Log for #openttd on 19th May 2010:
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04:02:21  <cypheryob> thats alot of people
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06:27:46  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:09:01  <gartral> what ports do i need to open for openttd?
08:09:13  <peter1138> !ports
08:09:16  <gartral> erm, hosting a game/server that is
08:09:20  <peter1138> @openttd ports
08:09:20  <DorpsGek> peter1138: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
08:09:50  <gartral> GRRRRRRRRR... i hate rerouting combined ports
08:09:55  <erani> :D
08:10:34  * gartral has crappy old router that doesnt think it's possible to listen and send on same external port
08:13:53  <gartral> what method does OpenTTD use to encapsulate packets? (yes. I have to tell my router what kind of traffic to expect, or else it's retarded logic will choke the connection)
08:15:31  <peter1138> as DorpsGek said, TCP and UDP
08:17:38  <gartral> yes.. but my router wants to know "packet encapsulation" (aka application type) my choices: FTP server, H.232 IP telephony, DirectPlay (DX8 standard), DP (DX9), DP (DX10), IRC server, PPTP, and SIP-based telephony...
08:17:51  <Noldo> no custom?
08:17:54  <gartral> nope.
08:18:00  <Noldo> too bad
08:18:01  <peter1138> lol
08:18:05  <peter1138> stupid router
08:18:10  <gartral> it's the hight of retarded.. and my school demands i use it
08:18:30  <gartral> ill do DP DX9
08:19:49  <gartral> actually.. i think AT&T demands my school demands i use it... but w/e
08:22:03  <gartral> also: openTTD askes "do you want to quit and return to UNIX?" im not on unix.. im on linux! :P
08:22:30  <Noldo> not you too
08:22:49  <gartral> ok, ok.. i understand theres not much difference
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08:24:36  <peter1138> and yet we have STR_OSNAME_SUNOS
08:25:00  <peter1138> (When was that rebranded Solaris?)
08:25:36  <gartral> but it would be nice if someone implemented a call too uname -v...
08:25:53  <peter1138> $ uname -v
08:25:53  <peter1138> #1 SMP Tue Mar 9 22:29:32 UTC 2010
08:25:54  <peter1138> yeah
08:25:56  <peter1138> useful
08:25:59  <Noldo> :D
08:26:21  <gartral> mine reports #33-Ubuntu SMP Wed Apr 28 13:28:05 UTC 2010
08:26:45  <SpComb> `uname -o` -> GNU/Linux <3
08:26:48  <gartral> or uname -s
08:26:51  <SpComb> so OpenTTD can aknowledge the GNU thing as well
08:26:52  <peter1138> aye, we can't help it if ubuntu mess everything around
08:27:32  <gartral> if i boot up my fedora box, uname -v reports #34-Fedora-some-date
08:27:55  <SpComb> that's just the kernel version string
08:28:01  <Noldo> why is it retrun to something anyway
08:28:09  <Noldo> do most people play in fullscreen?
08:28:20  <Markk> Hello, very random question, but what would you call "Reception Responsible" with other words in english?
08:28:25  <gartral> i do.. if im hosting the game
08:28:34  <peter1138> what does 'reception responsible' even mean?
08:28:45  <Markk> I think responsible sounds like an bad translation.
08:28:47  <gartral> mean responsable for recieving...
08:29:03  <Markk> That you're in charge of the Reception (In an hotel eg.)
08:32:59  <Markk> Hm, Reception Manager maybe?
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08:42:15  <gartral> how do you see chat history in game?
08:44:12  <planetmaker> via console
08:44:18  <planetmaker> you can scroll there
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08:45:43  <gartral> `?
08:45:57  <Markk> gartral: Press §
08:46:09  <Markk> And scroll by pressing shift-pgup/down.
08:46:36  <peter1138> ` indeed
08:46:46  <peter1138> you people with silly keyboard layouts...
08:46:47  <gartral> fish-hook? i dont have fish-hook... i have `/~
08:47:17  <peter1138> altgr-shift-s (§) is not the right key!
08:50:20  <gartral> Markk (dont give me bad/personal config info!)
08:52:41  <gartral> hmm.. say in console is broken. (or i dont understand the syntax)
08:52:47  <Markk> Personal?
08:52:52  <Markk> It's the standard key.
08:53:12  <Markk> I havn't configured any keys at all.
08:53:57  <gartral> it should just be: say bla bla bla. and print "bla bla bla", right?
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10:02:16  <Forked> And_rew: ello da_ta, Godrick og de tusen andre nick. Er ikke du bannet?
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10:32:16  <peter1138> all the best freaks are here
10:32:33  <Forked> oops, wrong window :p
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13:26:13  * andythenorth is amazed at least once a year at the false premium people place on the value of ideas
13:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> the what?
13:26:57  <andythenorth> the "what I said" :P
13:27:39  <andythenorth> people over-value their own ideas and under-value their own time.
13:27:54  <andythenorth> oops...under-value the time of *other people*
13:28:18  <andythenorth> it happens in openttd suggestions....but also in the world of film, game, business, web app
13:28:46  <andythenorth> "I'd like to talk to you about my film/web app/business idea, but first can you sign an NDA so you don't steal it"
13:29:48  <andythenorth> or the tt forums version...."All I want for this idea is a credit, I won't be cross if you go ahead and implement it"
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13:29:52  <andythenorth> meh
13:29:58  * andythenorth does some real work
13:30:11  <peter1138> sleep?
13:30:34  <andythenorth> yeah, not so much, due to strange combination of baby & jQuery....and now is not the time
13:30:41  <andythenorth> due to it being middle of the day
13:30:50  <peter1138> pfff
13:30:58  * andythenorth wants to draw hovercraft and invent strange speed effects for them in nfo
13:31:12  <andythenorth> but has to do jquery and people management instead
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13:49:12  <Belugas> hello
13:57:29  <Belugas> andythenorth, in fact, you have to WORK :)
13:57:32  <Belugas> and not PLAY ;)
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15:33:59  <Belugas> hoo...  i've just implemented the concept of savegame bump in our app at work...
15:34:16  <Belugas> in our config structure that is
15:34:19  <planetmaker> hoho :-)
15:39:26  <peter1138> heh
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16:04:55  <Rubidium> Belugas: you're not using XML?
16:05:41  <Rubidium> what kind of "noob" has made the requirements for that? It totally goes against the standard of using buzzwords in specifications.
16:07:02  <Belugas> of course i do, even sending informations from database to POs screen is done in XML :)
16:07:06  <Sacro> openttd should support web 2.0 cloud computing
16:08:05  <Rubidium> it does
16:08:23  <Prof_Frink> Cloud computing is hard.
16:08:24  <Rubidium> or I think it does
16:08:39  <Rubidium> just run an openttd server on ubuntu on amazon's cloud
16:08:54  <Belugas> the hardest part of cloud computing is when it's just blue sky outside
16:08:55  <Prof_Frink> CFD with stuff changing state? That's going to need some serious grunt.
16:10:35  <Rubidium> otherwise, #openttdcoop can be considered a sort of cloud computed AI
16:12:20  <Goulp> if you consider that using X11 is kind of cloud computing, then openttd is cloudy compatible
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16:17:24  <andythenorth> don't trains move at a certain number of pixels per second?
16:17:28  * andythenorth wonders
16:17:37  * andythenorth has been in the development forum recently
16:21:39  * planetmaker objects being classified as AI
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16:41:27  <Sacro> oh my
16:45:22  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: do you object more to the A or to the I? :p
16:52:49  <peter1138> hmm, can i use a second pc as a desktop extension...
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16:56:42  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: most probably both is not true :-P
17:04:25  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: glx * r19859 /trunk/src/string_func.h: -Fix (r19853): preprocessor warning
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17:19:32  * planetmaker wonders whether I should cut down into smaller chunks the new game window patch at
17:20:52  <Eddi|zuHause> that's generally a good idea
17:21:05  <planetmaker> yeah...
17:21:38  <planetmaker> I guess  that should become a hg queue then
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17:22:15  <planetmaker> hm... do several heads and hg queues go well in the same repo?
17:23:02  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean like branches?
17:23:27  <planetmaker> well, I guess one could consider heads something like un-named branches, yes
17:23:29  <Eddi|zuHause> don't know... never got round to learning hg queues
17:23:55  <planetmaker> quite handy... for just that: stacked patches
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17:27:17  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you can do that in three simple commands, please explain...
17:27:35  <planetmaker> I just try to assess the potential to screw up, if I do both in one repo: maintain the patch queue and the different heads which implement different things of the newgame / settings rework
17:27:59  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: hg qinit enables the patch queue usage
17:28:24  <planetmaker> then with hg qnew starts a new patch
17:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: best would be a graphical frontend that can show me the different hierarchies...
17:28:45  <planetmaker> you edit it and the you commit it with hg qcommit
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17:28:53  <planetmaker> the result will be a diff file in the patch dir
17:29:07  <planetmaker> with respect to the unmodified trunk (or whatever the repo is)
17:29:14  <planetmaker> I don't use graphical front-ends
17:29:44  <Eddi|zuHause> i like graphical frontends, you can get better overview
17:29:45  <planetmaker> the idea is: you can apply or de-apply patches in a pre-defined sequence
17:30:19  <planetmaker> you can stop at any intermediate step and edit the repo. Those changes will then become part of that intermediate patch
17:30:28  <planetmaker> It might brake patches further down the queue, though
17:30:32  <planetmaker> *break
17:31:10  <planetmaker> Other than defining the patch being worked upon by walking up or down this queue, you edit the files as usual
17:31:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ... i totally don't understand this... i have 400MB free, but it fails copying a 300MB file with "not enough disk space"
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17:31:45  <glx> still the same harddrisk ?
17:31:53  <glx> -r
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17:36:45  <planetmaker> <-- Eddi|zuHause if you install TortoiseHG you should find a graphical front-end to queues
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17:39:44  <glx> tortoise on linux?
17:40:15  <planetmaker> yes, they claim it works on all three major OS
17:40:24  <planetmaker> by means of pygtk on linux and osx
17:40:59  <planetmaker> I was also surprised to read that right now :-)
17:42:34  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: yes, the same HD
17:42:52  <glx> maybe your HD has a big problem :)
17:45:27  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r19860 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt french.txt russian.txt):
17:45:27  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:27  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
17:45:27  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 9 changes by ElNounch
17:45:27  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: russian - 60 changes by Lone_Wolf, perk11
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17:46:01  <Ammler> planetmaker: it is more for gnome, not very well useable on KDE
17:46:14  <Ammler> (but it is=
17:46:26  <Eddi|zuHause> glx: but neither fsck nor smart say anything abnormal
17:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause>   9 Power_On_Hours          0x0012   097   097   000    Old_age   Always       -       27295
17:53:41  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: not enough free inodes? Space (in size or inodes) reserved for root?
17:54:22  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: no, tune2fs says 0 reserved blocks, and plenty of free inodes (HDD has mostly large files)
17:55:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: when the copy process stops with "not enough space", i can create more files with 5-12MB size each, before it stops them again
17:55:24  <Eddi|zuHause> "create" by "cat /dev/zero > testXX"
17:56:01  <Rubidium> what file system are you using?
18:02:07  <Eddi|zuHause> ext3
18:06:11  <andythenorth> evening
18:08:05  <andythenorth> trucks
18:08:06  <andythenorth>
18:08:10  <andythenorth> :D
18:09:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- that's how it looks like, after repeating the "cat" line a few times
18:09:50  <Eddi|zuHause> where "0 Byte" means the disk is actually full..
18:10:20  <Eddi|zuHause> if i delete the files, and repeat this, the numbers change slightly...
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18:38:31  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r19861 /trunk/src/video/allegro_v.cpp: -Fix (r19814): Silence a warning.
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18:42:35  <CrazyTB> hey... I'm very new to this game and I need some tips.
18:42:53  <CrazyTB> specially... What to do about trains (or any vehicle) that  keeps breaking?
18:43:20  <CrazyTB> shouldn't them automatically go to maintenence? Or that only happens if a depot is at their path?
18:43:31  <yorick> CrazyTB: turn breakdowns off :P
18:43:34  <andythenorth> 1. turn off break downs 2. check the maintenance interval is short
18:43:51  <andythenorth> 3. with PBS signals trains often can't find a depot to go to
18:45:13  <CrazyTB> PBS?
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18:46:02  <yorick> path signals
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18:49:15  <Belugas> DeathmÞle - Conniptions
18:49:16  <Belugas> yeah
18:49:17  <Belugas> yeah
18:49:20  <Belugas> yeah!!!
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18:58:25  <CrazyTB> oh, well... some other day I'll spend more time trying to understand the differences between all types of signals
18:59:45  <frosch123> CrazyTB:
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19:03:49  <Eddi|zuHause> CrazyTB: when the depot is too far away from the path, it might not be found when the train searches for it. use a "service at depot" order for that [in the train schedule, click "goto" and then ctrl+click on the depot)
19:05:06  <Eddi|zuHause> CrazyTB: also, some old trains break down no matter how often you send them to depot
19:05:32  <CrazyTB> Eddi|zuHause: Nice one about "maintain if needed" action! Didn't know about it
19:07:32  <CrazyTB> Eddi|zuHause: Is there any way to "easily" update old trains? Do I need to update all cars or just the engine?
19:07:50  <Eddi|zuHause> CrazyTB: only the engine
19:08:05  <Eddi|zuHause> CrazyTB: read up on "autoreplace"
19:08:32  <CrazyTB> I remember I read that page, but it wasn't so clear for me
19:09:10  <frosch123> s/autoreplace/autorenew/
19:09:18  <CrazyTB> It seems the tutorials are a bit... incomplete... The "Getting started" shows how to build a simple 1-track system
19:09:22  <andythenorth> dropping a set of signals in front of a depot entrance can also help with PBS pathfinding
19:09:26  <CrazyTB> but doesn't explain what to do next.
19:10:05  <CrazyTB> Also... the basic tutorials don't explain how to maintain the vehicles. (auto-maintanence, lifetime, and so on)
19:11:07  * andythenorth needs to get a newgrf to v1 so work can be started on BANDIT :P
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19:16:00  <CrazyTB> Question:  what does mean those red/yellow/green/gray circles at the vehicle list?
19:16:18  <frosch123> profit last year
19:16:32  <glx> profit negative/low/good/too young
19:18:22  <CrazyTB> weird... Because it seems that inside the depot and at the bottom of the vehicle screen they mean "Moving" (as opposed to stopped)
19:18:38  <andythenorth> if you don't have vehicles losing're not using enough transfer systems :P
19:19:04  <CrazyTB> Probably that circle should be replaced by something else... Maybe a dollar/pound/money symbol.
19:19:39  <glx> there are flags in depots
19:19:50  * frosch123 highlights opengfx guys planetmaker and Ammler as he is too lazy to open a ticket
19:20:06  <glx> or there should be flags ;)
19:21:23  <CrazyTB> or just... Arrows, like those shown in stocks
19:21:25  <frosch123> maybe some coins for the profit symbol
19:21:27  <CrazyTB> up green arrow = profit
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19:21:39  <CrazyTB> down red arrow = losing money
19:21:54  <glx> anyway blame opengfx guys :)
19:22:08  <glx> because in original the symbols are not the same
19:23:16  <andythenorth> planetmaker....fancy helping move FIRS along a bit....I'm kind of stuck for motivation working alone :o
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19:28:54  <glx> I can kick you if that can increase your motivation ;)
19:31:13  <Belugas> let's go andythenorth, let's go!
19:31:15  <Belugas> let's go andythenorth, let's go!
19:36:40  <Ammler> frosch123: ?
19:36:57  <frosch123> read four lines above :)
19:37:02  <CrazyTB> Ammler: I'm opening a ticket about that
19:37:54  <Ammler> CrazyTB: which version?
19:38:09  <Ammler> because I think, stop/moving is already replaced...
19:38:53  <CrazyTB> 1.0.1, I mean, 0.2.4
19:39:21  <CrazyTB> Anyway,
19:40:59  <Ammler> CrazyTB: no screens :-(
19:41:15  <CrazyTB> Do you want me to add screenshots?
19:41:56  <Ammler> would be nice
19:41:57  <glx> CrazyTB: 0.2.4 seems ok to me
19:42:44  <glx> ha no it uses a green circle when running
19:42:55  <glx> (red cross when stopped)
19:43:29  <glx> older version used red/green circles
19:44:15  <CrazyTB> making a screenshot...
19:46:35  <CrazyTB> screenshot added
19:47:54  <CrazyTB> Another question... That vehicle list dialog allows us to sort vehicles by lots of criteria...
19:48:17  <CrazyTB> But it doesn't show the value of each criterion. Thus, we can sort by age, but we can't SEE the age itself.
19:48:40  <glx> you can in vehicle details window
19:48:43  <frosch123> the vehicle number turns red for old vehicles
19:48:51  <frosch123> *too old
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19:49:07  <glx> and blue in depot ;)
19:49:47  <Eddi|zuHause> those are different icons
19:50:20  <glx> Eddi|zuHause: true, but they look the same
19:50:38  <Eddi|zuHause> that's opengfx's fault
19:51:49  <Eddi|zuHause> they originally had red/green circles for stopped/running, but they changed that because of certain colourblind people requesting it ;)
19:52:16  <CrazyTB> glx, frosch123: yes, we can see the age at the vehicle detail window. But that means we need to click on each vehicle, and then click on that paper icon at that new window.
19:53:06  <CrazyTB> We can't see an overall view of all vehicles age, capacity, speed, value, ...
19:53:23  <Eddi|zuHause> CrazyTB: that might be a valid feature request. maybe show the sorting criterium at the place where group/vehicle name or vehicle schedule is shown
19:53:28  <CrazyTB> We need to open each one individually, and it quickly becomes very messy
19:53:28  * frosch123 never needed such a list
19:54:12  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: might be important for rapidly changing values, like timetable delay
19:54:18  <frosch123> i sort by age, when i want to deal with the red ones, resp. want to check the age of the oldest one.
19:54:32  <frosch123> i sort by capacity, if i want to attach some wagons to the shortest train of a group
19:55:09  <frosch123> i cannot remember any other important sorting
19:55:49  <CrazyTB> Eddi|zuHause: about the icons... Nice to see the moving/stop being changed. Now we need the profit icons changed too. ;)
19:56:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i needed sorting for timetable delay to adjust out-of-order vehicles which can't overtake
19:56:23  <glx> profit icons look like original version CrazyTB
19:57:22  <CrazyTB> glx: unfortunately... they are not intuitive... :-\  Maybe money and/or arrows could be better.
19:57:24  <glx> but indeed arrows could be nice for color blind people
19:57:28  <Eddi|zuHause> in a 3000 ticks timetable, having vehicles with 6000 ticks delay is... troublesome
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19:57:42  <Rubidium> there are only very few that want a big spreadsheet of information in each window. Doing that makes it more unplayable for the rest. Also implementing such spreadsheet stuff is a lot of work for the very few that want it, but in reality not really use it
19:58:29  <Eddi|zuHause> i need turning loops for trams which allow overtaking :(
19:58:50  <frosch123> correction: i use sorting by "remaining life time", "length", "model" and "profit last year". the rest is useless
19:59:08  * frosch123 agrees with rubidium
19:59:18  <andythenorth> me too
19:59:21  <frosch123> sorting is useful, but the actual values do not matter
19:59:39  <andythenorth> time could be better spent on eye candy :P
20:00:00  <frosch123> though argueable three of the four criterions i use are visible in the list :p
20:00:02  <andythenorth> or providing 'wind' on the map
20:00:12  <frosch123> *criteria
20:00:26  <frosch123> (that is the second time today i mispell that word :s)
20:00:34  <frosch123> "mispell" :p
20:00:41  <andythenorth> 1 byte for wind could give 4 strengths in each of 4 directions
20:01:03  * andythenorth bad maths
20:01:14  <andythenorth> shocking in fact
20:01:34  <andythenorth> what's less than a byte?
20:01:39  <Wasila> a bit
20:01:42  <frosch123> a nibble
20:01:43  <yorick> a nibble
20:01:48  <yorick> a triplet
20:01:48  <Wasila> oh, lol
20:02:14  <andythenorth> one nibble could give 4 wind strengths in each of 4 directions
20:02:20  <frosch123> however, what do you mean with wind of strength 3 from all four directions?
20:02:46  <frosch123> isn't it rather 3 bits for the 8 directions in game, and 5 bits for the strength
20:03:19  * andythenorth thinks in hex for a minute
20:03:44  * andythenorth is sure this could also be done with a bit mask somehow
20:03:48  <Ammler> CrazyTB: thanks, any idea how to change it?
20:03:54  * andythenorth is no good at thinking in hex
20:04:04  * andythenorth defers to frosch123
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20:04:30  <Ammler> original set had flags
20:04:34  <andythenorth> anyway we could get a lot of information about wind vector (speed & direction) into a small space
20:04:38  <frosch123> Ammler: 3 + 1 red coins, 3 + 1 green coins, 4+2 green coins, 3+2 grey coins
20:04:54  <frosch123> imo, start/stop are fine, but the profit is stupid
20:05:38  <frosch123> s/green/yellow/
20:05:42  * andythenorth ponders
20:06:12  <andythenorth> wind vector was first mentioned for ships....but the FIRS wind turbine / wind mill animation could use it :)
20:06:16  *** Fuco [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:06:34  <andythenorth> should wind vector be same across whole map, or localised?
20:06:38  <frosch123> hmm, or s/yellow/silver/, s/green/goldish/
20:07:04  <frosch123> andythenorth: at how many places do you look at the map at once?
20:07:20  <Rubidium> what for the "not enough information yet" (currently gray) case?
20:07:32  * andythenorth was thinking of generally prevailing winds in a it would matter for shipping
20:07:45  <andythenorth> maybe some places sailing ships do well and some places they suck
20:07:46  <frosch123> gray would be darker than silver
20:08:03  <andythenorth> or player has to follow 'trade winds' with circular routes :)
20:08:22  <frosch123> oh, you mean wind zones like tropic zones?
20:08:25  <andythenorth> could be
20:08:58  <frosch123> then you need a way to visualise them :p
20:09:13  <frosch123> (well, and a way to store them)
20:09:32  <Rubidium> maybe, but... silver looks like gray and gold looks like yellow which might cause trouble after people upgrade
20:09:32  <andythenorth> it seems pointless to make the wind change a lot.  (A) it will be all out of sync with day length and players will complain about it for whatever reason and (B) if changes were frequent and random, they will average and have no game effect
20:09:42  <andythenorth> B is more important :)
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20:10:05  <Nite_Owl> Hello all
20:10:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: store them in the map, it would need to be on a per-tile basis.....?
20:10:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: i thought it would be just eyecandy
20:10:55  <andythenorth> would have a gameplay effect for ships.
20:11:00  * Rubidium still wonders what the point is of adding 4 MiB random data to 2kx2k maps just to make some windmills face a particular direction
20:11:10  <andythenorth> also, if desired, planes, zeppelins...and hot air balloons :P
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20:12:02  * andythenorth ponders faking wind in vehicle movement code
20:12:07  <Rubidium> and having gameplay effect on ships would mean that you'd need to rewrite the pathfinder to take the winds into account. That makes making a better pathfinder for ships even more difficult
20:12:12  <frosch123> hot air balloons? sounds like one-way travel :p
20:12:32  * andythenorth looks if vehicle xy co-ord is available
20:12:35  <Rubidium> oh, that reminds me... different directions at different heights
20:12:53  <andythenorth> yup, I knew someone would think of that.....ignore it :P
20:13:04  <andythenorth> ! jet stream
20:13:33  <frosch123> what is the problem with that? there are 16 height levels, and planes flying slightly higher. so say 20 levels. just 20 extra bytes per tile :p
20:13:44  * andythenorth peeks into the exciting world of 80+ variables
20:13:44  <CrazyTB> back...
20:14:06  <frosch123> as i read that would be still less than simutrans uses
20:14:15  <andythenorth> also....the smoke would need to go the right way....but that doesn't help persuade you that this idea is brilliant :P
20:14:23  <CrazyTB> andythenorth, frosch123: about the wind... We can use half-byte for X and half-byte for Y. Then, each nibble could contain a signed 4-bit number
20:14:42  <CrazyTB> from -2^3 to 2^3 - 1
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20:15:01  <andythenorth> oooh
20:15:14  <andythenorth> 80+ structure appears to make vehicle x,y and z available :P
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20:15:44  <frosch123> andythenorth: be careful with them. maybe they are not available for maps other than 256x256
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20:15:49  <andythenorth> poop
20:16:09  <frosch123> though for vehicles is everything different
20:16:12  <andythenorth> RVs have direction of travel as a var, ships appear not to
20:16:18  <frosch123> @calc 2048*16
20:16:18  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 32768
20:16:25  <frosch123> that also fits in 16 bits
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20:17:24  * andythenorth ponders 'random' wind in vehicle's nfo....but thinks it might be irritating
20:17:28  <CrazyTB> Ammler: About the icons... The "not enought data" could be just a question mark, or maybe a clock/hourglass
20:17:37  <frosch123> andythenorth: var 9f for all vehicle types
20:17:45  <andythenorth> also random wind would change too much, unless I can hack animation to store state somehow
20:17:57  <andythenorth> ooh
20:18:38  <CrazyTB> Ammler: I like the idea of multiple coins for more profitable vehicles, and probably all coins should be gold anyway. (unless the negative ones, that should be red, or show a red minus sign)
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20:18:54  * andythenorth can't see the 'vehicle fakes wind' method being much other than a lot of nfo for a not-very-good-effect :|
20:19:09  <CrazyTB> Ammler: and the "not enough data" could be a question mark on top of a coin.
20:20:44  <CrazyTB> Maybe the "very profitable" could have gold coins on top of green money bill
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20:21:25  <Ammler> CrazyTB: do you have any chance to check how it works with original ttd set?
20:21:59  <CrazyTB> Ammler: nope... I don't have the original one.
20:22:15  <frosch123> andythenorth: devide the map into north and south, and assume it is a sphere. then apply windzones:
20:22:20  <CrazyTB> I played the original TT demo many years ago, and never played it again
20:22:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm trying to figure something like that should be plausible in nfo
20:23:10  <frosch123> none - east - west - none - west - east - none
20:23:15  <andythenorth> but it's a bit predictable....maybe randomise the zones on a per-game basis somehow....?
20:23:18  <andythenorth> hmmm
20:23:29  <CrazyTB> andythenorth, frosch123: maybe divide the map into zones... And "store" the pressure of such zones
20:23:39  <CrazyTB> wind flows from high-pressure to low-pressure
20:23:41  <frosch123> maybe also do spring, summer, autumn, winter
20:23:48  <andythenorth> and rain :P
20:24:00  <andythenorth> rain would be a major addition to gameplay
20:24:20  * andythenorth is aware that it's not always clear when he's joking
20:24:22  <CrazyTB> andythenorth: add too much rain and it floods the city...
20:24:46  <frosch123> CrazyTB: as rb already said. map storage is a holy cow in ottd. there is no way to store something as unimportant as wind on a per tile basis
20:24:46  <CrazyTB> and the transportation becomes a complete chaos. (we lived this in real life, a few months ago)
20:25:27  <CrazyTB> frosch123: an entire map would have just a few zones, not too many.
20:25:46  <Nite_Owl> a per tile ash cloud would be going a bit too far
20:26:06  <CrazyTB> Another idea... Maybe you might want to look how SecondLife implemented the clouds/weather.
20:26:29  <frosch123> hmm, firs lacks a vulcano
20:26:59  <Ammler> CrazyTB: I think, to confuse opengfx and openttd features....
20:27:04  <Ammler> you*
20:27:24  <Ammler> opengfx is mainly just graphics replacement
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20:27:39  <Nite_Owl> just wait a bit - someone will eventually suggest a volcano as a new disaster
20:27:48  <CrazyTB> Ammler: huh... Why? I'm talking in parallel with you about opengfx, and with andythenorth and frosch123 about wind.
20:28:06  * frosch123 very much dislikes every game with day/night cycles, rain and other stuff which hides the important view on the map
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20:29:17  <Belugas> [16:27] <Nite_Owl> just wait a bit - someone will eventually suggest a volcano as a new disaster  <--  Meush did it, a few years ago. it was pretty cool, in fact...
20:29:54  <Nite_Owl> but did it include an ash cloud that grounds all air travel ??
20:30:16  <frosch123> ottd already features a supernova disaster. just click "new game" in the menu
20:30:17  <Belugas> nope.  it would have not been too TTD
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20:30:54  <andythenorth> I was thinking about a volcano disaster today
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20:33:40  <frosch123> <- found it
20:33:43  <andythenorth> frosch123: I was just looking in landscape_grid.html....I had a feeling there would be no way to put wind vector into tiles :)
20:33:49  <Yexo> andythenorth: isn't the major problem with wind the number of sprites you would need for each ship?
20:34:10  <andythenorth> Yexo: that is a good point.  But I might decide not to care too much about accurate sprites
20:34:21  <andythenorth> it would affect the speed only
20:34:42  <andythenorth> it can go in that class of problems labelled "it's only a game" :)
20:35:04  <Yexo> can a newgrf actually determine the speed that often?
20:35:16  <andythenorth> mine do at the moment
20:35:18  <Yexo> isn't the max speed callback only called when buying/leaving depot/refit etc.
20:35:29  <andythenorth> hmmm that sounds more plausible
20:35:30  <andythenorth> yes
20:35:32  <frosch123> Yexo: interestingly it is different for ships
20:35:49  <andythenorth> whatever I coded for ships seems to just work :P
20:35:52  <frosch123> though that difference might not be intentional :p
20:36:21  <frosch123> or in other words, the log raft only works as ship :p
20:36:21  <andythenorth> what about aeroplanes?  pikka does stuff with speed during takeoff / landing
20:37:26  <andythenorth> frosch123: how about a halfway suggestion.....implementing wind by region in nfo for vehicle is a bit baroque.  What about a var that performs a calculation based on vehicle's current map location and provides a vector result to the newgrf?
20:37:38  <andythenorth> maybe using map random seed for some sort of variation
20:37:44  <CrazyTB> just a sidenote: in real life, planes always (or most times) take off and land against the direction of the wind.
20:38:12  <frosch123> andythenorth: actually i would prefer the baroque version :p
20:38:31  <andythenorth> well it means I have to write it at least :|
20:38:42  <andythenorth> so I suppose it suits everybody else better :P
20:39:11  <frosch123> CrazyTB: rockets take of in earth rotating direction
20:39:17  <andythenorth> it's going to be horrible
20:39:25  <frosch123> :p
20:39:29  <Yexo> andythenorth: if you help define which vars to use / how to calculate wind speed/direction I'll write the nfo
20:39:43  <andythenorth> I'll need branching varacts for map size and all kinds of stuff.....and we don't get proper integer maths
20:40:12  <andythenorth> or do I mean floating point maths?
20:40:36  <andythenorth> anyway FIRS has to do some bonkers stuff to deal with maths.  Someone else had to write  pseudo code so I could understand it
20:40:39  <frosch123> i would guess you can compute most of that once on initialisation
20:40:57  <andythenorth> where can I store it though?
20:41:03  <frosch123> grf parameters
20:41:16  <andythenorth> there's no varact to write them
20:41:17  <frosch123> action D
20:41:23  <andythenorth> ah
20:42:25  <frosch123> store x and y size of map in some parameters, later shift/divide the vehicle position by those values, and you get the position in a nomalised scale independent of map size
20:43:27  <andythenorth> then standard varact 2 with ranges for different regions?
20:43:59  <frosch123> then write a varaction2 chain which computes the windstrength and call that as var 7e procedure call for every vehicle while scaling the result with the vehicle specific speed
20:44:21  * andythenorth wonders "why do I talk myself into trying these things"
20:44:32  * andythenorth saves this irc transcript for future reference
20:44:33  <Nite_Owl> Nice ideas and all but does this not fit the very definition of "Too much work for too little gain" ??  Or have I come in on the middle of an intellectual exercise ??
20:45:14  <Yexo> is the map size actually available to newgrfs?
20:45:21  <frosch123> Nite_Owl: put the "too much work" in relation to drawing hundreds of sailing ships with different sprites for wind directions
20:45:33  <andythenorth> Nite_Owl: it's probably one of those two outcomes....time will tell :P
20:45:42  <frosch123> Yexo: yes, there is an action 7/9/d variable
20:45:54  <andythenorth> writing code is rarely as time consuming as drawing pixels.  and it scales much better :)
20:46:04  <frosch123> hmm, no, it is a action d "patch variable"
20:46:05  <andythenorth> if I was better at writing code it would be even faster
20:49:09  <andythenorth> Nite_Owl: it's probably an intellectual exercise.  Something like this:
20:49:52  <Yexo> hmm, a newgrf using an action B for only one specific language could cause a desync because it's disabled at some clients but not at others
20:50:03  <Yexo> but then such a newgrf is stupid anyway
20:50:10  <Yexo> probably not worth fixing that
20:50:12  * andythenorth plays dope wars, which is probably not a metagame
20:50:18  <Eddi|zuHause> <Yexo> is the map size actually available to newgrfs? <-- yes
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20:50:55  <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: I just discovered
20:51:24  <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, that's the one
20:53:33  * andythenorth "Retired a millionaire"
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21:03:20  * Belugas goes home
21:03:24  <Belugas> night all
21:03:27  <andythenorth> bye
21:03:33  *** lugo [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:03:37  * andythenorth codes some refits
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21:03:43  <andythenorth> how much do mail bags weigh?
21:03:50  *** Adambean [] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
21:04:28  <frosch123> <- 1/4 ton
21:04:53  <frosch123> @calc 1000/16
21:04:53  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 62.5
21:05:02  <andythenorth> 11t = 44 mail bags
21:05:05  <frosch123> weird passengers
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21:05:23  <frosch123> the average ttd passenger with luggage only weights 62 kg
21:05:57  <Xaroth> they are full of hot air
21:06:28  <andythenorth> default trucks seem to think 1 mail bag occupies approx same space as 1t coal
21:06:50  <frosch123> default capacity is not based on the weight property
21:07:14  <frosch123> <- search for capacity multipliers
21:07:46  <andythenorth> so a hovercraft that can refit to 50 PAX or 11t freight should carry how much mail?? :P
21:07:49  <frosch123> it is based on cargoslot, which is quite stupid :p
21:08:16  <andythenorth> @calc 50*62.5
21:08:16  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 3125
21:08:16  <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: 47 letters and 3 postcards.
21:08:25  <andythenorth> I shall make that the capacity then
21:08:33  <andythenorth> I dunno if it will make much money though
21:09:16  <andythenorth> 22 mail bags seems like a good number picked on no particular basis
21:10:28  <andythenorth> or 44
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21:21:07  <frosch123> night
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21:38:34  <planetmaker> :-( your carma is gone from the stable server, Rubidium
21:38:39  <planetmaker> I turned on again desync debug
21:40:03  <__ln__> ain't that written 'karma' even in engklish
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21:57:14  <andythenorth> Ammler planetmaker hg troubles
21:57:21  <andythenorth> remote: abort: No usable temporary directory found in ['/tmp', '/var/tmp', '/usr/tmp', '/home/ottdc']
21:57:29  <CrazyTB> huh... the redmine web server is down too
21:57:49  <planetmaker> uh @ andy?
21:58:01  <andythenorth> that was the result of hg push
21:58:10  <andythenorth> devzone is down
21:58:13  <andythenorth> also
21:58:20  <andythenorth> or same issue I guess :)
21:58:41  <planetmaker> hm... yes, thanks, andythenorth
21:58:52  <planetmaker> no fix yet
21:59:20  <andythenorth> ho ho
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21:59:27  * andythenorth ponders some sort of backup
21:59:30  <planetmaker> disk full
21:59:30  <andythenorth> locally I mean
21:59:57  * andythenorth starts OS X Time Machine even though it's bollocks
22:00:45  <CrazyTB> planetmaker: probably that's not the case, but a few weeks ago I had a server that had "disk full" while still had plenty of free space.
22:01:01  <CrazyTB> The reason: the filesystem ran out of inodes. (checked that with df -i )
22:01:05  <planetmaker> CrazyTB: it really seems to be the case
22:01:12  <planetmaker> it's only a vserver and we use our quota
22:01:53  * andythenorth wonders about buying more...
22:02:11  * CrazyTB wonders about the size of /var/log
22:02:19  <planetmaker> the only reasonable upgrade would be a root server
22:02:27  <andythenorth> we have a web server that fills /var/log often
22:02:30  <andythenorth> then dies
22:02:41  * andythenorth ponders bed
22:02:55  <andythenorth> good night
22:03:01  <planetmaker> night andythenorth
22:03:35  <Nite_Owl> later andythenorth
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22:21:59  <Terkhen> good night
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22:28:20  <caribou|> hello
22:28:31  <caribou|> i'm having problem joining a dedicated server :/
22:28:58  <caribou|> it says that the server is "offline" in the game but i can connect to the server through telnet
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22:31:25  <Yexo> IIRC openttd uses udp packets to determine if a esrver is online
22:31:31  <Yexo> maybe tcp is allowed by udp is blocked?
22:32:41  <caribou|> i've forwarded the both protocols :/
22:34:52  <Jolteon> k
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22:35:05  <caribou|> ok that's working i guess the refresh was a bit slow or buggy :/
22:35:06  <Jolteon> sure it's the right port(s)?
22:35:40  <caribou|> btw i've jsut started playing this awesome game with a frien in coop that's why i thought about the dedicated server
22:36:07  <caribou|> and i've seen this autopilot script, what is this about ? I've read about auto pause and stuff like that !?
22:36:27  <caribou|> the main thing we want is just that when we are not on the server the game is paused but that's a vanilla thing isn't it ?
22:36:59  <Yexo> yes, but autopilot provided that function already when openttd didn't support it
22:37:11  <caribou|> oh understood, thank you !
22:37:35  <caribou|> does it autosave ?
22:37:47  <Yexo> openttd has an autosave feature
22:37:57  <caribou|> good :)
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22:38:34  <Yexo> you might need to enable it in the settings,  idon't know what the default is
22:38:44  <fjb> Moin
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22:39:32  <caribou|> ok
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22:47:07  <PeterT> caribou|: where did you see that script?
22:47:11  <PeterT> my servers use it :-)
22:47:21  <caribou|> in the forums :D
22:47:24  <PeterT> oh
22:47:24  <caribou|> what for then ?
22:47:25  <PeterT>
22:47:36  <PeterT> rather
22:48:59  <caribou|> thanks :)
22:50:18  <PeterT> if you want to see them in action join #sn
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