Log for #openttd on 3rd June 2011:
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05:04:32  <planetmaker> good morning
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05:49:06  <josepr83> helo
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06:36:30  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:09:21  <ChoHag> <Michi> Here's the bug fix release 2.
07:09:22  <ChoHag> Woohoo!
07:10:50  <ChoHag> Also, about feckin' time.
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07:35:14  <planetmaker> a patch to a patch is always on time, never too late nor ever too early ;-)
07:36:41  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought that was "a wizard is never late"
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07:39:32  <planetmaker> :-)
07:39:49  <planetmaker> badly cited from memory, but still recognized ;-)
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07:47:36  <Terkhen> :P
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08:04:10  <bodis> morning
08:04:22  <Alberth> moin
08:04:31  <planetmaker> salut
08:05:16  <bodis> only have a couple of minutes now so wont bother asking questions but I am glad I found my way here now ::)
08:05:38  <planetmaker> :-)
08:05:59  <bodis> discovered openttd 4 days ago
08:06:10  <bodis> boy isnt it adictive
08:06:10  <planetmaker> there's also a well-frequented forum at
08:06:25  <Terkhen> hi bodis
08:06:37  <bodis> hey
08:06:39  <planetmaker> but yes, probably most people here will agree, bodis ;-)
08:06:46  <Terkhen> yes, I'm now struggling to code instead of playing :/
08:06:52  <planetmaker> he
08:07:07  <planetmaker> Terkhen, it's also a kind of adiction ;-) - or playing with other means
08:07:08  <bodis> yep I was coding before and now havent opened gedit for 4 days straight :)
08:07:21  <Terkhen> :D
08:07:48  <bodis> anyway gotta take kids to the park talk to you lot later
08:07:53  <Terkhen> see you bodis
08:07:56  <planetmaker> enjoy
08:08:04  <bodis> yeah always :)
08:08:05  <Alberth> a new yacd
08:08:19  <planetmaker> yup. Already compiled it this morning during breakfast ;-)
08:09:14  <Terkhen> and it fixes the most annoying parts :)
08:09:30  <Terkhen> that's why I'm struggling, but I really should do something useful today :P
08:09:36  <planetmaker> reads like it, yes
08:09:39  <planetmaker> :-D
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09:31:55  <bodis> hey again
09:32:29  <Terkhen> hi bodis
09:32:47  <bodis> right as you might have guesed I am new to ottd
09:33:08  <bodis> I am a debian man and current release on debian is 1.0.4
09:33:13  <bodis> am I missing alot?
09:33:34  <Noldo> check what you might get from backports
09:34:04  <bodis> just wondered if there is alot of difference
09:34:11  <bodis> I wont be multiplaying yet
09:34:40  <Noldo> You'll have to read through the changelogs to know for sure
09:34:58  <bodis> k :)
09:35:05  <Noldo> I'd propably play atleast few games with the version you can get easy
09:35:29  <bodis> right then you guys do still play single player?
09:35:51  <bodis> cos all the infor on the net suggests that majority are playing coop
09:35:53  <bodis> :)
09:36:01  <Terkhen> yes, single player is quite common too
09:36:04  <Eddi|zuHause> get the latest release from there are also .debs available
09:36:05  <Noldo> I'm all Eve online and League of Legends lately, but there is nothing wrong with single player
09:36:35  <Eddi|zuHause> 1.0.x is missing quite a lot over 1.1.x
09:36:37  <Noldo>
09:36:41  <Terkhen> in fact until a few months ago I only played single player
09:36:59  <bodis> ok ty
09:37:06  <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: "coop" is only a very loud minority ;)
09:37:12  <bodis> good :)
09:37:39  <Noldo> oh my there are a lot of thing tagged Feature in 1.1.0-beta1
09:37:43  <Eddi|zuHause> there are many very different playing styles around
09:37:55  <bodis> so I managed to get my game 20 years in game and got 20mil pounds
09:38:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Noldo: of course, almost a year worth of new developments
09:38:22  <bodis> is it all about trains and plains?
09:38:29  <bodis> roads seems to be not needed at all?
09:38:37  <bodis> what is the general idea?
09:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> you can have ships and trucks too. especially within cities where there isn't a lot of space
09:39:07  <Eddi|zuHause> from online content you can get tram sets, those are incredibly well for passenger transport in cities
09:39:09  <bodis> but rail seems to be the main money maker?
09:39:28  <bodis> what is the goal these days?
09:39:40  <bodis> get most money or create the best infrastructure?
09:39:44  <Eddi|zuHause> there is no real goal
09:39:47  <bodis> hehe
09:39:48  <Eddi|zuHause> pick one
09:40:20  <bodis> does the game stop at 2050 even if you start 1930?
09:40:25  <bodis> or is it 100 years?
09:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> the game never stops
09:40:36  <bodis> ohh
09:40:42  <Terkhen> the score screen always appear at 2050, but you can keep playing for a few million years IIRC
09:40:47  <Eddi|zuHause> 2050 you get a nice table with your score, but it has no real end
09:41:15  <bodis> ahh
09:41:23  <bodis> what size maps do you guys go for?
09:41:24  <Eddi|zuHause> the score calculation isn't the best part of the game anyway
09:41:31  <V453000> this game has basically no limits :P that is why it is so good
09:41:55  <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: as a beginner, you shouldn't get too large, but not too small either
09:41:58  <bodis> heh need to rethink my strategy :)
09:42:05  <Eddi|zuHause> 256 or 512 each side
09:42:14  <bodis> got 512 now
09:42:55  <bodis> should I play with oppnents or on my own?
09:43:21  <V453000> sure, it has multiplayer
09:43:23  <Eddi|zuHause> the opponents might teach you some things, but they tend to get in your way quickly
09:43:38  <Eddi|zuHause> (if you mean AI opponents)
09:43:43  <bodis> yep
09:43:53  <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played with opponents in years
09:43:57  <V453000> oh :D I didnt even consider those
09:44:48  <bodis> o the real goal is not to score at 2050, its to create a super network
09:45:16  <Eddi|zuHause> yep
09:45:19  <V453000> pretty much
09:45:34  <V453000> you create your own goal basically
09:46:02  <bodis> ok then, so really you wanna connect cities with roads, rail and the rest
09:46:18  <Terkhen> it is relatively easy to get perfect rating before 2050
09:46:34  <V453000> ^
09:46:42  <Terkhen> I always fail because of the "profits over 20.000€" parameter, but only because I use road vehicles
09:46:51  <Terkhen> if I only used trains I would have no problems on getting 1000
09:47:09  <Terkhen> so it is a nice goal when you are learning, later you forget about it
09:47:22  <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: basically you set yourself goals like "nice looking", "very efficient", "very high cargo amount" or "connect everything" and then play on
09:47:37  <bodis> k :)
09:47:42  <Terkhen> yes, those are the most frequent goals :)
09:48:01  <Terkhen> although I usually do "I'm going to build stuff until I'm bored"
09:48:17  <V453000> which usually results best :p
09:48:22  <Terkhen> :P
09:48:43  <bodis> right I read somewhere about creating your main depot away from cities so you can expand freele?
09:49:12  <Eddi|zuHause> not all tips you find on the net are important for all playing styles
09:49:23  <V453000> or even for at least any :P
09:49:25  <Eddi|zuHause> i myself play without breakdowns, so i don't really have a need for depots
09:49:36  <bodis> breakdowns?
09:49:54  <V453000> do your trains break once in a while?
09:50:04  <V453000> like they stop and produce steam and then they continue
09:50:16  <bodis> ahh
09:50:35  <bodis> no I dont have breakdowns
09:50:47  <V453000> :)
09:50:52  <bodis> do you have like a main line through the map and connect to it?
09:51:15  <V453000> yes, I always did that
09:51:28  <V453000> keeps it somewhat systematic
09:51:29  <Eddi|zuHause> this was my last game on a small (128x256) map:,%205.%20Nov%201988.png (12MB)
09:53:02  <V453000> looks nice :) my last game on a small map resulted in 5000 road vehicles ._.
09:53:22  <bodis> wow
09:53:42  <bodis> Error: Dependency is not satisfiable: libicu38 (>= 3.8-5)
09:53:44  <bodis> hmm
09:53:54  <Terkhen> how do you manage the buses for local transport at big towns? lots of groups, or a single group following a large route?
09:54:13  <Terkhen> bodis: that usually happens when you download a deb file that is not created for your debian/ubuntu version
09:54:23  <Eddi|zuHause> i make several groups. one for each line
09:54:32  <bodis> hmm that was a squeeeze
09:54:35  <Eddi|zuHause> wait, i have a picture for that as well
09:54:41  <bodis> damn lenny :)
09:54:59  <Terkhen> ok :)
09:55:09  <bodis> lol thanks :)
09:55:30  <Terkhen> I have started recently to use groups, I'm still trying to find the best way to organize them
09:55:37  <V453000> does alpine climate work fine with FIRS?
09:56:11  <bodis> do the towns join together later in the game?
09:56:23  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: no, i hacked it
09:56:26  <Terkhen> bodis: they keep being separate towns, but they can grow into each other
09:56:32  <bodis> k
09:56:36  <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: oh :D
09:56:47  <Terkhen> OpenGFX+ Landscape has an alpine setting too :)
09:57:01  <V453000> yes but that doesnt allow ttd base tiles
09:57:12  <V453000> ... does it?
09:57:25  <Eddi|zuHause> only opengfx base
09:58:02  <V453000> yes ... so how do you "hack" it? :)
09:58:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the RV groups:,%204.%20Aug%201953_3.png
09:58:35  <Terkhen> Eddi|zuHause: thanks :)
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09:59:21  <bodis> do you need to start planting big stations at the start of the game or do you do alot of demolishing later on?
09:59:30  <bodis> cos it seems that towns grow in your way
09:59:56  <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: you replace sprite 1060 (iirc) of alpinew.grf with an unconditional jump to end of file, and remove the alpine compatibility check from firs
10:00:20  <V453000> oh, so modifying the newgrfs
10:00:40  <V453000> bodis: just set their growth to slower rates or disallow them to build roads on their own (best option)
10:00:49  <Eddi|zuHause> additional work required if you want food acceptance for houses, but easier to load swedish houses, that almost eleminates all alpine/default houses from the map
10:00:57  <bodis> ohh
10:01:13  <bodis> but if they dont grow you dont get business
10:01:28  <V453000> they can grow
10:01:37  <ChoHag> Bloody coal mine stopped shipping to the destination immediately after I paid for a £100k line linking to it.
10:01:38  <V453000> but you manage the roads so they do not screw it up
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10:05:58  <Wolf01> hello
10:10:20  <bodis> so if you build roads to towns they will grow only around roads?
10:10:38  <ChoHag> Not 'only'.
10:26:30  <bodis> do you guys download any addons?
10:26:52  <ChoHag> I do.
10:27:29  <bodis> there are a few new GRF items to download
10:27:36  <bodis> download everything?
10:27:40  <ChoHag> No.
10:28:09  <bodis> whats all that newGFR ?
10:28:17  <bodis> seems to be items like new trains etc
10:29:39  * ChoHag shrugs
10:29:40  <ChoHag> Anything.
10:29:45  <bodis> hehe :)
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10:37:19  <Alberth> extensions originally containing only graphics, but nowadays you can code almost everything in the game in it; vehicles, tracks, houses, industries, eye-candy, etc
10:38:13  <Rubidium> bad wording...
10:38:14  <Alberth> usually you should refrain from loading several sets that do the same
10:38:28  <Rubidium> almost everything is far far from true
10:39:26  <Alberth> there is a better description available, in less words than the entire spec?
10:40:39  <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your general boundaries of "everything"
10:41:08  <ChoHag> He did say 'almost' everything.
10:41:11  <Eddi|zuHause> if you mean "life, the universe, and everything", then the answer is 42.
10:41:14  <Rubidium> yes, but what you just said kinda implies that all patches can be implemented as NewGRF and thus downloaded via the in-game downloader. Only reinforcing the "myth" that it is actually possible
10:42:16  <Rubidium> it's more like NewGRFs provides constants for OpenTTD's game model
10:42:55  <Eddi|zuHause> for various interpretations of "constant" :p
10:42:56  <Rubidium> but, that now most of those constants can be computed on the fly by the NewGRF
10:43:09  <Alberth> like industries behave like a constant :p
10:43:56  <bodis> so should I download anything?
10:44:02  <Eddi|zuHause> while Alberth's description might have been too general, yours was too limited definitely
10:44:07  <Rubidium> i.e. NewGRFs don't add any features beyond what is implemented in OpenTTD's game model
10:44:10  <ChoHag> Anything which has an interesting description.
10:44:28  <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: you can download everything, but you should not enable everything at the same time
10:44:32  <bodis> ok I think I will stick with original for a while :)
10:44:32  <Alberth> bodis: click 'online content' in the main menu
10:44:39  <bodis> did
10:45:06  <Alberth> there is a NewGRF category there :)
10:45:10  <bodis> yep
10:45:35  <Alberth> unfortunately, it misses useful tagging, so unless you sort of know what to look for, it is a big pile
10:45:59  <Eddi|zuHause> start slowly, with one newgrf set, explore what it does, then the next game add another, and so on
10:46:12  <Alberth> obviously these extensions are discussed at the forum
10:46:29  <bodis> k thanks
10:46:34  <bodis> I will read up
10:46:49  <bodis> but first need to get my first city going :)
10:46:56  <bodis> thanks for advice guys
10:46:59  <Alberth>   is the section for the newgrfs themselves.
10:47:01  <bodis> need to get me kids out again :)
10:47:06  <bodis> ty
10:47:16  <Alberth> in the openttd forums, you'll find use of them in context of openttd
10:47:26  <Alberth> yw
10:47:40  <Alberth> always glad to help someone to an addiction
10:47:42  <Alberth> :)
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11:31:12  <planetmaker> <V453000> yes ... so how do you "hack" it? :) <-- there is no legal way which also looks good
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12:36:13  <ChoHag> Wtf? That's twice now supply industries have stopped shipping to connected destinations.
12:36:16  <ChoHag> Michi what did you DO?
12:37:47  <glx> how many stations around ?
12:38:00  <Alberth> any revent new destinations popped up?
12:38:04  <Alberth> *recent
12:38:06  <ChoHag> New destinations, yes.
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12:38:27  <ChoHag> But that shouldn't close down active routes.
12:38:35  <Alberth> why not?
12:38:53  <ChoHag> Not without a big warning. "Your trains are all about to start losing money fast."
12:39:22  <peter1138> i tend to agree
12:39:33  <peter1138> a well serviced route shouldn't be replaced, imho
12:39:34  <Alberth> such a warning sounds fair enough
12:40:06  <ChoHag> Closing down is fine - business is business after all.
12:40:49  <ChoHag> But not without warning, at the very least.
12:41:05  <peter1138> it should also be supplier-centric, i reckon
12:41:07  <ChoHag> Perhaps the option of a cash injection to keep it going to see it if becomes profitable.
12:41:13  <Alberth> sounds like a setting
12:41:21  <ChoHag> ie. the ~ £100k line I'd just finished when the route closed.
12:41:45  <Alberth> oh, that happens with plain openttd too
12:41:52  <ChoHag> yup.
12:41:53  <ChoHag> PITA
12:42:30  <peter1138> something like industries prefering nearby suppliers unless a long distance supplier has greater production
12:42:37  <peter1138> would be ncie
12:43:44  <Alberth> that does not eliminate the above problem
12:44:11  <peter1138> not by itself, no
12:44:17  <ChoHag> I think perhaps supply routes can open and close in the same fashion as industries open/close.
12:44:23  <ChoHag> Probably in the same news item.
12:44:31  <Alberth> oh boy :)
12:44:56  <Alberth> there is too much such news already :)
12:45:20  <ChoHag> That way new industries can 'supply' to pretty much everything in a certain radius, then once links are made, only the profitable ones remain.
12:45:33  <ChoHag> Yeah there needs to be better news filtering
12:46:17  <Alberth> huh? -->  "then once links are made, only the profitable ones remain."
12:46:18  <ChoHag> eg. ignore any industry not in a catchment area of one of my own stations.
12:46:45  * planetmaker always has turned off all news ;-)
12:46:49  <planetmaker> except vehicle crashes
12:46:50  <ChoHag> Well a coal mine (say) in the (perhaps misnamed) outgoing cargo section to everything within a certain distance.
12:46:59  <ChoHag> Then the player comes in and links some of those up.
12:47:14  <ChoHag> Eventually those which are linked up will remain in the list, the others will go away.
12:47:28  <Alberth> you are thinking of cargo-dist (dest?)
12:47:50  <ChoHag> Occasionally (not just when new industries are planted) new links will open up, perhaps with a subsidy offer, with a chance to remain if the transportation is supplied.
12:47:54  <Alberth> yacd doesn't care about what you do, afaik, at this time
12:48:05  <planetmaker> which is not too bad
12:48:25  <planetmaker> if it cared, it'd be cargodist
12:48:43  <ChoHag> There ought to be some amount of caring.
12:49:08  <planetmaker> only thing which indeed also bothers me is the high volatility of routes when there are few suppliers and many recipients of a cargo
12:49:11  <Alberth> I can imagine that to be a setting
12:49:14  <ChoHag> Usually busineses care most about those things which make actual money.
12:49:15  <Terkhen> that's work for a different patch IMO, you might want to try the cargodist addition that fonso did for yacd
12:49:52  <ChoHag> Oh I know YACD doesn't do this.
12:49:57  <ChoHag> I'm just thinking aloud.
12:50:10  <planetmaker> well. Mixing up unrelated problems doesn't help solutions at all
12:50:21  <ChoHag> How is it unrelated?
12:51:27  <ChoHag> Problem: Supply/demand links which are used nonetheless close down. Solution: Profitability of a transport is a prime deciding factor in whether a supplier continues to supply to a particular destination.
12:53:00  <ChoHag> Closely related, industries will happily supply most of their cargo to an unconnected industry on the other side of the map.
12:53:28  <planetmaker> how is the latter a problem?
12:53:38  <ChoHag> It's not. It's just a bit silly.
12:53:44  <planetmaker> why?
12:54:07  <planetmaker> where do you think the coal which is fed to the power plant a few streets further down is dug out of the Earth?
12:54:14  <Alberth> yacd just adds the idea of cargo having a destination. Policies how to allocate/maintain destinations is a level on top of that, imho
12:54:17  <planetmaker> where does the butter come from? Or the tomatoes?
12:55:04  <ChoHag> Um. Completely fucking stupid is not the same thing as 'a bit silly'.
12:55:20  <planetmaker> I don't see the 'sillyness' in it, not the least.
12:55:25  <planetmaker> It's even relaistic
12:55:30  <ChoHag> As a creator of widgets, I'm happy to sell to whoever will buy them, but more likely to sell to people close by as shipping is simpler and easier.
12:55:30  <planetmaker> *realistic
12:56:02  <ChoHag> At the very least, people close to me are more likely to buy (ie. demand) widgets from me than an identical widget manufacturer 1000s of miles away.
12:56:46  <planetmaker> unless they differ by something the rough cargo specs of OpenTTD cannot grasp
12:56:59  <ChoHag> Indeed not, but that is the exception rather than the rule.
12:57:04  <planetmaker> may that be price or functionality or whatever.
12:57:22  <planetmaker> if you say, so it must be so. I maintain to disagree.
12:57:24  <ChoHag> I daresay that more of the oil drilled out of the North Sea goes to the Scottish refineries than those in the US or the far east.
12:57:32  <ChoHag> Some will, undoubtedly.
12:57:36  <Thorn_> Yes, the north sea belongs to us.
12:57:49  <Thorn_> And we will take it back, and with it, our FREEDOM
12:59:45  <ChoHag> This is not my opinion.
12:59:48  <ChoHag> It's business 101.
13:00:11  <ChoHag> Buy cheap, sell dear. Cheep is directly correlated with Close (ie. transportation costs).
13:00:40  <fjb> The transport company does not buy the cargo. It just transports it. So when a factory at the other side of the map buys some stuff it has to be transported there somehow.
13:00:50  <ChoHag> There's always a reason why a general rule doesn't hold in a specific case, but that doesn't stop it from being a general rule.
13:01:04  <ChoHag> Well yes.
13:01:35  <ChoHag> But the liklihood of a factory buying stuff from the other side of the world is a lot lower than the likilhood of buying stuff from a supplier a few hundres miles away.
13:01:37  <planetmaker> fjb just made your whole argument void, though ;-)
13:02:04  <fjb> TTD is about transporting stuff, not about buying it.
13:02:44  <ChoHag> Yes, and that's why it turned into a game of find-the-longest-link-you-can.
13:02:46  <ChoHag> Which is fine.
13:03:27  <ChoHag> But YACD is a (generally quite successful) attempt to undo that by introducing, or perhaps correcting, the concept of supply and demand.
13:03:29  <fjb> Longest link doesn't always give the most profit.
13:03:51  <fjb> Even without YADP.
13:04:25  <Belugas> hello
13:05:19  <Terkhen> hi Belugas
13:05:35  <fjb> Moin Belugas
13:06:11  <Belugas> hi guys :)
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13:22:28  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- a few things like aligning and widget size are not right in this picture...
13:22:39  <Eddi|zuHause> and big gui without big font seems kinda pointless
13:23:26  <Terkhen> yes, I wonder why he did not change it
13:25:05  <Eddi|zuHause> all button texts should be center-aligned imho
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13:31:48  <andythenorth> hello
13:33:55  <fjb> Moin andythenorth
13:41:39  <Terkhen> hi andythenorth
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14:03:38  <Eddi|zuHause> "Graphics set: original_dos_de (0)" <-- does anyone have a statistics how the distribution between base set usage is?
14:06:55  <Rubidium> pm does, IIRC
14:07:00  <Rubidium> although...
14:07:29  <Rubidium> ... it's more a bug report per base set statistic
14:07:59  <Eddi|zuHause> could crawl the screenshot forum ;)
14:08:51  <Rubidium> I guess it's better that orudge runs osie over all attachments or something
14:11:09  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause:
14:11:26  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, about 65% of the bug reporters use OpenGFX
14:11:40  <Eddi|zuHause> interesting
14:12:21  <planetmaker>
14:12:35  <planetmaker> not a huge statistical basis, but... consistent
14:13:28  <Rubidium> ah, I forgot ones they pasted as a comment
14:14:05  <Rubidium> but yes, as you can see... 6 times as many people use no graphics than the original german dos graphics
14:14:35  <Eddi|zuHause> how does one use "no" graphics?
14:14:47  *** Lakie [~Lakie@] has quit [Quit: bbl]
14:15:36  <Rubidium> crash before a graphics set is chosen
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14:16:03  <planetmaker> Rubidium, how did you get by that statistics?
14:16:43  <Rubidium> grepping the tracker's attachments
14:17:08  <planetmaker> so all attachment since when flyspray started?
14:17:12  <Rubidium> yep
14:17:29  <planetmaker> that gives a certain bias ;-)
14:17:41  <Rubidium> why?
14:18:00  <planetmaker> as OpenGFX was not around since the beginnings of FlySpray? Or do I err?
14:18:06  <Rubidium> true
14:18:10  <Rubidium> very true in fact
14:18:14  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but nobody cares about opengfx ;)
14:18:20  <Rubidium> but...
14:18:26  <Eddi|zuHause> the bias for non-unique users is way bigger
14:18:36  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, not in the data set I provided
14:18:53  <planetmaker> but yes, it is. But my data also show that that bias is not big
14:18:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and i guess the number of bug reports actually increased
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14:19:24  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you also need to consider that the crashlog is not as old as flyspray either
14:19:34  <Rubidium> ... the crash logger data grep crawled through was only introduced in 1.0.0, whereas OpenGFX existed a dozen moons before that
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14:19:55  <planetmaker> :-) also true
14:20:21  <Ammler> hmm, what was first opengfx or openttd dos support?
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14:20:30  <planetmaker> the latter
14:20:35  <Ammler> but not much
14:21:30  <Eddi|zuHause> what? dos graphics support was almost as old as openttd itself
14:21:35  <Ammler> nah
14:21:41  <Ammler> 0.5 didn't have it
14:21:57  <Ammler> not sure about 0.6
14:22:00  <Rubidium> Ammler: closeer to half a gross of moons
14:22:28  <Rubidium> Ammler: look for "OpenTTD runs with the grf files of the DOS version" in the changelog
14:22:40  <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: i'd rather say openttd was palette-agnostic right from the beginning, only since newgrfs came along the trouble started with multiplayer
14:23:42  <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, not true
14:23:53  <peter1138> hmm, well, sort of
14:23:59  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway DOS grf support was here long before i came
14:24:12  <peter1138> dos grf support wasn't just about palettes
14:24:23  <peter1138> the dos grfs miss some sprites that the windows grfs have
14:24:35  <planetmaker> hu?
14:24:52  <Eddi|zuHause> anything other than the fishuk-icon?
14:25:23  <peter1138> - Fix: Non-existing sprite #5125 (presignal). The DOS grf file trgi.grf has 6 less sprites than the windows one [SF#1188777]
14:26:10  <peter1138> yes, sourceforge, not flyspray :)
14:26:25  <Ammler> hmm, well :-)
14:26:33  <peter1138> that fix is r2229
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14:27:04  <Eddi|zuHause> so nobody even tried for 1200 revisions? :p
14:27:05  <Rubidium> planetmaker: those are the fisheye things. The rest is just because for DOS it put the extra GRFs' sprites 6 positions earlier
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14:28:29  <peter1138>     (svn r1038) Feature: OpenTTD runs with the grf files of the DOS version
14:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> "MI6 replaces bomb-building instructions with cake-recipie"
14:28:38  <peter1138> so it didn't, before that
14:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but large parts of that revision only handles the filenames
14:30:08  <peter1138> a lot of it is the palettes
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14:39:54  <planetmaker> hm, a certain Terkhen was faster with the reply in the water tower and banks thread ;-)
14:45:08  <Rubidium> planetmaker:
14:47:22  <Rubidium> so much time wasted to make it valid html ;)
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14:47:46  <planetmaker> :-) thank you
14:48:01  <planetmaker> plain text would have sufficed ;-)
14:50:50  <planetmaker> he... there's a surprising amount of variation of what actually NewStations v0.42 from 05.09.05 actually is ;-)
14:51:13  <planetmaker> 7 or 8 md5sums...
14:52:16  <Eddi|zuHause> the name is wrong anyway, it's actually NewStations v0.44
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14:52:42  <Eddi|zuHause> so you have 3 different grfs by 2 palettes, makes 6 files
14:54:39  <planetmaker> World Airliners Set Modified Development Release r538 <-- also around several times
14:55:03  <planetmaker> ttrs 3.02a around also a couple of times (6)
14:55:23  <Eddi|zuHause> what data is the foundation of this list?
14:55:34  <planetmaker> servers reporting their use
14:55:59  <planetmaker> I assume. As I asked for it ;-)
14:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> currently running servers?
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15:02:15  <Rubidium> nope, all used NewGRFs by any server that the masterserver's updater did have the time for to get the name for
15:03:30  <Rubidium> (there are 3 newgrfs it didn't get the name for so those aren't listed)
15:04:19  <peter1138> lol
15:04:24  <peter1138> grif 00000001
15:04:26  <peter1138> *grfid
15:04:53  <Eddi|zuHause> aren't there some GRFIDs that are reserved?
15:04:58  <peter1138> lots of HEQS
15:05:00  <planetmaker> FFxxxxxx
15:05:20  <peter1138> hmm, people using opengfx as newgrf?
15:05:32  <Eddi|zuHause> there are tons of ECS grfs
15:05:34  <Rubidium> probably from long long ago
15:05:38  <planetmaker> Thus the last two should not be there. But there's some sleeping bug, IIRC
15:05:46  <peter1138> FBFB seems popular
15:05:51  <planetmaker> foobar
15:06:12  <planetmaker> it's his "call sign"
15:06:15  <Rubidium> when the check wasn't working correctly
15:06:20  <peter1138> fbfb0401 is metro track, and also firs
15:06:21  <planetmaker> yes
15:06:31  <planetmaker> :-)
15:06:32  <Rubidium> or even... the extra grf used in 0.6.x
15:07:39  <peter1138> GRF\界面\OTTD枩柔草地.grf
15:07:39  <peter1138> i see
15:08:19  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so all servers that ever reported to the masterserver?
15:08:43  <Eddi|zuHause> (and that were online for a significant amount of time)
15:09:17  <Rubidium> since sept 2007 IIRC
15:09:44  <Rubidium> or since I rewrote the masterserver
15:09:48  <Rubidium> whichever came last
15:10:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "Doppelstockwagen DBz750" <-- some grfs are out there that i never heard of
15:11:09  <Eddi|zuHause> 5353xxxx
15:12:20  <peter1138> 504Exxxx is me
15:12:30  <peter1138> dunno about russianw.grf though
15:12:37  <peter1138> could be though
15:12:42  <Eddi|zuHause> glyphs?
15:12:56  <peter1138> yeah, i might've done a unicode version of the original
15:14:01  <planetmaker> now, though... do we make an authorative list of taken grfIDs from that?
15:14:26  <planetmaker> similar to how people can claim AI short names?
15:14:52  <Ammler> train length display in the depot does not work with Verdana
15:15:54  <Rubidium> planetmaker: it is a list of taken GRF IDs
15:16:26  <Rubidium> but I wouldn't call it authorative
15:17:16  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if FBFB is foobar, what is 4642 then? (that should be "FB" if i didn't miscount)
15:17:59  <peter1138> probably uses both :)
15:18:00  <planetmaker> Rubidium, it's certainly not all NewGRFs and their IDs. But it certainly would be a good start.
15:18:33  <Rubidium> you could compare it to the grfid list from grfcrawler
15:18:44  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it certainly serves for blocking these IDs from bananas
15:19:00  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, doesn't make sense. Authors might want to upload them
15:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: name comparison?
15:19:26  <planetmaker> How?
15:19:38  <peter1138> besides, if you blocked based on id, someone would just change the id
15:19:51  <planetmaker> that'd be the point
15:20:08  <planetmaker> to not add new newgrfs using an already taken ID. But still...
15:20:50  <Rubidium> if they're not on bananas yet, who really cares?
15:21:03  * planetmaker doesn't ;-)
15:21:57  <planetmaker> Uploaded IDs are already blocked by default
15:22:33  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: someone who wants to upload such a GRF gets a message: "a GRF with ID XX XX XX XX and name YYYY already exists, but is not uploaded to BaNaNaS yet. if you are the author of this set, please contact <support> for permission to upload. if you have a different set, please change the GRFID, check <website> for list of used GRF-IDs"
15:23:18  <Eddi|zuHause> with fixed style ;)
15:23:24  <planetmaker> :-)
15:24:16  <planetmaker> Might make sense. But then, admittedly, I don't think that any of the old NewGRFs which are not on bananas will ever get there - thus I'm not really convinced it is work well spent
15:24:35  <Eddi|zuHause> err... there's a NewShips with ID 6D32...? "mB"?
15:24:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no
15:24:44  <Eddi|zuHause> not even that
15:25:06  * Alberth reads m2
15:25:15  <Eddi|zuHause> m2, yes
15:26:25  <planetmaker> maybe an eddi-like hack of an existing NewGRF ;-)
15:26:35  <planetmaker> to circumvent some whatever check
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15:30:02  <planetmaker> my search string query is too long for grfcrawler ;-)
15:30:23  * Rubidium sees that as a low priority feature request... first all the bugs in bananas ought to be fixed ;)
15:30:39  <Rubidium> planetmaker: just request a "dump" of grfid + name from eis_os
15:31:34  <Eddi|zuHause> a simple website with a search field "is this grfid used yet" might be useful. put it in a sticky in the grf development forum
15:32:39  <peter1138> one day it'll support 32bpp too
15:32:40  <planetmaker> but there's no place yet which to query, Eddi|zuHause
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15:33:18  <planetmaker> 4 of 41 IDs found on the first test in grfcrawler
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15:35:25  <Rubidium> planetmaker: I'd like to know the reverse
15:35:37  <Rubidium> how many ids from grfcrawler are known by the masterserver
15:36:07  <planetmaker> let's see what he'll reply
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15:44:50  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is the "Do not put files into content_download, they may be overwritten" thing part of the readme?
15:45:18  <planetmaker> the "do not put them there" yes. Overwritten... not really.
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15:45:37  <planetmaker> But it's clearly said that user files have no belonging there
15:45:50  <Eddi|zuHause> well, better add it
15:46:38  <planetmaker> <-- who doesn't obey it...
15:48:42  <Eddi|zuHause> maybe even put a "directories.txt" (copy of section 4.2) into ~/.openttd
15:49:02  <planetmaker> also a readme_files.txt? ;-)
15:50:14  <Eddi|zuHause> redundancy is very important in educating people :p
15:50:59  <planetmaker> which then lists readme, known_bugs, changelog.txt, docs/admin_network,txt, docs/Readme_OS2.txt, docs/o??_format.txt docs/multiplayer.txt docs/landscape*.html docs/HOWTO_compile_lang_files.txt docs/ReadmeWindows_MSVC.txt
15:51:06  <planetmaker> oh, docs/32bpp.txt
15:52:30  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i mean, people who manage to find My Documents\OpenTTD might have never seen the binary and its readme before
15:52:38  <planetmaker> I mean... readme has even a table of content. So who doesn't open a readme doesn't look into directories.txt either
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15:53:03  <planetmaker> that might be true. But that then just should mean to place the readme.txt there
15:53:21  <Eddi|zuHause> possible
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15:54:20  <planetmaker> which then c/should mention where to find the additional doc files... maybe just another copy of the readme file
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16:21:32  <andythenorth> Ammler: there was some talk about a bananas dev environment, maybe on a vm?
16:23:21  <Ammler> andythenorth: no problem, just tell me what you need
16:23:27  <andythenorth> I'm not sure
16:23:35  <andythenorth> I don't know how the production environment is configured
16:23:36  <andythenorth> :)
16:23:40  <andythenorth> who does?
16:23:52  <Ammler> Truebrain only maybe :-)
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16:24:07  <andythenorth> hmmph
16:24:49  <planetmaker> nginx and django. The database is MySQL afaik
16:25:09  <andythenorth> :P
16:25:11  <Ammler> I guess, we could simply use the svn?
16:25:18  <planetmaker> of what?
16:25:32  <Ammler> bananas?
16:26:16  <planetmaker> not quite, I guess. It can't be in the repo as there are files which contain passwords
16:26:32  <planetmaker> but it's a start
16:27:03  <Rubidium> everything but the passwords are in subversion
16:27:05  <Ammler>
16:28:16  <Ammler> andythenorth: are you able to setup a server?
16:28:27  <Rubidium> IIRC you need the whole website directory
16:28:50  <Ammler> Rubidium: not possible for you to setup a kind of stage server?
16:28:55  <Ammler> might be easier...
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16:29:19  <Ammler> not that I mind :-)
16:29:29  <TrueBrain> better question, why you would want something like that
16:29:52  <Ammler> TrueBrain: how should andythenorth test patches for bananas?
16:30:13  <TrueBrain> not; BaNaNaS should be considered dead
16:30:16  <TrueBrain> and only be used to study
16:30:20  <TrueBrain> making patches for it is silly
16:30:35  <Ammler> you think, someone should start from scratch?
16:31:19  <Yexo> why should someone start from scratch if there already is a codebase available?
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16:31:27  <Yexo> ie why would making patches for bananas be silly?
16:31:56  <TrueBrain> I love that I have to say the same thing every 3 months or so :D :D :)
16:32:00  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is poorly written
16:32:04  <TrueBrain> and performance poorly
16:32:10  <TrueBrain> reading the code would be identical to writing it from scratch
16:32:14  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: also if bananas in your eyes has a broken leg, that's no argument against people trying to provide a walking stick
16:32:16  <TrueBrain> wirting from scratch in this case will be much better
16:32:19  <TrueBrain> trust me, I wrote it :)
16:32:32  <TrueBrain> it is nice to read it, and use it. But making patches will do more harm :)
16:32:35  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you ask this way for others to make the same mistake(s) again
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16:32:43  <TrueBrain> starting from scratch will give a much better platform :)
16:32:57  <planetmaker> and "will do more harm" is why a test environment is asked for
16:33:03  <Ammler> well, andythenorth did you study the bananas source?
16:33:08  <Yexo> TrueBrain: you keep saying that (same for WT), but what exactly is so wrong with the current platform?
16:33:19  <Yexo> and will someone else who starts from scratch not make exactly the same mistake?
16:33:31  <TrueBrain> Yexo: constraints changed
16:33:34  <TrueBrain> a lot even
16:33:47  <planetmaker> TrueBrain: OpenTTD was also not re-written when transition from c -> c++ happend. what's different here?
16:33:52  <TrueBrain> the whole database is poorly designed for what it has to be now
16:34:21  <TrueBrain> ugh .. guys: I don't care what you do. My advise is: start from scratch. If you don't want to follwo that advice, I don't care (really, I don't. There is a reason this is open source)
16:34:32  <TrueBrain> BaNaNaS is poorly designed
16:34:38  <TrueBrain> it should be start from scratch, with a good design document
16:34:41  <TrueBrain> with good goals
16:34:41  <planetmaker> you may know what and how things could work better. But others can learn probably a lot and see the limitations if they could test...
16:36:17  <andythenorth> Ammler: I have read some of the bananas source
16:36:35  <TrueBrain> let me just conclude with 3 things: 1) good luck setting up a dev-env (wish it was different, it isn't). 2) we are not going to make tons of minor database changes. 3) a from-scratch approach will be much easier for who-ever does this, as he is no longer bound by the constraints of the framework we created years ago
16:36:49  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what are the key performance issues?
16:36:57  <TrueBrain> performance issues: non
16:37:00  <TrueBrain> constraints: lots
16:37:09  <TrueBrain> check out
16:37:11  <TrueBrain> under Website
16:37:15  <TrueBrain> few good topics with what is wrong
16:37:26  <planetmaker> <-- I'm reminded of this article, TrueBrain ;-)
16:38:09  <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I am not a noob in software development. Trust me, if I say a from-scratch is better, it is. If you don't believe me ... feel free to find out :)
16:38:15  <TrueBrain> again, I don't care. I am just giving you guys suggestions :)
16:38:58  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how 'big' is bananas
16:39:00  <Alberth> Yexo: WT needs generalizing to arbitrary newgrfs imho.
16:39:03  <TrueBrain> it still makes me smile if I realise how abuse we are towards the used Python framework (django) :) So totally abused :p
16:39:08  <Yexo> there are currently 5 open bus in the BaNaNaS category. 1 of them seems to be a simple bug in the code (the tags one)
16:39:14  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: size in what way?
16:39:19  <Yexo> 3 of them are about dependencies
16:39:19  <andythenorth> complexity
16:39:29  <Yexo> TrueBrain: is that the part where the constraints changed?
16:39:30  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: few hunderd lines
16:39:32  <TrueBrain> nothing fancy
16:39:36  <andythenorth> number of complicated things depending on other complicated things?
16:39:46  <TrueBrain> Yexo: the system was designed for something different than how it is used, yes :)
16:39:52  <TrueBrain> I knew that after a month already :p
16:39:59  <Alberth> django is not the best framework for complex stuff it seems, judging from #python comments I read
16:40:06  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: the only 'big' thing is the link to ottd_content
16:40:06  <andythenorth> I have to learn pyramid
16:40:12  <TrueBrain> Alberth: it really isn't :)
16:40:17  <TrueBrain> if I could do it over, I would never use django :)
16:40:20  <TrueBrain> it works for small sites
16:40:26  <TrueBrain> for anything bigger ... omfg ...
16:40:34  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what would you use?
16:40:41  <TrueBrain> Pylons tbh ..
16:40:44  <TrueBrain> or even PHP :P
16:40:46  <andythenorth> ok
16:40:51  <Yexo> Alberth: wrt WT, I completely agree
16:40:57  <TrueBrain> the biggest mistake in my opinion was the fact I thought more people could contribute
16:41:01  <andythenorth> well I have to learn pyramid for 2 non-openttd projects
16:41:04  <TrueBrain> with Django, only a handful know what the fuck they are doing :p
16:41:17  <andythenorth> switching to pyramid is complete new system fallacy, but...whatever
16:41:21  <TrueBrain> if it would have been PHP, problems would be solved so much quicker
16:41:29  <Yexo> TrueBrain: you're not exactly making it easy for other people to contribute either
16:41:32  <TrueBrain> (then again, PHP is slow :p)
16:41:41  <andythenorth> I can't even figure out how to patch :P
16:41:44  <orudge> Plus, you can write pretty elegant PHP these days
16:41:48  <andythenorth> I'm used to having a buildout for the framework
16:41:49  <Yexo> some instructions on how to set up a local test environment would go a long way towards that
16:41:50  <orudge> well, I suppose you could in the past, but most people didn't ;)
16:41:54  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: good luck with trying to get it to run :D I am terrified doing that again ...
16:42:04  <andythenorth> I'm not going to bother
16:42:06  <TrueBrain> Yexo: that is exactly the point. Django is not made for that, and I have no fucking clue
16:42:21  <TrueBrain> orudge: haha, true there
16:42:27  <Yexo> ok, that definitely is a big problem than :)
16:42:45  <TrueBrain> Yexo: and we still use django ancient. I am terrified of upgrading
16:42:53  <TrueBrain> there is a reason I keep saying: rewrite over patching :p
16:43:00  <Yexo> now you're here: any updates on WT 3.1? Or is that also still in the planning stage
16:43:20  <TrueBrain> if study doesn't consume my time, OpenDUNE does. So no progress what-so-ever
16:43:34  <Zuu> I guess that's a problem with all frameworks, that they are hard to upgrade?
16:43:47  <TrueBrain> Zuu: they are. And the amount of hacks we used didn't make it easier :)
16:43:52  <Yexo> fair enough
16:43:52  <TrueBrain> we cheated so many times to get what we wanted :)
16:43:58  <andythenorth> pyramid has awesome documentation, unusual for a python project :P
16:43:58  <Zuu> :-)
16:43:59  <andythenorth>
16:44:19  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: take it from me, your first 5 projects will be terrible :D
16:44:29  <andythenorth> I know :P
16:44:45  <Zuu> So you'll get a basket full of bad fruit.
16:44:47  <andythenorth> that's why I wouldn't mind if one of those was bananas, not software that has paying clients
16:44:59  <TrueBrain> feel free :)
16:45:16  <TrueBrain> ottd_content requires some tables to be in a certain state, but that is changable
16:45:32  <TrueBrain> the rest is free, design-wise
16:48:01  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: and regarding BaNaNaS, if you ever want to get some feedback on ideas and designs, just PM me. I can assist you as far as my memory streches regarding current implementation :)
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16:49:22  <andythenorth> thanks
16:49:27  <andythenorth> I would need a collaborator
16:49:33  <andythenorth> my database design skills suck
16:49:50  <SpComb> just use XML
16:50:35  <andythenorth> oh
16:50:36  <TrueBrain>
16:50:38  <andythenorth> of course :P
16:50:39  <TrueBrain> names most of the things
16:51:15  <TrueBrain> not sure if it is in there, but I believe there was also a demand that you could add a 'depend on' grf which auto-updates to newer versions or something .. can't really remember, not always paying attention :)
16:52:43  <SpComb> great thing about Python web frameworks is there are so many to choose from
16:52:47  <SpComb> the annoying thing about ..
16:52:52  <TrueBrain> ^^
16:53:09  <andythenorth> that's why pylons and repoze.bfg were merged
16:53:14  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: also, I wrote BaNaNaS I believe in 1 or 2 days. To give another idea of 'big'
16:53:21  * SpComb preferrs werkzeug
16:53:23  <TrueBrain> Pylons merged with like 5 other projects :p
16:53:40  <SpComb> one step up from stdlib cgi
16:53:44  <andythenorth> I haven't used django
16:54:01  <andythenorth> grok is odd
16:54:04  <andythenorth> zope is overkill
16:54:07  <andythenorth> plone is a monster
16:54:44  <TrueBrain> RoR is worse :D
16:55:50  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: is the performance particularly an issue?
16:55:58  <andythenorth> seems bananas doesn't need to do many write?
16:56:05  <andythenorth> quite a lot of reads
16:56:09  <TrueBrain> speed-wise, there are no issues at all
16:56:10  <andythenorth> not many complex queries
16:56:13  <TrueBrain> everything is fast and speedy
16:56:35  * andythenorth ponders using zodb
16:56:36  <TrueBrain> the complexity of BaNaNaS is not in the frontend, it is in the uploading tbh :)
16:56:56  <andythenorth> bbl
16:57:01  <TrueBrain> things have to depend on eachother, more people want to contribute, blabla :)
16:57:19  <Zuu> Possible also in the variety of actions that it need to support for uploaders.
16:57:32  <Zuu> Eg. selection of old libraries as dependencies etc.
16:57:51  <TrueBrain> and give these dudes 10 minutes, and you have a long long long long list :D
16:58:04  <Zuu> :-)
16:58:12  <andythenorth> meh to that
16:58:23  <TrueBrain> AMQP can be nice for uploading :D
17:01:43  <TrueBrain> bit over the top I guess
17:02:11  <SpComb> we obviously need to write the web frontend in C
17:02:20  <TrueBrain> LOL!
17:02:57  <TrueBrain> always someone who can go over it :D
17:03:25  <SpComb> people have done it!
17:03:31  <SpComb> e.g. fossil
17:03:44  <TrueBrain> some people are insane :P
17:04:20  <SpComb> ..and the coursework we did this spring
17:04:37  <SpComb> #include "sqlite3.h"
17:07:02  <TrueBrain> I learnt last year that I really dislike the Python language :p
17:07:11  <TrueBrain> most noticable, the indentation
17:07:41  <SpComb> invalid criticism, not accepted
17:07:50  <TrueBrain> :D
17:07:59  <SpComb> python's indentation is very flexible
17:08:17  <SpComb> you can do very nice multi-line expressions
17:08:31  <TrueBrain> makes code si fucking hard to read :(
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17:15:26  <Ammler> rails would be a good framework, but there is no ruby coder
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17:16:07  <TrueBrain> they all died out of crazyness :p
17:16:12  <Ammler> :-)
17:17:01  *** Guest3313 is now known as Chris_Booth
17:18:47  <Rubidium> isn't ruby for Japanese?
17:19:05  <Ammler> hehe
17:21:35  <Ammler> well, anyway, if there is need for a stage server or whatever, just ping me :-)
17:21:45  <Thorn_> ruby coders don't last long, at some point they all go off the rails
17:21:54  <TrueBrain> nice one Thorn_ :D
17:22:09  <Thorn_> ;)
17:22:30  <Ammler> but rails would be so nice for openttd :-)
17:22:53  <orudge> I thought the aim was to rewrite it in something people know? ;)
17:23:12  <orudge> sounds like x86 assembler would be best
17:23:13  <Ammler> orudge: that might be php only
17:23:17  <TrueBrain> hmm ... a new design won't hurt either :D
17:23:19  <Thorn_> haskell
17:23:26  <orudge> Ammler: which might not be such a bad thing :)
17:23:32  * orudge is potentially going to play around this weekend with some ideas
17:23:40  <orudge> whether anything will come of them, I don't know, but we'll see
17:23:45  <TrueBrain> I wouldn't mind PHP at this stage :)
17:23:46  <orudge> depends on how much I end up drinking tomorrow I suppose :P
17:23:59  <Ammler> a merge of bananas and grfgrawler?
17:24:02  <orudge> no, no
17:24:09  <TrueBrain> at least would give some continuity
17:24:10  <orudge> just potentially rewriting the main web site framework in PHP
17:24:13  <orudge> although
17:24:23  <orudge> moving the web site to something sane would at least aid that idea ;)
17:25:05  <orudge> using something like Smarty would seem to be straightforward, well-known and a hell of a lot easier to administer than the current stuff :P
17:25:08  <Ammler> there are just so many php frameworks
17:25:12  <orudge> well, yes
17:25:17  <TrueBrain> orudge: nothing wrong with the templates tbh :)
17:25:22  <Ammler> you will for sure chose the wrong
17:25:26  <orudge> TrueBrain: the templates themselves, no
17:25:43  <orudge> Ammler: maybe, but generally, picking one of the more popular ones seems to make sense, no?
17:25:44  <TrueBrain> just PHP is so incredibly slow :(
17:25:54  <Rubidium> jsp!
17:25:57  <TrueBrain> CakePHP or Prado :p
17:26:12  * Zuu has coded some ruby, but not more than say 1000-2000 lines in total.
17:26:23  <TrueBrain> Zuu: keep it that way :D
17:26:37  <Zuu> It's nice, but python wins for its larger user base.
17:26:45  <TrueBrain> yup
17:26:47  <orudge> TrueBrain: hmm, well, that can be improved, to some degree, with the likes of eAccelerator, and a decent FastCGI web server
17:26:52  <orudge> but yes, I guess it can be
17:26:54  <orudge> anyway
17:26:57  <orudge> I should maybe get some dinner
17:26:58  <Zuu> And all the development team issues with Ruby.
17:27:05  <TrueBrain> what I like about RoR and django etc, is that they stay in memory, and have much shorter paths to travel
17:27:08  <TrueBrain> PHP keeps booting up :p
17:27:16  <orudge> I guess there's always mod_php ;)
17:27:23  <TrueBrain> works without caching (had to disable it :D)
17:27:28  <TrueBrain> and still we can handle a slashdot :p
17:27:31  <Rubidium> I'm not sure whether php really is an issue, but... it seems like most sites written in it use a global connection to the webserver
17:27:50  <Rubidium> ... which means all sites running there'll use the same connection :(
17:28:07  <Zuu> Also most programs that has an API for extension support Python - not ruby.
17:28:13  <orudge> Rubidium: well, if you're using FastCGI, then it depends on how you set it up, really.
17:28:20  <Ammler> Zuu: or REST
17:28:30  <orudge> if you're using mod_php, then everything runs under the Apache process (I don't think there's a mod_php for any other web servers these days, except maybe IIS)
17:28:37  <Zuu> Ammler: REST?
17:28:42  <orudge> unless I'm confusing what you mean
17:28:48  <Rubidium> orudge: might very well be, but I'm not that into webserver configuration
17:28:58  <TrueBrain> orudge: ugh, lets not use apache :D
17:29:06  <orudge> TrueBrain: I'd really rather not :P
17:29:21  <orudge> I'm a lighttpd fan, but then I tend to use it in fairly simple configurations
17:29:28  <orudge> so I've never really encountered all these leaks and bugs you seem to have
17:29:48  <TrueBrain> bigger sites more problems :)
17:29:51  <TrueBrain> nginx works very well
17:30:00  <TrueBrain> but ... we max out what we can deliver for mediawiki atm
17:30:20  <Rubidium> yeah, that beast is obnoxious
17:30:21  <TrueBrain> I have some ideas for it thou ..
17:30:25  <Ammler> Zuu: or is that just api for rails?
17:30:30  <TrueBrain> but that requires ... 'other things' to happen first :p
17:30:39  <TrueBrain> REST is a design principle
17:30:57  <TrueBrain> build on HTTP/1.1 protocol
17:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause> why don't these things ever have google-able names
17:31:39  <Rubidium> anyhow, for whoever who wants to change bananas... please keep the columns of the tables that the content server uses the same ;)
17:31:45  <Ammler> orudge: isn't lightly also going to die?
17:31:52  <TrueBrain>
17:32:08  <orudge> Amis: is it?
17:32:13  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, that also might use some refactoring ;) :D
17:32:22  <SpComb> lighty died a while ago
17:32:23  <Amis> orudge, misstab?
17:32:37  <orudge> Amis: quite
17:32:41  <orudge> Ammler: is it?
17:32:42  <orudge> :p
17:32:45  <Amis> >.<
17:32:46  <Ammler> orudge: last release somewhen last year :-)
17:32:48  <TrueBrain> News
17:32:50  <TrueBrain> 1.4.28
17:32:51  <TrueBrain> August 22nd, 2010
17:32:53  <TrueBrain> nuff said
17:33:00  <Eddi|zuHause> mis-stabs are evil :p
17:33:00  <SpComb> and no bugfixes/features for ages during that year either
17:33:07  <SpComb> it's dead
17:33:25  <TrueBrain> <- good alternative for the more complex work
17:33:33  <TrueBrain> for simple work, nginx rules
17:33:39  <Ammler> people go back to apache or switch to nginx
17:33:39  <TrueBrain> almost no memory, very fast, very consistent
17:34:44  <SpComb> missing CGI annoyed me a little with nginx
17:34:56  <andythenorth> Ammler: can we afford the memory ruby needs?  Seems to need as much as plone
17:34:58  <Ammler> SpComb uwsgi for pyhton
17:35:17  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: I think the contentserver side is quite fine; I don't see what major refactoring would be needed in it
17:35:17  <Ammler> andythenorth: devzone needs around 700MB
17:35:18  <andythenorth> many projects have ditched RoR
17:35:30  <Ammler> but that is with all the vcs too
17:35:45  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: something about stats? :)
17:35:59  <andythenorth> hmm
17:36:18  <TrueBrain> yeah, sadly RoR is slowly fading
17:36:20  <andythenorth> anyway, if *someone* wants to collaborate with me *and* use python...I'll have a go
17:36:36  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: you don't like PHP? :D
17:36:49  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: hmm, true... though that might be better done in a script running e.g. daily
17:37:00  <Ammler> andythenorth: you can have a fresh vps with the distro of your choice
17:37:02  <andythenorth> complex answer: no I don't like php, but my opinion is not valid
17:37:06  <andythenorth> short answer: no
17:37:08  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: yeah, but remember the document we wrote ... a year ago, about new way of colelcting stats? :)
17:37:16  <TrueBrain> required some refactoring in some tables ottd_ uses :)
17:37:53  <Rubidium> yep
17:37:59  * andythenorth would sack the tags personally
17:38:10  <andythenorth> and just rely on authors writing good descriptions, then text search those
17:38:16  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: in all honesty, but that is just me speaking, I am very unsure about Python for OpenTTD. We have this website now for .. 5 years? Not a single person outside me or Rubidium has ever written a patch for it as far as I know. Then people can complain about the lack of availability etc, but you are the first (!) person to ask how to set it up himself
17:38:41  <andythenorth> if anyone wanted to switch to PHP, there would be much more support
17:38:46  <andythenorth> but I wouldn't work on it
17:38:51  <TrueBrain> the tags are, in my opinion again, a missed try. We wanted to get them to use, but as far as I can see, they aren't really used :) It was nice if it would have worked, but it doesn't seem to work :)
17:38:54  <Rubidium> though I rather keep the content server as trivial as possible and do the difficult "splitting" bit in an external script
17:39:04  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I agree :)
17:39:21  <andythenorth> bananas should be switched to wordpress
17:39:26  <andythenorth> that would do it
17:39:33  <Rubidium> like there's a script that parses the httpd-logs into a the binary statistics
17:39:49  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: not a bad idea, to make ottd_content write a log file of access
17:39:52  <TrueBrain> and parse that
17:39:55  <TrueBrain> instead of writing to mysql
17:40:13  <TrueBrain> might also be nice for masterserver
17:40:20  <TrueBrain> to get some idea about MP usage etc
17:40:25  <Rubidium> true, though then the "download" stats per newgrf aren't live anymore
17:40:25  <Zuu> Hmm, maybe it would help to get more support if no framework is used?
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17:40:43  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: updater is better suited for statistics gathering
17:40:44  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: true; but do we really want that?
17:41:03  <TrueBrain> the UPDATE downloads+=1 is pretty expensive
17:41:44  <TrueBrain> and of course the content service is _much_ more used then initial estimated :)
17:43:26  <TrueBrain> regarding frontpage, I leave it to the other developer to pick that direction. Go back to PHP, or keep rowing in Python :)
17:43:27  <Zuu> Sounds like classical traffic theory. When access is easier, more people will use it.
17:43:50  <TrueBrain> Zuu: and the more dangerous it becomes that it gets out of control :D But yes :)
17:44:24  <TrueBrain> on a month I still get a lot of emails from people asking for help regarding OpenTTD or the CF. Nobody ever mailed me how to setup the website :p Says a lot about how unknown many people are with django I guess :)
17:45:09  <peter1138> why would anyone else want to set up the website?
17:45:23  <TrueBrain> for development, for one
17:45:25  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: translators * r22533 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt czech.txt):
17:45:25  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:25  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
17:45:25  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by rala
17:45:32  <TrueBrain> and in the past we had people setting up the server-page only on their own master server
17:45:32  <peter1138> yeah but nobody does that
17:45:35  <TrueBrain> in LAN parties and stuff
17:45:37  <peter1138> it's always someone...
17:45:37  <TrueBrain> was really funny :p
17:45:55  <peter1138> funny ?
17:46:00  <TrueBrain> that people do that? Yes!
17:46:05  <TrueBrain> OpenTTD on LAN parties? That is just epic
17:46:39  *** Adambean` [] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
17:47:45  <__ln__> When there's OpenTTD, what else could people possibly need on a LAN party.
17:48:07  <Thorn_> I can only imagine bearded stoners sitting for hours on end passing the joint and competing over bus routes
17:48:18  <andythenorth> no framework == make your own accounts, your own acls, your own template language
17:48:29  <andythenorth> your own dispatcher, error framework
17:48:44  <andythenorth> request handler, database connectors
17:49:00  <Eddi|zuHause> what does "stoner" have to do with either "lan party" or "openttd"?
17:49:02  * Rubidium knows only one nutter who ran a masterserver on his own server and had a reasonable amount of servers registered to it
17:49:43  <Eddi|zuHause> does his name start with an l?
17:49:45  <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you? :p
17:49:54  <Terkhen> heh, there were alternative master servers?
17:50:00  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: yeah, you need some kind of framework. That I also miss in PHP: an ORM
17:50:10  <TrueBrain> I loved that about django (and also about Pylons, SQLAlchemy etc)
17:50:16  <Thorn_> Eddi|zuHause: It comes by definition of openttd at a lan party.
17:50:25  <Rubidium> TrueBrain: wins the Amazon cookie!
17:50:36  <TrueBrain> you also cheated :D
17:51:18  <TrueBrain> still more servers than clients
17:51:21  <TrueBrain> guess some things never change
17:51:42  <TrueBrain> no more 0.4.8 servers :p
17:51:44  <TrueBrain> although a 0.6.3 server
17:51:49  <TrueBrain> euh, 0.6.2
17:51:56  <Eddi|zuHause> that's probably not going to change. the real question is: did the number of clients increase?
17:51:56  <Rubidium> oldstable!
17:52:09  <TrueBrain> we don't have those statistics, sadly enough
17:52:13  <TrueBrain> that is why I love the logging :)
17:52:34  <Zuu> Perhaps someone shall make the code changes so that you can run a client that seeks up servers, joins and run a random/selected AI.
17:52:41  <Zuu> Then, we could get up the client count :-)
17:52:55  <TrueBrain> Zuu: you mean those 5 lines of code? :p
17:52:56  <Zuu> At least until the server-people do the same thing.
17:52:59  <planetmaker> [19:40]	Rubidium	true, though then the "download" stats per newgrf aren't live anymore <-- via some cronjob they could be somewhat live. Like daily, 6hour-ly or so. That's enough
17:53:44  <Zuu> TrueBrain: Would also need some lines of code to automate it so you never need to pick servers yourself and just leave it on for days :-)
17:53:49  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought the masterserver-updater already runs as cronjob and that was the entire point to move it there
17:54:08  * andythenorth reads bananas source to try and grok it
17:54:17  <TrueBrain> the only cronjob it runs is a cleanup of the database :p
17:54:20  <TrueBrain> to remove old servers
17:54:24  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: they're two dedicated daemons
17:54:25  <TrueBrain> (if that script still runs :D)
17:54:26  <andythenorth> hmm
17:54:35  <andythenorth> so the website and bananas are the same app?
17:54:36  <TrueBrain> grok?
17:54:41  <TrueBrain> both django, yes
17:54:44  <TrueBrain> 1 project, multiple apps
17:54:47  <andythenorth>
17:55:06  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: so I only need to read what's in /bananas
17:55:07  <andythenorth> ?
17:55:11  <TrueBrain> yes
17:55:14  <andythenorth> oh
17:55:18  <andythenorth> that's way simpler :P
17:55:20  <TrueBrain> although it heavily depends on django and the hacks we made for it in / :D
17:55:32  <TrueBrain> yeah, bananas is not that big
17:55:40  <Eddi|zuHause> speaking of cronjobs: is there a way to tell my crontab to treat a specific line as utc when my system is actually in ce(s)t?
17:56:23  <andythenorth> is bananas one monolithic thing? I.e. does it handle admin interface + API for openttd?
17:56:32  <Rubidium> and... if possible, does the reverse work as well?
17:56:48  <Rubidium> andythenorth: API for OpenTTD is a separate daemon
17:57:18  <Rubidium> to be found in ^/extra/masterserver_updater
17:57:29  <andythenorth> Rubidium: so it reads the mysql tables?
17:57:38  <Rubidium> yes
17:57:48  <andythenorth> is there any other caching etc?  or I should read the code?
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17:58:48  <Rubidium> andythenorth: it has no caching whatsoever
17:58:55  <Rubidium> (the daemon that is)
17:59:47  <Rubidium> there is some caching-ish related code, though that's related to the binaries on the webserver as those are only mirrored out occasionally
18:00:10  <Rubidium> (after each binary build that ends up on
18:00:53  <TrueBrain> we wrote too complex systems :D
18:03:25  <Eddi|zuHause> bah... i got this thor thingy (syfy production, not the movie), but it's totally stupid
18:07:53  <andythenorth> why?
18:08:25  <Eddi|zuHause> if A-Movies are high budget ones, B-Movies are low budget ones, C-Movies are zero-budget knockoffs and D-Movies are pornos, then this is an E-Movie.
18:09:18  <andythenorth> hmm
18:09:18  <SpComb> they pay you to watch it?
18:11:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i should sue them for compensation ;)
18:11:17  <Eddi|zuHause> lost time and bandwidth :p
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18:39:54  <ZirconiumX> hello all
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18:43:17  <Amis> Hmmm
18:43:29  <Amis> Is it possible that sometimes prospecting indusrty fails?
18:44:23  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that is intended
18:45:17  <Amis> :/
18:45:27  <Amis> Yaay for throwing out 4 million euros x.x
18:45:42  <Eddi|zuHause> not every time you tell people "go find oil" they actually find any
18:46:12  <Ammler> but the chance to find is quite high in openttd
18:47:04  <Amis> Not if you are playing with islands
18:51:55  <Ammler> well, you can change the setting and fund those
18:52:38  <Alberth> oilrigs should work quite well with islands :)
18:52:54  <Ammler> :-)
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19:14:43  <planetmaker> Rubidium: the master server doesn't know these 12 NewGRFs:
19:15:27  <planetmaker> provided my grep, cut and sed orgy didn't fail anywhere
19:15:43  <Rubidium> uk waypoints exists
19:16:16  <Rubidium> ffffffff seems like a bogus grf of some sorts
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19:16:40  <planetmaker> by name yes. The grfID there is bogus. Only 7 characters. That's why
19:16:56  <planetmaker> cutting that out and the FFFFFFFF leaves 9
19:17:24  <Rubidium> no, the uk waypoints one is 8 long and matches perfectly
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19:17:49  <Rubidium> the grfid is the one above the name, not below it
19:18:38  <Rubidium> how many entries are in grfcrawler?
19:18:44  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: yexo * r22534 /trunk/src/ai/ (ai_config.cpp ai_config.hpp ai_core.cpp): -Fix [FS#4631] (r21250): doing rescan_ai in a game with running AIs caused a crash
19:19:18  <planetmaker> right. I copied the wrong lines when grepping for the 7-thing entry. There are 248 entries which have a somewhat reasonable grfID
19:19:42  <Rubidium> somewhat reasonable?
19:19:58  <planetmaker> two which are not that format, DW xy, which is one of the DWE things, OG+4 is one of mine and 34 is no grfID
19:20:02  <Rubidium> you mean the rest is non-hexian garbage
19:20:05  <planetmaker> and empty is no grfID either
19:20:06  <planetmaker> yes
19:20:38  <Rubidium> @calc 10/248
19:20:38  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0403225806452
19:20:45  <Rubidium> @calc 10/248*100
19:20:45  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 4.03225806452
19:21:11  <planetmaker> the total number of entries is slightly above 300, including those w/o grfID. Which are quite a few
19:21:16  <Rubidium> so 4% chance of a NewGRF from grfcrawler not being known by the server
19:21:40  <planetmaker> somewhat, yes
19:21:49  <planetmaker> which is as good as 100% :-P
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19:22:51  <Rubidium> @calc 10/800
19:22:51  <DorpsGek> Rubidium: 0.0125
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19:23:22  <Rubidium> and a 1.25% chance of a NewGRF not being known in general
19:23:30  <Rubidium> by the server
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19:25:12  <Rubidium> although...
19:25:21  <Rubidium> you might want to consider the first 4 nibbles
19:25:45  <planetmaker> as authorID?
19:25:49  <Rubidium> yep
19:25:58  <Rubidium> 293 unique ones in the master server's list
19:26:21  <Rubidium> so with those added ~300
19:26:47  <Rubidium> which means 0.5% of the available author ids has been used
19:26:56  <planetmaker> :-)
19:27:40  <planetmaker> He, indeed even I used mine once
19:28:30  <planetmaker> but for most... OG+ ;-)
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19:28:38  <planetmaker> which hardly is an author
19:28:48  <planetmaker> *single
19:32:47  <frosch123> wow, the logs of this channel have not been so interesting for long :)
19:33:01  <frosch123> what's the "DBSextXL Extension"? :p
19:33:30  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue...
19:36:52  <frosch123> it's also amazing how many grfs are on the list, which were already deprecated before ottd existed :o
19:37:26  <Rubidium> I guess they're on the frontpage of ttdpatch or something ;)
19:40:05  <planetmaker> :-D
19:41:18  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the one that says "TTDPatch 2.0 rev 1 Released"? :p
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19:42:19  <frosch123> Rubidium: even the ttdp front page has only dbset 0.5
19:42:50  <Yexo> 0.5? not even 0.8?
19:43:03  <Eddi|zuHause> it has both
19:43:09  <Eddi|zuHause> 0.5 and 0.82
19:43:29  <frosch123> the list contains a dbset 0.3 and even a dbset without version number
19:43:30  <Eddi|zuHause> because 0.82 is not 2.0 compatible, only 2.5-beta
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19:46:37  <Rubidium> see... that's the reason dbsetxl isn't on bananas...
19:47:09  <Rubidium> the "standards" platform doesn't have a stable release yet
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20:01:14  <andythenorth> hmm
20:01:35  * andythenorth wonders about spec for bananas v2
20:02:30  <Terkhen> IIRC LordAro was working on readme display ingame, I guess you should make sure that the readme files follow some common rules
20:02:48  <Eddi|zuHause> am i the only one who thinks "andy's spec" is an oxymoron? :p
20:03:00  <andythenorth> eh?
20:03:03  <Alberth> Terkhen:   /is/ working on it, afaik :)
20:03:18  <Terkhen> cool :)
20:04:49  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i meant if you take the FIRS cargo spec as example :p
20:04:58  <andythenorth> ah
20:05:13  <andythenorth> in that case we apply 'the code *is* the spec' :D
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20:08:09  <frosch123> <- i like the "i cannot use the bug tracker ..." - "please use the bug tracker"
20:10:23  <planetmaker> :-D Yes, I'm guilty
20:10:55  <Eddi|zuHause> i found that odd as well :p
20:11:10  <andythenorth> hmm
20:11:15  <andythenorth> bananas is not much code
20:11:46  <Eddi|zuHause> that's what he said
20:11:48  <Eddi|zuHause> err...
20:11:50  <andythenorth> but presumably depends on account function for ottd website
20:12:39  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: how is authentication handled for openttd?  Is it per-domain?
20:15:17  <Rubidium> there's a ldap server
20:16:28  <andythenorth> a better question might be: would a rewrite of bananas have to also handle authentication?  Or is that handed elsewhere?
20:16:52  <frosch123> the authentication is the same as for webtranslator
20:17:07  <frosch123> you only need to login once, don't you?
20:17:29  <TWerkhoven> ello
20:18:04  * andythenorth is trying to figure out how accounts would be shared or use groups, as requested on FS
20:18:49  <Eddi|zuHause> you have a many-to-many relation between grf-id and author-accounts
20:19:23  <andythenorth> probably
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20:21:47  <andythenorth> but it gets complicated
20:22:15  <andythenorth> if there are two user roles then permissions have to be checked in more depth
20:22:20  <andythenorth>
20:24:26  <Rubidium> do we want two user roles?
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20:30:28  <andythenorth> I would hope not
20:30:39  <andythenorth> I am reading the feature requests :P
20:30:45  <andythenorth> user roles slows everything down
20:30:53  <andythenorth> development-wise
20:31:13  <andythenorth> means fine-grained acls are needed
20:31:48  <Eddi|zuHause> "Austria better team, Germany wins 2:1, Germans shoot all goals" ... something is wrong :p
20:32:57  <andythenorth> feature requests for bananas?
20:40:09  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently, a bananas-grfcrawler-hybrid is needed
20:40:28  <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. categories, searchable website, ...
20:40:52  <andythenorth> I think exactly that
20:40:53  <Terkhen> yup
20:40:57  <V453000> good point
20:41:30  <andythenorth> grf categories mostly map to types in nfo spec?
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20:41:40  <CIA-11> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22535 /trunk/src/table/sprites.h: -Cleanup: Remove uneeded constants, update and unify some comments relating to sprite numbers
20:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, roughly
20:41:55  <Terkhen> I think so: landscape, industries, trains, road vehicles, rail types
20:42:03  <andythenorth> ships
20:42:09  <planetmaker> aircraft
20:42:11  <Terkhen> also the current ones; heightmaps, scenarios, AIs, AI libraries
20:42:12  <planetmaker> base costs
20:42:25  <planetmaker> misc ;-)
20:42:32  <planetmaker> base sets
20:42:43  <andythenorth> in the FS there is discussion about dependencies
20:42:44  <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles (road, rail, plane, ship), infrastructure (road, rail, stations, airports), landscape (terrain, objects)
20:42:55  <andythenorth> dependencies scare me
20:43:02  <frosch123> and "monolithical" for stuff containing more than one thing
20:43:07  <Eddi|zuHause> AIs already have dependencies
20:43:18  <andythenorth> frosch123: I should split HEQS?? :P
20:43:43  <TWerkhoven> nah, just have grf's listed in any category that applies
20:43:43  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i only ever used the trams of HEQS
20:43:53  <TWerkhoven> so if a grf has rv's and trains, list them in both
20:44:03  <frosch123> andythenorth: i found an option to disable some weird trains
20:44:09  <frosch123> :p
20:44:15  <andythenorth> ho
20:44:25  <Terkhen> I use the HEQS trams a lot :P
20:44:34  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: oh, and the Gmund Mog (both versions) :)
20:44:47  <andythenorth> dependencies...
20:44:50  <Terkhen> I have never used the rail Gmund Mog though
20:45:38  <andythenorth> dependencies scare me :P
20:45:47  <andythenorth> how does / would openttd work with them?
20:45:58  <andythenorth> does it fetch all deps?
20:46:35  <Rubidium> yep
20:47:24  <andythenorth> is that already handled?
20:47:30  <Terkhen> yes
20:47:35  <andythenorth> ok
20:48:19  <andythenorth> is it handled for AI only, or in general?
20:50:41  <Yexo> in general
20:50:44  <Terkhen> I have seen dependencies only in AIs, but I guess they are handled in general
20:50:53  <andythenorth> does that extend to newgrf window?
20:50:54  <Yexo> scenario's can have dependencies on grfs
20:50:59  <andythenorth> i.e. if foo.grf depends on bar.grf
20:51:02  <Yexo> no, just the online content window
20:51:05  <andythenorth> ok
20:51:17  <andythenorth> and there's no way for user to know about deps in game?
20:51:25  <Yexo> no
20:51:27  <andythenorth> apart from they get downloaded by content service
20:51:39  <Yexo> that is not something the content service should handle
20:51:52  <frosch123> there is some av8 extension set that pulls av8
20:51:53  <Yexo> for scenarios the user can see the grfs that are needed in the load dialog
20:52:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the grf can still use action B to tell the user
20:52:07  <Yexo> NewGRFs can disable themself if their dependency is not loaded
20:52:11  <andythenorth> so it's responsibility of newgrf?  - fine by me
20:52:28  <Yexo> AIs will most likely just fail to compile/start if an AI library they need is not available
20:52:57  <Yexo> andythenorth: at runtime yes, but the content server needs to make sure that the dependencies are downloaded
20:53:08  <andythenorth> ok
20:57:42  * andythenorth wonders what's actually wrong with bananas code
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21:00:59  <josepr83> %ithe content server needs to make sure that the dependencies are downloaded%i
21:01:12  <josepr83> is that hard to implement?
21:01:55  <planetmaker> it is implemented...
21:04:01  <josepr83> okay. So, when you download the grf/scens etc. via content download system, their deps will actually get downloaded, or just prompt the user?
21:04:18  <Yexo> try to select the av8 addon in the online content window
21:04:24  <Yexo> av8 will also get selected automatically
21:04:30  <Terkhen> josepr83: it is implemented, try it with some AI that uses libraries or that av8 addon :P
21:04:33  <Yexo> same happens if you select any AI that uses libraries
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21:05:32  <Eddi|zuHause> something that is bad with ingame bananas handling: after updating a grf, i have to manually edit all presets, because those are set by filename, which is different, since it contains the version
21:06:40  *** Guest3328 [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:06:41  <josepr83> So, preset handling should be done by the grf name string inside the file, rather than filename?
21:07:38  <Eddi|zuHause> or after download finished, presets should automatically be updated
21:08:46  <josepr83> Or there should be an update presets option, so that the user can decide when to update.
21:08:55  * andythenorth wonders if rewriting bananas from scratch is tmwftlb
21:09:13  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: what's so bad about the existing codebase?
21:09:21  <andythenorth> when I read it, I see nothing horrible
21:10:13  <TrueBrain> setting up the site won't be .. easy :) (so development is hard) This is the general problem with OpenTTD website atm
21:10:25  <TrueBrain> for the rest, the database design assumed an approach which is invalid
21:10:32  <TrueBrain> so it needs redesign, or at least a huge tuning
21:10:40  <andythenorth> ok
21:10:49  <andythenorth> so the issue isn't the views?
21:10:50  <TrueBrain> the code that handles file uploading fails a lot
21:11:05  <andythenorth> it has a *lot* of if-else :P
21:11:10  <TrueBrain> yes
21:11:12  <TrueBrain> completely unreadable
21:11:17  <TrueBrain> needs refactoring
21:12:15  <andythenorth> is it just un-pretty?  Or actually flakey?
21:12:22  <TrueBrain> it makes mistakes
21:12:25  <TrueBrain> untracable mistakes :p
21:14:43  * andythenorth doesn't know what would be best
21:14:53  <andythenorth> - leave bananas alone - tmwftlb
21:15:05  <andythenorth> - rebuild 1:1 in new framework (not django)
21:15:15  <andythenorth> - rebuild 1:1 in django, but cleaner
21:15:27  <andythenorth> - rebuild entirely with redesigned features etc
21:15:32  <andythenorth> the last option is worst :P
21:18:45  <TrueBrain> I think second is best for OpenTTD as a whole
21:19:07  <andythenorth> so initially keep identical feature set, GUI etc
21:19:12  <andythenorth> but reimplement
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21:19:43  * andythenorth wonders if wordpress really would be best way to do it
21:19:50  <TrueBrain> NO
21:19:56  <andythenorth> why?
21:20:08  <andythenorth> I am no wordpress fan, but it has achieved WIN
21:20:14  *** josepr83 [~xenon128@] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
21:20:17  <TrueBrain> its asking for tons of exploits
21:20:46  <andythenorth> apparently WP 3 has solved that
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21:21:07  * andythenorth dislikes WP for numerous minor reasons
21:21:16  <TrueBrain> they have 'solved' all exploits?
21:21:18  <TrueBrain> lol :)
21:21:29  <andythenorth> it has a massive developer base
21:21:33  <andythenorth> working on it all the time
21:21:37  <andythenorth> to add new exploits :P
21:21:42  <TrueBrain> and you also need to update so frequently :p
21:21:46  <TrueBrain> so no, I personally don't like that :)
21:22:04  <andythenorth> hmm
21:22:30  <andythenorth> there is no other common framework apart from Drupal
21:22:34  <andythenorth> how about Drupal?
21:22:48  <andythenorth> common = many people who can hack at it
21:23:26  <andythenorth> it would mean finding someone who can code drupal :P
21:24:36  <frosch123> "django" is still the nicest name of the stuff you mentioned
21:25:02  * andythenorth wants to do it with pyramid
21:25:04  <andythenorth> but not alone
21:26:09  <andythenorth>
21:27:24  <josepr83> It’s small, documented, tested, extensible, fast, and friendly.
21:27:35  <josepr83> That means a LOT
21:28:00  <Eddi|zuHause> do we play buzzword-bingo?
21:28:07  <andythenorth> we could
21:28:13  <andythenorth> if you have a bingo car
21:28:14  <andythenorth> d
21:28:29  <planetmaker> with buzzwords? always at hand
21:28:42  <planetmaker> much more fun in meetings though in the form of bullshit bingo
21:29:09  <Eddi|zuHause> i had one for election-day-bingo once
21:29:31  <planetmaker> I spent some lectures with creating such bingo cards :-P
21:30:08  <andythenorth> TrueBrain: would you recommend changing the mysql schema as well?
21:30:14  <andythenorth> or could that be left untouched?
21:30:22  <TrueBrain> I think you have to
21:30:26  <TrueBrain> to work with a few new requirements
21:30:50  <andythenorth> I would ignore new requirements initially
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21:31:44  <Eddi|zuHause> key requirement for a replacement framework: easy setup of a testing system
21:32:07  <andythenorth> testing what?
21:32:16  <andythenorth> testing the framework?  or a dev environment?
21:32:33  <josepr83> Use the framework to test the framework?
21:32:39  <Yexo> <andythenorth> I would ignore new requirements initially <- that means you're going to write a new system that fails for exactly the same reasons the current system fails
21:32:50  <Yexo> it would not be designed for everything is has to handle
21:33:11  <andythenorth> Yexo: same argument could be said about FIRS port to nml :P
21:33:42  <andythenorth> changing framework + features is a headache
21:33:52  <josepr83> andythenorth: planetmaker is still here :P
21:34:07  <andythenorth> ?
21:34:07  <Eddi|zuHause> dev environment is where you write your code, test environment is where you run it
21:34:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so a staging server?
21:34:30  <Eddi|zuHause> whatever you call it
21:34:37  <Yexo> andythenorth: the firs port from nfo to nml was not because nml supports something nfo does not
21:34:45  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I think we mean same thing
21:34:45  <Yexo> it's to make maintenance in the future easier
21:34:56  <andythenorth> hmm
21:35:01  <andythenorth> this is why I am confused
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21:35:07  <andythenorth> what is the problem with bananas?
21:35:07  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something where i can type "make" and then i have the page on localhost:80
21:35:10  <Yexo> making the maintenance of bananas easier is not very useful as long as it doesn't support everything it has to
21:35:42  <andythenorth> hmm
21:35:49  <andythenorth> in that case we're stuck yes / no?
21:35:59  <Yexo> andythenorth: it needs a more extensive web interface (something more like grfcrawler has), it needs a better way to specify dependencies
21:36:13  <Yexo> you need to be able to select a dependency on an older version
21:36:22  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: told you the list would grow fast :D
21:36:26  <andythenorth> sounds like a spec is needed :)
21:36:31  <andythenorth> I see the issue here
21:36:47  <andythenorth> can't extend current codebase because it's hairy
21:36:54  <planetmaker> it needs proper user management as well
21:36:58  <planetmaker> or rather rights
21:37:02  <andythenorth> can't move to a new codebase
21:37:15  <planetmaker> one to multi linking of project to user and vice versa
21:37:34  <Yexo> andythenorth: it can be moved to a new codebase, but that should only be done if the new codebase has advantages over the current one
21:37:45  <TrueBrain> andythenorth: so you have to start somewhere; a rewrite of current stuff might be an approach :)
21:38:17  <Yexo> moving from the current implementation to one based on pyramid is useless if that pyramid implementation has the same limitations as the current one
21:38:28  <andythenorth> why?
21:38:38  <andythenorth> it seems to be an unavoidable step in a migration
21:38:44  <Yexo> because every move has the potential to introduce more bugs
21:38:58  <andythenorth> which is why features shouldn't change
21:39:04  <Yexo> it could be a first step to code that, but only if afterwards that codebase is extended to implement some new features
21:39:12  <andythenorth> QA on something that is 1:1 same is just hard
21:39:17  <Yexo> only when that's done it would be useful to switch the live version imo
21:39:33  <andythenorth> QA on something that also adds features is insanely hard
21:39:39  <Terkhen> good night
21:39:46  <andythenorth> bye Terkhen
21:39:58  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you wouldn't get to just call make
21:40:07  <andythenorth> but maybe three lines
21:40:44  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i meant apart from installing the dependencies
21:41:06  <andythenorth> you shouldn't have to do much of that hopefully :P
21:41:26  <andythenorth> although I don't know if mysql is easy to provide
21:43:35  <andythenorth> starting the server would be something like: ./bin/paster serve etc/paste.ini
21:44:41  * andythenorth will sleep on it and see what happens
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22:00:42  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:06:09  <__ln__> does someone remember seeing this Deutsche Bahn commercial on tv:
22:08:10  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember all commercial spots of the last 20 years
22:08:37  <Eddi|zuHause> the pictures do ring some bells, but i'm not really sure
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22:09:53  <__ln__> it was in finnish, subtitled in german... which might be a bit exceptional on german tv, i suppose.
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22:12:35  <__ln__> anyway, i've been trying to locate that ad on youtube and other sources, but unsuccessfully
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22:19:25  <Eddi|zuHause> do you have a timeframe?
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22:25:39  <__ln__> something like 1992..1995
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22:28:35  <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: is that it? i can't seem to open it, though.
22:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> description:
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22:30:35  <__ln__> yeah, that's it, but the .ram merely points to some other pnm:// url and address, which has probably been down for years.
22:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> <- ?
22:32:09  <Eddi|zuHause> just a matter of the right search words ;)
22:32:14  <__ln__> perfect, that's the one, thank you
22:33:08  <__ln__> i apparently failed with my search words
22:35:29  <Eddi|zuHause> doesn't seem to be the complete clip, though
22:37:45  <__ln__> yes, it starts in the middle of a sentence, and as far as i remember there was a second part where the guy says "i just remembered that .... blabla" and adds something
22:44:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i can't find another version, though
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