu Karmic no longer has libicu38, so the Debian Lenny deb doesn't work on Ubuntu right now. 15:20:42 <PeterT> No, I'm just not going to pay extra for something I don't need 15:21:04 <PeterT> I thought it was free, so I would download and put it on a VM 15:21:31 <__ln> is there evidence that anything really works on Karmic? 15:21:56 *** worldemar [~woldemar@213.178.46.47] has joined #openttd 15:24:05 <Ammler> blathijs: isn't that the reason, libicu is statically linked? 15:24:53 <Rubidium> blathijs: for Karmic they should use the generic binaries, not the ones for Lenny 15:26:22 <Rubidium> blathijs: but... *if* we're going to make packages for Ubuntu we ought to depend on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio 15:27:05 <blathijs> Rubidium: Generic binaries aren't .debs, so that's only a partial solution 15:27:27 <dihedral> __ln, i use 9.10 15:28:52 <Rubidium> blathijs: and .debs for *Lenny* aren't meant to be used for *Karmic* 15:29:30 <blathijs> Rubidium: I know, that's why I suggest adding debs for Karmic :-) 15:30:21 <blathijs> Rubidium: Depending on libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio is tricky, since that enforces the use of pulse, while that's not strictly needed. 15:30:43 <blathijs> But I agree that it greatly improves the out-of-the-box experience, though 15:30:51 <Rubidium> blathijs: otherwise you'll get inundated with bug reports about OpenTTD using 100% CPU 15:31:27 <blathijs> Rubidium: We didn't find the cause for that yet? 15:32:32 <Rubidium> blathijs: well some bug in sdl -> alsa -> pulseaudio 15:36:47 <Rubidium> e.g. it's a known bug with solution for tuxpaint too 15:37:11 <blathijs> tuxpaint? Some other SDL app? 15:37:16 <Rubidium> yes 15:37:27 <Rubidium> https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/tuxpaint/+bug/269082 15:37:29 <blathijs> And the fix doesn't apply to us? 15:37:48 <Rubidium> blathijs: yes, the fix applies to us too 15:38:10 <Rubidium> and the fix is ... 15:38:21 <Rubidium> ... installing libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio 15:38:32 <Rubidium> i.e. *exactly* the same fix as the fix for us 15:40:29 *** Varivar [~Varivar@ip5653c04a.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg] 15:41:36 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7458F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 15:43:22 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7458F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 15:48:14 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.136.241] has joined #openttd 15:55:32 <Neon> Will evening the area e.g. around a farm increase it's produce? 15:56:51 <orudge> it'll have no effect 15:57:09 <blathijs> Rubidium: That's not a fix, that's a workaround. 15:58:00 <Neon> Ok D: 16:01:13 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc23fc.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 16:01:42 <andythenorth> Neon: intriguing idea 16:01:47 <andythenorth> it *could* be coded that way 16:01:53 <andythenorth> but it's probably a bit strange :) 16:14:49 *** Phoenix_the_II [ralph@j104051.upc-j.chello.nl] has joined #openttd 16:15:17 *** PhoenixII [ralph@j104051.upc-j.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 16:40:16 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@39.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 16:40:35 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: spontaneous idea: for every tile loop that passes a farm field, if field is at end of cycle, add to a counter of the appropriate farm [farm info is already stored in the map]. farm produces if counter reaches a certain value 16:41:48 <PeterT> Why do giant screenshots always crash... 16:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: because you run out of memory? 16:42:15 <PeterT> is that why, really? 16:42:19 <PeterT> what is the memory needed? 16:42:41 <Eddi|zuHause> raw image? 16:43:07 <Eddi|zuHause> something like 32x16 pixels per tile 16:43:33 <PeterT> giant screenshot for map 512x1024 16:44:42 <Eddi|zuHause> something around 256MB, i think 16:44:44 <PeterT> strangely enough, it takes the screenshot, it just crashes 16:45:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "crash" is not an error message 16:45:09 <PeterT> 60,000kb 16:45:44 <Eddi|zuHause> PeterT: PNGs are compressed, the uncompressed size is relevant 16:46:05 <PeterT> How you do uncompress them? And why would you uncompress them? 16:46:07 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@171.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 16:46:27 <zar> they're uncompressed in memory 16:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> if you have to ask that, you have no idea how compressing works 16:47:08 *** phalax [~phalax@84.19.128.89] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 16:47:33 *** phalax [~phalax@84.19.128.89] has joined #openttd 16:47:50 *** MyCatSchemes [~mycatverb@5ac7ac11.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 16:52:48 <koda> soooo 16:52:52 <koda> about the macosx port 16:52:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: spontaneous idea...extend it to arbitrary tiles (use an action 2 or similar to choose sprites) 16:53:01 <koda> i still don't understand what are you looking for 16:53:10 <andythenorth> hi koda :) 16:53:21 <koda> hi andythenorth 16:53:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't follow 16:53:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: nvm...another time ;) 16:54:13 <andythenorth> koda: basically someone who both cares enough and has the skills to keep the OS X port alive 16:54:25 <andythenorth> *fully supported* with no weird bugs 16:54:28 <Eddi|zuHause> you by "arbitrary tiles" you mean "more industry-plantable tiles than just farm fields"? 16:54:34 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: yes 16:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> -you 16:55:33 <andythenorth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=42440&hilit=industry+tiles 16:55:38 <andythenorth> it's an old drum I'm banging :D 16:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's fairly easy, with one catch: currently farm fields store the industry id, so that could be used to reference arbitrary industries, but this reference must stay valid when the industry closes 16:56:28 <koda> andythenorth: i believe that a crossplatform game should use crossplatform development tools, so since noone wants to deal with the objc part we could just use sdl for video rendering, io and other stuff 16:56:56 <andythenorth> koda: and there I'm rapidly out of my depth....all I know is: 16:57:07 <andythenorth> (1) giving Rubidium a mac doesn't solve the problem :o 16:57:25 <andythenorth> (2) I would be sad to see the OS X port disappear, but the crossover solution might work 16:57:48 <andythenorth> (3) I can't help with code. In fact, I haven't even done the mac testing I said I would :( 16:58:00 <andythenorth> (I don't really play the game very often) 16:58:30 <Belugas> koda, not that i want to be rude, but that's bullshit. there is no such thing. you NEED to be able to test and debug in the native platform, since all APIs are different in their implementations, and DO reaquire some adjustments, which require vry good knowledge of the underneath stuff 16:59:11 <koda> not true, if you use sdl everything platform specific is wrapped and you just have to deal with 1 api, that is the sdl one 16:59:32 <Eddi|zuHause> koda: you forget that sdl is not ported to 10.6 either 16:59:34 <_ln> koda: SDL is too slow (and possibly otherwise crappy too) 16:59:42 <andythenorth> hmm....I have some house tidying to do....Eddi|zuHause can we discuss industry tiles later? :) 16:59:49 <koda> and that's bullcrap 16:59:54 <koda> i have sdl on 10.6 here 17:00:06 <koda> and it's not slow, other games arrive at 250 fps 17:00:16 *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:00:25 <koda> i can provide screenshots, do you have some proof supporting that sdl is not for 10.6 and it's slow? 17:01:01 <koda> it's true that using platform specific code you get more performance, but you can apply it only for very specific sections and only if you have some native enviroment to build on 17:01:16 <koda> as this is not the case, dropping to a crosscompiler is difficult and dangerous 17:01:38 <_ln> koda: afaik, the Mac port initially used SDL, but it was dropped when better, native implementations were written. 17:01:40 <koda> so the code should use only portable api such as sdl or other libraris 17:02:08 <Eddi|zuHause> koda: i make a vague proposal: you have no real clue what you're talking about. 17:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> *proposition 17:02:45 <zar> using a portable api is surely wiser if there's nobody to keep the native implementations up-to-date :) 17:03:00 *** fonsinchen [~alve@brln-4dbc23fc.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:03:04 <koda> Eddi|zuHause: yeah, that goes along "you're build enviroment is broken" of yesterday that led my to a successfull build... 17:03:12 <_ln> assuming there is someone to keep the portable api's implementation up-to-date. 17:03:20 <Eddi|zuHause> zar: but there's nobody who can keep the portable implementations up to date either 17:03:34 <koda> _ln: it appears that the native implementation has been deprecated quickly 17:03:46 <zar> Eddi|zuHause: with for example SDL, that's someone else's problem 17:04:00 <glx> yes Apple deprecates stuff with each new version 17:04:16 <_ln> zar: no, it's "our" problem if it doesn't work well enough for "us". 17:04:30 <koda> one more reason to drop the burden to someone else, like sdl guys 17:04:44 <_ln> glx: and Microsoft never deprecates any stuff, which is not the greatest option either. 17:04:45 <glx> we'll still get the complaints 17:04:50 <zar> _ln: well, if the api isn't horribly broken, it's still less of a burden. 17:05:09 <glx> _ln: it does deprecate stuff (like dmusic) 17:05:51 <planetmaker> [18:03] <koda> _ln: it appears that the native implementation has been deprecated quickly <-- if you call two years quickly... 17:06:49 <planetmaker> it is quickly, though, by X11 standards. 17:07:14 *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 17:07:58 <Belugas> sometimes... people are just... pffffffff 17:08:09 <planetmaker> besides there's not much point in a "you do it wrong" discussion. By whatever means you chose, you'll need a native port maintainer in any case. 17:08:18 * Belugas goes back to listening mode... 17:08:28 <glx> and remember openttd still runs on 10.3.9 :) 17:08:34 <zar> i'd like to maintain the port, but i lack the skills. :) 17:08:38 <zar> (and time) 17:08:51 <zar> i guess that's the case for many people. 17:08:54 <planetmaker> ^ 17:09:27 <koda> :) sorry let me rephrase that, what i meant that if one guy makes a native port and then drops it at any moment, maybe it should have been better to keep the code not-platform specific 17:09:30 <planetmaker> sillls can be aquired, though 17:09:47 <planetmaker> koda: also that statement is pointless. 17:09:56 <koda> why 17:10:12 <planetmaker> _you_ _should_ _have_ _done_ 17:10:15 <glx> we use platform specific for all platforms 17:10:20 <planetmaker> in this combination it's a very bad one 17:10:21 <glx> because it's better 17:10:27 <_ln> koda: the safest way would have been not to write the game in the first place. 17:10:53 <glx> anyway the main problem with OSX port was the porter ;) 17:11:02 <zar> shouldn't you be thinking about how to improve the situation. 17:11:11 <zar> instead of fighting like little kids 17:11:27 <_ln> we need to order a clone of Bjarni from some rogue scientist. 17:11:30 <glx> SDL used to crash on exit 17:11:39 <glx> (on OSX) 17:11:41 <koda> planetmaker: ok my choice of words is poor, but try to get my message 17:11:51 <koda> the osx port should not be abandoned 17:11:56 <planetmaker> zar: absolutely. In my experience it's always ok and welcome, if you supply patches. 17:12:16 <koda> and since noone wants to step up, just try to keep the code compilable with crossplatform apis 17:12:27 <planetmaker> koda: well. It's not abandoned. There's no one of the current devs who can run it natively. 17:12:30 <planetmaker> And that's a problem 17:12:41 <_ln> zar: fighting and finding the persons to blame has been the channel policy since the beginning. 17:12:43 <zar> we have another project running on SDL, and it somewhat works with OS X 10.6 too, so at least it's not completely broken. 17:12:45 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7458F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 17:12:58 <planetmaker> even if you work cross-platform. You need to test whether it works. It's not everything smoothly portable. 17:13:31 <glx> I can only test 10.3.9 in pearpc and 10.4.8 in vmware 17:13:48 <koda> well so you'd need someone who can build it and check it works fine? 17:13:55 <zar> testers are easier to get than developers :) 17:14:10 <planetmaker> how do you want to port system font detection? chinese character input? You need some system calls for that 17:14:23 <Alberth> somebody that fixes the problems when they arise is needed 17:14:51 <Belugas> koda, seeing how hard Rubidium tried to keep it alive, i would say that he did his best to keep it alive. If HE failed to solve the problems, then he REALLY needs someone WHO KOWS to step in. He tried. TI was not just out of bad will. 17:14:54 * worldemar wants japanese input 17:15:19 <glx> worldemar: that's CJK ;) 17:15:28 <glx> and we need someone to implement it 17:15:34 <koda> Belugas: but i can't understand WHAT the problems are, can you point me to them 17:15:46 <planetmaker> koda: look at flyspray 17:16:02 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B7653B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 17:16:15 <glx> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2782 17:16:24 <planetmaker> and it needs *someone* to actually take care of it. To fix OS-specific bugs somewhat timely 17:17:04 <planetmaker> and then there's the problem of the compile farm... 17:17:23 <glx> compile farm works :) 17:17:25 <planetmaker> ... a native X-Serve is hard to come by, if you don't want to spend $$$ 17:17:36 <Alberth> koda: http://bugs.openttd.org/index.php?string=[OSX]&project=1 17:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> compile farm is not the problem, testing environment is 17:17:56 <planetmaker> glx: yes. And much appreciated :-) 17:18:17 <glx> it even generates universal builds 17:18:38 <koda> we could add a mac mini server to the farm :D 17:18:44 <koda> less costly than xserves 17:18:48 <glx> no we can't 17:19:41 <planetmaker> even a testing environment doesn't guarantee that things can be reproduced... http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3194 <-- e.g. I don't see it. 17:19:43 <glx> and as said compilation is not the problem 17:19:49 <Alberth> must be rack-mountable 17:20:54 <Belugas> adding a server for each supported platform is a good idea. why didn't we though of that before ;) 17:21:16 <Belugas> after all, we do cross plactform, so we must have different plactforms available, right? 17:21:17 <Belugas> hehehe 17:21:18 <planetmaker> hehe 17:21:36 <glx> we use native for all builds except OSX 17:21:57 <glx> because it's quite impossible to set up OSX in a virtual machine 17:22:31 <zar> there seems to be an IME editor in planning for SDL 17:24:57 <planetmaker> Hm... http://alex.csgraf.de/self/?qemu/ 17:26:33 <glx> VirtualBox (I won't do it) <-- that's our problem :) 17:27:22 <planetmaker> and http://d4wiki.goddamm.it/index.php?title=Howto:_Mac_OSX_on_KVM 17:27:39 <planetmaker> yeah... if it has to be virtual box... :-) 17:29:07 <glx> oh and the server is AMD IIRC :) 17:35:21 <planetmaker> well... possible in self-made-mode, I guess: http://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2076 17:35:27 <planetmaker> Not sure how much hassle it is, though 17:37:29 *** lobstah [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has joined #openttd 17:41:23 *** lobstar [~michielbi@86.89.201.189] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 17:50:21 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has joined #openttd 18:00:43 <PeterT> !dl 18:00:43 *** PeterT was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.] 18:01:09 *** PeterT [~Peter@c-76-19-211-40.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 18:01:28 *** JameiLei [~jcyrhodgs@82-46-141-38.cable.ubr03.harb.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:02:14 <planetmaker> :-D 18:02:29 *** Zuu [Zuu@c-8cf1e655.510-8-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 18:02:45 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 18:03:41 <koda> well i'm off then, bye 18:03:43 *** koda [~vittorio@93-38-35-79.ip68.fastwebnet.it] has left #openttd [] 18:04:01 <andythenorth> @seen Pikka 18:04:01 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Pikka was last seen in #openttd 3 weeks, 1 day, 6 hours, 44 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <Pikka> a certain other project :P 18:07:28 *** JameiLei [~jcyrhodgs@82-46-141-38.cable.ubr03.harb.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #openttd [] 18:07:42 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@94-224-31-113.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:07:48 <planetmaker> I guess he's more around in the forums, andythenorth 18:12:25 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has joined #openttd 18:15:14 *** asilv [~asilvio@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe9afa00-232.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 18:20:16 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.136.241] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:21:42 *** DarkED [~J@cpe-075-176-105-070.carolina.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 18:25:51 <_ln> why does http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1140 block the "Port hopelessly outdated" bug? 18:26:35 <Alberth> all OSX bugs do 18:27:07 <Alberth> ie the 'hopelessly outdated' issue is a collection of OSX things that need fixing 18:27:47 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.114.133.219.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has joined #openttd 18:28:21 <ashb> the OSX port has a lot of objc code - it doesn't use SDL for events does it? 18:28:30 <ashb> or is most of hte objc to do with rendering? 18:28:40 <_ln> but since 1140 is about an OSX-only feature, ... one can't claim it works worse on OSX than others. 18:28:48 <planetmaker> ashb: no, it usess the native cocoa / carbon features 18:28:54 <_ln> ashb: the OS X port doesn't use SDL at all, afaik. 18:28:58 <planetmaker> and apple has its API in objc 18:29:13 <ashb> why doesn't it use SDL? 18:29:26 <ashb> (i.e. is there a good reason or just 'it doesnt') 18:29:39 <planetmaker> there probably was one back then 18:29:55 <_ln> [18:59] <_ln> koda: SDL is too slow (and possibly otherwise crappy too) 18:29:55 <planetmaker> and "it doesn't" certainly applies. No one made it an option. 18:29:56 <Rubidium> ashb: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/2 18:30:01 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@155.157.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 18:30:19 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@155.157.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd 18:30:36 <ashb> Rubidium: so dont statically link? ;) 18:30:40 <Rubidium> ashb: even then SDL misses functions to determine what font to use for a given language 18:30:49 <ashb> ah k 18:31:07 <glx> ashb: and expect users will have SDL lib installed ? 18:31:15 <ashb> glx: you can bundle it in the .app 18:31:44 <planetmaker> he... SDL is certainly not a default install on mac 18:31:49 <ashb> @executable_path/../lib/libsdl.dylib 18:31:56 <_ln> planetmaker: as hinted by Bjarni's comment in /2, SDL was used on OS X earlier. 18:31:56 <ashb> etc 18:32:13 <planetmaker> _ln: yes. I figured ;-) 18:32:29 <Rubidium> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/18 18:32:48 <ashb> 'so dynamic linking is out of the question (they don't like opening libs in non-standard locations)' 18:32:54 <ashb> that seems wrong 18:33:25 <glx> we dropped 10.2 support a long time ago 18:33:27 <Rubidium> ashb: there are more fishy things... 18:34:03 <planetmaker> he... Bjarni really didn't like SDL it seems ;-) 18:34:04 <Rubidium> anyhow, it would require someone to properly build *and* test a universal library, incorporate that into the compile farm 18:34:16 <Rubidium> which is a bitch 18:34:29 <ashb> Rubidium: i'm just idly wondering if its worth investing time in SDL 18:35:06 <ashb> or just drop support for PPC, since 'supporting' intel macs is better than supporting no macs 18:35:18 <_ln> ashb: wrong 18:35:40 <Rubidium> ashb: well, I'd propose dropping Intel support, because that has been giving all the trouble the last 3 years 18:35:41 <andythenorth> _ln: why? 18:35:55 <planetmaker> well, why? ^ 18:36:11 <planetmaker> intel macs are the future of macos 18:36:14 <ashb> PPC hasn't been sold for about 5 years now 18:36:31 <planetmaker> and with the current retail price of snow leopard it will probably spread quite quickly 18:36:40 *** Singaporekid [~notme@cm63.epsilon84.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:36:41 <andythenorth> anyone still using OS 9 or 8 is in a world of crashy pain. Kind of nice to look at, but massively unstable 18:36:42 <_ln> andythenorth: because Intel Mac owners have various ways to run Windows(R) on their Mac, and play OTTD on Windows. On PPC not so much. 18:37:11 <Rubidium> like OS X's APIs 18:37:12 <planetmaker> _ln: ppc users can run a flavour of *nix 18:37:17 <glx> and we still support 10.3.9 ppc :) 18:37:25 <andythenorth> if PPC support is being dropped anyway, how do PPC owners lose out if the intel build continues? 18:37:33 <andythenorth> they lose the same amount either way 18:37:48 <_ln> PPC support is not being dropped. 18:37:51 <planetmaker> glx: honestly, but if 10.3.x and 10.4 are in the way of a port maintained or not - I'd strongly vote for dropping that support. 18:38:15 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but it's primarily 10.5 and 10.6 on Intel that's in the way... 18:38:32 <glx> ppc is not the problem indeed :) 18:38:53 <glx> all trouble started with 10.5 18:39:42 <andythenorth> it's kind of strange that the newgrf tools got a mac build, but the game drops the mac support. I know why, just seems weird. 18:40:08 <andythenorth> I only bought Crossover to use grfcodec, now I will need it for the game and have a mac native grfcodec at the same time 18:40:13 <planetmaker> :-) well... only FS3194 could be considered specific to 10.6. All other OSX bugs are native to all. 18:40:38 <planetmaker> I'd rather say the trouble started with Bjarni going bye bye... 18:41:03 <ashb> and an SDL port would be much easier to maintain, no? 18:41:24 <planetmaker> ashb: did you look at the list of open bugs? 18:41:33 <ashb> no. i was just idly wondering 18:41:35 <planetmaker> http://bugs.openttd.org/?string=OSX 18:41:49 <planetmaker> they don't really look like SDL would solve any of them 18:41:56 <ashb> first one it does 18:42:01 <ashb> no? 18:42:12 <planetmaker> dunno. 18:43:37 <planetmaker> I just remember though, the pain to get SDL installed on my machine in the first place :-) 18:43:50 <ashb> download a dmg isn't it? 18:43:51 <planetmaker> I had to wait for an SDL update 18:43:55 <planetmaker> no, wasn't it. 18:44:04 <planetmaker> sudo port sdllib install 18:44:11 <ashb> also bundle it in the .app and no one but devs have to install it 18:44:13 <planetmaker> the dmg failed horribly 18:44:16 <ashb> eugh. macports is full of fail 18:44:18 <Rubidium> ashb: that would still require a maintainer to see whether the bug is in OpenTTD or in SDL 18:44:54 <ashb> Rubidium: sure, but it also means much less osx specific code 18:45:45 <peter1138> let's drop all non-sdl targets :D 18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r18657 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) 18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: afrikaans - 174 changes by burgerd 18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 10 changes by arnau 18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by 18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 7 changes by Zhygometh 18:45:51 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 32 changes by Landrash 18:46:00 <PeterT> Aw, nothing interesting 18:46:35 <andythenorth> PeterT: depends if you speak Afrikaans, no? 18:46:36 <planetmaker> let's see whether I get it compiled with SDL only... 18:46:51 <planetmaker> --with-sdl --disable-cocoa-quartz --disable-cocoa-quickdraw 18:47:03 <PeterT> Wat praat jy oor? 18:47:52 <ashb> planetmaker: fwif the way i'd suggest doing it 'properly' is with using sdl as a framework 18:48:19 <planetmaker> yes? 18:48:27 <ashb> as in a .framework 18:48:35 <ashb> as those are easier to embed in an app 18:48:50 <Terkhen> the croatian translator has an interesting nick 18:48:50 <planetmaker> yes indeed they are 18:49:28 <planetmaker> psst, don't speaketh that name! 18:49:53 *** Madis [~stabuinte@82.131.16.156.cable.starman.ee] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.5.6/20091201220228]] 18:49:57 <planetmaker> ashb: but then it will require to have SDL installed as a framework... wich might pose problems in itself. 18:50:11 <ashb> no you can put that inside hte .app which gets distributed 18:50:18 <ashb> & gah family arrived 18:50:27 *** Grelouk_ [~Grelouk@79.88.159.222] has joined #openttd 18:50:37 <glx> and we're back to need universal build of that lib 18:50:49 <planetmaker> universal libs... how 'nice' 18:51:49 <_ln> glx: universally-built SDL frameworks are available at libsdl.org... (dunno what versions exactly do they support) 18:51:51 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF995E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:52:28 <_ln> anyway, let's just wait a while while planetmaker builds the OSX version against SDL, and let's hear his report then. 18:53:18 <planetmaker> well... there's no easy way to completely disable cocoa... 18:56:42 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@155.157.206-77.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:57:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18658 /trunk/src/lang/ (42 files): -Fix [FS#3443]: wrong strings drawn for cargo subtype in vehicle details 18:58:06 <Rubidium> ashb: don't forget midi playback 18:59:18 *** |Terkhen| [~Terkhen@240.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #openttd 18:59:34 *** Terkhen is now known as Guest1012 18:59:34 *** |Terkhen| is now known as Terkhen 18:59:57 *** ajmiles [~aj@78-86-188-187.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 19:00:33 <planetmaker> right. It compiles, it works. But nice is something else: 19:00:36 <planetmaker> dbg: [driver] Setting video mode failed, falling back to 640x480 windowed mode. 19:00:38 <planetmaker> 2009-12-29 19:59:30.919 openttd[31007:8f0b] *** __NSAutoreleaseNoPool(): Object 0x114bd30e0 of class NSWindowGraphicsContext autoreleased with no pool in place - just leaking 19:00:47 <planetmaker> and zillions of those. And the colours are fucked up 19:01:23 <Rubidium> planetmaker: so it works 'just fine' 19:01:29 <planetmaker> :-P 19:01:46 <planetmaker> I feel somehow quoted... 19:02:21 <Rubidium> hmm... differently, it solves FS#3194 because it's not flickering with the wrong colour, but just the wrong colour 19:02:55 <planetmaker> dunno. I'll try a screenshot. Looks... interesting. Blue is over-emphasized. 19:03:07 <planetmaker> everything in a snowy-blue-ish look 19:03:18 <Alberth> 'deep blue' 19:03:39 <Rubidium> oh, so the AI must be very good 19:03:41 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@133.160.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #openttd 19:03:50 <planetmaker> hm? 19:04:14 <Alberth> http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue 19:04:27 *** Guest1012 [~Terkhen@171.68.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:04:34 <Alberth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_Blue_%28chess_computer%29 19:04:48 <planetmaker> hehe 19:06:15 <planetmaker> should I attach the screenshot to FS#3194 or make a separate issue? 19:06:39 <Rubidium> well.. it's an SDL issue? 19:06:49 <Rubidium> make it a separate one 19:07:00 <Rubidium> [OSX+SDL] ... 19:07:13 <Rubidium> then I can easily link that when they 'again' propose to go to SDL 19:07:23 <planetmaker> ok 19:07:43 <planetmaker> colour is not the only one. The window resize box also leaves smears / glitches 19:08:18 <Rubidium> so SDL isn't that unified across platforms as it's supposed to be... OR ... it's just plain old buggy on OSX 19:09:25 <planetmaker> hm... it looks similar to the resizing issue I once reported on my linux box. Not the same, but the smear is also limited to a certain x-extend of the window 19:09:48 *** Grelouk_ [~Grelouk@79.88.159.222] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:09:51 <planetmaker> and only appears above a certain y-size. 19:10:40 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 19:10:45 <andythenorth> planetmaker: umm....your changes to the parameters broke FIRS :o 19:11:00 <andythenorth> now incompatible with NARS 2 19:12:08 <andythenorth> at least I think it's your changes :D 19:12:12 <andythenorth> could be me 19:12:16 <planetmaker> I think it was before. 19:12:47 <andythenorth> I'll go read the code 19:12:48 <planetmaker> at least for certain parameters of NARS 19:13:03 <andythenorth> I played my last game with NARS 2, no parameters 19:13:07 <andythenorth> I think 19:13:08 <planetmaker> :S 19:16:03 <planetmaker> Nice. I got an assertion upon closing OpenTTD 19:29:23 *** Dred_furst__ [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has joined #openttd 19:32:22 *** Dred_furst [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 19:34:00 <_ln> just remember that any of those problems encountered by planetmaker is not "our" problem, but the SDL guys'. 19:34:54 <_ln> after the principle suggested earlier 19:35:00 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.115.16] has joined #openttd 19:36:42 <Elessar> Hello. 19:37:19 <Elessar> I saw an option to allow to corrupt municipalities. 19:37:37 <Elessar> How does that actually work, is it by paying promotion campaigns? 19:38:05 <planetmaker> http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3447 <-- for all OSX+SDL freaks out there :-) 19:38:13 <Elessar> In fact I have a city that is denying me to build a station. 19:38:23 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Quit: a1270] 19:38:52 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has joined #openttd 19:40:36 <_ln> planetmaker: you could paste that link privately to mr. koda. 19:41:45 <planetmaker> well, he left. But he'll come back and anyone can now point him there. 19:41:48 <Rubidium> planetmaker: hmm, it's even quite a bit worse than I thought 19:41:56 <planetmaker> He could as well have tested it... 19:42:20 <Rubidium> the crash.log shows quite well that it's crashing in SDL 19:42:24 *** a1270 [~Cheese@72-24-233-98.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #openttd 19:42:46 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yeah... the crash bugs me. Happens only from ingame. And the debug says it's leaking memory like hell, if I understand that correctly 19:44:36 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.115.16] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 19:44:52 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 19:45:00 <planetmaker> he... I didn't reset my graphics set from the last testing ;-) 19:45:02 <Wolf01> hello! 19:45:11 <planetmaker> holla! 19:46:17 <peter1138> success then 19:48:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: orudge * r18659 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix: Some minor language corrections in installer 19:48:26 <Wolf01> gah.. 27 pages of topic subscriptions in the forum... 19:49:23 <welshdragon> :o 19:49:33 <welshdragon> orudge just made a commit! 19:49:40 <orudge> It has been known to happen 19:49:40 <planetmaker> 2nd one in 24 hours 19:50:04 <welshdragon> ...really? 19:50:04 <Wolf01> @site admin: is possible to fix that nasty bug with the hg rss? it always append :8084 to the address and the link does not work 19:50:18 <orudge> welshdragon: once every few months, indeed 19:50:22 <planetmaker> check the logs, welshdragon :-) 19:50:30 <peter1138> http://fuzzle.org/~petern/ottd/serversort.diff < evil? 19:51:00 <Rubidium> Wolf01: file a bug report at https://secure.openttd.org/bugs/newtask/proj4 (that is for the 'website' project, not the main OpenTTD thing) 19:51:36 <planetmaker> hehe @ peter1138 19:51:48 <planetmaker> But it wouldn't change much, I think 19:52:07 <planetmaker> people would then call their server ?aaaaaanother cool server" or so 19:54:41 <peter1138> possibly true 19:57:13 *** luk3Z [~chatzilla@adpv107.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 19:57:19 <Belugas> would still be better than the stupidity currentyl available... 19:57:29 <luk3Z> hello all 19:57:43 <Belugas> hello luk3Z 19:57:44 <planetmaker> well, it's probably worth the surprise :-) 19:57:57 <planetmaker> salut luk3Z 19:58:49 <planetmaker> peter1138: better (but much more work): make it an option. Disabled by default. Then the sensible people can enjoy it :-) 20:00:16 <Belugas> ENABLED by default... 20:00:25 <Belugas> NO OPTIONS!!!! 20:01:26 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.115.16] has joined #openttd 20:03:07 <Alberth> nah, you want 1/2 of the players to use the option and 1/2 of the players not to use the option. Perhaps use a different sorting based on the name of the player? :p 20:04:31 <planetmaker> hehe. No, rather a cfg only option. Then most won't notice. 20:04:39 <peter1138> planetmaker, good idea ;) 20:04:59 *** josh [~josh@94-194-62-217.zone8.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 20:05:03 <Rubidium> why not a cfg only option to just not show those servers at all? 20:05:34 <planetmaker> :-) 20:05:38 *** josh is now known as Guest1017 20:05:51 <planetmaker> well... it wouldn't show #openttdcoop ;-) 20:06:01 <planetmaker> I don't mind the sorting, but that's our name 20:06:32 <planetmaker> going by client count by default is the best, though IMO 20:06:32 <Guest1017> hello all :) 20:06:37 *** Guest1017 is now known as joshy 20:06:57 *** joshy is now known as darkmonkey 20:07:02 <darkmonkey> argh 20:07:14 <Alberth> not sure whether 'all' is here, but hello 20:07:16 <luk3Z> hello Guest1017 20:07:52 <darkmonkey> ^_^ 20:08:02 *** luk3Z [~chatzilla@adpv107.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [K-Meleon 1.5.3/20090825]] 20:08:09 <darkmonkey> i found openttd recently (1.0 beta) and must say it's very very awesome 20:08:31 <_ln> thanks to Chris Sawyer 20:09:01 <darkmonkey> yup - i always loved rct as well 20:09:13 *** luk3Z [~chatzilla@adpv107.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #openttd 20:09:44 <luk3Z> wrong command & quit accidently ;) 20:10:33 <darkmonkey> i haven't had chance to trawl through the bug tracker but - my trains occasionally stop at stations and refuse to move after that - despite having no 'wait for full load' or signals stopping them 20:10:43 <darkmonkey> is that a bug or just..gameplay? 20:11:09 <planetmaker> do they still load? 20:11:23 <planetmaker> e.g. is cargo slowly tickling into the station? 20:11:58 <darkmonkey> no, no cargo 20:12:08 <darkmonkey> on a station which had oil and then the oil wells disappeared 20:12:25 <darkmonkey> disappeared when the train was en-route 20:12:55 <darkmonkey> i could understand if it was waiting for a load but i specifically told it to go somewhere else and ignore the signals 20:14:08 <Alberth> you have a save game? 20:14:28 <Alberth> you may want to post it at the general openttd forum 20:15:22 <Alberth> you were not playing with time tables by accident? 20:20:18 *** vittorio [~vittorio@93-38-35-79.ip68.fastwebnet.it] has joined #openttd 20:20:56 *** vittorio_ [~vittorio@93-38-35-79.ip68.fastwebnet.it] has joined #openttd 20:20:56 *** vittorio [~vittorio@93-38-35-79.ip68.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:20:56 *** vittorio_ is now known as vittorio 20:21:01 <darkmonkey> Alberth no save game and no timetables - was the first time i played openttd and was just getting to grips with it 20:21:05 <darkmonkey> if i can replicate it i will save and post 20:21:50 <luk3Z> does OpenSFX working with OTTD 0.7.5 ? 20:22:03 <Alberth> darkmonkey: that's usually the simplest approach. Explaining in text is difficult, with a save game you'll get quick response 20:22:07 <Alberth> luk3Z: nope 20:22:31 <luk3Z> i saw 0.8.0 in readme but I want to know anyway :P 20:22:36 <darkmonkey> Alberth yea, thanks. i know as much and should have saved really :> 20:22:55 <Alberth> darkmonkey: there are also autosaves 20:23:55 <darkmonkey> i had never saved the game (fresh install) so where would it have put them? 20:23:56 <Alberth> in save/autosave at my system. Maybe you have an old version 20:24:07 <darkmonkey> i have latest 1.0.0 beta 20:24:42 <Alberth> depends on your config. simplest way is to start a game, and save :) 20:25:19 <darkmonkey> ok will look into it, cheers 20:25:48 <Alberth> alternatively, look for .sav files 20:26:25 *** Chrill [~chrischri@80.216.60.117] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 20:26:33 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.114.133.219.plusnet.thn-ag1.dyn.plus.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:26:46 <darkmonkey> also, other q: is there anywhere which gives best practise advice on building busy railways? i understand the signals (to an extent) but i will end up with lots of trains queuing for track space 20:27:02 <darkmonkey> wiki is very helpful in teaching basics but not ^ 20:28:47 <Belugas> forums too 20:28:56 <Belugas> lots of answers there 20:29:06 <Belugas> yeah... you have to search by yourself ;) 20:29:58 <darkmonkey> i did search, didn't find anything 20:30:05 <darkmonkey> well, didn't find anything too helpful 20:30:24 <darkmonkey> i will play around and hope for the best 20:30:26 <darkmonkey> all part of the fun 20:31:19 <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/search.php?keywords=track+design oh? 20:31:41 *** Chrill [~chrischri@80.216.60.117] has joined #openttd 20:31:57 <planetmaker> or look at the coop wiki 20:32:04 <planetmaker> </shameless plug> 20:32:09 <peter1138> only if you want silly layout s;p 20:32:18 <planetmaker> :-P 20:32:29 <darkmonkey> tas 20:32:31 <darkmonkey> ta* 20:32:36 *** Rhamphoryncus [~rhamph@d199-126-251-5.abhsia.telus.net] has joined #openttd 20:32:51 <darkmonkey> Alberth - slightly useful but nothing definitive 20:33:13 <darkmonkey> my query, abstractly, is - is there anywhere other than the wiki that has 'tutorials'? 20:33:17 <Alberth> I don't think there is anything definitive 20:33:25 <darkmonkey> ok, thanks :) 20:33:51 <Alberth> there are several different playing styles 20:34:16 <darkmonkey> oki, ta 20:34:22 <SpComb^> darkmonkey: http://uwe.s2000.ws/ttdx/network/index.php?lang=en 20:34:22 <darkmonkey> i will play some more and work it out =] 20:34:33 <darkmonkey> thanks SpComb^ 20:34:34 <SpComb^> I'm fairly sure there are some other random guides as well 20:35:34 *** gathers [~gathers@c80-216-141-218.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #openttd 20:35:42 <darkmonkey> thanks, that looks very helpful, SpComb^ ^_^ 20:36:44 <SpComb^> I've seen a better one, though 20:37:04 <Alberth> Imho discovering how to do things is all part of the fun. If you are stuck, post a question about something specific, and I am sure you'll get useful answers. 20:37:42 <darkmonkey> yea, i agree to an extent 20:37:49 <darkmonkey> just looking for a push in the right direction 20:37:55 <Wolf01> I must go now, I don't think I'll be here for the 1th day of 2010, so I wish you a happy new year :) 20:38:06 <Alberth> goodbye Wolf01 20:38:48 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host101-239-dynamic.8-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 20:39:05 <Alberth> you can download a few save games, and have a look how other do things. 20:39:29 <Alberth> http://www.tt-forums.net/viewforum.php?f=59 20:39:35 <darkmonkey> thanks :-) 20:39:48 <darkmonkey> the community around openttd seems to be very good 20:39:56 <darkmonkey> the wikis are the best i've seen for opensource projects 20:40:25 <Zuu> Nice, 200 line long squirrel function to rearange airplanes to a new set of pairs (given from tabu search). Now, let see how many errors it contains. :-) 20:40:47 <Alberth> for new users it is not so good imho. Problem is there are not many newbie users that write wiki 20:41:17 <darkmonkey> true - but for instance the timetabling tutorial is very clear 20:41:45 <Alberth> yes, the more advanced stuff is quite good 20:42:45 <darkmonkey> in rollercoaster tycoon 2 when building coasters or paths etc, you could set a starting piece and then click the direction arrows to make a new block (rather than dragging on openttd or piece by piece) 20:43:03 <darkmonkey> are there any plans to do something like this in openttd? 20:43:28 <Zuu> There has been suggestions and I think TTDPatch might have something like that. 20:43:56 <Zuu> But at the scale of OpenTTD I don't really see me wanting to click that many times. 20:44:02 *** Fast2 [~Fast2@p57AF995E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #openttd 20:44:10 <darkmonkey> ah cool. can ttdpatch be used with openttd then? from the forums i got the impression ttdpatch was for the original TTD not openTTD 20:44:15 <Zuu> Then it is just easier to drag out the rails. 20:44:17 <darkmonkey> oh, true, Zuu, true 20:44:32 <Zuu> TTDPatch can be used with TTD. 20:44:46 <darkmonkey> with openTTD too? 20:45:11 <Zuu> No, it uses the original data from TTD. 20:45:54 <Zuu> Either you use the TTDPatch excutable file or the OpenTTD excutable file. 20:46:02 <darkmonkey> ah ok, thanks 20:46:03 <Alberth> darkmonkey: ask Gremnon: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=45630&p=827205&hilit=nested+widgets+example#p827205 20:46:27 <Alberth> I don't think it is a good idea btw 20:47:01 <darkmonkey> ok - thanks. having thought about the scale of openttd i realise it's probably not either 20:49:02 <Alberth> rail tracks are much less complicated to lay down than a curvy rct track :p 20:49:15 <Eddi|zuHause> yay snow! 20:49:23 <darkmonkey> indeed 20:51:36 *** Yexo [~Yexo@38-88-ftth.onsneteindhoven.nl] has joined #openttd 20:52:04 <darkmonkey> bck in a bit, thanks for your help guys =] 20:52:07 *** darkmonkey is now known as dm`afk 20:52:37 <Yexo> hello 20:53:14 *** TrueBrain_ is now known as TrueBrain 20:54:05 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.115.16] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out] 20:54:35 *** sleejer [sleejer@d51536A82.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 20:56:47 <luk3Z> hello Yexo 20:56:53 <planetmaker> moin Yexo 21:22:13 <sleejer> can i ask a gameplay related question here? 21:22:26 <jonty-comp> it depends whether we know the answer or not 21:24:40 <Yexo> sleejer: ask away 21:27:51 <eQualizer> Any luck finding any OSX developer? 21:29:04 <Yexo> as far as I'm aware not 21:34:10 *** LordAro [~LordAro@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #openttd 21:35:05 <_ln> not having an OS X developer has been like the topic of the day here 21:39:16 <planetmaker> :-) 21:39:38 *** Grelouk [~Grelouk@133.160.88-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Quit: Quitte] 21:40:04 <Sacro> heh 21:40:06 <Sacro> i have osx 21:40:10 <Sacro> and can slightly code 21:42:13 *** Dred_furst__ [~Dred_furs@cpc3-pool3-0-0-cust999.sotn.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 21:44:46 <sleejer> sorry phone just rang when i was going to ask 21:44:49 <sleejer> I have a train with oil tankers and goods vans that loads oil and unloads goods in station A, and vice versa in station B 21:45:05 <sleejer> However, in station A (which doesn't accept goods), the train loads the goods again and i don't want that to happen 21:45:15 <sleejer> Which orders should i give to prevent this? 21:45:28 *** asilv [~asilvio@dsl-lprbrasgw1-fe9afa00-232.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 21:45:52 <Rubidium> you want to unload a cargo that isn't accepted and load another cargo at the same time? That's not going to work 21:46:11 <sleejer> k thank you 21:46:59 *** LordAro [~LordAro@88-110-181-83.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Quit: Bye for now!] 21:47:02 <planetmaker> you could kinda trick around that by making two adjacent stations. One where you transfer, the other where you pickup 21:47:18 <planetmaker> but whether that's nice or ugly is quite subjective 21:51:23 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 21:51:23 *** luk3Z [~chatzilla@adpv107.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:51:53 <vittorio> _ln actually the topics of the day has been how osx suck and what a burden we have supporting it :D 21:53:08 *** vittorio is now known as koda 21:54:07 <sparr> i'll take OSX over windows, for usage AND development, any day 21:55:15 <Rubidium> good luck with maintaining the OS X port then :) 21:55:45 <Rubidium> I'll rather support Windows with it's interesting differences than OS X 21:58:42 <koda> i wouldn't call them "interesting" but i guess it's a development choice 22:00:04 <Rubidium> koda: the difference between Korean, Chinese and 'the rest' w.r.t. handling font names/paths is interesting :) 22:00:58 <Rubidium> making OpenTTD not compile anymore *each* and *every* major release of Apple stops to be interesting quite fast 22:04:09 <Rubidium> and it's quite nice that with a small amount of effort you can support a 15 year old OS, whereas you simply cannot support Mac OS X 10.3.8, which is less than 5 years old 22:05:22 *** sleejer [sleejer@d51536A82.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 22:05:24 <koda> security concerns apart, that statement might be true for some windows user who is still under win98 but 99,9% of macos users are on 10.4 onwards 22:05:42 <Rubidium> and I've had more fun figuring out bugs in Windows than bugs in OS X 22:09:56 * Belugas goes home. He had enough stupidity for a day 22:09:59 <Belugas> bye all 22:10:15 <koda> we won't me you 22:10:16 <Rubidium> night Belugas 22:10:18 <koda> miss* 22:10:20 <Terkhen> good bye Belugas 22:12:00 <Rubidium> there are probably less people with Mac OS X Snow Leopard downloading OpenTTD than people with Win9x downloading OpenTTD 22:12:34 <Rubidium> and panther seems to be used by ~1.3% 22:13:02 <koda> ... well go on with that attitude towards mac users and you'll see an even lower percentage :) 22:13:10 <PeterT> Rubidium: Where are you getting these stats from? 22:15:35 * Belugas realized he forgot his headphones while out of the building. koda, the "stupidity" stuff was not sent toward you, if ever you felt like it... 22:15:43 * Belugas is gone for good 22:16:24 <_ln> koda: did you see planetmaker's bug report? 22:17:36 <koda> yes i took note of the fullscreen glitch and of the mouse issue 22:17:53 <_ln> koda: no, i meant this one: http://bugs.openttd.org/task/3447 22:18:04 *** ecke [~ecke@211.143.broadband13.iol.cz] has quit [Quit: ecke] 22:19:11 <koda> oh that's something interesting 22:20:17 <_ln> so there we go with cross-platform libraries and their painlessness 22:20:48 <koda> i didn't say they were painless, just easier to mantain among platforms 22:23:12 *** FelipeMcMont [~mcmont@187.59.118.137] has joined #openttd 22:24:02 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Administr@89.246.220.82] has joined #openttd 22:25:24 *** welshdragon [~markmac@client-82-26-76-175.bmly.adsl.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: welshdragon] 22:28:32 <Rubidium> koda: the problem I have with Mac users, at least the ones that voice their anger w.r.t. our decision to not officially support the port anymore, is that they assume that Mac OS X support is easy and way less work than platform X yet for OpenTTD it seems to be completely the opposite world 22:29:23 <Rubidium> and their solution usually is: oh, just give an existing developer a Mac and the problems solves itself magically 22:30:08 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Administr@89.246.222.119] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:30:09 <Rubidium> but it requires the developer getting the Mac to be interesting in going through the hassle of learning the Mac API and figuring out what can be used and in what way 22:30:34 <Rubidium> and that's what takes a ginormous amount of time 22:31:12 <_ln> but it's free software, it should magically fix itself 22:31:28 <Rubidium> time I myself rather invest in other things, but then 'my' attitude becomes hostile towards the Mac users because I do not fix the port their are interested in 22:32:38 <Rubidium> but in the same way you can 'map' that attitude to all Mac users because they can't be bothered to fix the bugs 22:33:16 <_ln> some of them can't, because it would result in a kick 22:33:24 <Rubidium> and don't come with the argument that Mac users can't code, because it's just something that can be learnt as long as you are willing to put the effort into it 22:35:46 <koda> your point is sensible 22:36:12 *** vittorio [~vittorio@93-38-35-79.ip68.fastwebnet.it] has joined #openttd 22:36:12 *** koda [~vittorio@93-38-35-79.ip68.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 22:36:26 <vittorio> but in order to get help, you should also give help 22:36:32 *** vittorio is now known as koda 22:36:56 <Rubidium> well, what can I do? 22:37:17 <koda> and since i showed up yesterday i've been hearing pointless accuses about how osx sucks and how my build system is broken 22:38:08 <Yexo> koda: best way to prove those accusations wrong is by providing a patch fixing a bug 22:38:30 <Rubidium> koda: any idea where my accusations of OS X sucking are based on? 22:38:58 *** HackaLittleBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has joined #openttd 22:39:03 <koda> Rubidium: that was not referred to you, you're the one who actually started making sense 22:39:12 <koda> Yexo: i can't decrypt a 20000 lines program without developers help 22:39:31 <Yexo> you're at the right place to ask for help here 22:40:07 <glx> MSDN is way better than OSX API documentation :) 22:40:39 *** FelipeMcMont [~mcmont@187.59.118.137] has quit [] 22:41:32 * SpComb^ buries glx underground 22:41:33 <koda> glx that statement is wrong on so many levels that you can't expect anyone to actually believe you're being serios 22:42:31 <Rubidium> koda: hmm, then I'm unbelievable too 22:43:16 <Rubidium> but okay, that's my personal opinion on finding a method to determine what font would be best for a given language 22:44:15 <koda> you can say that you don't like objc, but stating that msdn has a nice documentation is like saying windows me is a powerful and secure operating system 22:44:18 *** HackaBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has joined #openttd 22:44:38 <glx> I have no problems with objc 22:45:07 <glx> it's just a language 22:45:19 <koda> anyways we're way off topic 22:45:48 <koda> and i think that we just had a bad start 22:45:55 <glx> I just say finding the function I need is easier in MSDN than in OSX doc 22:46:55 <koda> yeah option double click on the function to open it in the documentation is much slower than copying the function, open the browser and paste it msdn search engine... 22:47:20 <koda> but that's personal taste 22:47:46 <sparr> glx: finding the function, yes. finding accurate documentation of what it does or how it works? no chance in hell. 22:48:01 <sparr> if HALF of the information in MSDN is accurate (and not just "usually right") i would be amazed 22:48:57 *** koda [~vittorio@93-38-35-79.ip68.fastwebnet.it] has left #openttd [] 22:49:56 *** HackaLittleBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:50:40 <Rubidium> yup, it's all personal taste. I rather find some dodgy information than no information at all :) 22:53:04 <Terkhen> I have been using MSDN a lot lately... I'm thankul that the documentation is good: the functions are confusing enough 22:53:11 *** Polygon [~Poly@81.163.34.45] has joined #openttd 23:04:35 <sparr> why would high station spread make the game run slower (as it warns in the gui)? 23:05:02 <sparr> Rubidium: five years from now when i have to support your code, I would rather you have spent twice as long finding the right information than have used dodgy information at all. 23:05:22 *** Rubix`` [~wrqwer@cbl-dhcp-5-050.machlink.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:05:40 <Rubidium> because houses/industries need to search further to find out there is no station that will take their cargo 23:05:45 <sparr> thorough-but-wrong documentation from MS regarding MS technologies are the reason for the majority of software issues in the world today 23:06:07 <sparr> why do they need to search further? station spread affects placement, not reach 23:06:35 <sparr> that is, no matter what you set station spread to, no station tile reaches houses more than [intercontinental airport range] away 23:06:39 <glx> the warning has been removed IIRC 23:06:58 <Rubidium> because with a 64 station spread the closest tile might be ~30 tiles away, which it still falls within the reach of the station 23:07:06 <sparr> no? 23:07:27 <Rubidium> with a 8 tile spread it's at most 3 tiles 23:07:31 <sparr> you are mixing up station coverage with station spread 23:07:37 <glx> hmm it's still there indeed, but when it was added station spread was not cached 23:08:08 <glx> sparr: they are related 23:08:09 <sparr> a house has to search 12 tiles away because that's the range of an intercontinental airport, regardless of what station spread is set to 23:08:20 <sparr> (i think its 12) 23:09:12 <sparr> if the nearest station to a house is 13 tiles away, it will not be supplied or taken from, regardless of what station spread is set to 23:09:23 <glx> take a station consisting of 2 bus stops at opposite corners of the max spread 23:09:29 <sparr> ok 23:10:00 <glx> coverage includes all tiles in between 23:10:04 <sparr> err, no? 23:10:21 <sparr> not as indicated in the documentation, the wiki, or on the coverage gui 23:10:35 <sparr> coverage includes all tiles within 4 tiles of either of the two bus stops 23:10:57 <glx> coverage is a square containing coverage of all parts of the station 23:11:15 <sparr> i believe that to be incorrect, and am going to check. brb 23:12:27 <sparr> i find that you are correct... and that every source of information on the subject is wrong 23:13:02 <sparr> that is an amazingly useful piece of information that no person i have discussed station walk with has ever possessed 23:13:48 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r18660 /trunk/src/order_cmd.cpp: -Cleanup: remove useless function 23:14:25 <sparr> so with spread 12, two bus stops of nominal 9x9 coverage can cover every tile in a 20x20 swuare 23:15:58 <Yexo> that's only for delivery of cargo, the houses in between the stops don't supply cargo to the station 23:16:21 <Yexo> and I'm sure it's mentioned in several forum topics 23:16:23 <sparr> Yexo: that is both confusing and enlightening 23:16:35 <sparr> "mentioned in several forum topics" != documented 23:16:36 <Yexo> but there is indeed a lot of wrong information about the topic 23:16:41 <Yexo> true :) 23:17:52 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: Tsch?ss] 23:18:34 <sparr> so coverage for 'accepts' is the whole square, while coverage for 'produces' is just the coverage of the individual station tiles 23:18:48 <Yexo> that' 23:18:51 <Yexo> that's correct 23:18:59 <sparr> that seems like silly design, why? 23:19:27 *** welshdragon [~markmac@client-82-26-76-175.bmly.adsl.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 23:19:31 <Yexo> probably speed 23:19:38 *** HackaLittleBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has joined #openttd 23:19:47 <sparr> err, i would *expect* both ways to use the faster method 23:19:51 <Yexo> for 'accepts' you search from the station, so it's faster to search the whole square then to check each tile 23:19:51 <glx> and source of cargo 23:19:55 <sparr> why do the whole-box search at all? 23:20:10 <Yexo> for 'produces' you search from the house/industry, so it's faster to check if a single station tile is in range 23:20:52 <sparr> that is very counter-intuitive 23:21:02 <glx> because it's easier to store a big box than an union of small boxes 23:21:33 <_ln> planetmaker: why does your SDL bug report block the "hopelessly outdated" bug? 23:21:34 <sparr> meh 23:21:45 <sparr> good to know, but doesn't much alter my gameplay style 23:21:57 <sparr> although I will be sure to exploit it in a coop game at some point just to confuse people :) 23:22:22 <sparr> "how the hell does he have coverage at that industry in the middle of the lake??" 23:24:24 <Yexo> extra fun when playing with invisible station tiles :p 23:26:01 *** HackaBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:27:24 *** DarkED [~J@cpe-075-176-105-070.carolina.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 23:27:56 <_ln> the "hopelessly outdated" bug depends on only three other open bugs that are real bugs. 23:28:43 <_ln> three bugs = hopelessly outdated? ... or is there something essential missing? 23:28:55 <Yexo> the hopelessly outdated bug just depends on all osx specific bugs currently 23:29:29 <_ln> so i've been told, but if the count is really down to three, is it hopelessly outdated anymore? 23:29:56 <Yexo> FS#3447- sdl port unusable, FS#3194-full screen glitch 23:30:00 <Yexo> both seem pretty major problems 23:30:52 <_ln> Yexo: FS#3447 is completely un-major and irrelevant, as the OSX port doesn't use SDL at all by default. 23:31:26 <Yexo> ok, still leaves the other one 23:31:32 <Yexo> and FS#2585 can be annoying 23:32:25 <_ln> agreed, the full screen glitch is a real bug, as well as 2585. 23:33:34 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.77.134] has joined #openttd 23:34:32 <_ln> which reminds me... i think the fullscreen and windowed mode use completely different implementations for drawing. 23:35:34 <_ln> the one for windowed being more elegant, and it could be used for fullscreen too. but was not chosen for fullscreen use due to performance reasons. 23:36:22 *** MyCatSchemes [~mycatverb@5ac7ac11.bb.sky.com] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:36:47 *** HackaBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has joined #openttd 23:37:15 <_ln> the side effect of the current fullscreen code is that OTTD gets complete control of the keyboard and mouse, and there's no way to exit the game if it e.g. halted for some reason. 23:37:40 <_ln> with the alternative way one could apple-tab easily out of the fullscreen application. 23:41:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r18661 /trunk/src/airport_movement.h: -Fix [FS#3169]: aircraft on the metropolitan airport took a long route to the closest loading pad 23:41:45 <Terkhen> good night 23:41:48 *** Terkhen [~Terkhen@240.69.220.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Quit: ...] 23:43:46 *** HackaLittleBit [~Hans@87.196.32.140] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:46:39 <HackaBit> Am I allowed to talk about some doubts that I have with a line of code in CheckTrainCollision :) 23:47:07 <HackaBit> Or is there somebody willing to talk about it? 23:47:50 <Rubidium> well, seems you are willing to talk about it 23:48:00 <HackaBit> thanks 23:48:12 <HackaBit> it is this line:assert(v->track == TRACK_BIT_WORMHOLE || TileVirtXY(v->x_pos, v->y_pos) == v->tile); 23:48:42 <_ln> Rubidium: do you still have me on ignore? 23:48:46 <Rubidium> that seems fine to me 23:49:03 <HackaBit> when train enters tunnel v->tille is not yet assigned 23:49:32 <HackaBit> only some fraction coordinates later 23:50:01 <HackaBit> question why does assert not trigger 23:51:15 <andythenorth> time for bed....one thing: it's been emotional ;) 23:51:18 <andythenorth> good night 23:51:25 *** andythenorth [~andy@87.115.77.134] has left #openttd [] 23:52:23 <Rubidium> HackaBit: probably because v->tile gets assigned in the caller of that function 23:53:29 <Rubidium> i.e. TrainController 23:56:21 <HackaBit> as far as I can see it is only assigned in _tunnel_fractcoord_2[dir] 23:56:47 <HackaBit> tunnel_bridge_cmd 23:58:58 <HackaBit> I was testing rubidiium and only on very rare ocasions it triggers not reproducable for me