Log for #openttd on 5th November 2011:
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00:19:39  * Zuu pulls his hair and figure out that he need to change some parts of how globals are stored + accessed in a mid-size program.
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00:29:15  <Rob110178> Hi all
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00:37:52  <Zuu> Hello Rob110178
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01:52:08  <Rob110178> For some reason signaling is still confusing the daylights out of me... Grrr
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07:14:39  <Terkhen> good morning
07:15:23  <Terkhen> Rob110178: signalling is confusing... I learned by checking examples at the openttd and openttdcoop wikis
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07:43:03  <Qantourisc> What font-types does openttd eat ?
07:43:12  <Qantourisc> xfonts type or ?
07:48:07  <Qantourisc> ok freefonts too nice
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07:57:57  <andythenorth> wtf
07:58:00  <andythenorth> auto-refit
07:58:01  <andythenorth> :o
07:58:08  * andythenorth smells a FISH update soon
08:02:53  <planetmaker> and heqs!
08:03:08  <planetmaker> moin also :-)
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08:04:07  <planetmaker> but auto-update is VERY awesome
08:04:15  <planetmaker> *auto-refit
08:05:41  <planetmaker> hm... conditional orders now need additions ideally: if cargo==GOOD goto <blah>
08:05:59  <planetmaker> if cargo==FMSP goto <blub>
08:06:38  <Eddi|zuHause> don't think that's a workable idea (gameplay wise)
08:06:54  <Eddi|zuHause> what if half the wagons are GOOD and the other half FMSP?
08:08:09  <planetmaker> it'd need options like "at least one wagon" and "all wagons", similar to full load all and full load any
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08:08:50  <planetmaker> and I think it's a workable idea. Like when I pickup cargos A and B, then I want to bring them to their respective destinations A' and B'
08:09:13  <planetmaker> so I want to check whether I have to go to A' and B' or only one of them
08:09:35  <Eddi|zuHause> i rather see autorefit in the context of cargo destinations
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08:10:04  <Eddi|zuHause> then the cargo decides whether the train goes in the right direction, not the train
08:10:48  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see it useful without
08:11:39  <planetmaker> with destinations it's even more useful. But I see much use also without
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08:12:14  <planetmaker> like when you bring cargo from a transfer station to a ore smelter or so
08:12:45  <Eddi|zuHause> question: can autorefit change individual vehicles of an articulated consist (e.g. 2-part tram can be half passengers, half tourist, or heqs tram with individual cargo for each wagon)?
08:14:16  <planetmaker> it can change individual wagons. Not sure about articulated parts
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08:18:30  <andythenorth> so auto-refit chooses the most waiting cargo?
08:19:46  <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather have it some-of-everything
08:19:54  <andythenorth> there's no look ahead in the station list to see if the loaded cargo is accepted?
08:20:17  <andythenorth> so I can load coal at A, and ship it meaninglessly between A and B :)
08:20:22  <Eddi|zuHause> no, that only works with cargo destinations
08:20:42  <andythenorth> acceptance doesn't demand cargo destinations
08:20:48  <andythenorth> look in the station acceptance
08:20:59  <Eddi|zuHause> but you'd break feeder systems then
08:21:09  <andythenorth> yes
08:21:11  <andythenorth> true
08:21:18  <andythenorth> could be a different style of gameplay...
08:21:36  <andythenorth> I can see the obvious applications of this with destinations
08:21:49  <andythenorth> trying to figure how it works with non-destination games
08:21:57  <andythenorth> I should just patch FISH for it :P
08:22:01  <andythenorth> no time right now
08:22:27  <andythenorth> either way, it's nice :)
08:22:39  <andythenorth> more evidence for OpenTTD Is Clearly Not Dying :D
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08:23:05  <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can also station-refit to an explicitly chosen cargo
08:23:17  <planetmaker> instead of available cargo
08:23:37  <andythenorth> that has been much-discussed before :)
08:23:45  <andythenorth> it is good
08:23:55  <planetmaker> and if there's less cargo combined from types A and B, both will be carried, if individual parts can be refit
08:24:08  <planetmaker> as said, not sure about articulated. But for trains it works
08:24:13  <planetmaker> if non-articulated
08:24:15  * andythenorth wonders who's working on partial-refit for ships :P
08:24:47  <planetmaker> hehe
08:24:56  <andythenorth> planetmaker: from reading the diff, I think it's unlikely to work with articulated road vehicles
08:25:02  <andythenorth> (for partial refit)
08:25:18  <andythenorth> but refit-at-station is still good
08:25:23  <andythenorth> especially for ships
08:25:33  <planetmaker> for every vehicle
08:25:59  <planetmaker> why should I go to a depot when I want to load tractors instead of bulldozers?
08:26:12  <planetmaker> Or fuel oil barrels instead of oil barrels?
08:26:35  <andythenorth> indeed
08:29:00  <andythenorth> fmsp -> farm -> refit to wool etc
08:29:05  <planetmaker> yup
08:29:17  <planetmaker> very sensible suddenly
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08:42:43  <planetmaker> and it makes not-updated NewGRFs IMHO much less attractive to play with...
08:42:59  <planetmaker> a side-effect which is if mixed quality
08:43:27  <Alberth> hi planetmaker
08:43:36  <planetmaker> though... probably much more positive than bad.
08:43:39  <planetmaker> good morning Alberth
08:43:46  <andythenorth> hmm
08:43:55  <Alberth> hi andy :)
08:44:17  <andythenorth> a set of shiny new features could be cause for a lot of newgrf updates
08:44:32  <andythenorth> what backwards compatibility might we want to get rid of for v8? :)
08:44:40  <andythenorth> what's causing trouble?
08:45:36  <planetmaker> andythenorth: ... <-- 10 days old or so
08:45:46  <planetmaker> changes in trunk wrt stable
08:45:50  <planetmaker> 80% NewGRF ;-)
08:46:27  <andythenorth> we debated something a few months ago at length
08:46:41  <andythenorth> something that would be desirable, but break older grfs
08:46:43  <andythenorth> I forget what
08:46:47  <planetmaker> the grfv8 thread might be the place to not it :-)
08:46:57  <planetmaker> hight levels?
08:47:00  <andythenorth> no
08:47:00  <planetmaker> *height
08:47:03  <andythenorth> not that
08:47:19  <peter1138> road types
08:47:25  <peter1138> vehicles in vehicles
08:47:29  <andythenorth> that breaks older grfs? :o
08:47:30  <peter1138> multistop docks
08:47:30  <andythenorth> :P
08:47:41  <andythenorth> peter1138: you are a bot imitating me
08:47:57  <andythenorth> might have been something to do with changing grfs in game
08:48:02  <andythenorth> which is still a bad idea
08:48:14  <andythenorth> but not being able to change parameters in game is also a bad idea
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08:48:27  <andythenorth> maybe I suggested removing the ability for grfs to disable
08:48:32  <andythenorth> that is a bad idea too
08:48:42  <peter1138> you can change parameters in game, with the appropriate setting, can't you?
08:48:46  <andythenorth> I can yes
08:48:52  <andythenorth> 'normals' can't
08:48:52  <peter1138> well then
08:49:04  <andythenorth> maybe I proposed changing cargo class definitions
08:49:12  <andythenorth> that would be an interesting bunfight with MB
08:49:49  <andythenorth> hmm
08:50:02  <andythenorth> whatever it was, I think planetmaker even sent me a pm about it
08:50:14  <andythenorth> or maybe I just suggested banning newgrfs that weren't GPL
08:50:42  <planetmaker> :-D
08:50:51  <planetmaker> cargo classes...
08:50:56  * andythenorth has memory of a rabbiy
08:52:15  <peter1138> there are 8 fixed cargo classes
08:52:23  <peter1138> you can use the rest how you see fit
08:52:36  <peter1138> of course, not if you want compatibility ;)
08:53:03  <peter1138> but the upper 8 is not part of the spec, so no spec change is needed
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09:04:42  <Elukka> awww yeah
09:04:43  <Elukka>
09:04:49  <Elukka> kerbal space program has a moon now!
09:09:39  <Qantourisc> Why is openttd so easy on the money ?
09:10:02  <Qantourisc> once you get rolling
09:10:06  <Qantourisc> it gets out of control
09:11:51  <planetmaker> did you try how easy it is on a 128^2 map?
09:14:30  <Elukka> because it doesn't really model business
09:15:16  <Elukka> if you just make things more expensive all it will do is slightly postpone that part of the game where you have practically infinite money
09:15:28  <Elukka> there was a project for a new business model but i don't think anything came out of it
09:15:32  <Elukka> i think it'd be interesting
09:18:49  <planetmaker> Qantourisc: you can also employ a base cost newgrf which allows to adjust costs and running costs in a manner to increase the challange
09:20:32  <Alberth> Elukka: it is far from trivial; you need to make money otherwise you cannot play. Once you can make money, it is inevitable you make more money when you grow.
09:21:04  <Alberth> Elukka: in other words, you need a new element that hits you harder as you grow
09:21:09  <Elukka> yeah
09:21:12  <Elukka> it's all but trivial
09:21:26  <Elukka> real business, as well as games with a more elaborate business model, retain challenge even after you have a big company :P
09:21:35  <Elukka> i don't even know how you'd do it though
09:23:42  <peter1138> in theory, competition would affect your profits
09:23:44  <peter1138> but it doesn't :P
09:24:22  <Elukka> yeah but it's far from the only factor
09:25:03  <Alberth> peter1138: in MP, it might
09:25:29  <peter1138> it doesn't
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09:32:20  <planetmaker> it does. A little
09:32:39  <planetmaker> depends on how "friendly" the competition is.
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09:46:07  <andythenorth> hmm
09:46:10  * andythenorth ponders evil
09:46:18  <andythenorth> flag to prevent a ship entering locks
09:46:55  <andythenorth> e.g. for large ships
09:47:04  <andythenorth> this would force the building of sea level routes, or smaller ships
09:47:21  <planetmaker> rather prevent running on rivers then
09:47:36  <andythenorth> that's plausible too
09:47:44  <andythenorth> although I can do that with speed fraction
09:47:47  <andythenorth> (might suck)
09:48:46  <Qantourisc> hmmm
09:49:08  <Qantourisc> I think the best thread to your money is breaking trains :)
09:49:47  <Qantourisc> and a bigger penality for not having your network running smooth
09:52:43  <Qantourisc> I think the best course is making sure you only get a slim profit.
09:52:51  <Qantourisc> But yes competition too would be nice.
09:53:01  <Qantourisc> problem with them is ... they build a lot in the way :)
09:53:18  <Qantourisc> And there is no track-renting to solve that :)
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09:55:12  * andythenorth is currently excited about working on FISH and HEQS :)
09:55:21  <planetmaker> :-)
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10:04:22  <Wolf01> hello
10:04:35  <andythenorth> lo
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10:06:10  * andythenorth however does not have enough hours per day for working on FISH and HEQS :o
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10:08:40  <andythenorth> hmm
10:08:43  * andythenorth missed r22293
10:09:06  <andythenorth> now I have to work on CHIPS too :o
10:09:22  <Terkhen> bbl
10:09:35  <andythenorth> hmm
10:09:38  <Wolf01> I read "chimps" gah...
10:09:46  <andythenorth> maybe I forgot it rather than missed it
10:09:50  <andythenorth> CHIPS supports it
10:10:52  <Alberth> one done, two to go :)
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10:15:30  <__ln__> it's the 5th of november
10:15:36  <andythenorth> fireworks grf?
10:15:42  <andythenorth> newobject, animated palette
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10:17:01  <__ln__> gunpowder cargo
10:18:07  <planetmaker> I still like alberth's suggestion: 1 cargo unit produced every 5 years. Transportable only in a very expensive container with vmax = 5km/h. Delivery revenue... like rotten cheese
10:20:23  <Alberth> __ln__: sparkles mine in toyland
10:22:20  <planetmaker> :-)
10:22:30  <andythenorth> planetmaker: sounds like nuclear fuel :P
10:22:37  <planetmaker> :-P
10:23:00  <planetmaker> obviously it was also clear without re-citing the cargo name :-)
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10:23:09  <planetmaker> cookie for andy :-P
10:24:10  <andythenorth> an oft-suggested cargo
10:24:13  <andythenorth> never implemented
10:24:19  * andythenorth wonders what's wrong with cargo classes
10:24:28  <andythenorth> bulk
10:24:30  <Alberth> hence my realistic suggestion :)
10:25:09  <andythenorth>
10:25:19  * andythenorth wonders if FIRS sets bit 10 for any cargos
10:25:27  <andythenorth> or bit 8
10:27:19  <planetmaker> probably not
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10:28:02  <andythenorth> hmm
10:28:38  <Alberth> do we even have such cargo?
10:29:12  <planetmaker> nope
10:29:13  <andythenorth> maybe we should
10:29:21  <andythenorth> chemicals are hazardous?
10:29:23  <planetmaker> only as add-on, IMHO
10:29:23  <andythenorth> as is petrol
10:29:48  <planetmaker> though... chemicals as hazardous.... Might make sense
10:29:57  <planetmaker> petrol... maybe... not sure
10:29:59  <andythenorth> are they OR or AND when refitting?
10:30:05  <planetmaker> depends
10:30:14  <andythenorth> on the refit masks...?
10:30:24  <planetmaker> classes AND NOT other classes XOR cargos
10:30:42  <planetmaker> yup
10:30:44  <andythenorth> adding hazardous allows set authors to do things like restrict speed when carrying chemicals
10:30:53  <andythenorth> or force the use of barrier wagons in trains
10:30:55  <planetmaker> true
10:31:03  <planetmaker> barrier wagon? Never heart that
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10:32:15  <andythenorth>
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10:34:59  <andythenorth> also,the spec implies that FMSP and ENSP probably must have bit 10 set
10:35:10  <andythenorth> "industrial equipment, machinery"
10:41:40  <Qantourisc> My trains are ignoring the service stations ...
10:41:54  <Qantourisc> why ?
10:42:32  <Yexo> you disabled breakdowns and servicing when breakdowns are off, or they are too far from the track
10:43:32  <Qantourisc> Yexo: they are a sidetrack
10:43:44  <Yexo> so to far from the normal tracks
10:43:47  <planetmaker> depot look-ahead is 20(?) tiles or so
10:43:53  <Qantourisc> oooow
10:43:57  <Qantourisc> i'm over 20 :)
10:43:59  <Alberth> without signals :)
10:44:33  <Qantourisc> so how do i up that ?
10:44:39  <Alberth> are your trains that long ?
10:44:51  <Qantourisc> currently i made room, so the 1 train can sit before the depot
10:44:53  <Qantourisc> and not block the rest
10:45:02  <Qantourisc> case 1 is leaving
10:46:02  <Alberth> you really have trains of 20 tiles length?  insane :p
10:46:50  <Yexo> Qantourisc: if you give your trains "service at" orders they only go to that depot and only when they need service
10:46:59  <Yexo> the lookahead distance doesn't apply in that case
10:47:05  <Qantourisc> hmm
10:47:21  <Qantourisc> Alberth: no they are 7 long
10:47:38  <Alberth> right, so what are the other 13 tiles for?
10:47:42  <Qantourisc> distance between side track is 11
10:47:51  <Qantourisc> So it's a V split.
10:48:00  <Qantourisc> and 11 units later you have your depot
10:49:20  <Qantourisc> maybe it's the signals blocking the detection ?
10:49:39  <Alberth> sounds very largish to me, but then again, I just put the depot directly at the main line :)
10:50:06  <Alberth> signals also count as obstacles, which are translated to 'tiles' eventually
10:50:18  <Qantourisc> hmmm i'll try the lights
10:51:07  <Alberth> there are very likely discussions about this problem at the forum
10:51:28  <Alberth> I don't know whether it is in the FAQ, perhaps it should be added (hint, hint :) )
10:52:33  <Qantourisc> without the signals it works
10:53:12  <Qantourisc> i'd do it ... but i have NO idea how it really works :/
10:54:25  <Alberth> the path-finder tries to find a path to a depot every now and then (when a train needs it) upto some max distance. Tiles count as distance, as do other obstacles, such as signals
10:55:00  <Alberth> if the path finder cannot find a depot within range, it is assumed none is around, and some time later it is tried again
10:58:16  <Qantourisc> Ok that i can add :)
11:00:58  <Qantourisc> now waiting on password reset mail :)
11:13:15  <andythenorth> what is the correct cargo class for logs?
11:13:19  <andythenorth> or sugar cane?
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11:17:39  * andythenorth wonders why cargo classes are such a mess
11:18:24  <andythenorth> the ontology of cargo classes is a car crash
11:18:59  <andythenorth> they conflate properties of cargos and properties of vehicles
11:19:04  <andythenorth> which is why they're so inadequate
11:19:20  <andythenorth> can we fix them for grf v8?
11:20:04  <andythenorth> 'express' is a property of the cargo, but 'covered' is a property of the vehicle
11:20:31  <andythenorth> 'refrigerated' is a property of the vehicle, but 'suitable for pouring' is a property of the cargo
11:21:00  <andythenorth> 'armored' is a property of the vehicle, but 'hazardous' is a property of the cargo
11:21:53  <andythenorth> the proposal to layer in new refit callbacks could solve this, but classes are still a horrible mess
11:22:12  <andythenorth> are we stuck with this  because nobody wants to argue with MB?
11:22:37  <andythenorth> I know he's going to brandish UIC codes and send me to some catalogue of DB wagon types if we raise this, but it's just a mess
11:23:23  <Qantourisc> Alberth: amen
11:23:25  <Qantourisc> euuu
11:23:27  <Qantourisc> andythenorth: amen
11:24:57  <Alberth> andythenorth: but you can read 'refrigerated' as a 'must-be-kept-cold' cargo property.
11:25:34  <Qantourisc> There is still shape ...
11:25:47  <Alberth> ie the terminology may be somewhat wrong only
11:26:11  <Qantourisc> BTW refitting a good idea ?
11:26:53  <peter1138> cargo classes describe how the cargo is transported
11:27:07  <peter1138> well, not describe, but relate to
11:27:27  <andythenorth> they only 50% work
11:27:57  <peter1138> you're misinterpreting them i think
11:28:36  <andythenorth> hmm
11:28:40  <andythenorth> I'm trying my best
11:28:44  <andythenorth> I've been doing this a while :P
11:28:52  <andythenorth> I've made a few vehicles
11:29:20  <andythenorth> I'd be happy to be set straight :)
11:30:09  <Yexo> <Alberth> andythenorth: but you can read 'refrigerated' as a 'must-be-kept-cold' cargo property. <- not all current sets interpret it that way
11:30:52  <andythenorth> what class is scrap metal?
11:31:15  <Alberth> the specs are ambiguous thus
11:31:29  <andythenorth> possibly the problem is that classes are fine for the common cases
11:31:41  <andythenorth> i.e. a range of DB railway vehicles which they were invented for
11:31:48  <andythenorth> they only fail on edge cases, so maybe only 10%
11:31:50  <Alberth> perhaps you have a new kind of cargo
11:32:02  <andythenorth> I am the one with all the edge cases :P
11:32:15  <andythenorth> I have a vehicle set which is pretty much all edge cases
11:32:26  <andythenorth> and we've pushed cargo ideas a bit with FIRS
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11:32:45  <Alberth> that's how you make progress :)
11:33:04  <Alberth> but life sucks at the front line :(
11:33:08  <andythenorth> I could just declare FIRS 'winner' and only claim vehicle support in my sets for FIRS and default
11:33:16  <andythenorth> but that wasn't the point of classes
11:33:32  <andythenorth> they're supposed to provide a dream of interoparability and forward compatibility
11:33:34  <andythenorth> they don't
11:34:02  <Alberth> unfortunately, reality kicked in :p
11:34:15  <Yexo> it's easy enough to properly support firs + default and all other cargos only via the cargoclasses
11:34:15  <peter1138> they're specified for the default cargos
11:34:25  <andythenorth> so what will actually happen is that I will get maintenance requests for my vehicle sets
11:34:30  <Yexo> that means all other cargos might be transported in wrong wagons, but at least your set is able to transport them
11:34:32  <peter1138> anything that doesn't fit into the default classes should get a new class that you decide
11:34:36  <peter1138> that's the point o_O
11:34:40  <andythenorth> if we add rice to FIRS for example, I have to update HEQS
11:34:58  <andythenorth> that might be wholly unavoidable tbh
11:35:18  <Yexo> why would you HEQS have to be updated precisely? is rice not transportable or doesn't it have special graphics?
11:35:27  <andythenorth> rice doesn't travel by mining truck
11:35:34  <Yexo> but you can transport it
11:35:34  <andythenorth> I am probably stuck maintaining that tbh
11:35:41  <andythenorth> mining trucks are an edge case
11:35:47  <Yexo> transporting it in the proper wagons cannot be done by cargoclasses as they're defined now
11:35:56  <Alberth> did you ever try it the other way around, design cargo classes without bothering what exists, and see what you change?
11:36:06  <andythenorth> yes
11:36:15  <andythenorth> I basically add some splits to bulk
11:36:34  <andythenorth> make it explicit when a cargo can be transported by hopper
11:36:50  <andythenorth> make it explicit when a cargo needs stakes or similar (logs, sugar cane)
11:37:03  <andythenorth> the rest works and wouldn't change much
11:37:09  <andythenorth> but cargo classes are not mutable
11:37:22  <andythenorth> we're stuck with them no?
11:37:26  <Yexo> there are a few bits free, so a few classes can be added
11:37:52  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ you had useful thoughts on this previously
11:38:16  <andythenorth> we had problems like how to transport cement (silo wagons), and such like
11:38:37  <andythenorth> there are cargos that need gondolas, but can't be put through a hopper (scrap metal)
11:38:47  <peter1138> you can make a cargo class for "requires stakes"
11:39:03  <peter1138> there are 8 fixed cargo classes
11:39:25  <andythenorth> bits 11-14 are free?
11:39:32  <peter1138> bits 8-15
11:39:47  <andythenorth> what happened to 8-9-10?
11:39:51  <andythenorth> spec says they're used
11:40:01  <peter1138> they're "commonly used", but not part of any code
11:40:27  <andythenorth> are classes actually present in ottd code?  or a convention?
11:40:33  <Yexo> cargo classes are only useful if multiple sets support them. So changing 8-9-10 is not really an option
11:41:09  * andythenorth needs to remember how refits work again
11:41:42  <andythenorth> there's a difference between 'compatible with' and 'requires'
11:41:53  <peter1138> andythenorth, classes 0-7 are used in the default set of cargos
11:42:02  <andythenorth> ok thanks
11:42:56  <andythenorth> I'm ignoring the HEQS mining trucks as an edge
11:42:58  <andythenorth> case
11:43:04  <peter1138> it's a shame they're not 32 bit
11:43:09  <andythenorth> grf v8...
11:43:45  <andythenorth> is there even a conceptual solution to the mining trucks?
11:43:47  <andythenorth> hmm
11:43:59  <andythenorth> so the issue is they should only carry minerals, not agricultural cargos
11:44:13  <andythenorth> so someone adds rice, I have to add it to my CTT and mask it out
11:44:18  <andythenorth> someone adds grapes, same
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11:44:22  <andythenorth> someone adds olives, same
11:44:37  <Yexo> or you do it the other way around and only explicitely minierals
11:44:40  <andythenorth> could do
11:44:49  <andythenorth> then someone adds phosphates, I need to update HEQS
11:44:54  <Yexo> of course you'd have the same problem if someone added a new mineral cargo
11:45:15  <andythenorth> I can file this under edge case, unless we extend cargo attributes
11:45:49  <andythenorth> If we extend cargo attributes some of the 'conceptual' cargos like goods and supplies get....a lot of classes
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11:48:40  * andythenorth needs to be smarter
11:48:51  <andythenorth> drawing pixels does not require being smart
11:48:52  <peter1138> add a "food" class
11:49:00  <andythenorth> hmm
11:49:03  <andythenorth> that is interesting
11:49:07  <peter1138> then disallow all food
11:49:19  <andythenorth> should town buildings have supported classes?
11:49:37  <andythenorth> the convention is that industry set defines cargos, but not also houses
11:49:46  <andythenorth> which must be....interesting for house set authors
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11:51:35  <andythenorth> I started thinking about this because of the new auto-refit & cb
11:51:46  <andythenorth> if I have a tanker carrying milk, can it refit to petrol?
11:51:50  <andythenorth> at the station?
11:51:54  <andythenorth> for £0?
11:52:31  <andythenorth> both are liquid...
11:52:47  <planetmaker> if you set refit costs to 0 and allow station-refit: then yes
11:52:53  <planetmaker> it's the newgrf author's choice
11:52:58  <andythenorth> yes
11:53:06  <andythenorth> so should I allow it?
11:53:18  <planetmaker> I would not allow that. Only the other way around
11:53:18  <andythenorth> if my open wagon has carried coal, can it now carry grain?
11:53:28  <andythenorth> planetmaker: how would you allow / prevent it?
11:53:39  <andythenorth> reliably
11:53:48  <planetmaker> dirty->dirty: yes. clean->dirty: yes. dirty->clean: no. clean->clean: yes, but at (reduced) cost
11:53:57  <planetmaker> andythenorth: via callback
11:54:13  <planetmaker> and looking at all possible cargos. See my posting. Or ogfx+trains
11:54:19  <Yexo> why clean->clean at reduced cost but not dirty->dirty?
11:54:26  <andythenorth> you can't look at all possible cargos
11:54:27  <planetmaker> that's for free, Yexo
11:54:29  <andythenorth> you don't know the future
11:54:30  <Yexo> ah :)
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11:54:58  <planetmaker> that's what I showed you yesterday
11:55:39  <planetmaker> indeed I don't know the future. Depends on what you want. One might allow it at a cost
11:55:53  <planetmaker> But one can easily treat all existing cargos
11:56:34  <andythenorth> that implies you think cargo classes are inadequate...
11:57:17  <Yexo> of course the current cargo classes are inadequate. Didn't you come to that very same conclusion?
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11:58:29  <andythenorth> I am not always right
11:58:52  <andythenorth> quite often I have a delusion
12:00:40  <planetmaker> andythenorth: a class like 'food' additionally might solve the 'clean' or 'dirty' problem
12:00:55  <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' is how it's handled in the uk - on tanker wagons
12:01:10  <planetmaker> though I'm not sure 'food' is good. I'd not mind plant fibres in that, too
12:01:22  <andythenorth> are plant fibres bulk?
12:01:29  <planetmaker> but coal or ore... is different. Yes, they can
12:01:40  <andythenorth> what happens when you have transported fish, then refit to clothes?
12:01:49  <planetmaker> :-) smelly cotton
12:02:14  <planetmaker> fish is not bulk, but piece
12:02:23  <planetmaker> so it doesn't matter. I replace one box by another
12:02:50  <planetmaker> i.e. for the piece cargos I allow to replace one for the other w/o cost nor trouble
12:03:00  <andythenorth> piece cargos are generally problem free
12:03:08  <planetmaker> except when the wagon needs modifications, like boxes -> vehicles
12:06:59  <andythenorth> are vehicles really piece goods?
12:07:15  <andythenorth> "any unitised cargo, packed or unpacked"
12:07:27  <andythenorth> is a log unitised?
12:07:36  <andythenorth> is a piece of coal unitisied?
12:08:06  <andythenorth> unitised to me implies anything that is not a fluid or gas
12:08:25  <andythenorth> i.e. unitised just means "doesn't flow"
12:08:58  <peter1138> you're still going on about this?
12:09:29  <andythenorth> yup
12:09:34  <andythenorth> still confused :)
12:09:49  <andythenorth> either I'm crap or the spec is crap, or this is a lot of fuss about nothing
12:10:06  <andythenorth> now that OzTrans has flounced off in a storm of handbags, I need to take up his role
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12:11:36  <planetmaker> andythenorth: the difference is much and many ;-)
12:11:47  <planetmaker> You Englishmen have that distinction. I only have viel(e)
12:12:24  <peter1138> now?
12:12:24  <andythenorth> planetmaker: that is a nice way of putting it :)
12:12:35  <peter1138> has he flounced again?
12:12:36  <andythenorth> peter1138: well quite recently
12:12:53  <andythenorth> I had a chat with danmack, canset has been abandoned by oztrans
12:13:01  <andythenorth> he was probably the only one left using the patch
12:13:23  <andythenorth> well him and wallyweb, and wallyweb mostly uses ottd now iirc
12:13:31  <andythenorth> so oztrans has been crafting an awesome set for...himself
12:13:36  <andythenorth> only now he isn't
12:13:45  <andythenorth> so danmack is left with a lot of sprites and no set
12:13:50  <planetmaker> :-(
12:13:54  <andythenorth> but Pikka is going to fix it I think
12:14:06  <andythenorth> basically NARS 2 code -> Canset
12:14:13  <andythenorth> is my understanding
12:14:26  <andythenorth> which is exciting
12:14:32  <planetmaker> he should call it CATS ;-)
12:14:37  <andythenorth> maybe he will
12:14:39  <andythenorth> suggest it :P
12:15:00  <andythenorth> anyway, I am actually trying to write down new classes here
12:15:01  <planetmaker> I didn't know he works on it. As you talk with him about it... you go
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12:15:22  <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' seems to be at least useful, not least with the new auto refitting
12:15:47  <andythenorth> I can't figure out the bulk cargos quite
12:15:57  <andythenorth> there's 'bulk and suitable for hoppers'
12:16:06  <andythenorth> 'bulk and requires stakes or cages or similar'
12:16:18  <andythenorth> and just 'bulk' (goes in gondolas etc, anything with sides)
12:16:39  <andythenorth> there's also technically 'liquid and suitable for hoppers'
12:16:40  <Zuu> Can NewGRFs specify a time delay for auto refiting? (extra time that the vehicle has to stay in the station)
12:16:45  <andythenorth> e.g. grain, plastic pellets, cement
12:16:49  <andythenorth> are all fluids
12:17:26  <peter1138> CanSet v1.1 on Dec 25th
12:17:35  <andythenorth> for patch only :P
12:17:50  <peter1138> not what the post says
12:18:03  <peter1138> no update after that
12:18:12  <Yexo> Zuu: no
12:18:48  <andythenorth> peter1138: danmack seemed to think different ;)
12:19:08  <andythenorth> oztrans has afaik 'left with no goodbyes'
12:19:13  <andythenorth> not even a dramatic door slam
12:19:23  <andythenorth> and of code will be available or reusable
12:19:38  <Zuu> So if a NewGRF want to provide time consuming refits, they have to be done in a depot. (not that they can specify a delay there, but it just takes some time to get into a depot)
12:21:08  <andythenorth> Zuu: possibly the loading time could be adjusted?
12:21:39  <Zuu> possible, I'm not the NewGRF ninja here :-)
12:22:13  <andythenorth> cb36 can change load amount
12:22:30  <andythenorth> if cb36 is called when auto-refitting, then it's probably possible
12:22:34  <andythenorth> convoluted, but possible
12:22:35  <Yexo> andythenorth: but not dependent on whether a vehicle just refitted or not
12:22:45  <andythenorth> hmm
12:22:51  <Yexo> as in the next station it'd still have a lower load time, so that's not what you want
12:22:51  <andythenorth> and there's no per-vehicle storage
12:22:58  <andythenorth> so previous cargo can't be stored
12:23:02  <andythenorth> I think it's overkill anyway
12:24:34  <andythenorth> if the string for FIRS Lumber was changed to Wood Products, would it be less confusing?
12:24:52  <andythenorth> currently Lumber can travel by hopper wagons etc
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12:25:31  <frosch123> do we need a "clean" cargo class?
12:25:52  <andythenorth> "clean" could work
12:26:07  <andythenorth> provides for foodstuffs, cotton etc
12:26:13  <frosch123> btw. andy: isn't "bulk+oversized" vs. "bulk+not-oversized" what you are always complaniing about?
12:26:21  <andythenorth> frosch123: pretty much
12:26:32  <andythenorth> I think it's entirely solvable within classes, I'm just not smart enough to figure out how
12:26:53  <andythenorth> "clean" is a great class for determining refit cost
12:27:15  <planetmaker> 'clean' would make sense from my POV
12:27:16  <Yexo> frosch123: from the current descriptio of the classes "bulk + oversized" seems nonsense
12:27:42  <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' or 'clean' solve a chunk of my current gripes
12:29:12  <andythenorth> I don't understand 'oversized'
12:29:19  <andythenorth> the intention is totally unclear
12:29:32  <frosch123> i thought of scrap metal as bulk+oversized
12:29:37  <andythenorth> how many industry sets are going to add 'transformers'
12:29:47  <andythenorth> (the electrical devices, not the comic franchise'
12:30:01  <Yexo> does scrap metal need another means of transportation than coal?
12:30:21  <andythenorth> maybe, maybe not
12:30:41  <frosch123> imo a open hopper can transport oversized stuff. a boxvan or self-discharging hopper cannot
12:30:54  <Yexo> hmm, true
12:31:02  <planetmaker> Yexo: depends on size :-)
12:31:28  <andythenorth> how can you fit oversized stuff out the bottom of the hopper?
12:31:33  <andythenorth> it would get stuck in the doors :)
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12:33:50  <andythenorth> currently I don't set 'bulk' on scrap metal
12:34:03  <andythenorth> it's piece goods
12:34:07  <Yexo> currently only GLAS and VEHI from ECS are defined as oversized
12:34:20  <andythenorth> are VEHI also piece goods?
12:34:28  <Yexo> SCRP 	Scrap Metal 	0010 Bulk 		FIRS 	 <_ that's in the wiki
12:34:34  <andythenorth> oops
12:34:35  <Yexo> VEHI are piece goods, oversized
12:34:50  <andythenorth> so all vans in every set should be excluding 'oversized'
12:35:12  <andythenorth> seems an odd class
12:35:14  <andythenorth> I don't get it
12:35:45  <Yexo> well, it fits the description: "any cargo needing special means of transportation"
12:36:20  <andythenorth> seems like a bad idea :)
12:36:29  <andythenorth> I'm going to ignore that one
12:36:55  <andythenorth> it looks like it's supposed to be similar to US railroad 'high wide' or 'dimensional load'
12:37:22  <andythenorth> I can't think how it can be used meaningfully
12:37:29  <frosch123> andythenorth: create a spreadsheet with all you vehicles and all cargos from the wiki
12:37:53  <andythenorth> the wiki is out of spec from FIRS code wrt SCRP btw
12:37:54  <frosch123> then define refittability for each combination and let some algorithm figure out the best cargo classes :p
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12:38:43  <Yexo> you can simply brute force that with a maximum of 16 cargoclasses
12:39:01  <Yexo> ^^ or not
12:39:06  <Yexo> what was I thinking ? :p
12:39:31  * andythenorth ponders defining coal etc as liquid
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12:39:59  <Yexo> very bad idea
12:40:14  <Sigvatr> hi, i'm having a hard time trying to figure out a good strategy for multiplayer games
12:40:15  <Yexo> all default cargos should never change their cargo classes, or existing sets will break
12:40:39  <Sigvatr> i guess you want to have all of your goods travel really far to their destination?
12:40:45  <Yexo> Sigvatr: how does a strategy for multiplayer games differ from a strategy for singleplayer games?
12:40:48  <andythenorth> Yexo: it would at least solve the scrap metal problem :)
12:41:01  <andythenorth> although coal would then travel by tanker :)
12:41:19  <Yexo> Sigvatr: and a strategy depends on what you want to do
12:41:33  <Yexo> if you want to make as much money as possible, yes, create as long lines as possible
12:43:09  <Sigvatr> i haven't played single player before so i don't know what the difference is
12:45:15  <Sigvatr> i've never played a tycoon game at all until this one yesterday
12:45:22  <Sigvatr> it reminds me of atrain, did you ever play that?
12:46:33  <Sigvatr>
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12:50:32  <Zuu> At some distance there will be a maximum point when you will not make more mony but rather less by transporting the gods longer.
12:50:38  <Zuu> goods*
12:50:55  <Zuu> This is because the goods value decrease by time.
12:53:26  <Yexo> you'll make a little less per vehicle, but since you can have more vehicles I think overall you'll get more profit
12:54:51  <andythenorth> hmm
12:55:17  <andythenorth> so in english, 'bulk' and 'bulky' can have quite different meanings
12:55:30  <andythenorth> and this is the core of my gripe
12:55:40  <andythenorth> bulky does not either mean 'oversized'
12:57:55  <andythenorth> so logs are bulky
12:58:06  <andythenorth> scrap metal can be bulky
12:58:10  <andythenorth> sugar cane is bulky
12:58:26  <Sigvatr> how do you break up rail line "blocks"
12:58:29  <Sigvatr> are they between signals?
12:59:15  <andythenorth> these don't flow well in a hopper car:
12:59:26  <andythenorth> nor do they travel by box car
12:59:43  <frosch123> piecegoods + oversized imo
13:00:11  <frosch123> i.e. they go with the same transporters as transformers :p
13:00:22  <andythenorth> he :)
13:00:36  <andythenorth> this does not flow, nor travel by box car
13:00:36  <andythenorth>
13:00:45  <andythenorth> maybe there should just be a class 'cargo'
13:00:45  <andythenorth> :P
13:01:10  <andythenorth> and all open / flat vehicles implement it
13:01:36  <frosch123> that picture shows bulk+oversized
13:02:43  <frosch123> imo "oversized" is just your "bulky"
13:03:11  <andythenorth> frosch123: that will leave things like schnabel cars transporting wood
13:03:26  <V453000> those models have some insane details :O
13:03:38  <andythenorth>
13:03:48  <andythenorth> ^ not for wood
13:04:20  <frosch123> not for transformers either
13:05:21  *** Zuu [] has quit [Ping timeout: 480 seconds]
13:05:29  <frosch123> i guess the problem are only the current properties for cargo classes
13:05:41  <frosch123> you can define a wagon to carry bulk and/or oversized stuff
13:05:52  <frosch123> but you cannot define it to only carry oversized stuff that is bulk
13:05:54  <andythenorth> I think the problem is probably solved by two or three new classes
13:06:06  <peter1138> cargo classes don't have properties :D
13:06:15  <andythenorth> probably solvable without any spec change at all
13:06:48  <andythenorth> we already have so much spec around cargos and classes that more is not desirable
13:06:53  <andythenorth> at least, not without deprecating some
13:07:12  <frosch123> i still favor my refittability callback :p
13:07:14  <Elukka> bah. americans get functional model train couplers that look much like the real thing, and they don't have to deal with buffers and close coupler mechanisms!
13:07:17  <frosch123> maybe i should just commit it
13:07:25  <andythenorth> frosch123: I liked your callback
13:07:30  <peter1138> cargo class labels, heh
13:07:31  <andythenorth> I can't remember how it would be used though :)
13:09:34  <frosch123> andythenorth: it allows you to check each cargo individually using various attributes
13:09:46  <frosch123> so you could actually code "oversized, but only when bulk"
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13:10:29  <frosch123> or "piece goods, but only if the weight per piece is < 1 ton"
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13:17:58  <andythenorth> frosch123: I think I could solve it with a new class, to be used for bulky cargos (or by abusing 'oversized')
13:18:04  <andythenorth> no cb needed initially
13:18:06  <andythenorth> but...
13:18:09  <andythenorth> it has two problems
13:18:17  <andythenorth> (1) we're not supposed to change default cargos
13:18:34  <andythenorth> (2) I don't stand much chance of getting Pikka to change his sets :(
13:18:40  <andythenorth> so a cb might help there
13:19:32  <andythenorth> it shouldn't be 'bulk + oversized'
13:19:37  <andythenorth> it should be 'piece + oversized'
13:19:39  <andythenorth> or similar
13:21:13  <andythenorth> bulk works for things like coal just fine
13:21:22  <andythenorth> the confusion is that scrap metal, wood etc are not bulk
13:23:26  <andythenorth> I think this is what the 'oversized' class was intended for:
13:24:27  <andythenorth> hmm
13:24:38  <andythenorth> 'scrap metal does not travel by hopper' -> wrong :P
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13:30:05  <andythenorth> what I can't figure is whether to extend 'bulk' to be more specific about fine cargos that can be poured in hoppers / silos
13:30:15  <andythenorth> i.e. an additional class there
13:31:17  <andythenorth> or better to have a new class used with piece goods, which vans etc can _exclude_
13:31:29  <andythenorth> reusing or similar to oversized
13:31:59  <andythenorth> e.g. this vehicle is only suitable for cargos that can be easily handled and stacked
13:32:20  <andythenorth> I can't NOT for a cargo class can I
13:32:23  <andythenorth> ?
13:32:32  <andythenorth> e.g. set scrap metal as NOT covered
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13:33:46  <frosch123> you could also introduce bulk+piecegoods :p
13:33:48  <Yexo> you mean set it as "must not be covered"?
13:34:22  <andythenorth> could be
13:35:02  * andythenorth is reading this ticket, which concludes basically as 'shrug' and 'meh'
13:37:06  <andythenorth> ultimately, if it takes this much figuring out, other vehicle set authors won't figure it out, unless Big Docs are written
13:37:11  <andythenorth> and nobody reads Big Docs
13:37:43  <planetmaker> andythenorth: IMHO you have to let go the desire to treat *every* cargo 100% correct with a dozen cargo classes
13:38:12  <planetmaker> it's a rough classification. It must fail for some cases
13:39:07  <planetmaker> a cargoclass like 'clean' or 'foodish'... why not, might be for bulk a good addition.
13:39:25  <planetmaker> but 'must not be covered' is... funny
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13:39:42  <planetmaker> anything which needs cover should declare the class 'covered', too
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13:41:48  <andythenorth> I can let go of that, but I'm still confused :P
13:42:00  <andythenorth> are all cargos either bulk, unitised or liquid?
13:42:24  <planetmaker> what else could be there?
13:42:24  <andythenorth> i.e. they must be in at least on of those sets
13:42:54  <planetmaker> I'd say "yes"
13:43:51  <planetmaker> then they can be in need of clean handling or don't care.
13:44:04  <planetmaker> then they can be in need of refrigeration or not care
13:44:49  <planetmaker> then they care about weather or not (=covered yes/no)
13:45:39  <planetmaker> so milk could be liquid+refrigerate+clean or it could be unitised+refrigerate(+clean)
13:45:47  <andythenorth> and they can be oversized or not
13:45:54  <planetmaker> milk bottles? :-P
13:46:06  <andythenorth> and if they're oversized they don't fit through small doors
13:46:15  <planetmaker> yes
13:46:30  <andythenorth> so the problem is solved
13:46:32  <andythenorth> entirely
13:46:37  <andythenorth> except...
13:46:38  <planetmaker> so it*s 3+1+1+1+1 = 7
13:46:39  <andythenorth> :)
13:46:59  <planetmaker> missing "hazardous"
13:47:38  <andythenorth> so the problems are:
13:47:46  <andythenorth> - we didn't set scrap metal as bulk, we should have
13:48:01  <andythenorth> - few cargos are setting oversized when they should
13:48:07  <peter1138> what a palaver
13:48:11  <andythenorth> :D
13:48:23  <andythenorth> - vehicle set authors are not setting 'exclude oversized' when they should
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13:49:29  <V453000> there is any hazardous cargo yet? :D
13:49:36  <planetmaker> for the reason "not used". Same there ^
13:49:46  <planetmaker> andythenorth: then FIRS could start using it
13:49:53  <planetmaker> for e.g. vehicles, fuel oil
13:49:55  <andythenorth> well let's set 'clean' on bit 11
13:49:59  <andythenorth> and start using hazardous
13:49:59  <planetmaker> I'd not attach it to crude oil
13:50:06  <planetmaker> And let's introduce the clean/foodish
13:50:06  <andythenorth> crude oil is inert? :P
13:50:15  <planetmaker> mostly
13:50:17  <frosch123> "hazardous" fits well with "must not be covered" :p
13:50:19  <andythenorth> and move scrap to 'bulk'
13:50:39  <andythenorth> most problems solved
13:51:05  <andythenorth> and maybe possibly adjust the wiki to be more helpful, and imply a bit less that you should have been present on a german forum in 2006
13:51:12  <andythenorth> which is kind of how it feels to me atm
13:53:14  <planetmaker> :-)
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13:53:30  <andythenorth> planetmaker: are we allowed to set 'oversized' for wood?
13:53:37  <andythenorth> as it's a default cargo, that's not permitted?
13:54:04  <planetmaker> difficult
13:54:13  <planetmaker> grf v8 ;-)
13:54:39  <planetmaker> might indeed be the point to adjust a few defaults there which are only communicated when the grf has v8.
13:54:41  <planetmaker> Not sure...
13:57:10  <frosch123> no idea how that could be done in v8
13:57:22  <frosch123> classes are not only used for refittability, but also in variables
13:57:38  <planetmaker> yes, it's a ... PITA
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14:00:22  <planetmaker> frosch123: my idea was to report changed default CC for grf >= v8
14:01:03  <planetmaker> it wouldn't matter for newgrf-defined CC for cargos
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14:01:38  <planetmaker> cargo-class translation table :-P
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14:06:12  <Qantourisc> In the ship/train/car overview, what is the symbol under the number ?
14:06:49  <frosch123> profit
14:07:54  * andythenorth wonders why plant fibres are bulk
14:11:16  <andythenorth> ah
14:11:20  <Elukka> surely they are?
14:11:25  <andythenorth> why?
14:11:33  <Elukka> they're a bulk cargo, no?
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14:11:37  <andythenorth> not sure
14:11:49  <andythenorth> what's your reasoning :)
14:12:33  <Alberth> it'd be easy to chop them in small enough pieces, I think
14:12:45  <Elukka>
14:13:19  <Alberth> and 'fibres' sound very bendable, even without Bender :p
14:13:25  <Qantourisc> a profit, nice to know
14:15:10  <andythenorth> Elukka: in that list of bulk cargos do you see cotton, flax, hemp etc?  :D
14:16:01  <Elukka> what else would it be if not a bulk cargo?
14:16:04  <Elukka> it's certainly not piece goods
14:16:11  <andythenorth> why not?
14:16:23  * andythenorth -> genuinely interested
14:16:24  <Qantourisc> PS, some trains have travel time of a year :)
14:16:36  <Qantourisc> and their profit is often negative
14:16:42  <Qantourisc> any advise there ?
14:16:56  <Qantourisc> Smaller maps ?
14:17:35  <peter1138> faster trains or less distance
14:18:12  <andythenorth> Elukka: why aren't plant fibres piece goods?
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14:19:22  <Elukka> i wouldn't think they're transported in boxes
14:19:25  <andythenorth> he
14:19:36  * andythenorth thinks elukka has the same problem as andythenorth
14:19:55  <andythenorth> Elukka: according to the definition, everything that isn't bulk or liquid *must* be piece goods
14:20:13  <andythenorth> ho
14:20:16  <andythenorth>
14:20:26  <peter1138> which definition?
14:20:26  <andythenorth> "Types of neo-bulk cargo goods include heavy machinery,, bundled, scrap iron,, waste paper, and[1][4][3] The category has only become recognized as a distinct cargo category in its own right in recent decades"
14:20:37  <Elukka> i'm not sure what the problem is?
14:20:39  <peter1138> neo-bulk?
14:20:42  <andythenorth> peter1138: the definition proposed by planetmaker
14:20:42  <michi_cc> The NewGRF cargo class explicitly says "suitable for pouring", which fibers probably isn't.
14:21:11  <andythenorth> andythenorth: are all cargos either bulk, unitised or liquid?
14:21:11  <andythenorth> [13:42] planetmaker: what else could be there?
14:21:19  <peter1138> pouring as in tipping, i think that means
14:21:27  <peter1138> you could tip fibres
14:22:10  <andythenorth> but you don't transport cotton bales in a hopper car
14:23:55  <andythenorth> well you do in the game at the moment :)
14:26:40  <andythenorth> what class is livestock?
14:26:53  <andythenorth> piece
14:27:02  <andythenorth> Elukka: do livestock travel in boxes?
14:27:09  <andythenorth> he
14:27:11  <andythenorth> chickens do
14:29:24  <Elukka> well, i dunno
14:29:24  <Elukka> if you want it to be cotton bales define it as piece goods
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14:29:38  <andythenorth> I'm going to
14:30:02  <andythenorth> :)
14:30:22  <andythenorth> Elukka: thanks, you have helped me figure out some things
14:31:04  <andythenorth> specifically, there is no point moaning about classes being broken when the 'problem' is simply caused by trying to keep compatibility with ECS
14:31:15  <andythenorth> which gains nothing
14:39:06  <Qantourisc> andythenorth: if they want to be compatible
14:39:14  <Qantourisc> i recommend they share their classes code :)
14:39:47  <andythenorth> there's no gain from the compatibility, except some possible cargo graphics support
14:40:49  <Qantourisc> unless you want to run them at the same time ...
14:40:51  <Qantourisc> sounds confusing :p
14:41:06  <Sigvatr> i'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly signals and "blocks" work
14:41:09  <Sigvatr> what defines a block?
14:41:17  <andythenorth> you would have to rewrite ottd to run them at the same time ;)
14:41:32  <andythenorth> FIRS uses all the available cargo slots
14:42:04  <Qantourisc> s/int8/int16/g ?
14:42:49  <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: a block is connected railtrack not blocked by a signal (note, some signals only count one way) (i hope i got that correct)
14:43:11  <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: note: connected does not mean trains can go from A to B
14:43:26  <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: but as soon as the rails connect, it's connected for the "block"
14:43:45  <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: also note the 1 way signals, also important in some cases
14:44:57  <michi_cc> Qantourisc: Small correction, a signal block always ends at a signal, regardless of the signal type/direction.
14:45:06  * andythenorth is now feeling chipper about cargo classes once more
14:45:08  <Qantourisc> michi_cc: a ok, my bad :)
14:45:35  <andythenorth> there is only one issue I can't figure out, and that's things like logs and sugarcane
14:46:19  <andythenorth> which shouldn't travel by van
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14:49:11  <andythenorth> but are not bulk
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14:49:30  <andythenorth> and maybe they should just set 'oversized' or a similar new class
14:51:04  <andythenorth> he
14:51:10  <andythenorth> is sugar beet 'clean'? :D
14:52:58  <Sigvatr> ok, so basically a block is the rail line between two signals?
14:53:08  <michi_cc> andythenorth: If I look out of the window at the heap there I'd definitely say not clean :) I don't want all that dirty in my food.
14:53:31  * andythenorth figured the same
14:53:32  <andythenorth> :)
14:53:42  <andythenorth> does sugar beet travel in mining trucks?
14:53:43  <andythenorth> :P
14:54:30  <michi_cc> It could, I just don't know any farmer who owns a mining truck :p
14:55:09  <andythenorth> I have pictures of sugar *cane* travelling by mining truck in Hawaii
14:55:25  <andythenorth> I think a mining truck would get stuck in a typical beet field]
14:55:34  <andythenorth> an expensive muddy paperweight
14:55:56  <andythenorth> michi_cc: this is what's needed for beets:
14:55:57  <andythenorth> :)
14:56:04  <andythenorth> and that is...possible for HEQS
14:58:24  <Sigvatr> does the ttd music ever get boring?
14:59:05  <michi_cc> andythenorth: There are special harvesters for sugar beet here, but the beet is only dumped into a heap next to some farm track by them and later moved to processing by a truck.
14:59:31  <andythenorth> so they run to the edge of the field + stockpile?
14:59:34  <andythenorth> makes sense
15:00:37  <michi_cc> Yes, the sugar refineries can't take all the sugar beet thats ripe at the same time so it has to be stockpiled for later processing.
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15:02:23  <andythenorth> unless there are rabid objections, I'm going to add a class for 'won't fit through small openings, e.g. large logs, bundles of sugarcane, etc, and also is likely to roll about so needs stakes or other restraining methods'
15:02:29  <andythenorth> is there a snappy version of that?
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15:02:54  <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> unless there are rabid objections <-- don't tell MB then :p
15:03:30  <michi_cc> Or really go for neo-bulk.
15:03:56  <michi_cc> That has at least some real economic background to point mb to.
15:05:03  <andythenorth> I really don't care what MB thinks about it
15:06:42  <supermop> any of you guys think the euro is about to fall significantly?
15:06:59  <Eddi|zuHause> i don't quite remember my previous thougths on the matter...
15:07:00  <andythenorth> I just chose not to get paid in € for my business
15:07:05  * andythenorth is part of the problem :P
15:07:08  <supermop> i want to buy a integrated amplifier from germany, but will wait if it might nose dive
15:07:39  <supermop> probably won't fall in the next 3 hours:
15:07:40  <Sigvatr> so are any new features planned for openttd, or is it just bug fixing?
15:08:11  <Eddi|zuHause> Sigvatr: have you been sleeping the past few days?
15:08:35  <Sigvatr> i have been playing openttd for less than 24 hours :|
15:08:42  <Sigvatr> in fact i've never even played a tycoon game before
15:09:02  <andythenorth> supermop: your currency is $?  or yen?
15:09:24  <supermop> ha i wish i had assets in yen right now
15:09:39  <supermop> usd for me
15:10:46  <supermop> i want to give up on my current set up, and go for integrated amplifier, and i love the rams pieces,
15:11:03  <supermop> the ateier being the only marginally modern one made though
15:11:08  <supermop> atelier
15:12:22  <supermop> the atelier stuff also has the advantage of a glut of examples surviving in germany, so the prices are quite low
15:12:52  <supermop> typically much cheaper than modern audiophile solid state gear
15:13:35  <andythenorth> supermop: if the € collapses, it's likely that most currencies will follow
15:13:47  <andythenorth> unless there's a flight to usd for stability
15:13:51  <andythenorth> but currently the flight is to yen
15:14:50  <supermop> bank of japan desperately wants yen to fall though to try to boost exporting (thus japanese heavy industry), but its not working so far
15:15:10  <supermop> and euro collapsing will make that worse
15:15:53  * andythenorth will bbl
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15:22:20  <Sigvatr> towns accept any cargo, right?
15:22:30  <Alberth> no
15:22:54  <Alberth> open a station build window, and wave over a city to see what it accepts
15:23:23  <Alberth> alternatively, use the '?' button and click at houses :)
15:24:45  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: japanese economy has been on a standstill for decades now...
15:25:53  <Alberth> if you click at a station, the station window will also tell you what it accepts
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15:26:17  <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: finally a sustainable economy :p
15:26:27  <supermop> it has
15:26:33  <supermop> but the yen is painfully strong
15:27:12  <supermop> especially painfull for me - who wants to take another trip there to see a show on at the mori museum
15:27:20  <Eddi|zuHause> because they totally lost the race of the USD and EUR which each keep trying to drop faster than the other
15:27:37  <supermop> the first time i went there the yen was 120 to the dollar, now its 75
15:27:43  <supermop> so i cant justify it
15:28:10  <Eddi|zuHause> that's why they're milking this euro-crisis as much as they can
15:28:32  <supermop> although if i can get there i can get informational interviews at a couple japanese architecture firm where i have connections....
15:28:37  <Eddi|zuHause> if they solved it, the euro would skyrocket, and the export economy would suffer
15:28:42  <supermop> wouldnt mind being paid in yen for a few years
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15:29:36  <Eddi|zuHause> there's a village in switzerland that technically belongs to germany. they use swiss money, but pay german taxes.
15:30:11  <Eddi|zuHause> then suddenly the swiss franc got incredibly strong... and their taxes grew equally, but their wages didn't
15:30:53  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23120 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (6 files): -Feature: [NoAI] Support for refit orders.
15:33:51  <supermop> hmm playing music i like to sing along to in the shop was a bad idea
15:34:02  <supermop> good thing there are no customers in here
15:35:27  <Eddi|zuHause> if having no customers is a good thing, i understand why you have money problems :p
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15:42:57  <supermop> actually we dont - the us business is carrying about half the company with only 10% of the employees
15:43:16  <supermop> we are mostly web based, but we use our office as a show room
15:43:39  <supermop> and new yorkers seem not to start early on saturdays, so the mornings are quiet
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15:58:12  <supermop> i need a mac book air sleeve
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16:08:12  <Eddi|zuHause> i have books, air, and sleeves... not sure about the mac part...
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16:24:37  <supermop> work replaced my mac book pro with it
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16:32:45  <andythenorth> hola
16:32:47  <andythenorth> he
16:33:03  <Alberth> hi
16:33:12  <andythenorth> "It is difficult to construct categories into which one can carefully classify all cargoes" :D
16:33:16  <andythenorth>
16:34:07  <andythenorth> but I think I have solved all my gripes :)
16:35:42  <supermop> cool
16:39:45  <andythenorth> I don't know if it needs to be part of grf v8
16:41:48  <michi_cc> Adding cargo classes definitely not.
16:42:31  <andythenorth> changing classes of Wood?
16:42:42  <michi_cc> Changing existing cargo classes of default cargoes is a basically a no-go, even with v8 as they are just used in too many places.
16:43:36  <michi_cc> The only thing that will probably work is *adding* a new cargo class to Wood.
16:47:13  <andythenorth> that's my proposal :)
16:47:16  <andythenorth> changing / adding /s
16:47:21  <andythenorth> add neo-bulk
16:47:31  <andythenorth> for authors who wish to make use of it
16:47:35  <supermop> can i say haben gehast?
16:47:41  <supermop> i forget how i write that
16:47:45  <michi_cc> so WOOD would be piece+neo bulk?
16:47:46  <supermop> in 3rd person
16:48:09  <michi_cc> That change should be okay as no set would test for neo bulk yet.
16:48:18  <supermop> for past tense of have
16:48:47  <andythenorth> yes
16:49:06  <andythenorth> I would start testing for them :)
16:49:12  <andythenorth> and add them to FIRS Wood
16:49:46  <michi_cc> supermop: hassen or haben?
16:50:18  <supermop> haben
16:50:19  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Propose that a the newgrf developer forum then, there's no need to couple that to grfv8 though.
16:50:40  <andythenorth> I'm writing a post now :)
16:50:45  <michi_cc> er hat gehabt / sie haben gehabt depending if singular or plural
16:51:11  <supermop> i want to say ich wunsche dass Sie eine gute Herbst gehabt?
16:51:34  <michi_cc> That sentence doesn't make sense.
16:51:41  <supermop> writing to an older guy who certainly deserves Sie
16:51:54  <supermop> 'i hope you have had a good autumn"?
16:53:47  <michi_cc> "Ich hoffe, Sie hatten einen guten Herbst" for formal writing (Spoken also "Ich hoffe, Sie haben einen guten Herbst gehabt")
16:54:19  <supermop> oh, thanks
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16:55:55  <michi_cc> present perfect as a tense form is mostly used colloquially/as spoken language, but the proper formal tense is preterit.
16:57:44  * andythenorth thinks it finally made sense:
17:02:03  <michi_cc> andythenorth: Reads sane
17:02:26  <andythenorth> :)
17:02:53  * andythenorth is now lost in a book about containers
17:03:03  <andythenorth> basically anything that will go in a 20 foot box gets containerised
17:03:06  <andythenorth> including bulk cargos
17:03:31  <andythenorth> grain etc
17:04:46  <michi_cc> For bulk cargoes I guess weight is a problem, AFAIK the weight limit of containers isn't that high comparatively.
17:05:39  <andythenorth> steel coils present a problem
17:05:47  <andythenorth> I've seen pictures of them falling through the bottom
17:05:54  <andythenorth> not good in an 8 high stack of boxes :)
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17:23:05  <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i wouldn't use "gehabt haben". sounds like you translated an english sentence 1:1...
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17:25:30  <Eddi|zuHause> you could say "Ich wÃŒnsche, einen guten Herbst gehabt zu haben", but mostly with an ironic subtext :p
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17:54:25  <andythenorth> he
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18:07:31  <Sigvatr> how do i see chat history in multiplayer
18:07:35  <Sigvatr> or make it permanently visible
18:09:01  <supermop> google wants me to say "Zwischen den Regie und das Atelier VerstÀrker, tun, die Sie bevorzugen?"
18:14:01  <Alberth> Sigvatr: I think it is in the console
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18:14:57  <Alberth>  <-- this console :)
18:16:35  <Sigvatr> is it possible to dig tunnels underneath other people's railroads
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18:29:05  <andythenorth> \o/
18:36:14  <Alberth> why not?
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18:45:09  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23121 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:09  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:09  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 18 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:09  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 90 changes by eloekset
18:45:09  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by eloekset
18:45:11  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: serbian - 17 changes by etran
18:45:11  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: tamil - 15 changes by aswn
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19:17:09  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you thinking to refine 'oversized' *and* have 'neo-bulk'?  Or just to refine 'oversized' ?
19:18:03  <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not thinking anything, just showing options
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19:33:27  * andythenorth contemplates whether to try and fix tram offsets, or redraw the tram tracks to be where the trams actually go :P
19:42:18  <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I understand your point about bit 10 class now
19:42:25  <andythenorth> it's something I had been puzzling about
19:42:58  <andythenorth> oversized and overweight are not the same thing
19:43:08  <andythenorth> two different dimensions...
19:44:49  <andythenorth>
19:46:21  <Alberth> lol!
19:47:24  <Alberth> you will get many glitches with such loads, I guess :(
19:49:49  <andythenorth> :)
19:53:32  <Qantourisc> hmmm stock disapears after a while
19:53:58  <Qantourisc> that picture is old
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20:01:36  <Qantourisc> I keep adding trains to my line :p
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20:23:02  <Terkhen> hi
20:24:06  <Qantourisc> Terkhen: hi
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20:41:50  <Zuu> Qantourisc: Stock dissapearing, as with the truck above it falling off? :-p
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20:43:26  <Qantourisc> :)
20:43:28  <Qantourisc> no
20:43:31  <Qantourisc> but no time now
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20:58:01  <Sigvatr> man
20:58:03  <Sigvatr> signals are fucking confusing
20:58:09  <Sigvatr> how often does someone complain about that
20:59:02  <Elukka> just use path signals everywhere
20:59:30  <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: often, you'll get the hang of it :)
21:00:00  <Elukka> there's niche cases where the rest are still useful but for now (and most times in the future too) you'll just want path signals
21:00:28  <Elukka> i think path signals should get a prominent, bigger button than the rest and the tooltip should indicate that they're the best, basic type of signal
21:00:47  <Sigvatr> basically i had one long rail line and wanted multiple trains to be able to use it in either direction, so i extended some parts to have a second line that entered and exited the main line and had enough room for a train to wait if it needed to
21:01:20  <Sigvatr> i didn't know how to make the signals work so if two trains were approaching one another they would either turn around, or just hang
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21:04:41  <andythenorth> oh dear
21:04:48  * andythenorth smells a forum bunfight
21:06:55  <Hyronymus> I smell learning to read clocks
21:07:49  <andythenorth> for moi?
21:08:07  <Terkhen> a fight about what?
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21:08:23  <andythenorth> lighting :D
21:08:29  <andythenorth> my favourite
21:09:36  <Hyronymus> no, for purno, andythenorth
21:09:47  <Terkhen> I foresee a lengthy discussion that achieves nothing, but not a fight
21:09:51  <Hyronymus> typically a digital clock generation
21:10:03  <Hyronymus> I foresee a verdict soon
21:10:06  <Hyronymus> :P
21:10:31  <Terkhen> for a given set, yes
21:10:44  <Terkhen> but probably not for all sets :P
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21:10:59  <Hyronymus> true
21:11:17  <Hyronymus> and frankly I don't mind
21:11:33  <Terkhen> :)
21:11:49  * Terkhen is oblivious to small lighting issues anyways
21:13:55  <Terkhen> good night
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22:28:24  <Wolf01> 'night
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22:40:35  <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23122 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix (23120): Silence GCC warning.
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22:46:41  <Zuu> Thumbs up michi_cc for the NoAI support for your new and interesting feature.
22:47:14  <michi_cc> Zuu: It's not only for my feature. There was no support for refit orders at all.
22:48:17  <Zuu> afaik NoAI also lacks support for timetables which would be interesting for data collection for trip times. But *someone* has to implement it first.
22:48:25  <Zuu> :-)
22:49:35  <michi_cc> And half the order stuff might be broken anyway as it seems to not properly handle implicit orders, but that's something for somebody with more NoAI knowledge.
22:50:26  <Zuu> Hmm, is there more problems with it not hiding away implicit orders than what was just fixed some days/weeks ago?
22:52:12  <michi_cc> At least AIOrder::ResolveOrderPosition is not always taking implicit orders into account, and most of the Set* functions don't even call that function at all.
22:53:11  <Zuu> So using CURENT_ORDER is kind of broken. But not when using explicit order positions?
22:57:12  <michi_cc> The other way around, ResolveOrderPosition does complicated stuff for CURENT_ORDER and exactly nothing for explicit positions.
22:59:01  <michi_cc> And as far as I can see all Cmd* functions take the order offset including implicit orders.
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23:01:33  <Zuu> From what I can see, the "complicated stuf" in ResolveOrderPosition will make it so that it return an order position that doesn't include implicit orders.
23:02:45  <Zuu> But you are right that the order position returned by the Resolve function is sent just into DoCommand.
23:03:01  <michi_cc> That would mean it is doing exactly the opposite of what the Cmd*Order functions want, the offset into the Order* list in memory, which of course includes implicit orders.
23:03:42  <Zuu> Indeed
23:11:29  <Zuu> The bug can however not be in ResolveOrderPosition, as it is available to AIs through the API and should thus return indexes without implicit orders.
23:12:02  <Zuu> I was wondering if the DoCommand thing in NoAI would do the conversion there, but I can't find any such thing.
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23:20:15  <frosch123> Zuu: do you think any ai modifies exisiting orders of vehicles?
23:20:38  <frosch123> or do they rather assign them only once after purchase?
23:22:32  <Zuu> I don't even have this problem as I always use non-stop orders.
23:23:29  <Zuu> If they use more than two stations in their order list they might insert or remove orders over time.
23:23:36  <Zuu> PAXLink does this.
23:25:07  <Zuu> I wrote a class which models a order list (with only a subset of all possible features) but with the posibility to Apply this model to a vehicle in a way that current order doesn't get changed unless that station has been removed.
23:25:57  <Zuu> So yes, some AIs does that.
23:26:20  <Zuu> But I would guess that AIs written by experienced (O)TTD players use non-stop orders.
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23:54:09  <frosch123> night
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