Log for #openttd on 23rd July 2011:
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00:00:01  <frosch123> night
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02:13:47  <makubi> Hi, I got a question. I am running openttd dedicated server on debian, but if I start it, it says that I have to install a graphic set.
02:14:11  <makubi> Do I really have to install an graphics set? I do not want to use an UI on this server.
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02:38:57  <fjb> You have to load it, even if you have no grphics display.
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05:30:38  <andythenorth> bonjour
05:31:09  <andythenorth> have openttd devs taken away any more of my freedoms since last night?
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05:57:32  <Rubidium> andythenorth: ofcourse
05:58:13  <andythenorth> omfg
05:58:17  <andythenorth> :P
05:58:35  <peter1138> oh dear
05:58:46  <peter1138> i read that as... openttd daves :S
05:59:07  <andythenorth> Rubidium: I don't wan't to be treated as cattle, I want to be free
05:59:24  <peter1138> wan't!
05:59:36  <andythenorth> don't tell me how to spell
05:59:40  <andythenorth> my spelling is free
06:00:22  <andythenorth> incidentally does the linux kernel do anything to prevent users unintentionally writing crap all over their data?
06:01:34  <andythenorth> can I just swap two modules that behave entirely differently but use the same memory location?
06:01:37  <andythenorth> with no probelms?
06:04:58  <Rubidium> andythenorth: kernel modules? written yourself?
06:05:12  <andythenorth> no downloaded from arbitrary third parties
06:05:18  <andythenorth> who may or may not be around
06:05:32  <andythenorth> and may or may not have a license that allows you to patch / maintain the module
06:05:47  <Rubidium> when you load something into the kernel all bets are generally off
06:06:26  <Rubidium> it could well be some sort of hostageware or so
06:06:38  <Rubidium> and then your data isn't safe
06:06:42  <andythenorth> and linux guis make that easy to do?
06:07:37  <Rubidium> I have no idea; don't know any GUIs that (re)load kernel modules
06:08:04  <andythenorth> unfree!
06:08:53  <andythenorth> it's a symptom of rising unfreedom that linux users can't reload kernel modules whenever they like
06:09:28  <peter1138> i bet he's the sort of person who uses computers as Administrator/root
06:09:41  <andythenorth> also
06:09:43  <andythenorth> file formats
06:09:47  <andythenorth> symptom of unfreedom
06:10:03  <andythenorth> I should be able to order my bytes however I want, at my own risk
06:10:19  <andythenorth> the enforcing of a format is unfree
06:10:46  <Rubidium> but you have chosen for the unfreedom by chosing to install said software
06:11:17  <peter1138> i'm reminded of John Gilmore
06:12:15  <__ln__> at least 80 people shot dead
06:12:32  <peter1138> wtf
06:13:00  <andythenorth> it's not a fun news day :|
06:22:52  <andythenorth> hmm
06:22:56  <andythenorth> openttd is quite like ms
06:23:05  <andythenorth> it has done embrace-and-extend to ttdp
06:24:10  <andythenorth> implement the same API, then subtly extend the API in non-compatible ways
06:28:43  <andythenorth> and by offering them features, openttd hides from users all the ways in which they are being had
06:28:55  <andythenorth> locking them in and exploiting them
06:29:13  <andythenorth> openttd is an exemplary evil entity
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06:33:33  <andythenorth> the use of the GPL is another symptom of this proprietary mentality
06:34:50  <andythenorth> openttd developers are behaving like an evil empire, limiting the freedoms of people with a license that imposes nothing but control
06:35:13  <andythenorth> the license insists the software must be free.  That's unfree!
06:35:53  <andythenorth> controlling users by giving them the right to modify the software in any way they choose.  Unfree!
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07:01:49  <KittenKoder> o.O
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07:09:21  <planetmaker> moin
07:09:31  <planetmaker> to the channel of the un-free ;-)
07:09:47  <KittenKoder> >.>
07:10:07  <planetmaker> KittenKoder: it's reference to a certain forum thread
07:10:45  <KittenKoder> Oookaaaay .... haven't seen it.
07:12:36  <planetmaker> andythenorth: good actually that we have you. Your painting skills are dearly needed to paint over the stains slavery leaves behind ;-)
07:12:54  <flitz> a need an advice ... again :(
07:13:32  <KittenKoder> Hmm ... perhaps someone can link the forum thread that I might share in this inside joke?
07:13:59  <planetmaker> <-- obvious title, eh?
07:14:08  <KittenKoder> TY
07:14:12  <andythenorth> it's dumb
07:14:30  <flitz> If I do something like:     Train *virt = (Train*)calloc(1, sizeof(Train));    I want this virt-Train to behave like a normal one. I can fill it with the necessary data field values but how could I call a Train:: member function on virt ?
07:14:41  <andythenorth> from "you can't change newgrfs" to "it's fascism" in less than 2 pages of a thread
07:15:15  <planetmaker> ha, andythenorth: I just missed the word 'godwin event' - but yes, I don't quite recall it either
07:16:27  <KittenKoder> You were right .... it's dumb .. but at least your joke now makes sense to me.
07:17:16  * planetmaker needs a way to specify a minimum colum width: <-- looks ugly...
07:18:38  <KittenKoder> Aaaw pooh.
07:19:05  <KittenKoder> I think I figured out how to really boost FIRS profits even with all the "hard" settings.
07:19:28  <KittenKoder> Quick question, anyone know if there's a problem with ECS?
07:19:38  <andythenorth> decompile FIRS and change the cargo payment rates?
07:19:40  <flitz> hm, nobody ?
07:19:43  <andythenorth> :P
07:20:19  <KittenKoder> Initial loan paid off in 3 years .... bah, sandboxed again.
07:23:43  <andythenorth> KittenKoder: if you want to lose the game a lot, try YACD, TAI, UKRS 2, high costs, PBI + start in 1890
07:24:06  <andythenorth> I think it's impossible using a 0k initial loan
07:24:21  <KittenKoder> 1890 start would make it harder.
07:24:25  <andythenorth> no RVs
07:24:46  <KittenKoder> No RVs with FIRS is impossible. :p
07:24:58  <KittenKoder> If you have all industries capable of closing.
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07:30:29  <V453000> duh, profits :)
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08:04:28  <Terkhen> good morning
08:06:41  <V453000> hi Terkhen :)
08:06:55  <planetmaker> mooooorning :-)
08:07:31  <V453000> hi :P
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08:19:21  <Rubidium> flitz: I guess you need to call at least the constructor so it sets up the vtables properly
08:20:16  <Sacro> grr, my first class seat is going backwards :(
08:20:57  <Rubidium> what? They don't turn around seats in the train?
08:21:03  <Rubidium> how uncivilised
08:22:29  <Sacro> I know :(
08:22:47  <Sacro> and the only free thing I get is tea/coffee or water or a fruit drink
08:22:53  <Sacro> oh and wifi and a comfy leather seat
08:23:03  <Sacro> but the seams are rather harsh
08:23:04  <flitz> you have internet during train rides ? I'm jealous ;)
08:23:22  <Sacro> ooh, this seat is adjustable
08:23:41  <Sacro> I think I just dropped a sachet of milk into an air vent :`
08:23:42  <Sacro> :\
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08:54:26  <flitz> "flitz: I guess you need to call at least the constructor so it sets up the vtables properly"  <<  hooray for inlined functions !
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09:55:29  <Eddi|zuHause> something isn't right, the wikipedia page for the 03.10 says 20bar, but for 01.10 it says 16 bar... why would the two be different?
09:57:27  <Alberth> oh noes, not all information at the internets is reliable!
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11:06:09  <planetmaker> oh, now it suddenly became boring. This HvS guy has no new arguments anymore and kinda re-plays the same old story again and again ;-)
11:06:38  <MNIM> sounds like a forum
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11:35:06  <orudge> frosch123: Cite enabled. (Conveniently, that one does come with Debian :) )
11:35:27  <frosch123> :)
11:35:38  <frosch123> btw. what did you do with the dumphtml?
11:35:54  <frosch123> is it enabled, and what does it do with the output, if it is
11:36:02  <orudge> DumpHTML is actually just a .php scripot
11:36:04  <orudge> *script
11:36:06  <orudge> it's not an extension per se
11:36:19  <orudge> also, it'll need some hacking to get it to recognise that we have multiple MediaWiki installations running out of a single directory
11:36:22  <frosch123> yeah, but could there be a daily cronjob creating a zip
11:36:24  <orudge> so, I'll have to look into that
11:36:28  <frosch123> which we can link from the main toc?
11:36:31  <orudge> and yes, that's the eventual intention
11:36:45  <frosch123> ok, thanks :)
11:36:53  <orudge> might have to wait until tomorrow or Monday though, as I'm heading away for the weekend shortly
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11:47:39  <frosch123> <- yay for footnotes
11:50:10  <andythenorth> if someone voids the warranty, do they get their money back
11:50:11  <andythenorth> ?
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12:43:54  <andythenorth> do these look too similar?
12:44:01  <andythenorth> can you tell them apart?
12:45:55  <MNIM> well, one is bigger, du
12:46:55  <SpComb> one got the end chopped off
12:46:57  <MNIM> Id say a little bit more difference on the building would have
12:47:10  <MNIM> SpComb: one of 'em has higher boards too
12:47:24  <SpComb> yeah, the front is slimmer too
12:47:29  <andythenorth> the house is identical on both
12:47:36  <MNIM> perhaps give one of them a CC coloured chimney and one in black only?
12:47:36  <SpComb> quite
12:47:47  <andythenorth> MNIM: that's not a bad idea
12:47:51  <andythenorth> the bigger one is new
12:47:55  <andythenorth> work in progress
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12:48:56  <MNIM> Id say give the bigger one the black chimney, as it already has it's CC visible enough without a CC chimney
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13:15:13  <planetmaker> anyone knows whether ttdpatch implements NewObjects, variable 0x48 (views)
13:16:39  * andythenorth needs to name that boat
13:21:17  <frosch123> planetmaker: r2355
13:21:30  <planetmaker> ok, thx
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14:16:02  <michi_cc> planetmaker: look broken (and yes, I checked several browsers :)
14:16:50  <planetmaker> the numbers after a few of those version thingies?
14:16:59  <planetmaker> that's the NFO version, not a programme version
14:17:51  <michi_cc> Ah, you have a || instead of | in some of the templates, I'll fix that.
14:18:46  <michi_cc> The NFO version needs some better visual though, the way it is right now nobody will understand it.
14:18:58  <planetmaker> agreed
14:19:19  <planetmaker> oh, in that I fixed it already, yes, there slipped some erronous || through
14:20:06  <planetmaker> I wonder whether we should just kick out the NFO versions...
14:20:20  <planetmaker> who's interested in nfo v2 after all? OpenTTD cannot read it...
14:21:13  <Eddi|zuHause> NFO version is relevant in quite a few places
14:21:34  <Eddi|zuHause> most notably the change of language IDs from 6 to 7
14:22:05  <planetmaker> yes. But as now in the properties it's mostly useless
14:22:26  <planetmaker> and elsehwere it's hardly (ever?) mentioned. Except in that one case: languages
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14:32:59  <michi_cc> planetmaker:
14:33:12  <michi_cc> Feel free to revert it if you don't think it's good this way.
14:33:35  <planetmaker> no, it's quite lovely :-)
14:34:00  <michi_cc> That indication might get more important if we ever do v8 :)
14:34:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... not entirely sure why, but these IDs are free: 135, 165, 368, 397, 398
14:34:49  <planetmaker> yup, then it might be more important
14:36:08  <Eddi|zuHause> oh, those are not included entries...
14:38:22  <Eddi|zuHause> 135 is a swiss engine that has a duplicate identifier...
14:38:55  <Eddi|zuHause> 165 is the E10.3
14:39:31  <Eddi|zuHause> 397 and 398 are the saxon narrow gauge engines
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14:40:55  <Eddi|zuHause> and 368 is another duplicate identifier, this time for SBB
14:40:56  <flitz> hi
14:41:51  <flitz> when some (vehicle related) error message appears in an error msg box, the message can be (partly) defined within the newgrf too right ?
14:42:01  <flitz> rather than only in the english.txt
14:43:03  <planetmaker> depends
14:43:50  <flitz> I'm asking because I found one and can't find the related text in the english.txt file and think that I remembered something like this about the grf files
14:44:35  <planetmaker> I'm still no step further in my judgment wrt _your_ error message ;-)
14:45:15  <planetmaker> but things like 'caboose needed' or so must be newgrf supplied
14:45:49  <flitz> I don't care for the specific error :) In my case it is "can haul only high speed carriages" (from the UKRS2 set)
14:46:25  <flitz> I am actually looking for the piece of code that does this particular check
14:46:57  <planetmaker> <-- DaveW made quite a good point there. I'm surprised :-)
14:47:14  <planetmaker> flitz: it's the 'can attach wagon' callback
14:47:23  <Eddi|zuHause> flitz:
14:47:43  <flitz> ah thanks
14:49:06  <planetmaker> hm, I'm quite happy, that we moved the NewGRF wiki
14:49:11  <planetmaker> It's getting better and better :-9
14:49:53  <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Putting the CETS tracking table into docs/ is a bit misleading me thinks... :)
14:50:02  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: maybe
14:51:17  <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: when i put it there, i wasn't quite sure how far the auto-generation will go ;)
14:51:26  <frosch123> michi_cc: planetmaker: i would not use the grf version tags to indicate when something was added. ottd and ttdp added stuff at different points so you cannot define it by the version. i thought those tags were only for differences when something changed
14:51:57  <flitz> hm, would there be an 'easy' way to do callbacks without having an actual Vehicle* at hand ? say if I only had the correct EngineID for example ?
14:52:28  <planetmaker> frosch123: You probably know better what the grf version tags mean... But I do not find everywhere an explanation related to them
14:52:31  <michi_cc> frosch123: It was this way in the old table, but that might have been wrong all along of course :)
14:52:56  <Eddi|zuHause> flitz: only the purchase list does that, afaik. and i don't think that you will get particularly useful results with that
14:53:16  <planetmaker> the 'can attach wagon' CB can only be called from an actual vehicle
14:53:19  <planetmaker> iirc
14:53:30  <frosch123> michi_cc: oh, ok, well, then it was ttdp only anyway :)
14:54:17  <flitz> I'm coming back to this problem time and time again, found some workarounds in some cases but overall it really hurts that I don't have access to many of those vehicle functions without an vehicle
14:54:55  <Eddi|zuHause> flitz: i told you that before ;)
14:55:00  <planetmaker> welcome to the lovely world of newgrfs, flitz ;-)
14:55:13  <flitz> :)
14:55:32  <planetmaker> it'll become even more fun, if you have a vehicle which allows being attached in February and every first week of the month only
14:55:39  <Eddi|zuHause> flitz: you'll find no way around creating vehicles
14:55:48  <planetmaker> ^^
14:56:09  <flitz> my only alternative seemed to be to derive from Train* or so but then I would have stored my templatevehicles together with the normal vehicles and that would have brought even more problems (and less future compatiblity)
14:57:08  <Eddi|zuHause> flitz: i already gave the autoreplace code as reference, it builds a number of virtual vehicles first, before attempting the actual replace
14:57:34  <flitz> if I didn't miss anything, that didn't really help me
14:57:57  <flitz> you mean code like this ?  "Train **old_vehs = CallocT<Train *>(num_units);"
14:58:09  <flitz> from the autoreplace_cmd.cpp
14:59:06  <Eddi|zuHause> not this particular one
15:00:27  <frosch123> take a look at articulated_vehicles.cpp, GetCapacityOfArticulatedParts() and stuff
15:00:46  <frosch123> but you won't be able to test the can-wagon-be-attached without a vehicle
15:01:31  <frosch123> for that you have to add some kind of "virtual train", which you can construct like a normal train, which costs nothing, but you cannot start or load it either
15:01:46  <frosch123> you would also need such a thing for template-based autoreplace :p
15:03:04  <flitz> ok, building a virtual train when creating a template should work
15:03:45  <flitz> thought, the autoreplacement worked for me without virtual vehicles, I did this already a while ago
15:04:24  <Eddi|zuHause> autoreplace builds the new train first, and then sells the old one only if it succeeded
15:04:29  <flitz> the creation and drawing of template vehicles gives me headaches though, as there are many things to check and make sure which is not possible if I only have engineIDs
15:05:59  <planetmaker> that's where creation of vehicles is also benefitial it seems :-)
15:06:32  <flitz> I tried that (at least for the drawing part) and failed :)
15:07:09  <flitz> one thing is that I don't know a tile to create a vehicle on in all generality, but maybe I don't need that (only if I want to use the cmd-functions)
15:07:50  <flitz> and then creating such a virtual train just for drawing a template (as like a whole list of them) is way too much overhead and produced some weird results
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15:08:26  <flitz> I draw my templates now via the GetRailIcon() function, like the depot-gui, but even that doesn't work 100%
15:09:14  <flitz> because I only get a full sprite from this function and cannot determine the actual vehicle length (in sprite terms) from that, whereas real vehicles can do a callback for that
15:10:06  <flitz> the UKRS2 sprites for example have a lot of blue fluff to the left and right of them and determing the size of the actual drawable stuff works through a callback again
15:10:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that won't work as soon as the vehicle defines custom sprites for the purchase list
15:10:34  <flitz> custom sprites like the UKRS2 set ?
15:10:43  <flitz> I'm using that as reference
15:11:46  <frosch123> try nars for an extreme version of purchase list sprites
15:11:50  <frosch123> s/nars/2cc"
15:11:59  * frosch123 sigh
15:13:11  <flitz> a lot of additional conditions for composing trains there ?
15:13:27  <frosch123> no idea, i do not usally play with it
15:15:42  <planetmaker> there are at least some like MU / not MU
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15:16:58  <flitz> I think for creating a template I will use a virtual train, that should be easiest, only the drawing part (when no virtual train is around) is still meh
15:17:51  <frosch123> AIs would be happy about test-mode train construction as well :)
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15:19:13  <flitz> maybe make it a more general thing ? ^^
15:23:41  <Eddi|zuHause> flitz: you can store the sprite-IDs from the virtual train in your template
15:24:48  <flitz> hand -> head *bang*
15:25:17  <flitz> Eddi: of course, thanks, could have thought of that already
15:29:45  <tulcod> i gave pathzilla 50 million pound, and it now has 209 road vehicles and 39 million pound. wat the heck?
15:31:00  <frosch123> what do you expect from some random guy, if you give him money?
15:31:57  <tulcod> well not that it magically disappears
15:32:03  <tulcod> i'd expect him to buy something useless
15:32:12  <tulcod> but pathzilla didn't even buy something useless
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15:32:28  <Eddi|zuHause> road construction?
15:32:39  <planetmaker> it's an AI ;-)
15:32:51  <planetmaker> not an AS :-P
15:33:01  <tulcod> and i don't understand all the fuss about rondje om de kerk, it doesn't seem to be making much more profit htan the other AIs
15:33:11  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: the differences are vague :p
15:33:14  <planetmaker> tulcod: it's a parasite
15:33:30  <tulcod> planetmaker: so i should build loads of crap first?
15:33:36  <planetmaker> no
15:33:52  <planetmaker> it waits for others to build the road an then uses that to compete with them there
15:33:58  <tulcod> .. wow...
15:34:09  <planetmaker> and kinda handling vehicles in a semi-cheat way
15:34:30  <tulcod> yeah, selling them on arrival, and then building a new depot at arrival to send the same vehicles back and sell them again
15:34:40  <tulcod> (cause that's what it's doing with bus stops)
15:35:58  <Eddi|zuHause> it makes more sense with trucks, because they don't need a way back at all
15:36:14  <tulcod> well yeah, and the advantage is... keeping the road free?
15:36:32  <Eddi|zuHause> that, and you constantly get the "new vehicle" bonus at the stations
15:36:35  <tulcod> pathzilla is down to 37 million btw
15:36:47  <tulcod> there's a new vehicle bonus? :P
15:36:53  <planetmaker> yes
15:37:20  <planetmaker> you'll find the details wrt station rating in the game mechanics page in the wiki
15:37:29  <planetmaker> thus maybe my knowledge is wrong ;-)
15:38:00  <Eddi|zuHause> the existence of google and wikipedia makes people forget things faster :p
15:38:20  <planetmaker> it does...
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15:40:16  <tulcod> does it? i forgot
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15:46:09  <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: you forgot facebook in the list
15:46:21  <frosch123> you do not have to remember what you did on the last party :p
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15:50:41  <LordAro> afternoonings
15:51:03  <LordAro> kvirc isn't working, so i'm on mibbit :(
15:52:26  <LordAro> Alberth: the readme viewer is progressing, but i need some help about malloc-ing and/or fread-ing. Hint?
15:53:11  <Alberth> is that not in some saved log of yours?
15:53:28  <Alberth> I seem to remember telling you how to do that, at least
15:53:28  <planetmaker> @log
15:53:43  <Alberth> lol
15:53:44  <LordAro> yes, but only mentioning that i need to use it, i've no idea how :L
15:53:58  <Eddi|zuHause> @logs
15:53:58  <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause:
15:54:04  <Rubidium> so... do I read it right, Apple releases another version of Mac OS X and again video stuff magically doesn't work anymore
15:54:29  <Alberth> I doubt it is by magic
15:54:33  <LordAro> Rubidium: of course :)
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15:56:14  <Eddi|zuHause> great, i swapped the template graphics, and get 40 thousand reports of pixels being white :p
15:56:21  <Alberth> LordAro: char *ptr = malloc(size);  if (fread(ptr, 1, size, fp) != size) { /* read error */ }
15:57:04  <Alberth> and free(ptr) after you're done with the data, of course
15:57:20  <LordAro> Alberth: ok, where does 'size', '1', or 'fp' come from?
15:57:43  <Rubidium> char *ptr = MallocT<char>(size) is better
15:57:56  <Alberth> Fio<something-I-forgot>()
15:58:04  <Alberth> Rubidium: good point
15:58:05  <Rubidium> fp is the file pointer you got when you opened the file
15:58:33  <Alberth> and 'size' is the size of the data
15:59:03  <LordAro> and where would i get that from? (sorry, haven't ot much idea about this have i? :) )
15:59:21  <Rubidium> i.e. size_t size; FILE *fp = FioFOpenFile(filename, "r", DATA_DIR, &size);
15:59:31  <LordAro> dammit, g2g in a min, carry on writing, and i'll get it from the logs
15:59:38  <LordAro> thanks Rubidium :)
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16:49:48  <andythenorth> hola
16:50:08  <flitz> aloha
17:00:50  <__ln__> solamente inglés
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17:06:43  <supermop>
17:07:05  <supermop> i want a cheese based industry set
17:09:21  <planetmaker> convert toyland into the land of milk and honey and you're set ;-)
17:09:48  <planetmaker> also... the only way you can die by cheese it trying to carry too much :-P
17:10:06  *** planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: tt
17:10:13  <planetmaker> arg
17:10:47  <Eddi|zuHause> need the old topic?
17:10:53  <planetmaker> how did I set the topic title? I've no idea
17:10:56  <planetmaker> yes
17:11:01  <perk11> and what if you eat stale cheese?
17:11:20  <perk11> 	The topic is '1.1.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only' (set by ChanServ!services@s on 28 ИюМь 2011 г. 16:56:32)
17:11:50  <__ln__> well 'tt' is short and straight to the point
17:11:51  *** planetmaker changed the topic of #openttd to: 1.1.1 | Website: * (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only
17:12:39  <planetmaker> thx, perk11
17:12:54  <supermop> cheese, beer, pickles, whiskey, more cheese
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17:20:51  <supermop> cheese mines, whiskey rig,
17:20:58  <supermop> pikle mill?
17:22:32  <flitz> "convert toyland into the land of milk and honey and you're set ;-)"    <<  is anybody actually playing toyland ?
17:22:42  * planetmaker is
17:22:45  <flitz> I always thought it just hurts the eyes too much :)
17:23:07  <Eddi|zuHause> that was true, until opengfx introduced less painful graphics
17:23:27  <flitz> will try again some time
17:24:31  <supermop> what would be the best way to represent cottage industry?
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17:25:45  <planetmaker> what industry would that be?
17:26:54  <supermop> in the early stages of the industrial revolution, much wool weaving was actually done in small batches in people's homes
17:27:28  <planetmaker> well, so you need to draw the typical rural 'industries'
17:27:43  <supermop> then collected, paid a certain rate, and shipped in bulk to cities or for export
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17:28:25  <supermop> well, I am wondering if a town set with some houses that produce tiny amounts of goods would make sense
17:29:03  <Eddi|zuHause> compare and
17:29:08  <Eddi|zuHause> flitz: ^
17:29:20  <supermop> consider the modern american microbrew, and later craft brew movement
17:29:43  <planetmaker> supermop: that all depends on cargo payment rates, vehicles etc
17:30:12  <supermop> where some beers are made in spaces no larger than a shop or restaurant, although they still seem some shipping and distribution across the country and around the world
17:30:26  <supermop> *see, not seem
17:30:55  <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: actually, in the above image, you see that the opengfx ship has wrong offset
17:30:58  <supermop> i always though of that sort of craft good as 'mail' in the TT world
17:32:19  <supermop> ie, if you order something direct from the producer and it comes via fedex or dhl
17:32:29  <supermop> that is sort of like the mail cargo
17:33:30  <supermop> so that 'craft' industry would exist in the backround of the 'heavy' industry that TT focuses on
17:34:52  <Eddi|zuHause> so what exactly is the issue now?
17:34:58  <supermop> but if i wanted a quaint set that excludes steel mills and coal mines, it might make sense to have distilleries, woodworkers, and other artisans
17:35:02  <supermop> nothing
17:35:37  <supermop> just wondering if it is better to have houses produce cargo, or just make very small industries that get built in towns
17:36:27  <planetmaker> houses come and go. Thus it's an unstable production site
17:36:43  <planetmaker> and a player could never found them
17:44:22  <supermop> yeah
17:44:27  <Eddi|zuHause> hm... movement looks slightly odd with the shorter wagons
17:44:35  <Eddi|zuHause> the turning point is not right ;)
17:45:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22683 /trunk/src/lang/italian.txt:
17:45:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
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17:49:50  <flitz> Eddi: "compare": yep, opengfx is definitely better
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18:03:24  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: it's not quite shorter wagons; the wagons will still be the same length. They just let the next wagon follow closer
18:03:46  <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i meant "shorter than one full tile" :p
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18:17:27  <michi_cc> frosch123: Where can I find which TTDPatch version r1816 corresponds to? Is that still 2.5 or are all rXXX 2.6?
18:20:47  <Rubidium> IIRC somewhere in the 2.6 alphas they got revisions, although...
18:21:30  <Rubidium> hmm, nope :(
18:21:50  <Rubidium> bbbb (build) SVN revision (from TTDPatch 2.5 beta 5 r418 on)
18:22:03  <Rubidium> nevertheless... just check
18:22:17  <Rubidium> it gets added to trunk, so it must be 2.6
18:22:23  <Rubidium> as 2.5 is in branch/2.5
18:22:27  <frosch123> michi_cc: tons of stuff was devoped in 2.5 branch and backported to trunk
18:22:32  <frosch123> there is no easy way to tell
18:23:39  <michi_cc> I'm going to assume 2.6 according to the log of Rb then
18:26:29  <frosch123> yeah, not much happened in 2.5 branch after r1816
18:27:22  <Rubidium> even then, if the commit is after 2.5b9 just say 2.6. That's more honest
18:30:45  <frosch123> also true
18:34:47  <Rubidium> gheheh...
18:35:03  <Rubidium> the download page still says Mac OS X 10.3-10.5 (universal build)
18:35:16  <Rubidium> I'd almost say that we should keep it that way
18:35:41  <Rubidium> and blame everyone with 10.6 or 10.7 that has bugs for using a version of OpenTTD not meant for their OS
18:36:15  <Chris_Booth> 10.6 doesn't work properly? snow leopard is old now
18:36:51  <peter1138> if only we had a mac-maintainer...
18:37:49  <frosch123> does 10.7 allow installing custom software?
18:38:07  <Chris_Booth> I think it does it still has access to the console ETC
18:38:14  <Chris_Booth> just comes with the app store aswell
18:38:29  <Chris_Booth> it also still supports steam so it must allow custom code to be run
18:54:10  <V453000> what does a cargo decay actually mean? That I get 0 money for delivery if it is going for too long or that some part of cargo gets lost during long travel?
18:54:34  <V453000> regarding
18:55:48  <frosch123> open the ingame graphs for income vs. traveltime
18:56:06  <frosch123> then image time running faster for the cargo in some conditions
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19:30:35  <planetmaker> Rubidium: we can call it with somewhat good concience 10.3 - 10.6 for what it's worth. But 10.7 definitely not
19:31:00  <planetmaker> After all 10.6 has not more bugs than the other versions.
19:32:40  <andythenorth> supermop: mod FIRS for cheese :P
19:32:51  <andythenorth> btw, DanMacK and I discussed early textile industry
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19:33:55  <andythenorth> ffs
19:34:06  <andythenorth> I have two wireless networks and 2 ADSL connections
19:34:09  <andythenorth> none are reliable
19:34:25  <Eddi|zuHause> you have to make them redundant
19:34:26  <andythenorth> can anyone recommend a decent wifi router?
19:34:43  <andythenorth> both of mine died recently
19:35:05  <andythenorth> in our office building, an apple wifi router goes three floors
19:35:13  <andythenorth> in my house it barely goes 8 feet
19:35:36  <tulcod> andythenorth: maybe power ethernet?
19:35:42  <andythenorth> ?
19:35:51  <andythenorth> my house is wired for ethernet ;)
19:36:02  <tulcod> so why are you on wireless?
19:36:34  <andythenorth> trailing a cable would be impractical for n minor reasons
19:37:15  * andythenorth wonders
19:37:22  <tulcod> andythenorth: okay, so maybe your pc's adapter is kinda shitty
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19:37:40  <andythenorth> are old cast iron radiators likely to be creating dead zones?
19:37:47  <tulcod> no
19:37:59  <tulcod> well, unless you're sitting behind them
19:38:03  <andythenorth> I am
19:38:04  <tulcod> but not like microwaves do
19:38:13  <tulcod> well then yes
19:38:16  <andythenorth> between me and the router is one wall
19:38:26  <andythenorth> but on either side of the wall, two radiators
19:38:33  <andythenorth> in line of sight between me and the wifi point
19:38:35  <tulcod> try 802.11n then, it's said to make use of relfection
19:38:45  <andythenorth> interesting
19:38:56  <tulcod> and then get a MIMO one while you're at it
19:40:06  <andythenorth> hmm
19:40:12  <andythenorth> the old router had two ariels
19:40:33  <andythenorth> that might explain better coverage, even though it was plain old 802.1g
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19:41:14  <andythenorth> the wifi is in a cupboard with the mains electricity switchboard, and a couple of transformer coils
19:41:20  <andythenorth> is that unhelpful?
19:41:59  <tulcod> meh
19:42:02  <tulcod> wouldn't matter much
19:42:22  <tulcod> so why not move your router?
19:42:47  <andythenorth> I moved it once to get better coverage
19:44:45  <andythenorth> I should just buy a proper router
19:45:21  <tulcod> a proper router won't penetrate a 3 inch metal wall
19:45:38  <andythenorth> yarp
19:46:03  <andythenorth> but then I can move the apple access point things back to where they should be for streaming music
19:46:12  <andythenorth> and stop relying on them for wifi
19:46:35  <andythenorth> and get a router with decent arials
19:46:45  <andythenorth> instead of whatever apple have put in a 3 inch white brick
19:48:21  <andythenorth> grrr
19:48:29  <planetmaker> you might just use a 'normal' router, andythenorth ;-)
19:49:09  <andythenorth> google tells me 'readers rate apple routers the most reliable and best overall'
19:49:13  * andythenorth disagrees
19:49:27  <Rubidium> tulcod: a proper router has the ability to connect antennae via cables, so you can put several antennae around the house for optimal coverage
19:49:49  <andythenorth> planetmaker: what's a 'normal' router?
19:50:04  <Eddi|zuHause> s/readers/fanatics/
19:51:08  <andythenorth> apparently not just fanatics
19:51:15  <andythenorth> the airport extreme has good reviews :(
19:51:30  <andythenorth> they also reliably die about 10 days after warranty expires
19:51:33  <andythenorth> mine did
19:52:40  <Eddi|zuHause> that is perfectly industry standard nowadays :p
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19:52:51  <Eddi|zuHause> don't need apple for that :p
19:53:14  <V453000> frosch123: thanks :) that is... interesting :)
19:56:30  * andythenorth looks at routers with removable antenna
19:56:40  <andythenorth> wonder if they could be extended via ethernet? :o
19:56:48  <andythenorth> it's just wires right?
19:57:37  <__ln__> it's called planned obsolescence
19:58:02  <andythenorth> it's also called 'apple will replace a known bad part for free if I go to an Apple store'
19:58:07  <andythenorth> but apple stores are sinister
19:58:22  <supermop> what would a cheese industry set be called? Cheese Users Replacement Development?
19:58:45  <andythenorth> Cracking Cheese Grommit
19:58:56  <andythenorth> it would probably be Aardman themed
19:59:03  <__ln__> supermop: Lunar Mining Corporation
19:59:26  <Eddi|zuHause> they would mine meat, obviously.
20:01:58  *** LordAro [] has joined #openttd
20:16:33  <supermop> just read about HSR crash in china
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20:23:40  <__ln__> how much coverage is the norway situation getting in US?
20:29:16  <Eddi|zuHause> "The Euro exchange rate is so bad for Switzerland, they start thinking about joining" <-- wth?
20:29:36  <andythenorth> did the US default on the dollar yet?
20:29:42  <andythenorth> that's going to be....interesting
20:29:51  <Eddi|zuHause> i thought they had something like 10 days left
20:29:59  <supermop> august 2nd
20:30:35  <LordAro> i agree, it's going to be very interesting when the world economy collapses...
20:30:42  <andythenorth> or when it doesn't
20:30:42  <supermop> thats not the day of a default, just the day that the debt reaches a limit we had told ourselves we wouldnt cross
20:31:03  <supermop> default or not happens separate from that
20:31:17  <supermop> when creditors do not get paid on time
20:31:18  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that's exactly a "default". the point where you have no more money to spend
20:31:19  <andythenorth> LordAro: if you rationally believe the economy will collapse...have you bought gold?
20:31:25  <supermop> no
20:31:41  <andythenorth> the default happens when the first payments aren't met
20:31:43  <andythenorth> yes/no?
20:31:48  <supermop> default is when you borrow money, then say "oh, we actually will not be paying that part back"
20:31:48  <Eddi|zuHause> yes
20:32:08  <supermop> the debt ceiling has nothing to do with paymets
20:32:14  <LordAro> andythenorth: it's certainly worth thinking about, at least removing your money from a bank :L
20:32:33  <andythenorth> LordAro: do you think everyone should remove their money from banks?
20:32:44  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: you wouldn't talk about raising the debt limit, if there were no payments to be met
20:33:01  <LordAro> up to them, i'm no economist
20:33:03  <supermop> those payments are not to the creditors
20:33:12  <supermop> those are to things like the army
20:33:25  <andythenorth> LordAro: what happens if everyone removes their money from banks? :D
20:33:37  <andythenorth> supermop: won't the first step be a federal govt shutdown?
20:33:48  <supermop> not likely
20:33:57  <LordAro> oh, right. world economy collapses :)
20:34:09  <supermop> probably money will be borrowed under an emergency executive order
20:34:24  <Eddi|zuHause> we should have bank runs more often :p
20:34:34  <LordAro> i love all this positive thinking :p
20:34:47  <Eddi|zuHause> so the banks actually realize that it's a possibility
20:34:51  <supermop> which will be politically very bad,
20:35:06  <supermop> and hurt one of the parties at the next election
20:35:18  <supermop> depending on who best frames the other as responsible
20:35:33  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: how is that going to change anything?
20:35:36  <andythenorth> supermop: the impression from here - in the serious press - is that nobody realised quite how serious the Tea Party movement were about destroying the federal govt
20:35:38  <planetmaker> but the realization that the state will cover the debt, as they're too big to fail doesn't help either in the end
20:36:05  <andythenorth> it seems that a default + shutdown of Federal Govt is exactly what Tea Partiers are seeking
20:36:11  <supermop> the last times the republicans tried to force a shut down it destroyed their party leadership for about 3 years
20:36:30  <supermop> the tea parties are still not that large, but
20:36:39  <LordAro> "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." -- Winston Churchill
20:36:50  <supermop> at this point the republicans have become reliant on them for political identity
20:37:24  <supermop> the most important voting blocs are still non aligned moderates
20:37:27  <andythenorth> what will happen to the political right in the US if the dollar collapses as the world's reserve currency?
20:37:29  * andythenorth has no clue
20:37:38  <supermop> they wont care
20:37:56  <supermop> the far right don't see any currency other than gold as having value
20:38:07  <andythenorth> gold, guts, and guns :P
20:38:17  <supermop> as to default
20:38:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it's a race whether the euro or the dollar go down first
20:38:41  <Eddi|zuHause> the other will see a big shift in cash flow
20:38:53  <supermop> that hapes when treasury bonds mature and the owners do not get their money back
20:38:58  <Eddi|zuHause> and everything will be fine for the next 20 years
20:39:10  <Eddi|zuHause> or it'll look like a mad max movie. whatever.
20:39:37  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: but that happens all the time
20:39:42  <supermop> basically default is less about policemen not getting paid, and more about china losing out on its investment
20:39:51  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: it's a more or less continuous process
20:39:56  <supermop> which causes china to not want to buy our bonds any more
20:40:36  <Eddi|zuHause> it's not like it's china's fault
20:41:15  <supermop> is it your fault if you buy stock in a company that is going out of business?
20:41:46  <Eddi|zuHause> no, as long as every rating agency ever gave it an AAA+++ rating
20:42:06  * andythenorth wonders if the Renminbi will become reserve currency :P
20:42:08  <Eddi|zuHause> "there is no possible scenario ever that wou won't get your money back"
20:42:22  <supermop> not idf it does not appreciate to correct value andy
20:42:44  <supermop> people with current T-notes are still getting their money back
20:42:47  <supermop> but
20:42:53  <supermop> that could change
20:43:13  <supermop> not over night on august 2nd, but over the course of a few months
20:43:45  <andythenorth> someone should send the rogue republicans a wikipedia artilce
20:43:48  <andythenorth> article /s
20:43:55  <andythenorth>
20:44:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd send you but it's in german
20:44:57  <supermop> andy:
20:44:58  <supermop>
20:45:07  <supermop> they would read that instead
20:45:26  <Eddi|zuHause>
20:47:23  <andythenorth> it's rare that you mean an Andrew who doesn't have strong and bizarre opinions
20:47:29  <andythenorth> mean / meet /s
20:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> s/an Andrew/any person/
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20:56:41  <LordAro> conservapedia really is very funny :)
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21:00:03  <Eddi|zuHause> err... "teacher of homeschooling classes" <-- that sounds like an oxymoron
21:01:12  * andythenorth makes boats
21:07:45  <supermop> i had an idea for boats last night, but now i have forgotten
21:11:26  <__ln__> are there plans for mines underwater?  (i don't mean a naval mine but ore mining)
21:12:30  <supermop> rare earths in sea mud?
21:12:57  <__ln__> exactly
21:14:06  <andythenorth> dunno
21:14:14  <andythenorth> but I want to add a dredger to HEQS
21:15:28  <Terkhen> good night
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