Log for #openttd on 6th December 2010:
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00:14:15  <__ln__> what kind of a kingdom outsources the security of the royal family to an italian plumber?
00:19:32  <Terkhen> good night
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01:07:41  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: what kind of papal entity outsources his security to some swiss guys, who haven't fought a war in 500 years?
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02:41:19  <Callidus> hello
02:47:24  <supermop> hi
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04:08:55  <Callidus> anyone in here alive? : p
04:09:50  <supermop> i would hope that I am alive
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04:59:53  <Callidus> I need a hand. I cant seem to get my switches inside my cloverleaf 4 way intersection to work (train)
05:00:17  <supermop> i might not be the best person to ask
05:00:29  <supermop> but if you show me a picture I can help
05:00:41  <supermop> i usually build more realistic junctions
05:00:46  <Callidus> like?
05:01:11  <Callidus> im honestly having a hard time wrapping my head around switches in the first place. placing all 2 ways made my train loop
05:01:54  <supermop> when you say switches, you mean like a simple branching junction? or like some kind of logic gate?
05:02:37  <Callidus> erm
05:02:41  <Callidus> the things with lights
05:02:50  <Callidus> so if a trains on it its red and stops crashes
05:03:00  <supermop> ah
05:03:03  <supermop> a signal
05:03:06  <Callidus> also i must turn off the music or lower the volume at all costs D:
05:03:57  <supermop> i usually just listen to music in itunes or on my record player while playing
05:04:21  <Callidus> how do i turn it off ingame then?
05:04:53  <Rubidium> Callidus: please show a screenshot of the junction
05:05:32  <supermop> click the little speaker icon 3rd from right on the toolbar
05:05:57  <Callidus> oh thank god...
05:06:00  <Callidus> ok.
05:06:14  <supermop> anyway
05:06:15  <Callidus> ( i love tycoon games. this one looks amazing. Wish i had picked it up as a kid.
05:06:19  <supermop> so junctions
05:06:29  <Callidus> yeah uploading  a screenie
05:07:01  <supermop> if you do not understand signals yet, you may want to start with some simple flat junctions
05:07:16  <Callidus> is there a prefered site for me to load to?
05:08:00  <supermop> anywhere, but the forums could work too
05:10:51  <Callidus> what area of the forums do you want me to drop it in?
05:10:57  <Callidus> off topic, general?
05:11:22  <supermop> um rubidium, where do you think is best? general ottd?
05:12:03  <Rubidium> one of those image pastebins?
05:12:25  <Callidus> i was posting it on the forum
05:12:37  <Callidus> ill pastebin tho
05:12:42  <supermop> ok
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05:15:50  <Callidus> a sec, i
05:16:11  <Callidus> ow.
05:16:13  <Callidus> thats... odd.
05:16:24  <Callidus> must be 2 monitor setup messing with printscreen
05:17:06  <Callidus> anyway the important part can be seen on the bottom left
05:17:16  <Callidus>
05:18:14  <supermop> i am going to venture that you probably do not need something that big
05:18:53  <Callidus> not yet.
05:19:01  <Callidus> : P
05:19:07  <Callidus> i prepare ahead.
05:19:30  <Rubidium> take a look at to see how you should place the signals on the junction
05:19:34  <Callidus> and it would have been simpler if not for drunpool
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05:19:59  <supermop> well,  first i will say that on the south side of that tunnel, the depression is not needed
05:20:50  <Callidus> i was trying to see if given more room the funnel would appear less... squashed. it didnt.
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05:24:14  <supermop> well
05:25:35  <supermop> first things first
05:25:41  <supermop> when placing a signal
05:25:53  <supermop> click it again to switch to one-way
05:27:14  <Callidus> oh ok.
05:27:22  <Callidus> so how do i tell which way the line will go?
05:27:36  <Callidus> i take it if the lights facing one way thats the way the train will come from?
05:27:50  <supermop> if you click again, it will be one way in the opposite direction
05:27:54  <supermop> yes
05:28:07  <supermop> imagine that the driver needs to see the lights
05:29:37  <supermop> for the station entrances,
05:29:51  <supermop> ideally they should be farther away from the junction,
05:30:08  <supermop> but you will want to use a pre signal or a path signal
05:30:30  <supermop> its probably easiest to just go ahead and learn the path signals now
05:31:50  <supermop> does your signal tool show a grid of 5 signal types, or just 'signals'
05:37:19  <Callidus> 2x 12
05:37:27  <Callidus> with a selection tool that has a number
05:37:34  <Callidus> and a signal that has an arrow
05:37:44  <Callidus> 2x14 actually
05:37:50  <Callidus> 12 appear cosmetic
05:38:39  <supermop> ok
05:38:53  <supermop> well the path signals
05:39:07  <supermop> are i think the 5th and 6th maybe?
05:39:24  <supermop> not sure if yo have a new grf that is adding more types
05:40:25  <Callidus> uh oh.
05:40:32  <Callidus> the ones that look taller?
05:40:38  <Callidus> and have a green light instead?
05:40:51  <supermop> hmm
05:41:07  <Callidus> they cant be placed 2 way just one?
05:41:11  <supermop> yes
05:41:24  <supermop> one has a red sign on the back, the other does not
05:42:09  <supermop> so path signals work a little differently
05:42:24  <supermop> instead of dividing the track into blocks,
05:42:55  <supermop> they denote a tile as a safe place for a train to wait to proceed
05:43:09  <supermop> this means
05:43:20  <supermop> that on the X in front of the station
05:43:35  <Callidus> (the x was removed)
05:43:47  <supermop> you can have two trains in the junction at a tie, so long as their paths do not cross
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05:44:29  <Callidus> is there a tutorial on these?
05:44:33  <supermop> i think so
05:44:49  <supermop> it might be easier to learn by trial and error
05:44:54  <supermop> thats what i did
05:45:05  <supermop> but follow that link that rubidium sent
05:46:01  <Callidus> so..
05:46:06  <Callidus> theres 2 kinds.
05:46:14  <Callidus> which one is that tutorial using?
05:46:38  <Callidus> are they called pre signals btw?
05:49:30  <Callidus> gah
05:49:32  <Callidus> so many kinds
05:49:39  <Callidus> take a look. they all are actually different
05:49:42  <Callidus>
05:50:53  <supermop> yeah
05:51:07  <supermop> if you scroll down, path signals are below
05:51:21  <supermop> i think they are easier than pre signals
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06:15:51  <Callidus> how can i make cities like me?
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07:41:11  <Terkhen> good morning
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10:40:49  <__ln__> happy fourth of july
10:41:28  <peter1138> eh?
10:43:43  <SpComb> quite
10:47:17  <Eddi|zuHause> ... it's called "Nikolaus" over here... :p
10:49:19  <dih> but roughly resembles the same ...?
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10:55:55  <fjb> Moin
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11:42:12  <roboboy> hello
11:47:23  <Ammler> Saletti Spaghetti
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11:53:27  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21418 /trunk/src/network/core/core.h: -Fix: core.h needs config.h
11:55:22  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21419 /extra/masterserver_updater/docs/mysql-database-structure.sql: [MSU] -Fix: database structure didn't get imported correctly
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11:57:13  <planetmaker> moin
11:57:59  <Rubidium> moi
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12:00:52  <George> Hi
12:01:14  <George> By default indutry tiles animation is syncronized
12:01:32  <George> that means the cage hapen at the same time on all the tiles
12:01:44  <George> That's correct behaviour by default
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12:02:08  <George> Is it posible to make them desync without using CB27?
12:03:08  <George> I maen make them happen not at the same time
12:06:24  <Rubidium> animation frame is nothing more than a variable that is updated every now and then which you then use to determine which graphics to draw, right?
12:08:16  <Rubidium> if so, can't you add the relative position to the animation frame, perform a modulo on that and use the result as "animation frame" to determine the to be used graphics on?
12:12:47  <planetmaker> or add a tile-randome number with modulo
12:28:38  <George> you have misunderstood the question
12:28:58  <George> I do not mean to have different frame
12:29:11  <George> I mean to change the frame in the different time
12:29:26  <George> Now all the tiles change the frame at the same time
12:30:28  <George> because prop 10 is high (07), it is easily seen
12:31:08  <George> I want for this particular tile to have it happen with the same delay but not at once
12:32:07  <George> it is possible to return random value in CB 27 and then return the same value, but CB27 eats much CPU, so I'm lookong for solution that does not use CB 27
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12:59:40  <George> Rubidium: ?
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13:59:37  <roboboy> gnight
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14:19:44  <fonsinchen> What's going on with saveload recently? Will there be a completely new saveload system? What will it look like?
14:22:16  <Ammler> it is already in trunk, afaik
14:22:18  <Eddi|zuHause> as far as i have seen, it's just separating the compression/storing/transferring separated from the savegame content generation
14:22:53  <Eddi|zuHause> nothing patchers should be concerned about
14:23:12  <fonsinchen> ok.
14:24:14  <Belugas> hello
14:25:14  <fonsinchen> I see ... we have 4 different compression methods there.
14:25:18  <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: main issue was people getting thrown out due to the server being overloaded with large savegames. so now the savegame handling is more separate from the game, and transferring can start before compression has been finished
14:25:52  <Ammler> the server doesn't write a save to the disk anymore
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14:28:27  <fonsinchen> nice. Can you actually configure the compression method somewhere? I'd like to have uncompressed saves sometimes.
14:28:32  <Xaroth> hm, I might be wrong, but in network_admin.cpp @ line 373-388 .. is it me or is the 'company_stats->num*' lines wrong?
14:28:38  <Xaroth> as it's doing a for all on 'company' ..
14:29:21  <Rubidium> fonsinchen: you could already for a long time. It's a setting in openttd.cfg ([misc].savegame_format)
14:29:26  <Xaroth> my lib is receiving the stats of 2 companies economy wise (which is the function above it).. but while receiving twice, it gets the proper companyid, yet the wrong data
14:29:39  <Rubidium> for LZMA and Zlib you can even configure the compression level
14:30:04  <Rubidium> e.g. lzma:9
14:30:32  <fonsinchen> oh, nice
14:30:57  <Rubidium> none is the one that doesn't do any compression
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14:33:11  <m2rt> Hey! What was the openttd.cfg field that made sure that the game uses less bandwidth to communicate with clients in multiplayer?
14:33:19  <m2rt> I can't find it anymore...
14:34:28  <Eddi|zuHause> frame_freq
14:35:35  <Xaroth> bah, no msvc to make a proper patch for this bug
14:36:05  <m2rt> Thanks Eddi|zuHause !!!! You are golden!
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14:36:21  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. obviously.
14:36:27  <Xaroth> hehe
14:37:07  * fonsinchen finally cleans up the cargodist station gui now.
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14:39:16  * Xaroth pokes dih
14:39:31  <dih> eh?
14:39:35  <Xaroth> ooh, he's here
14:39:44  <Xaroth> you're working on joan right
14:39:47  <dih> aye
14:39:52  <dih> and grapes
14:40:01  <dih> what can i do you for?
14:40:23  <Xaroth> working on my python lib.. think i found something odd
14:41:03  <Xaroth> I got a map with 2 companies, 1 newly made
14:41:26  <Xaroth> i'm getting 2 ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_STATS, obviously.. yet the 2nd has the same stats as the first, with just the company index different
14:41:39  <Xaroth> while I'm pretty sure 1 train and 2 stations != 4 trains and 5 stations
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14:41:50  <dih> heh
14:41:58  <Rubidium> Xaroth: ?
14:42:15  <Xaroth> Rubidium: let me try
14:42:22  <dih> ohhhhh
14:42:37  <dih> just saw that too....
14:42:41  <dih> thank you Xaroth
14:42:45  <Xaroth> Rubidium: the code at least looks more accurate :P
14:42:57  <dih> aye ^^
14:43:11  <Xaroth> I'll compile and testrun it when I get back to my machine
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14:56:00  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21420 /trunk/src/network/network_admin.cpp: -Fix: admins were always given the stats of company 0
14:56:21  <peter1138> admins?
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14:57:01  <planetmaker> admin port
15:00:03  <Xaroth> <3 Rubidium
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15:01:06  <peter1138> hmm, never heard of it s:
15:03:02  <Eddi|zuHause> it's basically rcon without the need for an actual client
15:09:28  <Xaroth> with some extras
15:11:32  <peter1138> how do you use it?
15:11:41  <Xaroth>
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15:13:25  <Xaroth> both dih and myself have been working on libs for it
15:13:28  <Xaroth> one in python, other in java
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15:16:09  <dih> thank you Rubidium
15:17:18  <dih> peter1138,
15:18:08  <peter1138> well
15:18:15  <peter1138> at least you didn't go with dbus in the end, heh
15:19:04  <dih> :-P
15:19:25  <dih> nor is it a squirrel console, or squirrel interface
15:20:05  <Xaroth> and best of all
15:20:07  <Xaroth> no XML.
15:20:21  <peter1138> binary protocol though :S
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15:23:03  <Xaroth> nothing wrong with that though :)
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15:40:42  * Belugas is enjoying Chapel Rock
15:46:07  <Rubidium> Contradictio in terminis?
15:48:27  <Belugas> :)
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16:03:44  * Eddi|zuHause is going to have a concert tonight
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16:12:57  <V453000> is 2cc set 1.0.1 still available on bananas please?
16:13:37  <V453000> it seems to be
16:14:53  <Ammler> yep
16:15:06  <Ammler> no newgrfs are deleted there
16:17:37  <V453000> great :)
16:17:39  <V453000> thx
16:18:41  <planetmaker> V453000, nothing can be ever removed from bananas except by Rb himself.
16:18:55  <V453000> oh :)
16:19:00  <planetmaker> and then only by hacking the database.
16:19:07  <V453000> good :) thanks
16:19:29  <planetmaker> just download for cases where it is not required by a savegame can be disabled by authors
16:19:53  <V453000> arr
16:20:24  <planetmaker> result: you only get those which the authors want or if you absolutely need it in order to load a savegame / join a server
16:24:51  <V453000> sounds reasonable :)
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16:28:37  <Ammler> sounds unnecessary complicated, but well, we can still hope... :-)
16:29:27  <planetmaker> why do you want to download all old shit?
16:29:56  <Ammler> well, there needs to be a reson, else would wouldn't disallow it
16:30:12  <Ammler> you*
16:30:28  <planetmaker> authors of newgrfs not being keen of people using old versions for new games?
16:30:37  <planetmaker> Don't you recall all those heated resentiments?
16:30:57  <Ammler> no, I don't, the only guys mention such things are the devs here
16:31:19  <planetmaker> that was a requirement by a lot of newgrf authors.
16:31:38  <Ammler> if you can quote me one, I would be suprised
16:31:38  <planetmaker> they want to have control over which of their versions get distributed
16:32:20  <planetmaker> I can't dig up a quote without extensive search...
16:32:28  <V453000> I think this way is also very newbie friendly
16:32:36  <Ammler> you won't be able to ;-)
16:32:43  <Ammler> also if you search for hours
16:32:43  <V453000> they would get lost in the amount of versions I bet
16:32:59  * Rubidium ponders the use of having 10 OpenGFX versions in that list
16:33:18  <planetmaker> ... but you should know that the coop grfpack was only allowed to distribute stuff on the condition that we update when new versions are around
16:33:53  <planetmaker> V453000, nightlies only show you the latest version anyway ;-)
16:33:57  <Ammler> yes, our own rules :-)
16:34:04  <V453000> pm: stable doesnt? :o
16:34:09  <planetmaker> no
16:34:11  <V453000> :o
16:34:13  <Ammler> but every version is available
16:34:23  <V453000> yes, and that is imo good
16:34:25  <planetmaker> it shows you every newgrf. E.g. I have about a dozen FIRS and HEQS versions around
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16:34:58  <Rubidium> or 54 versions of NoCab, or 26 versions of ECS Chemical vector II, or 15 versions of NuTracks
16:35:29  <V453000> if a person like me has an older version, he probably knows how it works since he has it "from the times back then" ... if the wants to use it, he will, and others can join his game ... but if there was everything available for direct download, I am not wondering that authors wouldnt like it :)
16:35:35  <Ammler> hehe, that is not what we talk about, Rubidium
16:35:44  <planetmaker> not?
16:36:09  <Ammler> it's not about having all versions listed, it is about having old versions available, if needed
16:36:35  <V453000> arent they?
16:36:40  <Ammler> and it is about investing much effort to close those out
16:37:00  <Rubidium> Ammler: they are available...
16:37:06  <Ammler> yes, for you :-P
16:37:11  <Rubidium> for YOU as well
16:37:32  <Rubidium> you just need a savegame that uses the old version of the NewGRF
16:37:57  <Rubidium> then, in the load window, you'll see a warning about missing newgrfs, click on check content online and there it is... ready to be downloaded
16:38:23  <Rubidium> it *even* has a "select all" button so you don't need to individually select the NewGRFs. After all, you need all of them for your savegame
16:38:35  <Ammler> as i said, much effort for something completely unnecessary
16:38:44  <planetmaker> ... ?
16:38:56  <Rubidium> Ammler: then how would you provide old versions of NewGRF?
16:39:24  <Ammler> by not hiding them, simply :-)
16:39:25  * planetmaker guesses "provide everything"
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16:39:37  <planetmaker> Ammler, they're not hidden...
16:39:50  <Rubidium> Ammler: and thus... you get those 26 versions of ECS Chemical vectors in that list
16:39:59  <Ammler> in which list?
16:40:09  <Rubidium> the in game list of content that you can download
16:40:20  <planetmaker> Download lists? NewGRF selection lists?
16:40:24  <Ammler> why is there need to download old grfs?
16:40:24  <V453000> any list that you have them "hidden" in Ammler :p
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16:41:36  <Ammler> :-)
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16:41:42  <planetmaker> The only useful addition I see is on the bananas side for authors to allow to select additionally some old versions as available for download, too
16:42:08  <planetmaker> Like to allow 2ccTrainset 1.0 and 2ccTrainset 2.0beta
16:42:28  <Ammler> wouldn't be needed, if you don't hide it
16:42:32  <Rubidium> but still... the whole discussion started about downloading stuff from bananas, but it isn't about downloading stuff?
16:42:46  <planetmaker> But only as an option which is by default not selected when adding a new version
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16:43:15  <Rubidium> Ammler: if you don't hide the OLD versions, then you would have those 11 other versions of OpenGFX in that download list
16:43:20  <Ammler> Rubidium: you tell me, you made that so someone doesn't have 20 versions of same content listed?
16:43:22  <Rubidium> or those 25 other versions of ECS vectors
16:44:00  <V453000> that would be just a mess in the list
16:44:07  <Terkhen> in which cases would you want to download a version that is not the newest one? the only case I can think of is joining / loading a game, and that is already covered
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16:44:44  <planetmaker> Terkhen, NARS, NARS2. But, yes, very rare.
16:45:06  <Terkhen> but those specials cases are shown in bananas twice already IIRC
16:45:25  <planetmaker> But allowing authors to select single versions as permanently available would allow to have both, a development version as well as a stable version available on bananas.
16:45:28  <Rubidium> Ammler: most NewGRF developers at that time didn't want old versions of their NewGRFs being listed prominently in the list
16:45:38  <Rubidium> which is the reason why it's implemented as it is
16:46:22  <Rubidium> and technically the system is perfectly capable of showing multiple versions. It's just the "management" part that doesn't support it
16:46:29  <Ammler> Rubidium: that is and was always your thought, you can't quote someone
16:47:27  <Ammler> it is perfectly fine to "filter" old content, but it should be available on demand
16:51:55  <Ammler> Terkhen: if you simply don't like a feature a author introduced in a new release
16:53:11  <Rubidium> Ammler: "The reason I made those comments about multiplayer support was
16:53:11  <Rubidium> because - primarily for quality control reasons - I want to avoid my grfs
16:53:12  <Rubidium> appearing on sites which are nothing more than repositories of files."
16:53:28  <Rubidium> [David Dallaston, Tue, 04 Nov 2008 10:41:45 +1000
16:55:24  <Ammler> that is from "our" thread, isn't?
16:57:37  <Ammler> that is against repo in general, but not against bananas or "only newest version"
16:58:57  <Ammler> well, the code for bananas is done, so it doesn't really hurt anymore
16:59:04  <Rubidium> in any case. In my opinion it is up to the NewGRF author to determine which NewGRFs (s)he wants to be shown
16:59:21  <Rubidium> and "only newest version" is a reasonable default setting
16:59:55  <Rubidium> only problem is that the website doesn't allow the authors to configure that
17:00:50  <Rubidium> the content system itself does what it does purely based on the data in the database and the client's (newgrf exposed) version
17:01:23  <Ammler> if the website would allow it, you would need to have default setting show every version, else you don't know, if there is really an author caring about.
17:02:28  <Rubidium> I rather add an opt-out for removing the current visible NewGRFs from the list upon updates
17:02:46  <Ammler> NARS and NARS2 are 2 seperate entries, not sure, if that is the right thing to do
17:02:59  <Rubidium> as I personally think that showing only one versions is *much* better for the players than showing 25 versions
17:03:34  <Ammler> again, the meaning is not that if you allow every grf, that also every grf shold be listed
17:03:45  <Ammler> you can still filter
17:04:00  <Rubidium> you is who?
17:04:06  <Rubidium> the client?
17:04:08  <Ammler> yep
17:04:14  <Ammler> like now
17:04:17  <Rubidium> now... that is (much) extra work
17:05:13  <Rubidium> especially as it means OpenTTD needs to get an idea of the ordering of versions
17:05:18  <Ammler> yes, I know, you used the energy to hide the old grfs, nothing left for publish those anymore ;-)
17:05:21  <Rubidium> which is *far* from trivial
17:05:41  <Rubidium> Ammler: hiding old GRFs isn't hard
17:05:46  <Rubidium> it's extremely trivial
17:05:59  <Ammler> and why is filtering harder?
17:06:26  <Rubidium> Ammler: tell me, based on the grfid + md5sum + name + version string which is the newest
17:06:48  <Rubidium> compared to: upon uploading a new version say that version overrides the previous "top" version
17:07:15  <Ammler> yes, why does that need changing?
17:08:12  <Ammler> well, one thing I would change there is that the author can chose "top"
17:08:37  <Rubidium> that's missing from the management interface
17:08:53  <Ammler> but the old versions aren't even available for the author, so this is hard right now.
17:08:58  <Rubidium> still the client has no idea about ordering of versions
17:08:59  <Ammler> hmm, they are
17:12:28  <Ammler> there is "right" order needed, just order those how they are uploaded and top is marked as default or what the the save game requests
17:12:35  <Ammler> no*
17:13:04  <Rubidium> oh, it's not even "top" version. There's one (or more) versions that get their published state set. Upon uploading a new version the published state of one of the old versions is unset
17:13:45  <Rubidium> in any case, the client has no clue about the ordering of versions, or even whether they are marked as "published"
17:14:51  <Rubidium> e.g. when you set dependencies for content then all the dependencies' metadata is pulled in automatically and shown in the download list. Regardless whether they are marked as published or not
17:15:17  <Rubidium> i.e. it behaves like requesting metadata for the download list based on a list of NewGRFs you need for a savegame
17:15:37  <Rubidium> in any case... filtering on version at client side is a way bigger headache
17:15:42  <Ammler> hmm, dependencies are version based?
17:15:53  <Rubidium> yes
17:16:00  <Rubidium> AIs depend on a specific version of a library
17:16:08  <Rubidium> scenarios depend on a specific version of a NewGRF
17:16:28  <Rubidium> translation NewGRFs generally depend on a specific version of translated NewGRF
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17:17:35  <George> Let me repeat my question
17:18:08  <George> [15:01:23] <George> By default indutry tiles animation is syncronized
17:18:08  <George> [15:01:42] <George> that means the cage hapen at the same time on all the tiles
17:18:08  <George> [15:01:54] <George> That's correct behaviour by default
17:18:08  <George> [15:02:18] <George> Is it posible to make them desync without using CB27?
17:18:08  <George> [15:03:17] <George> I maen make them happen not at the same time
17:18:08  <George> [15:29:07] <George> I do not mean to have different frame
17:18:11  <George> [15:29:20] <George> I mean to change the frame in the different time
17:18:11  <George> [15:29:35] <George> Now all the tiles change the frame at the same time
17:18:13  <George> [15:30:37] <George> because prop 10 is high (07), it is easily seen
17:18:13  <George> [15:31:17] <George> I want for this particular tile to have it happen with the same delay but not at once
17:18:14  <George> [15:32:16] <George> it is possible to return random value in CB 27 and then return the same value, but CB27 eats much CPU, so I'm lookong for solution that does not use CB 27
17:18:22  <Ammler> oh sorry George, I am quiet :-P
17:19:01  <Rubidium> didn't we already give two possible solutions for that?
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17:20:02  <Rubidium> oh, #3: use the animation stage of a nearby tile and add some offset to that to delay the animation on that tile
17:22:15  <George> Rubidium: again. You are answereing wrong question
17:22:42  <George> I do not ask how to have different animation farme
17:23:20  <George> I ask how to to make the frame change happen at the different time, while the delay between the frame change is the same
17:23:43  <George> s/farme/frame
17:26:37  <Rubidium> does animation actually happen at the same time?
17:26:39  <frosch123> isn't there an asynchronous animation trigger?
17:26:46  <George> Rubidium: yes
17:26:59  <Rubidium> as animation happens at the tile loop
17:27:05  <George> frosch123: That is the thing I'm looking for
17:27:06  <Rubidium> and the tile loop happens only every N ticks
17:27:10  <George> and can't find
17:28:01  <frosch123> George: industrytile property 11 ?
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17:28:36  <frosch123> bit 1 is asynchronous, bit 2 is synchronous
17:28:56  <George> Acceptance cargo types (11)?
17:29:12  <frosch123> Triggers for callback 25 (11)
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17:29:37  <frosch123> tiles, not industries themself
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17:37:02  <George> frosch123: Sounds good but ... They still happen at the same time :(
17:37:18  <frosch123> they should not
17:37:27  <George> BTW all the tiles have the same ID
17:37:39  <frosch123> should not matter
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17:38:54  <George> frosch123: - Animal farm
17:39:10  <George> What am I doing wrong?
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17:49:36  <frosch123> which tile exactly, the animal farm (id 1f) uses tiles b0 to ba
17:50:31  <George> as you can see the same graphics is attach to tiles b2, b3, b5-ba
17:50:41  <George> and it happens at the same time
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17:50:58  <George> but I wanted them to happen separately
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17:52:14  <George> to make the animals field different during time
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17:56:47  <frosch123> hmm, do you actually use callback 25?
18:04:25  <frosch123> it looks like you use the defaultanimation, which is started on industry construction, and thus the same for all tiles
18:05:37  <frosch123> so, i guess disable animation in property 0f, and use cb 25 instead to change the frame manually when triggered
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18:19:15  <IchGuckLive> hi all from deep in snow country Germany
18:19:50  <IchGuckLive> Question does it make a difference where i put the trainstation to a large city for only passengers
18:19:54  <Markk> Guten Abend.
18:20:00  <IchGuckLive> B)
18:20:23  <Markk> IchGuckLive: Yes, a station only have a fixed spread.
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18:20:52  <IchGuckLive> i got 2 citys >2500in a distance from 40tiles
18:21:01  <Markk> But there is a way to "walk around" that.
18:21:27  <IchGuckLive> by bus
18:21:35  <Markk> Just put out a 1x1 station that is the same station but not psysically attached to that main station.
18:22:09  <Markk> (When placing a station, press and old ctrl when putting out a station)
18:22:31  <Markk> Then you'll be able to attach a station to another station.
18:22:43  <Markk> hold*
18:23:31  <IchGuckLive> so no track to the 2nd station only 1 tile around the city and track to the mains stations
18:24:01  <Markk> Mm
18:24:24  <Markk> It will be the same station even if it's not physically attached.
18:24:47  <IchGuckLive> without tracks
18:25:01  <Markk> Yes
18:25:25  <Markk> Test to place a station while pressing ctrl near another station.
18:25:32  <Markk> You'll get an little menu.
18:25:41  <George> frosch123: what should I set in 0f? If FF - no animation happens. if 0 - it happens at the same time for all of them
18:25:41  <IchGuckLive> so only the sqares that are connected to the city given me the passengers
18:26:21  <Markk> IchGuckLive: Nah, all station will give you passengers as long as there is a city within the station spread.
18:26:26  <IchGuckLive> ok i will play a scenario for that
18:26:36  <Markk> Uh, station spread is something else.
18:26:41  <Markk> BUt you get my point. :)
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18:27:29  <IchGuckLive> oh you mean if there is a city near the other then connect them together
18:27:56  <Markk> Could do, yes.
18:29:56  <SmatZ> wtf, mercury thermometers are forbidden to be sold in the EU
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18:31:09  <SmatZ> so I am offered to buy digital thermometers that are ~40 times as expensive... and according to some tests, not very exact
18:31:33  <ccfreak2k> And the EU lacks thermometers that use alcohol or wax?
18:32:33  <SmatZ> they aren't selling them here... maybe they aren't good enough for temperature range of human body?
18:33:00  <ccfreak2k> Oh, it's for that?
18:33:09  <ccfreak2k> Then yeah, no surprises on the lack of mercury thermometers.
18:33:13  <planetmaker> My parent's home probably still has in some corners some mercury bubbles ;-)
18:33:34  <planetmaker> from the last feaver thermometer which had accidentially been smashed.
18:33:58  <SmatZ> :)
18:34:43  <planetmaker> so yes, it makes some kind of sense :-) - but the units mm Hg get more and more less obvious :-(
18:35:07  <planetmaker> hm... though that's a pressure unit :-D
18:35:19  <SmatZ> hehe
18:36:04  <planetmaker> so the question is: how accurate are Hg thermometers?
18:36:09  <frosch123> SmatZ: of course mercury thermometers are forbidden. they use alcohol for decades instead
18:38:19  <frosch123> George: animation can be done in different ways. one way is to start a "classical animation" which runs indepenent of the tile processing loop, and is controlled via property 0f and 10, and callbacks 26 and 27
18:38:52  <frosch123> the other way is to do animation using the tile processing loop only. then you disable the regular animation in property 0f, and use cb 25 instead to set the next animation frame
18:41:58  <SmatZ> frosch123: interesting, I am sure we had mercury thermometers
18:42:10  <SmatZ> because it was certainly mercury what poured out when one broke :p
18:42:54  * SmatZ will ask for alcohol thermometers next time
18:43:41  <SmatZ> ok, now I look like a total fool :)
18:44:29  <Ammler> that is because you use alcohol for something else
18:44:37  <SmatZ> :P
18:44:44  <frosch123> SmatZ: if it is silver, it is mercury. if it is red or something like that, it is something else.
18:44:48  <SmatZ> why people hate me :<
18:44:53  <SmatZ> frosch123: yup, seems so :)
18:45:07  <SmatZ> I wanted to say that, but then I decided to rather shut up :)
18:45:07  <Ammler> who ?
18:45:12  <SmatZ> Ammler: nah :)
18:45:16  *** KouDy [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
18:45:22  * planetmaker likes SmatZ
18:45:28  * SmatZ hugs planetmaker
18:45:33  <IchGuckLive> is there a tutorial how to enlarge trains in the best way ?
18:45:43  <Ammler> adding trains?
18:45:47  <Ammler> wagons*
18:45:48  <frosch123> hmm, i head of thermometers specially suited for wine. are the also some for bear?
18:45:56  <SmatZ> BEAR!
18:45:59  <SmatZ> :)
18:46:00  <planetmaker> Blasebalg und viel Luft (inflate it with much air) :-P
18:46:04  <SmatZ> sorry
18:46:09  <IchGuckLive> or simply bay more wagons at the depo
18:46:13  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21421 /trunk/src/lang/ (14 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:13  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:13  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
18:46:13  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: catalan - 3 changes by arnau
18:46:13  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:14  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: dutch - 21 changes by habell
18:46:14  <CIA-10> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
18:46:16  <frosch123> hmm, beer :s
18:46:20  <planetmaker> :-D
18:46:22  * SmatZ imagines trying to measure temperature of a bear
18:46:23  <SmatZ> :)
18:46:23  <glx> frosch123: the floating ones ?
18:46:31  <Ammler> IchGuckLive: clone the train and add it at the end
18:46:32  * planetmaker would like to see frosch taking the temperature of a bear :-P
18:46:38  <SmatZ> frosch123: sure they are :) at least at breweries
18:46:45  <Ammler> IchGuckLive: and so on...
18:46:59  <IchGuckLive> Ammler: not enoph money for e new one
18:47:26  <IchGuckLive> i want to add some wagons only
18:47:38  <planetmaker> buy the wagon and drag it to the train
18:47:41  <frosch123> planetmaker: around 37°C, or 100°F when healthy
18:47:57  <planetmaker> hehe :-) frosch123 I'm not interested in the result but the procedure ;-)
18:48:05  <frosch123> (just to honour the stupidest unit ever: °F)
18:48:07  <planetmaker> full video documentary please
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18:48:08  <glx> 42°C means very big danger
18:48:10  <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: do i have to direct the train to the depo
18:48:25  <planetmaker> sure
18:48:30  <IchGuckLive> thanks
18:48:54  <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: do i loose the passenfers if i direct the train to the depoß
18:49:10  <planetmaker> not by that action alone
18:50:11  <IchGuckLive> ok i try
18:51:09  <IchGuckLive> the amount of money for a ship carianig ole around the map shoudt be more then its now REAL wold example !
18:51:59  <Lakie> I think you made a small typo in your diff, Rubidium, you have a case for 47 and then 48...
18:52:17  <IchGuckLive> by for today
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18:53:03  <Rubidium> Lakie: ah, I see
18:54:01  <Lakie> Still prefer the term variants to rotations, technically it's up to the authors what graphical differences there are.
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18:55:08  <Rubidium> Lakie: it's using "view(s)", not rotations
18:55:12  <Rubidium> and the diff's updated
18:55:20  <Lakie> Ok
18:55:51  <Lakie> Do I need to alter how var40 and most of the 60's or can I ssume the grf will handle the different views correctly?
18:57:03  <Rubidium> I'm just assuming the NewGRF handles it correctly
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18:57:22  <frosch123> SmatZ: hmm, maybe mercurial is not that unusual though, as alcohol is limited to about 70°C
18:57:26  <Rubidium> i.e. I'm not doing any rotations or similar except to the initial allocation of tiles
18:58:33  <Lakie> Ok, so only the initial size which is getting altered?
18:59:26  <Lakie> (I assume from the code, if its 1/3 it swaps the dimentions)?
18:59:33  <Rubidium> in my implementation yes
18:59:42  <Rubidium> exactly
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19:03:47  * Lakie ponders
19:03:54  <frosch123> Lakie: with "variants" you mean something like the airport layouts? (basically a third selection in addition to object class and type, which name is defined by a callback)
19:04:09  <Lakie> I mean, same object but differrent look
19:04:44  <Lakie> Though, admittedly I didn't think about objects which aren't square
19:05:05  <planetmaker> 2x1 office building :-)
19:05:24  <frosch123> non-square objects are quite troublesome :)
19:05:27  <Rubidium> frosch123: more like the depot window: choose one of 4 (or 2 or 1 depending on what the NewGRF provides)
19:05:39  <Rubidium> frosch123: read the newobjects spec thread?
19:06:18  <frosch123> i read the recent posts. maybe i also read the rest somewhen, but likely forgot at lot :)
19:06:21  <Lakie> The gui changes sound like a pain in the ass though...
19:06:45  <Rubidium> <- that's His idea
19:07:04  <Lakie> Especially if he really wants every object perfectly centred in each preview for any object...
19:07:37  <Rubidium> Lakie: luckily perfect is never going to work :)
19:08:13  <Rubidium> and I'd be lazy and just keep it as is, i.e. aligned to the bottom
19:08:34  <frosch123> oh, damn... i read "non-square" as "non-rectangular" ...
19:09:07  <planetmaker> I wonder how that idea works when there are 30 variations
19:09:22  <planetmaker> So probably something like the proposed stationGUI method would be nice(r)
19:09:33  <planetmaker> as it allows scrolling
19:09:56  <frosch123> how about a variable number of layouts, which are displayed in a scrollable list. and some action 0 flag to choose between 1 and 2 columns
19:10:11  <Rubidium> planetmaker: only 1, 2 or 4 variations are allowed :)
19:10:26  <frosch123> that way a grf can provide different looks like for airports, or different orientations in groups of 2
19:10:37  <planetmaker> nah... better make it in a way that you can treat both things with basically the same GUI code
19:10:55  <planetmaker> hm... airports
19:11:05  <Rubidium> planetmaker: ever noticed that stations have 2 variations?
19:11:17  <planetmaker> \ and / ?
19:11:21  <Rubidium> yes
19:11:21  <planetmaker> I guess I did :-)
19:11:27  <frosch123> i.e. either n variants with the same size, or 2xn variants with swapped dimensions for every second variant
19:11:54  <Rubidium> so in what way is adding those variations different from the station GUI?
19:12:18  <frosch123> stations have exaclty 2 variants
19:12:34  <frosch123> a object could have 2xn with (n > 2)
19:12:46  <Rubidium> then it's rather 4xn
19:12:55  <Rubidium> as there are 4 rotations (see depots)
19:13:22  <frosch123> why 4? what is the difference between 4 and 2 x 2 ?
19:13:40  <frosch123> ottd only has to care about the dimension
19:13:44  <Rubidium> true
19:14:00  <frosch123> if there are multiple variants varying in look, it does not matter whether some of them are addional rotations
19:14:27  <Rubidium> I'd just limit it to max 4
19:14:31  <Lakie> Indeed, as stated the graphics point ovf view is the authors decisions...
19:14:41  <Lakie> Well, I think 4 is enough...
19:14:46  <Rubidium> after that it's (IMO) something else
19:14:56  <Lakie> Most objects will likely be rotatins and thus only need 4.
19:15:15  <Lakie> Also, how to show the options past 4 becomes less friendly
19:15:17  <frosch123> no livery variants? or similiar stuff?
19:15:33  <Rubidium> frosch123: please not :)
19:15:37  <Lakie> If the author wants to use their variants like that...
19:15:47  <Lakie> Still counts against their 4...
19:15:50  * Lakie flee
19:15:58  <frosch123> well ok, but then please make the specs entensible :)
19:16:10  <frosch123> do not force 1, 2, or 4 :)
19:16:32  <Rubidium> but they are essentially rotations of the same thing
19:16:35  <Lakie> Hmm... but if we allow unlimited (likely 255), we run into problems with the selection interfaces
19:16:53  <Rubidium> if you want variants, then it's a different object
19:17:15  <Rubidium> and the variants of differents takes on objects of a single class
19:18:11  <frosch123> well, e.g. bus/truck stops have 6 variants
19:18:30  <Rubidium> i.e. we want to provide a "depot choose style" "chose the rotation", not a proposed station GUI "variants" choice
19:18:58  <Rubidium> frosch123: or... 4 rotations of the terminus and 2 rotations of the drive through
19:19:11  <Lakie> Heh
19:19:13  <Rubidium> i.e. conceptually completely different things
19:19:30  <Rubidium> after all, the drive through is accessed from two sides
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19:21:37  <frosch123> well, i see property 17 is a byte, so it is extensible, so it should be fine :)
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19:28:15  <Lakie> Unsure about the interface though, getting it to work like the proposal seems like it could be somewhat messy
19:29:04  <Rubidium> I'm just waiting for our GUI guru for ideas/suggestions :)
19:29:33  <Lakie> Heh
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19:46:32  <andythenorth> evening
19:54:27  <SmatZ> hello andythenorth
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20:17:53  <andythenorth> ship smoke is no longer necessary:
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20:25:40  <George> frosch123:  animation can be done in different ways.  -> then is there some tile counter like AA for industries, but for tiles?
20:26:33  <George> I need the tile is processed in the periodic processing loop to happen less often than every 256 ticks
20:28:49  <George> checking industry var AA is not the right solution, because tiles would change graphics on one cycle (within 256 ticks) and stay unchanged on other cycles
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20:43:05  <frosch123> George: then make multiple frames look the same
20:43:37  <George> how would it help?
20:43:58  <frosch123> every tile has 8 bits for the animation frame, so you can have 256 animation stages
20:44:24  <frosch123> if you want a certain spritelayout to stay for like 10 tileloops, then show it for frames 0 to 9
20:44:25  <George> and how would it help?
20:44:36  <George> prop 10 is not taken into account
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20:44:38  <frosch123> the next layout for frames 10 to say 15
20:44:47  <frosch123> and the nextone for 16 to 35 or whatever
20:45:15  <frosch123> tileloop is always 256 ticks, independent of any property
20:45:25  <George> And that is the problem
20:45:46  <frosch123> only if you want to make faster animation
20:49:56  <frosch123> anyway, alternative you can also do the animation for one tile how you are doing now, and make the other tiles copy the animation frame from that tile during the tile processing
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20:50:29  <frosch123> so you have one master tile doing whatever frames, and the other tiles copying it asynchronously
20:50:40  <frosch123> that should work as long as the frames are not shorter than 256 ticks
20:51:49  <frosch123> though all tiles will then change within the same 256 ticks, and then stay until the mastertile advances
20:55:55  <George> frosch123: same 256 ticks, and then stay until the mastertile advances <- this what I try to avoid :(
20:56:11  <frosch123> well, what is exactly the timing of your tiles?
20:56:41  <frosch123> can the frame durations all become multiple of 256 ticks?
20:57:10  <George> nothing exact, but I want it to be something big - over a game month
20:57:56  <George> currently I can have 2048 tics
20:58:02  <frosch123> he, then use the date
20:58:24  <George> How would it help?
20:58:44  <George> Al the tiles have the same ID and would do the same date check
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20:59:22  <George> 2048 ticks is 20 game days, right?
20:59:42  <frosch123> use something like "(date + random bits) and 0xF" for a frame between 0 and 0xF
20:59:58  <frosch123> @calc 2048/74
20:59:58  <DorpsGek> frosch123: 27.6756756757
21:01:30  <frosch123> oh, better than date is actualy var 0x0a
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21:02:33  <frosch123> so something like "((var 0x0a + random bits) >> speed) and framemask"
21:02:53  <ccfreak2k> &
21:03:40  <frosch123> c operators are untrve
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21:25:04  <frosch123> night
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21:31:43  <LordAro> evenin'
21:31:45  * Belugas is hungry
21:31:53  <Belugas> hey LordAro
21:32:05  <LordAro> hey Belugas :)
21:34:27  * ABCRic throws a couple tons o' fish at Belugas
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21:37:16  <Belugas> thanks for all the fish
21:37:30  <SystemParadox> can anyone direct me to rules for submitting patches? I'm particularly thinking about requirements for settings/strings
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21:37:48  <Belugas> flyspay would be one spot
21:38:09  <Belugas> oh.. silly me... a clickable url..
21:38:10  <Belugas>
21:38:45  <LordAro> i suspect this might help...
21:41:21  <SystemParadox> I'm there already, but I've seen mention of "OpenTTD quality requirements" which I can't find
21:41:39  <Belugas> check for coding style :)
21:41:57  <SystemParadox> coding style only has coding style
21:42:02  <SystemParadox> (if that makes sense)
21:43:21  <ABCRic> Requirements: good wording and spelling?
21:43:33  <SystemParadox> seems to cover it
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22:01:11  <SystemParadox> um. Having attached a patch to a bug report, how do I get my patch applied? There is no status for "waiting for devs to apply patch"
22:01:42  <LordAro> you wait ;)
22:01:43  <__ln__> SystemParadox: prepare to wait for approximately 6 to 18 months.
22:01:51  <SystemParadox> what?!
22:02:14  <SystemParadox> it's a 2 line patch!
22:02:22  <__ln__> still.
22:02:27  <LordAro> which bug report?
22:02:34  <SystemParadox>
22:04:46  <LordAro> 2 line patch? no it isn't. its 17 lines, with 6 changes and 4 extra lines :p
22:05:07  <Belugas> why not make it simper?
22:05:09  <Belugas> simpler?
22:05:10  <Belugas> _cursor.fix_at = !(_settings_client.gui.reverse_scroll);
22:05:17  <Belugas> looks more like a decent code to me
22:05:41  <Rubidium> even without the parentheses
22:05:47  <Belugas> true that
22:05:54  <Belugas> i'm hungry and i am tired
22:06:07  <Belugas> and i'm going in away
22:06:11  <Belugas> BYE BYE
22:06:21  <Rubidium> have a good evening :)
22:06:55  <Belugas> thanks :) you too sir
22:06:58  * Belugas is gone
22:07:05  <SystemParadox> lol
22:07:24  <LordAro> what a guy :)
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22:09:26  <LordAro> quick question: running regression(ai) results in the ai dying "unexpectantly", is this correct?
22:09:54  <SystemParadox> why won't flyspray let me delete/overwrite the old version?
22:10:22  <Rubidium> LordAro: yes, it dies unexpectedly because the script runs out. Which is incidentally the clue that it had enough time to run
22:11:07  <SmatZ> "make regression" works as expected for me
22:12:20  <LordAro> i meant running: bin/ai/regression/
22:12:36  <LordAro> as it says to do here:
22:12:47  <planetmaker> SystemParadox: it's a bug tracker... and not a patch archive
22:12:57  <planetmaker> old versions are part of discussions
22:13:12  <SystemParadox> I guess
22:14:39  * LordAro would like an answer quickly, as his mum is telling me to go to bed! :D
22:14:48  <LordAro> i'm too impatient, i know :)
22:15:36  <planetmaker> SystemParadox: for that reason a version within the filename is helpful :-P
22:20:35  <LordAro> never mind, but i'll be checking the logs in the morning ;)
22:20:44  <LordAro> night people
22:22:19  * LordAro says bye bye
22:22:32  <planetmaker> bye
22:22:52  *** LordAro [] has quit [Quit: ajax IRC Client]
22:23:21  <SystemParadox> planetmaker, yeah had I known I would have done that. I was thinking it would overwrite it. Oh well
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22:23:37  <planetmaker> :-) shit happens
22:23:53  <Ammler> isn't there a date with the file?
22:25:08  <Ammler> oh, not on FS
22:25:22  <planetmaker> not there
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22:47:59  <V453000> lol wtf bbq I just loaded an old savegame and ICE3 from DB set are making steam :D
22:50:56  <V453000> oh holy crap :D it happens also normally
22:51:12  <Ammler> normally?
22:53:36  <V453000> I just generated a new game with DBset only
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22:53:42  <V453000> and ICE 3 are making steam :D
22:54:07  <Ammler> I guess, it is introduced with the Hirundo patch
22:54:42  <V453000> ?? :o
22:55:00  <V453000> the none/original/realistic smoke amount?
22:55:22  <V453000> that would be great, but what is steam doing on ICE3 :D
22:56:09  <Rubidium> it's a spec disagreement
22:56:46  <Rubidium> OpenTTD implemented the specs, but apparantly the specs aren't how it's implemented in TTDPatch and thus the specs are wrong, blah blah blah
22:57:08  <Ammler> i guess, there is a thread about...
22:58:28  <V453000> right, so the issue I am talking about is known (?) :)
22:59:21  <Rubidium> yes
22:59:41  <V453000> ok :D
22:59:42  <Ammler> eihter ask devs to make a quirk mode or mb for christmas dbset release :-)
23:00:16  <V453000> I will just disable steam
23:00:29  <V453000> (not like I am going to use ICE3 anyway)
23:00:33  <Ammler> that is possible?
23:00:40  <Rubidium> well... frosch is going to look at the ttdpatch and openttd 1.0.x implementation and see if they match. If so, the specs get updated and part of Hirundo's match the specs stuff gets reverted
23:01:35  <V453000> Ammler: yes, in vehicles options
23:01:55  <V453000> (talking about nightly all the time, I guess you noticed) :)
23:02:10  <Ammler> only thing we care ;-)
23:02:18  <V453000> :)))
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