Log for #openttd on 28th May 2011:
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00:21:34  <Cyberdot> 'night
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02:21:54  <HackaLittleBit> hello.
02:25:06  <HackaLittleBit> compile problem with fileio.cpp on win box
02:25:08  <HackaLittleBit> add please following line
02:25:10  <HackaLittleBit> # define access _taccess
02:25:12  <HackaLittleBit> after line 19 #include <windows.h>
02:25:13  <HackaLittleBit> will fix it :)
02:25:15  <HackaLittleBit> regards
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02:27:27  <HackaLittleBit> bug was introduced in r22501
02:29:50  <HackaLittleBit> maybe line 23 in  fios.cpp needs some cleaning.
02:30:03  <HackaLittleBit> bye bye
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03:23:41  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r22502 /trunk/src/ (fileio.cpp fios.cpp): -Fix (r22501): WIN32 compilation
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07:04:00  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: if it still matters: <-- and the parameters are all named ;-) And there's a separate 'build canal' base cost
07:04:04  <planetmaker> moin
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07:12:09  <andythenorth> morning
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08:03:48  <Terkhen> good morning
08:03:58  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
08:04:00  <TWerkhoven> mornin
08:06:24  <frosch123> andythenorth: to answer your question from yesterday, both autorenew and autoreplace try to preserve the subcargo. but the grfs needs to use the same textid for them
08:06:56  <frosch123> so it wont work if one vehicle says "40t in 4 wagons" and the other says "80t in 4 sagons"
08:07:13  <andythenorth> ok
08:07:16  <frosch123> it would work if they used the same texts, like "short" or "long" (suggested names by eddi)
08:07:26  <andythenorth> I don't think it's working for auto-replace
08:07:34  <andythenorth> although I'd have to test to prove that
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08:50:57  <Wolf01> hello
08:55:28  <Alberth> moin
09:05:45  <ChoHag> Conditional orders are seriously confusing yacd routes.
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09:27:28  <peter1138> openttdcoop yacd game is pretty ruined
09:34:10  <andythenorth> which server is it on?
09:35:56  <planetmaker>
09:36:02  <planetmaker> peter1138: you want a new one?
09:37:54  <Terkhen> heh, someone had fun blowing everything up
09:38:36  <andythenorth> since when could I paste into a text box in openttd?
09:38:59  <planetmaker> andythenorth: for long ;-)
09:39:14  <andythenorth> but not copy?
09:40:06  <planetmaker>  !rcon restart was my friend on the yacd server ;-)
09:40:09  <planetmaker> andythenorth: not copy
09:40:22  <peter1138> paste has been there aeons... on windows
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09:41:58  <peter1138> planetmaker, btw, it says "house rules at"
09:42:07  <peter1138> but there are no rules on that page, nor a link to any
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09:42:57  <planetmaker> yeI suppose you have a point there
09:43:29  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22503 /trunk/src/ (effectvehicle.cpp effectvehicle_func.h): -Doc: EffectVehicleType.
09:43:55  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22504 /trunk/src/ (effectvehicle.cpp effectvehicle_func.h): -Codechange: Add EV_END and use it to check the lengths of _effect_init_procs and _effect_tick_procs.
09:45:13  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22505 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Add: Separate EffectVehicleTypes for broken aircraft and smoke at copper ore mine, to make them distinguishable from each other and from smoke due to disasters. (only affects newly spawned effects)
09:46:39  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22506 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Feature [FS#4625]: Make the transparency options for industries also affect the effect vehicles created by industries.
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09:56:16  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22507 /trunk/src/openttd.h: -Doc: Document SwitchMode.
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10:10:35  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: out of interest: did you loose connection to the server or did you quit?
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10:16:00  <andythenorth_> seems my ISP lost dns, so I switched connection
10:31:09  <Ammler> there is a irc channel for the server: , then you can follow also if not connected, recommend if connection is bad :-)
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10:32:20  <Ammler> andythenorth_: ^
10:39:45  <ChoHag> I wouldn't have thought openttdcoop worked well with yacd.
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10:40:17  <ChoHag> The coop MO seems to be all about linking to central points.
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10:41:45  <Ammler> there are different types, openttdcoop is just a group building together, how is not defined
10:42:07  <Eddi|zuHause> why should it not work, as long as they connect all industries?
10:42:27  <Eddi|zuHause> things like "autobalancing S-Bahn" won't work, though ;)
10:43:26  <ChoHag> Well I only looked into it a couple of times. Never really like it.
10:43:31  <Ammler> but indeed, yacdist might be more useable
10:46:04  <Ammler> also isn't for #openttdcoop, it is from #openttdcoop ;-)
10:46:25  <Ammler> like .stable
10:46:50  <Ammler> so you might also join and play you invidiual game there
10:47:35  <Ammler> [11:41] <peter1138> planetmaker, btw, it says "house rules at" <-- that is template url, there aren't any rules for it afaik
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10:49:50  <ChoHag> I'd rather fix the three (and a half) glaring bugs I've found in YACD.
10:49:56  <ChoHag> But I don't know where to begin.
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10:51:00  <ChoHag> Doesn't help that SVN and git don't always get along very well.
10:51:22  <Ammler> you don't need svn anymore
10:51:52  <ChoHag> The git interfaces to svn are not great.
10:52:34  <Ammler> michi_cc: provides git mirror of the svn repo
10:52:50  <ChoHag> I noticed this a while ago at work on a project which used svn on the back-end. The conversion locally from svn to git doesn't deal with branches properly.
10:52:55  <ChoHag> Because SVN sucks at branches.
10:53:24  <ChoHag> Yes. I have that. It's a lot cleaner than the mess I had to work with before.
10:53:52  <ChoHag> So I can get there. It just takes a while longer than if it was gits all the way down.
10:53:57  <Ammler> then rahter your svn repo made branches wrong
10:54:38  <Ammler> svn doesn't have "real" support for branches or tags, you need to "simulate" it :-)
10:54:53  <ChoHag> Indeed.
10:55:28  <Ammler> so if your svn repo doesn't let you make a nice convert to git or hg, blame the repo maintainer
10:55:37  <ChoHag> Oh I did.
10:55:46  <ChoHag> Daily.
10:56:45  <Ammler> e.g. is convertable without big issues
10:59:29  <Alberth> do you know there is a Git mirror?  (I just added the Git link)
11:00:09  <Ammler> Alberth: it's not which bothered him
11:00:29  <ChoHag> It's not any particular archive which bothers me.
11:00:36  <Alberth> Git:   <--  ?
11:00:47  <ChoHag> svn -> git is just never completely clean, afaict.
11:01:09  <ChoHag> Makes going through the history a tad more difficult is all.
11:01:10  <Alberth> yeah, git is broken imho
11:01:35  <Ammler> Alberth: try the git mirror from michi_cc
11:01:56  <Alberth> Ammler: it is not the repo, it is the program that is broken :)
11:02:10  <ChoHag> Of course it's broken. It's software.
11:02:14  <Ammler> ah, true that is :-)
11:02:49  <Alberth> I play the yacd patch by mirroring trunk at the right revision, then apply the .patch file
11:03:04  <Alberth> s/play/played/
11:03:28  <Ammler> I setup yacd on .dev with git
11:03:40  <Ammler> without any git knowledge :-P
11:05:18  <Ammler> does git also have a kind of patch queue manager or how is that done there?
11:05:19  <ChoHag> I love the way CPP puts code in header files. In much the same way that I love sliding forks into my eyes.
11:05:34  <ChoHag> s/CPP/C++/
11:06:25  <Alberth> Ammler: it does, I don't know how though, hg works good enough for me :)
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11:07:42  <Alberth> ChoHag: oh, you are going to enjoy the OpenTTD source code then, filled with old C code and global variables :D
11:08:09  <frosch123> it's not thaat bad anymore, is it?
11:08:53  <Alberth> looked at fios files lately? :p
11:08:55  <frosch123> hmm, though true, we can only load one game at a time
11:09:26  <frosch123> we should be able to load multiple games and newgrf configs independently :)
11:12:23  <Alberth> good for playing what-if games :)
11:13:57  <peter1138> i had a pa...
11:15:18  <Alberth> :D
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11:24:53  <peter1138> # only ginger can call another ginger ginger
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13:53:34  <Rubidium> frosch123: I agree, running multiple OpenTTD games within a single OpenTTD binary seems to be *the* perfect way to make OpenTTD make use of the other cores as well
13:53:59  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22508 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Codechange: Lift default screenshot filename out of MakeScreenshotName.
13:54:19  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22509 /trunk/src/ (screenshot.cpp screenshot.h): -Add: Save heightmap.
13:54:54  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22510 /trunk/src/fios.cpp: -Codechange: Extract filepath creation to its own function.
13:55:07  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22511 /trunk/src/ (fios.cpp fios.h screenshot.cpp screenshot.h): -Add: Function to make heightmap file paths.
13:55:35  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22512 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Add: Save heightmap.
13:55:59  <frosch123> not quite what i had in mind :)
13:56:00  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22513 /trunk/src/ (fios.h fios_gui.cpp lang/english.txt): -Add: Allow for saving a heightmap from the file dialogue window.
13:56:37  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: alberth * r22514 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt toolbar_gui.cpp): -Feature: Save heightmap in scenario editor.
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13:57:32  <frosch123> usually people want to run ottd on a cluster :p
13:58:40  <Rubidium> frosch123: yeah, and then they modify OpenTTD so the clients can run AIs and the server always runs in fast forward. After that, they complain to me that the AIs are kicked from the server so extraordinarily often
14:02:02  <Eddi|zuHause> did that really happen?
14:02:18  <Rubidium> yes
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14:03:53  <Eddi|zuHause> clearly the only thing this needs is a feedback mechanism to stop the server if the client is slow :p
14:05:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not the worst idea to give each AI its own core
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14:08:31  <Rubidium> true, but it's somewhat tricky w.r.t. command execution
14:10:19  <Rubidium> and possibly other things like runtime-ish inclusion of other files (seem to remember there's a statement that allows you to include something mid-execution)
14:11:08  <Eddi|zuHause> hence the workaround to give each ai a full client?
14:11:51  <Ammler> you don't need ais on a server, doesn't make sense anyway
14:12:16  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'm fairly sure that wasn't the point anyway ;)
14:14:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: someone who hacks the game to always run FF doesn't want to play himself
14:14:03  <Ammler> well, it would make sense, if they could overtake abandoned companies
14:14:41  <Eddi|zuHause> but rather watch some kind of AI battle
14:15:36  <Rubidium> more "wants to see how the amount of network traffic scales when the amount of active players increases"
14:16:17  <Eddi|zuHause> that vaguely falls into that category ;)
14:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> "#define MAKELINE(a, b, c) { a, b, c }," <-- what sense has this? it's not like {} is several magnitudes more difficult to type than ()?
14:21:46  <Eddi|zuHause> (that's in src/table/road_land.h)
14:21:58  <Ammler> couldn't the code be changed so drivers and passengers don't die on accidents, just injured?
14:22:10  <Rubidium> it makes it easier to add fields to the structs
14:22:12  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: there's a patch for that
14:22:24  <Ammler> seriously? :-)
14:22:27  <Rubidium> Ammler: s/code/translation/, then yes!
14:23:14  <Ammler> Rubidium: I thought, english.txt is code, not translation
14:23:54  <Rubidium> but really, why make that bit more complex?
14:24:08  <Ammler> how is that more complex?
14:24:13  <Ammler> that is just another word
14:24:17  <Rubidium> as it is definitely wrong to make it injured
14:24:48  <Ammler> oh, you mean unrealistic?
14:24:51  <Rubidium> as a plane crashing mid-air and tumbling burning into the ocean doesn't injure people, it pretty much roasts and kills them
14:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> this file is full of magic hex numbers :(
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14:27:07  <Eddi|zuHause> @base 10 16 1313
14:27:07  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 521
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14:28:54  <Eddi|zuHause> @base 16 10 1212
14:28:54  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 4626
14:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause> @base 10 16 1332
14:29:28  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 534
14:29:34  <Eddi|zuHause> @base 10 16 1352
14:29:34  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 548
14:29:46  <Rubidium> sprite numbers?
14:30:22  <Eddi|zuHause> looks like it
14:35:19  <Eddi|zuHause> drawing is difficult, and from the looks, the old patch does it The Wrong Way (tm)
14:36:48  <Eddi|zuHause> so i'm currently trying to rewrite it, instead of update it
14:41:41  <Terkhen> andythenorth_: can you set % of cities to zero? they grow fast enough already :P
14:43:26  <planetmaker> hm, nice, Alberth :-)
14:43:44  <planetmaker> Terkhen: what % of cities?
14:44:27  <Terkhen> planetmaker: "Proportion of towns that will become cities:"
14:45:20  <planetmaker> ah
14:45:26  <planetmaker> yes
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14:53:00  <andythenorth> hmm
14:53:11  <andythenorth> leaving an MP game blitzed my web connection
14:53:13  <supermop> hi andy
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14:53:17  <andythenorth> or it was a coincidence
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16:00:08  <Eddi|zuHause> "DNF to be released 10th june"
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16:02:13  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably as close to "end of the world" as you can get :p
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16:09:03  <ChoHag> Is math.h included already by some header in openttd?
16:09:15  <__ln__> I hope not.
16:09:22  <peter1138> we don't use any math.h function, iirc
16:09:24  <ChoHag> Or some alternative.
16:09:49  <ChoHag> Something which can do square roots.
16:11:18  <peter1138> what for?
16:11:33  <ChoHag> To calculate a curve.
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16:14:02  <Alberth> there is no floating point math in openttd
16:14:12  <ChoHag> Boring.
16:14:42  <Alberth> no, it is compatible with many processors
16:16:08  <ChoHag> Meh.
16:17:25  <Terkhen> what are you trying to calculate?
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16:18:45  <ChoHag> sqrt(1-x^2)
16:19:04  <ChoHag> A non-linear function to multiply apparent speed.
16:20:13  <ChoHag> For now, sqrt will do. If I like the result I'll probably put in pre-calculated values.
16:20:19  <ChoHag> It only needs 255.
16:20:21  <Eddi|zuHause> use an approximation that works with integers
16:20:22  <ChoHag> 256.
16:21:09  <Eddi|zuHause> and sqrt(1-x^2) sounds awfully relativistic...
16:21:31  <ChoHag> It's a circle.
16:21:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i know
16:21:57  <ChoHag> Well, from 0 to 1 it's Πof a circle.
16:22:29  <Eddi|zuHause> but that term appears in pretty much any formula for special relativity theory
16:22:57  <ChoHag> I want to plug it in and see if it stops the effect of having ships accelerate amusingly fast.
16:23:56  <Eddi|zuHause> make ships use the realistic acceleration code and set max_te really low?
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16:42:14  <peter1138> they'll still stop instantly
16:42:22  <ChoHag> Yes I've noticed that.
16:43:44  <ChoHag> I need to pick my battles though.
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17:02:09  <peter1138> solving instant stopping is a harder problem
17:02:23  <peter1138> as you'd need to determine where to start stopping well in advance
17:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> while you're at it, solve it for trains as well :p
17:09:26  <peter1138> quite so
17:09:31  <peter1138> and rvs :D
17:09:41  <peter1138> and without causing performance issues...
17:11:48  <ChoHag> Trains is easy. Start stopping at the previous signal if the next one is red.
17:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, please :p
17:12:43  <peter1138> uh
17:12:45  <peter1138> no
17:13:10  <peter1138> you forget that there are people who place signals every other tile, and such monstrosities
17:13:17  <ChoHag> They should be shot.
17:13:59  <Alberth> trains should slow down such that they can stop :)
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17:14:15  <Alberth> ie with 1 tile blocks, they never reach top speed
17:14:20  <peter1138> good idea :D
17:15:23  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: then update and improve and then pick up the open issues, like train priorities and stuff ;)
17:16:20  <Terkhen> what's the problem with placing signals every two tiles?
17:16:34  <ChoHag> Well it's ugly for one.
17:16:48  <Ammler> and for two?
17:16:56  <Terkhen> and? :P
17:17:22  <ChoHag> Need there be another?
17:17:45  <Ammler> ChoHag: the question is rather, why is that a issue for your patch
17:17:56  <ChoHag> Wait, what?
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17:18:30  <Terkhen> so... since it is ugly you don't feel that it should be supported?
17:18:49  <ChoHag> Yes.
17:18:55  <ChoHag> OpenTTD should be a pretty game.
17:19:13  <Ammler> openttd should be a game for every taste
17:19:15  <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: doesn't mean there can't be a setting, though
17:19:25  <ChoHag> Ugliness is a lack of taste.
17:19:38  <Ammler> it is ugly just for you
17:20:07  <Terkhen> I don't mind the signals, also I prefer usefulness over eyecandy... there are a lot of ways to play the game ;)
17:20:14  <Ammler> IMO, it is uglier to have 10 lines parallel just to have less signals
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17:20:37  <ChoHag> There were 8 lines going past the back of my old house.
17:21:12  <Ammler> hmm, maybe you confuse it with realistic
17:21:27  <ChoHag> You mean trains *don't* instantly turn 45 degrees at a time?
17:21:28  <Ammler> that is often (mis)used in openttd
17:22:04  <Ammler> or abused
17:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: by all means, introduce 15° curves :p
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17:24:20  <ChoHag> Only if you introduce two parallel lines per tile.
17:25:00  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but how to convert savegames with only one line?
17:25:18  <ChoHag> They wouldn't need any converting.
17:25:54  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the map array is a tad too small for offsetting one line to the middle, right or left, and additional combinations
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17:33:44  <Alberth> ChoHag: simple, just build diagonal tracks only
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17:45:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22515 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:45:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
17:45:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 2 changes by jpx_
17:45:26  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 9 changes by kristoffer_hh
17:45:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 2 changes by Lone_Wolf
17:45:28  <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 1 changes by ntadej
17:45:53  <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: lack of diagonal stations and bridges :p
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17:48:11  <Alberth> with stations you want more room around your train so it can be (un)loaded from both sides, and you only need bridges to cross other diagonal tracks :p
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18:26:30  <fjb> With diagonal tracks there are two parallel lines only on every second tile.
18:33:41  <Wolf01> I'll be happy with just diagonal tracks going uphill, so you can climb all the sides of an octagon shaped hill
18:35:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd not say "happy" but that would be nice as well
18:36:27  <Eddi|zuHause> "traffic objects" with a state machine defining possible movement paths would be nice for that
18:37:57  <Eddi|zuHause> (the lock is an example of such an object)
18:43:30  * Alberth ponders 15 degrees corners with such a state machine
18:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> the interesting part about this is that you can span multiple tile, so smooth road curves etc. become possible
18:44:32  <Alberth> yeah :D
18:44:36  <Eddi|zuHause> or tram embedded in the middle of a 4 lane road
18:44:47  <Eddi|zuHause> (2 tiles wide)
18:45:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be like SC4 puzzle pieces
18:46:06  <Alberth> we'll get a RCT interface :)
18:46:32  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought about a station-like layout picker would suffice :p
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18:51:42  <Alberth>   <-- example in this pcx file :)
18:53:32  * Alberth wanders into the new intro gui thread, and wonders about its state.
18:54:13  <Eddi|zuHause> nah, that's a silly thing...
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18:54:20  *** TomyLobo2 is now known as TomyLobo
18:55:23  <supermop> i hated laying track that way
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19:05:15  <Alberth> in RCT1 it made sense to me
19:05:20  <ChoHag> RCT/Locomotion's method of laying track would be excellent, _iff_ used to supplement ttd's old fashioned method.
19:05:35  <ChoHag> ie. for building more interesting bridges etc.
19:06:41  <planetmaker> man, yacd and FIRS makes for really tedious "connect all industries which accept XXX or your ratings will be below anything"
19:07:05  <andythenorth> planetmaker: FIRS needs rebalancing for yacd ;)
19:07:19  <ChoHag> andythenorth: And some yacd bugs need fixing.
19:07:20  <andythenorth> but also the rating algorithm really does suck
19:07:59  <ChoHag> Station ratings?
19:08:01  *** pugi [] has joined #openttd
19:08:09  <ChoHag> Indeed.
19:09:12  <andythenorth> planetmaker: there are too many lime kilns in that game by far
19:09:28  <andythenorth> but adjusting probabilities is nearly-pointless
19:09:29  <Zuu> Hmm, hoping that updating lenny => squeeze would magically fix all problems does not seem to be happen. Instead I get various interesting new problems. :-)
19:09:44  <ChoHag> How much of en effect does distance have on yacd destination industries?
19:10:46  <Zuu> Quite a bit I think
19:11:00  <Zuu> It uses different distance categories.
19:11:31  <Zuu> So X % of the destinations has to come from destinations nearby, Y % from mid-distance and Z % from far destinations.
19:15:49  <fjb> Quite realistic. Don't buy everything in Japan or your production will be doomed when the next earthquake happens.
19:16:40  <andythenorth> same could be said for california :P
19:18:06  *** Kurimus [] has quit []
19:19:18  <fjb> Nuclear power plants on tectonically unstable ground, quite true...
19:19:41  <fjb> Buy everything in China. :)
19:20:26  <Alberth> fyi, the non-nuclear infra structure is wiped out too
19:20:41  <ChoHag> The anti-nuclear attention paid to Japan is disgusting.
19:20:47  <Alberth> except we don't hear about it
19:20:57  <ChoHag> Thousands have died and their property ruined.
19:21:18  <ChoHag> The nuclear power plants did really bloody well considering they were hit with much more than they were designed to withstand.
19:21:56  <ChoHag> Not even half a dozen people have died at the plant, and none from any radiological exposure.
19:22:08  <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> man, yacd and FIRS makes for really tedious "connect all industries which accept XXX or your ratings will be below anything" <-- imho yacd rating should only be counted for actually connected destinations
19:22:12  <fjb> I can't really say they did well. Many nuclear power plants are still shut down. And energy is needed to rebuild everything.
19:23:11  <Alberth> fjb "..they were hit with much more than they were designed to withstand" <-- so yeah, they should have been engineered to withstand a bigger splash of water
19:23:54  <ChoHag> The plant a few miles down the road shut down without issue.
19:24:39  <Alberth> not sure how useful a power plant would be there, given that everything has been flattened, ie no infra structure to plug into, or perhaps transport the electricity
19:25:21  <fjb> There will always be an even bigger earthquake than expected. And the power plants at Fukushima got unstable from the earthquake. The following tsunami did not help, but did not cause the catastroph eiter.
19:25:47  <ChoHag> There was no nuclear catastrophe.
19:25:49  <Alberth> oh it did, it knocked out the cooling system
19:26:09  <ChoHag> It certainly didn't do well, but it was hardly catastrophic.
19:26:23  <fjb> Drawing new power lines is not that hard, but a lot of the nuclear power plants are still shut down and can not be replaced in a few weeks.
19:26:28  <Alberth> ChoHag: well, there was, nuclear water running into the ocean is not supposed to happen :)
19:26:47  <ChoHag> Yeah but that's certainly not catastrophic.
19:27:14  <fjb> ChoHag: The containments of at least tree reactors are broken. That is hardly noncatastrophic.
19:27:50  <andythenorth> there are possibly more people killed by crossing collisions with US coal trains per year than have died from nuclear energy
19:27:52  <andythenorth> maybe
19:28:01  <Alberth> definitely
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19:28:55  <Alberth> death rate by nuclear problems is almost 0
19:29:04  <ChoHag> Even chernobyl is nearly death-free.
19:29:26  <Alberth> except they didn't know that back then :)
19:29:27  <ChoHag> And what deaths there were were caused by Russian ineptitude.
19:30:20  <fjb> People are killed in the accident. Make it more secure next time. The accident will go into the next book about history, if it was big enough. But a nuclear catastrophe causes deaths over a long time after the accident.
19:30:38  <ChoHag> No it doesn't.
19:30:48  <ChoHag> No, sorry, that's not true.
19:31:06  <ChoHag> A nuclear catastrophe could cause long-term deaths, so it's a good thing there wasn't a catastrophe.
19:31:10  <fjb> Death from radiation is very true.
19:31:29  <ChoHag> Yes, but hasn't happened after any nuclear power accidents.
19:31:54  <Eddi|zuHause> in what world?
19:32:25  <ChoHag> Chernobyl had almost no radiological deaths, Three-mile-island had none and Fukushima had ... none.
19:32:37  <fjb> ChoHag: Tell that the people who worked at Tshernobyl and who cleaned up after the power plant blew up.
19:32:38  <andythenorth> I thought this was a balanced article on it:
19:32:54  <ChoHag> fjb: Hence 'almost'.
19:33:09  <ChoHag> And those were because the Russians sent people in without protection and without accepting international aid.
19:33:11  <fjb> Some some thousand are almost none?
19:33:18  <ChoHag> Some few dozen.
19:33:51  <andythenorth> arguing relative deaths is probably dumb - but coal-powered energy generation causes many many more deaths and long term health problems
19:34:02  <ChoHag> Quite.
19:34:08  <ChoHag> Coal is awful.
19:34:08  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm sorry, this discussion is of the kind "there is no scientific link betewen X and Y"
19:34:09  <fjb> Don't count only the people who died at the day of the accident. Radiation kills slowly.
19:34:17  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no point discussing this
19:34:32  <andythenorth> the article I linked has the actual figures attributed to chernobyl
19:34:34  <ChoHag> The slower radiation acts, the less it kills.
19:34:42  <ChoHag> By definition, the longer the half-life, the less dangerous it is.
19:34:42  <Eddi|zuHause> it's like trying to talk to someone who doesn't believe dinosaurs existed
19:35:19  <Terkhen> <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> man, yacd and FIRS makes for really tedious "connect all industries which accept XXX or your ratings will be below anything" <-- imho yacd rating should only be counted for actually connected destinations <--- I agree with that
19:35:22  <andythenorth> long term deaths from chernobyl-contaminated-milk are counted at 15 currently
19:35:49  <fjb> No question, coal power plants are not healthy either. But that doesn't make nuclear power any better.
19:36:06  <ChoHag> fjb: Apart from the complete lack of emissions, of course.
19:36:31  <fjb> ChoHag: Go to africa to the uran mines.
19:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> nuclear power stations don't have "no emissions" either
19:36:38  <ChoHag> And the vastly (and I mean _vastly_[*]) reduced fuel requirements.
19:37:00  <ChoHag> [*] This is why TTD doesn't have uranium transport - there wouldn't be enough of a demand to be profitable.
19:37:45  <fjb> And far to few "fuel" to power all planed nuclear power plants. And not to talk about the nuclear waste.
19:38:11  <ChoHag> Hah! There's enough fuel under my garden to power the UK for decades.
19:38:30  * fjb doesn't want to live where ChoHag lives.
19:38:33  <Eddi|zuHause> for nuclear power emissions you need to count the emissions for the construction, the emissions for the transport (including protesters individual movement and police issued), and the emissions for storing the (only 1% spent) fuel
19:38:58  <ChoHag> You only need to store it because people are too stupid to just burn it again.
19:39:12  <Eddi|zuHause> nuclear power stations are _extremely_ inefficient at using the fuel
19:39:24  <ChoHag> Our decendents will be laughing at us for burying such a useful source of energy, much the same way we laugh at mediaeval doctors.
19:39:41  <ChoHag> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah, because we get so much out of so little that there's just no point.
19:39:44  <ChoHag> :)
19:40:05  <fjb> Almost nothing was buried yet. And what did has to taken back.
19:40:46  <fjb> And nuclear power is unbelievable expensive.
19:41:33  <ChoHag> Nuclear power has huge capital costs and very low and, importantly, very stable, ongoing costs.
19:42:50  <fjb> Only if you don't count the transportation of the fuel and the disposal of the waste.
19:43:35  <ChoHag> Meh. You're boring now.
19:43:40  <ChoHag> Come up with real arguments.
19:44:24  <Chris_Booth> is you smell a real arugment? :P
19:44:36  <ChoHag> No, but it was at least vaguely interesting.
19:44:46  <ChoHag> Didn't think it would last. It never does.
19:44:55  <fjb> I invite you over here, about 30 km away is a failed disposal zone, and 50 km away is the second.
19:45:02  * Zuu has managed to get X to start, only that the keyboard is not working :-)
19:45:30  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: there's an option in xorg.conf to skip autodetecting the keyboard
19:45:30  <fjb> Zuu: Who need a keyboard any way?
19:45:42  * Alberth does
19:45:48  <ChoHag> People still have X problems?
19:45:49  <Zuu> fjb: to type my password to login :-)
19:45:57  <ChoHag> Will the open sores crowd never get their act together?
19:46:04  <ChoHag> I thought this was the year of the Linux Desktop.
19:46:08  <ChoHag> Just like last year.
19:46:09  <fjb> Zuu: keycard :)
19:46:42  <Alberth> ChoHag: just like windows has no drivers problems any more :)
19:47:09  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: linux will gain some market share once microsoft decides it actually wants to hunt down unlicensed copies :p
19:47:12  * fjb has no problem with his open source environment, only the proprietary suck.
19:47:29  <ChoHag> 5 years ago installing linux was simple and Windows was disparaged for being such a PITA to install (not that anyone ever actually needed to).
19:47:40  <ChoHag> Now Windows is a doddle and Linux gets bitchy.
19:48:01  <fjb> Linux has a big marked share. There will soon be more Android devices than Windows desktops.
19:48:15  <fjb> Ore did that already happen?
19:48:21  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: luckily other industries are allowed to vent their "nuclear" waste into the atmosphere
19:48:29  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: funnily, microsoft earns more through android phones than windows phones :p
19:48:54  <ChoHag> fjb: Yeah, which Google did by stripping away all the hippy freetard bullshit.
19:49:13  <Eddi|zuHause>
19:49:34  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: I know, protection money.
19:50:06  <Eddi|zuHause> well, just another case of "the microsoft tax"
19:51:14  <ChoHag> Windows 7 is OK.
19:51:24  <ChoHag> Security is still useless. It always will be.
19:51:26  <Zuu> Well, I probably took a shortcut to comment out the wacom-lines of my xorg.conf it seems. Instead I should probably dig up the device and attach it to the computer and it will be happy :-)
19:51:49  <ChoHag> The UI is good though once you return to the old-fashioned theme.
19:52:35  <fjb> The Windows UI is so limited.
19:52:38  <ChoHag> And, as I have discovered since I revently installed windows again for the first time in nearly 10 years, has actual games.
19:52:39  <Alberth> I doubt that, I never get along very well with pure-graphical interfaces
19:52:44  <ChoHag> recently
19:52:54  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: unless you have proprietary drivers, you should get away with just removing xorg.conf
19:53:05  <ChoHag> Alberth: Oh don't get me wrong - the first thing I installed was cygwin.
19:53:15  <ChoHag> The second was vmware to get Linux on the second monitor.
19:53:56  <ChoHag> It still falls down in many ways, but much of what the Linux crowd used to point and laugh in the last 10 years has been fixed.
19:53:59  <Alberth> I just install Linux natively :)
19:54:00  * fjb has Windows on his mobile phone. :(
19:54:11  <Rubidium> "[Patch] Speed up ships the same way planes are slowed" <- what's the point? Why make ships even slower?
19:54:17  <Eddi|zuHause> windows host and linux virtual sounds awfully backwards...
19:54:21  <ChoHag> On the other hand, what the Windows crowd pointed to and laughed at in Linux et al has been studiously denied an ignored.
19:54:58  <ChoHag> Rubidium: I believe you misunderstand the phrase 'speed up'. :P
19:55:16  <ChoHag> Eddi|zuHause: I thought so too, until I realised that I had a really good graphics card and wasn't taking advantage of it.
19:55:47  <ChoHag> Now Windows has access to the hardware and I can actually play things which require 3D acceleration again.
19:55:50  <Rubidium> no, speeding up = !slowing down. He wants to make it the same way as the planes were slowed down. As the planes were sped up, he means that the ships are slowed down.
19:56:04  <ChoHag> Of course nethack and openttd don't need that...
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19:56:32  <Terkhen> virtualized linux works quite fine on windows, although I never tried to do anything really crazy with it
19:56:39  <ChoHag> Rubidium: He == Me, and the patch multiplies the ship speed where plane speed is divided.
19:57:53  <ChoHag> 'The same way' means that the reported ship speed doesn't change (ie. it still says 17mph, 25mph, whatever) but the rate of movement accross the map does.
19:58:08  <Rubidium> originally aircraft went moved 1/4th the distance a train or road vehicle would in the same time at the same listed speed
19:58:22  <ChoHag> As planes still appear to travel at 592mph but actually physically move slower than that.
19:58:48  <ChoHag> (Or whatever speed is claimed...)
19:59:01  <Rubidium> as such, the setting *only* allows the aircraft to speed up from the original
19:59:14  <ChoHag> Terkhen: It actually works really well.
19:59:24  <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> virtualized linux works quite fine on windows, although I never tried to do anything really crazy with it <-- yes, i do not doubt that. but windows that this bad habit of needing restarts frequently
19:59:29  <ChoHag> I really want to unmap ctrl-alt-del though.
19:59:57  <ChoHag> Eddi|zuHause: The linux VM can be frozen while that's done, and it isn't even that common.
20:00:34  <Eddi|zuHause> ChoHag: _every_ stupid program that was installed needed a restart back when i last used windows
20:00:49  <ChoHag> Yeah, I know.
20:00:57  <ChoHag> I hated
20:01:00  <ChoHag> it.
20:01:23  <ChoHag> It's the reason I stopped using Windows around the W98 era.
20:02:08  <ChoHag> But Microsoft apparently saw that they were even more of a laughing stock than usual and 7 sucks a lot less.
20:02:18  <ChoHag> It still sucks, but at or below a usable level.
20:03:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the last _good_ microsoft product was DOS 5.0
20:03:19  <Rubidium> Windows will always suck when "$it" has a single image for the plethora of systems they have
20:03:26  <ChoHag> Well no.
20:03:37  <ChoHag> Because DOS was shit, and it wasn't theirs.
20:03:53  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: The last good Microsoft product was IntelliMouse Optical.
20:04:10  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: actually... the enormous warning message sticker on the bottom of their keyboards is pretty good and amusing
20:04:31  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: i bought a microsoft mouse/keyboard combination 2 years ago, had to warranty-replace it twice
20:04:50  <ChoHag> Ah that's a hardware problem.
20:04:51  <Alberth> fjb: the additional keys at the keyboard were much more useful :)
20:05:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, and you can only get the CD they mention in the US
20:05:07  *** Brianetta [] has joined #openttd
20:05:23  <Zuu> Oh, I got stuck by the old problem that debian overwrites your custom xkb files and then Xorg didn't fall back to an existing keyboard layout variant.
20:05:51  <fjb> Eddi|zuHause: Don't buy that cheap combinations.
20:06:00  <Rubidium> Zuu: is there a bug report about that?
20:06:25  <Zuu> No idea, probably as the issua has been around the last 4-5 years.
20:06:27  <Rubidium> as it sounds like somewhat of a corner case to me ;)
20:06:29  <Eddi|zuHause> fjb: it was the only mouse in the store that actually fit my hand...
20:07:01  <fjb> Hands like an ice bear? :)
20:07:05  <Rubidium> Zuu: then I'd take a peek whether there actually is a report. Maybe it has an useful workaround, or the packagers simply don't know about the issue
20:07:08  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, those :p
20:07:10  <Zuu> Mybe there is a more proper way than modifying the files in /usr/share/xkb/...
20:07:27  <ChoHag> Zuu: I gave up on using my own keyboard layout.
20:07:36  <Eddi|zuHause> i now have a logitech mouse/keyboard (only paid the price difference)
20:07:38  <Alberth> Zuu: Your solution sounds like a non-optimal one :)
20:07:43  <Eddi|zuHause> hopefully that lasts longer
20:08:28  <Eddi|zuHause> with logitech stuff you have to be extremely careful, as they got some weird designer keyboard layouts
20:08:40  <fjb> IntelliMouse Optical is the mouse which survived me the longest time yet.
20:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> must really search before you find one that has normal layout
20:08:49  <ChoHag> There is only one good keyboard.
20:09:09  <ChoHag> I can't use it though or I'll wake my wife up when I get on the computer in the morning.
20:09:16  <fjb> Cherry G80. :)
20:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> "the monster" :p
20:09:37  <ChoHag> Cherry were OK.
20:09:42  <Rubidium> a proper DIN5 IBM keyboard?
20:09:48  <ChoHag> But never measured up to the Model M.
20:09:56  <fjb> So no Cherry G80, which also not that quiet.
20:10:41  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the key requirement other than fitting my hand is it must be wireless
20:10:46  <fjb> Be carefull which Cherry you buy. G80 is good, G81 is ok, G83 and G84 are awful.
20:10:57  <ChoHag> Just get a long wire.
20:11:10  <Eddi|zuHause> nope, doesn't work.
20:11:20  <ChoHag> Your wire clearly isn't long enough.
20:11:30  <SmatZ> :D
20:12:04  <Eddi|zuHause> "you have a long wire" is an insult when someone is not understanding something
20:12:35  <ChoHag> Maybe they're just pleased to see you?
20:20:49  <Zuu> Doesn't there exist a product that make any USB/PS2 keyboard "wireless"?
20:21:28  <ChoHag> There almost certainly is.
20:21:40  <Zuu> Just as there exist PS2 adapters so that you can use good old PS2 keaboards on modern computers.
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20:23:24  <Zuu> For my land line that I had 6-7 years ago, I got a really long cable instead of using those wireless phones :-D
20:27:25  <Rubidium> Zuu: those are called scissors ;)
20:28:03  <fjb> Makes every thing wireless...
20:28:23  <Zuu> Rubidium: :-D
20:33:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: but what would that help? i'd still have that annoying cable dangling out of my keyboard if i used such an adapter
20:34:31  <Zuu> Depends on if you want a keyboard model that is available as wireless or not.
20:35:03  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: there is an invention called 'glue' for such cases.
20:35:58  <Zuu> Also 'tape' can be useful
20:36:31  <ChoHag> Doesn't everyone have duck tape?
20:37:04  <Rubidium> not everyone
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20:37:20  <ChoHag> Strange.
20:37:33  <Rubidium> duct tape might be more common though, though not even that's something everyone has
20:37:53  <ChoHag> Duck and duct are both valid.
20:38:01  <fjb> Taping the key board can be counter productive.
20:38:43  <fjb> And taping a duck also...
20:38:48  <Alberth> the solution is of course to have 'enough' keyboards so you always have one nearby
20:39:28  <ChoHag> Taping a duck is a waste of good foos.
20:39:29  <ChoHag> food
20:48:06  <Eddi|zuHause> which one is the food?
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20:52:28  <andythenorth> we need pipelines :P
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20:56:09  <DanMacK> Code them :P
20:57:07  <fjb> A special road set with invisible trucks. :)
20:57:29  <Alberth> lol
21:03:28  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a station set with pipes
21:03:48  <Rubidium> and an objects newgrf
21:04:12  <Eddi|zuHause> but objects are quite unsuitible to transport anything :p
21:04:32  <Rubidium> pfft... it's not even released yet ;)
21:05:21  <fjb> What happened to road types?
21:05:48  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138 got distracted
21:06:11  <Alberth> he probably has a pa..
21:07:15  <Eddi|zuHause> these times are long gone
21:07:16  <fjb> How can we disdistract him?
21:08:10  <Rubidium> possibly by offering him a (fiscally) good enough job offer for it?
21:09:48  <Eddi|zuHause> hmm... neighbours are quite loud for this time of day
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21:33:13  <Terkhen> good night
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22:03:56  <frosch123> night
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22:27:27  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:32:23  <Cyberdot> hi there
23:32:27  <Cyberdot> i have a question
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23:33:25  <Cyberdot> how do you play your first months/years? do you go first to industries, or do you start with mail services, etc.
23:35:45  <TWerkhoven> entirely your choice
23:36:07  <TWerkhoven> starting passengers using planes is a good one, or delivering coal
23:36:09  <__ln__> entirely Cyberdot's choice how TWerkhoven starts his game?
23:36:29  <TWerkhoven> :p
23:36:37  <Cyberdot> xD
23:37:38  <Cyberdot> i see. and when is a truck/bus network profitable? only in suburban services, as in serving only short radius?
23:38:24  <TWerkhoven> i would say so
23:38:32  <TWerkhoven> you can do longe runs, but you need huge numbers for that
23:40:26  <Cyberdot> trains ftw, then
23:40:40  <TWerkhoven> petty much
23:42:16  <Cyberdot> in large cities, where the bus stop coverage take say, half of it, and another bus stop takes the other half means that i can make business as if i was transporting people to other cities?
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23:57:31  <fjb> __ln__: Trainer and player...

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