Log for #openttd on 19th June 2011:
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00:01:00  <Eddi|zuHause> well, the other fix would be changing the grf-id of dutch catenary :p
00:02:42  <planetmaker> hm... I should sleep while pondering this problem. Good night :-)
00:03:33  <Ammler> better static grf support would rock in any case
00:04:23  <Ammler> static grfs are forgotten since the newgrf gui
00:05:27  <Ammler> it would also be coold for grfs which depend on basesets, like swedish rails
00:05:59  <Ammler> well, you would need to split the grf but might be worth
00:07:13  <Ammler> good night
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05:59:20  <JVassie> mornin
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06:05:27  <andythenorth> bonjorno
06:25:52  <planetmaker> moin
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07:21:04  <Terkhen> good morning
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07:26:43  <planetmaker> hallo Terkhen
07:37:06  <andythenorth> hi Terkhen
07:45:17  <George> Hi. ECS users ask me about FS#4366 - what are possibilities for it to be solved?
07:47:09  <andythenorth> something like that was discussed before
07:47:13  <andythenorth> but no patch
07:47:39  <planetmaker> it would need a gui similar to NewObjects
07:47:49  <planetmaker> or at least that's an option
07:48:09  <planetmaker> but... IMHO then we need preview sprites for all default industries as well
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07:55:36  <planetmaker> but maybe there are other options. I don't know
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08:01:38  * Alberth would like preview sprites for industries, it'd make the 'fund industry' so much better
08:01:40  <George> I do not mean that solution should be done like I wrote. I mean we need some solution for a handy build of objects, whou have landscape restrictins. Flat land is a restriction too. Currently we have some bad industry placement on mountains maps
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08:33:40  <andythenorth> George: frosch or eddi proposed a cb for terraforming
08:33:55  <andythenorth> it would need to return relative heights and slopes for each tile for each layout
08:34:16  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember doing anything like this
08:34:26  <andythenorth> must have been someone else then :)
08:34:40  <George> Relative? Absolute would be much easier
08:35:03  <andythenorth> ??
08:35:09  <andythenorth> I think we must confuse terms :)
08:35:17  <George> or relative means not relative to current landscape, but relative to flat land?
08:35:19  <andythenorth> you don't intend to specify 'only build this tile at height 1'
08:35:44  <andythenorth> relative to N tile of industry would be most obvious I guess
08:35:55  <George> no, I mean do I need a huge callback to analise current landscape or not
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08:36:19  <andythenorth> no
08:36:34  <andythenorth> you just tell the heights / slopes you need for each tile
08:36:38  <andythenorth> game tries to provide those
08:36:42  <George> then relative is fine (relative to flat land)
08:36:52  <andythenorth> if it can't create layout, then building fails
08:36:58  <George> ok
08:37:05  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i have a suggestion for "simplified" firs economy: remove aluminium, textiles, milk, scrap metal and building materials [replace with goods], make each farm only produce one cargo [grain, sugar, livestock]
08:37:20  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: put it in the thread or ticket?
08:37:23  <George> It should allow both + and - according to flat land
08:37:25  <andythenorth> sounds fine - I'm about to go out though
08:38:12  <George> andythenorth: And when he plans to provide such CB?
08:38:23  <andythenorth> I don't know that he does :P
08:38:28  <andythenorth> it was a suggestion only
08:38:41  <George> any topic on the forums?
08:38:47  <andythenorth> no you could start one
08:38:56  <andythenorth> it's needed especially for things like quarries
08:39:02  <George> Yes
08:39:38  <George> - for mines and + for tourist centres :)
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08:39:56  <andythenorth> wrt industry previews - I think they're unrelated to this issue
08:40:06  <andythenorth> they don't add anything imo
08:40:25  <andythenorth> but that's not what you're ticket was about anyway George ?
08:41:14  <George> my FS was about the possibility for map generator to place tourists industry. Nothing else :)
08:42:50  <andythenorth> could probably get the result into a byte
08:43:04  <andythenorth> one nibble with 0-F for relative height to N tile
08:43:13  <andythenorth> 8 is 'same as N tile'
08:43:31  <andythenorth> one nibble is stuffed with slope data - not sure if it fits though
08:43:49  <andythenorth> slopes might not fit
08:43:59  <andythenorth> meh
08:44:04  <andythenorth> I am no good at that kind of stuff
08:44:13  * andythenorth -> takes the baby out to the museum
08:44:17  <andythenorth> bbl
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08:54:31  <Alberth> George: if you work relative to the highest or lowest point, you only need +
08:56:12  <George> Alberth: I know, but how would a mine look like? It would be some rised land on a plato with a pit in the middle
08:56:18  <George> does not look well
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08:56:35  <George> mine should look like a pit on the plato
08:57:56  <George> anyway, I doub any industry would use value above +8 or below -8, so a signed int result should be fine
08:58:54  <Rubidium> but till what extent must the land be exactly like the heightmap?
08:59:35  <Rubidium> e.g. you say it must be completely flat, like an airport, so it must be completely leveled... however, an airport can be built on slightly not-so-leveled terrain
08:59:42  <Eddi|zuHause> "min" and "max" values?
08:59:48  <Rubidium> it'll just use foundations
09:00:24  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then you'd have say 0, -1 for each of the airport tiles for this to work
09:01:00  <Rubidium> but... what if 90% is at -1, then the few remaining are "above" the place where the heightmap would be
09:02:17  <Rubidium> unless you say it must be at X when foundations are laid, but that may wreak havoc when the industry draws without foundations
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09:04:02  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, there must be separate ways to decide "raw" map shape or "with foundation" map shape
09:04:49  <Eddi|zuHause> neuschwanstein would check the "raw" shape, and an airport would check the "with foundation" map shape
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09:06:20  <Rubidium> and then there's the question from which point to calculate the heights
09:06:43  <Rubidium> one would say 0,0 of the industry, but if I'm not mistaken that might be empty
09:07:52  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, north corner should be the right origin. each position could get also a "don't care" value
09:08:20  <Rubidium> but what if 0,0 is such a don't care value?
09:08:50  <Rubidium> should a nearby hill, where you don't build on, influence the height to build the industry?
09:09:18  <Eddi|zuHause> that's a problem for the newgrf author to solve?
09:09:26  <Rubidium> e.g. the shape could be right, but due to that nearby hill it's 1 tile too low, and so you can't build it
09:25:39  <Eddi|zuHause> err... something's not right with the spreadsheet
09:26:27  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd call it a "desync"
09:29:03  <planetmaker> hm?
09:29:48  <planetmaker> in what way, Eddi|zuHause ?
09:30:40  <Eddi|zuHause> my sheet says "saved 12 hours ago/saving", and when i open it in another browser, it looks totally different (someone re-sorted it in the mean time)
09:30:53  <Eddi|zuHause> and the additions i made are now at the wrong places
09:31:46  <planetmaker> that sounds nasty
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09:34:05  <planetmaker> are you sure we need both epochs, 3 and 4?
09:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause> that's more of a "common standard"
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09:40:41  <Eddi|zuHause> if you tell anyone involved with railways you're talking about epoche 4, he'll know exactly what you're talking about
09:41:11  <planetmaker> interesting. Never heart that before ;-)
09:41:15  <Eddi|zuHause> "epoche 0" is a bit of a stretch, though ;)
09:41:26  * Rubidium doesn't have a clue either
09:41:58  <Eddi|zuHause>
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09:57:00  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that is as official as it gets:
09:57:51  <planetmaker> :-)
09:59:11  <Eddi|zuHause> most notable difference between epoche 3 and epoche 4 is the engine numbers (BR 110 instead of BR E10, etc.)
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10:03:18  <JVassie> hi guys
10:03:26  <JVassie> new sheet?
10:04:29  <JVassie> planetmaker: Eddi|zuHause
10:05:03  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: why?
10:05:13  <JVassie> there is a new sheet
10:05:15  <JVassie> someones working on
10:05:19  <JVassie> wondering what its for?
10:05:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea what you're talking about
10:08:00  <Eddi|zuHause> ah, there
10:09:29  <Eddi|zuHause> timeline is especially useful for the "core" set
10:19:51  <planetmaker> that's what I'd like to add there only
10:20:32  <JVassie> planetmaker: whats the plan for it matE?
10:20:40  <JVassie> oh
10:20:47  <JVassie> is that to charter what weve got in the set so far?
10:21:05  <JVassie> oh i see
10:21:11  <JVassie> picking the core set to cover the spans
10:26:58  <JVassie> planetmaker: V200 is express pax too, no?
10:27:19  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: different V200
10:27:37  <JVassie> full name of this V200 so i can check up on it pls?
10:27:47  <JVassie> BR220?
10:27:51  <Eddi|zuHause> V200 (west) == express passengers, V200 (east) = cargo
10:28:09  <JVassie> do they look the same?
10:28:12  <Eddi|zuHause> no
10:28:18  <Eddi|zuHause> completely different
10:28:24  <JVassie> kk ill look
10:28:27  <Eddi|zuHause> V200 (east) is a russian model
10:28:33  <Eddi|zuHause> M62(?)
10:28:40  <Eddi|zuHause> one of those
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10:29:22  <JVassie>
10:29:26  <JVassie> see what you mean
10:29:28  <Eddi|zuHause>
10:29:53  <JVassie> Baureihe just means class right?
10:30:11  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
10:30:18  <JVassie> :)
10:30:59  <Eddi|zuHause> V means Verbrennungsmotor (combustion engine)
10:31:05  <Eddi|zuHause> and 200 means 2000PS
10:31:14  <JVassie> ah ok
10:31:32  <Eddi|zuHause> (2000hp)
10:31:49  <JVassie> an express loco for the 50s would be good planetmaker; E10 perhaps?
10:31:55  <JVassie> its quite a famous loco
10:32:03  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, quite definitely
10:32:10  <Eddi|zuHause> list of engines is by no means complete yet
10:32:17  <planetmaker> I didn't make any choice, but relied on eddi's markings ;-)
10:32:31  <planetmaker> and that was clear to me, yes  :-)
10:32:35  <JVassie> ah ok
10:32:41  <JVassie> picking the ones marked core already
10:32:43  <JVassie> no drama :)
10:32:58  <Eddi|zuHause> but i gtg now
10:33:02  <JVassie> no worries
10:33:12  <planetmaker> well, as said: I've not much clue about the different engines
10:33:30  <planetmaker> I might when I see an image recognize some. I just did copy&paste...
10:33:39  <JVassie> some Swiss/Austrian stuff would look good too
10:33:44  <JVassie> no worries planetmaker ;)
10:33:54  <planetmaker> feel free to make a choice on some additional core engines
10:34:06  <planetmaker> (IMHO). Dunno what Eddi|zuHause thinks ;-)
10:34:15  <Eddi|zuHause> feel also free to add swiss/austrian engines ;)
10:34:19  <JVassie> especially like the ETR470
10:34:24  <JVassie> that goes to stuttgart i know for sure
10:34:30  <JVassie> (or used to when i was on it last)
10:34:49  <Eddi|zuHause> also we should include czech and polish engines
10:35:09  <JVassie> should we limit it to cross border stuff or?
10:35:17  <Eddi|zuHause> no
10:35:21  <JVassie> perhaps cross border for limited core stuff
10:35:28  <JVassie> but include much more in the extended set
10:35:44  <JVassie> we need a definition for core I think
10:35:48  <JVassie> unless we have one already
10:36:06  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd imagine a choice list like: "Epoche 1: none/prussia/saxony/bavaria/austria/all"
10:36:09  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: has one ;-)
10:36:33  <JVassie> Eddi needs adding to the team on devzone
10:36:38  <planetmaker> indeed
10:36:43  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: don't worry about "core" for now, just add engines ;)
10:36:49  <JVassie> :D
10:36:52  <JVassie> yessir!
10:37:10  <JVassie> need to fidn out about these new SBB double deck IC/IR sets
10:37:12  <JVassie> *find
10:37:58  <planetmaker> added you on the devzone, too, Eddi|zuHause
10:38:11  <Eddi|zuHause> a choice like this for each of the epochs
10:38:31  <JVassie>
10:38:45  <Eddi|zuHause> like "Epoche 3: none/west germany/east germany/austria/poland/all"
10:39:02  <JVassie> is that the core definition?
10:39:05  <JVassie> sounds good
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10:39:33  <Eddi|zuHause> for each of these settings, there should be enough engines in the "core" set to be useful
10:39:59  <JVassie> aye reckon so
10:40:00  <JVassie> ooh
10:40:01  <JVassie>
10:40:03  <JVassie> very jazzy :D
10:40:16  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you concentrate on "austria", ignore all engines that have "company" set to "DB" or "DR"
10:40:32  <Eddi|zuHause> only take those set to "ÖBB"
10:41:16  <JVassie> uh huh
10:41:19  <Eddi|zuHause> or "BBÖ" before it was restructured
10:41:31  <JVassie>
10:41:38  <JVassie> DB getting them too
10:41:51  <Eddi|zuHause> so things like the E94, which are used in both regions, set to "DRG,BBÖ"
10:42:16  <JVassie> gotcha
10:42:33  <JVassie> need to investigate the Taurus's
10:42:40  <JVassie> how are we gonna handle regional differences etc
10:42:46  <JVassie> theres been multiple versions
10:43:31  <Eddi|zuHause> minor differences => ignore
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12:03:43  * andythenorth ponders reworking FIRS cargos
12:03:46  <andythenorth> how about Rice?
12:04:30  <execat> How do you enable selling and buying shares?
12:04:40  <execat> In my multiplayer game, that option is grayed out.
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12:07:10  <Alberth> iirc that is a setting in the advanced options
12:07:25  <Alberth> server-side :)
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12:08:49  <execat> Alberth: Is it? Lemme check.
12:09:35  <execat> Alberth: Indeed. Thanks :)
12:11:13  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22602 /branches/1.1/src/settings.cpp: [1.1] -Fix: MSVC compile warning
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12:19:40  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause, planetmaker: Did you consider different track types akin to yet?
12:21:44  <planetmaker> michi_cc: not directly
12:22:01  <planetmaker> The set must be usable IMHO with many track newgrfs
12:22:22  <planetmaker> trains can be adjusted to make use of them appropriately though, if present
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12:30:11  <michi_cc> There isn't really anything besides NuTracks though right now that introduces a lot of different track types. And those mostly aren't really different, just another work-around for speed limits. (Not counting MetroTracks and Pikka's tracks here, as they are quite specialized)
12:31:13  <planetmaker> agreed.
12:31:23  <planetmaker> Throwing together such track set would be moderately easy
12:31:46  <planetmaker> Graphics around are abundant, from default tracks, NuTracks and SwedishRails.
12:32:02  <planetmaker> 50% would be c&p from swedishrails
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12:33:36  <andythenorth> there's little mileage in drawing new rail sprites now
12:33:40  <andythenorth> mostly done
12:36:52  <planetmaker> such set would make sense when this CETS kinda picks up somewhat ;-)
12:36:58  <planetmaker> with different axle weights
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12:37:55  <michi_cc> Organizing a track set along axle weight (as mb seems to be planning) makes more sense than a plain speed categorization IMHO, as it gives better opportunity to include similar, yet equally interesting locos in a set.
12:38:03  <Wolf01> miau
12:39:07  <andythenorth> can tracks be used to create priority?
12:39:19  <Alberth> I know about a wolf in sheeps-cloths, but a cat?
12:39:29  <andythenorth> e.g. low axle load to keep freight trains off two tracks of a four-track route?
12:39:30  <planetmaker> michi_cc: but then the question is: why not always buy / build the better tracks and run everything there?
12:39:59  * andythenorth hasn't found that much use yet for extra-clever track stuff :|
12:40:12  <andythenorth> electric overhead / 3rd rail makes sense
12:40:31  <andythenorth> and narrow gauge / standard gauge / mixed is an under-developed idea
12:41:06  <michi_cc> Make them expensive enough so that players who do care have a reason. And players who like to haul coal with maglevs won't care anyway, so those can be ignored.
12:42:53  <planetmaker> price factor difference of 4 between track types or so... hm
12:43:44  <planetmaker> still, as money is little reason to do or not do something in most games after 10 years (except with yacd ;-) )
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12:48:38  <andythenorth> there could be eye candy reasons for track sets, but they would be too much trouble to use
12:48:57  <andythenorth> like fenced, unfenced, concrete track, snow sheds etc
12:49:47  <planetmaker> that's the reason for SER... but of course you can only have one type of fence there. But every you want ;_)
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12:53:44  <George> can someone help with strings with cases? Have a look here please
12:54:41  <Yexo> George: the thorn should be before the start of the string, so before the first 9A
12:54:53  <Yexo> and there should only be one of them per string
12:55:28  <George> could you fix that string to show how should it look like?
12:55:52  <Yexo> 1 * 1 04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ" 9A 14 9A 10 01 "bútorgyárat" 9A 11 "Bútorgyár" 9A 12 00 <- something like that
12:56:06  <Yexo> only 9A is not valid in a unicode string, so you'd have to escape that too
12:57:15  <Yexo> 1 * 1 04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ" \UE09A 14 \UE09A 10 01 "bútorgyárat" \UE09A 11 "Bútorgyár" \UE09A 12 00 <- I think like this
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12:58:15  <Yexo> not sure if you do support ttdpatch, but if you do you'll want to include this string only for openttd, for ttdpach only include the default case
12:58:24  <Yexo> ie the "Bútorgyár" part
13:00:42  <George> //!!Invalid escape sequence.
13:00:42  <George> //    0 * 0     04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ" \UE09A 14 \UE09A 10 01 "bútorgyárat" \UE09A 11 "Bútorgyár" \UE09A 12 00
13:00:57  <George> (NFO renum report)
13:02:15  <andythenorth>
13:02:18  <planetmaker> yes, the number of " is too large
13:02:52  <planetmaker> the special chars need to be inside the string
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13:03:03  <Rubidium> George: might it be that \U.... should be within a string?
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13:03:41  <planetmaker> "Þ\UE09A "14 "\UE09A "10 01 "bútorgyárat \UE09A "11 "Bútorgyár \UE09A "12
13:03:47  <planetmaker> not sure about the other bytes
13:03:50  <Yexo> 10 * 50	 04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ\UE09A" 14 "\UE09A" 10 01 "bútorgyárat" "\UE09A" 11 "Bútorgyár" "\UE09A" 12 00 <- that works
13:03:55  <Yexo> at least for nforenum
13:04:13  <George> 1 * 50     04 0A A4 01 5F DC "Þ\UE09A\UE09Abútorgyárat\UE09ABútorgyár\UE09A" 00
13:04:27  <Yexo> that is the same :)
13:04:31  <Yexo> just written differently
13:09:03  <George> Thank you for help :)
13:09:12  <George> Looks like it works
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13:57:29  <Eddi|zuHause> <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause, planetmaker: Did you consider different track types akin to yet? <-- i wanted to add that column yesterday, but forgot.
13:57:39  <planetmaker> :-)
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14:05:12  <Eddi|zuHause> you know what's weird? yesterday the spreadsheet thing was in german, today it's in english...
14:05:41  <planetmaker> different locale of your browser / os?
14:06:14  <valhalla1w> based on my IP google has been bothering to switch to google.{nl,de,fr} the last week -_-
14:06:17  <Eddi|zuHause> nope, nothing changes
14:06:38  <planetmaker> btw, Eddi|zuHause re E10: there are two optically different versions, the "Kasten" and the "BÃŒgelfalte"
14:07:03  <planetmaker> but technically they seem to be the same... one engine with longer build period (and possibly varying look), or two?
14:07:12  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: same model, just different graphics
14:07:22  <planetmaker> good, then we agree
14:08:21  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm unsure about BR 01, BR 01.10 and BR 01.5 though
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14:11:43  <planetmaker> rather not. Though we might not want to include all - and then it could be a visual change only
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14:26:33  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: Radsatzfahrmasse: 	17,0 t <-- that's the weight important for track type?
14:26:44  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
14:27:39  <Eddi|zuHause> <-- potential track types A/B/C/D
14:28:33  <planetmaker> hm, yes
14:29:53  <Eddi|zuHause> there could separately be versions for low and high speed
14:30:00  <Eddi|zuHause> but not overdo it
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14:33:26  <Eddi|zuHause> A (early, ca. 60km/h), B (normal, electric, ca. 100km/h), C (normal, electric, ca. 140km/h), C' (normal, electric, ca. 200km/h), D (normal, electric, ca. 140 km/h), D' (electric, 350km/h) <-- about 10 track types
14:33:33  <planetmaker> speed limits on tracks are... a bit boring
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14:33:52  <planetmaker> engines already limit that
14:34:08  <Eddi|zuHause> could do C' and D' without limit
14:34:19  <Eddi|zuHause> but very expensive
14:35:29  <Eddi|zuHause> limiting freight wagons to certain axle weights may be troublesome
14:35:47  <Eddi|zuHause> but that's the actually interesting part differing between C and D
14:37:33  <Eddi|zuHause> possibly add B and C with 3rd rail
14:39:03  <Eddi|zuHause> while at it: what happened to the two-railtypes-on-one-tile patch?
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14:39:33  <planetmaker> did it exist?
14:39:45  <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen a screenshot ;)
14:40:02  <Eddi|zuHause> was that from michi_cc?
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15:05:43  <Eddi|zuHause> hm, price factor for railtypes: A: x1, B: x3, Be: x5, C: x9, Ce: x16, C': x32, C'e: x60, D: x32, De: x48, D'e: x196?
15:06:26  <Eddi|zuHause> electrification gets progressively more expensive
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15:09:51  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's IMHO too many track types
15:09:55  <planetmaker> 4 are enough
15:10:12  <Eddi|zuHause> yes. we had this discussion already
15:10:14  <planetmaker> as one will also need electrification
15:10:27  <planetmaker> though... not for all. Some will always have it
15:10:33  <planetmaker> like D
15:10:39  <Eddi|zuHause> could be also a "core" and "extended" set
15:10:49  <planetmaker> :-D
15:11:06  <planetmaker> or was your Be as B electified?
15:11:13  <Eddi|zuHause> Be is electrified, yes
15:11:24  <planetmaker> and what's C' ?
15:11:35  <Eddi|zuHause> C with higher (or no) speed limit
15:13:15  <Eddi|zuHause> the track types in MB's expected track set would be: A, Be, C, C'e and D'e (5 plus transrapid)
15:14:36  <Eddi|zuHause> D and De would only be useful if you also divide cargo wagons by axle weight
15:15:29  <planetmaker> that to me sounds like a useful choice.
15:15:45  <planetmaker> Then one can still add narrow gauge, some 3rd rail and maglev
15:16:42  <Eddi|zuHause> 3rd rail combined with long distance isn't all that common, so a B3 and C3 would likely suffice
15:17:04  <Eddi|zuHause> some sections of berlin outer ring had 3rd rail on the long distance track
15:17:07  <planetmaker> yes, not 3rd rail for all. Possibly one 3rd rail suffices even
15:17:27  <Eddi|zuHause> until the outer ring got electrified, then they separated them, like in all other parts of berlin
15:18:04  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think "high speed" 3rd rail is used anywhere in central europe
15:27:10  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: <-- the old railtype discussion
15:30:28  <JVassie> hi guys
15:31:18  <planetmaker> thanks for finding that again, Eddi|zuHause :-)
15:31:51  <planetmaker> hi JVassie
15:31:59  <JVassie> hows it going?
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15:34:59  <JVassie> also planetmaker / Eddi|zuHause
15:35:05  <JVassie> do we plan tt-forums thread?
15:35:08  <JVassie> *plan a
15:35:25  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: not yet
15:35:37  <planetmaker> not yet. It doesn't need hot air threads ;-)
15:35:38  <JVassie> :)
15:35:42  <JVassie> indeed not
15:35:44  <planetmaker> it has plenty
15:36:16  <planetmaker> of those
15:36:29  <JVassie> yuppers
15:36:41  <JVassie> i was thinking just now about rolling stock
15:36:49  <JVassie> a seperate sheet on the googledoc?
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15:39:04  <JVassie> hey Hyronymus
15:39:13  <Hyronymus> hi Jaime
15:39:15  <JVassie> not seen you on here in a while
15:39:20  <JVassie> Jaime? :p
15:39:45  <Hyronymus> doing fine?
15:40:52  <JVassie> aye not bad thx
15:40:54  <JVassie> yourself?
15:40:56  <Hyronymus> k
15:45:49  <Hyronymus> yexo, planetmaker
15:46:13  <planetmaker> hi Hyronymus
15:46:18  <Hyronymus> hello
15:46:30  * Hyronymus hopes Yexo is here too
15:46:51  <JVassie> im sure he'll read it later if he aint :)
15:47:11  <Hyronymus> k
15:47:38  <Hyronymus> planetmaker: I've been thinking about providing an NML template library
15:47:59  <Hyronymus> I'm hesitant about it though because my own NML skills are far from adequate
15:48:43  <Hyronymus> but the idea is that literally every n00b can browse through a NML template and choose whatever he/she needs to i.e. code an articulated tram
15:48:48  <Yexo> hello Hyronymus
15:48:54  <Yexo> yes, I'm here
15:48:55  <Hyronymus> hi Yexo
15:49:10  <planetmaker> what do you want to generally template, Hyronymus ?
15:49:25  <Hyronymus> to start with all basic stuff
15:49:32  <planetmaker> What I can think of are sprite templates
15:49:38  <planetmaker> like one flat ground tile
15:49:40  <planetmaker> a normal train
15:49:47  <planetmaker> a set of ground tiles with all slopes
15:49:49  <planetmaker> etc
15:49:52  <Hyronymus> yes
15:49:55  <Yexo> I don't think that will work, since combining different templates will require at least some knowledge about nml
15:50:01  <planetmaker> along with the corresponding graphics files
15:50:08  <Yexo> I think the correct way to go would be to create extensive tutorials
15:50:26  <Yexo> oh, sprite templates do make sense :)
15:50:31  <planetmaker> but going beyond sprite templates... is, as yexo says, difficult
15:50:36  <Yexo> sorry, thought you wanted to template the code
15:50:44  <planetmaker> it's then taylored to the individual grf
15:50:53  <Alberth> perhaps make documented examples instead?
15:50:57  <Yexo> if that were possible it'd be a higher level of abstractions and we'd have tried to implement that in nml already
15:50:57  <Hyronymus> hang on
15:51:14  <planetmaker> :-) yeah
15:51:40  <planetmaker> well, if it weren't possible, there'd be no need for templates like we use now in our sets, Yexo ;-)
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15:51:57  <planetmaker> but... those are all relatively specific
15:52:04  <Hyronymus> I'm mixing things up
15:52:08  <Yexo> those are specific for each grf, not general for all grfs
15:52:39  <planetmaker> yes... though the autofence template could be re-used
15:52:57  <planetmaker> as part of other tile layouts
15:53:05  <Hyronymus> isn't it possible to create a code teamplate for lets say steam engines?
15:53:21  <planetmaker> (and leave the authors puzzled why the grf crashes in OpenTTD 1.1.x :-P)
15:53:21  <Yexo> Hyronymus: a basic template? sure
15:53:30  <Hyronymus> yes, a basic template
15:53:32  <Yexo> but as soon as you want anything customized you'll have to implement that as extra
15:53:55  <Alberth> and you have to explain the template anyways somewhere
15:53:57  <Hyronymus> well, customization as in a tender seems fairly standard to me, right
15:53:57  <planetmaker> Hyronymus: a basic 'template' is just a simple code example
15:54:24  <planetmaker> but creating that as a form of tutorial would be great
15:54:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: i'd not say you need a "template" (in the nml sense), but a "code generator" (in the IDE sense)
15:54:46  <Hyronymus> that would be even greater, Eddi|zuHause
15:54:51  <planetmaker> :-D
15:54:54  <Hyronymus> but way above my head
15:55:01  <Hyronymus> *over my head
15:55:09  <Hyronymus> or whatever the expression is in English
15:55:16  <Hyronymus> :D
15:55:48  <Yexo> Hyronymus: something like this but with additional explanations?
15:56:11  <Hyronymus> yes, I was looking for that example
15:56:59  <planetmaker> Yexo: do we want those examples in a) NML documentation b) the tt-wiki c) as regression test?
15:57:03  <Yexo> Bigger example with a callback for the capacity and different grahpics per cargo type
15:57:06  <planetmaker> d) something else?
15:57:28  <Yexo> a) only minimal examples in the nml documentation, it's meant to be reference documentation
15:57:41  <planetmaker> :-D I must have some nearly verbatim copy from ogfx+trains there ;-)
15:57:52  <Yexo> c) regression test should test small portions of code, something like 013 is not really appropriate
15:58:00  <Yexo> so tt-wiki seems to be a good place
15:58:45  <Hyronymus> tt-wiki would do indeed
15:59:39  <Hyronymus> also since the grf stuff is there too
16:00:03  <planetmaker> alternatively it could of course also go to the development section of the openttd wiki
16:00:11  <Yexo> tt-wiki is more fitting
16:00:19  <planetmaker> ^ I tend to agree, though
16:00:21  <Yexo> nfo tutorials would also fit there, it keeps everything in one place
16:01:18  <Hyronymus> how much will it be to set it up?
16:01:43  <planetmaker> setup what?
16:01:50  <planetmaker> a wiki page is easy to create ;-)
16:02:02  <Hyronymus> the wiki frame on tt-wiki
16:02:24  <planetmaker> what frame?
16:02:35  <Hyronymus> uhm
16:02:37  <Hyronymus> boy
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16:02:49  <Hyronymus> never had so much problem explaining myelf :P
16:02:57  * Hyronymus blames the beer
16:03:02  <planetmaker> :-D
16:03:17  <planetmaker> I'd say: Just start with it
16:03:32  <Hyronymus> how much time will it take to put such more detailed examples on the tt-wiki
16:03:37  <planetmaker> a table of contents of NML tutorials will follow naturally what is there
16:03:39  <Hyronymus> hah, I managed :P
16:03:59  <planetmaker> Dunno? How long does it take you? ;-)
16:04:16  <Hyronymus> looking at the Dutch Trainset development: long
16:04:43  <planetmaker> :-)
16:06:13  <Hyronymus> looking at how to work with a Wiki
16:07:40  <Eddi|zuHause> you mean typing your new page name in the link and clicking on "yes, create new page here"?
16:08:47  <Hyronymus> sst
16:08:49  <Hyronymus> :p
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16:14:48  <Yexo> planetmaker: the sidebar on has a link to "Tutorial" which still links to, while those pages are already copied to
16:20:48  <planetmaker> fixed
16:21:34  <Hyronymus>
16:23:09  <planetmaker> Hyronymus: == indicates headings
16:23:27  <planetmaker> == heading name ==
16:23:40  <Hyronymus> right
16:25:08  <Hyronymus> hmm
16:25:23  <Hyronymus> double heading now :o
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16:29:25  <planetmaker> The page name is always the first an upper most heading
16:30:16  <Hyronymus> I see
16:30:27  <Hyronymus> I now moved it to NMLTutorial
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16:30:37  <Hyronymus> I saw lakie did that for GRFTutorial once
16:30:41  <frosch123> Hyronymus: add a category right from the start
16:31:56  <Hyronymus> uhm, will try frosch123
16:33:14  <Hyronymus> done
16:33:38  <frosch123> planetmaker: the tutorial page which is linked now, seems to be something copletely different than the old tutorials
16:34:00  <JVassie> <Yexo> I think the correct way to go would be to create extensive tutorials
16:34:04  <Yexo> yes, correct link would be
16:34:05  <planetmaker> [[Category:NML]] @ Hyronymus
16:34:05  <JVassie> I do plan to help on that front
16:34:07  <JVassie> :p
16:34:20  <Yexo> however that page misses a table of contents
16:34:35  <planetmaker> Yexo: frosch123 I looked at both pages. The current one seems the better link to me
16:34:37  <Yexo> JVassie: great, you have a starting point now:
16:34:43  <JVassie> woo \o/
16:34:49  <frosch123> planetmaker: ah, sorry, the page just lacks links to the subpages
16:35:22  <Hyronymus> it misses real content, not just the table
16:35:23  <Yexo> planetmaker: right, didn't look to closely, Tutorials links back to GRFTutorial, so it's fine :)
16:35:23  <Hyronymus> :P
16:35:28  <JVassie> Yexo: I might put up a 'my first train in NML' tutorial tonight
16:35:41  <frosch123> planetmaker: vs.
16:36:35  <planetmaker> yes... I noticed the "sprite drawing" and the "grf tutorial" - which both IMHO is important.
16:37:05  <frosch123> but presignals, not exactly :p
16:37:09  <planetmaker> :-)
16:37:16  <planetmaker> that's the measurement error
16:37:42  <frosch123> how about moving drawingsprites to GRFTutorials?
16:37:50  <frosch123> and only link GrfTutorials froms the specs?
16:37:52  <planetmaker> that's a solution, too
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16:38:07  <frosch123> (besided GRFTutorials lacks links to all tutorials)
16:39:50  <JVassie> can newgrfs access the current game's difficulty settings?
16:39:57  <planetmaker> yes
16:40:34  <JVassie> so setting runnign costs based on those is possible?
16:40:37  <JVassie> *running
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16:41:08  <Yexo> possible, yes, good idea, not sure
16:41:21  <JVassie> hmm
16:41:27  <JVassie> something to think about perhaps
16:41:29  <JVassie> also btw
16:41:34  <Yexo> when you want to play without AIs for example you difficulty level must be custom
16:41:34  <JVassie> with our idea of core/extended
16:41:41  <Hyronymus> how do I setup a category page
16:41:47  <JVassie> those will be controlled by parameters right?
16:41:51  <Yexo> Hyronymus: click the link and than click edit at the top
16:42:00  <Yexo> JVassie: yes
16:42:13  <JVassie> I presume we will actually provide the option of None too?
16:42:20  <JVassie> so None/Core/Extended
16:42:22  <Yexo> what would be the point of that?
16:42:34  <JVassie> so if people dotn want trains from Czech
16:42:38  <JVassie> *republic
16:42:42  <JVassie> they dont have to include them
16:42:54  <nostradamus> guys i just have chosen an invalid resoluton and cant see the game now. How do i change it in my registry?
16:43:14  <Yexo> nostradamus: read readme.txt section 4.2, find openttd.cfg and fix it in there
16:43:56  <Eddi|zuHause> type alt+enter in the game to switch to windowed mode
16:44:02  <Yexo> most likely place: My Documents\OpenTTD\openttd.cfg
16:44:26  <nostradamus> danke eddi ;) thx to yexo as well
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16:49:15  <planetmaker> [18:35]	planetmaker	[[Category:NML]] @ Hyronymus
16:49:57  <planetmaker> JVassie: I don't really like to depend things on the difficulty settings
16:50:13  <planetmaker> it complicates things a lot and makes testing a BIG PAIN
16:50:26  <planetmaker> and I'm not sure it adds anything
16:50:34  <planetmaker> rather direct parameters IMHO
16:55:07  <Ammler> maybe you can have different "defaults" for the parameters depending on difficulty settings...
16:59:28  <planetmaker> I'm not sure that's possible
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16:59:40  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: the thought was like this, eg. if you want to play a silesia scenario, you choose "Set: core", "Epoche 1: prussian railway", "Epoche 2: DRG", "Epoche 3: PKP"
17:00:54  <Hyronymus> nice idea
17:00:57  <Eddi|zuHause> if you play a DDR scenario, you choose e.g "Set: core", "Epoche 1: none", "Epoche 2: none", "Epoche 3: DR"
17:01:23  <frosch123> planetmaker: was there any result in the callback template? vs.
17:01:33  <Hyronymus> can different epoches have different cost multipliers
17:02:05  <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: why would that be necessary?
17:02:13  <frosch123> i don't like the abbreviation of CB as it does not really make stuff shorter with so many parameters, but i have no opinion on the format
17:02:14  <planetmaker> frosch123: yours seems slightly more elaborate, mine a sub-set of yours. Thus Template:Callback would seem like the choice.
17:02:16  <Hyronymus> not necessairy
17:02:29  <Hyronymus> but it might make gameplay after 50 years harder
17:02:50  <frosch123> should we install the parser extention to make use of #if for conditional display of rows?
17:03:06  <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: there is inflation for that
17:03:07  <planetmaker> oh, that's not default?
17:03:10  <planetmaker> that'd be nice then
17:03:17  <frosch123> apparently now :)
17:03:31  <frosch123> orudge: we need the parser extention, please :)
17:03:31  <Hyronymus> inflation doesn't matter much to large companies though
17:03:35  <planetmaker> :-)
17:03:44  <frosch123> damns, s/now/not/
17:03:49  <Hyronymus> but I think that requires a different approach
17:04:03  <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: if you want to be really evil, you can use the running cost callback to increase for older engines
17:04:16  <planetmaker> :-)
17:04:27  <planetmaker> double every 10 years
17:04:36  <Hyronymus> some people on the forums believe I invented evil
17:04:40  <Hyronymus> so bring it on :P
17:04:43  <planetmaker> didn't you?
17:04:50  * planetmaker hides
17:04:54  * Hyronymus points to his parents
17:05:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Hyronymus: i think it's a little early to decide this stuff, though
17:05:20  <Hyronymus> possaibly
17:05:27  <Hyronymus> *possibly
17:08:50  <planetmaker> quite so. IMHO the further path would now be: get list of engines for the core set, get the sprites, get the engines (and wagons?) into the game in a somewhat 'basic' way.
17:09:07  <planetmaker> Then start adding the advanced things.
17:09:30  <Eddi|zuHause> there are only a handful of different wagons, most can probably be done with recolouring
17:09:49  <planetmaker> yes. Recolouring will hopefully soon be no issue
17:10:07  <planetmaker> Currently I have a bit trouble to use all 256 recolour sprites :-)
17:10:15  <planetmaker> at least in random varaction2
17:12:00  <Eddi|zuHause> i think the company colours are probably not right for recolouring, need custom masks
17:14:35  <planetmaker> well. Feasible as well. Will be interesting, though, I've never done that before
17:15:01  <Yexo> planetmaker: I don't think Eddi|zuHause means recolouring in the grf, I think he means manual recolouring of the sprites in an image editing program
17:15:22  <planetmaker> maybe :-)
17:15:34  <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: well, could be one or the other...
17:17:36  <andythenorth> moar wagons!
17:17:37  <planetmaker> indeed I'd like to test custom re-colouring at one date...
17:17:41  <andythenorth> moar = better :D
17:18:42  <Eddi|zuHause> scale: i propose 24m = 16lu (1 tile)
17:18:47  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: all look alike to what? :P
17:18:56  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: all ships :p
17:19:12  * andythenorth lulz :|
17:19:16  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: like "all chinese people look alike" :p
17:19:35  * andythenorth subscribes to newsletter called "why bother" :D
17:20:00  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that means articulated engines for the steamers
17:20:42  <Eddi|zuHause> yes, most things need articulation, and longwagon-ish handling
17:20:42  <andythenorth> fwiw, FISH appears to have accidentally been draw to scale of 1px = 2 feet in length ( - view)
17:20:56  <andythenorth> this was not a conscious choice
17:21:19  <andythenorth> a certain amount of post-rationalisation may have happened :P
17:21:40  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2*64*12*2.54
17:21:40  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3901.44
17:21:48  <frosch123> <- impressive page.... does that mean tt-wiki is actually older than the ttdpatch wiki?
17:22:25  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so 1 tile = 39m?
17:22:37  <frosch123> hmm, nvm, seems that page is importet from ttdpatch wiki
17:23:27  <frosch123> makes it interesting nevertheless though
17:23:58  <frosch123> setting up the ttdpatch wiki in 2004 resulted in the same todo items than setting up the new wiki today :)
17:24:02  <Eddi|zuHause> not that there would be any use in scaling railways to ships, though ;)
17:24:22  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: everything repeats itself
17:24:46  *** Hyronymus is now known as Hyr|away
17:25:24  <planetmaker> lol
17:26:28  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the steam engines in dbset are already 1 tile long
17:26:39  <planetmaker> ah... back to start for Hyr|away it seems: "- Write tutorials for pre-signals, for the new graphics features and perhaps other things"
17:26:53  <JVassie> back
17:27:04  <planetmaker> also in NARS / UKRS
17:27:15  <andythenorth> @calc 30 / 50
17:27:15  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 0.6
17:27:24  <andythenorth> @calc 50/30
17:27:24  <DorpsGek> andythenorth: 1.66666666667
17:27:33  <Eddi|zuHause> main problem in those sets is that the (passenger) wagons are not to scale
17:27:34  <andythenorth> NARS 2 is 1 px per 1.6 feet
17:27:37  <andythenorth> approx
17:27:53  <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1.6*64*12*2.54
17:27:53  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3121.152
17:27:54  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: they're too short?
17:28:14  <frosch123> [19:27] <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the steam engines in dbset are already 1 tile long <- excluding the tender
17:28:46  <frosch123> and iirc some extent towards the front
17:29:22  <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i was under the impression LÃŒP would be including tender
17:30:53  <andythenorth> sometimes a bit of selective compression is good
17:31:02  <andythenorth> the game looks better when it's got a toylike aspect
17:31:30  <andythenorth> one of the better things about 32bpp (there aren't many) is the compressed trains
17:31:42  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the toy-like aspect won't go away
17:36:15  <JVassie> @calc 440+470+470+395+470
17:36:15  <DorpsGek> JVassie: 2245
17:36:26  <JVassie> @calc 350+340+420
17:36:27  <DorpsGek> JVassie: 1110
17:37:17  <Eddi|zuHause> a BR01 is around 24m, and a UIC-Y wagon is also around 24m (UIC-X around 26m). yet the BR01 is twice as long as any wagon
17:37:38  <JVassie> lul
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17:38:09  <JVassie> @calc 187+27+865
17:38:09  <DorpsGek> JVassie: 1079
17:41:39  <JVassie> planetmaker, Eddi|zuHause
17:41:50  <JVassie> were gonna need to charter which locos had which liveries and when
17:42:38  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: that should be easy, livery is mostly defined by company and date
17:42:40  <planetmaker> currently they will all have exactly one livery ;-)
17:42:52  <JVassie> pfft
17:43:05  <planetmaker> but yes, they're very easy to add
17:43:18  <JVassie> and we need a schema for passenger wagons :p
17:44:10  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22603 /trunk/src/lang/korean.txt:
17:44:10  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:44:10  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
17:44:11  <Eddi|zuHause> get the engines first
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17:45:04  <Eddi|zuHause> Parameter: "livery defined by: build date/servicing date/current date"?
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17:46:48  <JVassie> nice idea Eddi|zuHause
17:46:59  <JVassie> is it possible I presume?
17:47:08  <Eddi|zuHause> it should be...
17:47:33  <Eddi|zuHause> servicing date might need a "long format" version
17:47:42  <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise it won't work before 1920
17:48:07  <JVassie> My preference would be build date
17:48:09  <JVassie> speaking of which
17:48:28  <JVassie> its possible to force a wagon to keep the same livery no matter the current year?
17:48:33  <JVassie> even if it enters a depot?
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17:48:58  <andythenorth> liveries are over-rated :P
17:48:59  <andythenorth> 2CC
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17:49:28  <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: liveries are half the fun...
17:49:56  <JVassie> exactly
17:50:08  <JVassie> beign able to mix and match liveries on traisn in later years is awesome
17:50:36  <andythenorth> I pity the fool
17:50:40  <andythenorth> who has to draw them :P
17:50:43  <andythenorth> drawing sucks
17:51:16  <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: the "last service" won't work before 1920 indeed
17:51:29  <planetmaker> and after 2090 or so
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17:52:06  <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: if you set parameter to "build date", then it won't change livery on entering depot
17:52:29  <JVassie> woo
17:52:38  <JVassie> and thats for wagons too, correct?
17:52:49  <planetmaker> wagons and engines are no difference really
17:52:55  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm quite certain we won't introduce new liveries after 2090 :p
17:53:02  <planetmaker> :-)
17:53:44  <JVassie> :D
17:53:46  <JVassie> awesome
17:55:54  <JVassie> Eddi, another thought
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17:56:11  <JVassie> how do livery overrides (by locomotive) and livery refits, come into your scheme?
17:56:51  <planetmaker> obviously for the MUs
17:57:03  <planetmaker> Livery refit... as drawn and sensible
17:57:17  <planetmaker> but IMHO that's details TBD later
17:57:39  <JVassie> gotcha
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17:58:04  <planetmaker> thus the MUs will need special PAX wagons
17:58:44  <planetmaker> but well... maybe :-)
17:59:06  <planetmaker> it's just adding a few more lines
17:59:15  <JVassie> hehe
18:00:36  <planetmaker> I'm looking forward to the long wagon thingy ;-)
18:00:46  <JVassie> whats hte plan re: that?
18:00:52  <JVassie> <Eddi|zuHause> a BR01 is around 24m, and a UIC-Y wagon is also around 24m (UIC-X around 26m). yet the BR01 is twice as long as any wagon
18:00:54  <planetmaker> 1-tile wagons
18:01:17  <planetmaker> eddi has some code for that
18:01:47  <Eddi|zuHause>
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18:06:19  <JVassie> interesting
18:07:41  <JVassie> this would obviously have to apply to MU engines too
18:08:03  <JVassie> which are more often than not the same (+/- a tiny amount) size as the wagons
18:11:21  <JVassie> 2x size pax cars look weird! :p
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18:43:58  <Hyronymus> w00t
18:44:07  <Hyronymus> added a TOC to the NML wiki
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19:06:06  * __ln__ saw a flying dutchman
19:12:53  <Hyronymus> lies
19:13:38  <__ln__> honest
19:14:10  * Hyronymus denies everything
19:15:01  *** devilsadvocate [~quassel@] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
19:21:47  <__ln__> he was on an F-16
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19:44:01  <Eddi|zuHause> so you didn't actually "see" him while flying.
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20:09:49  <Wolf01> 'night
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21:28:54  <dihedral> must have some wrong code somewhere: * null ( has joined #channel
21:34:31  <Eddi|zuHause> BR 119 - rumÀnische Grossdiesellok (23. August) [mit erhöhter SchadenshÀufigkeit :cool:] <- lmao :p
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21:43:34  <Terkhen> good night
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21:51:13  <dihedral> night
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22:53:13  <JVassie> hai guys
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