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00:12:22 *** TWerkhoven2 [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 00:19:39 * Zuu pulls his hair and figure out that he need to change some parts of how globals are stored + accessed in a mid-size program. 00:27:50 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #openttd 00:29:15 <Rob110178> Hi all 00:35:16 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-25-61-201.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 00:37:52 <Zuu> Hello Rob110178 00:58:52 *** Fuco [dota.keys@server.dasnet.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:08:53 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has quit [] 01:16:07 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:18:17 *** Prof_Frink [~proffrink@5e0a9627.bb.sky.com] has joined #openttd 01:18:36 *** valhalla1w [~valhallas@193.52.24.37] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 01:25:29 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-016-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Quit: Python is way too complicated... I prefer doing it quickly in C.] 01:33:18 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #openttd 01:40:25 *** Biolunar [mahdi@77.8.61.113] has quit [Quit: All your IRC are belong to us!] 01:52:08 <Rob110178> For some reason signaling is still confusing the daylights out of me... Grrr 02:09:16 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 02:32:36 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6AE24.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 02:35:13 *** Sigvatr [sig@42.241.98.11] has quit [] 02:37:18 *** kaparen [~aabbcc@c-b063e455.94-17-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 02:50:50 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 03:12:32 *** enr1x [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #openttd 03:14:21 *** enr1x_ [~kiike@62.57.225.29.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:24:31 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B739BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 03:24:41 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B739BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 03:25:46 *** rhaeder [~quix0r@dslb-094-221-136-226.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 03:31:16 *** rhaeder1 [~quix0r@dslb-188-109-242-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 03:44:15 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:59e5:79d8:f03d:a513] has quit [Quit: bye] 04:36:03 *** supermop_ [~daniel_er@cpe-67-243-25-39.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Quit: supermop_] 05:41:10 *** blotek_ [~blotek@dey190.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:53:15 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 05:55:34 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B739BF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 05:55:54 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73D6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 06:03:12 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 06:42:36 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #openttd 07:14:39 <Terkhen> good morning 07:15:23 <Terkhen> Rob110178: signalling is confusing... I learned by checking examples at the openttd and openttdcoop wikis 07:32:03 *** Progman [~progman@p57A1D42C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 07:43:03 <Qantourisc> What font-types does openttd eat ? 07:43:12 <Qantourisc> xfonts type or ? 07:48:07 <Qantourisc> ok freefonts too nice 07:57:52 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 07:57:57 <andythenorth> wtf 07:58:00 <andythenorth> auto-refit 07:58:01 <andythenorth> :o 07:58:08 * andythenorth smells a FISH update soon 08:02:53 <planetmaker> and heqs! 08:03:08 <planetmaker> moin also :-) 08:03:08 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has joined #openttd 08:04:07 <planetmaker> but auto-update is VERY awesome 08:04:15 <planetmaker> *auto-refit 08:05:41 <planetmaker> hm... conditional orders now need additions ideally: if cargo==GOOD goto <blah> 08:05:59 <planetmaker> if cargo==FMSP goto <blub> 08:06:38 <Eddi|zuHause> don't think that's a workable idea (gameplay wise) 08:06:54 <Eddi|zuHause> what if half the wagons are GOOD and the other half FMSP? 08:08:09 <planetmaker> it'd need options like "at least one wagon" and "all wagons", similar to full load all and full load any 08:08:48 *** erik [~erik@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has joined #openttd 08:08:50 <planetmaker> and I think it's a workable idea. Like when I pickup cargos A and B, then I want to bring them to their respective destinations A' and B' 08:09:13 <planetmaker> so I want to check whether I have to go to A' and B' or only one of them 08:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i rather see autorefit in the context of cargo destinations 08:09:51 *** erik [~erik@vhe-490300.sshn.net] has left #openttd [] 08:10:04 <Eddi|zuHause> then the cargo decides whether the train goes in the right direction, not the train 08:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see it useful without 08:11:39 <planetmaker> with destinations it's even more useful. But I see much use also without 08:11:53 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 08:12:14 <planetmaker> like when you bring cargo from a transfer station to a ore smelter or so 08:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> question: can autorefit change individual vehicles of an articulated consist (e.g. 2-part tram can be half passengers, half tourist, or heqs tram with individual cargo for each wagon)? 08:14:16 <planetmaker> it can change individual wagons. Not sure about articulated parts 08:14:45 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-094-216-032-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:18:01 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 08:18:30 <andythenorth> so auto-refit chooses the most waiting cargo? 08:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather have it some-of-everything 08:19:54 <andythenorth> there's no look ahead in the station list to see if the loaded cargo is accepted? 08:20:17 <andythenorth> so I can load coal at A, and ship it meaninglessly between A and B :) 08:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that only works with cargo destinations 08:20:42 <andythenorth> acceptance doesn't demand cargo destinations 08:20:48 <andythenorth> look in the station acceptance 08:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but you'd break feeder systems then 08:21:09 <andythenorth> yes 08:21:11 <andythenorth> true 08:21:18 <andythenorth> could be a different style of gameplay... 08:21:36 <andythenorth> I can see the obvious applications of this with destinations 08:21:49 <andythenorth> trying to figure how it works with non-destination games 08:21:57 <andythenorth> I should just patch FISH for it :P 08:22:01 <andythenorth> no time right now 08:22:27 <andythenorth> either way, it's nice :) 08:22:39 <andythenorth> more evidence for OpenTTD Is Clearly Not Dying :D 08:22:54 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-094-216-032-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:23:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can also station-refit to an explicitly chosen cargo 08:23:17 <planetmaker> instead of available cargo 08:23:37 <andythenorth> that has been much-discussed before :) 08:23:45 <andythenorth> it is good 08:23:55 <planetmaker> and if there's less cargo combined from types A and B, both will be carried, if individual parts can be refit 08:24:08 <planetmaker> as said, not sure about articulated. But for trains it works 08:24:13 <planetmaker> if non-articulated 08:24:15 * andythenorth wonders who's working on partial-refit for ships :P 08:24:47 <planetmaker> hehe 08:24:56 <andythenorth> planetmaker: from reading the diff, I think it's unlikely to work with articulated road vehicles 08:25:02 <andythenorth> (for partial refit) 08:25:18 <andythenorth> but refit-at-station is still good 08:25:23 <andythenorth> especially for ships 08:25:33 <planetmaker> for every vehicle 08:25:59 <planetmaker> why should I go to a depot when I want to load tractors instead of bulldozers? 08:26:12 <planetmaker> Or fuel oil barrels instead of oil barrels? 08:26:35 <andythenorth> indeed 08:29:00 <andythenorth> fmsp -> farm -> refit to wool etc 08:29:05 <planetmaker> yup 08:29:17 <planetmaker> very sensible suddenly 08:32:23 *** JVassie [~James@2.27.86.104] has joined #openttd 08:34:34 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 08:34:37 *** mode/#openttd [+o Alberth] by ChanServ 08:39:52 *** Neon [~Neon@dslb-094-219-016-094.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd 08:42:43 <planetmaker> and it makes not-updated NewGRFs IMHO much less attractive to play with... 08:42:59 <planetmaker> a side-effect which is if mixed quality 08:43:27 <Alberth> hi planetmaker 08:43:36 <planetmaker> though... probably much more positive than bad. 08:43:39 <planetmaker> good morning Alberth 08:43:46 <andythenorth> hmm 08:43:55 <Alberth> hi andy :) 08:44:17 <andythenorth> a set of shiny new features could be cause for a lot of newgrf updates 08:44:32 <andythenorth> what backwards compatibility might we want to get rid of for v8? :) 08:44:40 <andythenorth> what's causing trouble? 08:45:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: ...http://rbijker.net/openttd/misc/changelog.txt <-- 10 days old or so 08:45:46 <planetmaker> changes in trunk wrt stable 08:45:50 <planetmaker> 80% NewGRF ;-) 08:46:27 <andythenorth> we debated something a few months ago at length 08:46:41 <andythenorth> something that would be desirable, but break older grfs 08:46:43 <andythenorth> I forget what 08:46:47 <planetmaker> the grfv8 thread might be the place to not it :-) 08:46:57 <planetmaker> hight levels? 08:47:00 <andythenorth> no 08:47:00 <planetmaker> *height 08:47:03 <andythenorth> not that 08:47:19 <peter1138> road types 08:47:25 <peter1138> vehicles in vehicles 08:47:29 <andythenorth> that breaks older grfs? :o 08:47:30 <peter1138> multistop docks 08:47:30 <andythenorth> :P 08:47:41 <andythenorth> peter1138: you are a bot imitating me 08:47:57 <andythenorth> might have been something to do with changing grfs in game 08:48:02 <andythenorth> which is still a bad idea 08:48:14 <andythenorth> but not being able to change parameters in game is also a bad idea 08:48:23 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 08:48:27 <andythenorth> maybe I suggested removing the ability for grfs to disable 08:48:32 <andythenorth> that is a bad idea too 08:48:42 <peter1138> you can change parameters in game, with the appropriate setting, can't you? 08:48:46 <andythenorth> I can yes 08:48:52 <andythenorth> 'normals' can't 08:48:52 <peter1138> well then 08:49:04 <andythenorth> maybe I proposed changing cargo class definitions 08:49:12 <andythenorth> that would be an interesting bunfight with MB 08:49:49 <andythenorth> hmm 08:50:02 <andythenorth> whatever it was, I think planetmaker even sent me a pm about it 08:50:14 <andythenorth> or maybe I just suggested banning newgrfs that weren't GPL 08:50:42 <planetmaker> :-D 08:50:51 <planetmaker> cargo classes... 08:50:56 * andythenorth has memory of a rabbiy 08:52:15 <peter1138> there are 8 fixed cargo classes 08:52:23 <peter1138> you can use the rest how you see fit 08:52:36 <peter1138> of course, not if you want compatibility ;) 08:53:03 <peter1138> but the upper 8 is not part of the spec, so no spec change is needed 08:58:59 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 08:59:14 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 09:04:42 <Elukka> awww yeah 09:04:43 <Elukka> http://i195.photobucket.com/albums/z113/Elucca/Mun.png 09:04:49 <Elukka> kerbal space program has a moon now! 09:09:39 <Qantourisc> Why is openttd so easy on the money ? 09:10:02 <Qantourisc> once you get rolling 09:10:06 <Qantourisc> it gets out of control 09:11:51 <planetmaker> did you try how easy it is on a 128^2 map? 09:14:30 <Elukka> because it doesn't really model business 09:15:16 <Elukka> if you just make things more expensive all it will do is slightly postpone that part of the game where you have practically infinite money 09:15:28 <Elukka> there was a project for a new business model but i don't think anything came out of it 09:15:32 <Elukka> i think it'd be interesting 09:18:49 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: you can also employ a base cost newgrf which allows to adjust costs and running costs in a manner to increase the challange 09:20:32 <Alberth> Elukka: it is far from trivial; you need to make money otherwise you cannot play. Once you can make money, it is inevitable you make more money when you grow. 09:21:04 <Alberth> Elukka: in other words, you need a new element that hits you harder as you grow 09:21:09 <Elukka> yeah 09:21:12 <Elukka> it's all but trivial 09:21:26 <Elukka> real business, as well as games with a more elaborate business model, retain challenge even after you have a big company :P 09:21:35 <Elukka> i don't even know how you'd do it though 09:23:42 <peter1138> in theory, competition would affect your profits 09:23:44 <peter1138> but it doesn't :P 09:24:22 <Elukka> yeah but it's far from the only factor 09:25:03 <Alberth> peter1138: in MP, it might 09:25:29 <peter1138> it doesn't 09:25:51 *** Cybertinus [~Cybertinu@tunnel3304.ipv6.xs4all.nl] has joined #openttd 09:29:56 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 09:32:20 <planetmaker> it does. A little 09:32:39 <planetmaker> depends on how "friendly" the competition is. 09:33:41 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 09:34:05 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 09:34:22 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 09:46:07 <andythenorth> hmm 09:46:10 * andythenorth ponders evil 09:46:18 <andythenorth> flag to prevent a ship entering locks 09:46:55 <andythenorth> e.g. for large ships 09:47:04 <andythenorth> this would force the building of sea level routes, or smaller ships 09:47:21 <planetmaker> rather prevent running on rivers then 09:47:36 <andythenorth> that's plausible too 09:47:44 <andythenorth> although I can do that with speed fraction 09:47:47 <andythenorth> (might suck) 09:48:46 <Qantourisc> hmmm 09:49:08 <Qantourisc> I think the best thread to your money is breaking trains :) 09:49:47 <Qantourisc> and a bigger penality for not having your network running smooth 09:52:43 <Qantourisc> I think the best course is making sure you only get a slim profit. 09:52:51 <Qantourisc> But yes competition too would be nice. 09:53:01 <Qantourisc> problem with them is ... they build a lot in the way :) 09:53:18 <Qantourisc> And there is no track-renting to solve that :) 09:55:10 *** Biolunar [mahdi@blfd-4db192fd.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 09:55:12 * andythenorth is currently excited about working on FISH and HEQS :) 09:55:21 <planetmaker> :-) 10:01:55 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 10:03:36 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #openttd 10:03:58 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #openttd 10:04:22 <Wolf01> hello 10:04:35 <andythenorth> lo 10:05:34 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has quit [Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.87 [Firefox 7.0.1/20111008085652]] 10:06:10 * andythenorth however does not have enough hours per day for working on FISH and HEQS :o 10:07:40 *** peter1138 [~petern@lachesis.fuzzle.org] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 10:08:40 <andythenorth> hmm 10:08:43 * andythenorth missed r22293 10:09:06 <andythenorth> now I have to work on CHIPS too :o 10:09:22 <Terkhen> bbl 10:09:35 <andythenorth> hmm 10:09:38 <Wolf01> I read "chimps" gah... 10:09:46 <andythenorth> maybe I forgot it rather than missed it 10:09:50 <andythenorth> CHIPS supports it 10:10:52 <Alberth> one done, two to go :) 10:11:18 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 10:11:47 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 10:12:44 *** peter1138 [~petern@lachesis.fuzzle.org] has joined #openttd 10:12:47 *** mode/#openttd [+o peter1138] by ChanServ 10:13:46 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 10:15:30 <__ln__> it's the 5th of november 10:15:36 <andythenorth> fireworks grf? 10:15:42 <andythenorth> newobject, animated palette 10:16:28 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6AE24.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 10:17:01 <__ln__> gunpowder cargo 10:18:07 <planetmaker> I still like alberth's suggestion: 1 cargo unit produced every 5 years. Transportable only in a very expensive container with vmax = 5km/h. Delivery revenue... like rotten cheese 10:20:23 <Alberth> __ln__: sparkles mine in toyland 10:22:20 <planetmaker> :-) 10:22:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: sounds like nuclear fuel :P 10:22:37 <planetmaker> :-P 10:23:00 <planetmaker> obviously it was also clear without re-citing the cargo name :-) 10:23:03 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 10:23:09 <planetmaker> cookie for andy :-P 10:24:10 <andythenorth> an oft-suggested cargo 10:24:13 <andythenorth> never implemented 10:24:19 * andythenorth wonders what's wrong with cargo classes 10:24:28 <andythenorth> bulk 10:24:30 <Alberth> hence my realistic suggestion :) 10:25:09 <andythenorth> http://newgrf-specs.tt-wiki.net/wiki/Action0/Cargos#CargoClasses_.2816.29 10:25:19 * andythenorth wonders if FIRS sets bit 10 for any cargos 10:25:27 <andythenorth> or bit 8 10:27:19 <planetmaker> probably not 10:27:36 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip1.mibbit.com] has quit [Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client] 10:28:02 <andythenorth> hmm 10:28:38 <Alberth> do we even have such cargo? 10:29:12 <planetmaker> nope 10:29:13 <andythenorth> maybe we should 10:29:21 <andythenorth> chemicals are hazardous? 10:29:23 <planetmaker> only as add-on, IMHO 10:29:23 <andythenorth> as is petrol 10:29:48 <planetmaker> though... chemicals as hazardous.... Might make sense 10:29:57 <planetmaker> petrol... maybe... not sure 10:29:59 <andythenorth> are they OR or AND when refitting? 10:30:05 <planetmaker> depends 10:30:14 <andythenorth> on the refit masks...? 10:30:24 <planetmaker> classes AND NOT other classes XOR cargos 10:30:42 <planetmaker> yup 10:30:44 <andythenorth> adding hazardous allows set authors to do things like restrict speed when carrying chemicals 10:30:53 <andythenorth> or force the use of barrier wagons in trains 10:30:55 <planetmaker> true 10:31:03 <planetmaker> barrier wagon? Never heart that 10:31:29 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 10:32:15 <andythenorth> http://forum.railroadforum.com/lofiversion/index.php?t14859.html 10:33:22 *** Pulec [~pulec@static-cl093181068250.unet.cz] has joined #openttd 10:34:59 <andythenorth> also,the spec implies that FMSP and ENSP probably must have bit 10 set 10:35:10 <andythenorth> "industrial equipment, machinery" 10:41:40 <Qantourisc> My trains are ignoring the service stations ... 10:41:54 <Qantourisc> why ? 10:42:32 <Yexo> you disabled breakdowns and servicing when breakdowns are off, or they are too far from the track 10:43:32 <Qantourisc> Yexo: they are a sidetrack 10:43:44 <Yexo> so to far from the normal tracks 10:43:47 <planetmaker> depot look-ahead is 20(?) tiles or so 10:43:53 <Qantourisc> oooow 10:43:57 <Qantourisc> i'm over 20 :) 10:43:59 <Alberth> without signals :) 10:44:33 <Qantourisc> so how do i up that ? 10:44:39 <Alberth> are your trains that long ? 10:44:51 <Qantourisc> currently i made room, so the 1 train can sit before the depot 10:44:53 <Qantourisc> and not block the rest 10:45:02 <Qantourisc> case 1 is leaving 10:46:02 <Alberth> you really have trains of 20 tiles length? insane :p 10:46:50 <Yexo> Qantourisc: if you give your trains "service at" orders they only go to that depot and only when they need service 10:46:59 <Yexo> the lookahead distance doesn't apply in that case 10:47:05 <Qantourisc> hmm 10:47:21 <Qantourisc> Alberth: no they are 7 long 10:47:38 <Alberth> right, so what are the other 13 tiles for? 10:47:42 <Qantourisc> distance between side track is 11 10:47:51 <Qantourisc> So it's a V split. 10:48:00 <Qantourisc> and 11 units later you have your depot 10:49:20 <Qantourisc> maybe it's the signals blocking the detection ? 10:49:39 <Alberth> sounds very largish to me, but then again, I just put the depot directly at the main line :) 10:50:06 <Alberth> signals also count as obstacles, which are translated to 'tiles' eventually 10:50:18 <Qantourisc> hmmm i'll try the lights 10:51:07 <Alberth> there are very likely discussions about this problem at the forum 10:51:28 <Alberth> I don't know whether it is in the FAQ, perhaps it should be added (hint, hint :) ) 10:52:33 <Qantourisc> without the signals it works 10:53:12 <Qantourisc> i'd do it ... but i have NO idea how it really works :/ 10:54:25 <Alberth> the path-finder tries to find a path to a depot every now and then (when a train needs it) upto some max distance. Tiles count as distance, as do other obstacles, such as signals 10:55:00 <Alberth> if the path finder cannot find a depot within range, it is assumed none is around, and some time later it is tried again 10:58:16 <Qantourisc> Ok that i can add :) 11:00:58 <Qantourisc> now waiting on password reset mail :) 11:13:15 <andythenorth> what is the correct cargo class for logs? 11:13:19 <andythenorth> or sugar cane? 11:17:32 *** Devroush [~dennis@178-119-153-135.access.telenet.be] has joined #openttd 11:17:39 * andythenorth wonders why cargo classes are such a mess 11:18:24 <andythenorth> the ontology of cargo classes is a car crash 11:18:59 <andythenorth> they conflate properties of cargos and properties of vehicles 11:19:04 <andythenorth> which is why they're so inadequate 11:19:20 <andythenorth> can we fix them for grf v8? 11:20:04 <andythenorth> 'express' is a property of the cargo, but 'covered' is a property of the vehicle 11:20:31 <andythenorth> 'refrigerated' is a property of the vehicle, but 'suitable for pouring' is a property of the cargo 11:21:00 <andythenorth> 'armored' is a property of the vehicle, but 'hazardous' is a property of the cargo 11:21:53 <andythenorth> the proposal to layer in new refit callbacks could solve this, but classes are still a horrible mess 11:22:12 <andythenorth> are we stuck with this because nobody wants to argue with MB? 11:22:37 <andythenorth> I know he's going to brandish UIC codes and send me to some catalogue of DB wagon types if we raise this, but it's just a mess 11:23:23 <Qantourisc> Alberth: amen 11:23:25 <Qantourisc> euuu 11:23:27 <Qantourisc> andythenorth: amen 11:24:57 <Alberth> andythenorth: but you can read 'refrigerated' as a 'must-be-kept-cold' cargo property. 11:25:34 <Qantourisc> There is still shape ... 11:25:47 <Alberth> ie the terminology may be somewhat wrong only 11:26:11 <Qantourisc> BTW refitting a good idea ? 11:26:53 <peter1138> cargo classes describe how the cargo is transported 11:27:07 <peter1138> well, not describe, but relate to 11:27:27 <andythenorth> they only 50% work 11:27:57 <peter1138> you're misinterpreting them i think 11:28:36 <andythenorth> hmm 11:28:40 <andythenorth> I'm trying my best 11:28:44 <andythenorth> I've been doing this a while :P 11:28:52 <andythenorth> I've made a few vehicles 11:29:20 <andythenorth> I'd be happy to be set straight :) 11:30:09 <Yexo> <Alberth> andythenorth: but you can read 'refrigerated' as a 'must-be-kept-cold' cargo property. <- not all current sets interpret it that way 11:30:52 <andythenorth> what class is scrap metal? 11:31:15 <Alberth> the specs are ambiguous thus 11:31:29 <andythenorth> possibly the problem is that classes are fine for the common cases 11:31:41 <andythenorth> i.e. a range of DB railway vehicles which they were invented for 11:31:48 <andythenorth> they only fail on edge cases, so maybe only 10% 11:31:50 <Alberth> perhaps you have a new kind of cargo 11:32:02 <andythenorth> I am the one with all the edge cases :P 11:32:15 <andythenorth> I have a vehicle set which is pretty much all edge cases 11:32:26 <andythenorth> and we've pushed cargo ideas a bit with FIRS 11:32:29 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 11:32:45 <Alberth> that's how you make progress :) 11:33:04 <Alberth> but life sucks at the front line :( 11:33:08 <andythenorth> I could just declare FIRS 'winner' and only claim vehicle support in my sets for FIRS and default 11:33:16 <andythenorth> but that wasn't the point of classes 11:33:32 <andythenorth> they're supposed to provide a dream of interoparability and forward compatibility 11:33:34 <andythenorth> they don't 11:34:02 <Alberth> unfortunately, reality kicked in :p 11:34:15 <Yexo> it's easy enough to properly support firs + default and all other cargos only via the cargoclasses 11:34:15 <peter1138> they're specified for the default cargos 11:34:25 <andythenorth> so what will actually happen is that I will get maintenance requests for my vehicle sets 11:34:30 <Yexo> that means all other cargos might be transported in wrong wagons, but at least your set is able to transport them 11:34:32 <peter1138> anything that doesn't fit into the default classes should get a new class that you decide 11:34:36 <peter1138> that's the point o_O 11:34:40 <andythenorth> if we add rice to FIRS for example, I have to update HEQS 11:34:58 <andythenorth> that might be wholly unavoidable tbh 11:35:18 <Yexo> why would you HEQS have to be updated precisely? is rice not transportable or doesn't it have special graphics? 11:35:27 <andythenorth> rice doesn't travel by mining truck 11:35:34 <Yexo> but you can transport it 11:35:34 <andythenorth> I am probably stuck maintaining that tbh 11:35:41 <andythenorth> mining trucks are an edge case 11:35:47 <Yexo> transporting it in the proper wagons cannot be done by cargoclasses as they're defined now 11:35:56 <Alberth> did you ever try it the other way around, design cargo classes without bothering what exists, and see what you change? 11:36:06 <andythenorth> yes 11:36:15 <andythenorth> I basically add some splits to bulk 11:36:34 <andythenorth> make it explicit when a cargo can be transported by hopper 11:36:50 <andythenorth> make it explicit when a cargo needs stakes or similar (logs, sugar cane) 11:37:03 <andythenorth> the rest works and wouldn't change much 11:37:09 <andythenorth> but cargo classes are not mutable 11:37:22 <andythenorth> we're stuck with them no? 11:37:26 <Yexo> there are a few bits free, so a few classes can be added 11:37:52 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ you had useful thoughts on this previously 11:38:16 <andythenorth> we had problems like how to transport cement (silo wagons), and such like 11:38:37 <andythenorth> there are cargos that need gondolas, but can't be put through a hopper (scrap metal) 11:38:47 <peter1138> you can make a cargo class for "requires stakes" 11:39:03 <peter1138> there are 8 fixed cargo classes 11:39:25 <andythenorth> bits 11-14 are free? 11:39:32 <peter1138> bits 8-15 11:39:47 <andythenorth> what happened to 8-9-10? 11:39:51 <andythenorth> spec says they're used 11:40:01 <peter1138> they're "commonly used", but not part of any code 11:40:27 <andythenorth> are classes actually present in ottd code? or a convention? 11:40:33 <Yexo> cargo classes are only useful if multiple sets support them. So changing 8-9-10 is not really an option 11:41:09 * andythenorth needs to remember how refits work again 11:41:42 <andythenorth> there's a difference between 'compatible with' and 'requires' 11:41:53 <peter1138> andythenorth, classes 0-7 are used in the default set of cargos 11:42:02 <andythenorth> ok thanks 11:42:56 <andythenorth> I'm ignoring the HEQS mining trucks as an edge 11:42:58 <andythenorth> case 11:43:04 <peter1138> it's a shame they're not 32 bit 11:43:09 <andythenorth> grf v8... 11:43:45 <andythenorth> is there even a conceptual solution to the mining trucks? 11:43:47 <andythenorth> hmm 11:43:59 <andythenorth> so the issue is they should only carry minerals, not agricultural cargos 11:44:13 <andythenorth> so someone adds rice, I have to add it to my CTT and mask it out 11:44:18 <andythenorth> someone adds grapes, same 11:44:21 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc098.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #openttd 11:44:22 <andythenorth> someone adds olives, same 11:44:37 <Yexo> or you do it the other way around and only explicitely minierals 11:44:40 <andythenorth> could do 11:44:49 <andythenorth> then someone adds phosphates, I need to update HEQS 11:44:54 <Yexo> of course you'd have the same problem if someone added a new mineral cargo 11:45:15 <andythenorth> I can file this under edge case, unless we extend cargo attributes 11:45:49 <andythenorth> If we extend cargo attributes some of the 'conceptual' cargos like goods and supplies get....a lot of classes 11:48:15 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 11:48:40 * andythenorth needs to be smarter 11:48:51 <andythenorth> drawing pixels does not require being smart 11:48:52 <peter1138> add a "food" class 11:49:00 <andythenorth> hmm 11:49:03 <andythenorth> that is interesting 11:49:07 <peter1138> then disallow all food 11:49:19 <andythenorth> should town buildings have supported classes? 11:49:37 <andythenorth> the convention is that industry set defines cargos, but not also houses 11:49:46 <andythenorth> which must be....interesting for house set authors 11:50:51 *** Brianetta [~brian@212.183.140.9] has joined #openttd 11:51:35 <andythenorth> I started thinking about this because of the new auto-refit & cb 11:51:46 <andythenorth> if I have a tanker carrying milk, can it refit to petrol? 11:51:50 <andythenorth> at the station? 11:51:54 <andythenorth> for £0? 11:52:31 <andythenorth> both are liquid... 11:52:47 <planetmaker> if you set refit costs to 0 and allow station-refit: then yes 11:52:53 <planetmaker> it's the newgrf author's choice 11:52:58 <andythenorth> yes 11:53:06 <andythenorth> so should I allow it? 11:53:18 <planetmaker> I would not allow that. Only the other way around 11:53:18 <andythenorth> if my open wagon has carried coal, can it now carry grain? 11:53:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how would you allow / prevent it? 11:53:39 <andythenorth> reliably 11:53:48 <planetmaker> dirty->dirty: yes. clean->dirty: yes. dirty->clean: no. clean->clean: yes, but at (reduced) cost 11:53:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: via callback 11:54:13 <planetmaker> and looking at all possible cargos. See my posting. Or ogfx+trains 11:54:19 <Yexo> why clean->clean at reduced cost but not dirty->dirty? 11:54:26 <andythenorth> you can't look at all possible cargos 11:54:27 <planetmaker> that's for free, Yexo 11:54:29 <andythenorth> you don't know the future 11:54:30 <Yexo> ah :) 11:54:40 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 11:54:58 <planetmaker> that's what I showed you yesterday 11:55:39 <planetmaker> indeed I don't know the future. Depends on what you want. One might allow it at a cost 11:55:53 <planetmaker> But one can easily treat all existing cargos 11:56:34 <andythenorth> that implies you think cargo classes are inadequate... 11:57:17 <Yexo> of course the current cargo classes are inadequate. Didn't you come to that very same conclusion? 11:57:56 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 11:58:29 <andythenorth> I am not always right 11:58:52 <andythenorth> quite often I have a delusion 12:00:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: a class like 'food' additionally might solve the 'clean' or 'dirty' problem 12:00:55 <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' is how it's handled in the uk - on tanker wagons 12:01:10 <planetmaker> though I'm not sure 'food' is good. I'd not mind plant fibres in that, too 12:01:22 <andythenorth> are plant fibres bulk? 12:01:29 <planetmaker> but coal or ore... is different. Yes, they can 12:01:40 <andythenorth> what happens when you have transported fish, then refit to clothes? 12:01:49 <planetmaker> :-) smelly cotton 12:02:14 <planetmaker> fish is not bulk, but piece 12:02:23 <planetmaker> so it doesn't matter. I replace one box by another 12:02:50 <planetmaker> i.e. for the piece cargos I allow to replace one for the other w/o cost nor trouble 12:03:00 <andythenorth> piece cargos are generally problem free 12:03:08 <planetmaker> except when the wagon needs modifications, like boxes -> vehicles 12:06:59 <andythenorth> are vehicles really piece goods? 12:07:15 <andythenorth> "any unitised cargo, packed or unpacked" 12:07:27 <andythenorth> is a log unitised? 12:07:36 <andythenorth> is a piece of coal unitisied? 12:08:06 <andythenorth> unitised to me implies anything that is not a fluid or gas 12:08:25 <andythenorth> i.e. unitised just means "doesn't flow" 12:08:58 <peter1138> you're still going on about this? 12:09:29 <andythenorth> yup 12:09:34 <andythenorth> still confused :) 12:09:49 <andythenorth> either I'm crap or the spec is crap, or this is a lot of fuss about nothing 12:10:06 <andythenorth> now that OzTrans has flounced off in a storm of handbags, I need to take up his role 12:11:21 *** Fuco [dota.keys@server.dasnet.cz] has joined #openttd 12:11:36 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the difference is much and many ;-) 12:11:47 <planetmaker> You Englishmen have that distinction. I only have viel(e) 12:12:24 <peter1138> now? 12:12:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that is a nice way of putting it :) 12:12:35 <peter1138> has he flounced again? 12:12:36 <andythenorth> peter1138: well quite recently 12:12:53 <andythenorth> I had a chat with danmack, canset has been abandoned by oztrans 12:13:01 <andythenorth> he was probably the only one left using the patch 12:13:23 <andythenorth> well him and wallyweb, and wallyweb mostly uses ottd now iirc 12:13:31 <andythenorth> so oztrans has been crafting an awesome set for...himself 12:13:36 <andythenorth> only now he isn't 12:13:45 <andythenorth> so danmack is left with a lot of sprites and no set 12:13:50 <planetmaker> :-( 12:13:54 <andythenorth> but Pikka is going to fix it I think 12:14:06 <andythenorth> basically NARS 2 code -> Canset 12:14:13 <andythenorth> is my understanding 12:14:26 <andythenorth> which is exciting 12:14:32 <planetmaker> he should call it CATS ;-) 12:14:37 <andythenorth> maybe he will 12:14:39 <andythenorth> suggest it :P 12:15:00 <andythenorth> anyway, I am actually trying to write down new classes here 12:15:01 <planetmaker> I didn't know he works on it. As you talk with him about it... you go 12:15:10 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has joined #openttd 12:15:22 <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' seems to be at least useful, not least with the new auto refitting 12:15:47 <andythenorth> I can't figure out the bulk cargos quite 12:15:57 <andythenorth> there's 'bulk and suitable for hoppers' 12:16:06 <andythenorth> 'bulk and requires stakes or cages or similar' 12:16:18 <andythenorth> and just 'bulk' (goes in gondolas etc, anything with sides) 12:16:39 <andythenorth> there's also technically 'liquid and suitable for hoppers' 12:16:40 <Zuu> Can NewGRFs specify a time delay for auto refiting? (extra time that the vehicle has to stay in the station) 12:16:45 <andythenorth> e.g. grain, plastic pellets, cement 12:16:49 <andythenorth> are all fluids 12:17:26 <peter1138> CanSet v1.1 on Dec 25th 12:17:35 <andythenorth> for patch only :P 12:17:50 <peter1138> not what the post says 12:18:03 <peter1138> no update after that 12:18:12 <Yexo> Zuu: no 12:18:48 <andythenorth> peter1138: danmack seemed to think different ;) 12:19:08 <andythenorth> oztrans has afaik 'left with no goodbyes' 12:19:13 <andythenorth> not even a dramatic door slam 12:19:23 <andythenorth> and of course...no code will be available or reusable 12:19:38 <Zuu> So if a NewGRF want to provide time consuming refits, they have to be done in a depot. (not that they can specify a delay there, but it just takes some time to get into a depot) 12:21:08 <andythenorth> Zuu: possibly the loading time could be adjusted? 12:21:39 <Zuu> possible, I'm not the NewGRF ninja here :-) 12:22:13 <andythenorth> cb36 can change load amount 12:22:30 <andythenorth> if cb36 is called when auto-refitting, then it's probably possible 12:22:34 <andythenorth> convoluted, but possible 12:22:35 <Yexo> andythenorth: but not dependent on whether a vehicle just refitted or not 12:22:45 <andythenorth> hmm 12:22:51 <Yexo> as in the next station it'd still have a lower load time, so that's not what you want 12:22:51 <andythenorth> and there's no per-vehicle storage 12:22:58 <andythenorth> so previous cargo can't be stored 12:23:02 <andythenorth> I think it's overkill anyway 12:24:34 <andythenorth> if the string for FIRS Lumber was changed to Wood Products, would it be less confusing? 12:24:52 <andythenorth> currently Lumber can travel by hopper wagons etc 12:25:24 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 12:25:31 <frosch123> do we need a "clean" cargo class? 12:25:52 <andythenorth> "clean" could work 12:26:07 <andythenorth> provides for foodstuffs, cotton etc 12:26:13 <frosch123> btw. andy: isn't "bulk+oversized" vs. "bulk+not-oversized" what you are always complaniing about? 12:26:21 <andythenorth> frosch123: pretty much 12:26:32 <andythenorth> I think it's entirely solvable within classes, I'm just not smart enough to figure out how 12:26:53 <andythenorth> "clean" is a great class for determining refit cost 12:27:15 <planetmaker> 'clean' would make sense from my POV 12:27:16 <Yexo> frosch123: from the current descriptio of the classes "bulk + oversized" seems nonsense 12:27:42 <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' or 'clean' solve a chunk of my current gripes 12:29:12 <andythenorth> I don't understand 'oversized' 12:29:19 <andythenorth> the intention is totally unclear 12:29:32 <frosch123> i thought of scrap metal as bulk+oversized 12:29:37 <andythenorth> how many industry sets are going to add 'transformers' 12:29:47 <andythenorth> (the electrical devices, not the comic franchise' 12:30:01 <Yexo> does scrap metal need another means of transportation than coal? 12:30:21 <andythenorth> maybe, maybe not 12:30:41 <frosch123> imo a open hopper can transport oversized stuff. a boxvan or self-discharging hopper cannot 12:30:54 <Yexo> hmm, true 12:31:02 <planetmaker> Yexo: depends on size :-) 12:31:28 <andythenorth> how can you fit oversized stuff out the bottom of the hopper? 12:31:33 <andythenorth> it would get stuck in the doors :) 12:32:31 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #openttd 12:33:50 <andythenorth> currently I don't set 'bulk' on scrap metal 12:34:03 <andythenorth> it's piece goods 12:34:07 <Yexo> currently only GLAS and VEHI from ECS are defined as oversized 12:34:20 <andythenorth> are VEHI also piece goods? 12:34:28 <Yexo> SCRP Scrap Metal 0010 Bulk FIRS <_ that's in the wiki 12:34:34 <andythenorth> oops 12:34:35 <Yexo> VEHI are piece goods, oversized 12:34:50 <andythenorth> so all vans in every set should be excluding 'oversized' 12:35:12 <andythenorth> seems an odd class 12:35:14 <andythenorth> I don't get it 12:35:45 <Yexo> well, it fits the description: "any cargo needing special means of transportation" 12:36:20 <andythenorth> seems like a bad idea :) 12:36:29 <andythenorth> I'm going to ignore that one 12:36:55 <andythenorth> it looks like it's supposed to be similar to US railroad 'high wide' or 'dimensional load' 12:37:22 <andythenorth> I can't think how it can be used meaningfully 12:37:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: create a spreadsheet with all you vehicles and all cargos from the wiki 12:37:53 <andythenorth> the wiki is out of spec from FIRS code wrt SCRP btw 12:37:54 <frosch123> then define refittability for each combination and let some algorithm figure out the best cargo classes :p 12:38:30 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 12:38:43 <Yexo> you can simply brute force that with a maximum of 16 cargoclasses 12:39:01 <Yexo> ^^ or not 12:39:06 <Yexo> what was I thinking ? :p 12:39:31 * andythenorth ponders defining coal etc as liquid 12:39:55 *** Sigvatr [sig@114.73.66.175] has joined #openttd 12:39:59 <Yexo> very bad idea 12:40:14 <Sigvatr> hi, i'm having a hard time trying to figure out a good strategy for multiplayer games 12:40:15 <Yexo> all default cargos should never change their cargo classes, or existing sets will break 12:40:39 <Sigvatr> i guess you want to have all of your goods travel really far to their destination? 12:40:45 <Yexo> Sigvatr: how does a strategy for multiplayer games differ from a strategy for singleplayer games? 12:40:48 <andythenorth> Yexo: it would at least solve the scrap metal problem :) 12:41:01 <andythenorth> although coal would then travel by tanker :) 12:41:19 <Yexo> Sigvatr: and a strategy depends on what you want to do 12:41:33 <Yexo> if you want to make as much money as possible, yes, create as long lines as possible 12:43:09 <Sigvatr> i haven't played single player before so i don't know what the difference is 12:45:15 <Sigvatr> i've never played a tycoon game at all until this one yesterday 12:45:22 <Sigvatr> it reminds me of atrain, did you ever play that? 12:46:33 <Sigvatr> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A-Train 12:46:40 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-47-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #openttd 12:50:32 <Zuu> At some distance there will be a maximum point when you will not make more mony but rather less by transporting the gods longer. 12:50:38 <Zuu> goods* 12:50:55 <Zuu> This is because the goods value decrease by time. 12:53:26 <Yexo> you'll make a little less per vehicle, but since you can have more vehicles I think overall you'll get more profit 12:54:51 <andythenorth> hmm 12:55:17 <andythenorth> so in english, 'bulk' and 'bulky' can have quite different meanings 12:55:30 <andythenorth> and this is the core of my gripe 12:55:40 <andythenorth> bulky does not either mean 'oversized' 12:57:55 <andythenorth> so logs are bulky 12:58:06 <andythenorth> scrap metal can be bulky 12:58:10 <andythenorth> sugar cane is bulky 12:58:26 <Sigvatr> how do you break up rail line "blocks" 12:58:29 <Sigvatr> are they between signals? 12:59:15 <andythenorth> these don't flow well in a hopper car: http://i211.photobucket.com/albums/bb167/rayw46/IMG_2606.jpg 12:59:26 <andythenorth> nor do they travel by box car 12:59:43 <frosch123> piecegoods + oversized imo 13:00:11 <frosch123> i.e. they go with the same transporters as transformers :p 13:00:22 <andythenorth> he :) 13:00:36 <andythenorth> this does not flow, nor travel by box car 13:00:36 <andythenorth> http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Ensign/2010618173326_P6180068.jpg 13:00:45 <andythenorth> maybe there should just be a class 'cargo' 13:00:45 <andythenorth> :P 13:01:10 <andythenorth> and all open / flat vehicles implement it 13:01:36 <frosch123> that picture shows bulk+oversized 13:02:43 <frosch123> imo "oversized" is just your "bulky" 13:03:11 <andythenorth> frosch123: that will leave things like schnabel cars transporting wood 13:03:26 <V453000> those models have some insane details :O 13:03:38 <andythenorth> http://southern.railfan.net/schnabel/schnabel.html 13:03:48 <andythenorth> ^ not for wood 13:04:20 <frosch123> not for transformers either 13:05:21 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:05:29 <frosch123> i guess the problem are only the current properties for cargo classes 13:05:41 <frosch123> you can define a wagon to carry bulk and/or oversized stuff 13:05:52 <frosch123> but you cannot define it to only carry oversized stuff that is bulk 13:05:54 <andythenorth> I think the problem is probably solved by two or three new classes 13:06:06 <peter1138> cargo classes don't have properties :D 13:06:15 <andythenorth> probably solvable without any spec change at all 13:06:48 <andythenorth> we already have so much spec around cargos and classes that more is not desirable 13:06:53 <andythenorth> at least, not without deprecating some 13:07:12 <frosch123> i still favor my refittability callback :p 13:07:14 <Elukka> bah. americans get functional model train couplers that look much like the real thing, and they don't have to deal with buffers and close coupler mechanisms! 13:07:17 <frosch123> maybe i should just commit it 13:07:25 <andythenorth> frosch123: I liked your callback 13:07:30 <peter1138> cargo class labels, heh 13:07:31 <andythenorth> I can't remember how it would be used though :) 13:09:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: it allows you to check each cargo individually using various attributes 13:09:46 <frosch123> so you could actually code "oversized, but only when bulk" 13:10:19 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-247-129.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 13:10:29 <frosch123> or "piece goods, but only if the weight per piece is < 1 ton" 13:12:53 *** Brianetta [~brian@212.183.140.9] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:17:58 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think I could solve it with a new class, to be used for bulky cargos (or by abusing 'oversized') 13:18:04 <andythenorth> no cb needed initially 13:18:06 <andythenorth> but... 13:18:09 <andythenorth> it has two problems 13:18:17 <andythenorth> (1) we're not supposed to change default cargos 13:18:34 <andythenorth> (2) I don't stand much chance of getting Pikka to change his sets :( 13:18:40 <andythenorth> so a cb might help there 13:19:32 <andythenorth> it shouldn't be 'bulk + oversized' 13:19:37 <andythenorth> it should be 'piece + oversized' 13:19:39 <andythenorth> or similar 13:21:13 <andythenorth> bulk works for things like coal just fine 13:21:22 <andythenorth> the confusion is that scrap metal, wood etc are not bulk 13:23:26 <andythenorth> I think this is what the 'oversized' class was intended for: http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/railphotog/2010621181756_JD%20Tractor.jpg 13:24:27 <andythenorth> hmm 13:24:38 <andythenorth> 'scrap metal does not travel by hopper' -> wrong :P http://www.railroad-line.com/forum/data/Rick/201062692537_ScrapMetalCar2.jpg 13:24:55 *** Brianetta [~brian@212.183.128.7] has joined #openttd 13:30:05 <andythenorth> what I can't figure is whether to extend 'bulk' to be more specific about fine cargos that can be poured in hoppers / silos 13:30:15 <andythenorth> i.e. an additional class there 13:31:17 <andythenorth> or better to have a new class used with piece goods, which vans etc can _exclude_ 13:31:29 <andythenorth> reusing or similar to oversized 13:31:59 <andythenorth> e.g. this vehicle is only suitable for cargos that can be easily handled and stacked 13:32:20 <andythenorth> I can't NOT for a cargo class can I 13:32:23 <andythenorth> ? 13:32:32 <andythenorth> e.g. set scrap metal as NOT covered 13:33:17 *** valhallasw [~valhallas@vpn91.ext.espci.fr] has joined #openttd 13:33:46 <frosch123> you could also introduce bulk+piecegoods :p 13:33:48 <Yexo> you mean set it as "must not be covered"? 13:34:22 <andythenorth> could be 13:35:02 * andythenorth is reading this ticket, which concludes basically as 'shrug' and 'meh' http://dev.openttdcoop.org/issues/1692 13:37:06 <andythenorth> ultimately, if it takes this much figuring out, other vehicle set authors won't figure it out, unless Big Docs are written 13:37:11 <andythenorth> and nobody reads Big Docs 13:37:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: IMHO you have to let go the desire to treat *every* cargo 100% correct with a dozen cargo classes 13:38:12 <planetmaker> it's a rough classification. It must fail for some cases 13:39:07 <planetmaker> a cargoclass like 'clean' or 'foodish'... why not, might be for bulk a good addition. 13:39:25 <planetmaker> but 'must not be covered' is... funny 13:39:40 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 13:39:42 <planetmaker> anything which needs cover should declare the class 'covered', too 13:41:34 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 13:41:48 <andythenorth> I can let go of that, but I'm still confused :P 13:42:00 <andythenorth> are all cargos either bulk, unitised or liquid? 13:42:24 <planetmaker> what else could be there? 13:42:24 <andythenorth> i.e. they must be in at least on of those sets 13:42:54 <planetmaker> I'd say "yes" 13:43:51 <planetmaker> then they can be in need of clean handling or don't care. 13:44:04 <planetmaker> then they can be in need of refrigeration or not care 13:44:49 <planetmaker> then they care about weather or not (=covered yes/no) 13:45:39 <planetmaker> so milk could be liquid+refrigerate+clean or it could be unitised+refrigerate(+clean) 13:45:47 <andythenorth> and they can be oversized or not 13:45:54 <planetmaker> milk bottles? :-P 13:46:06 <andythenorth> and if they're oversized they don't fit through small doors 13:46:15 <planetmaker> yes 13:46:30 <andythenorth> so the problem is solved 13:46:32 <andythenorth> entirely 13:46:37 <andythenorth> except... 13:46:38 <planetmaker> so it*s 3+1+1+1+1 = 7 13:46:39 <andythenorth> :) 13:46:59 <planetmaker> missing "hazardous" 13:47:38 <andythenorth> so the problems are: 13:47:46 <andythenorth> - we didn't set scrap metal as bulk, we should have 13:48:01 <andythenorth> - few cargos are setting oversized when they should 13:48:07 <peter1138> what a palaver 13:48:11 <andythenorth> :D 13:48:23 <andythenorth> - vehicle set authors are not setting 'exclude oversized' when they should 13:48:39 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 13:49:29 <V453000> there is any hazardous cargo yet? :D 13:49:36 <planetmaker> for the reason "not used". Same there ^ 13:49:46 <planetmaker> andythenorth: then FIRS could start using it 13:49:53 <planetmaker> for e.g. vehicles, fuel oil 13:49:55 <andythenorth> well let's set 'clean' on bit 11 13:49:59 <andythenorth> and start using hazardous 13:49:59 <planetmaker> I'd not attach it to crude oil 13:50:06 <planetmaker> And let's introduce the clean/foodish 13:50:06 <andythenorth> crude oil is inert? :P 13:50:15 <planetmaker> mostly 13:50:17 <frosch123> "hazardous" fits well with "must not be covered" :p 13:50:19 <andythenorth> and move scrap to 'bulk' 13:50:39 <andythenorth> most problems solved 13:51:05 <andythenorth> and maybe possibly adjust the wiki to be more helpful, and imply a bit less that you should have been present on a german forum in 2006 13:51:12 <andythenorth> which is kind of how it feels to me atm 13:53:14 <planetmaker> :-) 13:53:23 *** Macha [~macha@109.76.55.138] has joined #openttd 13:53:30 <andythenorth> planetmaker: are we allowed to set 'oversized' for wood? 13:53:37 <andythenorth> as it's a default cargo, that's not permitted? 13:54:04 <planetmaker> difficult 13:54:13 <planetmaker> grf v8 ;-) 13:54:39 <planetmaker> might indeed be the point to adjust a few defaults there which are only communicated when the grf has v8. 13:54:41 <planetmaker> Not sure... 13:57:10 <frosch123> no idea how that could be done in v8 13:57:22 <frosch123> classes are not only used for refittability, but also in variables 13:57:38 <planetmaker> yes, it's a ... PITA 13:57:41 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 14:00:22 <planetmaker> frosch123: my idea was to report changed default CC for grf >= v8 14:01:03 <planetmaker> it wouldn't matter for newgrf-defined CC for cargos 14:01:30 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: No route to host] 14:01:38 <planetmaker> cargo-class translation table :-P 14:04:21 *** Hyronymus [~chatzilla@s53757898.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #openttd 14:06:12 <Qantourisc> In the ship/train/car overview, what is the symbol under the number ? 14:06:49 <frosch123> profit 14:07:54 * andythenorth wonders why plant fibres are bulk 14:11:16 <andythenorth> ah 14:11:20 <Elukka> surely they are? 14:11:25 <andythenorth> why? 14:11:33 <Elukka> they're a bulk cargo, no? 14:11:33 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 14:11:37 <andythenorth> not sure 14:11:49 <andythenorth> what's your reasoning :) 14:12:33 <Alberth> it'd be easy to chop them in small enough pieces, I think 14:12:45 <Elukka> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulk_cargo 14:13:19 <Alberth> and 'fibres' sound very bendable, even without Bender :p 14:13:25 <Qantourisc> a profit, nice to know 14:15:10 <andythenorth> Elukka: in that list of bulk cargos do you see cotton, flax, hemp etc? :D 14:16:01 <Elukka> what else would it be if not a bulk cargo? 14:16:04 <Elukka> it's certainly not piece goods 14:16:11 <andythenorth> why not? 14:16:23 * andythenorth -> genuinely interested 14:16:24 <Qantourisc> PS, some trains have travel time of a year :) 14:16:36 <Qantourisc> and their profit is often negative 14:16:42 <Qantourisc> any advise there ? 14:16:56 <Qantourisc> Smaller maps ? 14:17:35 <peter1138> faster trains or less distance 14:18:12 <andythenorth> Elukka: why aren't plant fibres piece goods? 14:19:21 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #openttd 14:19:22 <Elukka> i wouldn't think they're transported in boxes 14:19:25 <andythenorth> he 14:19:36 * andythenorth thinks elukka has the same problem as andythenorth 14:19:55 <andythenorth> Elukka: according to the definition, everything that isn't bulk or liquid *must* be piece goods 14:20:13 <andythenorth> ho 14:20:16 <andythenorth> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-bulk_cargo 14:20:26 <peter1138> which definition? 14:20:26 <andythenorth> "Types of neo-bulk cargo goods include heavy machinery, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumber, bundled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel, scrap iron, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana, waste paper, and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Car.[1][4][3] The category has only become recognized as a distinct cargo category in its own right in recent decades" 14:20:37 <Elukka> i'm not sure what the problem is? 14:20:39 <peter1138> neo-bulk? 14:20:42 <andythenorth> peter1138: the definition proposed by planetmaker 14:20:42 <michi_cc> The NewGRF cargo class explicitly says "suitable for pouring", which fibers probably isn't. 14:21:11 <andythenorth> andythenorth: are all cargos either bulk, unitised or liquid? 14:21:11 <andythenorth> [13:42] planetmaker: what else could be there? 14:21:19 <peter1138> pouring as in tipping, i think that means 14:21:27 <peter1138> you could tip fibres 14:22:10 <andythenorth> but you don't transport cotton bales in a hopper car 14:23:55 <andythenorth> well you do in the game at the moment :) 14:26:40 <andythenorth> what class is livestock? 14:26:53 <andythenorth> piece 14:27:02 <andythenorth> Elukka: do livestock travel in boxes? 14:27:09 <andythenorth> he 14:27:11 <andythenorth> chickens do 14:29:24 <Elukka> well, i dunno 14:29:24 <Elukka> if you want it to be cotton bales define it as piece goods 14:29:24 *** Br33z4hSlut5 [~static.kp@92.68.154.34] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 14:29:38 <andythenorth> I'm going to 14:30:02 <andythenorth> :) 14:30:22 <andythenorth> Elukka: thanks, you have helped me figure out some things 14:31:04 <andythenorth> specifically, there is no point moaning about classes being broken when the 'problem' is simply caused by trying to keep compatibility with ECS 14:31:15 <andythenorth> which gains nothing 14:39:06 <Qantourisc> andythenorth: if they want to be compatible 14:39:14 <Qantourisc> i recommend they share their classes code :) 14:39:47 <andythenorth> there's no gain from the compatibility, except some possible cargo graphics support 14:40:49 <Qantourisc> unless you want to run them at the same time ... 14:40:51 <Qantourisc> sounds confusing :p 14:41:06 <Sigvatr> i'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly signals and "blocks" work 14:41:09 <Sigvatr> what defines a block? 14:41:17 <andythenorth> you would have to rewrite ottd to run them at the same time ;) 14:41:32 <andythenorth> FIRS uses all the available cargo slots 14:42:04 <Qantourisc> s/int8/int16/g ? 14:42:49 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: a block is connected railtrack not blocked by a signal (note, some signals only count one way) (i hope i got that correct) 14:43:11 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: note: connected does not mean trains can go from A to B 14:43:26 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: but as soon as the rails connect, it's connected for the "block" 14:43:45 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: also note the 1 way signals, also important in some cases 14:44:57 <michi_cc> Qantourisc: Small correction, a signal block always ends at a signal, regardless of the signal type/direction. 14:45:06 * andythenorth is now feeling chipper about cargo classes once more 14:45:08 <Qantourisc> michi_cc: a ok, my bad :) 14:45:35 <andythenorth> there is only one issue I can't figure out, and that's things like logs and sugarcane 14:46:19 <andythenorth> which shouldn't travel by van 14:47:23 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has joined #openttd 14:47:29 *** kaparen [~aabbcc@c-b063e455.94-17-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #openttd 14:49:11 <andythenorth> but are not bulk 14:49:17 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 14:49:19 *** Mucht [~Martin@chello084115143107.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #openttd 14:49:30 <andythenorth> and maybe they should just set 'oversized' or a similar new class 14:51:04 <andythenorth> he 14:51:10 <andythenorth> is sugar beet 'clean'? :D 14:52:58 <Sigvatr> ok, so basically a block is the rail line between two signals? 14:53:08 <michi_cc> andythenorth: If I look out of the window at the heap there I'd definitely say not clean :) I don't want all that dirty in my food. 14:53:31 * andythenorth figured the same 14:53:32 <andythenorth> :) 14:53:42 <andythenorth> does sugar beet travel in mining trucks? 14:53:43 <andythenorth> :P 14:54:30 <michi_cc> It could, I just don't know any farmer who owns a mining truck :p 14:55:09 <andythenorth> I have pictures of sugar *cane* travelling by mining truck in Hawaii 14:55:25 <andythenorth> I think a mining truck would get stuck in a typical beet field] 14:55:34 <andythenorth> an expensive muddy paperweight 14:55:56 <andythenorth> michi_cc: this is what's needed for beets: http://www.roadtransport.com/blogs/big-lorry-blog/2011/11/dont-say-zetros-say-secutor-th.html 14:55:57 <andythenorth> :) 14:56:04 <andythenorth> and that is...possible for HEQS 14:58:24 <Sigvatr> does the ttd music ever get boring? 14:59:05 <michi_cc> andythenorth: There are special harvesters for sugar beet here, but the beet is only dumped into a heap next to some farm track by them and later moved to processing by a truck. 14:59:31 <andythenorth> so they run to the edge of the field + stockpile? 14:59:34 <andythenorth> makes sense 15:00:37 <michi_cc> Yes, the sugar refineries can't take all the sugar beet thats ripe at the same time so it has to be stockpiled for later processing. 15:01:26 *** Brianetta [~brian@212.183.128.7] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 15:02:04 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has joined #openttd 15:02:23 <andythenorth> unless there are rabid objections, I'm going to add a class for 'won't fit through small openings, e.g. large logs, bundles of sugarcane, etc, and also is likely to roll about so needs stakes or other restraining methods' 15:02:29 <andythenorth> is there a snappy version of that? 15:02:44 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 15:02:54 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> unless there are rabid objections <-- don't tell MB then :p 15:03:30 <michi_cc> Or really go for neo-bulk. 15:03:56 <michi_cc> That has at least some real economic background to point mb to. 15:05:03 <andythenorth> I really don't care what MB thinks about it 15:06:42 <supermop> any of you guys think the euro is about to fall significantly? 15:06:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't quite remember my previous thougths on the matter... 15:07:00 <andythenorth> I just chose not to get paid in ⬠for my business 15:07:05 * andythenorth is part of the problem :P 15:07:08 <supermop> i want to buy a integrated amplifier from germany, but will wait if it might nose dive 15:07:39 <supermop> probably won't fall in the next 3 hours: http://www.ebay.de/itm/Braun-Hi-Fi-Componenten-Atelier-Serie-/110765495096?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item19ca235338 15:07:40 <Sigvatr> so are any new features planned for openttd, or is it just bug fixing? 15:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Sigvatr: have you been sleeping the past few days? 15:08:35 <Sigvatr> i have been playing openttd for less than 24 hours :| 15:08:42 <Sigvatr> in fact i've never even played a tycoon game before 15:09:02 <andythenorth> supermop: your currency is $? or yen? 15:09:24 <supermop> ha i wish i had assets in yen right now 15:09:39 <supermop> usd for me 15:10:46 <supermop> i want to give up on my current set up, and go for integrated amplifier, and i love the rams pieces, 15:11:03 <supermop> the ateier being the only marginally modern one made though 15:11:08 <supermop> atelier 15:12:22 <supermop> the atelier stuff also has the advantage of a glut of examples surviving in germany, so the prices are quite low 15:12:52 <supermop> typically much cheaper than modern audiophile solid state gear 15:13:35 <andythenorth> supermop: if the ⬠collapses, it's likely that most currencies will follow 15:13:47 <andythenorth> unless there's a flight to usd for stability 15:13:51 <andythenorth> but currently the flight is to yen 15:14:50 <supermop> bank of japan desperately wants yen to fall though to try to boost exporting (thus japanese heavy industry), but its not working so far 15:15:10 <supermop> and euro collapsing will make that worse 15:15:53 * andythenorth will bbl 15:16:05 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 15:22:20 <Sigvatr> towns accept any cargo, right? 15:22:30 <Alberth> no 15:22:54 <Alberth> open a station build window, and wave over a city to see what it accepts 15:23:23 <Alberth> alternatively, use the '?' button and click at houses :) 15:24:45 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: japanese economy has been on a standstill for decades now... 15:25:53 <Alberth> if you click at a station, the station window will also tell you what it accepts 15:26:06 *** confound [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has quit [Server closed connection] 15:26:08 *** confound [~hdp@glaive.weftsoar.net] has joined #openttd 15:26:17 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: finally a sustainable economy :p 15:26:27 <supermop> it has 15:26:33 <supermop> but the yen is painfully strong 15:27:12 <supermop> especially painfull for me - who wants to take another trip there to see a show on at the mori museum 15:27:20 <Eddi|zuHause> because they totally lost the race of the USD and EUR which each keep trying to drop faster than the other 15:27:37 <supermop> the first time i went there the yen was 120 to the dollar, now its 75 15:27:43 <supermop> so i cant justify it 15:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why they're milking this euro-crisis as much as they can 15:28:32 <supermop> although if i can get there i can get informational interviews at a couple japanese architecture firm where i have connections.... 15:28:37 <Eddi|zuHause> if they solved it, the euro would skyrocket, and the export economy would suffer 15:28:42 <supermop> wouldnt mind being paid in yen for a few years 15:28:59 *** Katje [~Kitty@tao.quixotic.eu] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 15:29:36 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a village in switzerland that technically belongs to germany. they use swiss money, but pay german taxes. 15:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> then suddenly the swiss franc got incredibly strong... and their taxes grew equally, but their wages didn't 15:30:53 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23120 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (6 files): -Feature: [NoAI] Support for refit orders. 15:33:51 <supermop> hmm playing music i like to sing along to in the shop was a bad idea 15:34:02 <supermop> good thing there are no customers in here 15:35:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if having no customers is a good thing, i understand why you have money problems :p 15:40:49 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 15:42:57 <supermop> actually we dont - the us business is carrying about half the company with only 10% of the employees 15:43:16 <supermop> we are mostly web based, but we use our office as a show room 15:43:39 <supermop> and new yorkers seem not to start early on saturdays, so the mornings are quiet 15:46:35 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 15:47:22 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 15:50:46 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 15:54:42 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 15:56:34 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has quit [Server closed connection] 15:56:38 *** ccfreak2k [~ccfreak2k@haqua.4chan.fm] has joined #openttd 15:58:12 <supermop> i need a mac book air sleeve 15:58:26 *** EyeMWing [~Wing@c-68-33-226-154.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Server closed connection] 15:58:40 *** EyeMWing [~Wing@c-68-33-226-154.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #openttd 16:02:16 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has quit [Server closed connection] 16:02:22 *** Belugas [~belugas@216.191.111.237] has joined #openttd 16:02:26 *** mode/#openttd [+o Belugas] by ChanServ 16:02:38 *** Macha [~macha@109.76.55.138] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 16:08:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i have books, air, and sleeves... not sure about the mac part... 16:14:01 *** perk11 [~perk11@188.32.29.238] has quit [Quit: Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org] 16:18:10 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 16:23:27 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 16:24:37 <supermop> work replaced my mac book pro with it 16:26:28 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 16:30:12 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-055-168.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has joined #openttd 16:30:45 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 16:32:45 <andythenorth> hola 16:32:47 <andythenorth> he 16:33:03 <Alberth> hi 16:33:12 <andythenorth> "It is difficult to construct categories into which one can carefully classify all cargoes" :D 16:33:16 <andythenorth> http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=iUIe8LVs11sC&pg=PA91&lpg=PA91&dq=neo+bulk+cargo&source=bl&ots=INw0FomBh-&sig=_nAaQWIUJRAWVi6zhI-bTJ2kXo4&hl=en&ei=U2S1TvfWAZSZ8gO6qaHIBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=neo%20bulk%20cargo&f=false 16:34:07 <andythenorth> but I think I have solved all my gripes :) 16:35:42 <supermop> cool 16:39:45 <andythenorth> I don't know if it needs to be part of grf v8 16:41:48 <michi_cc> Adding cargo classes definitely not. 16:42:31 <andythenorth> changing classes of Wood? 16:42:42 <michi_cc> Changing existing cargo classes of default cargoes is a basically a no-go, even with v8 as they are just used in too many places. 16:43:36 <michi_cc> The only thing that will probably work is *adding* a new cargo class to Wood. 16:47:13 <andythenorth> that's my proposal :) 16:47:16 <andythenorth> changing / adding /s 16:47:21 <andythenorth> add neo-bulk 16:47:31 <andythenorth> for authors who wish to make use of it 16:47:35 <supermop> can i say haben gehast? 16:47:41 <supermop> i forget how i write that 16:47:45 <michi_cc> so WOOD would be piece+neo bulk? 16:47:46 <supermop> in 3rd person 16:48:09 <michi_cc> That change should be okay as no set would test for neo bulk yet. 16:48:18 <supermop> for past tense of have 16:48:47 <andythenorth> yes 16:49:06 <andythenorth> I would start testing for them :) 16:49:12 <andythenorth> and add them to FIRS Wood 16:49:46 <michi_cc> supermop: hassen or haben? 16:50:18 <supermop> haben 16:50:19 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Propose that a the newgrf developer forum then, there's no need to couple that to grfv8 though. 16:50:40 <andythenorth> I'm writing a post now :) 16:50:45 <michi_cc> er hat gehabt / sie haben gehabt depending if singular or plural 16:51:11 <supermop> i want to say ich wunsche dass Sie eine gute Herbst gehabt? 16:51:34 <michi_cc> That sentence doesn't make sense. 16:51:41 <supermop> writing to an older guy who certainly deserves Sie 16:51:54 <supermop> 'i hope you have had a good autumn"? 16:53:47 <michi_cc> "Ich hoffe, Sie hatten einen guten Herbst" for formal writing (Spoken also "Ich hoffe, Sie haben einen guten Herbst gehabt") 16:54:19 <supermop> oh, thanks 16:54:52 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has quit [Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.] 16:55:55 <michi_cc> present perfect as a tense form is mostly used colloquially/as spoken language, but the proper formal tense is preterit. 16:57:44 * andythenorth thinks it finally made sense: http://www.tt-forums.net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=53654&p=978777#p978777 17:02:03 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Reads sane 17:02:26 <andythenorth> :) 17:02:53 * andythenorth is now lost in a book about containers 17:03:03 <andythenorth> basically anything that will go in a 20 foot box gets containerised 17:03:06 <andythenorth> including bulk cargos 17:03:31 <andythenorth> grain etc 17:04:46 <michi_cc> For bulk cargoes I guess weight is a problem, AFAIK the weight limit of containers isn't that high comparatively. 17:05:39 <andythenorth> steel coils present a problem 17:05:47 <andythenorth> I've seen pictures of them falling through the bottom 17:05:54 <andythenorth> not good in an 8 high stack of boxes :) 17:19:01 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 17:23:05 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i wouldn't use "gehabt haben". sounds like you translated an english sentence 1:1... 17:23:15 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 17:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> you could say "Ich wÃŒnsche, einen guten Herbst gehabt zu haben", but mostly with an ironic subtext :p 17:40:34 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 17:46:38 *** glx [glx@2a01:e35:2f59:c7c0:9970:a62c:7355:30f2] has joined #openttd 17:46:41 *** mode/#openttd [+v glx] by ChanServ 17:54:25 <andythenorth> he 17:55:00 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Quit: TschÃŒÃ] 17:55:16 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:00:40 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:05:13 *** pjpe [ade6a119@ircip2.mibbit.com] has joined #openttd 18:07:31 <Sigvatr> how do i see chat history in multiplayer 18:07:35 <Sigvatr> or make it permanently visible 18:09:01 <supermop> google wants me to say "Zwischen den Regie und das Atelier VerstÀrker, tun, die Sie bevorzugen?" 18:14:01 <Alberth> Sigvatr: I think it is in the console 18:14:43 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-247-129.as13285.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 18:14:57 <Alberth> http://wiki.openttd.org/Console <-- this console :) 18:16:35 <Sigvatr> is it possible to dig tunnels underneath other people's railroads 18:17:47 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:25:33 *** |Jeroen| [~jeroen@d5152B25B.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 18:29:05 <andythenorth> \o/ 18:36:14 <Alberth> why not? 18:37:30 *** dfox [~dfox@ip-94-113-17-246.net.upcbroadband.cz] has joined #openttd 18:38:00 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has quit [Quit: - nbs-irc 2.39 - www.nbs-irc.net -] 18:40:10 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 18:42:57 *** Zeknurn [~Zeknurn@hd9483b29.seveveb.dyn.perspektivbredband.net] has joined #openttd 18:45:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23121 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs): 18:45:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0: 18:45:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 18 changes by lorenzodv 18:45:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 90 changes by eloekset 18:45:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by eloekset 18:45:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: serbian - 17 changes by etran 18:45:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: tamil - 15 changes by aswn 18:56:22 *** Zuu [~Zuu@h-114-141.a98.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #openttd 19:01:46 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-247-129.as13285.net] has joined #openttd 19:07:14 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: He who can look into the future, has a brighter future to look into] 19:17:09 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you thinking to refine 'oversized' *and* have 'neo-bulk'? Or just to refine 'oversized' ? 19:18:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not thinking anything, just showing options 19:18:43 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 19:27:23 *** TWerkhoven [~twerkhove@cpc14-linl7-2-0-cust28.sgyl.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 19:33:27 * andythenorth contemplates whether to try and fix tram offsets, or redraw the tram tracks to be where the trams actually go :P 19:42:18 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I understand your point about bit 10 class now 19:42:25 <andythenorth> it's something I had been puzzling about 19:42:58 <andythenorth> oversized and overweight are not the same thing 19:43:08 <andythenorth> two different dimensions... 19:44:49 <andythenorth> http://www.aslimasti.com/images/fun/it_happens/heavy_load_on_truck_cranes_sugarcane_india.jpg 19:46:21 <Alberth> lol! 19:47:24 <Alberth> you will get many glitches with such loads, I guess :( 19:49:49 <andythenorth> :) 19:53:32 <Qantourisc> hmmm stock disapears after a while 19:53:58 <Qantourisc> that picture is old 20:00:15 *** Alberth [~hat@a82-95-164-127.adsl.xs4all.nl] has left #openttd [] 20:01:36 <Qantourisc> I keep adding trains to my line :p 20:09:41 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 20:23:02 <Terkhen> hi 20:24:06 <Qantourisc> Terkhen: hi 20:26:48 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 20:30:24 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 20:37:47 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 20:41:50 <Zuu> Qantourisc: Stock dissapearing, as with the truck above it falling off? :-p 20:42:31 *** DDR_ [~chatzilla@142.179.78.88] has joined #openttd 20:43:26 <Qantourisc> :) 20:43:28 <Qantourisc> no 20:43:31 <Qantourisc> but no time now 20:45:19 *** Rob110178 [~chatzilla@75-130-177-153.static.hlrg.nc.charter.com] has joined #openttd 20:58:01 <Sigvatr> man 20:58:03 <Sigvatr> signals are fucking confusing 20:58:09 <Sigvatr> how often does someone complain about that 20:59:02 <Elukka> just use path signals everywhere 20:59:30 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: often, you'll get the hang of it :) 21:00:00 <Elukka> there's niche cases where the rest are still useful but for now (and most times in the future too) you'll just want path signals 21:00:28 <Elukka> i think path signals should get a prominent, bigger button than the rest and the tooltip should indicate that they're the best, basic type of signal 21:00:47 <Sigvatr> basically i had one long rail line and wanted multiple trains to be able to use it in either direction, so i extended some parts to have a second line that entered and exited the main line and had enough room for a train to wait if it needed to 21:01:20 <Sigvatr> i didn't know how to make the signals work so if two trains were approaching one another they would either turn around, or just hang 21:04:27 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73D6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 21:04:39 *** Eddi|zuHause [~johekr@p54B73D6B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #openttd 21:04:41 <andythenorth> oh dear 21:04:48 * andythenorth smells a forum bunfight 21:06:55 <Hyronymus> I smell learning to read clocks 21:07:49 <andythenorth> for moi? 21:08:07 <Terkhen> a fight about what? 21:08:11 *** Elukka [Elukka@89-166-103-135.bb.dnainternet.fi] has quit [] 21:08:23 <andythenorth> lighting :D 21:08:29 <andythenorth> my favourite 21:09:36 <Hyronymus> no, for purno, andythenorth 21:09:47 <Terkhen> I foresee a lengthy discussion that achieves nothing, but not a fight 21:09:51 <Hyronymus> typically a digital clock generation 21:10:03 <Hyronymus> I foresee a verdict soon 21:10:06 <Hyronymus> :P 21:10:31 <Terkhen> for a given set, yes 21:10:44 <Terkhen> but probably not for all sets :P 21:10:50 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@95.76.27.160] has joined #openttd 21:10:59 <Hyronymus> true 21:11:17 <Hyronymus> and frankly I don't mind 21:11:33 <Terkhen> :) 21:11:49 * Terkhen is oblivious to small lighting issues anyways 21:13:55 <Terkhen> good night 21:14:52 *** sla_ro|master [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 21:25:49 *** Sigvatr [sig@114.73.66.175] has quit [] 21:29:47 *** Brianetta [~brian@188-220-91-30.zone11.bethere.co.uk] has joined #openttd 21:50:22 *** Adambean [AdamR@82.hosts.reece-eu.net] has quit [Quit: Gone fishing] 21:52:04 *** hanf [~Klaus@host-89-240-247-129.as13285.net] has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer] 21:52:30 *** DayDreamer [~DayDreame@ip-86-49-59-25.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 21:55:08 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:05:26 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has joined #openttd 22:20:25 *** andythenorth [~Andy@cpc15-aztw25-2-0-cust3.aztw.cable.virginmedia.com] has quit [Quit: andythenorth] 22:28:24 <Wolf01> 'night 22:28:28 *** Wolf01 [~wolf01@host48-239-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Quit: Once again the world is quick to bury me.] 22:31:12 *** Kurimus [~stabbity@dsl-tkubrasgw3-fe93dd00-34.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 22:37:43 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 [~Flex@i59F6C3B7.versanet.de] has joined #openttd 22:40:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23122 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix (23120): Silence GCC warning. 22:43:11 *** HerzogDeXtEr [~Flex@i59F6AE24.versanet.de] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 22:46:41 <Zuu> Thumbs up michi_cc for the NoAI support for your new and interesting feature. 22:47:14 <michi_cc> Zuu: It's not only for my feature. There was no support for refit orders at all. 22:48:17 <Zuu> afaik NoAI also lacks support for timetables which would be interesting for data collection for trip times. But *someone* has to implement it first. 22:48:25 <Zuu> :-) 22:49:35 <michi_cc> And half the order stuff might be broken anyway as it seems to not properly handle implicit orders, but that's something for somebody with more NoAI knowledge. 22:50:26 <Zuu> Hmm, is there more problems with it not hiding away implicit orders than what was just fixed some days/weeks ago? 22:52:12 <michi_cc> At least AIOrder::ResolveOrderPosition is not always taking implicit orders into account, and most of the Set* functions don't even call that function at all. 22:53:11 <Zuu> So using CURENT_ORDER is kind of broken. But not when using explicit order positions? 22:57:12 <michi_cc> The other way around, ResolveOrderPosition does complicated stuff for CURENT_ORDER and exactly nothing for explicit positions. 22:59:01 <michi_cc> And as far as I can see all Cmd* functions take the order offset including implicit orders. 23:01:17 *** supermop [~daniel_er@rrcs-72-43-171-87.nyc.biz.rr.com] has left #openttd [] 23:01:33 <Zuu> From what I can see, the "complicated stuf" in ResolveOrderPosition will make it so that it return an order position that doesn't include implicit orders. 23:02:45 <Zuu> But you are right that the order position returned by the Resolve function is sent just into DoCommand. 23:03:01 <michi_cc> That would mean it is doing exactly the opposite of what the Cmd*Order functions want, the offset into the Order* list in memory, which of course includes implicit orders. 23:03:42 <Zuu> Indeed 23:11:29 <Zuu> The bug can however not be in ResolveOrderPosition, as it is available to AIs through the API and should thus return indexes without implicit orders. 23:12:02 <Zuu> I was wondering if the DoCommand thing in NoAI would do the conversion there, but I can't find any such thing. 23:16:16 *** snorre [~snorre@c1A0FBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has joined #openttd 23:18:02 *** snorre_ [~snorre@c1A0FBF51.dhcp.bluecom.no] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds] 23:20:15 <frosch123> Zuu: do you think any ai modifies exisiting orders of vehicles? 23:20:38 <frosch123> or do they rather assign them only once after purchase? 23:22:32 <Zuu> I don't even have this problem as I always use non-stop orders. 23:23:29 <Zuu> If they use more than two stations in their order list they might insert or remove orders over time. 23:23:36 <Zuu> PAXLink does this. 23:25:07 <Zuu> I wrote a class which models a order list (with only a subset of all possible features) but with the posibility to Apply this model to a vehicle in a way that current order doesn't get changed unless that station has been removed. 23:25:57 <Zuu> So yes, some AIs does that. 23:26:20 <Zuu> But I would guess that AIs written by experienced (O)TTD players use non-stop orders. 23:34:07 *** sla_ro|vista [slaco@95.76.27.160] has quit [] 23:36:45 *** KritiK [~Maxim@95-27-47-8.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit [Quit: Leaving] 23:41:53 *** Rezt [~Rezt@81-178-195-125.dsl.pipex.com] has joined #openttd 23:42:33 *** pugi [~pugi@dyndsl-091-096-055-168.ewe-ip-backbone.de] has quit [Quit: I reject your reality and substitute my own] 23:53:24 *** KouDy [~KouDy@ip-89-176-220-236.net.upcbroadband.cz] has quit [Quit: Leaving.] 23:54:09 <frosch123> night 23:54:13 *** frosch123 [~frosch@frnk-590fc098.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Remote host closed the connection] 23:56:54 *** Celestar [~dax@dslb-094-216-032-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #openttd