Log for #openttd on 15th August 2011:
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02:42:53  <Pikka> orudge what have you done to pikkawiki
02:43:06  <Pikka>
02:45:06  <Pikka> apparently it is a bug in certain versions of PHP, did you change it?
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04:34:55  <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: maybe the params for statically building the generic binaries is missing
04:35:28  <Rubidium> but well... don't have time to look at that now
04:37:30  <Rubidium> though I hoped some had found it in the month of RCs
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05:51:08  <planetmaker> moin
06:02:30  <pjpe> you missed a day
06:02:33  <pjpe> didn't say it yesterday
06:02:34  <pjpe> >:|
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06:52:42  <orudge> Pikka: do you not read the news forum, eh?
06:52:51  <orudge> it has been upgraded to PHP 5.3
06:52:53  <Pikka> no I do not
06:52:54  <Pikka> oh
06:52:57  <orudge> if you've not updated your wiki in about two years, that may be why
06:53:03  <Pikka> I guess that may be the problem
06:53:17  <Pikka> I will have to dig out how to upgrade the wiki, what a bother
06:53:21  <orudge> well
06:53:25  <orudge> it's relatively straightforward
06:53:35  <orudge> I can potentially do it for you later if you wish
06:53:44  <Pikka> I potentially wish
06:53:57  <orudge> mainly because it's arguably easier for me to just wget the new version, replace the config file, wham bam thank you stan
06:54:10  <Pikka> it is, it is
06:54:25  <Pikka> up to the point where it falls over in a heap, at least :)
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08:52:36  <Terkhen> good morning
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08:55:25  <Rubidium> moin Terkhen
08:55:41  <Rubidium> oooh... even early frosch123 ;)
08:55:44  <Rubidium> quak!
08:57:46  <frosch123> moin rubidium :)
08:58:01  <frosch123> can someone read the footnote on xkcd?
09:00:15  <planetmaker> the * NEJn, Aug 10, 2011?
09:00:52  <planetmaker> maybe it's a T instead of a J
09:00:54  <planetmaker> dunno
09:01:17  <frosch123> "Northeast Environmental Justice Network (NEJN)"?
09:01:36  <Rubidium> New England Journal of Medicine?
09:01:54  <frosch123> sounds more plausible
09:02:04  <planetmaker> n like medicine?
09:02:19  <frosch123> it could be a M
09:04:06  <planetmaker> hm, likely: "original articles
09:04:06  <planetmaker> Prevention of HIV-1 Infection with Early Antiretroviral Therapy"
09:04:09  <Rubidium> I just searched for some keywords with that date and they refered to that
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09:50:45  <Pikka> <- has he got the wrong version, or is something more sinister afoot?
09:53:30  <frosch123> the compile farm is new, maybe just noone tested the rcs
09:53:43  <frosch123> the linux-generic builds do not work either since noone tested them :p
09:53:50  <Pikka> hooray :)
09:54:16  <Pikka> well 32-bit win7 works, I'm pleased to say :P
09:54:41  <frosch123> well, that should be the same binary he should have used
09:55:06  <Terkhen> unless he downloaded the 64bit version :)
09:55:09  <planetmaker> maybe the CF now compiles for i686 instead of i386 or something
09:55:17  <planetmaker> and he has a cpu unsupported by that
09:55:50  <planetmaker> but I was always scared of compiling on windows ;-)
09:55:51  <frosch123> anyway, windows builds are totally unknown to me :) recently i was told there is an option in the installer to not install language packs
09:55:59  <frosch123> while i was blaming people they deleted them :p
09:56:04  <planetmaker> :-O there is?!
09:56:17  * Pikka has never seen the installer so I wouldn't know
09:56:17  <frosch123> planetmaker: no idea, someone said that
09:58:55  <Rubidium> frosch123: the generic binaries will work... if you got the right libraries loaded; they just didn't get statically linked into the binary
09:59:20  <Rubidium> yes, the windows installer allows you to not install the translations
09:59:59  <Rubidium> anyhow, on windows compiler wise it went from vs2008 to vs2010
10:00:09  <Rubidium> but that should cause any problem as far as I know
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10:14:30  <michi_cc> Rubidium:
10:15:19  <michi_cc> VS 2010 seems to write OS version 5.02 to the exe file which Windows 2000 won't read.
10:15:51  <michi_cc> And for more fun:
10:16:27  <michi_cc> Openttd.exe now binds to EncodePointer from kernel32.dll which was only added in Windows XP SP2
10:18:07  <Terkhen> oh :(
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10:21:14  <michi_cc> You should be able to change the version to 5.00 using the linker setting "MinimumRequiredVersion" (didn't test it though), but that won't help with the missing EncodePointer
10:21:34  <planetmaker> how "nice"
10:26:48  <michi_cc> So unless you recompile the CRT lib or do some hacky hacks by providing stubs for EncodePointer/DecodePointer (which might break whatever is depending on them) Visual Studio 2010 is Windows XP SP2 or later only.
10:27:29  <michi_cc> If somebody wants to have a go: :)
10:34:12  <Terkhen> it might be simpler to compile a different version with mingw, although messy regarding what version to download
10:36:39  <michi_cc> Even simply would probably be to just revert to using VS 2008
10:37:22  <Terkhen> that too :P
10:49:15  <Rubidium> michi_cc: so we'd just change the installer and website saying it's for XP/Vista/7 and not mention 2000
10:51:17  <Rubidium> michi_cc: if simply includes reinstalling the windows VM, then yes... it's simply that ;(
10:51:40  <Rubidium> for varying levels of simply ofcourse
10:53:05  <Rubidium> in my opinion it would be easier to let 2000 users use the 9x binary (or let them compile themselves if they really need unicode)
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11:01:10  * Terkhen agrees
11:01:18  <Terkhen> 2000 is old enough to put it in the same basket than 95/98
11:03:43  <__ln__> than or as or with
11:07:01  <Eddi|zuHause> "alswie"
11:07:58  <__ln__> how many 2000 users do "we" have anyway?
11:08:45  <Eddi|zuHause> apparently more than OS/2 and MorpOS users combined...
11:10:41  <planetmaker> those crowds...
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11:24:44  <Terkhen> bbl
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11:40:40  <Eddi|zuHause>
11:41:31  <MNIM> muh. don't think Ill be able to guess the bottom one.
11:48:55  <Sc00by22> IE
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12:40:03  <Coke> Is there any way to tell my grf (through nml) that it does not affect any saved data or server/client compatibility? (it's just an UI change)
12:40:25  <Coke> (saved data = savegame)
12:41:25  <planetmaker> indirectly
12:41:42  <Eddi|zuHause> no, but you can tell openttd to try treat it as such by inserting it into the [newgrf-static] section
12:41:44  <planetmaker> you may only use the replace and replace_new commands to bring sprites into the game
12:42:06  <planetmaker> and then what eddi said
12:42:46  <Coke> ive added a paremeter and a big if containing replace
12:42:57  <Coke> in the else is another replace, but it doesnt seem to work properly
12:43:18  <planetmaker> static newgrfs can only be added in the openttd.cfg
12:43:22  <planetmaker> there's no gui interface
12:44:46  <Coke> im trying to find info on how to change the ui in nml
12:45:05  <Coke> ive added a parameter to the grf, but it'd be nice to have a toggle in ui
12:45:43  <Eddi|zuHause> in the "grf" section, you need to put "param" sections
12:45:56  <Coke> like I said, I've already added the parameter
12:46:01  <Coke> but I want it in the in-game UI
12:46:08  <Coke> preferrably under "transparency" options
12:46:17  <planetmaker> you can add a newgrf as static, or not
12:46:27  <planetmaker> there is no UI. nothing you can do via grf about that
12:46:42  <Coke> but I have a big gui grf installed that doubles the size of the icons
12:46:43  <planetmaker> yes, it'd be nice to have a static section in the newgrf GUI
12:46:47  <planetmaker> yes
12:46:55  <planetmaker> that would work (also) as static one
12:47:06  <planetmaker> but of course it overwrites the same sprites ;-)
12:47:17  <Coke> but no way to add an extra icon in the transparency menu?
12:47:19  <Eddi|zuHause> i think you want something totally different than you say you want.
12:47:26  <planetmaker> if you load your grf later
12:47:46  <Coke> no, I want an option (like making station names transparent or invisible) for my own setting
12:47:54  <planetmaker> Coke, modifying the *layout* of the GUI is not a newgrf task
12:48:00  <Eddi|zuHause> that cannot be done by grf
12:48:04  <Coke> ok.
12:48:20  <Coke> is it possible in any way to change a grf variable in game from user actions?
12:48:24  <planetmaker> bigGUI also has not such option. It's either active or not
12:48:29  <planetmaker> no
12:48:33  <Coke> ok. nevermind then.
12:48:35  <planetmaker> only when starting a new game
12:49:05  <planetmaker> I'm afraid that that also will never be possible. Except maybe for static newgrfs
12:49:09  <Coke> is it better to make many small png's or just use one big? does openttd reuse a loaded png if it's mentioned several times in one grf?
12:49:36  <planetmaker> that depends on the newgrf compiler
12:49:44  <planetmaker> openttd uses the images as found in the grf
12:49:52  <Coke> what does nmlc do?
12:49:54  <planetmaker> it's not aware of what the sprite actually shows
12:50:03  <planetmaker> nmlc... might do one or the other.
12:50:07  <Coke> hehe.
12:50:08  <planetmaker> it depends on the situation
12:50:13  <Coke> i'll just make smaller ones
12:55:08  <Coke> hm, looks from the authors gfx reference that the pre signals only range from 47-48
12:55:08  <Eddi|zuHause> "Whether i can remember the construction of the wall? for sure! and i will never forgive Hadrian for that!" (Jopie Heesters)
12:55:19  <Coke> what does it include?
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12:56:09  <Coke> no id's for individual pre signal sprites?
12:56:21  <planetmaker> uhm... ?
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12:56:34  <planetmaker> some signals might be "new" sprites
12:56:52  <planetmaker> Probably all new signal sprites must be replaced at once
12:56:56  <Coke> i think those are. im looking at the opengfx extra
12:57:03  <Coke> oh
12:57:05  <planetmaker> then it's new
12:57:13  <Coke> i wonder what the 47 and 48 stands for
12:57:17  <Coke> there are three types.
12:57:24  <Coke> two baked into one? which one?
12:57:39  <michi_cc> Rubidium: I don't have a Windows 2000 around to test, but should do the trick (and the resulting exe does work on my Win 7).
12:58:21  <planetmaker> Coke, I still don't know which file you look at...
13:00:40  <planetmaker> <-- you may want to look at that, too
13:01:15  <Belugas> hello
13:01:19  <planetmaker> hi Belugas
13:01:29  <Belugas> sir planetmaker :)
13:01:36  <Belugas> i salute you
13:02:32  <Coke> planetmaker: what do you mean?
13:03:02  <planetmaker> I mean you talk of *some numbers* in *some file* without context - and expect others to make sense of it
13:03:40  <planetmaker> if you expect answers, you need to link the code you talk about.
13:05:20  <planetmaker> or if not link, then paste
13:05:35  <planetmaker> (in a paste service, not here. Allow for some context)
13:08:51  <Coke> are the path block new or old?
13:09:35  <planetmaker> new
13:09:45  <planetmaker> only the very boring block signals are old
13:10:23  <Coke> hm. 48 sprites in pre_signals
13:10:34  <Coke> that's three signals, i dont think block path is in it
13:10:43  <Coke> think it's entry, exit and combo, no?
13:10:57  <planetmaker> as the name says: _pre_ signals. Not path signals
13:11:08  <Coke> so what type is used to replace the path block signal if it's new?
13:11:32  <Coke> theres one called PRE_SIGNAL_SEMAPHORE_PBS, but im not working with semaph's
13:13:52  <planetmaker> PRE_SIGNAL_SEMAPHORE_PBS
13:14:04  <planetmaker> means you got them all
13:14:29  <planetmaker> @calc (1+3+2)*8*2
13:14:29  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 96
13:14:45  <planetmaker> @calc (1+3+2)*8*2*2
13:14:45  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 192
13:14:50  <planetmaker> I obviously miss some
13:16:03  <Coke> when I look at the graphics files there are only path and path one way in a single png
13:16:53  <planetmaker> doesn't mean that a single sprite block only references a single png
13:18:11  <planetmaker> read the source code... sprites/nfo/extra/extra-signals.pnfo
13:18:33  <Coke> i did
13:18:41  <Coke> but what type to use? with normal replace I just put the start ID
13:19:49  <planetmaker> As said before... use replace_new and the PRE_SIGNAL_SEMAPHORE_PBS
13:20:18  <planetmaker> i.e. you need to replace ALL signals, iirc
13:20:22  <planetmaker> which is 240 sprites
13:21:32  <Coke> hm. most of those are unused or toyland
13:21:47  <Coke> i just need to replace the default pbs and presignals
13:22:15  <planetmaker> <planetmaker> i.e. you need to replace ALL signals, iirc. Or no signal replacement
13:22:35  <Coke> yeah i know. that sort of sucks since the old system is more versatile
13:23:08  <planetmaker> Oh, the new system allows you to replace the "new" sprites also with an offsets. But signals are old ;-)
13:23:28  <planetmaker> but still require replace_new :-P
13:24:24  <Coke> if you could add length/size along with that offset it'd be great
13:25:42  <Coke> i'll just abandon my little project. works nice with block signals, but meh
13:26:57  <Coke> wanted to make some new vehicles, but someone already made my favourite trains. :P
13:27:25  <Hirundo> offsets are unfortunately only supported for the newest replacenew-block types, it's a limitation of the specs
13:28:11  <planetmaker> "weil niemand in den Urwald zog. und die Specs dort grade bog"
13:28:40  <Coke> Bog!
13:28:58  <Hirundo> @topic -1
13:28:58  <DorpsGek> Hirundo: topic [<channel>]
13:29:01  <Coke> To sink, as into a bog; to submerge in a bog; to cause to sink and stick, as in mud and mire.
13:29:10  <planetmaker> @topic get -1
13:29:10  <DorpsGek> planetmaker: English only
13:29:13  <planetmaker> ^^ Hirundo  ;-)
13:29:20  <Hirundo> indeed :P
13:29:20  <planetmaker> and that's why I put it into quotes
13:29:30  <planetmaker> it's not translatable
13:29:33  <planetmaker> I'm afraid
13:29:41  <Coke> yeah i found an english word "bog" :)
13:29:52  <planetmaker> no word there is English :-P
13:29:59  <Coke> so, do you guys play trains only?
13:31:02  <Coke> (sometimes)
13:31:25  <Coke> how do you guys gauge the value of distance vs time? say, in temperate climate
13:31:38  <planetmaker> I don't care
13:31:44  <planetmaker> but if I did, there's a price chart ingame
13:31:46  <Coke> is there a way to calculate speed per square?
13:31:52  <Coke> (from km/h or similar)
13:32:16  <Hirundo> I make sure my first lines make a profit (based on past experience) and afterwards money is no issue
13:32:59  <Coke> Yeah i usually do that too, but some of the more difficult train sets have speed limits as low as 45 km/h making the long runs less profitable
13:33:39  <Hirundo> When choosing locations for drop stations, I tend to be more concerned with dividing traffic evenly across the map
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13:34:48  <Coke> one problem ive run into is the masII ore car (swedish trains) only does 50km/h so I have to constantly make quadruple rails to get the faster steel trains going
13:35:22  <planetmaker> use waypoints
13:35:22  <Coke> same for coal, making my normal daily bread a lot less profitable
13:35:25  <Coke> I do
13:35:37  <Coke> but quadruple rails cost twice as much as the dual ones :P
13:35:50  <Coke> i usually use them for starter cash
13:36:01  <michi_cc> Coke: A vehicle running 128 km/h takes 16 ticks per tile on the diagonal (one game day has 74 ticks).
13:36:17  <Coke> michi_cc: hmmm. math... eew
13:36:54  <Coke> so 1/8th tile is one km
13:36:59  <Coke> exactly.
13:37:11  <planetmaker> uhm... ?
13:38:09  <Coke> hey. these trains aren't to scale ;)
13:38:37  <michi_cc> If you want to be really correct: it's actually 128 km/h-ish, with km/h-ish being mph/1.6, so not exactly km/h
13:38:55  <Coke> michi_cc: what are the exact numbers in mph?
13:38:56  <michi_cc> s/mph/1.6/mph*1.6/
13:39:04  <Coke> and is one mile 1.6 km in game?
13:39:40  <Coke> (flat, that is)
13:40:03  <Ammler> didn't he just tell you that?
13:40:12  <Coke> im not sure if he's rounding it.
13:40:26  <Ammler> does that matter? :-)
13:40:43  <Coke> im not sure yet, haven't put any real numbers in.
13:41:23  <planetmaker> Coke, you need to calculate the ingame scale from velocity and time
13:41:32  <planetmaker> which gives you around 600km/tile ;-)
13:41:42  <michi_cc> 16 ticks per tile at 128 internal speed units. 1 mph == 1.6 internal speed units == 1.609344 km/h
13:42:00  <Coke> ill just use the full number
13:46:46  <Eddi|zuHause> <Coke> hey. these trains aren't to scale ;) <-- is your alternate name "Captain Obvious" by any chance? :p
13:49:55  <Coke> hmm.
13:49:59  <MNIM> hahahaha
13:50:10  <MNIM> No, really?
13:50:19  <Coke> For some reason the bomb explosion sprite remains.
13:50:32  <Coke> There's an orange ball of flames which is shown even if quit/load
13:50:53  <MNIM> Nah, I think Coke's real name is Tuvok.
13:52:06  <Coke> Hm, normally being called a vulcan would be an honour, but Tuvok...
13:52:34  <Sc00by22> Is there an RSS feed for the svn repo?
13:52:50  <MNIM> hahahaha. trekkies... :P
13:53:01  * MNIM points at DorpsGek
13:54:34  <planetmaker> dorpsgek is no RSS
13:55:23  <planetmaker> but... did you try clicking on the RSS button on the vcs page, Sc00by22 ?
13:55:28  <planetmaker>
13:55:42  <Sc00by22> didn't know about that
13:55:43  <Sc00by22> thanks
13:55:46  <MNIM> He isn't, but he does notify you of the rss feed on irc
13:57:13  <Coke> Hmm. Anyone else had the bug of the explosion sprites lingering?
13:57:49  <MNIM> Coke: changed any newgrfs in-game per chance?
14:00:43  <Coke> i removed them all and deleted my .openttd directory
14:01:08  <planetmaker> that doesn't unfix a messed-up savegame
14:01:13  <planetmaker> when changing newgrfs in-game
14:01:38  <Coke> yeah.
14:01:59  <Coke> it was a config setting of starting the game in paused mode XD
14:02:10  <Coke> dunno why, must have been drunk when changing it.
14:02:16  <Coke> never use pause
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14:15:56  <mosi|work> anyone know if there is a way to disable antennas/transmitters/light houses on server map generation?
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14:19:31  <Eddi|zuHause> make a scenario?
14:19:55  <mosi|work> it's running on a headless linux server
14:20:23  <mosi|work> dont really wana have to make a new scenario each time and load it every reset
14:20:24  <Eddi|zuHause> make scenario on the client, move it to server
14:20:54  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really remember if there ever was such a setting
14:21:01  <Terkhen> maybe it is possible to create a NewGRF for that
14:21:06  <Terkhen> I don't remember such a setting
14:21:29  <Eddi|zuHause> it should be fairly easy to patch the game to skip this step
14:22:20  <mosi|work> never looked into actually making a NewGRF. might take a look later on though
14:23:33  <planetmaker> Terkhen, iirc not... though there's a slim chance that htey can be overridden as newobject. But I think not
14:23:56  <mosi|work> there is one to replace them with rocks
14:24:10  <mosi|work> but that still places them which is the main problem as they are totally unmoveable
14:24:38  <Terkhen> planetmaker: isn't it possible to create a object NewGRF that reduces their probabilities to zero or something like that?
14:25:02  <planetmaker> not sure. IFF one can re-define the default two or three objects: then yes
14:25:10  <Eddi|zuHause> mosi|work: the question is, why is that really a problem?
14:25:31  <mosi|work> they are just annoying, running a server for me and a few clan mates and nobody likes them :P
14:25:46  <mosi|work> doing some teraforming and they always get in the way
14:26:56  <planetmaker> but last time I looked... I couldn't attach an action 2/3 to them
14:28:20  <Terkhen> changing the introduction date and end of life properties should do the trick
14:28:35  <Terkhen> I don't know if it is possible to do that for the default objects though
14:29:56  <planetmaker> "In action 0, you only specify IDs relative to the set"
14:30:02  <planetmaker> and no override property
14:31:57  <Terkhen> hmm... so you can't modify or disable the original objects?
14:32:34  <planetmaker> yup
14:34:05  <Terkhen> there should be a way
14:35:03  <planetmaker> would mean to add an override property, I guess
14:35:21  <planetmaker> and possibly a property or flag "place on map generation"
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14:39:38  <Wolf01> hello
14:40:40  <Terkhen> hi Wolf01
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15:31:45  <Coke> Is it weird if you listen to 8 hours of 8-bit era only music per day?
15:32:22  <Coke> That is 64 of some undefined unit. 8-bit hours?
15:33:49  <Coke> Anyway. :) I'm looking at timetables to space out my trains, if two trains pull up to the same station at the same time (multitrack station), will they remain n days during the same period or in sequence?
15:34:38  <Coke> Is there a neeter way of spreading them out?
15:34:54  <frosch123> Coke: 8 bit represent 256 values, not 64
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15:42:59  <alexlivingstone> hello
15:43:07  <KittenKoder> Hello
15:48:01  <Coke> frosch123: i meant 8 hours of 8 bits
15:48:30  <Coke> im quite a binary guy coming from a decade of assembler programming
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15:51:53  <Coke> if i set the startdate in the timetable, say, week 1 in january, week 2 and 3, then add a 7 day stop, those three trains should be spaced out by 7 day intervals?
15:52:05  <KittenKoder> 1. overthinking something does not make you look smart, and 2. 64 does not fit into what you were saying at all.
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15:54:07  <Coke> 8 * 8 = 64
15:54:18  <KittenKoder> But 8 bit != 8
15:54:24  <Coke> 8 hours of 8 bits are 64 bit hours
15:54:33  <Coke> I think youre the one overthinking.
15:54:40  <Coke> It was a joke, albeit bad.
15:55:52  <KittenKoder> Timetables are not offsets.
15:56:46  <KittenKoder> Basic explanation for them:
15:57:17  <KittenKoder> Though road vehicles do not behave all the time because of the roads changing more, trains are more reliable and this technique works well.
16:00:41  <Pinkbeast> Coke> Some patchpacks have automatic seperation for timetables, which sometimes works well and sometimes very badly
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16:01:22  <supermop> hey
16:01:26  <Terkhen> hi supermop
16:01:28  <Eddi|zuHause> Coke: timetables have a startdate and a roundtrip time. whenever the first station is reached, the roundtrip time is added to the startdate
16:01:36  <planetmaker> salut supermop
16:01:38  <supermop> so i never use conditional orders,
16:01:40  <supermop> but
16:01:49  <Eddi|zuHause> so if you have a roundtrip time of 30 days, and 3 vehicles, you should set the start date for each vehicle 10 days apart
16:01:53  <supermop> I thought of something it would be cool if they could do
16:02:14  <Pinkbeast> Not even for servicing?
16:02:15  <supermop> 'go to order 1 is time is x'
16:02:19  <supermop> or
16:02:20  <Eddi|zuHause> so the first vehicle you set to 10th january, the second to 20th january, and the third to 30th january
16:02:36  <Pinkbeast> Eddi> Doesn't this mess up using shared orders?
16:02:49  <supermop> go to order 1 if number of cycles is less than x
16:02:56  <KittenKoder> Actually, shared orders make it easier.
16:02:58  <supermop> but that would require vehicle to count
16:02:59  <Eddi|zuHause> Pinkbeast: why would it?
16:03:23  <Pinkbeast> Hang on, I'm firing up OTTD to check what I mean...
16:03:44  <supermop> bassically these are ideas to save me from having 100 + orders to timetable for my trains that run a 24 hour schedule
16:04:16  <KittenKoder> o.O 24 hour schedule?
16:04:56  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: instead of shouting out random idea-fractions, you might want to make a full plan what the feature should look like
16:04:58  <supermop> i dont know if i told anyone here i was doing that, but i had my computer freeze (due to something else, not ottd) while working on one tram line
16:05:52  <supermop> and then lost hours of work on that, (my fault wasnt autosaving because the game was paused while i worked all that out)
16:06:45  <Coke> Eddi|zuHause: thanks.
16:06:58  <supermop> KittenKoder: I use the 24hr departure board patch, and then set my vehicles to follow those 'days'
16:07:10  <Pinkbeast> What I'd like in orders is "go to depot and wait until condition is true" and a condition for "n platforms free at station X"
16:07:18  <KittenKoder> Oh, a patch thing, don't know much about those.
16:07:29  <Eddi|zuHause> Coke: the startdate is the arrival time at the first station, not the departure date
16:07:53  <supermop> so that a tram leaves a yard and goes into service at say, 5:30 am, and runs until midnight or so,
16:08:18  <supermop> in the mean time it is making several round trips of its route
16:09:01  <supermop> but in order to get the behavior i want, the timetable needs to be 1440 minutes long
16:09:24  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: well, you could set your service interval to 24h
16:09:34  <Eddi|zuHause> and use "if needs servicing" order
16:10:00  <supermop> thats good for service, but does not let me keep it parked during the middle of the night
16:10:23  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: "if needs servicing, goto depot, go to waiting area, go to first order"
16:11:06  <supermop> what if 24 hours goes by and it doesnt want to service?
16:11:45  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: service interval should be 24h minus time it takes to get to the depot
16:12:05  <KittenKoder> I haven't tried, but can't you set a timetable count to "go to depot" orders like station loading?
16:12:13  <Eddi|zuHause> (which should be less than a full round trip
16:12:39  <Eddi|zuHause> KittenKoder: nope, you cannot tell a vehicle to wait inside the depot for X time
16:12:45  <supermop> would i risk having it go to the depot too early?
16:12:46  <KittenKoder> Okay.
16:13:33  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: only if you deviate too much from the timetable, or send the vehicle to depot manually
16:13:39  <supermop> hm
16:14:08  <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'm gone
16:14:56  <KittenKoder> laters
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16:15:43  <supermop> the other idea would be to have vehicles that run different routes at different times of day, eg a night bus, where one bus takes on extra stops at night, so that one route does the work of two or three day routes
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16:41:13  <Coke> supermop: but a night is so short. 2s = one day, no?
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16:41:53  <supermop> depends
16:42:14  <supermop> with the departure board patch default settings
16:42:20  <KittenKoder> Time mod patches can alter that.
16:42:57  <supermop> you get about 24 'hours' over 3 calendar 'years'
16:43:29  <supermop> the 'years' are going by just as fast as normal
16:43:54  <Pinkbeast> Coke> You're thinking of the day that goes to make a financial year, but the departure board patch has a separate clock that runs from 0000 to 2400 over about an ingame month or three
16:44:11  <supermop> but i get an extra clock giving 24 hour time not directly related to the years
16:44:41  <supermop> which makes timetabling much, much, morre intuitive
16:45:01  <KittenKoder> Wait .... was the chimera added to the 2cc base set or is the add-on a "special" version?
16:45:52  <planetmaker> it is part of modern versions iirc
16:45:55  <KittenKoder> Because with both the add-on and the base set I now have to Chimera .... different stats, same time and country though.
16:46:16  <KittenKoder> Aaah ... so the add-on is really no longer needed unless you want to different versions.
16:46:20  * Belugas never plays with timetable.
16:46:31  <supermop> kitten, you are working on monorail style maglevs?
16:46:46  <KittenKoder> supermop, you mean my track?
16:47:05  <Pinkbeast> I have no interest in writing timetables, but I like separation for pax/mail vehicles. I'd _like_ separation that works, but that may be a while off.
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16:47:37  <supermop> Belugas: I never would have expected it, but the very very technical micromanagment i am causing for myself has given me my most fun game in years
16:47:56  <KittenKoder> The maglev track I created is designed with the monorail style maglevs in mind, yes.
16:48:13  <KittenKoder> The 2cc ones look really nice on it.
16:48:32  <supermop> i think it comes from being in awe of (or sometimes incredibly frustrated by) the coordination of the New York Subway ever since I moved here
16:49:38  <KittenKoder> Different aspects of TT games will attract different player types, the number of aspects available is probably why it's persisted for so long.
16:49:40  <Belugas> well, as long as your boat keeps on floating ;)
16:49:40  <supermop> personally i'd like to make a set that had Alweg style monorails, monorail maglevs like transrapid, and channel maglevs like JR in it
16:50:15  <Pinkbeast> Koder> True, but I do think trying to imitate prototypical operations is a hard row to furrow...
16:50:22  <supermop> Belugas: I am also limiting myself to one depot only
16:50:44  <KittenKoder> supermop, I am working on a sci-fi set, which will need different track styles, so if you are interested in seeing more variety in maglevs without losing the balance, I am open to suggestions.
16:50:56  * Belugas might be from the old school, which would explain ;)
16:51:48  <KittenKoder> Pinkbeast, realism in a game like TT is very difficult, at best you can get some realism, but yeah, the micromanagement in reality is difficult to do in the game.
16:51:48  <supermop> ive been playing since 94 (only tto, never ttd), so i eventually burnt out on my old styles of play
16:52:28  <KittenKoder> I personally like to lay in a decent network then let trains fly and watch most of the time.
16:52:42  <KittenKoder> LOL Usually I only actually "play" until 1990.
16:52:48  <Pinkbeast> Koder> I think the real killer is the time-and-distance scales. It's always tricky to build prototypical junctions when trains are about 8 miles long
16:53:04  <supermop> 1994 as in the year TTO came out
16:53:31  <supermop> and I bought it with money I saved up instead of spending on Legos
16:53:56  * KittenKoder was too old for Legos by 94
16:54:10  <supermop> maybe if you mean 2094
16:54:23  <KittenKoder> No, 1994
16:54:31  <supermop> not too old for lego at 30, not too old for them at 100
16:54:33  <KittenKoder> Was too busy working to play with them.
16:55:12  <KittenKoder> .. but there's always time for video games and coding.
16:55:21  <supermop> I do plan to stop playing by the time  am 110
16:55:29  <KittenKoder> LOL
16:55:41  <KittenKoder> Meh, to each their own really, I'm just trolling there.
16:55:46  <supermop> due to family probably refusing to bury me with them
16:56:17  <KittenKoder> Okay, maybe I should do a replacement set for the standard OGFX maglevs.
16:56:29  <supermop> could be good
16:56:35  <KittenKoder> At least the graphics.
16:56:57  <supermop> i really just get bothered by all non-multiple unit maglevs
16:57:03  <KittenKoder> I wish the 2cc st would have replaced them.
16:57:57  <Terkhen> OpenGFX is always looking for better sprites, if you see something you don't like, feel free to try to improve it :)
16:59:36  <KittenKoder> Aside from the offset problem, the coloring is .... well ... blech.
17:00:10  <KittenKoder> But also with many of the new train sets, you don't have to change everything to maglev even with the breakdowns enabled.
17:00:35  <Terkhen> yes, many sprites can be improved
17:00:47  <supermop> how about 'ogfx+ future'  a set of futuristic vehicles that replace the defaults, but still fit well with standard ogfx sprites?
17:01:32  <supermop> there are sprites that look good, and then there are sprites that look good with other sprites
17:01:32  <Terkhen> it does not fit with the ogfx+ theme, but I would like it
17:02:34  <KittenKoder> Well, I prefer +sci-fi .... future is just so unpredictable, as sci-fi proves.
17:03:10  <KittenKoder> Like, 1930's sci-fi trains appearing in 1960 .... which look cool, but fit in and are not unbalanced.
17:03:57  <KittenKoder> About the only thing I really like about Maglev is that the newer sets with them look ... well ... cool.
17:04:25  <KittenKoder> My favorite electric train is the TGV series.
17:04:32  <KittenKoder> I love how they look.
17:04:38  <Terkhen> that would be nice too
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17:05:14  <KittenKoder> I also like the BM73
17:06:06  <KittenKoder> The Genesis is a nice looking diesel one.
17:06:22  <KittenKoder> All my favorites are passenger trains though.
17:06:24  <KittenKoder> LOL
17:07:06  <KittenKoder> But then I guess it makes sense that passenger trains would be dressed up more than freight.
17:08:07  <supermop> true
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17:09:51  <supermop> lunch time, later
17:10:12  <KittenKoder> bye for now
17:10:23  * KittenKoder ponders ordering pizza.
17:10:31  <opa_> hi
17:11:07  <opa_> i have vbeen playing the vanilla version quite a while and was wondering if anyone could say somekind of collection of add-ons (grfs?) to make the game more interesting?
17:11:27  <KittenKoder> FIRS
17:12:03  <KittenKoder> It renewed my interest in freight.
17:12:30  <KittenKoder> ... and super long trains.
17:12:53  <KittenKoder> However the FIRS industry set will require work with road vehicles.
17:13:27  <Terkhen> opa_: if you use a industry NewGRF such as FIRS you will also need NewGRF vehicle sets; since default vehicles will not be able to carry the new cargo types
17:13:51  <Terkhen> if you want something as similar as possible to the default vehicles, try OpenGFX+ Trains / OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles
17:14:20  <Terkhen> if you prefer something based on real vehicles, there are a lot of train sets out there that support all industry sets
17:17:52  <opa_> thanks
17:17:56  <opa_> i'll look for those
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17:31:31  <peter1138> nice
17:31:35  <KittenKoder> Epic.
17:32:35  <KittenKoder> Gah.
17:32:44  <KittenKoder> I always lose interest in a game around 2040.
17:34:36  <opa_> how much harder the game is with FIRS?
17:34:46  <KittenKoder> Depends on the settings.
17:34:54  <Pinkbeast> Not much, but you can't do the no-brainer "coal, power station" thing.
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17:35:19  <KittenKoder> Set the parameters so that everything can close and primary production decreases without supplies .... that makes it more interesting.
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17:35:36  <opa_> low towns and industries, hilly/very hilly, otherwise quite like default
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17:36:19  <KittenKoder> Also turn on "allow multiple industries of the same type per town" .... then you can do industrial "complexes"
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17:36:44  <KittenKoder> But you may also have to set number of industries to very low.
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17:37:19  <opa_> why?
17:37:20  <KittenKoder> Basically, play with the settings and parameters ... each combination will have different challenges to face.
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17:38:27  <KittenKoder> Well, if you allow multiple industries of the same type, it seems to increase the number of industries ... don't know why, so if you want some track building room ...
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17:39:15  <KittenKoder> I just noticed something, do level crossings go by the reserved tracks?
17:41:09  <andythenorth> bongiorno
17:41:20  <KittenKoder> Hihi
17:42:09  * andythenorth ponders
17:42:11  <KittenKoder> They do!
17:42:14  <KittenKoder> Cool beans.
17:42:30  <andythenorth> not many Italians producing ottd stuff?
17:42:36  <andythenorth> mostly a northern europe thing?
17:42:48  <KittenKoder> Or at least not many Italian NewGRFs.
17:42:53  <KittenKoder> I saw one.
17:43:22  <KittenKoder> buckethead is making it, looks like.
17:44:26  <KittenKoder> I figured out the problem with my depots .... forgot to set the raytracing shading to cel shading.
17:45:07  <KittenKoder> That's why I kept winding up with such horrible coloring for them.
17:45:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22753 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt unfinished/persian.txt):
17:45:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:45:23  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 60 changes by Peymanpn
17:45:52  <KittenKoder> Italian passenger trains look cool!
17:48:48  <KittenKoder> I have one serious pixel problem with my tracks that I can't fix ... it just won't fix no matter what I try ... >.<
17:49:59  <KittenKoder> But looking at other tracks, they have it to.
17:50:46  <KittenKoder> The upperleft-lowerright does not align right with the vertical at the lower point.
17:51:29  <KittenKoder> Mine just looks more prominent because of the solid coloring and style.
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18:10:28  <KittenKoder> Okay, this sucks.
18:10:51  <KittenKoder> Trying to find actual science fiction references to trains online seems much harder than I thought it would.
18:12:37  <KittenKoder> ... and now I find a great resource. LOL Whine about something and it fixes itself.
18:14:04  <KittenKoder> Hmm .... superconductor maglev.
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18:17:30  <andythenorth>
18:17:37  <andythenorth> really, why
18:17:44  <andythenorth> why would you think it was necessary to do that :P
18:18:20  <KittenKoder> To do what?
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18:18:47  <andythenorth> build that railroad
18:18:53  <andythenorth> it's awesome, but reallly....
18:18:57  <KittenKoder> LOL
18:19:10  <KittenKoder> Some people REALLY wanted trains through their towns.
18:19:22  <KittenKoder> Even one building sized towns. :p
18:19:22  <Coke> i cant for the life of me find the area catchment display option in advanced settings
18:19:33  <Coke> (that blue grid when you place stations)
18:19:52  <Coke> ah, coverage highlight
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18:22:40  <KittenKoder> This one looks cool:
18:23:59  <KittenKoder> Freight sci-fi trains:
18:24:01  <KittenKoder> :p
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18:27:02  <Yexo> good evening
18:27:22  <andythenorth> hola Yexo
18:27:29  <andythenorth> had fun? :)
18:27:39  <Yexo> a lot :)
18:28:43  <Terkhen> welcome back Yexo :)
18:28:49  <Yexo> thank you :)
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18:39:21  <Zuu> Hello Yexo
18:39:47  <KittenKoder> What was the maglev style tracks included in the OGFX called?
18:39:53  <KittenKoder> The technical name.
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18:41:19  <andythenorth> maglev?
18:41:19  <KittenKoder> EDS, right?
18:41:44  <KittenKoder> Versus the monorail style/
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18:46:58  <Terkhen> I don't remember any technical name for them :P
18:47:19  <Terkhen> if they are based on a real kind of track, the answer might be buried somewhere in the opengfx thread
18:48:18  <KittenKoder> I was digging through the wiki on real maglevs, EDS and EMS are the propulsion systems ... >.<
18:48:51  <KittenKoder> Doesn't seem to have any mention of a technical name for the two types, just "monorail like" and "the other".
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18:50:00  <Rubidium> KittenKoder: the propulsion is tied to the track type
18:50:19  <KittenKoder> I was thinking of making an actual distinction between them, and making the monorail like one also capable of handling the monorail trains as well.
18:51:40  <KittenKoder> Rubidium, I gathered that the two would be different types of tracks, but there are two different track structures as well, one is like a canal, the other like a monorail, and was wondering if there was a technical name for this difference.
18:52:19  <KittenKoder> I am probably over thinking this all though.
18:52:30  <Rubidium> for EDS you need the canal form as the magnets are at the outer side of the train (left and right)
18:53:00  <KittenKoder> Aha, thanks, that actually does help out.
18:53:08  <Rubidium> EDS is used for propulsion and levitation
18:53:50  <Rubidium> EMS is only for levitation; they need another method for propulsion
18:54:28  <KittenKoder> Third type is Stabilized permanent magnet suspension, SPM
18:55:45  <KittenKoder> Wondering if it would be too much work to actually make the trains from the other sets unique based on this information, or not.
18:57:31  <KittenKoder> I want the sci-fi ones to use it .... but that's because I'm a sucker for such minor details.
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19:02:55  <KittenKoder> The strange thing is that most sci-fi trains, even from more modern writers, are standard rails.
19:02:56  <KittenKoder> LOL
19:04:12  <KittenKoder> The concept is looking more like fantasy trains than science fiction.
19:06:21  <KittenKoder> I need to play around with NuTracks a bit, see what they are like.
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19:13:33  <__ln__>
19:17:35  <glx> will be in MSVC2015 ;)
19:17:35  <KittenKoder> Interesting.
19:17:55  <__ln__> glx: unless that's HTML5 only :)
19:18:24  <glx> MSVC2010 is still not C99 compatible, so...
19:18:42  <KittenKoder> NuTracks keeps giving me an invalid ID error.
19:20:29  <supermop> hmm draw sprites or play ottd?
19:20:36  <supermop> or draw real buildings...
19:21:02  <KittenKoder> Do all three! :p
19:22:59  <KittenKoder> I'm going to try hand drawing my maglev tracks, see if I can get better results .... or worse.
19:23:59  <KittenKoder> Probably worse.
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19:44:37  <KittenKoder> Hmm ... changing the palette for a GRF is a certain savegame break, huh.
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19:48:45  * KittenKoder suddenly wants to watch Ghosts of Mars
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19:49:45  <opa_> is there any difference how many pumps i get into stations area in FIRS
19:57:47  <Terkhen> opa_: no, as long as you get enough to get cargo in your station
20:03:54  <opa_> thanks
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20:05:45  <KittenKoder> I love how the FIRS oil wells look
20:06:10  <andythenorth> they're just original oil well sprites, but scattered ;)
20:06:17  <andythenorth> they're not even animated :P
20:06:40  <KittenKoder> That
20:06:44  <KittenKoder> That's what I mean.
20:06:55  <KittenKoder> Should say how they lay out instead.
20:07:48  <KittenKoder> Especially when you get a couple, right next to a city, then you can feed them all into one .... makes it look really cool.
20:08:30  <KittenKoder> Even though they probably shouldn't wind up so close to cities.
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20:10:48  <KittenKoder> I am actually liking the whole industrial complex concept.
20:11:35  <Terkhen> they are not animated? is there an open issue for that?
20:11:43  <Terkhen> when I reach them I could add the animation
20:12:27  * andythenorth looks
20:12:47  <andythenorth> Terkhen: that was the largest argument in favour of nml :P
20:13:01  <KittenKoder> lol
20:13:57  <KittenKoder> After it goes to NML I may see if I can help contribute something.
20:14:23  * KittenKoder is not the best team player but can at least try.
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21:37:56  * KittenKoder has got to stop relying on default values
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22:35:32  <Razmir> Hi, I need an advice. How can ban IP XXX.YYY/16?
22:35:33  <Razmir> XXX.YYY.* or XXX.YYY/16 did not work for me in the banlist
22:39:51  <Terkhen> sorry, I don't know that :)
22:39:52  <Terkhen> good night
22:41:07  <Wolf01> 'night
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23:28:39  <Razmir> nevermind, solved using iptables...
23:29:11  <KittenKoder> ???
23:30:36  <Eddi|zuHause> Razmir: have you tried something like xxx.yyy.0.0?
23:31:07  <Eddi|zuHause> like xxx.yyy.0.0/16 maybe
23:31:59  <KittenKoder> I'm of the mind that it's impossible to line up everything perfectly and I should stop being such a perfectionist.
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