Log for #openttd on 7th November 2010:
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08:02:58  <planetmaker> moin
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08:24:56  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: morning
08:25:06  <andythenorth_> do you think FIRS can be built on windows?
08:28:16  <planetmaker> in what sense? Terkhen can do that... but within a VM
08:28:43  <planetmaker> it can also be done with cygwin or mingw. But that might take its time
08:28:57  <andythenorth_> I am trying to help Kogut build it
08:29:04  <andythenorth_> I don't know what platform he uses though
08:29:05  <planetmaker> oi
08:29:19  <planetmaker> tell him to install make and gcc :-)
08:29:56  <planetmaker> and grfcodec, nforenum and md5sum and zip ;-)
08:30:04  <planetmaker> and bash actually
08:34:12  <andythenorth_> :|
08:34:19  <andythenorth_> I forgot all those things
08:35:38  <planetmaker> mingw provides all those basically
08:35:42  <planetmaker> as does msys
08:36:14  <planetmaker> so it's "just" a matter of installing that and of setting up a mingw compile environment
08:40:39  <xiong> Does anyone think there'd be another application for a Perl script that more or less brutally converts all numbers in a file from kilometers to miles?
08:49:59  <__ln__> "It was 1950 and the population was already 200,000." -> "It was 1211,93 and the population was already 124,301."?
08:53:04  <xiong> __ln__, Yes; it's inelegant. Even if I were willing to put in the work, I can't think of a way to parse a random page of text and decide which numbers in it might represent km and which something else. Sorry. You have to choose your input file with some... regard.
08:54:06  <xiong> If I knew I were parsing XML and the XML were properly written, such that the km measures were so identified, it would be different. The only value of my script is that it doesn't disturb text that isn't numbers.
08:55:17  <xiong> I wrote the script for this: ( I can vaguely see a future application in the TTD realm but only barely.
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09:21:13  <Terkhen> good morning
09:21:51  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: it can be built on windows, if all the patches I coded have been applied to it
09:22:12  <Terkhen> I don't remember if they were applied to FIRS or only to the newgrf base project
09:22:39  <planetmaker> I don't know that either anymore ;-)
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09:35:54  <planetmaker> quak Alberth und frosch123 :-)
09:36:12  <frosch123> moin planetmaker, hai alberth
09:36:38  <Alberth> good morning all
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10:17:32  <thefiler> hi guys
10:19:11  <thefiler> stupid question - i've started using open ttd for the first time in a year again. usually within the game you could set your industries cargo production to max or min while playing now with the new version it seems you cant
10:19:25  <andythenorth_> cheat menu
10:19:36  <andythenorth_> ctl-alt-
10:19:37  <andythenorth_> c
10:19:56  <thefiler> thanks ill try quickly
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10:20:57  <thefiler> thanks Andy for the help...
10:26:45  <AveiMil> Helps! <- Line 587, the max_speed says 37. But when I set:
10:26:46  <AveiMil> item(FEAT_AIRCRAFT, SampsonU52, 0)                   { property { cost_factor: 14*param[50]/100; running_cost_factor: 85*param[55]/100; speed: 37; } }
10:27:00  <AveiMil> And load up the .grf in the game, the speed for that aircraft is NOT default
10:29:54  <thefiler> another stupid question, why can one build all other industries close together but you cant do it for banks
10:30:53  <planetmaker> AveiMil: the numbers there are not km/h nor miles/hour or m/s but NFO / OpenTTD internal units
10:31:13  <planetmaker> sometimes, e.g. for wagon weight they equal metric units, sometimes not
10:31:54  <planetmaker> but... what difference do you get with your example?
10:31:58  <Terkhen>
10:32:37  <AveiMil> I did not expect the number to be a real unit. But I expected "37" to be the default in game speed, which is 476 (~) in the game.
10:32:45  <planetmaker> Terkhen: but... in NML giving no units should work as giving the NFO value... so it might still be considered a problem
10:32:47  <AveiMil> But when I do speed: 37 it's like 150~ in the game
10:33:50  <Terkhen> indeed
10:34:09  <planetmaker> AveiMil: that should be a bug in NML
10:34:34  <planetmaker> it might work if you use km/h as units and the proper value. What is the result then?
10:35:14  <AveiMil> I just discoevered through trial and error
10:35:28  <planetmaker> @calc 1/0.279617
10:35:28  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 3.57632046692
10:35:33  <AveiMil> that 474km/h = speed: 131;
10:35:37  <Alberth> thefiler: there are advanced settings for that (economy, it seems)
10:36:04  <AveiMil> strangly enough, there's no difference between speed: 127,128,129,130
10:37:03  <Alberth> looks like it gets divided by 4 somewhere
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10:37:14  <AveiMil> so from 126 the speed was 461
10:37:23  <AveiMil> and no difference until 131 which was 474
10:37:30  <AveiMil> which is the default speed in the game for the SampsonU52
10:38:24  <planetmaker> @calc 1/12.8
10:38:24  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 0.078125
10:40:04  <Alberth> nml does a lot of conversions from 'nice' units to internal data values that have 'weird' ranges
10:40:35  <AveiMil> hmmm
10:40:58  <AveiMil> any way to figure otu the correct speed value for each aircraft then
10:41:03  <AveiMil> without trail and error?
10:41:17  <AveiMil> can you write a script that outputs i?
10:41:21  <AveiMil> it*
10:41:25  <planetmaker> AveiMil: you can try to change nml/nml/
10:41:39  <planetmaker> try to replace the conversion value given there by 0.078125
10:41:54  <planetmaker> I *think* that fixes it...
10:42:51  <Alberth> planetmaker: if you change the source, please add the calculation rather than the magic number
10:42:52  <AveiMil> will that affect other things?
10:43:58  <Alberth> AveiMil: I think not, each entry there is one of the settings you can do, it is a quite 1-to-1 mapping
10:44:42  <planetmaker> hm... that's not the fix I think
10:44:56  <AveiMil> lol, no, that made it worse :)
10:45:00  <planetmaker> it will make it worse ;-) now the plane is 37km/h ;-)
10:45:06  <AveiMil> yes
10:45:07  <AveiMil> hehe
10:45:19  <AveiMil> but tweaking that number fixes it I guess
10:45:25  <planetmaker> 12.8 then
10:45:39  <planetmaker> but... it should accept nfo when no unit is given...
10:46:47  <AveiMil> 12.8 results in compile error
10:46:55  <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 255: Action 0 property too large
10:47:04  <planetmaker> hm
10:47:08  <AveiMil> 12.8x37 = more than 255
10:47:14  <AveiMil> wait
10:48:53  <AveiMil> nvm
10:49:18  <andythenorth_> how much is TE related to friction?
10:49:47  <andythenorth_> quite a lot
10:50:53  <andythenorth_> so for two vehicles with equivalent weight, the one with larger tyres will have higher TE?
10:51:33  <planetmaker> not necessarily
10:51:50  <planetmaker> important is the pressure
10:52:27  <andythenorth_> so a vehicle with central tyre inflation system...
10:52:34  <AveiMil> 'unit_conversion': 1.035456703125
10:52:36  <AveiMil> that's the number
10:52:50  <AveiMil> albeit SLIGHTLY off, maybe because it rounds up or something?
10:53:02  <AveiMil> with speed: 37 I now get ingame speed 487
10:53:03  <planetmaker> so for equivalent weight the larger tyres will actually increase the area with the ground, thus decrease the pressure
10:53:37  <planetmaker> so actually... hm... smaller types should be better ;-)
10:53:50  <AveiMil> 0.279617=128
10:53:50  <AveiMil> X=474
10:53:56  <AveiMil> That's what I did to figure out the number
10:54:08  <planetmaker> but you need of course some area to put the power from the vehicle to the ground... thus...
10:54:11  <planetmaker> difficult ;-)
10:54:17  <AveiMil> ah, 128 is supposed to be 131
10:54:21  <AveiMil> there's my small error
10:55:28  <AveiMil> 'unit_conversion': 1.011743954198473
10:55:36  <AveiMil> there, that number gives me CORRECT in-game speed
10:55:39  <AveiMil> with speed: 37
10:56:09  <planetmaker> AveiMil: unfortunately the bug is not the conversion factor. But it seems the unit detection
10:56:26  <AveiMil> ok, but changing the unit conversion works as a workaround
10:56:33  <planetmaker> changinge the factor breaks conversion for other units, e.g. km/h ;-)
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10:57:42  <AveiMil> seems fine to me?
10:57:50  <AveiMil> both imperial and metric are correct numbers
10:58:52  <planetmaker> hm, yes. AveiMil add as unit 'nfo'
10:59:11  <planetmaker> then 37 works. I'm just trying to find out whether it is as designed :-)
10:59:36  <AveiMil> aye, so I have a good work around
10:59:46  <planetmaker> using 'nfo' is not even a work-around
10:59:54  <AveiMil> I use the 37 because that's what I found off that site
11:00:07  <AveiMil> I'm confused
11:00:11  <AveiMil> what you mean
11:00:18  <planetmaker> openttd's internal units are nfo units
11:00:27  <AveiMil> right, like 37
11:00:37  <AveiMil> (?)
11:00:53  <planetmaker> yes, the plane speed is in nfo plane speed units
11:02:00  * Terkhen wonders why the air drag implementation is considered realistic
11:03:17  <planetmaker> AveiMil: aye. It works as designed
11:03:26  <planetmaker> If you don't specify any units, SI units are assumed
11:03:30  <planetmaker> and 37 m/s is about
11:03:34  <planetmaker> @calc 3.6 * 37
11:03:34  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 133.2
11:03:36  <planetmaker> ^
11:03:40  <planetmaker> km/h
11:04:23  <AveiMil> so I can just use y any units, SI units are assumed
11:04:23  <AveiMil> [12:03] #openttd: <@planetmaker> and 37 m/s is ab
11:04:26  <AveiMil> wtf
11:04:34  <AveiMil> so I can just use 'unit_conversion': 1.011743954198473 then
11:04:58  <planetmaker> eh?
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11:05:15  <planetmaker> NML is working as designed
11:05:32  <planetmaker> If you want to use nfo units you have to specify 'nfo' as unit
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11:05:39  <AveiMil> where?
11:05:46  <planetmaker> if you specify no units, it's assumed you mean the value in SI
11:05:53  <planetmaker> after the speed
11:05:56  <AveiMil> 37nfo?
11:06:11  <planetmaker> speed: 37 nfo;
11:06:15  <planetmaker> yes
11:06:33  <planetmaker> it'd be better readable, if you used 476 km/h ;-)
11:06:55  <planetmaker> but when mimicing default behaviour metric might indeed not be 'best' (whatever that is)
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11:10:38  <AveiMil> Hey guys, I'm trying to play my NewGRF with a friend over MP.
11:10:49  <AveiMil> We both have installed it in the Data folder
11:11:03  <AveiMil> But when he tries to join the gae he gets "newgrf mismatch", ti's the same grf
11:11:52  <AveiMil> Does it have to be installed in a different way?
11:12:04  <planetmaker> it has to be _exactly_ the same newgrf
11:12:09  <planetmaker> you probably have a newer version
11:12:16  <planetmaker> (or older)
11:12:55  <AveiMil> Ehm, nope, I even start a new instance on my own computer, so I have two OpenTTD's running
11:12:59  <AveiMil> and the second one says the same thing
11:13:34  <planetmaker> then those use different data folders with different newgrf versions
11:20:57  <Alberth> run openttd with      openttd -d grf=1         you'll get a dump of where grfs are loaded from
11:21:58  <Alberth> at least 1 looks like it is enough, higher numbers give more output
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11:27:23  <AveiMil> How do you get the prompt window to pause?
11:27:26  <AveiMil> it dissapears
11:29:56  <AveiMil> it probably says taht on my client because the second instance can't load it up as it's already in use
11:29:59  <AveiMil> I'm guessing
11:30:40  <planetmaker> dunno for windows, but I doubt that windows bitches there more than other OS. It works here
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11:33:16  <AveiMil> recompiled and now it works
11:33:18  <AveiMil> dunno wth
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11:37:57  <planetmaker> not updated ;-)
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11:41:46  <AveiMil> How do I clear crashed trains? :)
11:41:59  <Alberth> wait :)
11:42:03  <planetmaker> wait
11:42:13  <planetmaker> slow me :-P
11:42:35  <AveiMil> wait?
11:42:48  <AveiMil> oh just wait
11:42:50  <AveiMil> lol
11:43:21  <Alberth> AveiMil: first open a terminal/command window, then type the openttd command (from my memory: start->run_cmd->'cmd' or 'command' or so)
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11:59:47  <thefiler> is there a way to stop new industries from beginning? so that the only new way is to fund them
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12:01:16  <Alberth> you can set number of industries to none, when generating a game
12:01:31  <Alberth> however, then you don't get any industries
12:01:50  <Alberth> you can also make a scenario with that setting so you have an initial setup
12:01:58  <Rubidium> IIRC there's some NewGRF that stops generating industries
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12:04:38  <Alberth>   this grf. not sure what settings it has
12:05:22  <Alberth> it's called manual industries iirc, you should be able to find more info about it at the forums
12:05:51  <planetmaker> Alberth: the manual industries are also on bananas
12:06:20  <frosch123> only for nightly users
12:06:20  <thefiler> thanks
12:06:20  <planetmaker> our green(?) amphibian developer put it there ;-)
12:06:35  <planetmaker> oh, right... nightly only
12:06:59  <frosch123> saves writing a readme :p
12:07:49  <planetmaker> :-)
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13:32:26  <__ln__>
13:35:20  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r21107 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.cpp pathfinder/yapf/yapf_costrail.hpp): -Fix: Don't use the maximum track speed where the maximum vehicle speed is meant.
13:35:25  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r21106 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.cpp ground_vehicle.hpp roadveh.h train.h): -Change: Tuned realistic acceleration to be a bit more realistic in order to make acceleration "slower", which highlights the differences between vehicle types more.
13:38:08  <frosch123> CIA-2: don't mess with the universe
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13:51:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21108 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Add: Copy the 'editable' flag of the newgrf window to its layout widget.
13:54:12  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21109 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Add: Don't display available newgrfs when the newgrf list is not editable.
13:54:56  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21110 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Add: Tidy up the buttons of the active newgrfs list.
13:55:39  <planetmaker> Add: Remove display real-estate :-P
13:56:24  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21111 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Add: Remove the buttons below the newgrf details if the list is not editable.
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14:32:24  <nicfer> where's the openttd.cfg placed by default in windows 7?
14:33:10  <planetmaker> readme, section 4.2 tells you
14:34:31  <nicfer> there I found it
14:35:14  <AveiMil> Inflation, it increases purchase cost/running cost in addition to income cost per passenger trip etc?
14:35:28  <AveiMil> And does it also affect buldings costs?
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14:41:06  <thefiler> any experts here?
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14:42:20  <thefiler> i cant seem to get this to work :(
14:43:49  <planetmaker> and where does what fail?
14:45:00  <thefiler> well I went to place it where its suppose to be, but I cant get the option to disable new industries from coming up
14:45:52  <thefiler> i've disabled all other grf settings and only have this running... but every time I start a new game or scenario new industries starts up
14:46:24  <thefiler> i cant get this option
14:46:56  <Hirundo> What version of openttd are you running? What grf parameters did you set?
14:48:07  <thefiler> ttd 1.0.4
14:48:16  <planetmaker> that doesn't support the new parameter window
14:48:25  <thefiler> what parameters were i suppose to set
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14:48:49  <planetmaker> the easy parameter window is only present in current nightlies
14:49:41  <thefiler> sorry im really dumb at this. what should i do
14:49:57  * andythenorth_ wonders if the rail Gmund Mog should carry cargo at all
14:50:06  <planetmaker> one of two: a) play a nightly version of OpenTTD or b)forget about using that newgrf
14:50:32  <thefiler> ahh ok ill download the new nightly version
14:50:57  <planetmaker> there's an (older) version of manual industries.... you may find that somewhere, but I don't know where. Grfcrawler might help
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14:53:02  <thefiler> so if I had to download nightly r21102 it should work then?
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14:53:59  <planetmaker> yes
14:54:14  <dih> if you download the nightly you can try it...
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14:54:31  <planetmaker> but mind, you cannot join only servers with the exact same version.
14:55:03  <planetmaker> and savegames are not backward compatible, only forward
14:56:06  <thefiler> thats fine.
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14:57:18  <stinkyfax> morning all
14:58:24  <planetmaker> good evening
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15:00:39  <stinkyfax> can i run open ttd server on linux?
15:00:47  <Markk> Yes
15:01:00  <stinkyfax> mind giving me any relatively easy guide on how to? :)
15:01:26  <planetmaker> ./openttd -D
15:01:35  <planetmaker> easy enough?
15:01:48  <Yexo>
15:01:50  <stinkyfax> :) -D   - dedicated?
15:02:03  <stinkyfax> Yexo: thanks
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15:04:32  <stinkyfax> where can i get linux executables for open ttd?
15:04:59  <Alberth>   download ?
15:05:28  <stinkyfax> oh, thanks
15:05:35  <stinkyfax> though there is only windows
15:05:58  <Hirundo> nope
15:06:29  <Alberth> select something else than 'windows' in the dropdown box
15:07:34  <Alberth> for a server, you may want to use a 'stable'
15:07:54  <planetmaker> testing works fine, too
15:08:09  <planetmaker> nightly... might have very limited audience
15:08:25  <Alberth> but you stand out from the crowd :)
15:09:04  <stinkyfax> when I try to run deb file i get:
15:09:04  <stinkyfax> ./openttd-1.0.4-linux-debian-lenny-amd64.deb: line 1: syntax error near unexpected token `newline'
15:10:02  <kenneth> dpkg -i openttd-1.0.4
15:10:04  <dih> stinkyfax, now that is really funny
15:10:12  <dih> i am somewhat amuzed
15:10:15  <kenneth> dpkg -i openttd-1.0.4-linux-debian-lenny-amd64.deb
15:10:18  <kenneth> stinkyfax
15:10:20  <kenneth> use that command
15:10:22  <stinkyfax> :))
15:10:35  <stinkyfax> i am having linux for 1 month :(
15:10:40  <thefiler> im at a total lost... downloaded install nightly... can modify the parameters of the disable industries, but everytime new stuff starts up
15:10:43  <Alberth> stinkyfax: better yet, learn about your package manager
15:10:43  <kenneth> when i run shutdown -r now my pc reboots
15:11:17  <kenneth> thefiler what platform are you playing on ?
15:11:35  <Alberth> thefiler: settings in the main menu have no influence on loaded games
15:11:49  <thefiler> windows 7
15:12:01  <thefiler> i've tried all possible ways, even scenarios
15:12:15  <kenneth> are you manually editting your config file, or are you doing it within game?
15:12:21  <planetmaker> thefiler: it only works on new games
15:12:35  <kenneth> hello planetmaker
15:12:40  <planetmaker> ho kenneth
15:12:46  <kenneth> got a 1.0.5 server up :D
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15:13:00  <planetmaker> I doubt there's a 1.0.5 yet ;-)
15:13:23  <kenneth> release candidate
15:13:25  <kenneth> i apolagise
15:14:01  <thefiler> i've also tried it on new games
15:14:41  <Yexo> do you have other newgrfs loaded?
15:15:00  <dih> odd - i cannot get linux to run, ./linux-kernel-2.6.32-686.deb
15:15:53  <frosch123> @kick dih weird things happen when i use @kick
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15:16:01  <stinkyfax> why would server require graphics set?
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15:16:06  <dih> :-P
15:16:25  <Alberth> stinkyfax: it contains more than just graphics
15:16:28  <frosch123> :)
15:16:43  <stinkyfax> Alberth: where do i put graphics set?
15:16:57  <Yexo> where readme.txt tells you to put it
15:16:58  <Alberth> stinkyfax: read the readme file
15:17:40  <Alberth> dih: duh, you have to write the file to the first sector of your HD :p
15:17:54  <dih> LOL
15:18:07  <dih> very nice addition, Alberth :-D
15:18:33  <Alberth> don't blame me, I just programmed it :)
15:18:50  <dih> you programmed the kernel? :-D
15:18:59  <stinkyfax> /usr/share/games/openttd# find **/*readme*
15:18:59  <stinkyfax> scripts/readme.txt
15:19:36  <Alberth> that's not how find works
15:19:54  <Alberth> find . -name "readme*" -print
15:20:17  <stinkyfax> aha :) thanks
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15:25:59  <Ammler> opengfx has a nogfx branch
15:28:43  <stinkyfax> i've started server. when i try to query server from client i see "queried server" but yet it doesn't seem to be working
15:29:35  <stinkyfax> where do I put openttd.cfg file?
15:29:35  <Ammler> check
15:29:44  <stinkyfax> i have no openttd.cfg file
15:30:00  <Alberth> close down the program, and it writes one
15:30:07  <stinkyfax> ah
15:31:23  <stinkyfax> is there any good cfg for servers available?
15:31:49  <Ammler> the default cfg is fine
15:32:02  <dih>
15:32:10  <dih> that'll be for your openttd related questions
15:32:11  <Qantourisc> I started at the translatios, but it's a tricky language :) "goods" would you see them as "goods as the thing" or "stuff to be transported" ?
15:32:20  <dih> for the linux related stuff:
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15:33:13  <Ammler> default settings we change:
15:33:29  <AveiMil> Is proxy transporting possible?
15:33:45  <AveiMil> Transporting passengers from city A to the coast, and then from coast to city B by boat?
15:33:56  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: yes
15:34:02  <Ammler> halfish
15:34:06  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: using "transfer" at the unload order
15:34:06  <AveiMil> couldn't get that to work with passangers
15:34:10  <AveiMil> ah
15:34:11  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: however
15:34:14  <Qantourisc> make sure you don't load them :)
15:34:23  <Qantourisc> so transfer "and leave empry"
15:34:43  <Ammler> you should make 2 docks
15:34:45  <Qantourisc> unless the game is smart enough not to pick the old ones up to transfer them back :)
15:35:07  <Alberth> it is not that smart
15:35:24  <Alberth> AveiMil: look at  feeder systems at the wiki
15:35:30  <Ammler> we need "station slots" :-)
15:35:39  <Alberth> ?
15:36:10  <Ammler> where you could define a slot for departure and one for arrival
15:36:36  <stinkyfax> do i put competitor speed to 0 for multiplayer?
15:37:05  <Ammler> just use defaults :-)
15:37:17  <Ammler> and adjust with playing
15:37:32  <AveiMil> But that does not work with subsidies transfer?
15:37:50  <AveiMil> or does it?
15:38:58  <Alberth> if it doesn't it sounds like a bug
15:39:32  <Alberth> I'd expect that it works, but never tried it
15:40:32  <Ammler> I am not sure, if authority should pay you, if you don't setup a direct route
15:41:24  <AveiMil> I noticed at least that the boat now says "passengers from (the proxy stop)" and not the city where the bus collected the passangers from
15:41:30  <AveiMil> so I'll guess it dosen't work with subsidies
15:41:33  <AveiMil> which is a shame
15:41:45  <Ammler> or a feature :-P
15:42:15  <AveiMil> haha, doubtful it was intentional
15:42:39  <AveiMil> can you change the maximum intrest level via a NewGRF?
15:42:40  <Alberth> don't be too sure, when you bring cargoes (like passengers) to the final destination, a final computation takes place
15:42:59  <Ammler> it's not the meaning to sponsor a route, where the passenger has to switch vehicle 10 times
15:43:14  <Hirundo> AveiMil: interest cannot be changed via grf
15:43:16  <AveiMil> (they're not real passengers)
15:43:17  <AveiMil> :D
15:43:37  <AveiMil> damn, why is it capped at 4%?
15:43:39  <Alberth> they are just collections of 0s and 1s  :)
15:44:37  <Ammler> that is just my explaination, why it is a feature and not a bug, if it doesn't work :-)
15:44:50  <AveiMil> I'll start a new game and test it
15:44:58  <AveiMil> but back to the intrest, how can that be changed?
15:45:04  <AveiMil> it's odd it's capped at 4%
15:45:42  <Hirundo> Inflation is coupled to interest, else inflation would get too high
15:46:11  <Hirundo> resulting in nasty overflow bugs etc.
15:47:34  <AveiMil> Does inflation affect everything?
15:47:50  <AveiMil> Like building costs/running costs/pruchase cost and also income per passenger etc?
15:48:14  <planetmaker> yes
15:49:50  <AveiMil> does it affect maximum loan?
15:49:54  <AveiMil> or does that stay static?
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15:53:15  <Qantourisc> What is the difference between maize and grain in openttd ?
15:53:58  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: the amount of money they pay go up as the years progress
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15:54:04  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: so i'm betting costs also go up
15:54:13  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: and stuff also gets more expensive so
15:54:19  <Hirundo> costs and income go up, but costs go faster
15:54:21  <Qantourisc> (to buy)
15:54:58  <Qantourisc> Ow wand the grain-maize question was not to be a prick, i need to know this to translate :D
15:55:00  <Alberth>
15:55:07  * Qantourisc looks
15:55:16  <planetmaker> Qantourisc: it's different. But in effect the same thing ;-)
15:55:20  <AveiMil> eh? What I was wondering was if I have setting maximum loan set to 200,000
15:55:31  <AveiMil> after 50 years, due to inflation, will I be able to borrow more from the bank?
15:55:34  <AveiMil> or is that limit static?
15:55:40  <Qantourisc> planetmaker: i see
15:55:41  <Alberth> haha, picture is the same :)
15:55:48  <Qantourisc> planetmaker: does it occur in the same game ?
15:55:57  <planetmaker> not by default
15:55:58  <Qantourisc> planetmaker: or is it a differnt cargo-unit-type
15:56:17  <Qantourisc> otherwise i translate it twice the same, and otherwise i need to add a slight difference to the translation
15:56:29  <planetmaker> one is temperate climate, the other arctic. or alike
15:56:39  <Alberth>  <-- lists the climates
15:56:46  <Qantourisc> planetmaker: is the cargo-type the same ?
15:57:02  <Qantourisc> check source code ?
15:57:21  <planetmaker> I can write you a wagon which works for MAIZE and fails for GRAIN
15:57:30  <Qantourisc> so differnt
15:57:37  <planetmaker> and make both available ingame
15:57:37  <Qantourisc> ok then i must translate it differntly
16:02:11  <AveiMil> nobody knows?
16:02:30  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: sorry i missed the question
16:02:39  <Qantourisc> AveiMil: if the maintaince cost goes up ?
16:02:48  <Alberth> AveiMil: apparently not
16:03:00  <Qantourisc> 'AveiMil: after 50 years, due to inflation, will I be able to borrow more from the bank?' <= that one ?
16:03:05  <Alberth> AveiMil: you can check the source code, or try it
16:03:16  <Qantourisc> iirc you can borrow more later
16:03:23  <Qantourisc> not 100% sure
16:03:32  <Alberth> yes, it is releated to the size of your company
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16:06:10  <AveiMil> ok
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16:13:31  <stinkyfax> "no suitable ai's available"
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16:16:27  <stinkyfax> what is subsidy multiplier?
16:17:04  <Spoons> The multiplier for subsidies.
16:17:15  <planetmaker> when you accept a subsidy, you get paid that factor more than you'd get paid for providing tha transport usually without the subsidy
16:17:43  <stinkyfax> i see, thanks :)
16:18:09  <planetmaker> usually not worth to look for subsidies ;-)
16:20:08  <stinkyfax> can't get AI to work :(
16:21:45  <planetmaker> download some.
16:21:58  <stinkyfax> tried PathZilla
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16:22:11  <stinkyfax> ow it seem to work
16:22:14  <stinkyfax> but very slow :)
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16:24:16  <Terkhen> give it some time ;)
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16:26:41  <planetmaker> also try different AI. They have different strengths and weaknesses
16:29:48  <AveiMil> item(FEAT_AIRCRAFT, SampsonU52, 0)                   { property { cost_factor: 14*param[50]/100; running_cost_factor: 85*param[55]/100; speed: 37; } }
16:29:59  <AveiMil> dosent look like I can set running_costs for aircraft using running_cost_factor
16:30:08  <AveiMil> any idea why it's different from trains/viehcles etc?
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16:38:40  <AveiMil> I don't get it :(
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16:38:57  <Hirundo> running_cost_factor should work like the other vehicle types
16:39:33  <Hirundo> except that there is a typo in the source ...
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16:40:12  <Hirundo> I"ll add a fix later tonight
16:40:30  <AveiMil> what should I use now then?
16:41:00  <Hirundo> 0x0E should work
16:41:08  <Hirundo> instead of running_cost_factor
16:42:04  <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 255: Unknown property number: 14
16:42:58  <AveiMil> gave me that error
16:43:05  <AveiMil> 0x0E: 130*param[55]/100;
16:47:18  <AveiMil> any idea?
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16:56:09  <AveiMil> Hirundo, 0x0E did not work :(
16:56:21  <AveiMil> I've gone through and tried with parameter numbers 1-15 now
16:56:23  <AveiMil> not working
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17:02:12  * AveiMil cries crocodile tears
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17:06:46  <AveiMil> 'running_cost_factor'          : {'size': 1, 'num': 0x0D},
17:06:59  <AveiMil> tried that from the action0properties file
17:07:01  <AveiMil> but no dice
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17:10:03  <AveiMil> Hirundo, what was the TYPO??! So I can use the typo'ed property?
17:11:30  <Hirundo> AveiMil: Change 0x0D to 0x0E on the line you cited above
17:11:53  <AveiMil> nmlc: "input", line 255: Unknown property number: 14
17:12:02  <AveiMil> that's what I get with 0x0E
17:12:12  <planetmaker> 'running_cost_factor' : {'size': 1, 'num': 0x0D},
17:12:22  <Hirundo> should become 'running_cost_factor' : {'size': 1, 'num': 0x0E}
17:12:44  <AveiMil> oh in the nml source
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17:12:58  <Hirundo> I'll commit a fix to nml
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17:13:09  <Yexo> <- lists the factor as 0x0D
17:13:54  <Yexo> oh, it's about aircraft, sorry
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17:14:24  <AveiMil> that's much better, I did not understand you meant to fix the nml source
17:14:26  <planetmaker> good to have additional testers :-)
17:14:35  <AveiMil> so I used 0x0E in the item propert line
17:14:46  <AveiMil> now it works
17:14:53  <Yexo> don't, always use the name in your nml file
17:14:57  <planetmaker> AveiMil: can you create a tiny newgrf which defines all properties of a single plane?
17:15:45  *** Keyboard_Warrior [~holyduck@] has quit [Quit: Forlater kanalen]
17:16:12  <planetmaker> <-- and make it available for us by attaching it to that topic? :-)
17:16:37  <AveiMil> not if you expect me to assign each property the default and correct value
17:16:46  <planetmaker> you'll help directly making sure that these problems you encounter get solved and _stay_ solved ;-)
17:16:47  <AveiMil> that took ages just for the three properties I already have :)
17:16:59  <planetmaker> I don't care really about the values really
17:17:07  <planetmaker> and only one plane, not all planes
17:17:28  <AveiMil> oh, that's easy then
17:26:44  <AveiMil> How do I upload?
17:27:59  <AveiMil> Tried to create an account.
17:28:06  <AveiMil> Says successful but can't seem to login
17:28:40  <AveiMil>
17:28:50  <AveiMil> planetmaker, uploaded it there
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17:31:23  <planetmaker> what's your account name at the devzone?
17:31:51  <AveiMil> AveiMil
17:32:30  <planetmaker> and... did you get the registration e-mail?
17:32:37  <AveiMil> ah, you have to activate
17:32:43  <AveiMil> the registration process did not mention that
17:33:12  <planetmaker> I think one has to
17:33:22  <planetmaker> otherwise it would be spammer's heaven
17:33:26  <AveiMil> logged in now
17:33:35  <AveiMil> but don't see any way to upload files to your link
17:34:08  <planetmaker> update at the buttom of the page should do the trick
17:35:51  <AveiMil> done
17:35:53  <AveiMil> hope that's fine
17:36:12  <planetmaker> thanks :-)
17:36:24  <AveiMil> np
17:39:41  <AveiMil> The early starting aircraft
17:39:46  <AveiMil> Don't seem very balanced.
17:40:23  <AveiMil> I don't see why you would ever choose one of the two taht's not Coleman Count
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18:05:54  <Eddi|zuHause> aircraft was always one of the least balanced (aka interesting) parts of the game
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18:10:15  <AveiMil> that's something I intend to do fix
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18:20:38  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21112 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Codechange: reduce the amount (of copying) variables
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18:36:16  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21113 /trunk/src/ (strgen/strgen.cpp strgen/strgen.h strings.cpp): -Codechange: remove the amount of places where the language pack identifier magic value is
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21114 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: basque - 11 changes by HerrBasque
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:45:42  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
18:45:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hungarian - 1 changes by IPG
18:45:43  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 4 changes by lorenzodv
18:46:58  <AveiMil> What the hell? Is the max reliablity of stuff RANDOM?
18:47:02  <AveiMil> I // Steam Engines
18:47:02  <AveiMil>   item(FEAT_TRAINS, KirbyPaulTankSteam, 0)      { property { cost_factor: 7*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 50*param[20]/100; } }              // Temperate
18:47:02  <AveiMil>   item(FEAT_TRAINS, ChaneyJubileeSteam, 8)      { property { cost_factor: 13*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 120*param[20]/100; } }            // Temperate
18:47:02  <AveiMil>   item(FEAT_TRAINS, GinzuA4Steam, 9)            { property { cost_factor: 19*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 140*param[20]/100; } }            // Temperate
18:47:03  <AveiMil>   item(FEAT_TRAINS, SH8PSteam, 10)              { property { cost_factor: 22*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 130*param[20]/100; } }            // Temperate
18:47:04  <AveiMil>   item(FEAT_TRAINS, Wills280Steam, 7)           { property { cost_factor: 14*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 130*param[20]/100; } }            // Sub-Artic / Tropical
18:47:04  <AveiMil>   item(FEAT_TRAINS, PloddyphutChooChoo, 2)      { property { cost_factor: 10*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 90*param[20]/100; } }             // Toyland
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18:47:06  <AveiMil>   item(FEAT_TRAINS, PowernautChooChoo, 3)       { property { cost_factor: 15*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 130*param[20]/100; } }            // Toyland
18:47:06  <AveiMil>   item(FEAT_TRAINS, MightymoverChooChoo, 4)     { property { cost_factor: 19*param[10]/100; running_cost_factor: 145*param[20]/100; } }            // Toyland
18:47:08  <AveiMil> // Diesel Engines
18:47:10  <AveiMil> ehhh whops ignore that
18:47:15  <AveiMil> every other game I create
18:47:21  <AveiMil> max reliablity of the airplanes differ
18:47:47  <planetmaker> yes, reliability is somewhat random
18:48:00  <AveiMil> that's not very good for balance
18:48:11  <planetmaker> it's very good for the re-play fun
18:48:13  <dih> the knowledge of pastebin is not very wide spread is it?
18:48:16  <Terkhen> AveiMil:
18:48:37  <AveiMil> I wasent supposed to paste that though
18:48:41  <AveiMil> shit+ins my mistake
18:48:45  <AveiMil> shift even
18:48:53  <AveiMil> by even
18:48:54  <AveiMil> jeez
18:49:04  <Terkhen> :D
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18:49:14  <AveiMil> planetmaker, don't see how that adds to the replay fun
18:49:30  <AveiMil> might as well randomize the cost of everything too
18:49:32  <planetmaker> every game another vehicle is 'best'
18:49:40  <planetmaker> yes, might. But isn't.
18:50:07  <AveiMil> it's very hard to even know how much of a difference 5-10% max reliability makes in terms of cost effectiveness
18:50:13  <AveiMil> so I totally disagree
18:51:01  <AveiMil> there's no way to force the reliability
18:51:01  <AveiMil> ?
18:51:47  <planetmaker> switch off breakdowns
18:52:29  <AveiMil> that would make maintenance pointless
18:52:42  <dih> no it would not
18:53:28  <AveiMil> no? wear and tear affects speed perhaps
18:53:34  <dih> ...
18:53:40  <dih> rating
18:54:06  <dih> ^ that for your information is a keyword - go search
18:55:05  <AveiMil> "Each vehicle has a different reliability rating, which is related to the number of Breakdowns the vehicle can suffer. "
18:55:11  <AveiMil> that's all I see related to rating
18:55:20  <AveiMil> just say what your point is instead pelase
18:55:56  <dih> i'll expand the keyword: station rating
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18:57:24  <AveiMil> Max speed of last vehicle entering station and speed is effected by maintenance, is that what your trying to say?
18:58:44  <dih> better rated cargo pays better off
18:59:26  <dih> so if that rating at the station is influenced - it influences your pay
18:59:47  <AveiMil> is that a 'yes' to my question?
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19:11:44  <frosch123> AveiMil: newgrf do not affect the max-reliability of an engine. but they can set how fast the reliabilty drops for a vehicle
19:12:28  <AveiMil> ok ty for the tip
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19:38:38  <Wolf01> hello
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20:20:01  <andythenorth_> why do trams have slightly higher friction coeffecient than trains?  steel on steel....
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20:21:23  <Rubidium> rubber from cars on the tracks?
20:22:00  <SpComb> thicker air in the cities
20:22:03  <SpComb> or denser
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20:39:25  <Alberth> are trolleys not also considered a tram?
20:39:33  <Alberth> +buses
20:39:58  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: I don't remember, those values where agreed while I was coding the improved acceleration for rv patch
20:41:05  <Terkhen> found it:
20:41:54  <__ln__> what's the status of adding a distinct sign for tram stops?
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20:43:25  * Alberth was not aware of the existence of such an issue
20:45:49  <__ln__> it has been discussed here, at least.  i doubt there's a formal bug report about it.
20:46:22  <Alberth> I am pretty often not here, so that is very well possible
20:47:16  <__ln__> here are some non-genuine screenshots to illustrate the idea:
20:47:42  <__ln__> Eddi might have even a better icon for a tram...
20:48:04  <planetmaker> __ln__: then you need (also) a separate icon for reach track type
20:48:06  <Hirundo> What about freight trams?
20:48:46  <planetmaker> or at least incompatible train track type
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20:49:16  <__ln__> planetmaker: why?
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20:49:30  <planetmaker> consistency?
20:49:46  <planetmaker> or why should trams get their own symbol, but maglevs not?
20:50:33  <__ln__> because in real life trams have their own symbol (except in germany), while maglevs don't (because all maglev projects got cancelled).
20:51:22  <planetmaker> realism seldomly has been a good support argument ;-)
20:51:50  <__ln__> planetmaker: anyway, a tram is not a bus, but a maglev is still a train.
20:51:59  <planetmaker> is it?
20:52:17  <__ln__> i don't know, never rode one.
20:52:20  <planetmaker> I dare say the means of transport are similiarily distinct
20:52:52  <__ln__> I dare say being symbolised with the icon of a bus is an insult against trams.
20:53:19  <planetmaker> as is for maglevs being symbolized as a steam train. as is for helis to be symbolized as a plane etc pp
20:53:48  * SpComb yawns
20:53:51  <planetmaker> honestly I don't see a 'just add the tram symbol' happening
20:53:53  <SpComb> seems I created myself a maintenance burden
20:54:12  <SmatZ> trams are just baby trains
20:54:13  <planetmaker> while a separate symbol for each means of transport - might be a nice option
20:54:43  <__ln__> planetmaker: sillier things have 'happened' in the past...
20:54:44  <planetmaker> someone woke SmatZ ;-) hi
20:54:54  <SmatZ> hello planetmaker :)
20:54:57  <planetmaker> did someone say beer? ;-)
20:55:19  <__ln__> yes, a distinct sign for trams and beer
20:55:29  <SmatZ> nope :) I am reading this place all the day, I am just not saying anything :)
20:55:35  <planetmaker> yeah... I'm quite happy andy re-considered beer for FIRS
20:55:38  <SmatZ> :-)
20:55:41  <planetmaker> :-)
20:55:58  * andythenorth_ wants a symbol specific to dump trucks
20:56:01  <andythenorth_> and one for tractor
20:56:10  <planetmaker> for floats
20:56:16  <planetmaker> and hovercraft
20:56:20  <planetmaker> and catemaran
20:56:30  <planetmaker> passenger vs. goods ships
20:57:17  <andythenorth_> planetmaker: beer in FIRS 0.5.3?
20:57:24  <planetmaker> is there?
20:57:38  * Alberth  ponders a green hovering diamond above a tram-stop
20:57:45  <planetmaker> Dunno... I for unknown reasons like particularily fish and beer as cargo :-)
20:57:57  <andythenorth_> fish, chips and beer
20:57:59  <Alberth> fish and chips :)
20:58:02  <andythenorth_> potatoes are an important crop
20:58:07  <andythenorth_> maybe we add them
20:58:07  <planetmaker> must be because those were the first cargos I had fun on MP servers :-)
20:59:47  <__ln__> would everyone be happy if the current bus icon was just given a pantograph?
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21:03:22  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21115 /trunk/src/strgen/strgen.cpp: -Codechange: make it more clear that genders and cases in the base translation are not supported
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21:05:10  <planetmaker> __ln__: it would have the big disadvantage of "where are the trams?" in plain OpenTTD
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21:05:26  <planetmaker> so... I'd be unhappy ;-)
21:06:22  <__ln__> isn't there already the "where are the trams?" disadvantage, as trams are hinted about in the road construction menu, but it's disabled.
21:10:11  <michi_cc> andythenorth_: The rolling friction in the game stands for all related resistances like curve resistance for example. And tram tracks generally have sharper curves than rail.
21:10:41  <andythenorth_> ok
21:11:39  <michi_cc> And if you want more reasoning you can also imagine the tram tracks to be less stable (and thus have more deformation). But in the end the only real explanation is better game balance :)
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21:46:46  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21116 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add [FS#3012]: Reduce the chances to accidentially break savegames with NewGRFs
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22:45:25  <Terkhen> good night
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22:46:42  <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
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23:25:11  <Hirundo> planetmaker: You committed one of your ponies :) ?
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23:25:21  <planetmaker> :-P
23:25:35  <planetmaker> indeed
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