Log for #openttd on 13th January 2010:
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00:07:22  <Terkhen> good night
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00:51:03  <ss23> lolwut?
00:52:19  <PeterT> yes, that's the answer
00:52:39  <ss23> >.<
00:52:51  <ss23> I thought he got killed on nick, rather than the bopm
00:52:59  <ss23> And I was like o.O Who added that nick ban
01:00:09  <Eddi|zuHause> why would someone with a nick of "_inf3ct" be infected? :p
01:00:40  <ss23> That's what I was thinking
01:00:48  <ss23> Mabe he just thought it would be lulz to use a proxy anyway
01:01:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and what's with the spammer attack today?
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01:05:47  <PeterT> why is #openttd.notice so behind?
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01:09:07  <Eddi|zuHause> because you broke it.
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01:29:04  <PeterT> Eddi|zuHause: Your logic is flawed.
01:29:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd beg to differ, thank you very much.
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01:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> couldn't someone just g-line everybody who matches *!~devil@*?
01:31:39  <PeterT> Your welcome
01:31:49  <Eddi|zuHause> my welcome indeed
01:31:53  <__ln> whose welcome?
01:32:00  <Eddi|zuHause> your sentence misses a verb, though
01:32:19  <Eddi|zuHause> and either a subject or an object
01:36:06  <ss23> Hmm
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01:36:22  <PeterT> you're missing an object
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01:36:56  <_inf3ct> It was just bugging me that it happend to be that nick every time
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01:47:13  <glx> it's not the need, it's the botnet
01:47:43  <glx> s/need/nick
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01:53:02  <Eddi|zuHause> "brln" <-- so much for /whois not giving away the location :p
01:54:04  <Eddi|zuHause> seriously, any geo-ip database can determine the location within a radius of 20km
01:54:33  <fonsinchen> me?
01:55:26  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: sorry, just a reference to a previous discussion ;)
01:56:18  <fonsinchen> So there's more people from Berlin here? Interesting ...
01:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that part was indeed about you
01:57:55  <Eddi|zuHause> but earlier some guy was /whois-ing people and mistook the server location as the client location
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02:06:59  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: glx est sur le serveur : - Nuernberg, Germany <-- I'm german ;)
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02:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: my condolences :p
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02:24:10  <PeterT> I'm german ;) <-- Really? Is that so?
02:24:21  <PeterT> You make alot of french translations
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02:30:43  <PeterT> that's for you, glx
02:31:52  <glx> you totally misunderstood the point :)
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06:40:02  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:46:44  <Forked> morning, sir and/or ma'am :-)
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06:59:21  <Terkhen> neither, I will not be a person until I have my coffee
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07:01:25  <Forked> hehe
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07:13:07  <Terkhen> hmmm... with each new release, ubuntu looks more like windows
07:13:23  <ss23> Are you talking about gnome or unbuntu?
07:13:35  <Forked> "ubuntu is an african word that means 'freebsd is too hard'"
07:13:45  <Terkhen> ubuntu, I can't talk about other distros
07:14:08  <ss23> Terkhen: No, ubuntu is the distro, Gnome is the name of the software that decides how it looks
07:14:11  <ss23> if that makes sense
07:14:47  <Terkhen> I know, what I mean is that I don't know if the windows-like details are in ubuntu or in gnome because I haven't see gnome at work in other distros to compare
07:16:42  <ss23> Terkhen: Well if it's how it works, the applications they're installing with it, or how the installation process works, basically how it works rather than how it lokos, its ubuntu, if you're talking about how it looks, as in, the color's, the shapes etc, it's gnome
07:17:40  <peter1138> i'd argue the other way around...
07:18:05  <ss23> peter1138: How so?
07:18:27  <Terkhen> I don't know where the problem is, I just know it exists :)
07:18:46  <peter1138> ubuntu: it's linux, running gnome. and it's brown.
07:19:08  <ss23> o.O
07:19:12  <ss23> I don't understand
07:19:30  <ss23> Do you mean the other way around in that it's looking less like windows, or the other way around in the the looks are ubuntu and how it works is gnome?
07:20:15  <peter1138> the latter, pretty much. ignoring installation details of course.
07:20:36  <ss23> o.O
07:20:55  <ss23> Meh
07:20:57  * ss23 vanishes
07:20:57  <peter1138> ubuntu: it's debian. but brown. and more bugs.
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07:23:10  <Terkhen> and it is also becoming slower... I guess that's expected when you chose to imitate windows
07:23:38  <Terkhen> I'll try debian next time
07:26:32  <peter1138> arrr, it snew!
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07:38:21  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
07:44:46  <sparr> ubuntu is a bit easier for a new user because it has better hardware configuration and inter-program integration out of the box
07:45:06  <sparr> I gave kubuntu a couple of years, and ubuntu about a year, but I'm back to debian now.  I can't stand ubuntu's package release cycle.
07:45:57  <sparr> with ubuntu you can have old packages, or broken packages.  i find that to be a false dichotomy and reject it.
07:46:25  <peter1138> with debian you just have old packages :D
07:49:30  <Terkhen> that's why I chose ubuntu at first, almost anything else caused trouble with the laptop I had back then... nothing made me think about changing distro until the 9.x releases
07:51:52  <sparr> peter1138: bah
07:52:08  <sparr> debian is pretty close to cutting edge
07:52:25  <sparr> gentoo and arch stay up to a few weeks ahead, but generally more like a few days
07:52:47  <Rubidium> sparr: that heavily depends on the packages
07:53:04  <sparr> Rubidium: weighted in favor of packages that change often
07:53:37  <Rubidium> is once every two months often enough? :)
07:53:49  <sparr> sure.  which package?  how far behind is debian?
07:54:19  <Rubidium> you say gentoo is ahead, right?
07:54:21  <sparr> every two months is what i would consider a rapid release cycle :)
07:54:40  <Rubidium> I was saying that that just isn't always the case
07:54:45  <sparr> i'd probably say gentoo is the most cutting edge distro, with regard to which and which versions of software are available "packaged"
07:54:52  <Rubidium> e.g. with Debian
07:54:58  <sparr> so, counterexamples?
07:55:02  <Rubidium> uhm... s/Debian/OpenTTD/
07:55:41  <sparr> what version would you expect?
07:55:48  <peter1138> 07:52 < sparr> debian is pretty close to cutting edge
07:55:48  <sparr> 0.7.5 is the latest release
07:55:53  <peter1138> ah, you must be a sid user
07:56:05  <sparr> it's in squeeze too :-p
07:56:08  <sparr> but of course sid
07:56:22  <Rubidium> sparr: I would expect that Gentoo would've stabilized 0.7.5 by now
07:56:46  <sparr> debian "unstable" is more stable every day than ubuntu's final release candidates the day before they release
07:57:10  <peter1138> s/candidates.*//
07:57:27  <Rubidium> ofcourse... three full weeks since 0.7.5 and the CVE announcement they're still not even done on one architecture
07:57:41  <sparr> no 0.7.5 in gentoo?  :(
07:57:44  <sparr> that makes me a little sad
07:58:08  <Rubidium> sparr: only a masked versionr
07:58:53  <Rubidium> though I agree that Debian sid is generally more stable than Ubuntu release and faster than Gentoo
07:58:53  <sparr> but i don't use gentoo for a lot of other reasons
07:59:12  <sparr> debian is the only distro for desktop power users, imho
07:59:34  <peter1138> that's why i run it on all my servers
07:59:58  <sparr> although i would probably choose debian, i could be persuaded to run arch or centos on a server
08:00:12  <sparr> on a desktop...  i only gave ubuntu a chance because it really really tried.  it's just failed.
08:00:59  <Terkhen> failed how?
08:01:31  <peter1138> centos is bloody horrible on a server
08:01:34  <peter1138> never used arch though
08:03:45  <sparr> Terkhen: to produce a distro superior to the alternatives for the uses they aim for
08:04:07  <Rubidium> only thing I consider bad is that debian-security doesn't want to do security updates for contrib; they have to get in via the next point release of the stable
08:04:25  <sparr> there is once again no situation in which i would recommend ubuntu.  even for the complete novice or livecd user there are better options
08:04:55  <Terkhen> what problems you had with ubuntu?
08:05:43  <sparr> like most distros, they abandoned KDE3 for KDE4 far too early.  like almost no other debian-based distro, they ignore otherwise valid upgrade paths, and classify bugs related to such as WONTFIX
08:05:49  <Rubidium> their merry choice to go with pulseaudio, but not going with pulseaudio all the way
08:06:15  <sparr> a .deb is broken if it fails to upgrade (or fail gracefully) from any version to any other version.  in ubuntu, the only "supported" upgrade path is to upgrade one or two versions of the base OS at a time
08:06:33  <jonty-comp> ubuntu used to support my wifi card, then stopped
08:06:34  <sparr> Rubidium: i think simply "pulseaudio" encompasses that whole issue  :)
08:06:37  <sparr> so...
08:06:40  <sparr> pulseaudio :)
08:06:46  <jonty-comp> and their grub changed, so I don't know how to use it anymore
08:06:51  <jonty-comp> well, edit it
08:06:53  <jonty-comp> so debian for me
08:07:01  <jonty-comp> plus I dislike the colour scheme
08:07:02  <Rubidium> see the *countless* bug reports *we* are getting about them not going with pulseaudio all the way
08:07:10  <jonty-comp> and now, off to do a statistics exam, whee
08:07:12  <sparr> ubuntu is rife with package conflicts and inconsistencies.
08:07:51  <Terkhen> okay... I guess after trying debian I'll see what I was missing
08:09:26  <sparr> ubuntu is debian, improved in a few small ways, then broken hard.
08:09:36  <sparr> the worst part of ubuntu is their package release cycle
08:10:17  <sparr> using ubuntu alphas and betas is very dangerous.  i'd say i have averaged 3-5 days every six months when i could not use my computer due to broken packages in ubuntu+1
08:10:31  <sparr> NOT using ubuntu alphas and betas means you are stuck with packages 6-9 months old
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08:11:14  <Noldo> if 6-9 months is too old you really don't have that many choices available
08:11:16  <Rubidium> sparr: to be fair, Debian SID is at the moment uninstallable if you want the amd/ati-fglrx drivers
08:12:44  <sparr> Rubidium: that may be so.  I haven't been naive enough to buy an ATI video card for a linux box in at least 8 years.
08:14:01  <Terkhen> when I started with linux, I had an ATI video card... my last one
08:15:35  <Rubidium> although... the question is what other choices are there? Had an Intel GPU but that was lagging during video playback, never ever liked nvidia.
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08:16:11  <sparr> I've had good experiences with nVidia, SiS, and ColorGraphic cards
08:16:13  <Rubidium> and ATI's driver has been working quite fine (if you don't switch to console and back again)
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08:16:20  <sparr> the latter when I needed 4 and 16 head display outputs
08:16:47  <Rubidium> also choices are quite limited when you're looking for a laptop with 1920x1200 @ 15"
08:16:58  <sparr> i concur
08:17:12  <sparr> [un]fortunately, my eyesight is not good enough to ever shop for such
08:18:59  <Rubidium> nevertheless the new version of the free radeonhd driver looks promising, but then I need to upgrade xorg which means there's no easy way back
08:19:23  <Rubidium> as the fglrx driver doesn't work for the new xorg yet
08:20:11  <Rubidium> anyhow, if 2D acceleration works fine and the powermanagement reasonably... bye bye fglrx :)
08:22:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: gridlines...can you see them?
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09:02:22  * peter1138 ponders merging all his .c/.h files into one
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09:15:55  <peter1138> presumably better for optimization
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09:19:32  <Terkhen> how should I document pure virtual functions? at the virtual declaration, at the real implementation or both?
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09:25:31  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: we really need more information on how to reproduce that AI but there is no AI (multiplayer?) crash. I've tried several things and none seem to trigger it.
09:31:44  <fonsinchen> Well, I don't have much info about it either. I only have the crash reports from xZise in the cargodist thread. They show the same backtrace as the one you have there. As there is a crash.png in the reports and xZise says he was playing on a dedicated server, it has been suggested that these are client-side crashes. Also by opening the crash dump it occured to me that for some company c->is_ai was true and c->ai_instance was null which c
09:32:35  <fonsinchen> I also told xZise to add some info to the FS task. Maybe he'll do.
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09:41:06  <Terkhen> peter1138: regarding r18766, DrawRailEnginePurchaseInfo at build_vehicle_gui.cpp and GetTrainEngineInfoString at engine_gui.cpp are still using the old method
09:41:07  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: your first line is truncated after 'was null which c'
09:41:42  <fonsinchen> which causes the crash
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09:46:49  <Rubidium> valgrind doesn't find anything useful either... this is going to be a big mistery I fear
09:48:03  <fonsinchen> Maybe we can find out where is_ai is set to true and double check that ai_instance is not null there.
09:50:03  <fonsinchen> I see three places: in the constructor of Company, in LoadOldCompany and in the saveload-Handler
09:50:36  <fonsinchen> Probably only the Constructor can be the cause of this crash.
09:52:52  <fonsinchen> ai_instance is written in Ai::StartNew and Ai::Stop
09:53:09  <Terkhen> DrawWidget at vehicle_gui.cpp also uses the old method of determining if a train uses maglev acceleration... I'll create a flyspray task
09:53:30  <fonsinchen> So there must be some situation where the Company constructor is called with true, but no AI is created ...
09:57:04  <fonsinchen> if (is_ai && (!_networking || _network_server)) AI::StartNew(c->index);
09:57:12  <fonsinchen> So it won't start on the client, right?
09:57:30  <fonsinchen> This is from company_cmd.cpp:497
09:59:19  <fonsinchen> Rubidium: at company_cmd.cpp:472 a company is created, possibly with is_ai == true. In line 497 the AI used for that company is created, but not on network clients.
09:59:52  <peter1138> Terkhen, create a patch ;
10:00:27  <Terkhen> done, I'm currently testing if I messed up something :)
10:00:37  <Terkhen> I'll upload it after testing
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10:16:27  <Terkhen> done:
10:20:50  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: okay, that creates a company without instance set, but *only* when a client right?
10:21:37  <Rubidium> because AI::GameLoop bails out if "networking && (!server || !ai-in-mp)"
10:22:08  <Rubidium> so locally ai-in-mp must be enabled, which is easy to prove it can happen
10:22:31  <Rubidium> and it must be a network server, which is quite unlikely
10:22:42  <Rubidium> or it must not be a network game
10:24:01  <Rubidium> unless...
10:24:23  <Rubidium> you're kicked out of a network game but keep playing the game you were playing
10:30:09  <Rubidium> but as far as I can remember there is no code path for leaving the server and continueing to play
10:33:14  <Rubidium> although... maybe it is triggerable under Windows because of the different video backend and possibly different timings, but I seriously doubt that
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10:39:12  <fonsinchen> I'll have a second look at it later
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12:24:57  <Eddi|zuHause> [13.01.2010 09:23] <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: gridlines...can you see them? <--- i can't see any gridlines
12:25:55  <andythenorth>  Eddi|zuHause ok, either (i) they're too light, (ii) you have a crazy monitor setting or (iii) your browser has cached the images
12:28:55  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: seems to be a cache thingy...
12:29:39  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the grid looks offset by a few pixels...
12:30:12  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like at the south corner of the bakery, it doesn't seem properly aligned
12:31:08  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like this for most of the south corners
12:39:46  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: must be a perceptual thing with the pixels of the ground tile.  it is on the gridline correctly
12:39:52  <andythenorth> the grid isn't quite drawn as might be expected, as I want 1px lines.  So the NW / SW edges sit over the gridline, the NE/SE edges site next to the gridline.
12:39:56  <andythenorth> (gridlines in game are 2px wide)
12:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but it doesn't look nice...
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12:45:38  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
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12:48:32  <Nite_Owl> Sidewinder x8 or MX1100 ?? (no one is awake in the other channel)
12:49:40  <Eddi|zuHause> is that a chainsaw?
12:49:56  <Eddi|zuHause> or a motor cycle?
12:49:56  <ss23> Eddi|zuHause: mice >.<
12:50:24  <ss23> Special breeds
12:52:01  <Nite_Owl> Okay then - what is your preferred mouse
12:53:26  <thingwath> I had a hamster.
12:54:01  <ss23> Nite_Owl: Just any field mouse is fine for me
12:54:46  <Noldo> har har
12:55:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i prefer guinea pigs
12:55:36  <Eddi|zuHause> they're slightly larger and fit my hand better
12:59:59  <wysiwtf> how do i enable gridlines?
13:01:00  <wysiwtf> and which GRFs would you suggest if one doesnt really care for realistic vehicles/trains but just wants a fun and enhanced gameplay without messing up too much gamebalance?
13:01:09  <Noldo> I'm in the understanding that it is a feature in the ground tile graphics
13:03:28  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the bakery now has a 2px grid.  Any better?
13:03:42  <andythenorth> (probably be cached again)
13:05:02  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what if you just move the old grid one pixel to the left?
13:06:35  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: offset grid...might work:
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13:07:47  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that looks better
13:08:47  <andythenorth> ok, I'll re-export them all with that <sigh>
13:08:54  <andythenorth> colour of the lines work for you?
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13:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, it's fine
13:13:06  <andythenorth> :)
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15:03:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18794 /trunk/src/crashlog.cpp: -Codechange: add local company and network 'state' to the crash log
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16:28:03  <Ammler> he, people can't differ between Multiplayer and NoAI-AIs :-)
16:29:19  * Rubidium wonders what Ammler is thinking about
16:29:24  <Rubidium> hope it isn't FS#3445
16:29:52  <dihedral> @fs 3445
16:29:52  <DorpsGek> dihedral:
16:30:14  <dihedral> yeah ... "It works!"
16:31:01  <Ammler> Rubidium: the Intro save game competition thread.
16:32:10  <Ammler> someone used AIs and Alberth complained about, now they think, Multiplayer isn't allowed for the save
16:32:39  * dihedral hands Ammler an "it"
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16:33:10  <Ammler> thanks :-)
16:33:21  <dihedral> you always forget that one!!
16:33:49  <Ammler> true :'-(
16:35:39  <Ammler> isn't it possible to remove a AI without deleting the company?
16:41:18  <Rubidium> not with a default client IIRC
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16:45:37  <Timmaexx> G'evening
16:50:45  <glx> Rubidium: he just needs to set number of oppenents to 0 and find a way to crash the AIs ;)
16:51:49  <Yexo> glx: no,then the AI would restart when you load the savegame again
16:52:05  <glx> that's the first step :)
16:53:19  <glx> anyway if the AI then always crash on start it's ok
16:53:34  <glx> but not clean ;)
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17:30:36  <Belugas> hello
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17:40:51  <Terkhen> hi Belugas
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18:39:47  <Wolf01> hello
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18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r18795 /trunk/src/lang/ (dutch.txt portuguese.txt spanish.txt):
18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 36 changes by
18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 190 changes by Hirundo
18:45:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: portuguese - 2 changes by JayCity
18:45:40  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
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19:00:02  <duharmail> I am looking for some Swedes to play with
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19:14:46  <Belugas> racist
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19:20:19  <sparr> so hard to go back to 0.7.5 after getting used to 0.8.0-svn and 1.0.0-beta
19:21:17  <Rubidium> really? All those people that claim that there're not much new features in 1.0.0/trunk over 0.7
19:21:21  <Ammler> sparr go farer, something like 0.4.5 then ;-)
19:22:17  <Rubidium> well... a few weeks ago frosch and I played a network game... but nobody else joined
19:22:28  <Rubidium> we were quite sad nobody wanted to join the nice 0.3.5 server :)
19:22:45  <planetmaker> haha :-)
19:23:30  <sparr> Rubidium: well, not having opengfx is one big change, but the one that keeps getting me is all the missing global keyboard shortcuts
19:23:59  <sparr> Rubidium: like, 0.7.5 only accepts terraforming keys when the tf bar is open, but all newer versions accept them from anywhere
19:24:00  <Rubidium> opengfx works in 0.7.5 too (opensfx doesn't though)
19:24:08  <sparr> it WORKS
19:24:20  <sparr> but it's not 100%
19:24:30  <sparr> openSFX too
19:24:38  <sparr> i had to go find the old GRFs before i could run 0.7.5
19:24:44  <sparr> GRF/CATs
19:24:44  <Rubidium> opensfx does not work in 0.7.5
19:24:55  <sparr> "too" as in it's a problem too :)
19:27:19  <sparr> it took me like 20 minutes to "acquire" a copy of
19:28:54  <frosch123> "few weeks ago" :p
19:30:16  <frosch123> but, yeah, the "my first internet game was with 0.3.5" was definitely worth playing for :p
19:31:23  <Rubidium> year, time is relative :)
19:33:17  <peter1138> i think mine was...
19:40:27  <andythenorth> hi hi
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19:46:08  <PeterT> @seen fonsinchen
19:46:08  <DorpsGek> PeterT: fonsinchen was last seen in #openttd 9 hours, 6 minutes, and 55 seconds ago: <fonsinchen> I'll have a second look at it later
19:47:07  * andythenorth shouldn't be annoyed by forums users but is.
19:47:15  * Forked didn't do it
19:48:01  <andythenorth> hi hi
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19:48:20  <Belugas> andythenorth, you'll eventually get used to it...
19:48:34  <Belugas> some are good, some are...
19:48:37  <Belugas> hurgh
19:49:04  <andythenorth> some are even right, but so fricking annoying I want to argue with them....even when they're right
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19:56:51  <peter1138> hell hyeha
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20:04:33  <planetmaker> andythenorth, I know that feeling, too ;-)
20:04:43  <planetmaker> not a good one, though :S
20:05:25  <Belugas> what blew me up, is that guy who though that nightlies never work :[
20:05:39  <planetmaker> hehe.
20:06:08  <planetmaker> I read that and thought something like "let others put this guys head straight. Even if not: not our loss"
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20:07:00  <Yexo> that guy didn't annoy me much, he just didn't know better
20:10:54  * frosch123 was again lucky and missed that post :p
20:11:13  <planetmaker> :-) sure he didn't (doesn't?) know better.
20:12:15  <Yexo> I find djlazy much more annoying
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20:15:50  <Belugas> mmh...nice quote...
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20:19:36  * andythenorth ponders learning C++
20:19:37  <Eddi|zuHause> <sparr> it took me like 20 minutes to "acquire" a copy of <- it takes me 5 seconds to open a console and type "touch"
20:19:59  <planetmaker> Yexo, djlazy?
20:20:20  <Yexo> yes, that guy that cannot spell nor read
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20:22:08  <andythenorth> most programming languages suck.  does C++ suck?
20:22:17  <SpComb> andythenorth: of course
20:22:23  <SpComb> andythenorth: and some programming languages suck more than others
20:22:42  <SpComb> depending on who you ask, of course
20:22:45  <andythenorth> as a thing to work with nfo is quite pleasing.  Does C++ suck a lot more than nfo?
20:23:01  <Belugas> some less.  but they all sucks dependeing of yuor degree of ignorance on it
20:23:05  <Alberth> less, you can use letters!
20:23:18  <SpComb> NFO is more comparable to ASM
20:23:27  <Belugas> waht i mean, the more you are good in one, the more you like it
20:23:38  <SmatZ> hehe
20:23:54  <andythenorth> Belugas: I (was) bloody good at Actionscript, and I hate it
20:23:58  <Alberth> hmm, that must be why I don't like Eclipse :p
20:24:00  <andythenorth> I'm crap at python, but I love it
20:24:07  <fjb> C++ has a crude syntax, lacks garbage collection and design by contract. Else it is quite ok.
20:24:09  <SmatZ> "the more you are force to use it, the more you hate it" can be true too
20:24:11  <frosch123> and the less you know, the more you believe they are the best and suited for everything
20:24:12  <SmatZ> *forced
20:24:21  <SmatZ> hehe
20:24:24  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: C++ "sucks" in the way that it has many pitfalls for people who don't know exactly what they're doing
20:24:26  <SpComb> fjb: it has a looooong list of faults
20:24:32  <Rubidium> fjb: and java sucks because it has garbage collection, right?
20:24:55  <SmatZ> :-)
20:24:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's the main thing that puts me off trying to hack anything on OpenTTD
20:25:04  <Alberth> Rubidium: lack of pointers, imho :p
20:25:05  <fjb> Rubidium: Java sucks because it lacks multiple inheritance and design by contact.
20:25:36  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: don't let that put you off, but get advise from people more experienced than you when you're done
20:25:57  <Rubidium> Alberth: so you're a C# fanboy :)
20:26:09  <Rubidium> that does have pointers... kindof
20:26:32  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but in a way that you shouldn't ever use for a sane program?
20:26:43  <fjb> And Java has Objects and other types. You have to put an integer into an integer object to do object oriented things with it. :-(
20:26:51  <Alberth> Rubidium: wrong manufacturer, but LINQ seems kind of cool.
20:26:54  <SpComb> andythenorth: even better, OpenTTD is still largely C
20:27:12  <Rubidium> SpComb: yeah, C compiled with C++ :)
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20:32:20  <Terkhen> I love C++, probably because it's the language I have used most frequently
20:32:38  <andythenorth> the OpenTTD src mostly makes sense if I just pick a file and try and read it....but I can't picture how the whole thing hangs together
20:33:03  <frosch123> start with something you know :)
20:33:14  <andythenorth> ummm...python?  pixels?
20:34:01  <frosch123> well, no idea what hacking you want to do :) do you want to become the osx maintainer?
20:34:05  <Terkhen> but when you think that you understand a part of OpenTTD code, something strange appears that shatters your understanding :P
20:34:23  <Yexo> you don't have to understand all of the code to work with it
20:34:30  <andythenorth> frosch123: no, I don't want to maintain the OS X port.  Sad to say.
20:34:55  <frosch123> Terkhen: as nfo coder andy is used to that :p
20:35:10  <Terkhen> Yexo: that's why I'm able to make patches :)
20:35:13  <Rubidium> speaking of the OS X port... that's Bjarni's turf... so your understanding is probably better than Bjarni's
20:35:36  <andythenorth> my understanding of OS X internals is 0%
20:36:30  <andythenorth> I feel bad saying that, if there hadn't been a fully-working Mac OpenTTD I would never have bothered playing it
20:37:02  <andythenorth> but now I can either compile myself, or use Crossover / Wine
20:38:29  <peter1138>
20:38:32  <peter1138> NSFW!
20:42:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am looking for newgrf industry code in openttd src.  Not so much to hack on something, but to understand it...
20:42:54  <andythenorth> newgrf_industries_h seems pretty sparse
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20:44:53  <Yexo> andythenorth: try newgrf.cpp and newgrf_industries.cpp
20:45:05  <Yexo> and industry_cmd.cpp has a lot of code too
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20:45:10  <frosch123> and newgrf_industrytiles :)
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20:45:19  <frosch123> start with grepping for "Variable" :p
20:45:38  <andythenorth> thanks
20:46:03  <frosch123> or look into newgrf_callback.h, for stuff to grep for
20:47:52  <Alberth> andythenorth: for 'the bigger picture', I often follow function calls, jumping from one file to another, and reading small parts of it.
20:48:14  <andythenorth> ok, thanks
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20:48:36  <frosch123> so, get an editor with ctags support :p
20:48:39  <andythenorth> have any of you ever coded Flash?
20:48:52  <frosch123> no
20:49:16  <Yexo> not really
20:49:26  <andythenorth> ...used to leave code everywhere.  include files, timeline code, code on objects, code on object timelines...
20:49:28  <andythenorth> madness
20:49:36  <andythenorth> but strangely intuitive
20:49:57  <Alberth> until it became too large?
20:50:09  <Terkhen> sounds like NFO
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20:50:49  <Alberth> 'intuitive' would not be my description of NFO :p
20:51:08  <Terkhen> no, but it becomes strangely intuitive after a while
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20:51:58  <planetmaker> it has a kinda funny learning curve
20:52:23  <planetmaker> it's all gibberish until you stared long enough at it. Then it suddenly starts to make sense not only in parts
20:52:43  <planetmaker> assuming that it's at least somewhat documented nfo and not de-compiled one. That's harder
20:53:01  <andythenorth> coded this in flash many years ago (turn your sound down first)
20:53:01  <andythenorth>
20:53:12  <Terkhen> I did not know about ctags O_O
20:53:31  <Terkhen> not for gedit and notepad++, at least
20:53:44  <Alberth> planetmaker: like vi :p
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20:54:08  <planetmaker> Alberth, yes, kinda :-)
20:54:19  <andythenorth> first one to find the conceptual flaw in that flash game wins....err the game really easily :)
20:54:29  <planetmaker> Once gotten the hang of it, there's no easier "quickly edit these few lines" editor
20:55:29  <Alberth> perhaps emacs, but since vi and emacs are mutually exclusive... :)
20:55:42  <dihedral>
20:55:45  <dihedral> :-D
20:57:11  <dihedral> does anybody know something of TrueBrain?
20:57:37  <Rubidium> is that a retorical question or not?
20:57:52  <dihedral> was not suppose to be
20:58:28  <Rubidium> in that case... I know his real name
20:58:35  <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of information should we have?
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20:58:47  <dihedral> well - not seen him in a while
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20:59:04  <Terkhen> andythenorth: it reminds me of tsuro
20:59:06  <dihedral> i am not used to not seing him on irc for a longer period of time
20:59:20  <Alberth> visit #opendune
20:59:22  <Yexo> try #opendune
20:59:40  <dihedral> try /whois TrueBrain
20:59:45  <andythenorth> Terkhen: try using the bomb to build a loop track....endless points :)
20:59:46  <Rubidium> maybe because I possibly killed his bouncer
21:00:00  <dihedral> ah :-)
21:00:18  <Rubidium> but then... I killed way more at that moment
21:02:35  <dihedral> looks like someone likes killing stuff
21:02:36  <dihedral> :P
21:03:40  <Rubidium> nah, only as final solution
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21:07:58  <peter1138> # it's the final solution, da na na naaaa
21:08:34  <Terkhen> andythenorth: and after pausing in a curve, some parts of the train start moving in the opposite direction :P looks nice anyways, I'll bookmark it to play later
21:09:34  <andythenorth> I made email friends with phil steinmeyer (creator of railroad tycoon 2 and 3) due to that game :)
21:11:59  *** Zahl [~Zahl@2002:5ce2:d7b9:1:98ed:eeac:c742:19a2] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
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21:14:57  <dihedral> like i said, you seem to like killing stuff :-P
21:15:08  <Terkhen> you didn't had problems using the name of his game then :P
21:15:30  <andythenorth> Terkhen: it was marketing for RT3, they paid for it :)
21:15:57  *** amiles [] has joined #openttd
21:17:47  <Terkhen> even better
21:20:00  * andythenorth wonders if reading src is actually easier than the newgrf wiki
21:20:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth, not really :-)
21:20:27  <planetmaker> but it depends
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21:22:27  <Sp4rk> Hello can someone help me with a question about open ttd?
21:22:39  *** |Terkhen| [] has joined #openttd
21:22:53  <PeterT> Sp4rk: You need to ask the question first.
21:23:26  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
21:23:34  <Sp4rk> The messages or "news" that slides up at the bottom of the screen while playing. Is there a way to disable them? They're a bit distracting.
21:24:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Sp4rk: yes, click and hold the newspaper icon at the top
21:24:14  <PeterT> Newspaper -> Message settings
21:24:14  <Eddi|zuHause> there you can select the message options
21:24:36  <Sp4rk> Thank you so much!
21:24:43  <Sp4rk> (both of you lol)
21:24:58  <Sp4rk> :)
21:25:01  <Sp4rk> bye now
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21:32:32  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:35:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18796 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix [FS#3521]: [SDL] possible deadlock when killing OpenTTD while starting it
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21:36:13  <andythenorth> frosch123: I am looking at how industry var 68 accesses the layout of other industries...
21:36:27  *** Eddi|zuHause [] has joined #openttd
21:36:46  <andythenorth> ...if 'i->selected_layout == layout_filter' is possible, what about 'i->was_cargo_delivered' ?
21:37:06  <andythenorth> (or if anyone else knows...I owe frosch123 a lot of cookies already)
21:37:45  <frosch123> andythenorth: then better add some variable that generally reads some variable of an industry
21:38:04  <frosch123> just imagine the mess of lots of read x of nearby industry matching y criterion
21:38:04  *** ecke [~ecke@] has joined #openttd
21:38:34  <andythenorth> true, but the simple way....I stand a better chance of hacking for myself maybe? test some industry ideas...
21:42:26  <PeterT> yay, openttd.notice is fixed
21:42:54  <Hirundo> Yexo: thanks for the quick reply
21:44:59  <frosch123> bad luck PeterT, i pondered offering the job to you
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21:47:33  * andythenorth : extending industry var 68 might be fun, but is perhaps a bit much for 'my first c++ project' :|
21:47:49  <andythenorth> maybe I should go modify a GUI widget or something
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21:49:27  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r18797 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix (r18781): building wagons didn't add them to a train
21:49:55  <Yexo> andythenorth: modifying var67/var68 is actually pretty easy
21:50:00  <Yexo> depending on what you want of course
21:50:20  <Yexo> but the only funciton you need to modify is GetCountAndDistanceOfClosestInstance in newgrf_industries.cpp
21:50:49  *** helb [~helb@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:50:51  <andythenorth> Yexo: I want to add arbitrary access to other variables in other industries
21:51:04  <Yexo> ah, that's more difficult
21:51:14  <andythenorth> yes
21:51:31  <andythenorth> but really I only need was_cargo_delivered for my purpose
21:51:46  <andythenorth> the problem is, I can only test it works if the nfo also works :o
21:52:23  <frosch123> hehe, so maybe learn where to place printfs and simliar in the code to help yourself debugging the nfo :)
21:52:30  <planetmaker> but the production callback.... doesn't it provide already information whether cargo was delivered?
21:52:37  <andythenorth> planetmaker: this is for another industry
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21:52:48  <andythenorth> i.e. somewhere else
21:53:01  <frosch123> planetmaker: andy wants to teleport cargo from survey camp to nearby industries or so :p
21:53:06  <andythenorth> know how some FIRS industries 'need electricity to boost production'...
21:53:07  <planetmaker> oh. Whether nearby industry works? Right. Sorry, missed that
21:53:15  <Yexo> andythenorth: main problem I see is: what industry should be returned? always the closest ofthe given (filtered) type?
21:53:23  <andythenorth> Yexo: yes, closest is fine
21:55:14  <frosch123> well, so you need a variable that takes a industry_type (maybe also grfid) and a industry variable to read. but it gets more difficult if the variable itself needs a paramter or even some register value. (of course you also need to block recursions :p)
21:55:57  <frosch123> and i need to know, why i _always_ miss some "e" in parameter
21:56:28  <andythenorth> frosch123...dunno, what does the wiki say?
21:56:29  <andythenorth> :P
21:57:10  <andythenorth>
21:57:48  <andythenorth> oh.  google doesn't know!
21:58:08  *** asilv [] has quit []
21:58:30  <andythenorth> hey I broke the game :)  my compile failed.  I won't be getting ships that are 2x as expensive to run :)
21:59:04  * andythenorth tries again
21:59:52  <Terkhen> andythenorth: are you going to code improved acceleration for ships? :P
22:00:15  <andythenorth> ummm, I think we discussed that....
22:00:25  <andythenorth> ...but I forget, do ships go faster uphill or downhill?
22:01:07  <Terkhen> I don't remember reaching any conclusions
22:02:14  <andythenorth> Terkhen: supporting ship props 14 and 15 might be interesting
22:02:15  <andythenorth>
22:02:25  <andythenorth> currently TTDPatch only I think
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22:04:09  <Terkhen> it does not sound complicated
22:04:50  * andythenorth made ships 2x as expensive to run *without the aid of newgrf* :o
22:05:23  * Yexo thinks a lot of people would find it more difficult to do *with the aid of newgrfs* :p
22:05:30  <Phoenix_the_II> btw guys, is libtimidity required for compiling openttd?
22:05:40  <Phoenix_the_II> or what do i miss if it aint installed
22:06:20  <Yexo> midi (so sound/music) I think
22:07:13  <Phoenix_the_II> and running openttd on kubuntu karmic 9.10 will generate 100% cpu all the time + quitting the game is impossible
22:07:18  <Phoenix_the_II> have to kill -9 the game
22:07:42  <planetmaker> I guess that is in the known bugs list
22:07:46  <dihedral> that does not sound like a timidity thing
22:07:47  <Alberth> that problem is discussed in the readme
22:07:56  <Phoenix_the_II> o rly
22:07:57  <Phoenix_the_II> :P
22:08:14  <planetmaker> like "not our bug. Use proper libraries" or alike ;-)
22:08:17  <Phoenix_the_II> which readme? :)
22:08:19  <dihedral> odd - i do not have that issue on ubuntu 9.10
22:08:36  <Phoenix_the_II> there is only a windows and OS2 readme
22:08:42  <frosch123> [23:03] <andythenorth> Terkhen: supporting ship props 14 and 15 might be interesting  <- but kind of deprecated with rivers, aren't they?
22:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> the readme of your tv remote control, of course
22:08:56  <Alberth>
22:09:02  <Phoenix_the_II> Eddi|zuHause thanks never knew it had openttd stuff in it
22:09:06  <Phoenix_the_II> ty Alberth
22:09:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: I've never used rivers.   I suppose rivers also  should have a different speed limit to oceans?
22:09:37  <Terkhen> hmmm... either rivers use the canal variable or a new variable needs to be reserved
22:09:37  <dihedral> i have no idea how readme.txt is considered either a windows or os/2 only readme
22:10:02  <frosch123> Terkhen: or you just add a "water class" variable and do the rest with callback 36 :p
22:10:10  <dihedral> andythenorth, how do you get a speedlimit on water??
22:10:13  <planetmaker> Terkhen, it would make rather sense to ... ^
22:10:16  * planetmaker is slow
22:10:21  <frosch123> ais get fooled either way
22:10:32  <Eddi|zuHause> water type should be treated the same way as road type and rail type...
22:10:44  <planetmaker> indeed
22:11:01  <frosch123> you mean strict compatibility instead of speed penalties?
22:11:16  <Terkhen> nothing is as simple as it seems at first :)
22:11:16  <planetmaker> nah, the patch to come ;-)
22:11:17  <frosch123> problem is: you can build canal nearly everywhere
22:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean provide the same callback structure
22:11:57  <Eddi|zuHause> let the newgrf authors figure out how to restrict stuff on their own ;)
22:12:01  <frosch123> and "sea" does not mean that it is wider than one tile :p
22:12:09  <andythenorth> I am just trying to figure out if ship speed would ever differ by more than a few mph on different water types...
22:12:18  <andythenorth> i.e. is there any gameplay benefit?
22:12:23  <planetmaker> frosch123, despite it could make for an interesting twist with ships
22:12:42  <planetmaker> Making oversea ships and coastal ships a distinct class of their own
22:12:53  <planetmaker> given proper scenarios :-)
22:13:00  <Phoenix_the_II> Alberth just read the readme, my problem isnt discussed in it?
22:13:04  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: possibly one might want to distinguish water tiles that have no shore next to them
22:13:06  <frosch123> andythenorth: well, if you restrict big ships to sea, and small to canal (i.e. both with 10% speed on the other class) :p
22:13:07  <dihedral> why on earth is plane and ship speed measured in mph or kmh and not knots? :-P
22:13:27  <andythenorth> dihedral: because no-one has coded that yet?
22:13:34  <Yexo> Phoenix_the_II: see known-bugs.txt ->
22:13:48  <frosch123> dihedral: lies, they are 1/2 kmh or so
22:13:55  <Phoenix_the_II> Yexo bingo!
22:13:56  <Phoenix_the_II> :P
22:14:00  <Phoenix_the_II> using pulse here yea
22:14:16  <Eddi|zuHause> myfineshrine wants to do a central europe scenario with "raised" sea level, i.e. only rivers, so you can build a canal tunnel
22:14:25  <dihedral> andythenorth, clever boy - get a yourself a biscuit
22:14:39  <dihedral> Phoenix_the_II, i am using pulse too ;-)
22:14:49  <dihedral> bu i have a bunch of pulse mods installed
22:14:54  <andythenorth> 1 knot = 1.852 km/h
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22:15:00  <planetmaker> dihedral, knots is just mph. With a different mile as base ;-)
22:15:05  * andythenorth looks for some code that shows ship display speed
22:15:38  <dihedral> planetmaker, in an env with no windspeed, yeah!
22:15:51  <planetmaker> dihedral, uhm...? everywhere?
22:15:55  <Yexo> andythenorth: try GetDisplaySpeed in ship.h
22:15:59  <planetmaker> knots = sea miles per hour
22:16:07  <Phoenix_the_II> dihedral
22:16:11  <Phoenix_the_II> using pulse on alsa here
22:16:25  <dihedral> interesting!
22:16:28  <planetmaker> s/sea/nautical/
22:16:32  <frosch123> night
22:16:36  <andythenorth> by frosch123
22:16:37  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:16:37  <planetmaker> night frosch
22:16:40  <andythenorth> bye /s
22:16:45  <dihedral> installing 9.10 should setup the same base install
22:16:52  <andythenorth> where are speed suffix strings defined?
22:16:59  <planetmaker> translations
22:17:02  <Terkhen> andythenorth: messing with units is more complicated than it seems, check my attempt to display weight with decimals at the improved rv patch
22:17:15  <andythenorth> Terkhen: :o
22:17:50  <Phoenix_the_II> yay
22:18:04  <Phoenix_the_II> libsdl1.2debian-pulseaudio+ recompiling fixed it :)
22:18:07  <dihedral> pm: i was thinking of the instrumentation error :-P
22:18:26  <dihedral> i.e. a plane on the ground heading in the wind, not moving at all, wind 10 knts
22:18:35  <dihedral> will show a 'speed' of 10 knts :-P
22:18:36  <planetmaker> dihedral, you can use (and is used) GPS for its determination
22:18:50  <planetmaker> ships != planes :-)
22:18:56  <dihedral> i know :-D
22:19:04  <dihedral> but measured in knts in both cases :-D
22:19:07  <dihedral> well - not always
22:19:08  <planetmaker> indeed
22:19:37  <planetmaker> 2 20 knots indicated air speed :-) - may as well be only 150 knots ground speed
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22:19:42  <dihedral> some older planes used to do (and still do) meters and kmh
22:19:47  <planetmaker> if flying against the equatorial jets
22:20:28  <dihedral> check the thrust gauges of the engines :-D
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22:20:37  <dihedral> assuming jets :-)
22:20:41  <planetmaker> :-P
22:20:53  <planetmaker> those jets are wind jets ;-)
22:21:42  <dihedral> or follow the rpm gauge on your prop :-P
22:22:10  <planetmaker> well. All which really matters is indicated air speed and altitude
22:22:28  <planetmaker> <-- I talked about those jets ;-)
22:22:45  <dihedral> LOL
22:22:57  * andythenorth lots of players won't understand knots anyway
22:23:03  <planetmaker> they slow down the plane jets ;-) - independent of their propulsion
22:23:05  <dihedral> check youtube for "jam jar pulse jet"
22:23:29  * andythenorth my ships *seem* like they go faster in mph.  knots will make me look bad  9.9
22:23:35  <planetmaker> they actually make for the different travel times from and to the US from here
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22:37:34  <Terkhen> I managed to break X Server 10 minutes after finishing Debian installation
22:37:46  <ss23> Nice Terkhen
22:37:46  <ss23> :P
22:38:16  <Terkhen> is there any kind of prize? :)
22:38:53  <Rubidium> no, 10 minutes is quite a lot of time
22:39:11  <Rubidium> I managed to get X server to be broken after installation
22:39:47  <Terkhen> wow, I still have a lot to learn
22:39:48  <Rubidium> okay, I'm talking about potato here
22:45:49  <Terkhen> hmmm... time to start again, I guess
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23:01:03  *** Dred_furst [] has quit [Quit: Leaving]
23:01:54  <Terkhen> good night
23:01:55  *** Terkhen [] has quit [Quit: ...]
23:09:05  *** Chrill [] has joined #openttd
23:10:14  <fjb> X and hald is a nasty combination.
23:12:53  *** Rubix`` [] has quit [Quit: Ping timeout: 540 seconds]
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23:26:43  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
23:26:54  <PeterT> git-god, oh git-god, are you here?
23:27:01  <PeterT> ashb: that means you
23:27:13  <fjb> Moin Nite_Owl
23:28:16  <Nite_Owl> Hello fjb
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23:40:47  <ashb> PeterT: yes?
23:40:54  <PeterT> never mind, it's been
23:40:55  <PeterT> fixed
23:40:57  <ashb> kk
23:41:09  <PeterT> when typing the GIT repo's url manually, it won't checkout properly
23:42:25  <ashb> hmm?
23:44:14  <PeterT> well, it works now
23:44:25  <PeterT> thanks for coming to help anyway
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23:46:29  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
23:48:21  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anybody care to explain what might cause the computer to simply shut off during memtest?
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23:53:41  <SpComb>
23:54:39  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: electrical shorts, bad CPU, bad motherboard, bad RAM
23:55:11  <sparr> Eddi|zuHause: the good news is that behavior is one of the few that can be absolutely guaranteed to be a hardware problem :)
23:55:46  <SpComb> pfft, triggering a triple fault is trivial
23:57:43  <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: but it says reboot, not turn off

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