Log for #openttd on 22nd November 2010:
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07:43:43  <avdg> ^how many hack attempts like this are happening the last days?
07:43:56  <V453000> oh it is also here
07:44:03  <V453000> ._.
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07:44:52  <avdg> yeah, I see :x
07:46:34  <avdg> that bouncer is btw dead (as project)
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07:48:33  <Rubidium> I wouldn't call those hack attempts
07:49:01  <ccfreak2k> They aren't by a longshot. It's just spam.
07:49:17  <ccfreak2k> What's interesting is that the file in question has all of the proxies that they use.
07:49:25  <ccfreak2k> Just sort and add to ban list. You're done!
07:49:35  *** mode/#openttd [+b *!*@] by planetmaker
07:49:42  <planetmaker> good morning
07:50:03  <Rubidium> I fear it's worse than spam; I fear they hope you download and run that thing
07:50:15  <Rubidium> (and enter their botnet)
07:53:06  <ccfreak2k> Rubidium, yeah.
07:53:30  <ccfreak2k> It's posed as a registered copy of mirc with a psybnc script in it.
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07:55:10  <avdg> in case of a botnet, an ip could possible be an unreliable way to ban these messages
07:56:58  <ccfreak2k> Cross-check the IP addresses against the proxy list./
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08:02:20  <boekabart> good morning
08:03:00  <boekabart> a lot of dust came of IRC app when I opened it... so , what's happening?
08:03:22  <Terkhen> good morning
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10:27:35  <Eddi|zuHause> not a lot is happening at all, it appears ;)
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10:38:47  <Mazur> Pomtipom.
10:38:59  <Mazur> Mood gorning, planetmaker.
10:39:07  <Mazur> And Terkhen.
10:39:18  <Terkhen> hi Mazur
10:39:20  <Mazur> And boekabart.
10:39:23  <planetmaker> moin
10:42:34  <Mazur> planetmaker: That [[KORCH-away]] had the same urrel.
10:42:44  <Mazur> Different ip, though.
10:42:56  <Mazur>
10:43:10  <planetmaker> I know
10:43:26  <planetmaker> but as they'll be glined anyway, not worth to bother really
10:43:38  <Mazur> k
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10:44:48  <Mazur> They should be G-stringed, instead.
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12:17:59  <fjb> Moin
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14:19:51  <Belugas> hello
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14:31:06  <planetmaker> salut Belugas
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14:46:20  <Belugas> hello sir planetmaker :)
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15:11:22  <Belugas> Eddi|zuHause,yes, i might get carried away. But... i have to be honest with myself, otherwise i could not face myself in the mirror!
15:11:24  <Belugas> hem...
15:11:42  * planetmaker hugs Belugas
15:12:02  <Belugas> puuuurrrrrrr
15:12:05  <Belugas> puuuuuuuurrrrrr
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15:40:27  <supermop> hello
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15:41:47  <Belugas> hi
15:42:03  <supermop> how is it going?
15:43:16  <Belugas> unfortunately, as a monday morning :)
15:43:18  <Belugas> and yo?
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15:44:17  <supermop> well
15:44:33  <supermop> i have a strange work schedule, so i dont work today
15:44:46  <supermop> but i do have to get all of my errands for the week done
15:47:40  <supermop> probably not going to get anything TT related doone this morning
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15:49:45  <Belugas> i would not mind having such a schedule
15:50:06  <Belugas> would be even bwetter if my wife was working and not on same schedule ;)
15:50:09  <Belugas> or not...
15:50:16  <Rubidium> but then you'll be hauling 30 kg bags of cement on mondays
15:50:31  <Belugas> not much of a difference ;)
15:50:53  <Belugas> anyway, they did not felt that heavy
15:51:04  <Belugas> granted, the last one did...
15:53:54  <supermop> i am actually still answering as many emails, and doing as many drawings as if i was at work, just do not have to be there
16:07:14  * Belugas understands
16:07:58  <supermop> ok i have to rn get things done
16:08:01  <supermop> later all
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16:09:55  <IchGuckLive> Hi all my first megacrossing ->
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16:11:03  <IchGuckLive> what do you think how many trains the crossing can carry ? and how do i check that by ?
16:11:34  <Yexo> not that many
16:11:39  <Yexo> there are a lot of very sharp turns
16:11:48  <Yexo> which kill train speed if you're using realistic acceleration
16:12:02  <Yexo> if you use the original acceleration, the slopes kill speed
16:12:23  <fjb> The best crossings are the ones that you avoid.
16:12:37  <Yexo> and after that the ones that are actually used
16:12:43  <IchGuckLive> therfor are all the loops
16:12:59  <Yexo> ie first create several rails with trains, if you can merge some of them do so and create a crossing
16:13:04  <Yexo> a crossing without trains is useless
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16:13:37  <IchGuckLive> i will now put 12 in
16:14:23  <IchGuckLive> we will see By till later
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17:18:36  <Nite> Hi
17:19:01  <planetmaker> hi
17:19:28  <Nite> 1.0.5 runs much smoother for me - less hangs
17:19:34  <Nite> but
17:20:17  <Nite> still when iam in multiplayer games log in a game and try to save for the first time
17:21:05  <Nite> the harddisk starts to work loudly (whats rödeln in english ?) and the game crashes to main menu (Not desktop)
17:21:16  <Nite> then after the first attempt it works
17:21:33  <planetmaker> any message you receive?
17:22:14  <Nite> no nothing - i find myself in main menu and if i leave the game running saving works consequently
17:22:35  <planetmaker> Like connection lost or 'could not connect' or alike? Hm..
17:23:35  <Nite> i can reproduce this almost every time on servers loaded with newgrfs (basecost - different industries and trainsets ... ....)
17:23:45  <Nite> no as i said no message at all
17:24:36  <Nite> - klick on save -> harddisc acces -> mainmenu
17:25:13  <planetmaker> ok, you're playing on a server just fine. Then you make a savegame and you loose connection, right?
17:25:15  <Nite> and this only ONE time after starting ottd
17:25:40  <Nite> from then on it works now even more fluidly
17:25:44  <planetmaker> Does it also happen when you startup OpenTTD anew, connect anew and save again?
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17:26:11  <Nite> i describe it further
17:26:20  <planetmaker> Sounds like your PC is too slow for handling the saving and the continued playing at the same time. Or has too little memory for holding the map in memory two times
17:26:45  <planetmaker> That might happen especially for games which require a lot of CPU (large maps, many vehicles)
17:27:12  <Nite> it only happens the first time i login to a multiplayer server (approx 90% of the time) and the game was just started up
17:27:47  <Nite> yes i tend to play "large" games in term of content not maps
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17:27:58  <planetmaker> that indeed sounds like your PC is too slow to handle the disk access, the memory swapping and the continued playing
17:28:20  <planetmaker> At least that's the only explanation which I can think of :-)
17:28:35  <planetmaker> Is it a modern CPU with much memory or rather not?
17:29:23  <Nite> its not new but should be fast enoug (2.4 * 2 core2 - tooo much ram)
17:30:13  <Nite> it does not happen in singelplayer so it is not that bad because teh game persists on the server
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17:31:00  <Nite> i do not think it is a local problem - because it does only happen after starting up ottd for first time and always only once
17:31:19  <Nite> is the game building some database/file the first time you save?
17:32:31  <planetmaker> That sounds fast enough. In single player it can't happen though that you loose connection. then the game will just happily slow down
17:32:55  <planetmaker> that it doesn't happen there actually is an indicator that it IS a problem with handling all those tasks concurrently
17:33:23  <Nite> and this happens to me since 1.0.4 before i had almost no problems at all ... just some disconnects every decade ;)
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17:33:28  <planetmaker> what it does when you save a game is: copy the whole map (with all settings) to another place in the memory.
17:33:41  <Nite> ok thats what i thought
17:33:43  <planetmaker> That has to be done fast, your game is locally on halt as long as that takes place
17:33:51  <planetmaker> if that is too long: kick by the server in MP games
17:33:58  <Nite> ok antd then it has to resync
17:34:00  <planetmaker> and then a 2nd thread compresses and saves the stuff
17:34:13  <planetmaker> no need to re-sync. but to catch up with the server.
17:34:22  <planetmaker> Maybe you have too many other things running in parallel?
17:34:48  <Nite> yes i have, but cannot sacrifice them
17:35:00  <Nite> well i will test it further (if i want or not ;) )
17:35:38  <planetmaker> he. Well, if there's much else going on, then the CPU will be probably too busy to catch up fast enough.
17:35:43  <planetmaker> when saving
17:35:49  <Nite> if noone reported this before i consider it beeing a very specific (not to say my ;) ) failure
17:36:29  <planetmaker> Not that I know ;-) - but for every person who reports something I expect there are 100 which don't report the same problem...
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17:39:23  <Nite> strangely it sometimes works with almost no harddisk work at all
17:39:45  <Nite> tell me how you call "hardisc noise" in english?
17:39:54  <planetmaker> when other programmes are involved... no one knows what the OS' caches then do :-)
17:40:08  <planetmaker> I'd call it 'Rödeln' :-P
17:40:08  <Nite> a dog barks - a harddisk ???
17:41:01  <Nite> english have no word for rödeln ... then
17:41:18  <Nite> ru german  palnet?
17:41:23  <planetmaker> it's quite a peculiar word, I guess.
17:41:40  <Samu> hi
17:41:42  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r21294 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix [FS#4251]: check for existance of save/scenario dirs before asking for deletion confirmation
17:42:03  <Samu> nice
17:42:04  <planetmaker> I'm neither Russian. Nor am I a pal-net ;-)
17:42:06  <Nite> its like "knartzen", thats the sound electronic instruments do ;)
17:42:59  <Rubidium> grinding?
17:43:29  <planetmaker> should I translate, I'd use maybe screetch. Or
17:43:32  <Rubidium> although that might be the sound for the bad version of the HDD making sound
17:43:59  <Nite> leo cant do it
17:44:15  <planetmaker> that's why I gave the discussion link ;-)
17:44:18  <Nite> grinding is a noise ? if yes it must be for all kinds of things
17:44:49  <planetmaker> grinding doesn't quite fit. But... well.
17:44:51  <Nite> "rödeln" however is specificly only ecessive HD access noise ;)
17:45:11  <Nite> like for animals "meow"
17:45:56  <Samu> spin
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17:46:33  <Nite> spin?
17:46:50  <Devedse> Guys is it normal that openttd runs slower on linux then on windows?
17:47:50  <Nite> (it means the "crrr  cr cr crrrrrr cr crrrrrrrrrc rcr krcr crrr" noise)
17:48:05  <planetmaker> that depends on many things, Devedse. In general not
17:48:28  <Devedse> I might have not installed the newest graphic drives
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17:48:31  <Rubidium> Devedse: what Linux?
17:48:35  <Devedse> ubuntu 10.10
17:48:46  <Nite> i have to try ottd on ubuntu (also saving) sometimes
17:49:17  <Rubidium> Devedse: are you sure you are using the exact same test case to compare performance?
17:49:34  <Rubidium> e.g. if you're runnning with AIs on Linux and without AIs on Windows there's be a quite significant different
17:49:41  <Devedse> Rubidium, well I'm doing it on feeling so I can't really compare it with much accuracy
17:49:53  <Rubidium> likewise some AIs cause a bigger performance hit than other AIs
17:49:53  <Devedse> but there were no AI's on both times
17:50:20  <Devedse> In linux it just felt to lag especially when dragging the map around
17:50:29  <Rubidium> the animation setting makes quite some influence as well
17:50:43  <Devedse> Where can you find that?
17:51:00  <Rubidium> in the dropdown under the wrench
17:51:05  <Devedse> btw, it was both a clean installed 1.0.5 so without any setting ajustements
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17:51:54  <glx> maybe because 8bpp is not native
17:52:13  <Rubidium> it works fine for me on Linux, so it's probably something with the video stack (driver/sdl/X)
17:52:58  <glx> try comparing with 32bpp-anim blitters
17:53:45  <Devedse> Rubidium, on my laptop (which is way faster but still) when i run openttd (windows 7) it uses 0% - 1 % of my processor and on that computer it uses around 80-100% all the time
17:53:53  <Devedse> on the same 2024x2024 map size
17:53:56  <Devedse> or 2048
17:54:01  <Devedse> Can't remember what it was
17:54:27  <Rubidium> definitely sounds like failing video accelaration
17:54:50  <glx> and comparing on different computers is not comparing ;)
17:55:04  <Devedse> yea but I don't have windows currently installed on that compute anymore
17:55:15  <Devedse> so i can just say that it felt much smoother on windows
17:55:55  *** IchGuckLive [] has joined #openttd
17:56:06  <IchGuckLive> Good evening from Cold and Rainy Germany
17:56:18  <Devedse> Good evening from the dark and dry holland
17:56:26  <Samu> the only time I tried linux, it didn't boot
17:56:31  <Devedse> lol
17:56:33  <Samu> it installed all fine
17:56:40  <Samu> then on the first boot, crash
17:56:52  <IchGuckLive> samu use a ubuntu liveCD
17:56:59  <Samu> yes it was ubuntu
17:57:13  <Nite> "comparing on different computers is not comparing" 2nd that
17:57:15  <IchGuckLive> 10.04 on labtop
17:57:15  <Samu> it ran from the cd fine, but when installed it didn't boot
17:57:27  <Devedse> Iáž¿ gonna search some video card drives
17:57:32  <Devedse> after i found what card is in the system
17:57:42  <IchGuckLive> oh there are issues with noapic,nolapic on your system
17:58:05  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21295 /trunk/src/string_func.h: -Fix [FS#4259]: FreeBSD introduced strndup as well (MicRO)
17:58:06  <IchGuckLive> Samu: did you install from livecd to HDD ?
17:58:16  <Samu> yes
17:58:46  <IchGuckLive> you shoudent do this you need to put the CD in and then install so it takes all arguments withz
17:59:29  <Samu> I was never successful with linux
17:59:32  <Samu> don't bother
18:00:15  <IchGuckLive> by the way im running now 16 trains with no problem  since 2years ->
18:00:18  <Rubidium> I was never successful with Mac OSX/Darwin nor OS/2
18:00:33  <Devedse> Wtf I'm confused now, my processor is using 100% on a clean desktop...
18:00:36  <Devedse> in ubuntu
18:00:52  <IchGuckLive> im with all the 12 PC i own on ubuntu and they work perfact its just the beginning that makes problems
18:00:54  <Rubidium> Devedse: file a bug report to Ubuntu
18:01:15  <Samu> those ubuntu guys will flame you, like they did to me
18:01:25  <Rubidium> guess that's what you guess when you always try to push the newest of the newest and release before it's actually ready
18:01:51  <IchGuckLive> samu normaly not
18:01:54  <Devedse> Some kind of process is sucking my computer: "update-apt-xapian-index"
18:01:58  <Devedse> im gonna google what that is ;P
18:02:07  <IchGuckLive> #ubuntu  on freenode is perfact
18:02:09  <Rubidium> that sounds familiar
18:03:45  <Devedse> And now apparently the gnome system monitor to VIEW cpu uses is using 90% xD
18:04:01  <Devedse> higly optimizd code for sure
18:04:20  <IchGuckLive> Devedse: witch hardware?
18:04:29  <IchGuckLive> quadcore?
18:04:37  <Devedse> Single core
18:04:45  <Devedse> 2600 i believe from intel
18:04:46  <IchGuckLive> distro?
18:04:47  <Devedse> so pretty old
18:04:50  <Devedse> 10.10
18:05:01  <IchGuckLive> oh thats a miss go for 9.10
18:05:10  <Devedse> :o
18:05:22  *** Pulec [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:05:58  *** Fast2 [] has joined #openttd
18:05:59  <IchGuckLive> sometimes the trains in the simulation gone line up then the miss is cleaning up B)
18:06:09  *** Chruker [] has joined #openttd
18:06:14  *** Kichi [] has joined #openttd
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18:06:31  <IchGuckLive> thats wponderfull ,thats marveless ,thats perfect
18:06:54  <IchGuckLive> i need me to get a wopper W
18:07:18  <Nite> "the miss is cleaning up B" ? ? ?
18:07:38  <IchGuckLive> today we barried 4 US -Soldiers here in Ramstein with full onner
18:08:09  <IchGuckLive> Nite:  i runn a simulation on a 4x4 crossing
18:08:12  *** Samu [] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:08:29  *** Samu [] has joined #openttd
18:08:44  *** Pulec [] has joined #openttd
18:08:45  <Nite> i do not understand your english Ichgucklive
18:08:53  <IchGuckLive> sorry
18:08:59  *** TheMask96 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:09:01  <IchGuckLive> scenario
18:09:15  <planetmaker> both of you should then talk German to eachother.... In a prospective German channel ;-)
18:09:31  <IchGuckLive> as you planetmaker
18:09:58  <planetmaker> there once was one. But barely used and frequented.
18:10:06  <Nite> btw can i reg my nick on irc
18:10:13  <Nite> ?
18:10:27  <planetmaker>  /nickserv help register
18:10:39  <Nite> ty
18:11:59  <IchGuckLive> Opennttd is a good game :D Thank you all Developeras
18:11:59  <Nite> Help set
18:12:39  *** nicfer [~nicfer@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
18:13:24  *** nicfer [~nicfer@] has joined #openttd
18:13:28  * fjb sees some design flaws in that crossing.
18:13:48  <Nite> ok so you are on a server somewhere ...
18:13:54  <IchGuckLive> how mutch distance shoudt i go for between the boyes 6 or smaler
18:14:29  <IchGuckLive> fib im not perfect
18:14:41  *** Adambean [AdamR@] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
18:14:55  *** Zuu [] has joined #openttd
18:15:16  <Devedse> Well I'll try that linux driver stuff later, when I tried to install it instantly got errors but don't have time to look at it now :)
18:15:20  *** Adambean [AdamR@] has joined #openttd
18:15:41  *** Devedse [] has quit [Quit: Ik ga weg]
18:15:44  *** robotx [] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
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18:17:02  <Samu> when I see ????????? does that mean he's russian?
18:17:16  <Nite> do i tiepe "register" wit "/" or without ?
18:17:23  <Nite> type
18:21:34  <IchGuckLive> now 20trains running no jam at the crossing
18:21:47  <__ln___> please don't everyone start typing like IchGuckLive
18:21:55  <glx> /nickserv register Nite <password> <email>
18:22:33  <glx> or email password (I always forget the order)
18:23:50  *** andythenorth [] has joined #openttd
18:27:41  <andythenorth> evilning
18:28:41  <planetmaker> goodning
18:29:43  *** goblin [] has joined #openttd
18:32:16  <fjb> funning
18:34:23  <IchGuckLive> i cant joke ln is not happy with me
18:37:47  * fjb wonders how many sentences that are.
18:37:54  *** enr1x [] has quit [Quit: bye!]
18:39:06  <nicfer> !grepsrc spanish inquisition
18:39:13  <nicfer> oops
18:39:26  <Prof_Frink> That was unexpected.
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r21296 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 11 changes by habell
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 7 changes by glx
18:44:22  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: irish - 7 changes by tem
18:44:47  <Nite> ty
18:46:19  <IchGuckLive> is cia Dev no 1
18:47:14  <fjb> Psssst. Do not talk about the CIA. They will come and get you.
18:47:44  <IchGuckLive> there here in nummbers on the Base
18:47:50  *** ecke [~ecke@] has quit [Quit: more listen, more understand, more know]
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18:49:43  <andythenorth> ship smoke
18:50:29  <IchGuckLive> andythenorth: blender 2.5x is a nice tool to generate smoke
18:50:58  <planetmaker> I think andy knows how to generate smoke ;-)
18:51:12  <Belugas> i do too!
18:51:30  <andythenorth> what I don't know is how to write code to handle offsets
18:51:36  * fjb wonders if IchGuckLive ever thinks before typing.
18:51:49  <andythenorth> I don't really know what v->direction is returning
18:51:55  <andythenorth> nor what an enum is
18:52:04  <andythenorth> nor what this does _vehicle_smoke_pos[(v->direction + 2) % 8]
18:52:13  <andythenorth> although I can somewhat guess for each
18:52:16  <Belugas> i still don't know how to do donu8t holes with my smoke..
18:52:54  <planetmaker> v->direction is... just that. A direction. Which is an enum. An enum is just a bunch of ordered numbers with nametags.
18:53:17  <Rubidium> andythenorth:
18:53:28  <IchGuckLive> in witch programming language is openttd written ?
18:53:54  <__ln___> doing mathematical operations on enum values is conceptually evil
18:54:38  <andythenorth> so some_enum[] looks similar to array access
18:54:42  <andythenorth> what's the %8 doing
18:54:49  <andythenorth> there are 8 values, so I can somewhat guess
18:54:55  <IchGuckLive> modul 8
18:55:01  <Rubidium> modulo
18:55:33  * andythenorth googles
18:55:49  <planetmaker> divide by 8 and keep the remainder
18:55:51  <IchGuckLive> wikipedia modulo
18:56:23  <andythenorth> hmm
18:56:36  *** HerzogDeXtEr [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:57:03  <IchGuckLive> so im off By for today
18:57:06  <andythenorth> in that case I entirely don't understand
18:57:11  *** IchGuckLive [] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.3/20100423140709]]
19:00:45  * andythenorth thinks Pythagoras should be involved in smoke
19:01:01  <andythenorth> but doesn't seem to be
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19:07:59  * andythenorth wonders
19:08:19  <andythenorth> is the smoke positioned 'accurately' or 'approximately' with resp to offsets?
19:08:27  * andythenorth thinks 'approximately'
19:09:19  <andythenorth> anyone else understand the code?  it's kicking around 1971 in vehicle.cpp
19:13:06  <planetmaker> the x and y are with respect to the 'default' location of the smoke
19:13:37  <planetmaker> And are the initial coordinates where this effect vehicle starts
19:14:23  <andythenorth> @calc tan(45)
19:14:23  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.61977519054
19:14:38  <andythenorth> hmm
19:14:54  <andythenorth> @calc tan(60)
19:14:54  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.32004038938
19:15:01  <andythenorth> @calc tan(30)
19:15:01  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: -6.40533119665
19:15:43  * andythenorth is still baffled
19:16:17  <planetmaker> uhm... ? Trigonometric functions are certainly not used ;-)
19:16:27  <andythenorth> I don't know why not though
19:16:53  <planetmaker> desync
19:17:04  <planetmaker> floating point is evil and processor and hardware dependent
19:17:10  <andythenorth> ok
19:17:23  <andythenorth> so the offset positioning is somewhat approximate depending on angle
19:17:35  <planetmaker> there are only 8 angels.
19:17:40  <planetmaker> *angles
19:17:48  <planetmaker> they're well known
19:18:46  <andythenorth> so if vehicle direction is N....x offset is 0 * distance and y offset is -1 * distance
19:18:59  <andythenorth> if NE, x is 1 * distance, and y is -1 * distance
19:19:24  <andythenorth> which is strictly not correct, but probably works for something as vague as smoke, especially because vehicle is moving and smoke isn't
19:19:41  <andythenorth> it looks brutal but workable
19:19:53  <andythenorth> or it's doing it correctly and I've forgotten maths :P
19:20:28  <planetmaker> why do you think it's approximate?
19:21:11  <andythenorth> what's the angle for NE?  45 or 60?
19:21:18  <andythenorth> nvm
19:21:41  <planetmaker> neither I think ;-) But yes, it works
19:21:46  <planetmaker> like you said above
19:22:22  <andythenorth> if the offset is, e.g. 1.5, then for NE, x should be 1.5*cos(angle)
19:22:31  <andythenorth> rather than just 1.5
19:22:51  <andythenorth> but it probably doesn't matter due to size of pixel grid and other factors
19:23:37  <Samu> these aircraft look like swords
19:25:25  *** Wolf01 [] has joined #openttd
19:26:21  <Wolf01> hello
19:26:31  <supermop> hello
19:26:51  <Samu> hi
19:27:09  <Samu> paxlink is surviving in this TTD scenario
19:27:09  *** enr1x [] has joined #openttd
19:29:35  * andythenorth reaches for help
19:29:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: the smoke code you suggested yesterday works for some angles, not others
19:30:01  <andythenorth> I should be able to work out why, but haven't yet
19:30:57  <planetmaker> the x and y can be by 8 pixels. There the deviation from the true angle doesn't matter much
19:31:30  <planetmaker> maybe 16. Dunno :-)
19:31:45  <andythenorth> yeah, I figure it works in the real world
19:31:49  <andythenorth> of small pixels
19:31:54  <supermop> quick question:
19:32:09  <supermop> can i action 0 32 views for a station? or is 8 the max?
19:32:21  <planetmaker> there are many such hacks, andythenorth ;-) It just has to look ok
19:32:25  <andythenorth> what I don't know is what's offsetting smoke in wrong direction for some angles
19:32:46  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you should see some of the 'physics' I wrote for flash games :P
19:32:54  <planetmaker> :-P
19:33:31  <andythenorth> this is only hacking to get two offsets:
19:33:39  <andythenorth> if it worked, it would need replacing with a loop
19:34:11  *** |Jeroen| [] has quit [Quit: oO]
19:34:19  <andythenorth> works for SE, NE, NW, SW
19:34:23  <andythenorth> fails for N, S, E, W
19:34:41  <planetmaker> do you happen to have a nicely evolved FIRS game you could borrow me for testing?
19:34:56  <planetmaker> I only find a big PS game with 0.2 - which is too old
19:35:08  <andythenorth> smoke should be displaced laterally relative to vehicle for N, S, E, W; it's being displaced longitudinally
19:35:12  <andythenorth> planetmaker: let me see
19:35:14  <planetmaker> And it's lengthy to play one ;-)
19:35:25  <andythenorth> planetmaker: unpatched?  no
19:35:48  <planetmaker> whatever. Just so that it loads with trunk. I don't care for versions as long as it loads
19:35:54  <andythenorth> let me test
19:36:03  <planetmaker> I'll mess with newgrfs anyway ;-)
19:36:13  <supermop> PS game? FIRS on the pllaystation version!?
19:36:28  <planetmaker> No. PublicServer (of #openttdcoop)
19:36:30  <planetmaker> :-)
19:36:36  <supermop> i was being silly
19:36:50  <andythenorth> planetmaker: no my only big recent game won't load in trunk.  depends on at least alberth's industry patch, probably other stuff
19:37:02  <planetmaker> damn
19:37:05  <andythenorth> sorry
19:37:23  <planetmaker> well. The 1.5k trains game with 0.2 will probably do...
19:41:05  <andythenorth> bleargh
19:41:15  * andythenorth gives up on graph paper drawing for a bit
19:41:20  <andythenorth> food
19:41:32  <supermop> food is good
19:42:35  <Wolf01> svn experts! (as medic!)
19:43:42  * Wolf01 needs to separate the main trunk of his project from the development part, the trunk should only contain the source of the static library
19:44:04  <planetmaker> Wolf01: learn to enjoy mercurial queues :-)
19:44:22  <Wolf01> nah, svn .
19:44:51  <Wolf01> it's already a pain to know one vcs, and I need to use it for various projects
19:45:42  <andythenorth> bah
19:46:28  * andythenorth hates to be a quitter
19:46:58  <supermop> eating |= quitting
19:47:03  <planetmaker> I'd call it experimenting, andythenorth ;-)
19:47:41  *** jpcooper [] has joined #openttd
19:47:43  <jpcooper> hello
19:47:59  <planetmaker> hi
19:48:00  <jpcooper> is there a tutorial that explains more than the functionalities of openttd, but how to get a game going?
19:48:13  <Wolf01> the "correct" way could be 1) open the svn browser 2) create the folder in the branches repo 3) move the sources I need 4) set the branch as external when I check out?
19:48:15  <planetmaker> did you try the wiki?
19:48:29  <planetmaker> it has a tutorial with how to get going
19:48:38  <supermop> jpcooper, i find the best way to learn is to experiment
19:48:47  <planetmaker>
19:49:05  <planetmaker> but supermop is absolutely correct ;-)
19:49:16  <jpcooper> I've gone through that
19:49:25  <jpcooper> I suppose I should continue fiddling about with signals until I get it right
19:49:57  <planetmaker> you've also read all pages on signal(ing)?
19:50:47  <jpcooper> I've certainly read some
19:51:01  <supermop> well
19:51:40  <supermop> i find once you get used to the very basics of signals, the rest comes easily, but gradually
19:51:42  <frosch123> andythenorth: hmm, maybe replace one of the + by a -
19:52:09  <frosch123> afterall rotation matrices look like [cos -sin; sin cos]
19:52:26  <jpcooper> okay
19:54:55  <planetmaker> hm... how do I go for something where I want to offer for refit two different looks of a wagon for the same cargo?
19:55:18  <frosch123> you mean cargo prefix?
19:55:27  <andythenorth> subtype
19:55:36  <frosch123> damn, postfix :s
19:55:49  <planetmaker> Well. Like oil (perfum flacons) and oil (automotive lubricant)
19:56:00  <andythenorth> cargo subtype
19:56:11  <frosch123> callback 19
19:56:11  <andythenorth> it seems to rely on some odd string magic I don't wholly understand :P
19:56:17  <andythenorth> planetmaker: nml?
19:56:28  <frosch123> and var f2, but that is described at cb19
19:56:32  <Nite> the best way to learn is ingame
19:56:33  <planetmaker> well. sure. But if I know nfo I can work it out, too
19:56:49  <andythenorth> HEQS does it
19:56:52  <Nite> some tutorial game
19:57:05  <planetmaker> using the CB for the cargo suffix for the same cargo type results in an error message... maybe faulty?
19:57:26  <Samu> is miles per hour a local setting or a server setting?
19:57:40  <Samu> or a save game setting
19:57:40  <planetmaker> I'll have a look at CB19 again, I guess :-)
19:57:41  <Nite> local
19:58:16  <Samu> Nite, can you help me confirm
19:58:31  <Samu> do you have km/h or mph?
19:58:48  <Nite> its in the game options
19:58:58  <Nite> rigth top ;)
19:59:02  <Samu> I know
19:59:16  <Samu> I started this scenario in multiplayer and it changed to mph
19:59:19  <Nite> it is not serverside
19:59:29  <Samu> but I have km/h by default
19:59:44  <Nite> you can change it while playing
20:00:00  <andythenorth> planetmaker: look in HEQS for template_industrial_tram_wagons_action1_2.tnfo
20:00:16  <andythenorth> hmm
20:00:20  <andythenorth> no
20:00:21  <planetmaker> thanks, will do :-)
20:00:25  <Samu> what happens when someone joins my game? will it use mph or km/h?
20:00:34  <andythenorth> planetmaker: industrial_tram_wagons_1.pnfo
20:00:41  <planetmaker> k :-)
20:01:08  <andythenorth> cb19 sets the text strings
20:01:19  <planetmaker> yes
20:01:20  <andythenorth> check prop F2 in the graphics chain, then branch
20:01:29  <planetmaker> I have that for a single case :-)
20:01:37  <Belugas> Samu, it's a local representation only.  you can change it at will, not affecting the others
20:01:44  <Belugas> if memory serves me well..
20:01:45  <planetmaker> I think the branching and where is what I need to check out
20:02:07  <andythenorth> you're changing sprites only?
20:02:11  <andythenorth> not capacity etc
20:02:15  <planetmaker> that's my plan, yes
20:02:22  <planetmaker> or I'd need to check F2 there, too
20:02:37  <Samu> I'm not making myself clear
20:02:40  <planetmaker> otherwise I'd check the other variable
20:02:48  <Samu> my default is km/h
20:02:51  <planetmaker> Samu: you set what you want. No other is affected.
20:03:01  <planetmaker> This is now the 3rd person telling you. Clear now?
20:03:03  <Samu> I started this scenario that uses mph
20:03:15  <Samu> and I see everything with mph
20:03:33  <Samu> why doesn't it show km/h instead?
20:03:43  <andythenorth> planetmaker: you might find one of the following applies:
20:03:43  <andythenorth> (1)  you need to provide an F2 for check each cargo
20:03:43  <andythenorth> or (2) you need to check cargo explicitly, instead of relying on action 3
20:03:50  <Samu> or what will show on someone else that joins my game?
20:04:12  * Belugas yawns
20:04:19  * Belugas looks at the cafeteria dooe
20:04:27  <andythenorth> planetmaker: if you read tram wagon in conjunction with associated template, you'll see var 47 check for cargos
20:04:29  <Belugas> -e+r
20:04:39  <Samu> will it use the local setting or the scenario setting?
20:04:48  <Samu> meh, I give up
20:04:52  *** enr1x [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
20:05:07  <planetmaker> there is no scenario setting
20:05:25  <Belugas> there is no scenario setting
20:05:37  <planetmaker> :-)
20:05:49  <Samu> it didn't use my local setting that's for sure
20:06:52  *** Thror [~chatzilla@] has joined #openttd
20:06:57  <Thror> hi
20:08:32  <Nite> it is a LOCAL setting
20:08:38  <Nite> as said before
20:08:59  <Samu>
20:09:07  <Samu> join that game, tell me what you get
20:09:08  <Nite> every player chooses it seperately
20:09:30  <Nite> i will get what i have set
20:09:40  <Nite> will join in a minute
20:09:54  <andythenorth> frosch123: making the lateral offsets -ve for y direction works
20:10:22  <frosch123> :)
20:10:22  <andythenorth>
20:10:46  <andythenorth> next trick?
20:10:57  <andythenorth> loop through to provide n effect vehicles?
20:11:03  <andythenorth> store the offsets somewhere?
20:11:07  * andythenorth has no clue
20:11:13  <Samu> bug on start date
20:11:21  <Samu> the game started in 1975, not 1950
20:11:28  <Samu> same page
20:12:09  <frosch123> andythenorth: no idea, where shall the grf define the offsets?
20:12:12  <planetmaker> thanks andythenorth ! That did the trick :-)
20:12:20  <andythenorth> glad I can answer something :)
20:12:21  <planetmaker> I now have chemicals in flacons and barrels :-P
20:12:27  <andythenorth> normally I have to ask all the questions :|
20:12:50  <andythenorth> frosch123: seems like it has to be a cb result?
20:12:54  <andythenorth> too complicated for a prop
20:13:03  <andythenorth> or should the effect vehicle itself be newgrf definable?
20:13:12  <andythenorth> with a built in offset...
20:13:17  <supermop> chemicals in barrels on trams?
20:14:06  <planetmaker> nope, on a flatbed wagon for trains
20:14:50  <planetmaker> <-- those barrels, supermop
20:14:51  <supermop> exciting nonetheless!
20:14:58  <frosch123> andythenorth: question is, are the offsets fixed per enginetype (then they can be set using some action 0 property), or do they depend on refitting and such stuff (then you need a callback)
20:15:22  <frosch123> and as you likely cannot properly store the callback results in the Vehicle struct, you need to call n offsets everytime you want to create smoke
20:15:23  <andythenorth> frosch123: in my ship grf, they are fixed per engine type (currently)
20:15:42  <andythenorth> is making the effect vehicles newgrf definable out of the question?
20:15:53  <planetmaker> they aren't
20:16:06  <Prof_Frink> planetmaker: Needs more IBCs.
20:16:10  <planetmaker> unless you change them via an actionA
20:16:18  <frosch123> andythenorth: how does that relate to the effect position?
20:16:18  <planetmaker> IBC?
20:16:31  <andythenorth> frosch123: probably doesn't
20:16:46  <andythenorth> I was wondering if the effect vehicle to use could be specified
20:16:54  <andythenorth> then the offset could be stored in an effect vehicle
20:17:04  <andythenorth> along with amount of times to show smoke etc
20:17:08  <andythenorth> probably a *big* change
20:17:24  <Prof_Frink> planetmaker: The square plastic containers in metal cages
20:17:46  <frosch123> well, it is likely no big deal to use the vehicle action3 to also resolve the smoke sprite
20:17:53  <planetmaker> ah, you mean different ones?
20:18:00  <frosch123> but that is very different from defining smoke vehicles
20:18:01  <andythenorth> similar to buy menu sprite?
20:18:09  <frosch123> yes, like buy menu sprite
20:18:16  <andythenorth> what if there need to be n smoke sprites
20:18:22  <andythenorth> where n<5 in a sane world
20:18:32  <planetmaker> yes, they're in the planning.
20:18:58  <andythenorth> if n<=4, could the offsets be encoded in each byte of a dword?
20:19:04  *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
20:19:06  <frosch123> vehicle action2 offer you directions and loading stages. the latter could be used for the smokes evolving over time
20:19:29  <andythenorth> or check many other variables such as speed?
20:20:04  *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@] has joined #openttd
20:20:08  <andythenorth> that would only run when a new effect vehicle needs to be created?
20:20:34  <andythenorth> so only affects creation + position?  doesn't need to run all the time smoke vehicles are on the screen?
20:20:54  <frosch123> andythenorth: you could return the number of effects in the higher bits of cb10 result, and maybe return the positions in register 100, 101, ...
20:20:57  *** KritiK [] has joined #openttd
20:20:59  <Samu> i joined my own game
20:21:11  <frosch123> but i have no idea about the performance impact :)
20:21:21  <Samu> and I see km/h
20:21:22  <andythenorth> frosch123: have you recently added registers to vehicles :P
20:21:23  <andythenorth> ?
20:21:33  <Samu> but when i created the game it changed to mph
20:21:44  <frosch123> tempoary result registers, no persistent storage
20:21:45  <Samu> so it's on game creation
20:22:37  <frosch123> i mean, call the callback everytime a smoke cloud needs to be created, and the cb returns the amount of clouds and their positions. all at once in one cb
20:22:39  * andythenorth reads cb10 spec
20:22:46  <andythenorth> yep, makes perfect sense
20:22:55  <andythenorth> I like it so far :)
20:23:01  <Wolf01> gah... svn:externals target ^/foo/bar -> target what must be? it won't accept ../ or ./ or /, whatever I use it does make a new folder in my branch, I want it to be in the main folder instead
20:23:30  <frosch123> it is "subdirectory   svn-address"
20:23:53  <frosch123> so "foo  svn://bar" will checkout "bar" in a "foo" subdirectory
20:24:17  <andythenorth> frosch123: cb10 is not called very frequently yet
20:24:25  <frosch123> in the main folder? then you have to go one directory up
20:24:33  <frosch123> one folder can only belong to one repository
20:24:39  <Samu> omg, nite doesn't believe me
20:24:55  <frosch123> andythenorth: yup, you would need to change that
20:25:16  <frosch123> but only for the effect type and position, not for wagonpower and such crap
20:25:27  <andythenorth> ok
20:25:30  <Samu> when I created this server, I loaded a TTD scenario and even though I had km/h as my local setting, I see mph when playing
20:25:48  <Samu> whenever someone joins the game, it still gets the correct km/h though
20:25:55  <Samu> only the host gets the wrong setting
20:26:09  *** Biolunar [] has joined #openttd
20:26:10  <Wolf01> ok, right I mixed up things, the right one is svn:external target svn://myrepo/trunk where the target should be the branch root
20:26:37  <Wolf01> in fact if I write "target" it creates a folder with the trunk sources in it
20:26:54  <Wolf01> but I want the trunk sources directly in the root
20:27:30  <Nite> mom
20:27:41  <Wolf01> (I'm already at but I'm far to understand it)
20:28:27  <frosch123> Wolf01: as i said, one directory can only belong to one repository
20:28:43  <frosch123> so you cannot make an external checkout into .
20:28:51  <Wolf01> oh
20:29:09  <Nite> ok i believe you samu
20:29:09  <Belugas> ho ben...
20:29:39  <Belugas> Samu, i set my local config fr pounds,  ponds is what i got while spectating the game
20:29:44  <Belugas> tus...
20:29:47  <Belugas> thus
20:29:50  <Belugas> dos
20:30:31  <Samu> there is a bug when hosting TTD scenarios, that's all I can say
20:30:37  <Samu> original TTD
20:31:04  <Samu> the server listing says my game started in 1950, but the truth is it started in 1975
20:31:59  <Belugas> i do believe yu do think it's the case.  my eyes saw something different.
20:32:20  *** ar3k [] has quit [Quit: —I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— 3.2 (July '10)]
20:34:13  <Samu> :(
20:34:55  <Belugas> maybe you could try to reproduce it and document it.  I'm not saying there is no bug, jsut that i have not witness what you claimed
20:35:01  * andythenorth wonders where cb10 lives in src
20:35:13  <Samu> to reproduce is easy
20:35:19  <Samu> start openttd
20:35:24  <Samu> multiplayer
20:35:27  <Samu> create server
20:35:36  <Samu> load that original scenario
20:35:40  <Samu> that's it
20:35:57  <Samu> you get changed from km/h to mph
20:36:11  <Samu> but anyone else that joins gets whatever they have
20:36:36  <andythenorth> frosch123: is this smoke thing quite big for a 'my first patch' attempt?
20:36:36  <Samu> masterserver also says the game starts in 1950, but the scenario starts in 1975
20:36:51  <andythenorth> except in my case it's more like 'my third or fourth attempt, the rest failed' :P
20:36:59  <Rubidium> Samu: those old games miss game start year, so the default is used
20:37:22  <Samu> ah
20:37:23  <Rubidium> likewise old games apparantly store the units in the savegame, so those are loaded
20:37:35  <Rubidium> units as in km/h and mph
20:38:04  <Samu> wow, someone believes me
20:38:20  <frosch123> andythenorth: might be :p
20:38:36  <andythenorth> extending cbs is probably beyond me
20:38:44  <Samu> thx rubidium
20:40:13  * andythenorth waves at Terkhen
20:42:00  <Samu> could there be a solution rubidium?
20:42:39  <Samu> load original scenario, convert, load converted scenario, advertise on masterserver?
20:52:31  <supermop> in an action 1, when i say, 8 sets, 2 views per set, what if anything does that mean
20:53:01  <supermop> does that affect anything?
20:54:56  <Belugas> haaaa... yes... the conversion process.. makes sense
20:55:31  <andythenorth> supermop: did you figure it out yet?
20:55:51  <supermop> nope
20:55:54  <supermop> well
20:55:59  <supermop> i have some hunches
20:56:02  <andythenorth> you're doing stations?
20:56:06  <supermop> yeah
20:56:12  <supermop> for mlss
20:56:22  <andythenorth> for vehicles, the sets group realsprites for following action 2s
20:56:23  <supermop> i am trying to make tiles with smart fences
20:56:41  <andythenorth> so a vehicle might have 4 sets, 8 views per set
20:56:46  <andythenorth> then 4 action 2 IDs
20:56:52  <supermop> i have 16 action 2s
20:57:08  <andythenorth> I've never done stations
20:57:12  <supermop> so i was thinking i would do 10 02
20:57:16  <andythenorth> for industries, iirc, the sets are not needed
20:57:19  <supermop> 16 sets, 2 views
20:57:24  <andythenorth> supermop: you're using nfo?
20:57:27  <supermop> but its very redundant
20:57:30  <supermop> yep
20:57:33  <andythenorth> use escapes for prop. counts etc
20:57:40  <andythenorth> \b16 instead of 10
20:57:54  <supermop> i dont understand anything in that sentence
20:58:01  <supermop> what is an escape/
20:58:14  <andythenorth> I'll find the wiki page for you
20:58:51  <andythenorth> supermop:
20:59:01  <supermop> anyway, i only need to define 5 sprites,
20:59:08  <supermop> but i need 16 sets
20:59:20  <andythenorth> hmm
20:59:24  <andythenorth> I don't know about stations
20:59:27  <supermop> so each sprite needs tto be redefined up to 16 times
20:59:36  <supermop> it seems very inefficient
20:59:49  <andythenorth> let me look at stations
21:00:04  <supermop> its pretty confusing
21:00:42  <andythenorth> hmm
21:00:52  <andythenorth> stations can't composite graphics?
21:01:09  <planetmaker> they can.
21:01:17  <planetmaker> from what I figured from the wiki
21:01:32  <andythenorth> can't be true
21:01:32  <andythenorth> thought so
21:01:45  <supermop>  i mean
21:02:09  <supermop> i just want to say: turn this sprite on or off based on this varacton 2
21:02:32  <supermop> but i cant, i have to chose a whole different set of sprites
21:02:38  <supermop> as far as i can tell
21:02:40  <andythenorth> supermop: you might need to explain a bit more
21:02:46  <supermop> ok
21:02:59  <supermop> well a plain empty tile with a fence
21:03:12  <planetmaker> supermop: it might somewhat be easier, if you had some sample code to discuss. One version which works, but doesn't quite yet do what you want. And one where you think it works
21:03:27  <supermop> ok
21:03:29  <planetmaker> in the way you want it to work
21:03:37  <andythenorth>
21:03:41  <supermop> its pretty long
21:03:46  <supermop> what is that?
21:03:51  <planetmaker> a website
21:04:00  <supermop> oh neat
21:04:25  <andythenorth> "A station should normally be 12 (hex) because a station is made out of 18 (decimal) sprites, although if you use a different sprite layout for your station this number may vary."
21:05:20  <supermop> yeah
21:05:44  <supermop> none of my tiles have been 12 so far
21:06:02  <andythenorth> supermop: paste some code...
21:10:08  <supermop> yeah, i am just editing it first
21:10:10  <supermop> ok
21:11:27  <supermop>
21:11:41  <supermop> he action 0 isnt done yet, and will need to be really big
21:13:00  <planetmaker>              08 "MLYT"                                    // Place in "MLSS" Category <-- I like that ;-)
21:13:08  <supermop> oops
21:13:37  * andythenorth doesn't understand stations
21:13:59  <supermop> me neither
21:14:50  <supermop> i wanted to go back and add automatic fences to aall of the tiles
21:15:02  * planetmaker unfortunately neither. <-- Did you maybe look there for a hint?
21:15:04  <supermop> but it doesnt look reasonable
21:15:13  <andythenorth> I thought stations would be like industry tiles :P
21:15:16  <andythenorth> seems not
21:15:25  <planetmaker> not exactly, no
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21:18:57  <andythenorth> for industry tiles the action 1 real sprites can just be reused :P
21:19:02  <andythenorth> stations seems a bit bonkers
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21:19:38  <supermop> i guess a question that would help would be:
21:19:50  <supermop> do all action 1 sets have to be the same size?
21:19:57  <andythenorth> no
21:20:00  <frosch123> yes
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21:20:09  <frosch123> but you can put empty sprites there
21:20:13  <supermop> yeah
21:20:32  <andythenorth> you can use multiple action 1s
21:20:38  <supermop> thats what i am doing, and in may sets over half the sprites are solid blue
21:20:43  <frosch123> however, most station coders seem to use very few action1, that is only 1 set, and do the rest with the spritelayouts
21:21:01  <andythenorth> where are the spritelayouts for stations?  I can't find them
21:21:19  <supermop> i am using 1 action 1 per station type
21:21:22  <frosch123> i.e. put all sprites in one set, and then select in the spritelayout which sprites to use, and where to put them
21:21:47  <frosch123> supermop: but you have a lot of duplicate sprites there
21:21:53  <supermop> yeah
21:21:57  <frosch123> you have one set per tile
21:22:03  <supermop> i cannot figure how else to do this one
21:22:18  <frosch123> alternatively you can have 1 set of all tiles, but 1 layout for each tile
21:23:03  <andythenorth> action 0 for a station defines the tile?
21:23:06  <andythenorth> dumb question
21:23:24  <planetmaker> andythenorth: there's a property for action0 which holds the tile layouts.
21:23:30  <andythenorth> so it seems :)
21:23:32  <frosch123> andythenorth: the spritelayout which industries and houses define in action2, is defined in action 0 for stations
21:23:37  <andythenorth> prop 09
21:23:57  <andythenorth> that's what I was looking for :)
21:24:00  <supermop> and this can only layout 8 views
21:24:04  <andythenorth> I knew I'd seen it before somewhere
21:24:04  <supermop> i think
21:24:18  <frosch123> in the end you can select the spritelayout using cb14, and the sprites to actually use in the layout using the normal action123 chain
21:24:27  <supermop> up until now i have only needed 2 views for each though
21:24:49  <frosch123> supermop: no, stationsets can have hundreds of layouts
21:24:51  <supermop> yeah
21:24:54  <frosch123> but you have to use callbacks for that
21:26:03  <supermop> so my current approach is as follows:
21:26:05  <Samu> paxlink is making some plane jams at some airport
21:26:15  <Samu> first time I see it surviving
21:27:23  <supermop> action 3 and 4 say, here is a tile called "brick fence tile",
21:27:38  *** robert-qfh [] has joined #openttd
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21:27:57  <supermop> then varaction 2 asks 'how many tiles are there in each direction of this one?'
21:28:30  <supermop> 'is it 0 or more than 0 for each direction?'
21:29:20  <supermop> then varaction 2 places the tile in one of 16 possible ranges based on whether the station continues in the 4 direction
21:29:52  <robert-qfh> yesterday i set up a dedicated openttd server (1.0.5) and loaded my savegame. two clients connected, a windows7 one and one on mac os. the server used around 90% cpu, the mac os client around 90% and the win7 machine only ~5%. how can that be? isn't the simulation taking place on all three machines?
21:30:01  <supermop> each of those 16 ranges have an action 2 to select sprites to draw if that range is correct
21:30:59  <frosch123> yes, you use those rules to select an action1 set to use for the layoutr
21:31:00  <andythenorth> supermop: sounds plausible :P
21:31:00  <supermop> and then each action  2 needs an action 1 set of sprites to use
21:31:07  <andythenorth> and also like a lot of work :D
21:31:55  <supermop> so there is a sprite for a fence on each edge of the tile, plus one for the ground
21:32:00  <supermop> 5 sprites
21:32:33  <supermop> but for each action 1 set, some fences will be drawn, and some will not
21:33:10  <supermop> so the northwest fence needs to be redefined for every set that contains aa northwest fence
21:33:10  <Samu> there's a reason mac os are powerfull machines, lol
21:33:35  <Samu> they blow the competition
21:34:00  <Terkhen> hello
21:34:02  <supermop> and the blue sprite needs to be defined again every time a set doesnt draw one of the fences
21:34:11  <supermop> hello
21:34:15  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
21:34:23  <andythenorth> Terkhen: fancy taking up smoking?
21:34:48  <planetmaker> robert-qfh: every machine calcuates everything, yes. The clients hav a considerable overhead by calculating the graphics; something the server doesn't have to do
21:35:38  <planetmaker> comparing how well different machines do, doesn't tell much... as you already told, even windows can do quite different, depending on hardware etc pp
21:35:58  <robert-qfh> planetmaker: that's what i thought, too, thanks. maybe the win7 version uses a different code path for the wayfinding?
21:36:01  <Terkhen> andythenorth: the bad habit or the OpenTTD feature?
21:36:08  <andythenorth> the feature
21:36:24  <andythenorth> I can help - for what that's worth :P
21:36:24  <robert-qfh> there's a huge amount of trains on that map (1100+), so i'm pretty sure that's the bottleneck
21:36:28  <planetmaker> robert-qfh: definitely not for the game core
21:36:34  <robert-qfh> the game plays fine though if mac os x is the server
21:36:56  <Terkhen> can you summarize the issue with the current implementation for me? you have talked too much this evening :P
21:37:08  <andythenorth> Terkhen: how about I write a draft spec?
21:37:56  <planetmaker> robert-qfh: 1k+ trains is about what many computers start to feel their CPU hardware limits
21:37:57  <robert-qfh> okay maybe i got tricked by the task manager because the win7 machine has 8 cores and the load might have been spread evenly across all cpus
21:38:04  <robert-qfh> i will recheck that next time
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21:38:21  <Terkhen> IIRC the problem was making smoke come from the right position and from multiple positions?
21:38:22  <planetmaker> and: only the %usage of a _single_ core is interesting
21:38:28  <robert-qfh> planetmaker: yes :) we're kind of using openttd as a benchmark for new machines ;)
21:38:48  <andythenorth> Terkhen: yes
21:38:57  <andythenorth> draw n effect vehicles
21:39:05  <planetmaker> robert-qfh: not necessarily a good idea.
21:39:07  <andythenorth> and position them at x, y, z offsets
21:39:18  <planetmaker> OpenTTD makes no use of multi-threading (except when saving games)
21:39:31  <robert-qfh> hehe not seriously, but if a notebook can't run our savegame, it just doesn't do :p
21:39:34  <andythenorth> and (ideally) more control over when an effect vehicle is drawn
21:40:31  <robert-qfh> anyway, do you think there's much left to optimize the path finder?
21:41:06  <Terkhen> since it makes sense to control this via NewGRF, I guess that a spec should be the first step
21:41:42  <Samu> which one is the least cpu instensive pathfinder?
21:41:58  <glx> robert-qfh: openttd uses only 1 core
21:42:36  <robert-qfh> glx: yes, too bad. probably hard to be deterministic when using multiple cores
21:42:42  <Zuu> Samu: depends on which vehicle type I would guess.
21:42:46  <glx> exactly
21:43:01  <Samu> hmm, for each vehicle type then
21:43:41  <glx> well it can use another core when saving as that is done in another thread
21:43:44  <Samu> cpu usage right now peaks at 17%
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21:43:50  <Samu> 1 core
21:43:56  <Samu> goes from 0% to 17%
21:44:16  <Samu> there's about 500 road vehicles by moguls ai
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21:45:21  <andythenorth> Terkhen: some basic spec:
21:45:31  <Samu> it's not a dedicated server though
21:46:33  <Samu> peaks at 48% when not minimized
21:46:42  <Terkhen> hmmm... callbacks had 16 bits but many of them only used the lower 8, right?
21:46:53  <frosch123> s/16/15/
21:46:58  <planetmaker> 15
21:47:21  <glx> bit 15 is to know it's a result ;)
21:47:25  <roelmb> How does any vehicle know if it can be build in a depot/hangar? I'm searching for it in the source code but can't really find it.
21:48:01  <frosch123> all vehicles are build in depots/hangars :s
21:48:15  <frosch123> do you maybe mean the date of availibitlity?
21:48:22  <roelmb> yea but how can a vehicle know that where is it declared in the code?
21:48:41  <glx> the vehicle doesn't know IIRC
21:48:48  <frosch123> the default vehicles are in src/table/engines.h or so
21:48:54  <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you want to see something fun, use more than the lower 8 bits in CB36 for road vehicle/ship speed
21:49:54  <andythenorth> what happens?
21:50:00  <andythenorth> or do I have to compile and see?
21:50:04  <andythenorth> overflows to negative
21:50:04  <andythenorth> ?
21:50:10  <Terkhen> no, both callbacks have support in trunk
21:50:23  <Terkhen> in the ship case, madness, in the road vehicle case... crazy speeds
21:51:03  <frosch123> i guess the ship acceleration code can only deal with 8 bit speeds :)
21:51:25  <frosch123> (like it was for all vehicles once)
21:51:33  <Terkhen> yes, it lowers to 0 at some point and then starts cycling, although the GUI handles it correctly
21:51:59  <Terkhen> I wonder what should be done with this problem, either limit the ship callback to only use the 8 lower bits, or fix the ship code
21:52:09  * Terkhen is inclined to do the first one
21:52:24  <frosch123> certainly easier :p
21:52:42  <frosch123> anyway, trains and rv already got new movement code for moving more than one tick
21:52:59  <frosch123> about planes i do not know :s
21:53:13  <Terkhen> yes, for rvs the problem is not that big
21:53:32  <Terkhen> even if the callback allows it to get a speed that is impossible using only the properties, at least they don't break
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21:53:48  <frosch123> hmm, i would expect rvs to just work
21:53:56  <frosch123> what's wrong with them?
21:54:30  <Terkhen> nothing, only that it is not really documented anywhere that using the callback they can reach a speed that is usually impossible
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21:54:50  <frosch123> that holds for almost all cb 36 results
21:54:57  <frosch123> also for capacity and such
21:55:01  <planetmaker> he
21:55:13  <Terkhen> hmm... then the problem is only present for ships
21:55:35  <Terkhen> at least in the speed case
21:55:43  <frosch123> though 15 bit results likely work in ottd in more cases than in ttdp
21:55:57  <frosch123> ttdp has some vehicle callback wrapper which masks to 8 bits in many cases
21:56:52  <Terkhen> yes, I guess that in most cases it is undocumented behaviour
21:57:37  <Samu> can I rename a company name for someone? I already know how to name a client
21:58:41  <Samu> I don't like 'Player Transport'
22:02:15  <planetmaker> join the company and rename it?
22:03:12  <planetmaker> [22:58]	<Terkhen>	yes, I guess that in most cases it is undocumented behaviour <-- now it's documented ;-) For those browsing IRC logs :-P
22:03:41  <Terkhen> :)
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22:07:33  <frosch123> night
22:07:37  *** frosch123 [] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
22:07:44  <andythenorth> good night
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22:08:58  <Samu> I keep getting client #36 is slow, try increasing ...
22:09:03  <Samu> but it's already at 15
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22:09:51  <Rubidium> it's occasionally also shown when connections get lost
22:10:19  <Rubidium> though that got changed recently in trunk
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22:14:23  <Zuu> Hmm, does waypoints cost maintanence?
22:15:16  <Zuu> Otherwise I came up with a wild idea to use them as storage place for AI state information for processes such as upgrading airports. :-)
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22:23:24  <Samu> a dead truck blocks all the other trucks behind
22:23:32  <Samu> :(
22:24:15  <Samu> buff it pls
22:25:04  * Zuu get the idea of puting an OpenTTD server plus many multiplayer clients using AI companies to do the actual playing in order to look for desyncs.
22:26:40  <Samu> overtake the dead truck
22:26:58  <Samu> they currently wait in a long line for the dead truck to disappear
22:27:05  <SmatZ> Zuu: is that worth the effort? I haven't encountered a desync for very long time :)
22:27:25  <Zuu> I don't know, but maybe cargodist folks might have use for it.
22:27:29  <Samu> I found some desyncs, mainly when loading save games
22:27:37  <SmatZ> ok, true
22:28:29  <Zuu> As far as I've heard it is a really simple code change to allow AIs to play as clients in multiplayer.
22:28:38  *** Adambean [AdamR@] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing]
22:28:50  <SmatZ> yeah, but you have to run the server and clients :)
22:28:57  <SmatZ> with desync debug
22:29:11  <Samu> how can I report a desync?
22:29:22  <SmatZ> but if it finds even one desync reason, it will be useful :)
22:29:24  <Samu> it happens sometimes
22:29:38  <Zuu> Samu: What OpenTTD version?
22:29:44  <SmatZ> Samu: it's better to run the server and clients with desync debug
22:29:46  <Samu> it was 1.0.4
22:29:52  <SmatZ> or have a procedure to reproduce it
22:29:56  <Samu> haven't tried loading a 1.0.5 game yet
22:29:57  <SmatZ> else it's almost unfixable
22:30:32  <Zuu> SmatZ: Possible at someones spare computer. Like I've got an amd64 3500+ standing doing nothing. - though it is quite noisy.
22:30:56  <Samu> I buy it
22:31:04  <Samu> how much do you want for it, lol :)
22:31:12  <SmatZ> Zuu: ok, thanks :)
22:31:36  <Zuu> hehe, I will need it whenever I need to fix something on OpenTTD Auto Update, at least untill I get around to merge the source code to my laptop.
22:32:24  <Samu> desync debug, how do I do that? is it a command line?
22:32:39  <Zuu> Samu: It is a tedious task
22:33:00  <Zuu> IIRC there is a wiki page about it.
22:33:02  <SmatZ> Samu: if the procedure is "start server, join with clients, load this game, wait for desync", then it is simple enough :)
22:33:35  <SmatZ>
22:33:38  <Samu> no, it is a loaded game as the server
22:33:52  <Samu> I load a saved game of a previous hosted server
22:33:59  <SmatZ> not sure how recent is that text
22:34:21  <Zuu> Samu: Try to load that game as singleplayer. Open the console and type 'gamelog'
22:34:34  <Samu> er, ok, I'm saving this game
22:34:49  <Zuu> If it says something about changing NewGRFs then it is probably not so interesting for debugging desyncs.
22:34:51  <glx> SmatZ: I'd say the wiki is outdated (last edit in 2008)
22:36:04  <SmatZ> I think all you need now is to run openttd -d desync=9
22:36:19  <Samu> gamelog start
22:36:19  <Zuu> and possible storing all the output?
22:36:26  <Samu> tick 0 - game loaded
22:36:37  <Samu> conversion from TTD savegame
22:36:37  <SmatZ> Samu: please don't pastet whole log here :p
22:36:53  <Samu> revision text changed to 1.0.5
22:36:56  <Samu> ok, where do I put it?
22:37:01  <Zuu> you can use for example.
22:37:23  <SmatZ> is dead...
22:37:42  <Zuu> or some random pastebin like eg
22:38:09  <Zuu> SmatZ: Ok, perhaps more reasonable to leach on some other pastebin as they probably collect quite a bit spam.
22:39:54  <planetmaker> Zuu	get the idea of puting an OpenTTD server plus many multiplayer clients using AI companies to do the actual playing in order to look for desyncs. <-- if you need a server for that, give a shout
22:40:20  * Zuu goes to bed - night all
22:40:27  <planetmaker> g'night, Zuu
22:40:55  <SmatZ> good night Zuu
22:44:37  <Samu> hey
22:44:40  <Samu> i had to type it all
22:44:41  <Samu>
22:46:40  <Samu> i made a typo, i hope i can edit
22:47:00  <glx> why not redirect to a file ?
22:47:11  <glx> easier to copy/paste
22:47:36  <glx> that log is useless
22:47:44  <SmatZ> Samu: thanks, interesting :) so when you load this game at server and then join with a client, client will desync?
22:48:01  <Samu> typo was the grf version
22:48:05  <Samu> ends with a e, not with a r
22:48:27  <Samu> yes, usually the first clients
22:48:33  <Samu> then it fixes itself somehow
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22:49:03  <SmatZ> Samu: then open a bugreport at , hope it will not be hard to trace and fix :)
22:49:18  <glx> and provide the savegame
22:49:32  <SmatZ> and exact procedure how to reproduce :)
22:49:37  <SmatZ> even when it fails in "most" cases
22:50:13  <Samu> ok
22:50:24  <Samu> I will try to get it to happen
22:50:30  <Samu> have to hope someone to join
22:51:36  <SmatZ> you can join to your server, if you can run the client
22:52:00  <supermop> is there any limit to the number of sprites i can position in an action 0 block?
22:52:18  <supermop> i have about 60
22:56:05  <Hirundo> there is no such thing as 'sprites' in an 'action0 block'
22:56:47  <supermop> ok
22:57:02  <supermop> prop. 09 block inside an action 0
22:57:13  <Hirundo> what feature?
22:57:18  <supermop> stations
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22:58:56  <Hirundo> There limit that applies here is probably the max sprite size of 64kib
22:59:45  <supermop> its essentially the same 6 sprites being defined repeatedly
23:01:13  <Samu> lol, some guy on my server did some evil thing :)
23:03:16  <Samu> human nature is mean, seriously, I hoped there were better people around here
23:03:34  <glx> on internet ?
23:04:02  <Samu> this guy blocks a dock by adding terrain in front of it
23:04:12  <Samu> then builts a train station on top of it
23:04:25  <Hirundo> supermop: why do you need to define them repeatedly?
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23:04:52  <Samu> the other guy was the one transporting goods
23:04:56  <Samu> now it's him
23:04:56  <__ln___> train stations need to be built
23:05:09  <Nite> whats meant by "on top of it" ?
23:05:23  <Samu> on top of terrain that is now blocking the dock exit to sea
23:10:24  <Samu> I think he has destroyed about 300 mogul trucks by now
23:10:34  <Samu> hence his name
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23:30:23  <Samu> interesting exploit I just found
23:31:09  <Samu> while dragging main OpenTTD window, the server pauses for all clients
23:31:40  <Samu> wondering if I can disconnect ppl this way
23:33:08  <glx> you can
23:34:03  <Samu> that's evil
23:35:13  <Samu> a similar exploit existed in war3 running in window mode, a losing player could 'disconnect' the winner
23:35:19  <Samu> anyway to fix it?
23:35:23  <glx> no
23:35:26  <Samu> :(
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23:35:34  <glx> it's how windows work
23:35:56  <Samu> blizzard entertainment was able to fix it though (sorry for comparison)
23:36:14  <glx> and it's not important as most servers are dedicated ;)
23:38:23  <planetmaker> a host can always fool its clients
23:40:16  <supermop> hirundo: sorry, was out of the room, its really involves, but i can explain it if you like
23:42:43  <Xaroth> Samu: it wasn't a fix, it was a dodgy workaround
23:42:43  <Samu> is the town able to reconstruct missing road tiles?
23:43:40  <Samu> I noticed this guy also removed some road tiles from some towns that had paxlink buses
23:43:49  <Samu> but the town didn't reconnect
23:43:56  <Samu> yet it kept on expanding
23:44:52  <Samu> expanding outside the town borders, not sure if you understand what I mean
23:47:25  <glx> Samu: anyway it's easier to just open the window menu to freeze the window
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23:52:33  <Samu> private message, talk to company, talk to all, give money, ban, ban?
23:52:39  <Samu> there are 2 bans?
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23:56:19  <Samu> omg, I banned someone by mistake, how do I unban
23:56:47  <SmatZ> Samu: "unban"
23:56:58  <SmatZ> Samu: or just "banlist" "unban #"
23:57:11  <SmatZ> where # is the item number in the banlist
23:57:58  <Samu> wondering if he will come back
23:58:05  <SmatZ> I doubt
23:58:23  <Samu> the first ban is kick, the second ban is real ban
23:58:31  <Samu> translation error perhaps?
23:58:37  <SmatZ> ?
23:58:41  <SmatZ> ban = kickban
23:58:46  <SmatZ> kick = kick
23:59:08  <SmatZ> console commands are not translated
23:59:12  <Samu> private message, talk to company, talk to all, give money, ban, ban?
23:59:17  <SmatZ> hmm
23:59:20  <Samu> i'll check in english
23:59:22  <SmatZ> what is your language?
23:59:28  <Samu> portuguese
23:59:46  <SmatZ> STR_NETWORK_CLIENTLIST_KICK                                     :Banir
23:59:48  <SmatZ> STR_NETWORK_CLIENTLIST_BAN                                      :Banir
23:59:49  <SmatZ> hah
23:59:57  <SmatZ> kick your translator :P

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