Log for #openttd on 14th August 2010:
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01:29:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Great News Everybody.
01:29:30  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently His Holyness suggested newgrf-fields already years ago ;)
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05:05:02  <korsak> hi, i have a problem: i'd like to join another company in game saved on disk. Is it posible?
05:06:34  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, open the cheat window and switch company
05:07:33  <Eddi|zuHause> note that other players are not taken over by the AI
05:07:44  <Eddi|zuHause> they are just dead
05:13:34  <korsak> i still don't understand how to switch company. i typed list_cmds and i didn't find such command
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05:24:06  <korsak> please tell me more how to switch company
05:25:00  <ccfreak2k> Eddi|zuHause, he saw right through your lies!
05:25:56  <Eddi|zuHause> i said cheat window, not console window
05:34:49  <korsak> in network game i open cheat window pressing Enter. In saved game it doesn't work :-(
05:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> that'S chat, not cheat
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05:49:06  <andythenorth> morning
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06:04:44  <Terkhen> good morning
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06:13:06  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
06:14:46  <andythenorth> @seen frosch123
06:14:47  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: frosch123 was last seen in #openttd 8 hours, 24 minutes, and 53 seconds ago: <frosch123> you can also put "bla" there
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06:28:29  <marksp> hi
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06:29:07  <Terkhen> that was fast
06:29:55  <frosch123> :p
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06:34:19  <andythenorth> quak
06:34:26  <frosch123> quak :)
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06:43:29  * andythenorth states down a long varaction 2 chain
06:43:32  <andythenorth> stares /s
06:45:03  <Terkhen> I have tried that with my code too, but it does not get any easier
06:47:53  <Eddi|zuHause> now imagine it was somebody else's code :)
06:52:07  * andythenorth is worried that the FIRS forest layout code is way too complex
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07:36:03  <andythenorth> how about this for forest in desert :P
07:37:30  <andythenorth> hmm
07:37:36  <andythenorth> found a better dead tree
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07:43:06  <planetmaker> andythenorth: but... that's not an industry, except for grave diggers or so
07:43:13  <planetmaker> maybe vultures
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07:43:47  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I was fooling a little bit :)
07:43:56  <planetmaker> :-)
07:43:58  <andythenorth> this one is ok though:
07:44:10  <andythenorth> and I'll restrict building so if north tile is on desert, no build
07:44:16  <planetmaker> andythenorth: it might make sense as goody: let players build them there. But then decay and close ;-)
07:44:23  <planetmaker> then those sprites might come in handy ;-)
07:44:24  <andythenorth> maybe
07:44:32  <planetmaker> or e.g. if it announces imminent closure
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07:45:51  <andythenorth> alternative is cacti :)
07:46:39  <andythenorth>
07:46:40  <planetmaker> :-)
07:46:49  <andythenorth> or the brown palm tree
07:46:56  <andythenorth> I haven't checked this in open gfx at all :P
07:47:20  <andythenorth> I kind of like the cacti
07:47:27  <planetmaker> yeah
07:48:47  <andythenorth> looks ok in opengfx
07:55:57  <planetmaker> :-) 60% of the users of flyspray will thank you ;-)
07:56:02  <planetmaker>
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07:59:37  <andythenorth> frosch123: so to do transitional snowline?
08:00:02  <planetmaker> hehe
08:00:04  <andythenorth> I need to do subtract or max or something
08:00:24  <planetmaker> I think you need to get the difference to the snowline height
08:00:36  <andythenorth> yup
08:00:37  <planetmaker> which can be +/- 2
08:00:51  <andythenorth> assuming I know the tile already has snow on it?
08:02:29  <frosch123> has_snow = (GetTileMaxZ(tile) > GetSnowLine()); <- the snowflag just depends on the snowlineheight and and the maximum tile height
08:03:01  <andythenorth> hmm
08:03:20  <andythenorth> so the transitional tiles are calculated upwards, with snowline as 0?
08:03:48  <andythenorth> so if I'm +3 height above snowline, it's full snow?
08:03:48  <frosch123> GetSnowLine is the height between 1/3 and 2/3 density
08:04:09  <andythenorth> so +2 is full snow?
08:04:33  <frosch123> well, 2/3 is for > GetSnowLine, 1/3 for ==
08:04:48  <andythenorth> hmm
08:04:50  <andythenorth> confused :P
08:05:02  <andythenorth> I think I'll just start coding it :)
08:05:22  <andythenorth> so if I do cur tile height - snowline height, I don't have to worry about signed bytes?
08:05:40  <andythenorth> assuming I already checked I'm on a snow tile
08:07:18  <frosch123> if you check the snowyness flag, you miss two snow densities
08:07:27  <frosch123> 0/3 and 1/3
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08:15:40  <andythenorth> frosch123: so I'm better checking snowline height than terrain type
08:15:57  * andythenorth ponders using min to deal with signing problem
08:16:00  <frosch123> if you do densities, you need to ignore the flag
08:17:11  <andythenorth> so max((current tile height - snowline height), 0)
08:17:28  <andythenorth> and then check results 0 = no snow, or 1/3 snow
08:17:32  <andythenorth> 1 = some snow
08:17:35  <andythenorth> 2 = more snow etc
08:18:32  <andythenorth> do I get any prizes if this works? :P
08:20:30  <andythenorth> can I get tile height by checking var 60 as a byte, shift 2?
08:20:56  <frosch123> i guess you need some + 2 in there
08:21:11  * andythenorth hates var 60
08:25:32  <andythenorth> frosch123: var 60 "height is always a multiple of 8"
08:25:47  <andythenorth> so height 1 returns result 8?
08:26:24  <Rubidium> yeah
08:26:42  <andythenorth> thanks
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08:30:19  <planetmaker> frosch123: what in the case of varying snowline height. Is the global var constantly changed?
08:30:36  <andythenorth> I was wondering that
08:30:55  <andythenorth> is snowline height expressed as multiple of 8?
08:30:56  <planetmaker> I seem to remember that the answer is 'no', but I'm not sure
08:31:05  <planetmaker> yes, internally
08:33:04  <frosch123> it is changed
08:34:55  <andythenorth> frosch123: does this get me tile height? 	81 60 00 24 FF // get current tile height (lowest corner)
08:35:01  <andythenorth> I can't figure out the shift
08:35:09  <Rubidium> 3
08:35:45  <andythenorth> I had that previously, but I'm getting very strange results when I do next part of advanced varact2
08:42:29  <andythenorth> so my code
08:42:43  <andythenorth> I get all snow everywhere if I check range 1-255
08:42:50  <andythenorth> and no snow if I check range 2-255
08:42:58  <andythenorth> so my varact 2 is returning 1
08:43:03  <andythenorth> I guess
08:44:02  <andythenorth> needs some frosch123 magic :P (sorry)
08:46:10  <planetmaker> [10:33]	<frosch123>	it is changed <-- ah, good :-)
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08:46:57  <andythenorth> not good for trying to control farm building below snowline though :P
08:47:47  <planetmaker> andythenorth: why do you throw away negative values?
08:48:07  <andythenorth> I don't have to.  I could cap the range check at 127
08:48:08  <VVG> hello
08:48:13  <andythenorth> it just seems messier
08:48:22  <VVG> How long is one day in ticks?
08:48:30  <planetmaker> but a difference which can get negative... not sure it makes sense
08:48:35  <planetmaker> VVG: 74 ticks
08:48:35  <andythenorth> not this question again :/
08:48:42  <VVG> thanks
08:48:59  <andythenorth> :)
08:49:10  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you might be right
08:49:21  <andythenorth> I should probably add rather than max
08:49:33  <planetmaker> yeah, that makes more sense IMHO
08:49:42  <planetmaker> but it depends what you want
08:49:49  <planetmaker> just > snowline?
08:49:51  <andythenorth> that means I need to check some negative ranges, it's going to be weird code to read
08:49:54  <planetmaker> then it's fine
08:50:02  <andythenorth> I have to deal with below snowline as well
08:50:11  <VVG> Is there some hotkey to switch the timetable display between ticks and days?
08:50:40  <planetmaker> VVG: did you check hotkeys.cfg?
08:51:01  <VVG> i didn't
08:51:17  <planetmaker> look there. If it has it: yes. Otherwise 'no' ;-)
08:52:07  <VVG> doesn't look like there is an entry for that :(
08:52:27  <andythenorth> hmm
08:52:38  <andythenorth> removing max() makes no difference to my snowline check
08:52:44  <andythenorth> I still get 1 as the result
08:53:25  <andythenorth> hmm
08:53:28  <andythenorth> this is broken somehow
08:53:50  <andythenorth> If I +2 to the result, and then check range 2-127 for building snow, I don't get snow
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08:53:52  <andythenorth> that's wrong
08:54:07  <andythenorth> means the result of tile height-snowline height must be wrong
08:54:25  <andythenorth> snowline height not expressed in multiple of 8?
08:54:44  <andythenorth> or I did something stupid
08:56:29  <trebuchet> Is there a way to sustain yourself forever with just two towns and a bus/truck route
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09:04:39  * andythenorth is totally defeated by snowline
09:04:40  <andythenorth> :(
09:04:57  <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you fancy helping solve this?  It's a worthwhile problem
09:05:02  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20487 /trunk/src/newgrf_commons.cpp: -Fix: typo in comments
09:07:49  <andythenorth> 81 60 00 03 FF can't possibly be getting the tile height
09:07:55  <andythenorth> or the tile height code is broken :P
09:08:03  <frosch123> 81 60 00 23 FF //get current tile height (lowest corner) <- should be 30, not 23
09:08:22  <frosch123> you need to shift 16 bits, not 3
09:09:34  <frosch123> and you should use word-size computations
09:09:52  <frosch123> snowline may be > 0x80
09:10:01  <frosch123> so you overflow in 8bit maths
09:10:20  <andythenorth> I'll adjust that now
09:10:58  <andythenorth> that's starting to make sense now :)
09:12:14  <andythenorth> If I check it as word, do I still shift 16 bits?
09:13:31  <frosch123> sure, and you still mask with FF
09:13:55  <andythenorth> FF or FFFF?
09:14:08  <frosch123> FF
09:14:20  <andythenorth> that's good.  FFFF was failing :P
09:15:04  <andythenorth> now we're cooking :)
09:15:20  <andythenorth> now I have to restore my snowline check code
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09:19:39  <Wolf01> hello
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09:28:16  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r20488 /trunk/projects/determineversion.vbs: -Fix [FS#4029]: Version detection for MSVC using mercurial failed (Hirundo).
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09:33:05  <andythenorth> hmm
09:33:12  <andythenorth> no partial snow sprites for trees :P
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09:37:18  <planetmaker> hehe
09:37:32  <planetmaker> not yet maybe? ;-)
09:40:04  <guru3>
09:41:01  <planetmaker> ?
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09:41:14  <guru3> i ported a landscape generator i wrote to the ds
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09:41:36  <VVG> Is it possible to set a train to stop at some station but not load or unload anything? i've set setup a side platforms where trains can waste some time, but i don't want it to actually serviced
09:42:11  <Alberth> no loading and no unloading?
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09:42:21  <TrueBrain> You have just won 3,284.00(Six Hundred and Seventy-three Thousand, Two Hundred and Eighty-four US Dollars) in the FIFA Lottery Promotions !
09:42:23  * TrueBrain parties!
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09:42:44  <andythenorth> frosch123 planetmaker: think I might have the snowline forest working
09:42:45  <Alberth> we get a server for free?
09:42:53  <andythenorth> I've committed
09:43:01  <TrueBrain> "A. You are assured of the highest standards of confidentiality and press anonymity until the end of claims so please be discreet to avoid identity security risks."
09:43:23  <VVG> Alberth: yes
09:43:46  <SpComb> a pithy sum
09:43:58  <guru3> well, that only took 8 hours
09:44:07  <Alberth> VVG: you can also make some waiting space just before a station
09:44:11  <planetmaker> andythenorth: let's see :-)
09:44:26  <andythenorth> I haven't tested with a varying snowline
09:44:34  <planetmaker> I shall :-)
09:45:27  <andythenorth> I'm not sure why it works.
09:45:30  <andythenorth> it shouldn't
09:45:45  <andythenorth> or at least, not according to my understanding.   The varact2 maths is wrong
09:45:50  <andythenorth> but it appears to wrok
09:45:51  <andythenorth> work /s
09:46:13  <avdg> try another fail then :p
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09:46:47  <VVG> Alberth: i don't think that will help
09:46:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20489 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_marine.cpp: -Fix [FS#4031]: [NoAI] checking whether water tiles are connected failed in some cases
09:47:01  <VVG> I'm trying a timetabled route and i need some space where trains can waste time to keep timetables in sync between different vehicles. I tried depot first, but i can't setup a time train should spend in depot.
09:47:55  <planetmaker> hm... no forest in arctic, andythenorth ? Or am I doing something wrong... I can't build one.
09:47:58  <Alberth> VVG: it does sound a bit weird, usually you try to deliver your cargoes as fast as possible
09:48:25  <andythenorth> planetmaker: maybe I forgot to commit a file
09:48:33  <planetmaker> Alberth: for maximum network through-put a timetable makes perfect sense :-)
09:48:33  <andythenorth> any build errors?
09:48:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: hg st shows nothing missing for me locally
09:49:02  <VVG> I setup orders to unload at normal station, no loading, hide to a side station, wait, go back to normal station, load, proceed to next normal station. There trains does same routine.
09:49:05  <planetmaker> no new ones. the 'usual' four which were there yesterday, too: Error on sprite 1424.
09:49:05  <Alberth> planetmaker: yes, but waiting at some additional station without transfering cargo?
09:49:06  <planetmaker> Error on sprite 1746.
09:49:08  <planetmaker> Error on sprite 1980.
09:49:09  <Rubidium> Alberth: but by doing so you can deliver *more* cargo (pax) on time
09:49:09  <planetmaker> Error on sprite 3423.
09:49:13  <andythenorth> that's known
09:49:25  <andythenorth> there are 4 known errors
09:49:30  <planetmaker> yep.
09:49:49  <andythenorth> no forests?  Is it a count of 0 on the minimap, or just missing?
09:49:50  <Alberth> Rubidium: yeah, that sounds like something you want to prevent from happening :p
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09:50:22  <Rubidium> and with good timetabling you could actually run the network more efficiently
09:50:27  <VVG> i found that thread and trying a simple route now
09:51:11  <planetmaker> oh, found one, andythenorth
09:51:19  <Rubidium> as you can schedule everything in such a manner that the train reaches critical junctions at the moment the previous train cleared it, so no more delays due to stopping and accellerating
09:51:23  <planetmaker> The 'hint' with the minimap made me find it. But I can't found one
09:51:30  <planetmaker> found as in build new
09:51:40  <planetmaker> maybe it's my settings. Let's check
09:52:02  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can fund, I'm in game year 1830
09:52:06  <planetmaker> yes. doh. Must have played around with them
09:52:18  <VVG> i guess it's not possible right now to just stand there and do nothing?
09:52:44  <planetmaker> very nice, andythenorth :-)
09:52:58  <andythenorth> dunno whether to have more variety in the tree types
09:53:00  <andythenorth> I'll test
09:53:13  <planetmaker> no problem with varying snowline height either
09:54:05  <andythenorth> cool
09:54:05  <planetmaker> andythenorth: proposal though: maybe add a forestry hut or so
09:54:32  <andythenorth> I have quite some more plans for the forest :)
09:54:33  <planetmaker> something which makes it stick out slightly
09:54:46  <planetmaker> :-) Nice. Care to share? I'm curious
09:54:49  <andythenorth> that's one reason why writing templates was so complicated :P
09:55:05  <andythenorth> I need 'someone' to finished fields
09:55:11  <andythenorth> someone / frosch123 / s
09:55:16  <planetmaker> haha :-)
09:56:40  <planetmaker> lol at farms on slopes though :-)
09:56:51  <planetmaker> the meadows look quite funny with their foundations
09:57:08  <andythenorth> indeed
09:57:12  <andythenorth> I want to add a log landing with a yarder and machinery to the forest
09:57:29  <andythenorth> then I want to use the animation routines to occasionally chop trees
09:57:45  <andythenorth> I think there's a tree stump sprite somewhere in the game already
09:57:46  <planetmaker> wow :-)
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09:57:52  <planetmaker> yes, there is afaik
09:58:03  <andythenorth> I think that can be >0.4 feature though
09:58:07  * andythenorth hopes for Foobar :P
09:58:25  <andythenorth> planetmaker: have a look at the Tropic forests
09:58:26  <planetmaker> :-)
09:58:31  <andythenorth> try building one overlapping desert...
09:59:40  <planetmaker> andythenorth: can't you re-use the ground tile there is on a per-tile basis?
09:59:50  <Illegal_Alien> Can i ask what to ask? Although, is there thought about using the lines system ala Transport Giant? (Like line one goes from there to there) current system is erm, sucky :P, Need to make a picture to make it more clear i guess :P
09:59:55  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ??
10:00:19  <Illegal_Alien> Wait it wasnt transport giant
10:00:30  <Rubidium> Illegal_Alien: many ideas, even more people NOT implementing them
10:00:43  <planetmaker> <-- andythenorth look at that forest
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10:01:17  <planetmaker> it kinda breaks the transition rain forest -> desert
10:01:51  <Rubidium> rainforest isn't directly next to desert
10:02:11  <Rubidium> you're looking at "tropical"? -> desert
10:02:28  <Rubidium> so technically the rainforest trees are completely wrong there
10:02:54  <andythenorth> hmm
10:03:02  <andythenorth> I'm open to suggestions
10:03:10  <andythenorth> I want to use those trees for the forest
10:03:23  <andythenorth> and I'm planning to prevent building the N tile on desert squares
10:03:33  <planetmaker> Rubidium: green = rain forest, brownish=desert
10:03:38  <planetmaker> what is it called in between?
10:03:38  <andythenorth> I've coded the tiles to handle the edge case of being built on desert
10:03:45  <planetmaker> or is rain forest more strict?
10:04:09  <planetmaker> andythenorth: why the N tile?
10:04:17  <planetmaker> the middle tile! :-)
10:04:30  <andythenorth> only if you want to code it
10:04:52  <andythenorth> bear in mind that this will get moved to fields, and there's going to be no way to check the tiles under fields when industry is built
10:05:00  <andythenorth> so tiles have to handle all terrain cases
10:05:11  <planetmaker> yeah
10:05:28  <planetmaker> I guess then it's just the centre and it doesn't matter really
10:05:40  <andythenorth> it would be better to use a different terrain tile under the rainforest-desert transition
10:05:51  <planetmaker> and given that it will get fields: then it's also sufficient in size :-)
10:06:08  <andythenorth> transition tiles look less bad in original graphics
10:06:14  <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'd use the transition tile ;-)
10:06:48  <planetmaker> that is sprite 4512
10:07:11  <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have no way to check for it
10:07:21  <andythenorth> this is how it looks with default graphics:
10:07:23  <Rubidium> planetmaker: lies! desert can't be made within 6 tiles of level 5+ or water tiles. Rainforest can't be made within 6 tiles of deserts (by the mapgen)
10:08:24  <planetmaker> Rubidium: ... but what *are* those tiles in between then?
10:08:25  <Rubidium> planetmaker: there are furthermore 3 tropic zones: normal, desert and rainforest
10:08:34  <planetmaker> so... normal. hm
10:08:36  <planetmaker> ok
10:08:49  <frosch123> planetmaker: rainforest is not what you think
10:08:58  <frosch123> both normal and rainforest use the same groundtiles
10:08:58  <planetmaker> yes, obviously :-)
10:09:04  <frosch123> rainforest has additional tree growth
10:09:17  <frosch123> lumbermill can only be build in rainforest
10:09:21  <andythenorth> I'm happy to build forests anywhere :)
10:09:25  <planetmaker> that's the only difference. And I don't have base set sprites for rain forest, right?
10:09:26  <frosch123> rainforest and normal have different trees though
10:09:44  <planetmaker> ah
10:09:52  <andythenorth> should I limit forests to only build on rainforest tiles?
10:09:53  <planetmaker> thanks for that clearing up for me :-)
10:10:00  <planetmaker> andythenorth: no ;-)
10:10:05  <planetmaker> but desert... well.
10:10:24  <andythenorth> frosch123: will field planting be able to check terrain type?
10:10:25  <planetmaker> maybe
10:10:54  <planetmaker> andythenorth: actually I don't think that the ground tile makes much difference between TTD and OpenGFX sprites
10:10:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: if there is a construction check it will have the same variables as industry tiles
10:11:01  <andythenorth> k
10:11:12  <andythenorth> I don't want to rely on that future unknown though :)
10:11:30  <andythenorth> how can I check for the transition tiles?  If var 60 can't get the landscape class, then there is no way to do this
10:11:42  <andythenorth> why can't var 60 get the landscape class?  Wiki implies it can...
10:11:54  <andythenorth>
10:12:03  <andythenorth> ah
10:12:11  <andythenorth> it can for nearby tiles, but not for this tile?
10:12:55  <planetmaker> nearby with offset (0/0) = this tile
10:13:20  <andythenorth> yesterday frosch123 said that wouldn't work to get landscape class of industry tiles...
10:13:35  <andythenorth> hence the pain with checking snowline :)
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10:14:28  <planetmaker> did you try to rely on those bits with offset 0/0?
10:16:03  <andythenorth> planetmaker: no frosch said it wouldn't work.  I normally defer to that
10:16:20  <planetmaker> as do I
10:16:35  <andythenorth> however I could try :P
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10:17:43  <frosch123> andythenorth: the landscape class of industry tiles is just "industry tiles"
10:17:55  <andythenorth> so no point writing code to test that :P
10:18:12  <planetmaker> but...but is exodus 20:5 really that strict in his case? :-P
10:19:05  <frosch123> and it would not give you the desert density for clear tiles either
10:19:08  <andythenorth> frosch123: so there just is *no* way to check for desert transition tiles?
10:19:21  <planetmaker> hm... that only works for 'clear', right?
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10:19:40  <andythenorth> hmm
10:19:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: halfdesert is if your tile is no desert, but one of the four neighboured tiles is
10:19:56  <andythenorth> I was thinking...check neighbouring tiles
10:20:10  <andythenorth> is there a fast way to do that, or does it mean a lot of varact2?
10:20:33  <frosch123> you need again var 60
10:20:38  <frosch123> first check the current tile
10:21:27  <frosch123> if it is no desert, then check the neighboured tiles
10:22:06  <planetmaker> andythenorth: indeed. It might be a nice idea to show the transition tile, if one of the neighbouring ones is desert
10:22:14  <andythenorth> planetmaker: want to code it? :P
10:22:29  <planetmaker> where exactly the transition is... doesn't matter as it's hidden anyway
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10:22:50  <planetmaker> andythenorth: in NML: yes :-P
10:22:55  <andythenorth> how about: use advanced varact2.  First set 0, then do max(previous result, next neighbouring tile) for each neighbour
10:23:07  <planetmaker> hu?
10:23:11  <andythenorth> then check: if 0, not a transition tile, otherwise transition
10:23:18  <andythenorth> all in one action
10:23:28  <planetmaker> ah, yes
10:23:40  <andythenorth> feel free to try it.  I'll commit
10:23:50  <frosch123> maybe check ((var60[0x10] >> 8) & 0x1) | ((var60[0x01] >> 8) & 0x1) | ((var60[0x0F] >> 8) & 0x1) | ((var60[0xF0] >> 8) & 0x1) for != 0
10:24:24  <andythenorth> operator 0C
10:24:25  <andythenorth> ?
10:24:29  <andythenorth> bitwise OR
10:24:39  <frosch123> yes, |
10:24:47  <andythenorth> looks quite plausible
10:24:53  <andythenorth> planetmaker: ^^
10:24:59  <andythenorth> frosch has nearly done it for you :)
10:25:10  <andythenorth> latest code is pushed
10:25:29  <andythenorth> I'll work on a log landing tile meanwhile
10:25:38  <andythenorth> advanced varact 2 is good for you
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11:10:08  <VVG> Is ottd year 372 days long?
11:10:30  <Alberth> @calc 372 / 12
11:10:30  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 31
11:12:27  <Alberth> I think no
11:12:48  <VVG> just  checked the actual values, it isn't
11:12:58  <VVG> timetable start date window confused me
11:13:07  <Alberth> I checked something in src/date.cpp yes
11:13:56  <VVG> Is ti 365?
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11:14:57  <Rubidium> that's closer, though it isn't always 365
11:15:07  <Alberth> there is leapyear code, so my guess is that it is about the case in 3/4 of the years
11:16:03  <VVG> thanks
11:16:16  <avdg> hmm
11:16:32  * avdg checks out the leapyear code :d
11:16:58  <Alberth> src/date.cpp, line 88
11:17:06  <avdg> ty :p
11:17:14  <Rubidium> the leap year code is definitely wrong
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11:18:23  <Rubidium> (before ~1582)
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11:18:24  <avdg> hmm, I am used to see the leapyear code in a separated funciton
11:18:45  <avdg> yeah, before that date, there is no leapyear
11:19:02  <Aemy> Someone is playing using dates before 1800? :x
11:19:20  <avdg> :p some grf have horses
11:19:33  <avdg> so I bet there are players playing before 1800
11:20:24  <Aemy> Oh, really? I must check out that stuff \o/
11:20:47  <Rubidium> and it's probably wrong for the future as well as there need to be more leap days (something like one every 8000 years)
11:21:11  <avdg> yeah, but I think you can't put that in a formula
11:21:26  <avdg> the rotation of the earth is not a constant
11:21:48  <avdg> but I have to go, dinnertime
11:22:03  <Rubidium> earth rotation influences days, i.e. leap seconds
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11:23:29  <Rubidium> although, yes... the trip around the sun is probably not constant. However, the time scales are much larger there so it takes way longer before it becomes problematic
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11:23:40  <VVG> What's the use of a leapyear in ottd?
11:24:17  <Rubidium> preventing bug reports that there is no 29th of February 2012
11:24:32  <VVG> oh
11:24:55  <VVG> Was there really such reports?
11:25:21  <Alberth> there are bug reports about the number of casualties with accidents
11:25:24  <Rubidium> well, there have been more stupid reports
11:26:27  <Alberth> so yes, users will miss that day and report it
11:26:52  <Rubidium> like... "pressing the signal button makes trains crash" (paraphrased)
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11:46:28  <VVG> the imposibility of setting up a wait time in timetable for go to depot order - is that intentional because of "uselessness" or a work needed to implement? Or just wasn't thought of?
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11:48:42  <Amis> Hello
11:48:51  <Alberth> hello
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11:50:23  <andythenorth> one thing always leads to another :P
11:50:32  <andythenorth> now I have to restrict CC ranges for Forest
11:51:40  <Amis> I need some help in understanding a traffic jam, more specific: traffic jam with path signals
11:51:55  <Amis> I second and I link an image
11:52:13  <Amis> here
11:52:52  <Amis> The trains in the bottom wont enter the block till a train leaves the station. Why is that?
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11:54:08  <Rubidium> it's because the trains reserve till the next signal
11:54:09  <avdg> amis: why should a train enter an occupied block?
11:54:48  <Amis> But theres still 4-5 empty stations there
11:54:50  <Rubidium> if you turn on "show reserved paths" you'll notice that pieces of track are darker at the back of those stations, which is where the trains still have reservations
11:54:54  <VVG> turn on show reserved paths, that should help understatding it
11:55:01  <Amis> Its turned on, Rubidium
11:55:11  <Amis> On the screenshot, its on
11:55:47  <avdg> hmm.. I see some abuse with the reverted pbs signals
11:55:48  <Amis> And you can see that the tracks are not reserved
11:55:51  <Rubidium> the next issue is that the pathfinder only sees the penalty up to the station, so it sees that as the best option
11:55:59  <avdg> I hope you know what these signals do
11:56:15  <Rubidium> however, because it can't actually reserve the train is blocked
11:57:16  <Amis> [13:55] <avdg> hmm.. I see some abuse with the reverted pbs signals
11:57:20  <Amis> Where, what, why?
11:57:38  <avdg> left of the powerplant for example
11:57:53  <avdg> they are not needed except for some pf reasons
11:58:19  <Amis> Those are there because if a train enters from the other side it reserves track at this side when its loading/unloading
11:58:23  <avdg> but they are on every 'exit', so they are useless
11:59:13  <avdg> well, you have to do it on an other way
11:59:41  <avdg> add 1 extra track between the station and the junction and put there you're signal
11:59:47  <avdg> and it will do just fine
11:59:56  <Amis> ><
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12:01:40  <Amis> Fine, but I still don't see why it can't reserve a track to the station
12:01:56  <avdg> its simpy: its blocked
12:02:03  <avdg> try the layout I descrived
12:02:06  <Amis> What blocks it? ~~
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12:02:15  <avdg> the paths
12:02:29  <Amis> I can't see any blocked, dark path
12:02:34  <Amis> Only at the other side
12:02:57  <avdg> the train has to reserve a path to the exit, wich is the other side of the station
12:03:00  <Rubidium> Amis: those bits on "the other side" prevent the train from reserving a path
12:03:31  <avdg> like I already said, try the descrived layout
12:04:57  <Amis> I know that way it would work but I thought this layout would work too
12:04:58  <Amis> Blah
12:05:23  <avdg> well, feel free to experiment
12:05:39  <Amis> I guess I don't really get how a station behaves in this situation
12:05:43  <avdg> you btw can only learn stuff that way
12:05:57  <Alberth> Amis: for path reservation, a station is the same as normal track
12:05:58  <avdg> by making errors
12:13:05  <andythenorth> planetmaker:
12:13:34  <Alberth> xmas!
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12:14:45  <planetmaker> nice :-)
12:14:53  <planetmaker> though... will there be a crane?
12:15:25  <planetmaker> I'd expect some 4wd vehicle with a kind of claw to be there
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12:16:20  <andythenorth> there will be a yarder when I get around to drawing it
12:16:36  <andythenorth>
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12:51:07  <VVG> I just found that one of my trains stays longer than specified time because it's loading. Is there some way around that?
12:56:21  <Wolf01> no full load and timetable
12:59:52  <avdg> won't work if the train is still loading
12:59:55  <avdg> just saying
13:00:46  <VVG> it already is timetabled without full load
13:04:23  <avdg> the problem with the current implementation is that a train can't stop loading when it has to leave the station
13:07:26  <VVG> :(
13:07:44  <VVG> that breaks whole timetabling for me :(
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13:54:06  <VVG> my vehicles get up to a month late :(
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14:02:29  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: it's mainly a problem with passengers/mail
14:02:43  <Eddi|zuHause> and the only solution i know is turning off gradual loading
14:04:26  <VVG> what does gradual loading do? and how it works without it?
14:09:01  <robotboy> without gradual loading your cargo is instantly loaded from the station into your train whereas gradual loading makes it take time to load the cargo
14:10:12  <avdg> is there no way to interupt gradual loading?
14:23:10  <VVG> without gradual loading the already setup timetable breaks in a different way :/
14:25:04  <avdg> how then?
14:30:01  <robotboy> can I transfer code between two SVN repos without loosing version info?
14:32:03  <Alberth> what version info?
14:32:42  <Alberth> you mean the commit message, or the revision?
14:32:46  <robotboy> or more like file history so previous revisions
14:32:53  <VVG> avdg:
14:33:45  <Alberth> dump the repo (svndump), then add the relevant revisions back to the other repo
14:33:51  <Rubidium> robotboy: in what context? Just copying e.g. trunk which keeping the revisions (i.e. same revision numbers) in tact into a new repository?
14:33:52  <VVG> avdg: with gradual loading it's ok at the strat of the cycle, but trouble i had is with Terminus1 station. Without gradual loading i get the jam at Local2 :(
14:34:15  <Alberth> however, dumping repo is more for copying/moving complete repos
14:34:44  <Rubidium> there is some script that can filter svndumps though
14:35:22  <Rubidium> on the other hand, svnsync works quite well as well; if you make the stuff you don't want unreadable it'll even keep the revisions in tact
14:35:26  <Rubidium> @commit 10000
14:35:26  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: Commit r10000 doesn't exists
14:35:54  <Rubidium> ^ that was in a place svnsync didn't have access to
14:36:06  <Alberth> svn is not really designed to copy code between different repos, a dvcs does it much better
14:37:11  <Rubidium> zodttd: what's the reason that people say OpenTTD has gone from itunes again?
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14:39:43  <Rubidium> let me guess... timeout for robotboy in a few seconds, so he hasn't seen a bit from what we've written
14:46:13  <michi_cc> robotboy, Eddi|zuHause: Try
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14:46:32  <michi_cc> Or rather VVG
14:47:13  <VVG> it's no use for me, i can't compile :(
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14:48:18  <Rubidium> so it's an incentive to learn how to compile
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14:50:29  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20490 /trunk/ (31 files in 4 dirs):
14:50:29  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Change: merge the extra GRF sources so updating them becomes a bit easier.
14:50:29  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: The (prebuilt) grf will still remain, so if you don't have NFORenum and GRFCodec it will still work.
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14:53:48  <VVG> Took a look at wiki page on compiling, latest it has is VC++ 2008 expres. Microsoft page offers 2010 version, will it work?
14:54:16  <Rubidium> stable releases not, though trunk should compile with MSVC
14:54:23  <michi_cc> It works with full 2010, so express should be okay
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14:58:22  * r0b0tb0y might dl the source
14:58:27  <VVG> Installing 2008 version, which i found a way to get. 2010 wanted to isntall too much on my c drive :(
14:59:24  <r0b0tb0y> whats the current rev?
15:01:34  <glx> 20490
15:03:20  * r0b0tb0y waits for VS2008 Pro to load
15:05:13  <michi_cc> Service announcement: The posted patch is not in svn format so TortoiseSVN will fail to apply it.
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15:05:30  <r0b0tb0y> ok
15:05:39  * r0b0tb0y pulls patch.exe out
15:05:48  <michi_cc> use -p1
15:08:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20491 /branches/1.0/ (32 files in 4 dirs):
15:08:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
15:08:34  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Change: merge the extra GRF's sources (r20490)
15:11:22  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20492 /extra/ottd_grf/: [OTTD_GRF] -Cleanup: the graphic's sources are now merge into trunk, so make it very obvious that this isn't the up-to-date place anymore
15:11:55  <r0b0tb0y> does the diff need to be in the folder I checked the source out into for patch to work?
15:12:19  <r0b0tb0y> I can;'t remember what I did last time I tried using patch
15:12:50  <Alberth> no, just the working directory of patch
15:13:10  <r0b0tb0y> ok
15:13:11  <Alberth> ie you can do patch -p1 < ../../../very/far/away/my.patch
15:15:12  <Ammler> and you should have patch.exe somewhere in your %PATH%
15:15:23  <Ammler> or however that is called in windows
15:16:24  <r0b0tb0y> it is in my path
15:16:52  <r0b0tb0y> just patched after saving the diff in wordpad to convert the nl's and am compiling
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15:17:25  <VVG> VC setup didn't like mIRC being open for some reason :(
15:18:12  <Ammler> patch should be able to handle the different newlines right away
15:18:28  <r0b0tb0y> not on Windows
15:20:08  <r0b0tb0y> now what do I need to test?
15:20:13  <Rubidium> Ammler: should doesn't imply that it behaves that way in Windows, e.g. Internet Explorer should obey HTML, yet it doesn't
15:20:52  <Ammler> but patch.exe is the same patch tool as "we" use, isn't?
15:21:21  <r0b0tb0y> what am I looking for?
15:21:31  <Rubidium> Ammler: the one we would use 15 years ago, but with more bugs
15:21:44  <Ammler> oh :-)
15:22:33  <r0b0tb0y> !logs
15:24:45  <Alberth>
15:24:50  <Ammler> r0b0tb0y:
15:25:59  <r0b0tb0y> ive got that applied and running in debug
15:26:10  <r0b0tb0y> what should it fix?
15:29:48  <r0b0tb0y> does it fix the previously linked sav game?
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15:36:57  <andythenorth> not sure about foundations on very steep slopes
15:37:12  <andythenorth> dunno if it's right to allow building on such slopes - produces double foundations
15:38:24  <andythenorth> ach, bridges and rails do it
15:38:25  <andythenorth> it's fine
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16:09:03  <VVG> I tried to compile trunk, log says Build: 3 succeeded, 0 failed, 1 up-to-date, 1 skipped, now i have no idea what next step should be
16:09:24  <VVG> I found openttd.exe, it's hidden between a bunch of obj files and such
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16:11:14  <avdg> vvg: just use it
16:11:51  <VVG> i get "no avaible language packs (invalid version?)"
16:12:02  <avdg> hmm
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16:12:13  <Terkhen> if you move openttd.exe to the /bin folder it should work
16:12:28  <Terkhen> it is more correct to run Makefile.msvc with msys or search the forums for batch scripts that do the same thing
16:13:21  <VVG> moving did the trick
16:13:39  <VVG> though i have a M version. Is that because i skipped DirectX?
16:14:55  <avdg> no, a modified version of openttd
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16:15:42  <VVG> i wonder what i could have modified then
16:16:36  <avdg> hmm can you check svn on changes
16:18:06  <VVG> what do you mean?
16:19:13  <avdg> how did you grab the source files?
16:20:15  <VVG> tortoise svn
16:20:29  <avdg> wel svn can check if there are modifications
16:21:26  <VVG> openttd_vs90.vcproj the only one
16:21:40  <VVG> this brings back my original question i think :)
16:23:51  <avdg> :p
16:24:01  <avdg> kinda stopid change
16:29:33  <VVG> "Rebuild solution" is a way to go when recompiling with an applied patch?
16:33:02  <Rubidium> just a build should do the trick
16:33:20  <Rubidium> i.e. build solution
16:33:28  <Rubidium> that'll (re)build everything that has changed
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16:40:55  <VVG> after one cycle run, looks like vehicles leave as scheduled now, skipping further loading.
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16:43:04  <VVG> It's great! Thank you all very much.
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16:45:07  <VVG> If i have a M version of ottd, does it mean savegame versions will be different compared to trunk?
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16:47:21  <Rubidium> VVG: that depends very much on what you've patched it with
16:47:33  <Rubidium> in some cases it will mean that, in other cases it won't mean that
16:48:10  <VVG> economy.cpp with that michi_cc's patch. And compiled without directx.
16:56:52  * r0b0tb0y should go to bed
17:05:14  <Hirundo> What's wrong with this C++ code: ?
17:06:55  <Rubidium> maybe it tries to free something upon destruction of the stuff in *foo
17:07:31  <Rubidium> i.e. some pointer of IntList you just allocated isn't NULL and now the assignment tries to free that for you
17:07:42  <Rubidium> so you might try calloct
17:07:56  <Hirundo> Is a list constructor run for the malloc-ed list?
17:08:09  <Rubidium> Hirundo: no, never
17:08:24  <Rubidium> although you could also (just) do a IntList *foo = new IntList(); but you need to delete it instead of free it in that case
17:09:21  <Hirundo> The actual case is slightly more complicated (the list is in a vector) so that's not really desirable
17:10:02  <Hirundo> Of course, another layer of indirection can solve any problem at the cost of some speed
17:10:02  <Rubidium> so do std::vector<IntList>
17:10:38  <Rubidium> what extra layer of indirection does IntList *foo = new IntList() add over your code?
17:11:18  <Hirundo> That would mean a vector of IntList * instead of Intlist
17:11:55  <Rubidium> as new is just a fancy way of saying malloc some memory and run the constructor and delete is a fancy way of saying run the destructor and free
17:13:08  <Hirundo> In this case, the memory is malloc'ed somewhere else
17:14:18  <Rubidium> then you'll have to memory first, otherwise the assignment operator is doing its thing
17:14:42  <Rubidium> yay for assignments with "benefits"
17:17:36  <Hirundo> hmm... I guess I'll have to come up with some workaround
17:18:04  <Rubidium> s/memory/memset/
17:20:17  <Hirundo> Is it guaranteed that memsetting to 0 sets the list to the default state?
17:21:44  <Rubidium> it'd be my best bet, although does foo = new (foo) IntList(); work?
17:23:14  <Hirundo> I'll check that
17:23:57  <Alberth> make a wrapper class around IntList* and do vector<WrapperClass>
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17:30:20  <Hirundo> thanks for the suggestions, I'll look at them later
17:31:13  * Rubidium wonders how the wrapper class is better over just making a vector of intlists
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17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20493 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 4 changes by lorenzodv
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 2 changes by junho2813
17:45:50  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: polish - 2 changes by silver_777
17:45:50  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: russian - 4 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:47:02  *** r0b0tb0y [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:02:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20494 /branches/1.0/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:02:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: [1.0] -Backport from trunk:
18:02:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NoAI] checking whether water tiles are connected failed in some cases [FS#4031] (r20489)
18:02:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Statues were not removed when towns would be removed (r20481)
18:02:11  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Building statues used different companys for CMD_LANDSCAPE_CLEAR during testrun and DC_EXEC (r20469)
18:02:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: Adding 'goto nearest depot and stop' orders in one go was denied. This caused both AI adding those orders and backed up order restoration to fail [FS#4024] (r20441)
18:02:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: - Fix: For docks 'facing' north, i.e. having the watery part a the northern
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18:15:08  <planetmaker> hm... is it just me or have there been lately way more backports than before?
18:15:40  <Alberth> you can count them in the log
18:15:47  <planetmaker> :-)
18:16:00  <planetmaker> one backport can be more than one patch, though
18:19:58  <andythenorth> should I prevent FIRS industry building next to unmovables?
18:20:17  <planetmaker> why?
18:20:31  <planetmaker> what's wrong with a fishing harbour next to a light house?
18:20:47  <planetmaker> or a telecomunications tower next to a forest?
18:21:32  <ccfreak2k> Forests are unremovable?
18:21:32  <Eddi|zuHause> [14.08.2010 16:46] <michi_cc> robotboy, Eddi|zuHause: Try <-- i don't think that is a good approach at all. as it a) doesn't solve the "drop by drop" loading when no timetable is set, and causes "regular" late trains to go empty, even though the platform has plenty of passengers
18:21:45  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause:
18:22:00  <andythenorth> planetmaker: the only issue is where FIRS industries leave a gap
18:22:06  <andythenorth> it's common to get a comms tower in the middle of a meat packer...
18:22:26  <planetmaker> andythenorth: doesn't matter either. It's also seen
18:22:32  <andythenorth> k
18:23:00  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: that looks better
18:24:16  <Rubidium> planetmaker: the number of backports are related to the amount of work on trunk as well to the lack of backports between RCn and the final release
18:24:52  <Rubidium> though yes, there have been more backports in the 1.0 series. Primarily because more bugs were reported, although I reckon that is very much related to the increased number of players and such
18:25:44  <planetmaker> :-) Doubtful that the code quality got so much worse ;-) than the amount of (felt) backports makes it feel ;-)
18:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's a clear case of using the wrong metric ;)
18:26:56  <planetmaker> hehe
18:27:06  <Rubidium> planetmaker: clear case of
18:28:45  <planetmaker> :-)
18:30:41  <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't there a recommendation of the british government to rather use ie6 with "firewalls" and "antivirus" than switch browsers?
18:31:24  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I seem to remember something like that, though the reason was that it's primarily because of the crappy HTML IE6 liked which breaks in most other browsers
18:31:56  <Eddi|zuHause> it was fairly recently...
18:32:07  <Eddi|zuHause> like two weeks ago or something
18:33:08  <Rubidium> planetmaker: also I did backports in one long slurry; now I'm spreading the work, so you see them more often... but shorter
18:33:28  <planetmaker> that might be the case
18:33:49  <planetmaker> what made you change that? Better spread out the boring work?
18:34:04  <andythenorth> Is there a case for building industries touching?
18:34:18  <planetmaker> andythenorth: why not?
18:34:18  <andythenorth> I could make it possible for players / scenario editor if it's desired
18:34:41  <planetmaker> a bakery next to a grocery is not unheart of
18:34:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that's what I figured
18:34:56  <andythenorth> I'm shutting down this old issue:
18:35:02  <planetmaker> :-)
18:35:10  <andythenorth> but what map gen does and what player does can be different
18:35:15  <planetmaker> sure
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18:35:37  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could enforce the distance only for industries which are larger than 3x3
18:35:38  <planetmaker> IMHO a player / in the SE any placement rules should be dis-obeyed
18:39:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20495 /branches/1.0/src/lang/ (29 files in 2 dirs): [1.0] -Backport (some manual) language updates from trunk
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18:50:47  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: a bit more correct:
18:53:21  <michi_cc> VVG: can you try this better patch as well?
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19:05:33  <VVG> michi_cc: ugh. not sure. I applied the previous one by hand since tortoise merge didn't seem to do anything and new one seems complicated to do it that way
19:07:39  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: just remove the a/ and b/ parts, then it should work
19:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> VVG: or get the command line patch
19:08:51  <VVG> a/ b/?
19:09:57  <Eddi|zuHause> in the patch, there are lines like +++ a/src/blah and --- b/src/blah
19:10:08  <Eddi|zuHause> remove the a/ and b/
19:12:46  <VVG> seems like i'm doing something wrong, because it does not work for me
19:14:02  <VVG> where can i get the command line utility?
19:14:45  <Terkhen>
19:15:03  <VVG> thanks
19:15:11  <Terkhen> remember to use -p0 for svn patches and -p1 for git/mercurial patches
19:15:46  <Terkhen> hmmm... IIRC this one had issues with unix style EOL
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19:18:55  <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: afaik, tortoisesvn doesn't work with "stripped" git/hg patches
19:19:43  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: maybe it also needs adjustment of the "index" lines
19:19:58  <Ammler> and some hacks with new/deleted files
19:20:00  <Eddi|zuHause> which shouldn't matter at all, because they are basically comments
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19:22:13  <VVG> i get assertion failed from patch :/
19:22:56  <Terkhen> it is the one with unix EOL issues then :)
19:23:41  <Terkhen> I used to convert the patch files to dos EOL with notepad++, I don't know if notepad or wordpad can be used for the same thing
19:23:46  <VVG> why does tortoise fails appliying that diff?
19:24:20  <Rubidium> VVG: because it wasn't written with compatability in mind
19:24:22  <planetmaker> because it's stupid
19:29:04  <VVG> converted line endigs, patch seems applied
19:30:49  <VVG> patch didn't like folder as input, so i had to specify economy.cpp as original file. however, diff modded 2 files so i had to specify another one by hand later on. How do i properly tell patch in which directory to look for files from the start?
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19:40:43  <VVG> michi_cc: it works from what i can see. i have no idea what's the difference is compared to previos one though :)
19:41:15  <michi_cc> It helps also for no timetables
19:46:12  <VVG> vehicles without full load won't get stuck loading untill full anymore?
19:51:57  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
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19:54:59  <michi_cc> At least as long as less passengers arrive than what can be loaded per load cycle.
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20:04:34  <Alberth> otherwise you have bigger problems than vehicles riding on time :)
20:08:59  <Alberth> VVG: patch uses the directory you are in when you start the program, as starting point
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20:10:59  <X56> i'm having a small issue , on stations i keep getting the normal stuff it accepts and <invalid cargo>
20:11:08  <X56> the invalid cargo is a concern of mine...
20:11:17  <X56> dunno how to fix it
20:11:35  <X56> it never changed what it accepted
20:11:39  <Eddi|zuHause> X56: did you remove grfs from your game?
20:11:47  <X56> i dont think so...
20:11:50  <glx> probably
20:11:54  <X56> i don't know what grf adds cargo types
20:12:06  <X56> i was thinking this
20:12:07  <X56> too
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20:15:33  <Eddi|zuHause> thanks for sharing ;)
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20:20:13  <VVG> i did try to test without timetables, but can't say if it is working as intended. sometimes vehicles stays until fully loaded, sometimes leave before that
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20:58:50  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:14:01  <Zuu> Hmm, I think I should probably make it so that the "clear filter" button no longer removes the selection.
21:16:21  <Alberth> that seems a sane idea, filter context has nothing to do with my selected item :)
21:16:28  <Alberth> *contents
21:17:07  <Terkhen> I agree too :)
21:17:14  <planetmaker> yup :-)
21:22:17  <Zuu> I found out that the two buttons I add had no tooltip - so I've added that. :-)
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21:23:29  <Zuu> The connection is that previously the only way to select something was to use the same edit box that is used to enter a filter string. :-)
21:24:59  <Zuu> While the button names are fairly self speaking in English, there could be translations that want to simplify the button text due to long words.
21:28:55  <Eddi|zuHause> german is notoriously known for having longer texts than english
21:29:49  <planetmaker> indeed. I'd say 90% of the translations in German are longer than the English equivalent
21:31:35  <Rubidium> longer texts, but more words?
21:31:45  <Rubidium> I'd reckon it uses less words :)
21:32:02  <glx> less spaces for sure :)
21:32:37  <planetmaker> Rubidium: maybe. But words tend to be longer, too
21:32:54  <planetmaker> like "go to" --> "fahre zu"
21:33:18  <planetmaker> track -> Schiene
21:33:22  <planetmaker> etc.
21:33:34  <planetmaker> only notable exception is train -> Zug ;-)
21:33:38  <planetmaker> s/only//
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21:34:22  <Rubidium> train station -> Bahnhof... is that better or not?
21:34:45  <Rubidium> @calc 13/7
21:34:45  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1.85714285714
21:34:52  <Rubidium> @calc 5/3
21:34:52  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 1.66666666667
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21:35:02  <Rubidium> yay... that's even more effective :)
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21:45:20  * TruePikachu cannot get much work done on the formula due to an incomplete wiki page
21:45:48  <TruePikachu> The game mechanics page does not mention what unit to use for each value,
21:45:55  <TruePikachu> (for accelleration)
21:46:20  <TruePikachu> Neither does the page on tractive effort
21:46:39  <TruePikachu> (at least, unit conversions may mess it up)
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21:47:17  <planetmaker> SI units
21:47:46  <TruePikachu> Maybe it should be listed on the page then
21:48:01  <planetmaker> it's a wiki, you know
21:48:17  <TruePikachu> Okay, I'll start KDE up, I guess
21:48:30  <TruePikachu> But, in that case, what is the SI for power?
21:48:34  <planetmaker> watts
21:48:45  <TruePikachu> Okay...
21:49:03  <TruePikachu> And are you sure that unit conversions won't mess up the calculations?
21:49:25  <TruePikachu> On my TI-84+SE, I use a nifty little app which hooks into the OS (kind of like a TSR)
21:50:04  <TruePikachu> It does unit operations, so I can, for example, multiply current by resistance to get voltage
21:50:08  <planetmaker> of course you can mess-up any calculation by doing a wrong conversion
21:50:34  <planetmaker> TruePikachu: and... does that help?
21:50:41  <TruePikachu> No, I mean, for example, that the accelleration page does not seem to really even use units in the traditional sense
21:51:11  <Zuu> A bonus with making clicked signs selected in my patch is that selected sign will never scroll out of view in the sign list window. (The list will auto-scroll in case it would otherwise end up above/below the list)
21:51:33  <planetmaker> TruePikachu: maybe. I'm not sure about all formula and their OpenTTD-native units
21:51:57  <TruePikachu> It mixes things such as speed squared (m^2/s^2) with scalars (some number times number of cars in train)
21:52:10  <TruePikachu> (those things are added, not multiplied)
21:53:11  <TruePikachu> From a programming viewpoint, it makes sense, but it is madness from a mathematical-scientific viewpoint
21:53:20  <Terkhen> of course
21:53:44  <Terkhen> OpenTTD scale is not realistic at all, the formulas won't make sense
21:54:18  <TruePikachu> Well, the Wiki page could say something like:
21:54:31  <Terkhen> for example, IIRC for some calculations a tile was 700 km long
21:54:45  <TruePikachu> ^^ speed, and it was smaller
21:54:54  <TruePikachu> Something like 486mi
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21:55:09  <TruePikachu> Actually, that makes it bigger :P
21:56:13  <TruePikachu> But anyway, the Wiki could state something like "Speed^2-Cars*(1 m/s per car)
21:56:15  <TruePikachu> "
21:56:22  <TruePikachu> Something along those lines
21:56:31  <Rubidium> as if scientific measuring devices measure in SI units :)
21:56:52  <TruePikachu> Some things have multiple potential SI units
21:56:58  <TruePikachu> (kind of)
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21:57:25  <Rubidium> that pulse of light returns after n clock cycles, so the distance must be <formula> away
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21:57:54  <TruePikachu> I remember at one time, in one field of study, my teacher used horsepower all the time instead of watts
21:57:59  <TruePikachu> SCIENCE teacher
21:58:03  <Terkhen> eew
21:58:14  <Rubidium> horsepower one of the worst units
21:58:23  <Rubidium> similarly are ton(ne)s
21:59:03  <TruePikachu> I mean, yeah, it _can_ be easier to use SI units, but if you aren't used to them (and you live in the US, so you have the game set to Imperial), yeah...
21:59:22  <TruePikachu> It would be easier to just write this all out on the Wiki
21:59:36  <TruePikachu> In a way that makes sense
21:59:47  <TruePikachu> I mean, who adds speed to train length?
22:00:54  <TruePikachu> Oh well, back to the units I'll be creating
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22:01:49  <TruePikachu> One unit I came up with would be the speed efficiency ratio, being the calculated max speed (from the Tractive Effort page) over the engine's max speed (the one on the Buy screen)
22:02:13  <TruePikachu> If it is less than 100%, you are not getting the full potential speed
22:02:26  <TruePikachu> If it is 100%, you can just get the full potential speed
22:02:57  <TruePikachu> If it is over 100%, you can either add more weight, or you can use the acelleration boost from less mass
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22:04:00  <TruePikachu> I can't really come up with other new units that would be useful, as I didn't really have much internet over my trip
22:04:48  <TruePikachu> (i.e. only at the aquarium (not at lunch, because the Wi-Fi strangely didn't reach there), and at McDonalds.)
22:05:29  <TruePikachu> Some genius decided to set up the hotel's Wi-Fi 'license agreement' screen incorrectly
22:06:15  <TruePikachu> It somehow managed to crash the DS web browser, and kernel paniced DSLinux (when viewed under Retawq)
22:07:19  <TruePikachu> Also, right now, I'm going to design a special junction
22:08:21  <V453000> special junction you say ... :)
22:08:27  <TruePikachu> Freight slows down PAX, so how can you split them apart? With a reverse priority reverse merge, or a speed-sorted split
22:08:38  <TruePikachu> There is something like it at the coop IIRC
22:08:45  <TruePikachu> It sorts trains by length
22:09:12  <V453000> length is the most reliable/only possible? way how to sort trains indeed :)
22:09:28  <V453000> but in the end you will get two separate networks anyway
22:09:29  <TruePikachu> My version lets multiple trains in at the same time, so if the 'length block' is occupied (from long or slow train), the train moves aside
22:09:39  <TruePikachu> *will let
22:10:15  <TruePikachu> I actually keep my networks combined
22:10:39  <V453000> yea ... the thing is that you will reach different parts of network ... therefore you can make them completely separate and ignore any train lengths :)
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22:10:47  <V453000> well, have fun then :)
22:11:07  <V453000> you can also use the same speed for all pax or cargo engines ;)
22:11:16  <TruePikachu> ^^ but not with NARS
22:11:36  <TruePikachu> ^^ and relistic accelleration with a 5x mass multiplier
22:11:48  <V453000> I guess you have the wagon speed limits on
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22:11:54  <TruePikachu> Yes, that too
22:12:04  <V453000> thats retarded option standalone if you asked me :p
22:12:20  <TruePikachu> Well, the default trainset was boring
22:12:26  <TruePikachu> Even with OTTD+
22:12:50  <TruePikachu> I want a better challenge
22:12:55  <V453000> wagon speed limits have nothing to do with the original trainset ... except they dont work with it
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22:13:15  <TruePikachu> It lets there be a greater variety of speeds
22:13:21  <V453000> different train speeds doesnt mean better challenege, but actually as a result it could mean LESS challenge
22:13:27  <V453000> because you tend to split networks :)
22:13:32  <VVG> V453000: Timetabling?
22:13:35  <BCMM> what controls the changes in a vehicle model's maximum reliability over time?
22:13:36  <TruePikachu> I don't split networks
22:13:47  <V453000> how is timetabling related?
22:13:48  *** avdg1 is now known as avdg
22:13:48  <VVG> err, didn't scroll down enough :/
22:14:00  <VVG> that was to [02:09:10] <V453000> length is the most reliable/only possible? way how to sort trains indeed :)
22:14:14  <TruePikachu> V453000: I saw a thread on the Forum about that, you timetable the fast apart from the slow
22:14:27  <V453000> well that is possible too probably
22:14:31  <V453000> but still
22:14:44  <V453000> it is best to have all trains unified in my opinion ... - or if you want challenge
22:14:55  <TruePikachu> brb
22:15:50  <Terkhen> good night
22:15:52  <VVG> well, depends on play style i guess
22:16:25  <V453000> well sure
22:16:29  <V453000> but what is challenge :p
22:16:38  <V453000> money? dont be ridiculous :)
22:17:55  <VVG> i didn't say that
22:18:54  <VVG> well, i found a new one today - timetabled networks with different speeds :)
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