Log for #openttd on 19th September 2010:
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00:03:05  <TruePikachu> I put a thread up on the forums
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00:46:22  <TruePikachu> Wireless adapter became unavailible for some reason...
00:46:50  <TruePikachu> Anyway, which do you use inside cities for like a metro service: HSLC or LSHC?
00:48:36  <TruePikachu> * High speed low cap or low speed high cap
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01:01:23  <SmatZ> mmm forums are backuping :(
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02:16:24  <Pikka> so!
02:16:38  <Pikka> Why isn't my action 14 working? :[
02:16:53  <Pikka> tell me, oh holders of the crystal ball
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02:53:40  <Pikka> ah
02:54:00  <Pikka> it wasn't that my action 14 wasn't working so much as my grfcodec wasn't working so it wasn't updating the grf <_<;
02:55:08  <Pikka> also, many of the examples on the wiki page have one too many 00s it appears...
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03:04:09  <Pikka> or maybe not
03:04:12  <Pikka> anyway, I worked it out :)
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06:24:41  <Yrol_Denjeah> Hello :o)
06:24:48  <Yrol_Denjeah> How can i slow down the game?
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06:38:06  <planetmaker> moin
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06:38:15  <planetmaker> no way to slow down the game there
06:38:20  <planetmaker> ^ Yrol_Denjeah
06:40:38  <Yrol_Denjeah> planetmaker: moinmoin, not at all? Not even if i recompile?
06:41:10  <planetmaker> if you can programme, yes. Search for the day length patch
06:41:32  <Yrol_Denjeah> oh, there is a grf aalready?
06:41:33  <planetmaker> but those savegames might not compatible anymore with normal
06:41:43  <planetmaker> that's not possible via grf
06:42:16  <Yrol_Denjeah> so the patch i hae to weave into the source, yes?
06:46:31  <Yrol_Denjeah> not then?
06:47:00  <planetmaker> there are as far as I know only source code patches around, yes
06:47:13  <planetmaker> binary patches make little sense for open source games
06:48:46  <Yrol_Denjeah> °bows deeply° my apologies oh master, i shall remove my stinking stupid self then from your sight for i am not worthy
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06:55:59  <ccfreak2k> I was thinking "lower the CPU clock".
06:56:38  <planetmaker> but that doesn't help. Unless you lower it so much that it lags. which is uncomfortable for the input ;-)
06:57:22  <planetmaker> I just wonder whether I've been that condescending to warrent his last sentence...
06:57:24  <ccfreak2k> Hey, you gotta make sacrifices.
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07:16:39  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:21:49  <planetmaker> moin Terkhen
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08:44:30  <GecK> hello
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09:07:25  <planetmaker> moin GecK
09:07:35  <planetmaker> moin Alberth
09:07:51  <Alberth> good morning
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09:24:25  <Zuu> Good morning planetmaker, Alberth & Geck
09:24:57  <Zuu> my bad, sorry for highlighting you.
09:25:07  <planetmaker> moin Zuu
09:27:52  <GecK> morning everybody
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09:34:49  <heffer> planetmaker: regarding my bug from yesterday: and yes, it's fixed in hg
09:35:47  <planetmaker> good to know. I guess we can then ship the current repo as 0.3.1
09:36:58  <planetmaker> you did need an option to (not) install license and changelog, too, right?
09:37:28  <heffer> right
09:37:39  <heffer> rpm installs all the docs for us
09:38:00  <heffer> i define what files in the tarball are docs and rpm will install them automatically
09:38:03  <TomyLobo> firs?`
09:38:21  <heffer> reason being: by that you are able to install pkgs without docs
09:39:19  <planetmaker> did you test current grfcodec / nforenum? I have a patch for the makefile which basically ports that behaviour
09:39:45  <planetmaker> you can specify each separately
09:40:04  <planetmaker> controlling the installation of readme/license/changelog into DOCDIR
09:40:14  <heffer> planetmaker: not yet. i'm planning to update the complete openttd stack very soon
09:40:36  <heffer> at the moment i'm at FUDCon (which is Fedora Users and Developers Conference) in ZÃŒrich
09:40:42  <planetmaker> aye :-)
09:41:28  <planetmaker> TomyLobo: no. That doesn't need shipping with OpenTTD. Base sets
09:42:23  <planetmaker> heffer: I guess I can then present you 0.3.1 in the next days, maybe today
09:42:53  <TomyLobo> oh wait, firs is at 0.4.0 now :D
09:43:01  <heffer> planetmaker: that's great news :) i will then include that into my stack update and skip 0.3.0
09:47:44  <planetmaker> btw, heffer, it seems you didn't use a nightly grfcodec / nforenum. Older ones will give you warnings... there are new GUI sprites old versions don't yet know of
09:48:00  <planetmaker> it's not fatal and has no real impact... but you might wonder ;-)
09:48:27  <heffer> planetmaker: okay. so should i include nightly grfcodec/nforenum in my stack update then?
09:48:45  <planetmaker> yes... or lobby with Rubidium to make a release there, too :-)
09:49:02  <heffer> i was using nforenum 4.0.0 and grfcodec 1.0.0
09:49:15  <planetmaker> yes. Since then OpenTTD got new GUI sprites.
09:49:34  <planetmaker> which needs an update to nforenum to not warn about additional sprites
09:49:59  <planetmaker> which in turn OpenGFX supplies :-)
09:50:05  <heffer> okay. i'll keep that in mind :)
09:51:04  <planetmaker> might be that nforenum and grfcodec will get a joint release as one set of tools... see
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09:51:27  <Wolf01> hello
09:55:14  <heffer> openttd sdk :)
09:57:38  <planetmaker> :-) as both are not really needed for OpenTTD development it would not really be an sdk for OpenTTD. Maybe for NewGRFs. But there I still hope for the yet-not-released NML to become the new standard ;-)
09:59:04  * andythenorth considers adding an industry to process metal from forge in early games
09:59:06  <andythenorth> :P
10:00:08  <planetmaker> called blacksmith? ;-)
10:00:14  <andythenorth> maybe
10:00:33  * andythenorth considers having some forges produce goods and ENSP, and other produce building materials and FMSP
10:00:54  <planetmaker> hm... random varaction2?
10:01:25  <andythenorth> it can be done on industry creation
10:01:26  <andythenorth> every time it's discussed, we agree it would be annoying
10:02:00  <planetmaker> probably
10:02:12  <planetmaker> then the minimap would become useless
10:02:34  <andythenorth> might trouble the cargo chain gui as well
10:02:41  <planetmaker> or loose much of its value except 'there's an industry. No idea what it does, though'
10:03:00  <planetmaker> and you don't want to annoy Alberth ? ;-)
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10:04:55  * andythenorth wonders where to get spades from in 1600
10:05:02  <andythenorth> not that I actually want to play in 1600
10:06:46  <planetmaker> 'openttd is a train game. carriages have no place there' :-P
10:10:23  <andythenorth> currently I'm not sure where FIRS players would get their shovels for digging :P
10:10:36  <andythenorth> oh well
10:14:49  <planetmaker> blacksmith provides tools, too, does he?
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10:21:52  <andythenorth> planetmaker: blacksmith provides FMSP and goods currently
10:22:33  <andythenorth> could change goods to ENSP
10:23:01  <planetmaker> hm. No
10:23:13  <planetmaker> except if there's a lack of goods
10:23:15  <uros> hi , can someone know why i have all original trains and cariages duplicated? .. i used 8 Japam GRF-s  (town names, trees, building set, landscape, meglev set, signals, stations and train set) ?
10:23:32  <planetmaker> yes, you probably added and removed newgrfs on a running game
10:23:37  <planetmaker> and ignored the red warning box
10:23:49  <uros> how i can fix this ?
10:23:54  <planetmaker> start a new game
10:24:15  <planetmaker> and chose the grfs you want to use _before_ creating the map
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10:24:26  <uros> i aha
10:24:28  <uros> ok thanx
10:25:07  <planetmaker> you *could* try to call 'reset_engines' in the console
10:25:10  <planetmaker> maybe that helps
10:25:12  <planetmaker> maybe not
10:25:49  <andythenorth> planetmaker: goods are available from glass works for all dates
10:25:58  <andythenorth> and from paper mill
10:26:01  <planetmaker> good enough
10:26:02  <andythenorth> and (if added) from pottery
10:26:12  <planetmaker> no need for more goods
10:26:27  <planetmaker> and someone has to produce ploughs and hay forks and hammers and ...
10:26:52  <planetmaker> besides I like much agriculture ;-)
10:27:07  <planetmaker> Might be that I'm influenced by my family's heredity, though
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10:33:11  <fjb> Moin
10:35:56  <Rubidium> moi
10:37:41  <planetmaker> moin Rubidium , fjb
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10:38:54  <__ln__> does anyone have a Kindle?
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10:53:00  <fjb> Surely anyone does. :-)
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11:17:13  <heffer> planetmaker: didn't know you were german, too :D
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11:23:38  <planetmaker> :)
11:24:15  <Powerek38> hi!  my OpenTTD just after a few years of gameplay is getting much slower than the rest of my computer, even the mouse gets slower to move
11:24:47  <planetmaker> Powerek38: do you have many vehicles? NewGRFs?
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11:25:04  <planetmaker> many boats and few buoys?
11:25:15  <Alberth> AIs?
11:25:33  <Powerek38> planetmaker: yeah, I have quite a lot newGRF, but no boats and not much vehicles as it's just 1923 in the game and I started in 1920
11:27:18  <planetmaker> Powerek38: depending upon the newgrf they can eat quite a bit CPU under certain conditions. Especially if you have the ECS vectors and HUGE maps (>1000x1000)
11:28:04  <Powerek38> oh, that may be the problem, I do use ECS and my map is like 1024 x 2048
11:28:31  <Powerek38> ok, I'll turnoff the ECS, I hope this helps
11:28:35  <planetmaker> maybe you can post your savegame?
11:28:43  <planetmaker> but don't turn of ECS in your game. You'll ruin it
11:28:56  <Powerek38> planetmaker: no, I meant I'll run a new game without it
11:29:11  <planetmaker> try FIRS :-)
11:29:38  <Alberth> Powerek38: 1024x2048 looks big for single player
11:30:16  <planetmaker> ^ yes :-)
11:30:51  <Powerek38> ok, so I'll run a new game with no ECS and not bigger than 1024x1024. I hope this helps
11:30:58  <Powerek38> thanks for your advice :)
11:31:08  <planetmaker> no problem, you're welcome
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11:31:20  <planetmaker> From our servers I just know...
11:31:27  <planetmaker> nvm obviously ;-)
11:31:32  <Alberth> :)
11:31:48  <Alberth> too addicted, obviously
11:31:52  <planetmaker> :-D
11:32:15  <planetmaker> he could test it on our current stable server... 1900 and FIRS
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11:50:57  <Chris_Booth> wow I have a massive hangover
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12:12:37  <Ammler> for sp, a 256er map is already big enough :-)
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12:22:42  <avdg1> hi
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12:48:23  <fjb> 1900 and FIRS? Should I consinder joining the server?
12:50:05  <planetmaker> fjb: why not? :-) It's 'only' FIRS 0.3 as it's a stable version. But still...
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13:06:00  <fjb> Do spectators get kicked or is my connection not stable enough?
13:12:14  <planetmaker> it's your connection
13:12:26  <planetmaker> I'm fine with watching and I don't have priviliges there
13:15:34  <robotboy> hello
13:15:53  * robotboy ponders going looking for a win32s api list
13:16:20  <__ln__> you want to run openttd on windows 3.11 for some specific reason?
13:16:58  <robotboy> no. I thought it's be interesting to see if OpenTTD could run under that platform without using the DOS version
13:27:08  <fjb> Does really anybody still use Windows 3?
13:28:11  <robotboy> Qantas was until a hyear or so ago for their in-flight entertainment systems. There were a few other airlines using it as well
13:28:24  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a windows 3.11 installation in dosbox
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13:29:05  <LaSeandre> sorry, what OS are we discussing here? Early Windows?
13:29:54  <__ln__> Vista -5
13:31:23  <LaSeandre> That's 2000, if we're being strict?
13:31:48  <__ln__> we aren't being strict
13:32:31  <LaSeandre> ah, but are we going back through the NT line or the DOS line?
13:33:04  <LaSeandre> oh, 95?
13:33:53  <robotboy> no 3.11 with Win32s
13:34:31  <LaSeandre> oh.
13:34:34  <LaSeandre> never used it.
13:36:12  * robotboy wonders if it is the threading that fails
13:36:18  * robotboy suspects not
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13:39:53  <robotboy> finding out why it fails would require an ancient sdk
13:40:38  <Eddi|zuHause> you can compile without threads
13:41:14  <robotboy> can I compile for Win9x using Visual Studio?
13:42:19  <robotboy> + without threads?
13:48:31  <Rubidium> IIRC you can't
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13:51:02  <glx> indeed you can't
13:52:06  <glx> but with mingw you should be able to disable threads
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13:54:39  <robotboy> ok
13:55:05  <robotboy> if I ever get mingw setup, I will try it
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14:17:00  <andythenorth> frosch123: I'm trying to see if I can patch for
14:17:33  <andythenorth> so the first instance of CheckIfCallBackAllowsAvailability should also check that industry is being generated by game, not player
14:17:49  <andythenorth> then CheckIfCallBackAllowsAvailability needs to be called again in both prospecting and none-prospecting loops?
14:18:51  <frosch123> there is a loop in CmdBuildIndustry when manually placing industries
14:18:58  <frosch123> currently it only does the tilechecks
14:19:26  <frosch123> make sure to also call the other checks there
14:19:38  <frosch123> you do not need to change the prospecting case though
14:23:45  <andythenorth> prospecting handles trying multiple layouts for itself?  Or it will just fail and user won't know that it was because a layout wasn't available?
14:24:55  <frosch123> RandomRange(indspec->num_table) <- it tries all layouts
14:25:46  <frosch123> though if a lot of layouts fail, and the remaining layouts are hard to place, there is an increased chance that 5000 tries do not result in a suitable place
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14:29:02  * andythenorth ponders
14:31:17  <andythenorth> while loops scare me
14:32:50  <azaghal> while (0) scare(andythenorth);
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14:33:43  <frosch123> won't scare you a lot :p
14:33:48  <frosch123> *that
14:35:01  <andythenorth> I wish I could see properly in code
14:35:16  <andythenorth> :P
14:35:39  <andythenorth> no-one gets born knowing how to code, but some get born with more ability to learn than others
14:35:44  <andythenorth> I am 'others'
14:37:51  <frosch123> I am lazy
14:38:24  <andythenorth> frosch123: I suppose it's dumb to move the cb28 handling inside CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree ?
14:38:45  <andythenorth> it seems inappropriate....but I can see how it would work
14:39:47  <frosch123> create a new fucntion, and move CheckIfIndustryTilesAreFree + CheckIfCallBackAllowsCreation into it
14:39:56  <frosch123> then call that one from CreateNewIndustryHelper and the loop
14:40:37  <andythenorth> ok, that's a project for later today
14:40:55  <andythenorth> I'm going climbing :)
14:41:34  <frosch123> considering the clock that sounds like in-door :)
14:41:42  <andythenorth> yup
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15:27:37  <__ln__>
15:29:10  <SmatZ> hehe :)
15:33:07  <SpComb> how melodramatic
15:33:33  *** Fast2 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
15:33:49  <SmatZ> is __ln__ one of those "eka" guys? :p
15:35:20  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
15:36:59  <fonsinchen> I have a method in a class which shall be inlined and it's 4 lines long. Shall I
15:37:04  <fonsinchen> a, not inline it
15:37:12  <fonsinchen> b, put the definition in the header
15:37:22  <fonsinchen> c, put the definition in the class body
15:37:24  <fonsinchen> ?
15:37:58  <fonsinchen> I mean, with regards to coding style.
15:38:43  <frosch123> either b or a+c
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15:39:20  <SmatZ> "shall be inlined" doesn't work with "a"
15:40:20  <frosch123> nor with "c", does it? (except within the build unit)
15:40:56  <SmatZ> true, you would have to have class body in the header :)
15:41:10  <fonsinchen> the class body is in the header ...
15:41:32  <SmatZ> err...
15:41:40  <SmatZ> yeah, sorry :)
15:41:51  <fonsinchen> like "class Path { ... };"
15:41:53  <SmatZ> I think it's nicer to have definition in class body
15:42:52  <SmatZ> eg. not what is in widget_type.h
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15:43:23  <fonsinchen> yes, shorter and less confusing. Contradicting to coding style, though:
15:43:28  <fonsinchen> "Very short methods can have one-line definition (if defined in the class scope)."
15:43:43  <roboboy> gnight/gmorning
15:44:24  <frosch123> [17:42] <SmatZ> eg. not what is in widget_type.h <- assuming you mean window_gui.h, i would not consider it to match coding style either :)
15:45:23  <SmatZ> frosch123: actually, both files have that "problem" at some places :)
15:45:36  <fonsinchen> in widget_type.h you have b, and c, ... and for the one-liners you use b, while for the longer SetPadding() you use c, ...
15:46:07  <frosch123> hmm, yeah, somehow i opened the wrong file :)
15:46:35  <SmatZ> fonsinchen: it seems to depend on who coded that part of code :)
15:46:55  <fonsinchen> OK, I'll put it in the class body.
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15:52:52  <Alberth> maybe I should reconsider becoming an OpenTTD dev :p
15:54:55  <frosch123> yeah, they are pretty annoying, you really do not want to be part of them :p
15:55:54  * avdg should really consider to program c++ and read a lot of mac api's
15:56:36  <frosch123> i thought the point of that is to learn objc++
15:56:58  <glx> objC
15:57:32  <Rubidium> glx: nah, objective-C++ is way better
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16:10:40  <dihedral> hello
16:18:31  <Chris_Booth> hi dihedral
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16:36:30  <Andel> !lins
16:36:33  <Andel> !links
16:36:34  *** Andel was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #tycoon.]
16:36:41  *** Andel [] has joined #openttd
16:37:19  <Andel> My mistake DorpsGek but is there really a need to kick me?
16:37:54  <__ln__> he's just following his orders
16:38:00  <dihedral> :-P
16:38:18  <Andel> he could have told me instead...
16:38:33  <Andel> ahhh - it's truebrain
16:39:16  <TrueBrain> euh, what?
16:39:24  <TrueBrain> don't highlight me :(
16:39:35  <Andel> hmm - DorpsGek flaged as you
16:39:45  <SmatZ> Andel: glx has script that sayd DorpsGek to kick whoever says "!*"
16:39:45  <dihedral> so?
16:39:47  <TrueBrain> that DorpsGek runs on my account means little
16:39:50  <Andel> ahhh right
16:39:56  <SmatZ> *says
16:40:03  <TrueBrain> either way, is the kick needed: yes
16:40:07  <SmatZ> :)
16:40:08  <dihedral> :-P
16:40:11  <TrueBrain> there wre some people in here who never learnt otherwise
16:40:22  <dihedral> still works i think :-P
16:40:29  <Andel> hmmm - and those of us who wanted to know the link for downloading?
16:40:32  <TrueBrain> and if you are not such person, glx will have no problem appoligizing ;) But most don't learn so kick :D
16:41:31  <Andel> perhaps an anomoloy of 3 !questions before kicking?
16:41:42  <TrueBrain> too much effort, too little gain
16:41:49  <TrueBrain> no bot in here reacts on !, so :)
16:42:10  <SmatZ> Andel: don't be ashamed, nobody is safe :)
16:42:13  <dihedral> TrueBrain, incorrect - at least one bot reacts to ! :-P
16:42:13  <SmatZ> !password
16:42:13  *** SmatZ was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.]
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16:42:17  <SmatZ> see?
16:42:18  <dihedral> just not in the desired sense :-D
16:42:23  <TrueBrain> dihedral: it is no bot :)
16:42:32  <dihedral> well - kinda
16:42:43  <dihedral> it's a automated process scripted into an irc client
16:42:43  <TrueBrain> 1 script does not make a bot
16:42:45  <olleman> feels good man yes/no?
16:43:04  <olleman> I have a magic
16:43:08  <olleman> yeah, that's SO 2009
16:43:40  <dihedral> TrueBrain, as of when does it count as a bot? :-P
16:43:53  <Andel> hmmm
16:43:56  <TrueBrain> 2 or more? :p No, in my opinion when it is dedicated to it
16:43:59  <Andel> i'm gonna go play some openttd
16:44:09  <dihedral> good point
16:44:17  <SmatZ> :)
16:44:23  <dihedral> :-D
16:44:27  <Rubidium>
16:44:36  <Rubidium>
16:44:40  <Rubidium>
16:44:46  <Rubidium>
16:44:46  <TrueBrain> SPAM!
16:44:48  <TrueBrain> :D
16:44:49  <SmatZ> hmm topic misses "binaries."
16:44:57  <TrueBrain> SmatZ: binaries. is no website really
16:45:02  <Rubidium> SmatZ: binaries isn't that useful for users
16:45:06  <TrueBrain> all are linked via
16:45:06  <SmatZ> ok :)
16:45:22  <TrueBrain> (where most people also find the download link *hint* Andel *hint* :D :D )
16:45:51  <glx> a big green button on the official www is enough anyway :)
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16:45:53  <dihedral> not sure he was looking for the link
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16:46:03  <SmatZ> yeah, the page is better :)
16:46:09  <TrueBrain> dihedral: [18:40] <Andel> hmmm - and those of us who wanted to know the link for downloading?
16:46:17  <dihedral> oh
16:46:20  <dihedral> shame
16:46:38  <dihedral> well, there are some who use a !download command in #openttdcoop
16:46:47  <dihedral> and then just click a link
16:46:52  <dihedral> heck - they'd trust any source
16:46:57  * dihedral evil-grins
16:47:02  <SmatZ> [17:52:58] <Alberth> maybe I should reconsider becoming an OpenTTD dev :p <== what happened? :(
16:47:02  <TrueBrain> we are not such community :D
16:47:06  <glx> my script "redirects" to #openttdcoop ;)
16:47:36  <SmatZ> glx: it wasn't your script then?
16:47:54  <dihedral> SmatZ, his script 'mentions' #openttdcoop when kicking ;-)
16:48:05  <TrueBrain> [18:36] *** Andel has been kicked from the channel by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #tycoon.).
16:48:07  <TrueBrain> logs don't lie
16:48:17  <SmatZ> it can mention #tycoon for !links :)
16:48:31  <TrueBrain> so glx lied! :D
16:48:45  <dihedral> * DorpsGek has kicked SmatZ from #openttd (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.) <- NOPE
16:48:46  <glx> well there are 2 options depending on the !command
16:48:52  <SmatZ> probably it was me, who lied
16:48:54  <TrueBrain> :D
16:48:56  <SmatZ> :)
16:48:57  <SmatZ> hehe
16:49:08  <TrueBrain> what a lovely useless conversation :)
16:50:28  <glx> regexp("!(links)") { <-- #tycoon
16:50:28  <glx> regexp("!(clients|dl|download|grf|help|info|ip|osai|password|playercount|players|rcon|revision|version|wiki)") { <-- #openttdcoop
16:50:40  <TrueBrain> !bubba
16:50:42  <TrueBrain> :D
16:50:53  <TrueBrain> @kick TrueBrain act normal
16:50:53  *** TrueBrain was kicked from #openttd by DorpsGek [act normal]
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16:51:07  <glx> probably impossible ;)
16:51:15  * SmatZ wonders what !osai should do
16:51:23  <glx> dunno
16:51:25  <SmatZ> :)
16:51:34  <TrueBrain> join #openttdcoop and try ;)
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16:55:15  <dihedral> why not kick !~ m/links/  with redirect to #openttdcoop?
16:56:21  <glx> because I do what I want :)
17:01:09  * SpComb hugs CIA-2
17:01:09  * CIA-2 hugs SpComb
17:03:41  * andythenorth is done climbing, and types with tired chalky fingers :P
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17:27:09  <SpComb> "I don't want to use one-way path signals as their constant red light is depressing"
17:27:54  <b_jonas> change the images
17:30:11  <Eddi|zuHause> use semaphores :)
17:30:25  <b_jonas> lol
17:30:44  <Rubidium> replace the signal sprites with happy smiles
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17:42:52  * andythenorth needs to learn how to declare a function in C++ :P
17:43:27  <Alberth> like a definition, except ; instead of  { ... } at the end
17:43:51  <Eddi|zuHause> type name(type1 param1, type2 param2);
17:44:38  <Eddi|zuHause> probably ; instead of ,
17:44:54  <Eddi|zuHause> no matter which way round i write it, it's always wrong for that language :p
17:45:40  <glx> type name(type1, type2); should work too, but not recommended
17:46:02  <SpComb> default argument values!
17:46:23  <glx> ha it's a C thing only then
17:47:18  <Eddi|zuHause> i have a hard time imagining this to work properly...
17:47:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i mean there's an ambiguity of whether it's a type name, or a param name with implicit int type
17:48:03  <SmatZ> glx: should work in C++ roo
17:48:04  <SmatZ> too
17:48:20  <SmatZ> name (param1, param2); is C-only
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17:49:20  <glx> WINBASEAPI HANDLE WINAPI CreateMutexA(LPSECURITY_ATTRIBUTES,BOOL,LPCSTR); <-- indeed it works, though it's in extern "C" {}
17:49:33  <glx> (mingw w32api)
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17:53:16  <__ln__> that's type name(type1,type2); isn't it
17:53:52  * andythenorth googles
17:55:28  <andythenorth> my method of learning C++ by guessing doesn't work
17:55:28  <Eddi|zuHause> so it's either "name(param1,param2)" or "type name(type1, type2)"?
17:55:56  <Eddi|zuHause> now i understand what's so difficult about syntactical analysis of C++ ;)
17:56:20  <Hirundo> omitting the return type is C-only (default-int)
17:56:58  <frosch123> nothing is as frightening as the ancient int name(bla1, bla2) int bla1, bla2; {..}
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17:57:18  <frosch123> not sure though whether i got it right
17:57:26  <glx> yes, luckily I never used this syntax
17:58:05  <Alberth> frosch123: looks ok, except a real programmer would not type the first "int" as it is implied :)
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17:59:05  <thastig> hi, is anyone here?
17:59:14  <Hirundo> Real programmers use 1-letter variable names to maximize the information entropy per character
17:59:16  <dihedral> nah
17:59:32  <dihedral> Hirundo, lol
17:59:36  <Rubidium> Hirundo: and it makes you application smaller as well
17:59:48  <thastig> where would one go around looking to help with translation?
18:00:23  <dihedral> totally depends on what you need :-P
18:00:24  <Hirundo> type 'translate openttd' in google?
18:00:30  <thastig> -.-
18:00:38  <dihedral> Hirundo, but can you go there?
18:00:44  <thastig> i meant i wanna be an editor so i can translate my language
18:01:13  <andythenorth> real programmers don't use 1 letter variable names
18:01:25  <Hirundo> _ and __ are better, indeed
18:01:27  <andythenorth> they write a minify processors to do that
18:01:38  <Rubidium> thastig: what language would you translate to?
18:01:46  <thastig> Urdu
18:01:47  <planetmaker> thastig: did you try :-)
18:01:53  <Rubidium> in any case: :)
18:01:59  <thastig> of course i did dammit >.<
18:02:08  <thastig> i logged in, registered, i need to be an editor to make changes
18:02:21  <thastig> enough with the shitty advice please
18:02:31  <Rubidium> question #3 in the FAQ :)
18:02:56  <dihedral> that little piece of attitude actually made me smirk
18:03:03  <Rubidium> oh, you already sent an email :)
18:03:12  * dihedral chuckles
18:03:22  <thastig> yep, i think i have done everything then
18:03:30  <thastig> must wait for a mail back now i guess
18:03:32  <Rubidium> yes, the emails are handled manually
18:03:34  * andythenorth has to learn difference between static and void types
18:03:37  <andythenorth> new to me
18:04:16  <andythenorth> woah.  I have to declare the type the function returns?  What crazy world is this :o
18:04:16  <thastig> i follow this project on and off every 6-10 months
18:04:32  <thastig> is there any major updates to the game or is it all little performance tweaks in every release?
18:05:10  <dihedral> andythenorth, what crazy world do you come frome?
18:05:12  <Rubidium> lots of new features every major release, then bugfixes in each minor release
18:05:13  <dihedral> *from
18:05:22  <andythenorth> dihedral: python of course
18:05:34  <dihedral> of course! how could i ask!
18:05:38  <dihedral> so ... obvious!
18:05:39  <andythenorth> :P
18:05:46  *** Mucht [] has joined #openttd
18:05:51  <thastig> hmm, i just got a new laptop and cant wait to try the game again. my previous laptop used to overheat and burn my crotch
18:05:53  <dihedral> well, yes, you need to define the type that is returned
18:06:00  <andythenorth> dihedral: I don't care for your shitty advice
18:06:10  <Rubidium> thastig: there should be a mail on its way, although you should be able to translate now (maybe you'd to relogin though)
18:06:23  <dihedral> thastig, the term 'laptop' is no longer meant literally
18:06:46  * andythenorth avoids trying to understand and just reads the instructions
18:06:53  <thastig> lol yeah thanks for that Rubidium, im gonna afk and start working
18:06:54  <andythenorth> no types in nfo :P
18:07:03  <dihedral> andythenorth, thanks, i'll take that as a compliment.
18:07:10  <andythenorth> :D
18:07:13  <dihedral> ;-)
18:07:49  *** elho [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
18:08:43  <dihedral> the magic in php "lets" you not define types too
18:09:26  *** Vitus [] has joined #openttd
18:09:27  *** perk11 [~perk11@] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier.]
18:09:44  <andythenorth> and in javascript to some extent, although it will probably blow up
18:09:51  <dihedral> ^^
18:09:58  <andythenorth> but blowing up is standard operating procedure for js
18:10:00  <dihedral> tcl has types
18:10:22  <dihedral> and only one type that needs 'declaring'
18:10:45  * andythenorth lives in a world of duck typing
18:10:45  <dihedral> the other of the 2 types is a given, as appart from arrays, everything is a string
18:12:03  <thastig> hey, can anyone help me with the basics of the translating interface. which parts do i clicky and change...and is there a certain way to do it etc?.
18:12:28  <thastig> just need a lil push to get started :)
18:12:30  * Rubidium is off for some dinner or something :)
18:13:05  * andythenorth tries to remember programming
18:13:17  <dihedral> thastig, there is a dropdown with which you can select 'all', 'in need of confirmation', 'recently changed', uncommitted', and 'not translated'
18:13:20  <andythenorth> nfo is not programming
18:13:21  <Yexo> thastig: if you just want to translate everything and don't care which parts you translate first: go to the edit tab
18:13:31  *** elho [] has joined #openttd
18:13:36  <dihedral> (watch out for a notice bar, it may appear if one of those
18:13:39  <dihedral> lists is empty)
18:13:40  <Yexo> select "Untranslated strings" in the dropdown
18:13:54  <dihedral> searching is done on basis of the selected list
18:14:29  <dihedral> you are able to look at other translations (iirc) but cannot edit them, so perhaps that might also be a good hint ;-)
18:15:14  <thastig> i can edit them now
18:15:25  <dihedral> try to be consistent, i.e. with the translation you chose for 'waypoint' or 'drive through road stop
18:15:27  <thastig> like this is confusing me
18:15:29  <thastig> {COMMA} bag{P "" s} of valuables
18:16:12  <dihedral> P stands for plural, "" means, the singular has nothing to append to the word 'bag', and for Plural add an "s"
18:16:27  <dihedral> i.e. 1 bag of valuables
18:16:33  <dihedral> 2 bas<- that s
18:16:35  * andythenorth tries to understand why CommandCost is declared by so many functions in industry_cmd.cpp
18:16:36  <dihedral> eh
18:16:37  <dihedral> bags
18:17:03  <dihedral> andythenorth, every cmd has to return command cost, as they are called automatically depending on the CMD type sent in the network packet
18:17:19  <dihedral> and that is the value expected, probably to be deducted from the company
18:17:21  <andythenorth> so I have to declare it
18:17:32  *** orudge` [] has quit [Quit: Goodbye.]
18:17:42  <dihedral> as a return value, yes
18:17:51  <thastig> ooh, i get it..
18:17:54  <thastig> *goes to ponder some more
18:18:03  <dihedral> andythenorth, check some command that does not cost anything, i.e. CMD_COMPANY_RENAME
18:18:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: commandcost is used to sum up all costs or error codes during execution
18:18:43  <frosch123> i.e. it is not only cost, but also success/failure
18:19:05  <dihedral> CmdRenameCompany in company_cmd.cpp
18:19:14  <dihedral> return CommandCost();
18:19:40  <dihedral> or: return CMD_ERROR;
18:20:09  <andythenorth> ok so a new function related to building industry will need to return CommandCost
18:20:12  <andythenorth> makes sense
18:20:41  <thastig> and what does the "Mark" button do in translations?
18:20:50  <dihedral> but do not listen to me, as i give shitty advice which you do not care for anyway ;-)
18:21:10  <frosch123> thastig: there is a category "strings needing validation"
18:21:11  <thastig> indeed <_<
18:21:12  <dihedral> thastig, Marking a translation so that you or someone else can have a look at it later on
18:21:20  <thastig> ooh oki
18:21:22  <Yexo> that depends, do you also need to return an error message from that function or not? If no, a bool would suffice as return value
18:21:35  <andythenorth> Yexo: I have no idea yet :)
18:21:39  <thastig> i think im all set now. im gonna shift to all strings and fix, write em
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18:37:37  <thastig> what do i do if the string does not match the the translation
18:37:58  <thastig> like it says Cotton Candy in the string but Candyfloss in the Original
18:39:33  <dihedral> cotton candy is used in toyland only ^^
18:40:04  <thastig> soo do i change the Candyfloss to Cotton Candy and then translate it?
18:40:21  <dihedral> you cannot translate origianl string
18:40:22  <thastig> or do i just translate candyfloss
18:40:26  <dihedral> you translate FROM original
18:40:32  <thastig> kk
18:40:55  <frosch123> shouldn't you end up with the same when translating them?
18:41:22  <thastig> it was a tricky one as there is no such thing as a candy floss or cotton candy in the urdu language
18:41:42  <frosch123> lucky you :)
18:41:53  <planetmaker> thastig: if there's no literal translation, translate it as good as possible. Something which fits
18:42:27  <planetmaker> If you translate something like 'cotton candy' to 'schocolate bars' it will do, too - if it makes sense ;-)
18:42:33  <planetmaker> s/sch/ch/
18:42:41  <SpComb> those pink fluffy things
18:43:10  <thastig> well we normally use letters and words which sound exactly like the english word if its not in our language
18:44:34  *** JVassie [~James@] has joined #openttd
18:45:46  <planetmaker> hm... shouldn't you give your players rather an idea what it is by the name than a translation which *sounds* the same but has no meaning?
18:46:42  <thastig> we're a lazy bunch. instead of making up new words we just use the foreign word but write it with our letters
18:47:40  <planetmaker> that's certainly ok. If the average urdu speaking person then knows what it means
18:49:02  <Eddi|zuHause> {COMMA} means it has an additional parameter which should be displayed as a thousand-separated number
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18:54:38  <andythenorth> thastig: are you the stig?
18:55:54  * andythenorth is confused
18:56:08  <thastig> of course i am
18:57:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: cb28 should have no effect if I comment this (and following 2 lines)? (_game_mode != GM_EDITOR && !CheckIfCallBackAllowsAvailability(it, IACT_USERCREATION)) {
18:57:59  <andythenorth> the stig (allegedly) lives round the corner from my old flat
18:58:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: that is not cb28, but 22 or so
18:58:50  <SpComb> کوتوں کنڈے
18:58:56  <andythenorth> doh
18:58:59  <andythenorth> thanks
18:59:38  * andythenorth chalks up one more victory for the 'first try and break it to understand it' method of coding
19:00:09  <andythenorth> I could have stared at something for ages thinking "why doesn't it work"
19:00:20  <andythenorth> much more fun to say "why isn't it broken when it should be" :P
19:00:30  <frosch123> :p
19:01:22  * andythenorth wonders where cb28 is checked
19:01:39  <andythenorth> CheckIfIndustryIsAllowed?
19:01:48  <frosch123> CheckIfCallBackAllowsCreation
19:01:51  <andythenorth> no
19:01:58  <andythenorth> ah thanks
19:03:36  <thastig> ohai
19:04:06  <thastig> now pay attention
19:04:10  <thastig> singular :   مسافر
19:04:25  <thastig> plural:    مسافرﻎﻊ
19:04:37  <thastig>  {COMMA} مسافر{P "" ﻎﻊ}
19:04:40  <thastig> amirite?
19:05:32  <frosch123> looks correct
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19:05:43  <frosch123> though it took me some time to understand the question :)
19:06:07  <thastig> this is a lot harder than i imagined
19:07:16  <frosch123> of course  {P مسافر مسافرﻎﻊ} might also work
19:07:51  <thastig> are you positive?
19:08:10  <frosch123> what?
19:08:12  <thastig> so i write every word like that?    {P  plural singular}
19:08:29  <frosch123> no, {P singular plural}
19:08:52  <thastig> i wish my language was left to right -.-
19:08:53  <frosch123> but with rtl it might be displayed {P plural singular} :)
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19:08:56  <Rubidium> only when there's {COMMA} or {NUM} in the string
19:10:37  <frosch123> thastig: there are languages with 5 plural forms :)
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19:13:52  <thastig> >.<
19:14:26  <thastig> {WEIGHT}  shows up as   45kg or sumething like that right?
19:14:44  <thastig> 45kg of Wood etc.
19:14:57  <frosch123> yes, though likely tons, not kg :)
19:15:07  <thastig> true
19:15:12  <thastig> Urdu is a mess <.<
19:15:29  <thastig> i gotta check everything thats already been done too
19:18:08  <andythenorth> brrr
19:18:42  <andythenorth> I won't be fixing this tonight
19:19:04  <andythenorth> is starting with a pencil the best way to understand industry code?
19:19:19  <andythenorth> i.e. writing out all the functions and vars, and what's in scope where?
19:19:48  <andythenorth> I can't seem to hold it in my head
19:22:42  <Alberth> write doxygen comments, and read the generated documentation?
19:23:21  <andythenorth> :)
19:24:26  <andythenorth> I can more or less understand the industry code in each function :)
19:24:45  <andythenorth> it's what's calling what when and with what vars that I can't keep track of
19:26:50  <andythenorth> for example, what is this declaring, and what's the scope of it?  IndustryType it = GB(p1, 0, 8);
19:27:43  <frosch123> when commands are send over the network they usually just get a tile and two 32bit ints as data
19:27:51  <frosch123> so everything needs stuffing into those two p1 and p2
19:28:06  <Alberth> it creates a new varible 'it', assigns a value. Scope of 'it' is until the closing }
19:28:24  <andythenorth> IndustryType?
19:28:29  <thastig> k 81 strings checked. now to download the game and actually play it after months of hiatus :o
19:29:09  <Alberth> type of 'it' (a number 0 .. NUM_INDUSTRYTYPES-1)
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19:29:58  <andythenorth> ah
19:30:28  <Alberth> there are sort of standard names for standard things, '*i' for Industry struct, it for IndustryType
19:30:41  <dihedral> c for company
19:30:41  <andythenorth> so this fetches some kind of data type holding industry props?  	const IndustrySpec *indspec = GetIndustrySpec(it);
19:30:47  <dihedral> p for packet
19:31:02  <dihedral> andythenorth, what kind of editor are you using?
19:31:09  <andythenorth> Xcode
19:31:18  <Alberth> yep, IndustrySpec struct describes the IndustryType
19:32:26  <dihedral> there might be a menu item (linked to a hot key) that will take you to the definition of a variable / function / class / method /enum. ...
19:33:15  <andythenorth> dihedral: there is
19:33:27  <andythenorth> I think I need C / C++ for dummies first though ;)
19:33:59  <dihedral> nah ;-)
19:36:16  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> i.e. writing out all the functions and vars, and what's in scope where? <-- you might want to get your IDE to print a call graph
19:36:30  <andythenorth> functions seem (to me) to pass an insane amount of parameters :)
19:36:56  <Alberth> Command functions usually do yeah :)
19:37:15  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a system behind it
19:37:23  <Eddi|zuHause> it gets easier once you understand that ;)
19:37:24  <frosch123> they industry building functions only do since someone requested to be able to access ceratin stuff in those callbacks
19:38:13  <frosch123> thought it might be easier at some point to stuff everything into a struct
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19:39:06  <LunarWolf> needs a tool to encode that I embed graphics in the game and check
19:39:33  <frosch123> what?
19:39:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you what?
19:39:53  <frosch123> btw. i have not seen bennythenoob lately
19:41:38  <Alberth> LunarWolf: for what graphics?
19:42:18  * Alberth considers recommending NML as tool
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19:43:53  <frosch123> hehe, but iirc the request to access the randombits was from ge*rge or so
19:43:54  <LunarWolf> coding spirites
19:45:19  <frosch123> what sprites?
19:45:30  <frosch123> gui? vehicles? landscape? industries? houses?
19:45:38  <frosch123> stations? objects?
19:46:07  <frosch123> 8bpp normal zoom? 32bpp extra zoom?
19:46:17  <LunarWolf> 32
19:46:24  <LunarWolf> industries
19:46:32  <frosch123> extra zoom industries?
19:46:40  <LunarWolf> yep
19:46:44  <LunarWolf> extra
19:47:21  <frosch123> you couldn't get an easier projekt to start with?
19:47:51  <frosch123> replacing graphics of default industries? or new industries?
19:49:52  <LunarWolf> Industrial_Stations_Renewal-0.8.0 With someone we do this in an image to 32bpp Extra Zoom
19:50:56  <frosch123> so, extrazoom stations, not industries?
19:51:40  <LunarWolf> stations
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19:52:15  <LunarWolf> I was wrong
19:52:45  <frosch123> ok, do you want to replace the graphics of the original stations? of industrial-stations-renewal-8? or separate new ones?
19:54:06  <LunarWolf> e have two test models to check, but I do not have to encode
19:56:00  <LunarWolf> so want to replace the original, and this applies to all contents of this supplement.
19:57:44  <frosch123> i guess then you only need pngcodec
19:58:01  <LunarWolf> so want to replace the original, and this applies to all contents of this supplement.
19:58:26  <frosch123> you will need to figure out the spritenumbers of the original graphics
19:58:45  <frosch123> either by decoding them using grfcodec or grf2html, or by using the ingame spritealigner and spritepicker
19:59:18  <olleman> oh is the wiki also...
19:59:21  <olleman> rip
19:59:33  <olleman> now that's popular
20:14:55  * andythenorth resumes staring at industry code :)
20:15:20  * avdg goes for another osx patch
20:15:43  <andythenorth> :o
20:16:08  <avdg>
20:16:35  <andythenorth> so if I'm trying to wrap two existing functions (a and b) in another function c, when I call c, I need to supply all the parameters used by a and b
20:16:56  <andythenorth> are parameters a strict list where order matters?
20:20:49  <frosch123> yes
20:22:22  <andythenorth> ok
20:22:35  <andythenorth> so I can see how the function declaration handles what's passed
20:22:53  <andythenorth> assert != some form of unit test?
20:23:32  <frosch123> assert checks whether the term passed to it evaluated to true, and crashes ottd if not :)
20:23:50  <frosch123> so yes, for testing
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20:24:24  <andythenorth> so declaring a new function also means understanding what needs to be asserted?
20:24:51  <frosch123> if you just call other functions you do not need to duplicate their assertions
20:30:04  <Wolf01> 'night
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20:38:19  <frosch123> night
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20:43:56  <andythenorth> good night
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22:09:21  <Terkhen> good night
22:11:58  <Rubidium> good night Terkhen
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22:41:13  <avdg> gn
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23:12:25  <Aali> oh what the hell is this
23:12:48  <Aali> since when do trains consider the back of a one-way PBS to be a valid destination?
23:14:00  <Aali> whenever a train gets lost in my current game it starts bouncing off the back of the nearest signal
23:14:47  <Aali> which pretty much guarantees it will be lost until I manually rescue it
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23:19:52  <GecK> good night
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23:35:04  <V453000> Aali: a feature :D I consider it a bug though
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23:35:51  <V453000>
23:36:46  <V453000> it breaks the game, and by having it you dont actually reach anything reasonable
23:40:20  <Aali> this was done *intentionally*?
23:40:30  <Aali> wow
23:40:51  <Aali> could atleast have made it an option
23:41:01  <Aali> and if I had any say it would default to off
23:42:50  <ccfreak2k> The backside of PBS signals aren't unpassable, and this is intentional behaviour.
23:43:06  <ccfreak2k> Instead, the penalty of going through the back is high as to "discourage" trains from taking that route.
23:43:19  <Aali> one-way PBS
23:43:52  <Aali> and penalties have nothing to do with it
23:43:58  <Aali> since it only affects lost trains
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23:55:10  <Eddi|zuHause> lost trains are an unfixable issue
23:55:33  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why it's a Bad Thing (tm) to try to fix them
23:56:45  <Eddi|zuHause> it will only disturb perfectly valid situations where the behaviour is useful
23:57:14  <Aali> IMO, no train should ever reserv a path to the back of a one-way signal, lost or not
23:57:35  <Aali> the behaviour only affects lost trains
23:58:36  <Aali> so if you consider it "useful" you rely on lost trains finding their way
23:58:48  <Aali> which of course is a bad idea
23:59:47  <Aali> as I see it, the way it is now serves a select few odd situations and breaks everything else whereas the old behaviour was good most of the time

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